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Interview Only w/ Andy Lack - Rebuilding Newsrooms In The Deep South · The Chuck ToddCast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: you by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about Medicare
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere. And you're
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: skeptical of that, as you should be. I get it.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: over exactly this. Companies that branded themselves as unbiased while
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: as some sort of broker. So if your default is
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: reason I want to tell you about Chapter. They're independent
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Medicare advisors whose entire model is that their advisors are
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: not paid to push any one plan. They're just trying
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to help. Yes, there's compensation that goes with it. but
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: it's across the board is what they're trying to do.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, they're advocating for you.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: who actually goes through your doctors, your prescriptions, your needs,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and then compares them to every single plan available to
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: find the best one that will work for you and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: hopefully save you a couple dollars too. And here's the
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: part that sets chapter apart. They don't disappear once you've
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: been in They will keep advocating for you. They're kind
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: of like almost like a concierge service.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: You're just there.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I need help. You're like customer service. You know, the plan,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: you know, help me navigate this again. So you ever
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: get hit with a wrongful medical bill, they'll help you
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: fight it. They want to stay an advocate for you
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: even after you've done this. So look, I get it.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I think there's all sorts of space. You see a
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: lot of people are throwing themselves in this healthcare space.
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  Speaker 1: What I like about these chapter folks, I've spent time
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: with them. This is a very transparent organization. It is
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Medicare and all of its affiliated stuff can be very confusing.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: The whole point of this is to make this easier
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: and less confusing. Okay, so look, take the skepticism you
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: already have in all of this, point it at your
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: own plan for 20 minutes. It's free. There's no pressure.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: And then call chapter today at 980-734-4255. 3-9-8-5 Well, joining
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  Speaker 1: me now is a longtime friend of mine, an old boss, technically,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: not more than technically. You know, the joke I always
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: had is whoever signs your expense form is your boss.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Andy was more than that. It's Andy Lack, twice the
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  Speaker 1: chairman of NBC News. But I'm having him on today
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  Speaker 1: because he's been a pioneer in local journalism, particularly his
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  Speaker 1: his I guess you would call it your your it's
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  Speaker 1: not a home state. Mississippi, but it's a home state
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  Speaker 1: for the original lax that made their way into America.
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  Speaker 1: And Mississippi Today, which is a nonprofit local news powerhouse
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  Speaker 1: in the state of Mississippi these days, winning a Pulitzer
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  Speaker 1: in its 10th year. And here you are. And look,
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  Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, but what were you trying
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  Speaker 1: to do when you started this? And is it better
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  Speaker 1: than you expected?
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  Speaker 2: It is better than I expected. It was all that
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  Speaker 2: I hoped for. But backing up, I started because, and
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  Speaker 2: you know this approach well, I wanted to give back
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  Speaker 2: to my home state. It was where my grandparents immigrated
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  Speaker 2: to from Eastern Europe. It's a familiar story for many
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  Speaker 2: Americans at the turn of the last century or the
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  Speaker 2: 19th century.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, but many of our Jewish ancestors didn't end up
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  Speaker 1: in Mississippi.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, they were in the they were peddlers. And
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  Speaker 2: they peddled up. as many Jewish families did, little bits
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  Speaker 2: of cloth and shards of cotton. And as you know,
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  Speaker 2: you go down the Mississippi and you'll find a lot
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  Speaker 2: of cotton. And back in, well, my great-grandfather arrived in Greenville,
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  Speaker 2: Mississippi in 1878 and passed away in the early part
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  Speaker 2: of the 1905, something like that. So my family roots
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  Speaker 2: are deep in Mississippi. And I grew up with cousins
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  Speaker 2: and aunts and uncles saying, you know, you're not from
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  Speaker 2: New York. You're not from there, boy. You're from the South.
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  Speaker 2: You go back and give back to your people in
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  Speaker 2: the South, young man. And I, at You know how
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  Speaker 2: it works. At a certain point in your career, you
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  Speaker 2: have the flexibility and a little money to do it.
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  Speaker 2: And so I went back, well, literally 12 years ago
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  Speaker 2: to try to raise money. I had always gone back
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  Speaker 2: there once every year or two because I loved it.
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  Speaker 2: The culture, the politics, the Delta, which is where my
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  Speaker 2: hometown is. You can't beat those places. They're historic and beautiful.
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  Speaker 1: What's your theory as to why Mississippi produces some of
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  Speaker 1: our best writers? I mean, even to this day, right? Like,
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  Speaker 1: you know, in the sports world or in the cultural world.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, what is it about Mississippi, the experience of
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  Speaker 1: growing up there and visiting that produces this sort of
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  Speaker 1: intellectual firepower that comes out of Mississippi?
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  Speaker 2: It is a cultural thing. Writing. poetry, and music. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: the Delta blues, it's in the dirt. It's in the
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  Speaker 2: soil of the place. It has a very complicated history
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  Speaker 2: with civil rights, as we know, really sad patches of
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  Speaker 2: horrible violence in the state. And it still struggles with
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  Speaker 2: who it is, how it operates. When I say struggles,
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  Speaker 2: that is to say politically on some levels it struggles. Culturally, no.
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  Speaker 2: It's still the Mississippi you'd know and will know 50
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  Speaker 2: years from now. Musically, and as I say, culturally, politically,
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  Speaker 2: it's a deep red state. Uh, but there are, uh,
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  Speaker 2: there are openings, uh, but the democratic party has been
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  Speaker 2: gone for about 20, 25 years in Mississippi.
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  Speaker 1: So, um, you know, it's, what's interesting to me about
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  Speaker 1: Mississippi politically, and I have a, to a lesser extent,
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  Speaker 1: I lump South Carolina into there because when you look
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  Speaker 1: at the South and you look at African-American populations in
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  Speaker 1: the South, Both South Carolina and Mississippi, you know, you
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  Speaker 1: describe Mississippi as deep red and South Carolina is described
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  Speaker 1: by many of us as deep red. And yet when
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  Speaker 1: you actually look at the census, you're like, well, demographically,
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  Speaker 1: neither of these states should be deep red. But there
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  Speaker 1: is the disconnect, particularly in Mississippi. And I think you
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  Speaker 1: can probably speak to this really well, really is in
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  Speaker 1: with I always I described as a rural problem for Democrats,
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  Speaker 1: and the same problem they have with rural whites, they
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  Speaker 1: actually have with rural blacks. That it really is a,
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  Speaker 1: the Democratic Party just doesn't know how to talk to
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  Speaker 1: rural America, whether the voter's white or black. Is that
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  Speaker 1: your experience in Mississippi?
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  Speaker 2: That's fair to say. Oh, gosh. Jackson, the capital city,
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  Speaker 2: most people don't know the capital of Mississippi is Jackson.
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  Speaker 2: And Jackson has the densest black population in the country,
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  Speaker 2: the city of Jackson. And the state is very much
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  Speaker 2: as it has been for the last 50 years. Not
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  Speaker 2: much has changed in terms of the rural complexity of
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  Speaker 2: the area. It's still dirt poor in the Delta. And
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  Speaker 2: I guess I'd say... that folks are starting to break
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  Speaker 2: out of it. The one thing that Mississippi has improved in,
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  Speaker 2: and it's at the bottom in most categories in health care,
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  Speaker 2: but in education, particularly in early education, it has made
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  Speaker 2: some big moves and is improving. And a lot of
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  Speaker 2: private money. I'm fortunate enough to have partners who helped
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  Speaker 2: me start Mississippi Today, the Barksdale family, Jim and Donna Barksdale.
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  Speaker 1: They're like- He's been a big part of this reading
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  Speaker 1: improvement too, hasn't he?
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  Speaker 2: Huge. He created something called, in fact, the Reading Institute
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  Speaker 2: in Mississippi. And that's made a difference. So it is education.
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  Speaker 2: We still have what they call the brain drain. So
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  Speaker 2: we lose a lot of the good people that come
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  Speaker 2: out of Jackson, Jackson State, Ole Miss. There's a fine
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  Speaker 2: business school, the Trent Lott, you know that name well,
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  Speaker 2: school of business in Oxford. Education is improving. The Barksdales
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  Speaker 2: actually have contributed $ 100 million to education, public education in
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  Speaker 2: the state. So that's a bright spot. And I'm hopeful
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  Speaker 2: on that basis that generationally Mississippi is coming of age
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  Speaker 2: now in a way that's stronger than it has been 30, 40,
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  Speaker 2: the last 30, 40 years. That's a big story for
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  Speaker 2: the state. Education is stronger. But the brain drain, we're
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  Speaker 2: losing young people in the state. And the politics is
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  Speaker 2: still a locked in, has a locked in grip.
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  Speaker 1: It still feels like a state that's stuck in its past. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And doesn't want to, right? And that's well said. No
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  Speaker 1: governor would say that. They all want to believe that
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  Speaker 1: they're not stuck in the past. And yet, That's how
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  Speaker 1: they campaign.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that is it. I think you nailed it.
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  Speaker 2: And when Barack Obama, the president, said in his latest
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  Speaker 2: 30-second commercial, come on, Mississippi, you can do it. We
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  Speaker 2: can get things done there because there are signs that
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  Speaker 2: things can get done there in education, in health care,
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  Speaker 2: in social services. But it was interesting to me, you
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  Speaker 2: would have a view of this, that politically he took
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  Speaker 2: the time to even do that.
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  Speaker 1: It's you know, it's funny. The Mississippi is one of
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  Speaker 1: those states that needs a little bit of TLC year round.
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  Speaker 1: And the problem is every time they you know, it's
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  Speaker 1: like what happened with Presley in the governor's race. Scott,
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  Speaker 1: call him here. You see a poll and you're like, hey,
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  Speaker 1: this race is winnable. It's too bad we haven't invested
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  Speaker 1: time and energy in a get out the vote or
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  Speaker 1: voter registration, et cetera, et cetera. And then every two
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  Speaker 1: years they're going, boy, if we had just started sooner,
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  Speaker 1: maybe this could have been, you know, and they just
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  Speaker 1: keep repeating the pattern. Now, eventually it'll break, right? We're
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  Speaker 1: watching that, I think, in Texas for the first time.
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  Speaker 1: There's this different, now you have candidates are meeting voters
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  Speaker 1: where they are. They're not begging voters to come to them.
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  Speaker 1: I still think part of the problem in Mississippi is
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  Speaker 1: Democrats keep asking voters to come to their side rather
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  Speaker 1: than necessarily meet voters where they're at.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's right. Right.
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  Speaker 1: We know that the most successful Southern Democratic politicians have
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  Speaker 1: been populist in their core, Bill Clinton being a big
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  Speaker 1: one to that, frankly, Ray Mabus in Mississippi. And and
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  Speaker 1: they made that they didn't lose. They didn't lose sign
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  Speaker 1: of that. They didn't lose track of that. I think
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  Speaker 1: out of losing so often, you see some Democrats now
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  Speaker 1: getting that message. But I don't know if it's a
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  Speaker 1: permanent change in their mind.
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  Speaker 2: I say I'm I'm. Well, I'm hopeful, as black folks say,
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  Speaker 2: not necessarily optimistic, but I'm hopeful, but I'm hopeful for
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  Speaker 2: good reasons. And I see it in the region. You know,
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  Speaker 2: Mississippi today now has expanded into Louisiana. We're in New Orleans.
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  Speaker 2: We're in Lafayette, Louisiana. We're going into Arkansas. We're going
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  Speaker 2: to Little Rock. We're going to- Are you sticking.
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  Speaker 1: To the Delta, basically, wherever the Delta is? Is that
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  Speaker 1: the premise or low outside?
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  Speaker 2: We're going to the capital cities. Okay. first and foremost.
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  Speaker 2: But we always choose one other city. For example, in Tennessee,
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  Speaker 2: we're going into Tennessee in 27. We're opening up shop.
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  Speaker 2: We've already begun in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And Chattanooga and Nashville
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  Speaker 2: will be our pair. In Mississippi, it's Jackson and For
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  Speaker 2: my money, still Oxford and the Delta on the sidelines.
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  Speaker 2: In New Orleans, as I said, it's very, again, two places.
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  Speaker 2: And we're going into Baton Rouge at the beginning of 27.
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  Speaker 2: And we're going to do the famous road from Jackson
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  Speaker 2: to Montgomery and open up Alabama, all part of a
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  Speaker 2: network of newsrooms called Deep South Today. So that is
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  Speaker 2: where I think for the first time, And I'm seeing
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  Speaker 2: this in the states that you've talked about more naturally
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  Speaker 2: in South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia. Information is power. And
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  Speaker 2: young folks are getting better educations, getting more involved in
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  Speaker 2: the politics and a sense of community. That's so important
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  Speaker 2: to local news, which, you know, that that love of place,
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  Speaker 2: that understanding we need you to come home again and
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  Speaker 2: we need you to invest here in this place, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama.
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  Speaker 2: That's the heart of it for me in Tennessee. If
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  Speaker 2: we can get that into a virtuous circle and journalism
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  Speaker 2: is really at the heart of it, holding power to
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  Speaker 2: account in the state legislatures, in the healthcare areas, and
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: all across the board, that I think you're going to
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  Speaker 2: see real improvement in the next decade.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you were sort of on the early side
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: of this, right? You know, we were in this sort
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: of There's a lot of lamenting that goes on. I'm
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: sort of I'm over lamenting. I mean, like, look, oh,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: it's oh, the network says so the good old days.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: I'm teaching a class on the history of media and
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: political polarization.
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  Speaker 2: And right.
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  Speaker 1: And essentially, Andy, I'm, you know, I'm reminding them that
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  Speaker 1: the good old days that your parents and grandparents talk
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: about in the media was actually an era of of
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: American governance where we did more censorship of media than
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: we ever had. You know, government did decide who got
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: access to the airwaves. And I promise you, if you
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: tried to bring that back, there'd be a full-on revolt, right?
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  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, I actually think Ben Franklin, if
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: he was reincarnated and came back, he would find the
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: current era of our crazy fragmented information ecosystem to actually
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: look familiar. The technology may be different. But it would
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: look like the penny press. It would look like, you know.
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  Speaker 2: What's happening.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: And yes, it would be ideological. And yes, there would
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: be terrible news organizations that would do character assassination. What
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: do you think the New York Post was founded on?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Like, you know, it was it's founded. It's like the
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: New York Post is home to character assassination.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: It was founded on character assassination.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Like it was and is sort of part of what
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: it is.
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  Speaker 2: And.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I sort of see this as a golden
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: age to restart and we're rebuilding a new mainstream media,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: as I like to say. Hey, Life Magazine used to
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: be mainstream media and then our technology changed and we
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: wanted moving pictures. That doesn't mean Life, we shouldn't lament
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: the good old days of when Life Magazine could unite
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the country. We always, we're actually always changing and the
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: story's always the same. I feel like we're still in
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: a growth period in local and there's simultaneously a skepticism
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: about whether local can succeed. You've been on the nonprofit
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: side of things. What is your formula for success and
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: what's replicatable and what isn't, do you think?
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Well, you've covered a lot of ground in that in
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: the last few moments, but you really did frame it well.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: And in nonprofit journalism, Where I'm looking at investing and
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: we're building something we call Deep South Today Studios is
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: around video. We are in the age of video. We
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: are in the age of podcasts like this one that
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: have real influence, particularly with young folks. And so that
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: age of video, when you think of it in terms of, okay,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: a TikTok video, what's that? 14 seconds, 21 seconds less,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: or you talk about what I call my new favorite program,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: not 60 minutes, but let's do 20 minutes. Let's do
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: three stories in 20 minutes. for an audience that gets
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: a 12-minute profile, a three-minute TikTok, a four-minute cultural musical
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: assessment of the hot musician in town, and look towards
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: a digital world with video as the base law. YouTube
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: is the biggest platform in the world, Chuck. YouTube. You know,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: not NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox News. It's YouTube. And everybody
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: can be a star on YouTube. Hold on. That maybe
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: doesn't sound like a great idea to be lost on YouTube.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: But the reality is you can find audiences. And the
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: networks are using YouTube and platforms like that, Threads, Reddit.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: You go through them. That's the new age that we're in.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: And that's a level of reaching audiences for what you
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: and I do as journalists, and particularly video journalists.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Very exciting. We're in that age. You're very platform. I mean,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: it sounds to me, I mean, as people say, what's
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: the best platform? I'm like, there isn't one. You have
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: to be everywhere.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you do. But it's not hard to be everywhere. No,
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: I agree. You know, everybody can get a microphone and
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: get into a conversation like we're in.
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  Speaker 1: pairs of shorts from Quince and, you know, the shorts
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: are both warm. They're kind of khaki, but they're kind
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: of not. They're just easy to wear. I'm wearing a
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: pair of those shorts right now as I'm taping this podcast.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: So when it comes to gifting, Quince is a lot
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: more than clothing too. By the way, they've got fine jewelry,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: leather bags, hotel quality bedding. chef-grade cookware. People love a
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: nice piece of equipment to play with in the kitchen
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: these days. Five-star luggage. Plenty of ways to find something
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: special for everyone on your list. So give the gift
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. You get free shipping
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: on your order, 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: about them, please let them know it was the Chuck
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Todd cast. It's the best way to support the show
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: and the best way to make sure you're getting every discount. Andy,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: the other day when I was getting on a plane,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I had a woman say, oh, I just was watching
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: you on TikTok. And I'm like, you know, and, you know,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I don't have I only have my my podcast is
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: a TikTok account. I still haven't done a personal one.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I have my own. you know, concerns about it, but
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I'm also know a lot of people are going there.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, I'm not going
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: to be a platform snob and you don't know where
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: you're going to reach people. And, you know, the other
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: thing that I've learned is don't assume some, just because
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: you've said something once or reported something once that it's
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: broken through. And I think that this is the hardest
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: thing for journalists to, I think, overcome is this idea
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: that you have to repeat yourself.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: It is like, you know, I mean, we used to
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: be that way. Well, we had that first and we
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: used to think there was something to that. Does it
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: matter whether you had it first or does it matter
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: that you're the most trusted person somebody founded at first?
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: OK, you just said the key word trust. How do
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: you build trust in communities? Again, local news that you
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: can lay that foundation in your community, city to city,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: state to state. that you are to be trusted, that
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the facts matter, opinions are clearly stated and offered as such,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: an opinion, a viewpoint. Therein, I think, lies the tale
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: of how we're recruiting at least young journalists into the
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: spaces we're talking about, onto the platforms that we're talking about.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: We're almost up to 100 journalists now in those four states.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: 100 reporters. I love the word reporter.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: How important is it that the ownership structure is not
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: part of some corporation, right? How important is it that
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: you're not another Gannett organization?
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I don't mean that to trash Gannett. I mean, I
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: just think we're in an era where there's skepticism of
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: corporate America, hard stop. Doesn't matter whether it's corporate America
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: for AI, tech data centers or whatever, right?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: That's such an important point you're making. And that's why
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: we're a non-profit. We're not reliant on advertisers and corporations
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: to support the good work we're trying to do. We're
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: relying on nonprofit funders. So, yeah, you're right. we'd like
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: you to belong to the member circle, and that'll cost
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: you $ 500, $ 1, 000 a year with the golden circle. But
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: that money, for us, it's deductible for the donor, 30% non-profit.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And for us, it's our lifeline. That's how we build
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: community as honest brokers of information, because they don't think
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: we're beholden to anyone other than the work we're doing,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: to tell it the way we see it. And I'm
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: having some success, particularly recording, excuse me, recruiting people out
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: of universities now, like Arkansas, like West Virginia, like Maryland.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I'm going around to those schools and I'm getting people.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I'm sure you found, I didn't know
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: this until I went there, that the University of Arkansas
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: is one of the largest journalism schools in America.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And a stunning amount. And how many of these kids frankly,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: are going into sports journalism because they're not sure there's
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: jobs over here. And I keep saying, hey, no, no, no, no.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: The best time to get involved is right now because
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: there's disruption.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: You're at USC, aren't you, in Washington?
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: I'm doing USC, yeah.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: I was just out at USC in L.A. Looking for
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: recruits to go down south. And in fact, you know
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Jeffrey Cowan, who was at the Annenberg School out there.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: He came down south to the Mississippi 10th celebration. And
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: the point is, the story is in every state. But
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: what I love in terms of our background and sensibility
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: around politics and culture There are so many states that
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: have underserved markets for news and information, and they want it.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: They're hungry for it. Please, I say this. You know
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: how I know local news is something we desire? Because
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: we share everything that's happening around us anyway. We clearly
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: care about what's happening around us. We're all a little
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: bit narcissistic. That's OK. Lean into it. We'll call it
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: local news. Let's shift gears here. What would you be
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: doing if you were running a network now in the
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: face of skepticism about network ownership, skepticism about big institutions.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: There are plenty of good brands worth saving, whether it's
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Meet the Press, 60 Minutes, Good Morning America, Today Show.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: You know, I have my own theory of that the
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: brands will survive. I don't know if they'll be owned
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: by the same entities 10 years from now. I think,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: I think we could see a variety of things. I
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: like to remind people, meet the press started as a
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: advertisement for American Mercury magazine. That doesn't mean it won't
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: someday be owned by another publisher of some sort. Like,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: you know, brands are sometimes bigger and can last longer
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: than their owners. Um, But, you know, it's not easy.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of more empathy. People like to
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: trash Barry Weiss or trash Rebecca or trash. And I'm like, hey, man,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: this is not an easy there. You know, we were
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: there for tough periods. This is an even harder one
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: different because of you've got bosses that don't want you
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: to be. Don't get too much attention.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: Don't bring the spotlight on us. I think it's a
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: challenging environment. What would you be doing?
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: Well, it is a challenging environment, but I have to
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: say it was ever thus. I tend to be lucky
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: in media because I get my jobs because of some
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: screw up before I showed up.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Well, isn't that how we all get the jobs? We
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: get the big jobs. Somebody messed it up before us.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I think you said it well.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: I think There are, Meet the Press is a great example.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: It's the oldest show on television, right? Literally the oldest
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: program on television. And while I miss Chuck Todd at
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Meet the Press, our friend Kristen Welker is doing a
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: great job. And it lives. It lives on.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: It is going to live. I really believe that. Now,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: everything has to evolve and you have to make sure
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: you don't allow it to atrophy and die. But it
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: is a brand. I feel that way about the Today Show.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: I feel that way about Good Morning America. I just
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen to these larger entities.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: What happens to NBCUniversal? What happens to Disney and ABC?
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: I think they're not going away in the short term.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: That's for sure. They're not going away in the next
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: five years. They're not, not from where I'm sitting because
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: they're still getting strong audiences.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Does it not remind you of nineties radio?
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: You're like, there's still a, there's still a lot of
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: money to be made and there's still a big audience
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: in radio, but you know where the trend line is.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. And, So what's the new trend line? I
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: think the word is streaming, that networks will become streaming services.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: We won't call them necessarily networks anymore, but there'll be
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: brands on those streaming services. There'll be all kinds of
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: variations on new language in a digital world. But video
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: is still.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Do you envision, I've said this, I think there is
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: going to be a, there'll be a big three or
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: a big four, but it might be Netflix, Amazon, YouTube,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: you know, Paramount Discovery. I don't know what they're going
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: to call their, you know, big thing, you know, that
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: it's that. And within those platforms, might be fast channels
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: and all sorts of other ways that, that brands organize themselves.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The tech grows as they're called the big seven,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: the Facebooks.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: The magnificent seven Bezos, you know.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: They give me pause as owners of the world we
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: love so much, news and information, journalism. I just did
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: an interview for the 10th anniversary in Jackson with Kara Swisher,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: a great tech journalist. And she's optimistic about just what
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: you said. We'll find the platforms. We'll have the brands.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: We're going to move forward. but don't trust those tech bros.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: They are a new corporate. Yeah.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, we, do you feel like we all misread
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Bezos or did we, was he a Rorschach test for people?
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: I don't really know. I, I, He went from savior
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: to villain, you know, pretty fast. I don't know if
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: he's either. And I say this with like, I don't,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: I don't, you know, I don't know fully what motivates him.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: We all, people have ideas and I'm always careful of motive.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I think the big three are still hanging in there,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: strongly hanging in there. I think the Washington Post is
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: doing good work.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: They are that newsroom.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: They're smaller. They're nibbler. They gave up on local, but
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: they're doing good stuff.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: They're doing good work. Obviously, the New York Times is
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: obviously the Wall Street Journal is. Those were the three
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: major newspapers I grew up with in life. But. Are
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: there Deep South Todays? Are there Chuck Todd's podcasts? Are
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: there so many different new outlets that are reimagining the
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: work that was what we called local newspapers? Local newspapers,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: that platform, It gets smaller and smaller. But it's replaced
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: by as many journalists, I think, working on new platforms.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: That's what I see. I haven't had trouble or hard
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: time raising money. in the nonprofit space. And I think
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: at any given point with what you're doing, what we
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: see at the local station level in television markets, there's
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: good journalism going on. And I'm excited about that. I
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: think for me, it was easier to do it in
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: the nonprofit space than in the for-profit space.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Well, look, I believe there's not one answer. And I
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: kind of think we have to their pieces, I think
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: different communities have the ability to support for-profits versus non-profits, right?
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it just, it depends. If you ask me what's
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the ideal ownership structure of a news organization, I always
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: point to the Green Bay Packers, right? In theory, I
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: want a community owned where it's impossible to sell. The
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: brilliance of the Packers they weren't the first sports franchise
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: to issue shares of stock in order to raise money
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: in a community. They were the first ones to make
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: it impossible for you to sell your shares. And so
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: they prevented, what they did is, and it is, and
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: so Green Bay is saved. The irony is the NFL
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: won't ever allow another Green Bay to happen. They have
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: actually banned that, like Green Bay is grandfathered in as
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: an ownership structure. They don't want that ever again. And yet,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: What did it do? It protected a community. It allowed
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: a community to thrive. And so I do think it's
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: the ideal. Now, I think we're a long way from that, right?
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: I think different communities can get there on different ways.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: But I am curious what you think. You really understand
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: the local news market and you understand television affiliates. I
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: think the next great shakeup in local news is on
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: the television affiliate side. And we're going to see this
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: massive amount of churn. Some are going to disappear and
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: some are going to become huge local regional brands on
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: their own when they're allowed to, right? Right now, a
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: lot of them are part of larger enterprises. What do
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: you expect to happen in these medium-sized markets in particular?
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking your Kansas City, your New Orleans, your Little Rocks.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Will it be three affiliates? Will it be one affiliate?
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Will it be five affiliates? What's your sense of what
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: happens when this affiliate structure begins to collapse from the
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: network structure we grew up with?
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Well, they may be affiliated in different entities and in
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: different structures, but the content of what they're producing will
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: be what we know it today. And really, you know,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: in the local station world, sports and weather, that's what
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: moves it. That's the way it works. In our world,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: the serious journalism will have some sports, some weather, some culture,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: but it will really be focused on holding power to account,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: hard reporting. And that's a skill set that local television stations,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: by and large, have moved away from more than.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I would like. Do you see yourself almost in partner?
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, like there's a part of me
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: that says competition is great. And when you're competing for scoops,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: you're competing, there's something to it. I'm a free market guy.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: I get it. I think competition matters. But then there
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: are certain things that, hey, maybe you guys are better
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: at covering Jackson than any affiliate in Biloxi is ever
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: going to be. But Biloxi is really good at covering Biloxi.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Maybe they're really good at covering the casino industry. And
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: maybe there's, you know, is... Do you see a world
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: that's better in partnership or in competition in the local
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: marketplace these days?
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I think technology is changing how these partnerships work with
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: each other. Everybody's got a camera in their pocket. Everybody.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Everybody's got video in their pocket. How station affiliates for
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: networks as we've known them... reorganize themselves around journalism, sports, culture.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: You're buying the rights. Don't forget, that's what really is
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: the underpinning of the Disneys and the big five that
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: we've known in network television and in the entertainment world,
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: now with Paramount. They own rights to sports, to professional sports,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: to televise that. They own rights to artists and music
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: and entertainment and producing that. In the news business, that's
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: where I think you're seeing the changes we're talking about.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: In the news business, I don't know where CNN goes
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: in a larger formation of assets.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: I assume that CBS and look, the cynic in me,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: and I'm not even being that cynical about this, I
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: assume that when Trump leaves the stage and 2029 comes around, Skydance,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: whatever it's called, is going to decide, these news assets
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: aren't growth assets. I've got a lot of debt. I
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: need to pay down my debt. I'm going to sell
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: CBS News and CNN as one package to some vanity billionaire.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: If that happens by 2030, I wouldn't be surprised.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Listen, our big boss at one point, Brian Roberts,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: when we were at NBC together in podcast, news was
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: not a priority on his agenda. He respected NBC news.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: He was proud of it.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: By the way, I joke.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: It wasn't as a business matter.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Andy, I will tell you a lesson I took away
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: from both Jeff Immelt and Brian Roberts.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: If I ever hear the words crown jewel- I know
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I'm being buried in the basement or stuck in the attic.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: You only use crown jewel to describe something that you're
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: nostalgic about and you want to protect. You don't describe
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: crown jewel to something you want to grow and innovate with.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: And the irony is that that is what Brian Roberts
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: once described NBC News at. And in hindsight, that should
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: have been a warning to us, not a reassurance.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: You know, things change. And we, particularly we journalists, know that.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: What I love about what we're doing here today that
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: doesn't change is actually this platform that we're on, the
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: technology around that is empowering. And I do believe that
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: we will see new companies, new organizations. Yeah. emerge in
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: ways that we're still doing the basic, you know, I
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: got a reporter's notebook here.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: You know, and I'm still writing it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: That never changes. It never changes.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: This is it, bro.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: One of the.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Things that people don't fully appreciate about you is that
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: you really, you think about how to create an event
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: that can convene people, whether it's to put on a
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: substantive debate, do the specials you've done at PBS, where
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: you got a couple of Supreme Court justices to participate,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: which in and of itself is amazing. I think about
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: political debate, right? This cycle, we have fewer debates than
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: we had last cycle, and we're going to have fewer
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: debates probably in the foreseeable future. Some of this is
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: media distrust. Some of this is political polarization. Some of
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: this is, frankly, I think our own arrogance in the
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: media space, meaning if they don't do it, if we
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: don't do the debate the way we've always done the debate,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: then we can't be bothered. And I understand why campaigns
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: don't want to take five days off the trail to
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: prepare for a debate because they've got to do this.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: I've been trying to think of new ways to create
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: a modern debate that frankly accomplishes what you want to
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: accomplish for the voter, which is give the voter a side-by-side.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: The voter wants to see the side-by-side. I've got some
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: proposals about creating a social media sort of ongoing debate
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: three minutes a day, 90 seconds on each side, and
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: they just go back and forth, and it's a new
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: video every day. And you, the local news organizer, you're
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: the convener, you're the ones picking the issues, you're the
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: ones asking the question. So it's the same, but ultimately,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: who are you serving? If you're trying to serve the voter,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: then you need to figure out how to make the
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: debate consumable for them, not force everybody to come on
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: your turf. So I enter with a little bit of
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: humility here of figuring out I do think we have
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: to reimagine political debate for the 21st century. But it's
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: no less important. When I want to know, I want
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: to know the school board. I don't know these candidates.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: I'd love to just hear them in 90 seconds answer
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: this one question. That should be quickly available for everybody.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: That should be available. That's what local news should be
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: among the things that they should be doing. I know
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: you think about how do we get more political debate,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: not less. What do you think needs to be tried
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: that hasn't? What are some ideas you've thought of? What
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: are you pursuing these days?
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Well, I gave you a small preview of it. We're
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: creating something called Deep South Today Studios. That is just
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: about creating the kind of video that you were describing. Mm-hmm.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: you'll remember from 60 minutes days, one of the most
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: popular segments was point counterpoint.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: And they got rid of it. They got rid of
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: it by the time. Yeah. Well, you were there when
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: they got rid of it. Why'd they get rid of it?
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Everything gets a little tired. I think the, I forget
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: their names. I can't believe I am who are the
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: point counterpoint, but they had aged out a bit.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Is this when it became Andy Rooney?
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, a few minutes with Andy Rooney followed point-counterpoint. And
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: then lovingly to Andy, he aged out. So the reality
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: is that video is the word, and news is the word, information, journalism,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: and the component are... Who are you casting? It's really
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: all about who's the moderator, who is the moderator interviewing,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: who are the two people who are talking to each other.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Can you ensure for the viewer that this is going
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: to be worth their time? We know how to do this.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: We will not allow this exchange, this debate, this disagreement
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: be a false narrative for your experience. Because the choices
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: we're making and the reason you're coming to us is
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: because you believe we're doing that good work first. And
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: it comes back to that word trust. Oh, yeah, I
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: know who Chuck Todd is. I've known Chuck for quite
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: a while, going back to meet the press days. I
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: trust him. So this is a production brought to you
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: by Chuck Todd. Oh, OK. This is where in a
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: state he knows or a place he knows or on
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: a platform that he's created or that he's sharing with
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: other colleagues, Substack, that whole, those distribution points. There's audience there.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: There's value for everybody involved. And it's affordable for everybody involved.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: You can make it work for all the right reasons.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: I think they will evolve. And the word streaming will
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: own these new brands that are coming forward. And I
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: don't know whether they'll still be the peacock and the
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: eye and the, I don't know those famous logos. I
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: don't know. And I honestly, who can tell at this point,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: because we've reached a new wave of, of technology and media.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: That my 19 year old, you say the words channel
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: four to my 19 year old, he'd be like, what
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: the hell does that mean?
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: So, you know, and he's well aware he's heard of NBC.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: But the idea that these are channels, he's never experienced
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: a world where channels existed.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: It's such an arcane word if you've never heard of it. Yeah.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: And he knows video, and he knows his iPad or
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: whatever he's using. And we know that as TV or
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: television or whatever you want to call it. But I
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: don't think the ingredients that make it so appealing and
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: ease of use is changing. I lost you. Yes.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Give me one second.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: I had a quick disruption. Five minutes.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: And then are you coming back here? Oh, you guys
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: are coming back, right?
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Sorry about that, Lauren. My son's been visiting and he
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: was about to leave and I didn't know if he
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: was coming back before he went to school.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: No worries. No worries.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: That's the beauty about it.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: When you have a studio in your house, Andy, right?
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Anybody can walk in.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: It's a good, I'm telling you, it's a good looking studio.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I'm very impressed.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate it. Let me get you out of
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: here on this.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: AI.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: I think the way the consumer's going to behave is
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: they're going to gravitate towards live. They're going to gravitate towards,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: because that's harder to manipulate and all this stuff. But
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know that for sure. I know that that's
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: in my head, I think, live, in person, that ultimately
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: that that's going to have a premium, that the written
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: word won't have a premium the way it used to
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: and things like that. I am concerned about those things,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: but it's just going to happen. We know this in
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: some form. That's right. What are you not lamenting about
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: AI and just marching forward? And what concerns you the
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: most about AI in journalism?
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Well, this conversation that I just did with Kara Swisher
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: was called AI and the Search for Truth. And that's
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: a work in progress. I think most people don't know that,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: in fact, AI, all of the tech giants have known
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: about AI 10, 15 years ago. it's finally arrived in the, uh,
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: in the way that we've now discovered in last year,
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: it is super intelligence. It's not artificial intelligence. And it
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: was named that years ago, but regardless of what you,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: how you want to describe it, uh, I think it
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: is dangerous. We don't know what we don't know about
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: how AI agents get released. Um, these digital bits, how
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: our children are relating to chatbots in a world that
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: AI can export these relationships that, as Bill Gates said
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: in this essay he wrote, maybe you saw it, I
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: think it was like a 6,000-word essay, that can kill millions.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: That's what danger really means with AI. It's that threat.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: And so I look at it understanding that we are
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: on the brink of something really new that we have
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: to grapple with. And it needs to be, I dare say,
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: I hate using this word, regulated. We need, whether it's
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: community to community, local government to local government, state to state,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: state capitals and on up to the food chain. We
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: need to regulate it. And obviously, senators and congressmen, they're
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: going to get into that game.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: But AI is- Did you think they were going to
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: regulate social media? And they never did.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: No. But this is exponentially a real punch in the face.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: It's bigger than we knew it. But algorithms, all these
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: words we've all come to be comfortable with algorithmically, what
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: AI is going to produce is something we had no
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: idea when we were talking about social media back in
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: the 90s. So I think it is the biggest story
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: in the country, and it ought to be.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: The data centers, you've seen the anger on the local level.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: They're all over Mississippi, Louisiana, the South. Right.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: What do you say to the communities that say, well,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: you know what? It's brought a ton of investment, and
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: this part of it is good. When you go to
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: the local level, it isn't as the most unpopular thing,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: and all the polling is being in favor of a
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: data center in your local community. I know the polling,
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: but there is more nuance to it than folks realize.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: You're on the ground level there. What's the best way
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: you've seen tech interact with local communities and what's some
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: of the worst examples?
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Well, there's this tough number out there that 73% of
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: Americans are fearful of data centers and AI. and what
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: it means to their families and their livelihoods. They're losing jobs.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: So what I'm seeing is that fear. I'm seeing anxiety.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: I'm seeing concern. I'm seeing a search for, well, what
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: do you know about it? What do you think about it?
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Help me understand this. In the South, those... Those data
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: centers are exploding, really. I don't mean literally, but they
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: are changing the landscape, shall we say. And folks are
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: rallying around, wait a second, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: So you see in a state like New York, which
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: is a big state, as you know, Kathy Hochul, the governor,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: is saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we're stopping. Time out.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: We're pausing that. And I think we need a pause.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: really nationally, to understand over the next year, what is AI?
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: How is it affecting my community? What's the impact of
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: it financially? There are positives and there are negatives. Yeah,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: we know it's going to be great for curing cancer
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: at some point. But we don't know about, to your point,
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: what it means to me in my community right now
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: and the data center that they're building and how it's
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: going to affect my life.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: One of my most impactful, I was in Dothan, Alabama
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: about a month or so ago interviewing Doug Jones. And
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: data centers were the number one concern in Dothan, Alabama. Okay,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: this is a little bit north of Tallahassee if you're
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: looking where folks want to visualize where I was. And
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: it was interesting. The concern was this, and this I
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: think you'll appreciate. we already have a bunch of empty
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: strip malls after the mall business went underneath. And now,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: you know, and you look and some of these empty
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: storefronts have become churches. Some of them have been turned
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: into high, you know, there's been some reusing, you know,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: I think now if you take an empty strip center
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: and turn it into a data center, right. But I
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: thought the, this was the wisdom of the voter. I
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: always say the voters are much wiser than, than we
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: ever give them credit for. The voter is going, I
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: get it. You need a data center now. But I
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: know in five or 10 years, when you figure out
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: how to put it in space or you need, you know,
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: the massive computer becomes this big and you don't need
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: this space. What are you going to do with this land?
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Are you just going to abandon it? Are we going
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: to have all these empty strip mall data centers all
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: of a sudden? And we're just going to be this
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: pocket of decaying data center infrastructure. And I thought, That's
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: a fair point, because what's the history of technology? How
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: quickly we shrink everything. Server rooms become server closets. Server
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: closets become little... Boxes. Thumb drives, right. And we know
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: that's inevitable with these data centers. Or we're going to
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: put them in space, or we're going to put them
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: on the moon. And you know what? We may think, oh,
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: no big deal if we abandon Altoona, Pennsylvania. But the
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: people on Altoona are like, what the hell are we
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: going to do with this remnant here?
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So it's emerging as the biggest story in
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: people's lives. If it hasn't hit them yet, it will.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: And I do go back to that word. at the
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: state level, at the local level, it needs to be regulated.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: People need to be included in the conversation about what
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: does this mean to us as a community? Who is
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: my neighbor? And what do we owe each other? And
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: that's the fundamental. And the answer is going to emerge.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: But we know the consequences if we don't tackle it now.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: The consequences are dire.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Well, look, you are.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: Expanding into some states that are considered news deserts, Arkansas,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: parts of Tennessee, parts of Louisiana. Obviously, you've been you've
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: been doing that in Mississippi. When do we when should
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: we expect? Give us a tour. When should we expect
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: you to open the doors in Arkansas? And in Tennessee,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: we're going to open the doors in Arkansas.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: Definitely next year. We're we're we're hiring people now. So
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, we're going to we're going to
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: be a little rock and we're going to be in Bentonville.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: We've already gotten space in Bentonville. The Walton Foundation is.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: For Northwest Arkansas. I can't I cannot.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: That is I always say it's good. It's good when
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: your governor becomes president because he will care about your
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: home state. If Bill Clinton doesn't designate an airport for
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: that community in Northwest Arkansas, Walmart and Tyson chicken moved
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: their headquarters to another state and that area is abandoned.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: And instead, I mean, I just think it's, I mean,
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Northwest Arkansas is amazing.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: It's an incredible community.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Uh, you do have to, at least last I did,
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: you kind of fly into Fayetteville and drive, uh, Yeah,
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: all that's changing. All that landscape is changing. And there
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: are successful companies in these states. Arkansas is a good example.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Tyson Foods and Walmart. I think, actually, Northwest Arkansas is
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: going to be interesting to watch in that regard. But
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: all of these states- are on the front lines of
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: it now with data centers. And as I say, I
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: think it's an exciting time, but everybody needs to get involved.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: It's got to be on the ballot. It's got to
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: be in the community centers. It's got to be voted on.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: It's got to be regulated. People need to know what's
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: coming their way. And they get to control it. They
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: get to be a part of those choices. That's what
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: democracy requires.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. The data center story, I think,
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: is helping to remind people why local news is so necessary.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Because it is it is in these local stories that
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: we're finding out about these sweetheart deals or these hidden provisions. And,
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: you know, it is it is it is taken local
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: journalists to who whose own communities have been impacted to, frankly,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: have the have the dedication to go figure it out.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the word that we haven't gotten to as journalists
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: in this conversation, I don't want to end on it,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: but corruption. Where there's a lot of money, there's corruption.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Where there's no visibility into it, there's corruption.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: One of the things I say, the least corrupt legislature
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: in America is Congress because we have a lot of
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: journalists walking the halls.
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: The more local you go, the more corruptible, I'm not
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: saying they're all corrupt, But the more corruptible it is
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: because we're lacking the watchdogs, whether it's in the state
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: capital bureaus or in the local city halls. And this
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: is where these tech companies have taken advantage of that darkness.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: And I think that this is where I think this
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: might be the public doesn't realize this, but they're begging
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: for more local news. So we got you covered. Andy, congratulations.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Chuck. Great to talk to you.