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The Role of Music Leaders in Shaping the Future of the Church— A Conversation with Christopher Dawes · Future Christian

0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host. Loren Richman Junior.
0:33
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is
0:35
Loren Richmond, Junior. In this
0:38
episode, Martha Tatarnic welcomes Christopher
0:41
Dawes, a, uh, Toronto based performer,
0:43
conductor and consultant. A three
0:46
decade fixture of the Toronto music community and
0:49
frequent collaborator with many of its top
0:51
institutions, Christopher currently serves as
0:54
organist and director of music to Rosedale
0:56
Presbyterian Church and artistic director of the
0:59
18 voice Marion Singers of Greater
1:02
Toronto. For two decades, he has served
1:05
as collaborative pianist and coach to the graduate
1:08
and undergraduate instrumental and choral conducting
1:11
programs of the Faculty of Music, University of
1:14
Toronto, and as a director of Canada's Summer
1:17
Institute of Church Music. Since
1:19
2018, he has also chaired the
1:22
executive of the Southern Ontario chapter of the Hymn
1:25
Society of the US and Canada.
1:28
Chris's graduate work in the area of music
1:30
criticism and musical genre has led to
1:33
occasional blogging and podcasting under the
1:36
banner ideas about music,
1:38
speaking at conferences, and eventually founding the
1:41
Celtic Crossover band Crowey in 2013.
1:45
Let's welcome Christopher to the show.
1:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the feature Christian podcast. I am
1:58
your host for the summer season, Martha Taternik,
2:01
and today I am having a
2:03
conversation with Christopher Dawes, a
2:06
longtime friend. We've worked with one another in a
2:09
variety of circles over the years, and
2:12
Chris is also one of the preeminent
2:14
musical leaders in the mainline church in
2:17
Canada today. Welcome to the podcast,
2:20
Chris. It is such a pleasure to get to talk to you
2:23
today.
2:24
>> Christopher Dawes: Thank you, Martha. I am delighted to be here
2:27
and, uh, I'm looking forward to our talk.
2:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thanks. Okay, so you're familiar
2:33
with how our podcast is structured? We're
2:36
going to spend a little bit of time at the outset,
2:39
just kind of painting the picture for
2:42
people, allowing them to get to know you a little bit. Maybe you
2:45
can start by talking for a moment
2:47
about your relationship with the church or with
2:51
Christianity growing up.
2:54
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah. So my grandfather is a figure that I
2:56
derive a lot of, um, a lot of inspiration
2:59
from. His name was Charles Haddon Spurgeon
3:02
Dawes, and he was a minister and a
3:05
musician. He sort of was one of those small town
3:08
ministers that incorporated music into his ministry
3:11
a great deal. When, uh,
3:14
however, my family didn't attend church when I was
3:17
a child, we, um,
3:19
uh, were, uh, connected to my
3:22
grandparents quite closely, but they lived a long way from us.
3:25
And church, uh, was not a part of our life.
3:27
So m like a lot of teenage musicians,
3:30
my piano teacher encouraged me to accept
3:33
a church playing, uh, position, which
3:36
I did.
3:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Okay.
3:38
>> Christopher Dawes: And eventually, uh, when I
3:41
asked her about, um, my
3:44
interest in learning better to play
3:47
the organ in my teenage years, she encouraged
3:50
me to go to a professional teacher,
3:53
um, because she was mainly a pianist. Uh, so
3:56
I ended up at an anglican cathedral. And the, uh,
3:59
rest, as they say, is history. I
4:02
followed that, uh, tradition for quite a long
4:04
time. Uh, and before,
4:08
uh, very long, uh, you get a lot
4:10
of support when you're a young musician, especially around the
4:13
church. I felt a lot of support and I began
4:16
feeling the need to say thank you.
4:19
And where was that thanks going to
4:22
go? Well, clearly it was going to go to God.
4:25
And this was kind of a reconnection with that family
4:28
tradition that, uh, sort of hadn't been sustained in the
4:30
form of a regular church attendance.
4:34
So, uh, anyway, so I, uh, had had
4:37
a very wise person point out to me that my
4:40
name was Christopher, which,
4:42
uh, connected with this, uh, old story of a
4:45
saint who bore Christ unknowingly
4:48
across a river. And so when I
4:51
learned that from this, uh, then bishop of
4:54
the diocese of Ontario, I kind of took it to heart
4:56
and that, uh, was how my journey really
4:59
started.
5:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow, that's amazing. So, um, music
5:03
was definitely kind of the
5:06
evangelical impulse
5:08
or invitation into
5:11
the christian faith for you, it sounds like, along
5:13
with, um, those family roots.
5:16
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah, it was kind of like it was planted there before
5:19
I had an opportunity to be a Christian or,
5:22
uh, in a way, because music certainly was
5:25
what got me in there and, uh, it was just
5:28
waiting for, I guess, God's time to,
5:31
uh, to activate.
5:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's beautiful. Beautifully said.
5:36
Um, so how would you say
5:39
that being a Christian has
5:42
changed for you from,
5:45
um, that first sense
5:48
of wanting to offer, uh, thanks back
5:51
to God to now many
5:54
decades into, uh, the work of
5:57
serving the church.
5:59
>> Christopher Dawes: Yes, well, um, so it did start
6:02
with, uh, that reflex for
6:04
Thanksgiving. But, uh, when I left
6:07
university I had become an organ performance
6:10
major and I packed up a number of musical skills
6:13
with me and went to the big city to, uh, sort of
6:16
make my way. And, uh, as you
6:19
know, in, like in the catholic church,
6:22
the anglican church has this
6:24
structure of diocese which have
6:27
bishops and those bishops hold kind of a
6:30
ceremonial seat in a building called
6:32
cathedral. And that word
6:35
cathedral suggests a lot of traditions for
6:38
liturgy, for theology, for music and so on.
6:41
But at its heart it is a church of
6:44
churches. And before too
6:47
long. Uh, when I moved to Toronto, I
6:49
found myself at St. James Cathedral tomorrow,
6:52
and um, synod meetings and
6:55
a variety of other events through the year
6:58
really, uh, entered our life
7:01
as a church, but as a church, two
7:03
churches. And so there was this much larger
7:06
community that focused in at least a few times a
7:09
year on our cathedral
7:11
too. So, uh, I had an
7:14
amazing opportunity over the twelve years I served St. James with
7:17
ego to sort of explore this diversity.
7:20
And when I got married and our kids were
7:23
little, I left St. James, but I stayed
7:26
kind of fascinated by that idea. So ever since, I've
7:29
been kind of a nomad,
7:32
um, traveling through and around the
7:34
church scene, uh, through its
7:37
music. And uh, about the time I left St.
7:40
James, I also took on a volunteer ministry that we're going
7:43
to talk about a bit later, uh, as director
7:46
of the summer Institute of Church
7:48
Music. So Christianity
7:50
became in simple Thanksgiving, but
7:53
it then turned into this idea that
7:56
I could be a minister in many churches,
7:59
many traditions, and there were lots of other wonderful people
8:02
out there doing the same thing.
8:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, and I'm gonna say that I, um, think
8:09
it really has been that nomadic existence
8:12
that you have taken on that has been a big
8:15
factor in why you have been such an
8:18
influential voice in the life of the
8:20
mainline church, particularly in terms of
8:23
musical leadership in our church. So
8:26
it's, uh, definitely, I would see it
8:29
very much as a sense of call on
8:32
you in particular. Um, that's
8:35
been pretty integral to how you have served.
8:39
>> Christopher Dawes: I would agree with that. I think if I had stayed in
8:41
one place at St. James Cathedral for longer than
8:44
I did, um, not only would my
8:47
children's childhood have been quite different, uh, than, than
8:50
it was, but, um, I might not have become
8:53
as, certainly not as knowledgeable about the broad church.
8:56
And as you say, maybe, maybe not as
8:59
inspirational.
9:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, your offering would have been quite different. Quite
9:02
different. So can you just tell, uh,
9:05
us what your current ministry context
9:08
is and anything
9:11
interesting about how you got there?
9:13
>> Christopher Dawes: Mhm. Well, uh, I kind of
9:16
look on my current ministry context as
9:19
sort of a height that I've only gradually risen
9:22
to. Some people would look at St. James Cathedral and say,
9:24
well, where do you go from there?
9:28
But, uh, one of the first places I went
9:31
was when I got married. I joined
9:33
my wife's denomination, which is the christian
9:36
Reformed church in America, and uh,
9:39
by national denomination in both the
9:41
US and canada. And it's quite,
9:44
uh, ethnically dutch, uh, to
9:47
a degree. Uh, and I sort of married into
9:50
this fairly traditional family. And at the time
9:53
that I chose to leave St. James
9:55
Cathedral. I simply stayed and was a
9:58
volunteer musician in my congregation for a few
10:01
years before, uh, I began pursuing professional
10:04
church music ministry again.
10:07
And the CRC opened to me the doors of
10:10
reformed theology and also a deeply
10:13
word driven pursuit of the faith.
10:15
And that was something that hadn't been so much a part
10:18
of my, my face or my,
10:21
uh, ministry to that point.
10:24
So, um, again, I
10:26
followed this nomad path and now I find
10:29
myself among Presbyterians. I serve a small,
10:32
uh, congregation in focus on the edge of
10:35
downtown Toronto. That's quite handy to my work at the university
10:38
and other areas of the Toronto music scene.
10:41
And I do find in this particular
10:44
unusual church a wonderful union of
10:47
that great, uh, love of
10:50
music and its diverse
10:53
place to operate within the life of the community and
10:56
the life of the liturgy. But, uh, also a
10:59
very strong tradition of preaching and a very strong,
11:02
uh, interest in doctrine and belief as well.
11:05
So I kind of feel like I've landed at some place
11:08
that makes the rest of my journey
11:10
sense.
11:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Brings together a lot of different
11:14
threads.
11:15
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah.
11:16
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I love that. Is there a, uh,
11:19
spiritual practice that you're finding particularly
11:21
meaningful right now?
11:23
>> Christopher Dawes: Yes, uh, well, this, uh,
11:26
might surprise you and our listeners that a lot of
11:29
we professional musicians don't listen to very much
11:32
music.
11:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: That does surprise me, actually.
11:35
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah. Well, so, uh, obviously music is a
11:38
passion and an enormous interest, but,
11:41
um, because we tend to be
11:43
planning music and practicing music
11:46
and making music a lot, having, uh,
11:50
a parallel listening stream very often doesn't fit
11:53
into the day very well.
11:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
11:55
>> Christopher Dawes: And uh, uh, you know, I'm a big podcast
11:58
fan, uh, with no doubt you are
12:01
too. And so a lot of kind of follows
12:03
that strength. So my enforced
12:06
music listening I got involved with, as many people do
12:09
with, uh, script, the scriptural practice of, um,
12:12
lectio divine many years ago. And
12:15
I, uh, minus. Have evolved it,
12:18
uh, as I've gotten a little bit more time into
12:21
my life, into a musical form that is listening
12:24
to music for its scriptural content.
12:27
And so in many cases,
12:29
music, ah, as you know, sacred music very
12:32
often has a scriptural text of some kind
12:35
and very often poser and the
12:37
interpreters draw directly on that
12:40
scriptural text for what we finally hear as
12:43
listeners. In other cases,
12:46
um, the way the music's written doesn't
12:49
seem to directly comment on
12:52
the scriptural content. I mean, you can think about
12:55
the joyous choruses of Messiah around
12:58
Jesus birth, or the more severe and violent
13:01
ones around the suffering, uh, in which the
13:04
composer has kind of made the music sound
13:07
sort of like what scripture is saying.
13:10
There are other cases where that isn't the case,
13:13
um, where music is sort of more of an
13:16
abstract sort of conduit for the
13:19
beauty of scripture just to stand on its own. And
13:22
then there are times where a song doesn't even
13:25
really make sense until you're standing in a room and
13:28
singing it with a faith.
13:30
So, uh, I call this, uh, and
13:33
enforced musical listening is sort of the spiritual
13:36
practices I've come to know. So it's
13:39
music for scripture's sake. And, uh, what
13:42
does the process of listening to scripture through
13:44
music do for us? And I found it very
13:47
enriching.
13:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. You know, I love this question
13:51
that we always ask all of our guests because we get so
13:54
many different answers and there's some overlap in
13:57
the answers, but I've. This is one I haven't heard
14:00
before, um, one of our guests names. So
14:03
I can imagine how it could be a
14:06
spiritual practice that, uh, many of
14:08
our listeners, whether they're musicians or not, could find,
14:11
like, really meaningful. So thank you for
14:14
that, Chris.
14:16
>> Christopher Dawes: And if you know, lectio Divina, of course, it is a
14:19
practice that involves a fair amount of repetition,
14:22
which by its very nature, a lot of sacred
14:25
music does as well. You can very often have a
14:28
single verse of fitra which is repeated quite a few times
14:31
in the musical setting. So, uh, it's kind of a little
14:34
bit of that, ah, ancestry of, uh,
14:37
uh, lectio Divina built into this evolved
14:40
practice.
14:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I can very much see that connection between
14:44
lectio and, uh, this
14:46
listening practice. I think that makes a ton of
14:49
sense, that ability for
14:53
a piece of scripture to just get kind of deeper
14:56
and deeper into your. Into your being,
14:59
um, to make that
15:01
journey. Yeah. Okay,
15:04
well, thank you. Um, let's
15:07
get onto our main topic today,
15:10
because I reached out to
15:12
you, um, really just
15:15
considering all of the different
15:17
sorts of leaders and authors that we
15:20
have on the future christian podcast.
15:24
Um, but as I was thinking about that
15:27
and thinking about some of the conversations I had been having
15:29
with you, I was aware
15:32
of a gap in, uh,
15:35
future Christian, um, you know, I
15:38
think in so many of our congregations,
15:41
the most emotional connection
15:44
about what we're doing and the worship that we're
15:46
offering comes through the music.
15:49
Certainly in the churches I have served.
15:52
Anyway, a lot of the strongest opinions
15:54
get voiced around the music,
15:57
and a lot of pressure
16:00
gets placed on, um,
16:03
the musical program of any given church
16:06
as we consider our church's
16:08
viability, as we consider, um,
16:11
what is going to connect and what is going
16:14
to help the church connect with new, new people,
16:17
especially, um, but at the same
16:19
time, that that is so central to the life of many
16:22
of our churches, we really haven't
16:25
featured any, um, conversations
16:28
that I'm aware of anyway, on this
16:31
podcast with church,
16:34
uh, leaders who are leading our
16:37
music. So, Chris, I'm really grateful to get to
16:40
talk to you today about some
16:42
insights and experiences that we need
16:45
to hear from our church's musical leaders.
16:48
>> Christopher Dawes: It is my honor to be in the seat.
16:51
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thank you. So maybe,
16:54
um, you can start
16:57
by sharing from some of your experience on
16:59
the ground. Ah, as a
17:02
nomadic church leader,
17:05
um, are there some common
17:08
denominators that you see in
17:11
the faith experience or that sense of
17:13
vocation, that sense of calling,
17:16
um, from people who are leading our
17:19
church's music? Um, I'm
17:22
guessing that, like, not many people get
17:24
into musical leadership in our
17:27
churches for the fame and fortune, for example.
17:29
>> Christopher Dawes: No, you would be right about that.
17:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
17:32
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah. Um, it's, uh. Well, okay, so,
17:35
uh, just a couple of disclaimers. Church, uh,
17:38
musicians are as diverse as the church
17:41
itself.
17:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Fair enough.
17:43
>> Christopher Dawes: Yes, and we are no monoliths.
17:45
Um, and I can't presume to
17:48
speak, uh, for the experience of all of them, perhaps not
17:51
even most of them. But, um, I have been blessed
17:54
to meet and work with a pretty, um, wide
17:56
range of musicians across denominations ability
17:59
levels, from different countries and so forth.
18:02
Um, and I want to be mindful, I
18:05
sense, ah, perhaps musicians have,
18:07
uh, not occupied a lot of, uh, space
18:10
so far on future Christian, but I'm also
18:13
guessing that its constituency,
18:16
uh, skews a little bit towards the end of
18:18
pastors and ministers, general members of the
18:21
clergy. I'm sure it's not exclusively that at all,
18:24
not even from my limited listening, uh, to the podcast
18:27
so far. But, um,
18:30
I just want to be mindful as I try
18:33
to talk about some of the unique challenges musicians,
18:36
um, face. Uh, both, that some of those
18:39
challenges are faced by other musical, other leaders
18:41
in the church who are not a musician. And, uh, of
18:44
course, uh, the experience in those
18:47
places are so, it's very kind of
18:50
specialized. So, on the ground, church
18:53
musicians are special agents
18:56
of beauty and power.
18:59
It's a way I like to think.
19:01
So the, uh, uh,
19:03
church looks to musicians to
19:06
help raise levels of celebration,
19:09
of poignancy, of
19:12
scripture, of the faith and so forth, of
19:15
gravitas, of emotion.
19:18
And it is within a framework that is very heavily
19:20
driven by the scope of can work, and that,
19:23
uh, is just by the nature of the kind of beings we are.
19:26
Uh, so music. It's this
19:29
interesting sort of special agent contribution.
19:32
Send James Bond or someone in, do
19:35
something that you can't do with the structures that are
19:37
all there. Um,
19:40
musicians really love being able
19:43
to share that gift with our congregations.
19:46
But like anyone sharing gifts,
19:49
we need to feel valued. We need
19:52
to be able to apply knowledge and experience
19:55
that we have and some degree we need to be
19:58
resourced, uh, in order to uh,
20:01
help our services reach their full potential.
20:04
So, um, we have some sense that we're
20:07
doing something important.
20:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.
20:10
>> Christopher Dawes: And yet we have a great sense, I
20:12
think, of the limitations that we face
20:15
around it. I think in this way we're very similar to
20:18
ministers of the word and sacrament. You, uh, have the
20:21
same situation of the value and importance
20:24
of what we're seeking to accomplish, but we're
20:27
acutely aware of the challenges that we face as well.
20:31
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, okay,
20:33
interesting. Um, yeah,
20:36
I wrote down some of the words that you said there,
20:39
especially around agents of beauty
20:42
and power. And
20:44
um, you know,
20:47
it really does provide such an
20:50
access point for
20:52
meaning that can't be articulated
20:55
with words, even if it is word driven.
20:58
Um, it's that
21:01
uh, extra, extra
21:04
dimension of meaning that you
21:07
can't access by word alone.
21:09
>> Christopher Dawes: That's right. And I think it's worth saying as well that
21:12
it might sound if I talk about special
21:14
agency and beauty and power, that it's this
21:18
thing sort of just being interpolated into
21:21
worship that is its own thing, but it only
21:23
exists because of the relationship it has
21:27
with the members of the congregation
21:29
or with um,
21:33
the relationship that it can form with
21:36
the congregation. So in other words,
21:39
um, the beauty and power I'm referring to in some
21:42
cases, it's power of,
21:44
uh, a verse of scripture for God
21:47
so loved the world. Uh, that
21:50
is so, so,
21:52
um, uh, so
21:54
nascent, that's so present in people's
21:57
thoughts that it simply flourishes and
22:00
the music simply helps it to take that extra
22:02
importance. It could be in the power of a very
22:05
familiar hymn, one that one learned as a
22:07
child, that the power
22:10
is different, that it exerts. It's just that we tend
22:13
to understand that there is a
22:16
power and that the notion of beauty,
22:19
uh, or the notion of, uh, whatever
22:22
else it introduces. Of course, because some church
22:25
music is intentionally, uh,
22:27
unsettling or upsetting, even depending on
22:30
the topic that it's intended to address.
22:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Yeah. Can we just
22:36
dig a little bit more into the
22:38
vocation piece? Because,
22:41
um, I really take your point that,
22:44
um, we
22:47
can't speak for everyone and like you know, for
22:50
every broad brushstroke that we try to paint,
22:53
there's going to be a million exceptions and so on.
22:56
But I have a lot of friends
22:59
in musical circles, and I have a lot of friends who
23:01
have served in musical leadership in the
23:04
church. I do think that
23:06
there is,
23:08
um, a common story like
23:11
yours where, ah, people
23:14
might get into it because it
23:17
is a paying
23:20
job as a musical
23:22
opportunity. Um, it's
23:25
one way to make some
23:28
money as a musician. But
23:31
my overall sense would be that
23:34
the people who stick with it and
23:37
really invest,
23:40
um, in a real sort of
23:43
multi year kind of way,
23:45
uh, that there is very much a
23:48
sense of calling about it. There is a sense
23:51
of,
23:52
um,
23:56
being led by faith
23:59
and a desire to serve. Do you think that that's
24:02
fair?
24:03
>> Christopher Dawes: I think that is fair. Uh, I think for
24:06
some it is. It is a musical
24:09
opportunity and an income opportunity from some
24:11
musicians. Um, and to be frank, I think
24:14
some that engage in church
24:17
music, uh, do see it as
24:20
make, um, a job that they might do at the early end of their
24:23
career, and then wish to leave it
24:25
behind, either for the purpose of,
24:28
um, being a freelance
24:31
Christian who simply pursues the faith along with the
24:34
others in pews. Because I know several instances of people
24:37
who have chosen that that will be their musical route
24:40
rather than to lead anymore.
24:42
Or someone who, uh, perhaps never even sued
24:45
the faith, but nonetheless, uh, felt they were able to
24:48
share something that the church needed and, uh,
24:51
benefited from.
24:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
24:54
>> Christopher Dawes: Uh, but I think you're equally right that the people who
24:56
invest in it over a multi year, uh,
24:59
you know, the fame and fortune pieces are not really
25:02
there. It is definitely a label of
25:05
love, and it is a personal vocation and
25:07
calling. And so you're. I think
25:10
you're absolutely right about that. But I would add to this
25:13
conversation that because of being
25:16
a paid person within the church, whatever
25:19
one's motivation,
25:21
uh, to be there, there
25:24
is very often,
25:26
uh, a very different manner
25:29
of. There's sort of a little bit of a lens
25:32
that is applied to people who are paid by the churches. And this
25:35
applies to music, um, ministers as well.
25:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
25:38
>> Christopher Dawes: Uh, there are different expectations where
25:41
our Venn diagram includes employment over
25:44
here and membership over here. And
25:47
those intersect for most of us.
25:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.
25:50
>> Christopher Dawes: But, uh, because of that,
25:53
uh, if you. You might call attention.
25:56
I heard you and Loren talking about this on a recent,
25:59
uh, episode. There is
26:02
attention between these two
26:04
status pieces, uh, that we hold.
26:08
Uh, you will have some people that
26:11
wish to treat you more like an employee than a member,
26:14
some people that wish you to behave more like a member than
26:17
an employee. And very often this can give
26:20
rise tension.
26:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, uh, let's follow that
26:25
tension conversation a little further,
26:28
and maybe you can just
26:30
articulate for us what do you think
26:33
are the biggest pressure points
26:36
on our musical leaders in our churches?
26:40
What are the biggest stresses that they
26:42
carry?
26:44
>> Christopher Dawes: Well, here again, I think the intersection, uh,
26:47
a lot with our colleagues, uh, the ministers of word
26:50
and sacraments, um, that there
26:53
is a very much a shared
26:56
m pressure point around,
27:00
um,
27:02
limitations of resources, those being
27:05
human, those being financial.
27:07
Um, there is at least, I
27:10
think, somewhere in most churches today,
27:14
modicum, ah, of existential doubt
27:16
about the broader institutional journey. And
27:19
sometimes that can be very real when church experiences
27:22
serious financial problems.
27:25
Um, so in these ways,
27:27
couple that with, uh, one's own,
27:30
um, stresses of life and
27:32
balancing limited time,
27:35
uh, for ministry with other responsibilities in life
27:38
and those types of things. I think musicians, uh,
27:42
feel very much in this place as
27:44
well. Musicians, uh, do
27:47
tend, of course, to be more part time
27:49
employees. Therefore, uh, the amount of
27:52
time they have to offer and the amount of income
27:55
expectation they can have is
27:57
lower. And yet,
28:00
interestingly, you share, as a leader,
28:03
you share a space
28:06
on Sundays with the minister that is
28:09
somewhat coequal. I don't mean that, uh,
28:12
but you're responsible to the length of
28:15
the service. You are as visible as one
28:18
another. So generally
28:21
speaking, it's kind of like being a minister in
28:24
a smaller and more limited,
28:27
uh, church. Ah, I, uh, guess
28:30
you could say. Um, so I think
28:34
it's, um. I think there is that. I think there is
28:37
the piece of
28:39
expectation for what we can
28:42
achieve, uh, that is limited by
28:45
factors beyond our control. And so
28:48
there are the resource pieces. So you have, let's
28:51
say, a very small choir,
28:54
or you have an organ that no
28:57
one can afford to repair,
29:00
or you have a, ah, band that doesn't really
29:03
have enough members to properly,
29:05
uh, lead the. The music of service
29:08
in a way that we all wish that it could.
29:11
Those pieces are sometimes relatively beyond the
29:14
control of, uh, a
29:16
musician, and yet
29:19
they're, the musician will tend to be in a situation
29:22
of having more control,
29:25
exerting. Uh, so you have, in
29:27
some cases you will have, uh, committees
29:30
or colleagues that exerted direct control over
29:33
what music, uh, a church
29:36
can sing. And this
29:38
is not necessarily a bad thing,
29:41
but, uh, it probably ideally would
29:44
better exist in a conversation of some kind
29:47
between, uh, a committee
29:49
and musician or whatever structures
29:52
like that. Musicians,
29:54
um, walk into a
29:58
situation with a certain amount of experience
30:00
and a certain amount of knowledge that they wish
30:03
to share and, uh,
30:06
unfortunately, sometimes they can't use that experience and
30:09
knowledge to full benefit of the congregation.
30:13
So I guess. I guess that would be it. It's
30:15
similar, similar pressure points to those
30:18
of our, uh, clergy colleagues, but,
30:21
um, within a smaller
30:24
scope in most ways that you could
30:26
measure the scope and uh,
30:29
also arguably without as
30:32
much overarching control
30:34
over the sphere as well as.
30:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, those are
30:40
a few fairly major pressure points.
30:43
Um, I'm really struck as you're talking
30:45
by, you know, how often we talk on
30:48
this podcast about bivocational ministry
30:52
and what that looks like for clergy
30:55
as things shift and change in our churches.
30:58
And yet, as you say, like almost every
31:00
single musical leader in our
31:03
churches is bivocational. I mean, the number of
31:06
full time church
31:09
leadership musical positions available
31:12
in the mainline church in Canada, for example,
31:15
like could I maybe name on one hand?
31:18
>> Christopher Dawes: I would think so, yeah, it would be close to
31:21
that. If you churches in our future cities and,
31:24
um, outside of the main line, it can be
31:27
a little different, uh, because the, uh,
31:29
whole economies of scale outside of the main denominator,
31:32
mainline denominations are a bit different.
31:35
But, ah, no, you're quite right about that.
31:38
Um, the other piece, I just wanted to borrow a word
31:41
that I also heard you and Loren speaking about recently,
31:44
which is individuation.
31:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
31:47
>> Christopher Dawes: Um, and this is the
31:51
isolation that the vast
31:54
number of ministers of the
31:57
words and sacraments, as well as ministers of
31:59
music operate in. You're not
32:03
entirely separate from the community, but you are
32:06
unique. And so
32:09
there is, you are unique in the level of responsibility
32:12
you carry. You're usually unique in the
32:14
knowledge and experience that you carry to bring, to
32:17
bear on the situation. And yet,
32:20
um, in many cases,
32:23
uh, you're individuated enough that your
32:26
kind kind of alone in experiencing that
32:29
within your community. And
32:32
um, I would personally say that there is a
32:34
huge opportunity for better relationships
32:37
between a musician
32:40
and their minister, and vice versa,
32:43
because of this very effect that, that
32:46
singular nature. But churches are more likely to
32:48
employ, uh, perhaps, ah, you
32:51
know, a main minister and then a more part time minister
32:54
than they are to have a main musician and part
32:57
time musician. But, um, I've
33:00
always felt that that interactive nature
33:03
of the relationship between the minister and musician
33:06
probably offers us both a lot of
33:09
pastoral potential, uh, because of this
33:12
effect of loneliness, of
33:15
isolation from, uh, just
33:18
the nature of art decisions.
33:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that you're dead on with that.
33:23
I really do. And, you know, if this
33:25
conversation can spark
33:29
a, um, little bit more attention to those
33:31
relationships, I think all for the better.
33:35
Um, I want to share with our listeners
33:38
some words that you shared with me recently, because I think
33:41
that this says an
33:43
awful lot about the
33:47
place, the power, the position of
33:50
music in the life of the church right now.
33:53
So let me just read some of your
33:55
words back to you, Chris.
33:58
Um, church music can
34:01
be accorded with too much power to
34:04
save a broken church. Sometimes entrusted
34:07
with an impossible task to be
34:09
the single tweak that allows
34:12
all other problems to continue
34:15
unaddressed. Now, that is a
34:18
sentence that really packs a punch.
34:21
Um, I think that,
34:23
uh, what you're saying there
34:25
rings really true with my experience,
34:28
um, which is that
34:32
we sometimes fool ourselves into
34:35
thinking that if we just get the music
34:38
right, then decline
34:40
in our mainline churches will be solved.
34:43
And, uh, that must
34:46
be the problem and the
34:48
solution. Um, at the same
34:51
time, as we accord
34:54
it too much power to save the broken church, as you
34:56
say, I think that we can
34:59
also, at the same time, as you've already
35:02
outlined, really under value
35:05
and under resource,
35:07
uh, the vocations and the offerings of
35:10
those who are leading music in our churches.
35:13
So can you just speak to that,
35:16
um, overvaluing and under
35:19
valuing dynamic? Because I think
35:21
it's a big thing in terms of
35:24
the. Where music sits in our
35:27
churches.
35:29
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah. Uh, there is a lot in
35:31
there, um, as I've now
35:34
come sort of to a point of,
35:36
uh. Well, it will be nearly. I
35:39
guess I could describe my church musical career
35:42
as closing in on 40 years in length.
35:45
And I would say this has been a conversation
35:48
from the very beginning. Uh, m
35:51
and so positively, I would
35:54
say that conversation is a bit more mature now.
35:57
I think we've seen enough churches
36:00
try to fix their
36:02
systemic problems of various kinds
36:05
using music and have that go
36:08
terribly wrong.
36:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
36:10
>> Christopher Dawes: We see. We've seen lots of examples of that.
36:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: That's, uh, not the magic bullet that we're all
36:16
looking for.
36:16
>> Christopher Dawes: No, that's correct. So I do feel that this conversation is
36:19
more mature because we're kind of divided
36:22
into denominations. I think some hearts of the church are
36:25
more mature in this discussion now than
36:28
others. But, uh, certainly over my
36:30
time, considering that I came in as a classical
36:33
musician at a time where non, uh,
36:36
classical music, particularly in the praise and worship
36:39
form, had become already deeply
36:41
influential at that time, if you look
36:44
across the broadsweep of the church, for sure,
36:47
and, um, over my career, I think
36:50
it and other influences have, uh,
36:53
have kind of,
36:55
um, assaulted the idea of
36:58
older, traditional music on a pretty
37:00
consistent basis. Um,
37:03
so this has been a conversation for a long
37:06
time. But, um,
37:09
it is curious or ironic, as you note, that
37:12
while we accord music with
37:15
all of this power, we
37:18
do also somehow manage to
37:21
undervalue the contribution of
37:24
those that make it to the point that,
37:26
um. Uh, they
37:30
very frequently can do not become influential
37:32
voices in the path of a
37:35
congregation. Their, um,
37:37
concerns and thoughts about how
37:40
music ought to continue to evolve. Some can very
37:43
often get lost in discussions, or be
37:46
rather intentionally from those discussions.
37:50
Uh, I mean, music has played an important
37:52
role in revolutions and in
37:55
politics and in history
37:58
in general. The whole reason that we have,
38:01
um, music, some scholars argue,
38:04
is because there were times we came to a place
38:07
where the ideas we were exchanging, the words
38:10
that we like to use to exchange, uh,
38:13
to talk about important things, just haven't
38:15
sufficed, right? And so you get,
38:18
all we are saying is give peace a chance. Or
38:21
we get, um, you know, uh,
38:24
gone. Keep our land glorious and free. Uh,
38:27
you get these little pieces that can only really
38:30
be expressed fully in music. And m
38:33
so it's not hard to understand why
38:36
the power we attach to it. But
38:39
it feels for musicians very much more often
38:42
like skateboarding. Because, uh,
38:45
churches, um, a lot of churches
38:48
I am aware of, um. That may
38:50
have fairly prosperous music programs,
38:54
are not terribly welcoming places.
38:57
Sometimes they can be very exclusionary in
39:00
their sort of general tone,
39:03
uh, and sometimes by direct policy,
39:05
which could be a troubling thing, um,
39:09
to just tend, uh, to get segregated a
39:12
lot ethnically as well. Not perhaps so much here as they
39:15
do in the US. But they are, uh,
39:17
definitely a factor that I, uh, think,
39:20
um. Uh, is a fairly serious
39:23
obstacle for the church. I think
39:26
also, um, there is, uh, this
39:29
whole question of music's relationship
39:32
to adults and youth, where
39:35
musical genre tends to be very tied up in that
39:38
conversation. When it's actually a much more
39:40
interesting conversation to say
39:42
about all the old folks like this and hate that and
39:45
all of the young folks like this and hate
39:48
that.
39:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, just ask my teenage daughter what she thinks of
39:52
those kind of blanket
39:54
differentiations and you'll get an earful.
39:57
>> Christopher Dawes: They're quite. It's quite insulting. And
40:00
uh, yet we're allowed to hold these conversations in
40:03
churches mainly because we're, uh,
40:06
dominated by one of those two age groups.
40:09
That's just kind of how it
40:11
goes.
40:15
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, um,
40:18
thank you for outlining
40:21
some of those challenges, some of those
40:24
dynamics, some of those
40:26
pressures, some of those contradictions.
40:29
Uh, you teased this at the beginning of our conversation,
40:32
but you have, ah, another
40:35
role in which you serve, ah, on
40:38
the board of directors of the Summer Institute of
40:41
Church Music. And I think it's fair to say
40:44
that, um, the
40:47
sicm really
40:49
exists to give
40:52
support and to
40:54
create community, um,
40:58
for musical leaders
41:01
across our churches. Um, we're going to be
41:03
hanging out together this summer, the two of
41:06
us, at SICM, because I'm going to
41:09
be leading some daily keynote addresses on the
41:12
topic why church music matters.
41:15
Can you just give some
41:18
information, uh, to our
41:21
listeners, our audience, about sicm,
41:24
who comes, what you're seeking to offer,
41:27
how the genesis of
41:30
this unfolded? Uh.
41:33
>> Christopher Dawes: Absolutely. Well, and we're very excited that
41:35
you're going to be part of our session this year.
41:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: The institute, I'm excited too.
41:40
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah. The institute was founded in 1980,
41:43
1970. Very different time and place for
41:46
the church. And it has,
41:49
as you've said, uh, provided community,
41:52
it has provided instruction, uh, training.
41:55
We like to think it provides some inspiration.
41:58
Basically, it has, for most of its history, taken the
42:01
form of a week long
42:03
meeting in person at a beautiful
42:06
old castle in Whitby, Ontario.
42:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: A castle?
42:10
>> Christopher Dawes: Um, yes. Uh, that's always been a cool part
42:13
of it. It has a fascinating history. We don't have time to get
42:16
into that place. It's now an independent
42:18
school. Uh, and in recent years, in
42:21
fact, the institute, particularly under
42:24
the influence of the COVID pandemic, sort of moved first
42:27
online and then into a smaller venue. Uh,
42:30
but it has been this place
42:33
that people could come to, uh, to
42:36
commune together, to worship daily,
42:39
to, uh, discuss
42:42
topics of importance to church musicians,
42:45
to learn a little bit from noted
42:47
teachers and work on their skills
42:50
and, um, other aspects, and also to
42:53
network to meet one another, because, as I said, church
42:56
musicians on the whole work very much
42:59
alone and don't have that kind
43:01
of community, in many cases provided locally to
43:04
them. My, uh, own
43:07
involvement with the institute, uh,
43:10
began in the early two thousands about that time that
43:13
I left St. James Cathedral. And
43:16
it, uh, has been now 20 years that I've
43:19
served on the board. Um,
43:22
so the institute
43:25
suffered a fairly significant setback with the
43:27
Covid-19 pandemic. Mhm. We had
43:30
50 years. Our 50th session was in
43:33
2019. And then we slammed
43:36
directly into the Covid-19 pandemic in
43:38
2020, moved a much
43:40
reduced gathering completely online
43:43
that year, experimented with a larger
43:46
completely online gathering the following
43:49
year, and then sort of moved into a
43:52
hybrid space in the year after that. So we were kind of making our
43:55
way back to what we hoped would be
43:58
a big relaunch in 2023.
44:01
But unfortunately, we had sort of a
44:03
perfect storm of a lot of related events
44:06
taking place in the Toronto area at the time,
44:09
uh, we certainly had not recovered our strength
44:12
from the, uh, Covid
44:14
interruption, and we were forced to
44:17
cancel our 2023 session because
44:20
of lack of registrations. So we were at this kind
44:23
of dark night of the heart,
44:25
uh, place as a board.
44:28
And, uh, about that time
44:31
I discovered why gather by Martha
44:34
Totarnik. And, uh, this was
44:37
at the point we reached out to you a little over a year
44:39
ago, and we
44:42
sensed that a lot of what
44:45
you were covering in terms of your
44:48
personal, um, experience of the church
44:51
and also its institutional life
44:53
applied to our institution.
44:56
I mean, we're very much, uh, we serve, if you
44:59
will, at the pleasure of the church
45:02
community. We've been supporting its musicians for over 50
45:05
years from, uh, all denominations, and they come from
45:08
all over Canada, as well as from the US and other
45:11
countries sometimes. But we had
45:14
come, ah, to this place where we were wondering whether it was
45:17
worth it anymore. We have more and more churches
45:20
that are in dire straits, that are cutting music
45:22
programs, um, and positions.
45:26
Uh, we are a big country and it's
45:28
expensive to travel to an in person location.
45:31
And so we had all of these issues swarming
45:34
around us. And, uh, the glimpse of your
45:37
book kind of helped us with that, into
45:40
a conversational place that we thought would be very
45:43
valuable for us as an institute, as well
45:46
as for our students and the churches that serve.
45:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: So what are people's options for
45:52
registering for this summer? How can they get
45:54
connected with SICM for the summer? Either
45:57
for people listening or for people listening who
46:00
would know somebody who would really benefit
46:03
from getting connected in, with this community?
46:06
>> Christopher Dawes: Right? Okay. This is great for me to have the
46:09
opportunity to share this information, and I'm sure I'll have a chance
46:12
to say this later, but our website at, uh,
46:14
SICM Ca also
46:17
contains all of this information.
46:19
So our gathering will take place from July
46:22
9 to 11th, and it will be
46:25
held in person in Whitby,
46:27
Ontario. We're using a
46:30
three day, four hour schedule,
46:33
so from 12:00 p.m. until 04:00 p.m.
46:36
eastern time in person at a church
46:39
and anglican church, All Saints church in Whitby. We
46:42
will be holding our sessions in
46:44
person. Uh, we will be singing together,
46:47
we will be hearing addresses and having discussions
46:50
led by faculty, including yourself.
46:53
And, uh, the twelve to 04:00
46:56
p.m. timing, if that sounds a little strange. It was
46:59
very specifically designed so that
47:02
people across Canada could join at a
47:04
convenient point during the day. So our friends
47:07
in the pacific time zone, uh, right across North
47:10
America. Because, of course, uh, this is of interest to people in the US
47:13
as well. Can join beginning at 09:00 in the
47:16
morning.
47:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right?
47:18
>> Christopher Dawes: And the time zones work all the way across the country
47:20
until we have our friends
47:23
in on. In Halifax, in the
47:25
maritime, uh, atlantic time zone, join
47:28
from, uh, 01:00 in the afternoon, and our
47:31
Newfoundland friends at 130. So the
47:34
idea is that this all falls roughly within
47:37
the workday space in this
47:40
beautiful summer time when some of us have a little bit
47:43
more time on our hands. July, uh, 9th to
47:45
11th. And of course, those, ah, who can't be
47:48
in person with us from 1212 to four at Whitby are joining at
47:51
these other times online. You can
47:54
have a little group that joins from your church or your
47:57
living room. You can join individually, as you
48:00
probably have joined far too many things in the last
48:03
few years, but, uh, those options are all
48:05
available. And, uh, as a result of this
48:08
schedule, we've also been able to lower, uh, our
48:11
registration fees and retain
48:14
faculty. And, um, we're very
48:17
excited about this new format, and we hope many
48:20
listeners from, uh, future Christian may be interested in
48:23
checking us out.
48:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Thank you. Um, I think that that
48:28
attention by you and the board to
48:30
removing as many barriers as possible so that people
48:33
can access that, uh,
48:36
community, that support that learning,
48:39
um, I think that's incredibly important.
48:43
So before we, um, close
48:46
with our rapid fire questions, I just have one more
48:49
little question. I mean,
48:51
I don't expect you to be able to give a completely
48:54
comprehensive answer to this.
48:57
Um, but what do you think that
48:59
music offers the faith of the
49:02
future? What do you think that, uh, the role of
49:05
music is in our churches,
49:08
particularly in a time of
49:11
declining religious participation, rising
49:13
secularism, what do you see as the
49:16
healthy and vital role of music for
49:19
church?
49:20
>> Christopher Dawes: Well, this in a nutshell.
49:23
I would love to see both
49:26
our church's musicians and our church's
49:29
leaders as well, really, as all of its
49:31
members seeing music as this
49:34
gift, as something that the special
49:37
agent can be sent in to actually
49:39
really enrich our life as a
49:42
community. And, uh, I'm going to say also that it's
49:45
not necessarily simply limited
49:48
to the focus of the Sunday worship service, because that
49:51
is obviously a huge musical focus for
49:53
most, um, musical programs in churches.
49:56
But music creates community around
49:59
choirs and other ensembles. It
50:02
can be incorporated into meetings
50:05
in ways that it often isn't. Meetings very
50:08
dry and yet very easy to begin and end
50:11
a music with a hymn. I do,
50:13
uh, return to James Bond. I think I spent too many, uh,
50:16
years around you Anglicans is my problem why I have such a
50:19
british, uh, image. But I think about
50:22
him, uh, saying, this
50:25
is the job for Bond. We're going to send our musician
50:28
in to make this syllabus collaboration really
50:30
special, and music is going to be able to do that
50:33
for us. And, uh, q is
50:36
always there providing all of those gadgets, all of the
50:39
little tools that the special agent
50:42
needs in order to really make, uh, the
50:45
mission a success. And the musician finally
50:48
is coming in as this figure, uh,
50:51
who commands, uh, appropriate respect
50:54
and yet is fully committed to the mission as
50:57
everyone else. So that's kind of,
51:00
uh, the paradigm I would like to bring. I do think music
51:02
is viewed sometimes as a bit of an
51:05
ongoing responsibility or something
51:08
that doing a job for us, like our
51:10
dishwasher, I think what it should actually
51:13
be doing is really changing and really
51:16
enriching, uh, the life that we need to
51:19
get.
51:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that's a very memorable takeaway.
51:23
Um, we need music to be allowed to be
51:26
James Bond in our
51:29
congregations. We all need some more James
51:31
Bond. Thank you for that, Chris.
51:34
Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back
51:37
to our rapid fire closing
51:39
questions.
51:43
Welcome back to our future christian
51:45
podcast. I continue to be here with
51:48
Chris Dawes. And, uh, Chris, we're
51:51
going to go through our closing questions that
51:54
we ask all of our guests. We always tell our guests
51:57
that you can take these questions as
52:00
seriously as you want or as
52:02
irreverently as you want, whatever is
52:05
your choice. Um, so if you
52:08
were pope for a day,
52:11
what would that day look like? What would be on
52:14
your, uh, agenda?
52:16
>> Christopher Dawes: I think what I would do, and I'm not sure this
52:19
would be doable within a day. I don't want to overestimate
52:22
what's possible in the day. Uh, but,
52:25
um, I would bring into
52:28
being some kind of a huge
52:31
musical event for the world.
52:34
And this is not something that you see popes doing
52:36
that regularly. The whole question seems to be
52:39
couched in the idea of there being power and
52:42
influence, uh, that I somehow
52:44
want, which I'm not sure I actually do. But if I had
52:47
it, I think what it would be would be
52:51
a, uh, huge, diverse musical event that would
52:53
somehow circle, ah, the
52:56
globe, uh, and be a powerful symbol
52:59
of, uh, the faith in that form
53:01
or the entire world.
53:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, there you go. There is another completely
53:07
unique answer to that question that we
53:10
ask all of our guests. I've never had
53:12
anybody, uh, give an answer quite like
53:15
that, so thank you. That really adds to
53:18
our repertoire of what could happen on this
53:21
mythical day
53:24
and speaking, uh, of kind of mythical
53:27
questions. If you could
53:29
meet or bring back to life a
53:32
theologian or historical christian figure, who would it
53:35
be? Who would you want to sit down and, you know, have a
53:37
meal with?
53:39
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah, well, if, uh, some listeners will
53:42
have, uh. When I mentioned the name of my
53:44
grandfather, wondered, um, if I
53:47
was referring, uh, your ears might have pricked up a
53:50
little bit when I said the name Charles Haddon Spurgeon
53:53
Dawes, because my grandfather, who was a united
53:56
church minister, was named for the famous
53:59
19th century Baptist preacher Charles Haddon
54:01
Spurgeon.
54:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, okay.
54:04
>> Christopher Dawes: And. And Spurgeon, uh, uh, the. The
54:06
earlier is a different ancestor of mine,
54:10
but that is not the only reason why, uh, uh,
54:13
he would be the one I would actually choose if
54:15
I could bring one back to life and actually get a chance
54:18
to meet. Spurgeon was, um, um,
54:21
known sometimes as the prince of preachers. He
54:24
was, uh, apparently incredible to. To, uh,
54:27
go here and listen. Many of his sermons are in
54:30
print, and they come across as a incredibly dry. So
54:33
it makes it all his reputation even more
54:35
impressive to me. But,
54:38
uh, I'm guessing I wouldn't like me see eye to eye with
54:41
Spurgeon on a lot of theological
54:44
matters, but, um, I consider him
54:47
the prince of inspirational quotes.
54:49
Um, he's usually credited as the one
54:52
who came up with the word thanks living, if you
54:55
know that term. The idea of living a
54:58
life of thanksgiving, uh, and thanks living.
55:01
So it doesn't sound like some kind of a term that would be made up in the
55:04
19th century.
55:05
>> Martha Tatarnic: No, it does not.
55:06
>> Christopher Dawes: He's sort of the earliest, uh, the earliest instance
55:08
that, uh, is actually recorded as a real
55:11
quote. I just want to throw a couple
55:14
of others. Famously, he said, a very prescient
55:17
one for our time. A lie can travel
55:19
halfway around the earth while truth is putting on its
55:22
shoes. That's a pretty. That's a
55:25
pretty, uh, present, uh, quote for our time.
55:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
55:28
>> Christopher Dawes: But there are a couple more profound. Um,
55:31
giving is through having
55:34
is one that I particularly love as well. He
55:37
also said, fill the earth with your songs
55:40
of gratitude and Germaine to
55:43
our topic. Uh, he said,
55:45
anxiety does not empty tomorrow of its
55:48
sorrows, but it empties today of
55:51
its strength.
55:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Um, well, he does certainly have a way
55:56
with a turn of phrase, doesn't he?
55:58
>> Christopher Dawes: He certainly does, yeah. I wonder
56:00
what? He'd probably be incredibly
56:03
incensed about the way the world is today, but I would like to
56:06
bring. Like to bring him back.
56:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. All right. I think that's a really
56:11
good answer. What will history remember
56:14
from our career, time and place.
56:18
>> Christopher Dawes: Yeah. So I think we're at an interesting
56:20
place, um, because you and I grew
56:23
up at a time when the earth had been going from
56:26
strength to strength, curing
56:29
diseases, relieving poverty, acknowledging
56:31
human rights, all sorts of really great stuff. This was
56:34
sort of the regular order of business
56:37
through my childhood and through our
56:39
adolescence and so forth.
56:41
Um, so. And we lived pretty
56:44
peacefully for quite a while in that time.
56:47
And I
56:50
think despite. And this is sort of for the
56:53
church as well,
56:56
you and I would always have had to,
56:58
um, look back for
57:01
a worse. A worse time. And
57:04
I mean, there were good times, uh, if you look at
57:07
numbers and that sort of thing. Thing. But there have been very bad times
57:10
in history as well. So
57:13
now this promise when we sort of
57:16
thought the world would just improve consistently,
57:18
forever. That hasn't entirely panned
57:21
out in our. In our current day.
57:24
Um, and so this is
57:27
a time when I think we have to be very
57:30
m suspicious about,
57:33
uh, our nostalgia, because we begin to lose
57:36
things about the world we grew up in that we
57:39
thought we could rely on. I think
57:42
history will remember this as a time that we fractured our
57:45
society, um, out of self
57:48
interest, local, uh, self interest. I think
57:50
certainly our countries are doing this, possibly
57:53
destroying ourselves in the process. We hope not. But,
57:56
um, and history will interrogate our response
57:59
to that change,
58:01
whatever, uh, whenever we write the ship
58:04
and begin to think like a world community again, I think that
58:07
will happen. But, um. But
58:10
I do think that's what history is going to say about this
58:12
moment.
58:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's fair. And, uh, that call
58:17
to be suspicious of our nostalgia is
58:19
very apt. What are your hopes for
58:22
the future of Christianity?
58:25
>> Christopher Dawes: Well, yeah, so I think this time,
58:29
um, can certainly make us be
58:32
wary about the problems of
58:34
nostalgia. If I were to coin a phrase,
58:36
make Christianity great again,
58:39
you know, that phrase would be pretty
58:42
politically, uh, there's a political version of that phrase
58:44
which is loaded and out there
58:47
now. But to say it
58:50
really seems to clearly divide the
58:53
world into winners and losers and what is really not
58:56
the gospel, and it's not the great
58:58
commission.
59:00
Um, and make Christianity great again
59:03
also, unfortunately, seems, uh, far too
59:06
easily to abandon the gospel and
59:09
a gospel of love that we're really called
59:12
follow. And so we're
59:15
replacing it with something that's a bit more aggressive and self
59:18
interested. So I think what I
59:20
hope is that we can be careful as
59:23
we look into the future of the church, that we can be truly
59:26
connected to where we started. Uh,
59:29
if I have a musical hope, uh,
59:32
I am kind of a content
59:34
traditionalist. I'm very, uh,
59:37
genre, um,
59:39
genre, um, open.
59:42
I love leading and, uh, playing
59:45
worship music as much as I am global music, as much as I love
59:48
traditional hymnody and choir at organ and so
59:50
forth. But I'm content traditionalist
59:53
in that we give our music a very
59:56
important responsibility when it carries the word of
59:59
God, when it actually is a conduit
1:00:02
for the faith. Uh, we know it occupies
1:00:05
a huge role in the human memory
1:00:07
and the way we receive information and the way
1:00:10
we. I think our music,
1:00:14
we, uh, have to be very judgmental about it.
1:00:17
We have to be very sure that it contains the
1:00:19
message that we want the church to be saying.
1:00:23
And, uh, I think it's, uh, I think there's a
1:00:26
lot of, uh, power that has left to
1:00:29
exert in the church. It very much matters if I can
1:00:32
go back to our sicm theme for this
1:00:34
year. And, um, as
1:00:37
long as we can go into the challenges ahead
1:00:40
understanding that, understanding that every decision
1:00:43
we make about it really does matter.
1:00:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:00:49
Church music matters. Where can people
1:00:51
find out more about you, Chris? And, uh, if you want
1:00:54
to plug sicm one more time?
1:00:57
>> Christopher Dawes: Absolutely, um, well, so Canada's summer Institute
1:01:00
of Church Music is online at SICM M
1:01:03
ca. Our 2024
1:01:06
session runs from July 9 to
1:01:08
eleven, 4 hours a day in person
1:01:11
in whitby, Ontario. And that's 12:00 p.m. to
1:01:14
04:00 p.m. eastern time in quebec and
1:01:17
Ontario, um, and then adjusted for time zones,
1:01:19
obviously across, uh, the continent.
1:01:22
Uh, again, a great welcome to our american friends
1:01:25
if they are interested in, uh, joining us,
1:01:28
either in person or online. We've. I've been blessed
1:01:31
deeply by those relationships in the past.
1:01:34
Um, people can find out information about me at
1:01:37
ideasaboutmusic. Ca
1:01:40
this is just a website where I've been collecting
1:01:43
a little bit of my work from over the years,
1:01:46
and it will, um,
1:01:48
it's a little neglected from time to time, but, uh, you'll certainly
1:01:51
find out a lot about me and things, uh, that I'm
1:01:54
interested in, things that I'm passionate about.
1:01:57
And, uh, thank you very much for the
1:02:00
opportunity to be here.
1:02:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, thank you for such a thoughtful and
1:02:04
insightful and unique
1:02:06
conversation. I feel like, ah, a lot of, um,
1:02:09
what you offered today, um, we
1:02:12
just haven't heard that voice on our
1:02:15
podcast. So I'm really grateful to you, Chris,
1:02:18
and, uh, we always leave with a word of
1:02:21
peace. So, Chris, may the peace of Christmas be
1:02:24
with you.
1:02:24
>> Christopher Dawes: And also with you.
1:02:27
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the future Christian podcast.
1:02:30
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
1:02:33
visit future dash christian.com.
1:02:36
one more thing before you go, do us a favor
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It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the
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1:02:50
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
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provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
1:03:02
and go in peace.