Latest / Work It Like A Mum / Is Being a Stay-at-Home Mum the Ultimate Act of Rebellion in 2024? With Chair of Mothers at Home Matter, Anne Fennell.

Transcript

Is Being a Stay-at-Home Mum the Ultimate Act of Rebellion in 2024? With Chair of Mothers at Home Matter, Anne Fennell. · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:01
  Elizabeth Willetts: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  Elizabeth Willetts: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Elizabeth Willetts: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:43
  Elizabeth Willetts: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: No way.
• 0:45
  Elizabeth Willetts: Money struggles, growth loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:50
  Elizabeth Willetts: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Elizabeth Willetts: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and make sure you cozy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Elizabeth Willetts: This is the Work it Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Elizabeth Willetts: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:17
  Elizabeth Willetts: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:29
  Elizabeth Willetts: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:34
  Elizabeth Willetts: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:43
  Elizabeth Willetts: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:52
  Elizabeth Willetts: Now back to the show.
• 1:54
  Elizabeth Willetts: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Work it Like a Mum podcast, where we bring to light stories of extraordinary individuals who are redefining the norms.
• 2:04
  Elizabeth Willetts: Today I am thrilled to welcome Anne Fennell, a remarkable woman who wears many hats.
• 2:10
  Elizabeth Willetts: She's a wife and mother of six and is a passionate advocate for valuing the role of care.
• 2:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: She's also the chair of mothers at home matter.
• 2:18
  Elizabeth Willetts: Anne's journey is one of dedication, resilience and a deep commitment to ensuring that the choice to care is respected and preserved for future generations.
• 2:28
  Elizabeth Willetts: From influencing family policies to her role as president of the European Federation of Parents and Careers at Home, anne's work has had a profound impact on families and caregivers.
• 2:40
  Elizabeth Willetts: Join us today as we delve into her inspiring story and explore her insights on societal and political aspects of caregiving.
• 2:48
  Elizabeth Willetts: Thank you so much, anne, for joining me today.
• 2:50
  Elizabeth Willetts: I'm really excited to learn more about mothers at home matter.
• 2:54
  Elizabeth Willetts: You've got a really thriving Instagram account, so if people are listening to this their Instagram account, you'll find it really interesting.
• 3:00
  Elizabeth Willetts: But I know that you've put something there quite a bit that I find quite interesting.
• 3:04
  Elizabeth Willetts: That is quite a radical choice to be a stay at home mother in 2024.
• 3:09
  Elizabeth Willetts: Now we're just 2024 and recording it.
• 3:11
  Elizabeth Willetts: Why do you say that?
• 3:13
  Anne Fennell: Because for quite a few years it's been seen as a backward step, as to be at home and seeing a sort of sepia tinted looking back to the past.
• 3:22
  Anne Fennell: But many of our moms say, no, no, it's a choice that we want to make.
• 3:25
  Anne Fennell: It is a radical choice because it's not the norm.
• 3:28
  Anne Fennell: It's the norm now is to go back to work.
• 3:30
  Anne Fennell: But I think this is a choice that you're thinking about that actually.
• 3:34
  Anne Fennell: No, I don't want to do what the world is telling me to do.
• 3:37
  Anne Fennell: That it's something that you're doing for yourself, for your children, for your family, and it's going against the norm and it's a difficult step.
• 3:44
  Anne Fennell: It's like a step in the dark.
• 3:45
  Anne Fennell: Financially it's crazy, as in you know, who'd want to give up an income to do a job that no one sort of values, that it's given no recognition.
• 3:53
  Anne Fennell: You know it's a very physical job.
• 3:55
  Anne Fennell: There's no one saying well done, you're doing a marvelous job, and that the end of the day doesn't look like you've done very much.
• 4:01
  Anne Fennell: There's nothing to sort of.
• 4:02
  Anne Fennell: You know there's no recognition of what you're doing, and yet we want to do it and yet there is so much fulfillment in it as well.
• 4:08
  Anne Fennell: So that's why it's a radical choice.
• 4:11
  Elizabeth Willetts: Do you think society and people look down on stay at home moms?
• 4:16
  Anne Fennell: Yes, I think firstly the confidence has to come within oneself, because I think a lot of people don't even value it.
• 4:21
  Anne Fennell: They kind of know it's important.
• 4:23
  Anne Fennell: And even myself for a long time, even though, having six, I still felt shy of saying, oh, I'm at home, that's my main role.
• 4:30
  Anne Fennell: But I think once you start to value it yourself, then you give off that confidence and then other people value it, because if you give off that confidence then you get that back.
• 4:39
  Elizabeth Willetts: But generally no, I mean, there's such a drive in the moment we're recording this and there's a big drive, particularly mums, back to work.
• 4:48
  Elizabeth Willetts: They've introduced 30 hours for your childcare.
• 4:52
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think it's come in just as we've hit the new year for children aged over two, but it's going to be brought in for children babies nine months old.
• 5:00
  Elizabeth Willetts: What would you say to, if you were in a room with the government, who are implementing these policies?
• 5:06
  Elizabeth Willetts: What would you like to say to them about wanting to stay at home?
• 5:10
  Anne Fennell: I'd say that there are many, many mums who would like to stay at home and this proposal recognises that families are struggling, that people need to be able to work to afford builds, but we're not taking the step back to see why a family is struggling and why we're not supporting families to make the choice to care as they wish.
• 5:27
  Anne Fennell: I mean, the drive for this childcare is not really about the children, it's about getting, it's about labour shortages and when you listen to the chancellor, it's about it's good for the economy.
• 5:37
  Anne Fennell: When we're looking at what's best for families and what's best for children, that's a completely different question.
• 5:42
  Anne Fennell: And if you look at many, many surveys, mothers about 70% of mothers would like to be at home longer and be with their children longer.
• 5:50
  Anne Fennell: We're not saying forever.
• 5:51
  Anne Fennell: We're not saying no, no, yeah, yeah, but more hours with their children.
• 5:55
  Anne Fennell: It's such a precious time, it's such a beautiful time and we don't want to rush people back into the work before either the children are ready or mothers are ready.
• 6:03
  Anne Fennell: So I would say let's take a step back, let's see why families are struggling.
• 6:06
  Anne Fennell: Let's see how we can support families and how we can give choice to families so that they can make the choice, whether they care or they give it to a grandparents, they give them money to a grandparent or to a childminder or to an external nursery.
• 6:19
  Elizabeth Willetts: It doesn't have to be just one option, because I was going to say, if you could tweet do you like these policies?
• 6:25
  Elizabeth Willetts: You please?
• 6:25
  Elizabeth Willetts: They come in or not?
• 6:29
  Anne Fennell: I mean, I think parents do need an option.
• 6:31
  Anne Fennell: I think we're about to spend billions on child care and there are many, many problems with this.
• 6:35
  Anne Fennell: Partly we're not paying the nursery workers enough.
• 6:38
  Anne Fennell: I think the fact that we don't value what we're doing, that we don't value either raising of children, whether it's at home or in nursery that we don't pay people properly.
• 6:48
  Anne Fennell: So what we're going to get are places which are understaffed.
• 6:52
  Anne Fennell: There'll probably be a lot of pressure on these nurseries then they're going to have to tick all the boxes.
• 6:58
  Anne Fennell: We're taking care of very young children, and children need love and time and patience and nurture.
• 7:04
  Anne Fennell: I don't think we're looking at the question of what children need properly.
• 7:08
  Anne Fennell: I don't think we're even looking at what parents and families really need either.
• 7:13
  Anne Fennell: So I would relook at the whole question.
• 7:16
  Anne Fennell: I would start from what do children need?
• 7:18
  Anne Fennell: What do families need to be able to support themselves?
• 7:21
  Anne Fennell: We need to completely review our tax system and also housing.
• 7:25
  Anne Fennell: It's a huge question and there's no easy answers.
• 7:27
  Anne Fennell: It is a real problem that people can't afford housing.
• 7:31
  Elizabeth Willetts: Lwx no, yeah yeah, and then obviously then people need two incomes, whether they love their job or not Sometimes it's not really about that it's just what you need to survive.
• 7:40
  Elizabeth Willetts: In terms of them, what?
• 7:42
  Elizabeth Willetts: So you sort of said you would prefer it if a family were given money and then they could choose to spend that money.
• 7:48
  Elizabeth Willetts: Is that what you would?
• 7:49
  Elizabeth Willetts: Lwx.
• 7:49
  Anne Fennell: Well, that's one option.
• 7:50
  Anne Fennell: I think there's two things.
• 7:51
  Anne Fennell: One first thing I think people need to be allowed to keep the money they earn.
• 7:55
  Anne Fennell: So the way we're taxed is really important.
• 7:58
  Anne Fennell: One of the problems of being a single earner is that the more you earn, the more you get taxed.
• 8:02
  Anne Fennell: What the tax system doesn't do is look at how many dependents are dependent on that one income.
• 8:09
  Anne Fennell: So you get taxed the same whether you're on your own, whether you're a single person or whether you have five dependents.
• 8:14
  Anne Fennell: So one of the things would be to look at how we tax families and to allow people to keep more of their own income so that they're not reliant on the state for the welfare or for top ups.
• 8:24
  Anne Fennell: So that would be one thing.
• 8:25
  Anne Fennell: The child benefit obviously needs reform, because at the moment, you start hitting 50,000 and it gets taken away, whereas you can earn up to.
• 8:33
  Anne Fennell: These are things that are challenging for single earner families.
• 8:37
  Anne Fennell: And then, if you're going to support parent to be able to send, if you're going to put money into childcare, why not have the option that that money could be used to be at home?
• 8:47
  Anne Fennell: So you could extend, increase the child benefit or you could increase the tax allowance for children.
• 8:52
  Anne Fennell: That's what they do in other countries.
• 8:54
  Anne Fennell: So in France you have a tax allowance per child or you could give it as a voucher system so that that money could be used for caring in those early years.
• 9:04
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, I suppose it is all an economical thing though, because I suppose then they're thinking the government, if they give money to families and then people take time out, they're not actually contributing to the taxes, and then when they eventually, if they decide to go back to work, they may be going in a lot lower because they won't have maintained their career.
• 9:22
  Elizabeth Willetts: I suppose it is like wrapped up in it's quite a big picture there.
• 9:25
  Elizabeth Willetts: It's wrapped up in.
• 9:26
  Anne Fennell: That's right.
• 9:27
  Anne Fennell: So you're looking at numbers, but I mean, I suppose we're looking at the welfare and the happiness and the mental health of children and also I think you also got to look at.
• 9:36
  Anne Fennell: You know, a lot of people are on much lower incomes so they don't necessarily pay a lot of tax back to the Treasury.
• 9:44
  Anne Fennell: So, and then what you pay in childcare, does that cover what the tax receipts back to the Treasury are?
• 9:48
  Anne Fennell: I don't know that it particularly does.
• 9:50
  Anne Fennell: I know that career progressions is one thing, pensions is another, but I suppose we need to have a wider picture and think about what's better for raising children in the long run and for parents as well.
• 10:02
  Elizabeth Willetts: I mean, it's interesting because we sort of spoke, didn't we, just before that.
• 10:06
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know I obviously advocate.
• 10:07
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know, if people want to work, that's great.
• 10:09
  Elizabeth Willetts: But personally I probably wasn't ready to work, work until my youngest was two, and at that point we're in the pandemic and you know, that point I was probably like going a bit crazy, so crazy being in four walls.
• 10:22
  Elizabeth Willetts: But I don't personally and obviously everyone's different I don't think I would have been ready to go about like full time when she was nine months old, I think one of the sad things is that we're putting pressure on mothers and you know, raising a baby and having a baby takes time to relax and to enjoy it.
• 10:38
  Anne Fennell: If you're thinking, well, I've got to go back in six months, that's your kind of goal, that's at the forefront of your mind, you're kind of thinking, well, I've got to get them off breastfeeding or I've got to start getting them used to a routine or I've got to, and so you're not enjoying it.
• 10:50
  Anne Fennell: You can't fully relax into the role of motherhood and I think that's a real shame.
• 10:55
  Anne Fennell: I don't think the baby is particularly ready at nine months.
• 10:57
  Anne Fennell: They start to have anxiety.
• 11:00
  Anne Fennell: Yeah, you've got that separation outside, Not for everyone, Sometimes it's absolutely fine, but it is a well known phenomenon and that sort of happens to about three years does that gradually lessens?
• 11:11
  Anne Fennell: But you kind of want to gradually let the child go?
• 12:05
  Elizabeth Willetts: Which countries do you think have a good model, then?
• 12:08
  Elizabeth Willetts: Which countries?
• 12:09
  Elizabeth Willetts: Is there any countries in the world where you think, yeah, they seem to have it nailed, they value care.
• 12:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: Families seem really settled, women feel they've got a genuine choice team working or staying at home and if they choose to stay at home, that is valued.
• 12:23
  Elizabeth Willetts: Is there any countries that you admire?
• 12:26
  Anne Fennell: Well, I've just taken over the role of president of the Federation for European Parents and Carers, and so I'm just I'm only just really finding out about different countries.
• 12:35
  Anne Fennell: I'm sort of touching the surface.
• 12:36
  Anne Fennell: So, at the moment, hungary are very supportive of families.
• 12:39
  Anne Fennell: They have a mission to kind of increase their birth rate, so I think they have tax allowance per child, but also, once you have four children, you don't pay any tax, I think as a mother, though.
• 12:49
  Anne Fennell: So that means when you go back to work, they also have a housing allowance if you're going to have children, but then there is a downside that if you don't have children, you have to pay it back.
• 12:57
  Anne Fennell: Okay, yeah, I'll put the professor on you if you can't have children, but there is a housing allowance.
• 13:03
  Anne Fennell: I know in Germany there's like a home allowance, and in Finland there's a home allowance, but there are also downsides.
• 13:08
  Anne Fennell: I know in Germany it's compulsory that you go back to school.
• 13:11
  Anne Fennell: I'm not quite sure.
• 13:12
  Anne Fennell: When you have to be in school, you can't take care of your own children after a certain age, okay, so you don't have home schooling.
• 13:19
  Anne Fennell: Yeah, finland has a home allowance, but I know they're fighting to keep it.
• 13:22
  Anne Fennell: There's this constant pressure to.
• 13:24
  Anne Fennell: I think they have a home allowance and nursery system.
• 13:27
  Anne Fennell: So and in France the tax system is a lot better than here they take account of the whole household income and then it limits her child.
• 13:35
  Anne Fennell: So that is better, but they also have.
• 13:37
  Anne Fennell: I think people are very happy with the childcare system as well.
• 13:40
  Anne Fennell: So I have to.
• 13:41
  Anne Fennell: I am sort of binding out more.
• 13:43
  Anne Fennell: That's what I know at the moment.
• 13:44
  Anne Fennell: Yeah.
• 13:45
  Elizabeth Willetts: Because the feminists a lot of feminists hailed it as a brilliant thing when women were taxed separately to their husband.
• 13:51
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think it was like the early 1990s.
• 13:54
  Elizabeth Willetts: I mean, if you've been involved then, but what are your views on that?
• 13:57
  Elizabeth Willetts: Would you think it is anti-feminist for the family to be taxed as opposed to individuals?
• 14:03
  Anne Fennell: There was a lot of reform that was needed in the 1990s.
• 14:06
  Anne Fennell: So in a way that it was a necessary thing.
• 14:08
  Anne Fennell: But they kind of threw the baby out of the bathwater, as it were.
• 14:11
  Anne Fennell: So in 1990, when they introduced independent taxation Nigel Lawson he intended there to be independent taxation with transferable allowances so that if you didn't work you could transfer your unused allowance to your husband and you could be taxed as a household.
• 14:26
  Anne Fennell: So there was fairness in that there were allowances for children and with single parents there was an additional person's allowance.
• 14:33
  Anne Fennell: But unfortunately Margaret Thatcher wasn't very supportive.
• 14:36
  Anne Fennell: Those the additional clauses didn't go through and then gradually we got rid of all the allowances.
• 14:41
  Anne Fennell: So you've only got independent taxation without any support for families.
• 14:45
  Anne Fennell: So we've kind of gone the other way.
• 14:48
  Anne Fennell: I think it should be a choice.
• 14:49
  Anne Fennell: You can be taxed individually, but if you want to be taxed as a household and as families we are dependent on each other, so it's not unreasonable that we should be taxed.
• 14:58
  Anne Fennell: I mean, in a way the principle should be that as a family you should at least have the option of being taxed as a unit and then for you to make your choices as to whether one person works, one person stays at home.
• 15:08
  Anne Fennell: Like we said, we are dependent on each other, so that really needs to be reflected in the way we're taxed as a unit, as a household unit.
• 15:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: Did David Cameron not introduce a regular, wrong way you could transfer your personal allowance?
• 15:18
  Anne Fennell: But it was so small, it was like only if your income is under, only if you're paying the basic rate of tax, and I think you may get something like 200 pounds back a year.
• 15:28
  Anne Fennell: So it's hardly worth paying out the forms.
• 15:30
  Anne Fennell: But it is minimal, but it is in there.
• 15:32
  Anne Fennell: So it could be increased and I think you know, if we are going to start changing that, we could target tax reform to families with children and maybe children under school age, under four years old, that period which is quite intensive and does really need quite a lot of care, physical care.
• 15:47
  Anne Fennell: I mean that we are supporting families at that stage.
• 15:50
  Anne Fennell: Yeah, absolutely so if you're going to cut tax, we could target it to families.
• 15:54
  Elizabeth Willetts: Mm, hmm, I know that you've been asked before.
• 15:57
  Elizabeth Willetts: Are you anti feminist?
• 15:58
  Elizabeth Willetts: Well, there is a home matter.
• 16:00
  Elizabeth Willetts: And what's your response to people Not?
• 16:02
  Anne Fennell: at all.
• 16:02
  Anne Fennell: No, I'm not particularly feminist, but a lot of our members would call themselves maternal feminists, and I think he is really choice and all feminists I think they would say that feminism is about choice, women's choices.
• 16:15
  Anne Fennell: To be able to make the choice which is right for you as a woman and a very significant part of being a woman is motherhood and so to not be allowed to be a mother in the full sense I mean, obviously, if you're working, you're still a mother but to actually to play that role fully, you know, every day, the day to day, caring, especially when they're babies, that's actually.
• 16:33
  Elizabeth Willetts: It's actually, you know, anti-feminist to not allow women that choice yeah, I think as well that companies could definitely play a role, because you get a lot of people you know have a career break, spend time with the children before school and then want to go back to work and sometimes they struggle to go back.
• 16:48
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think it would be brilliant.
• 16:49
  Elizabeth Willetts: I don't understand why companies have loads of grad schemes and take lots of graduates on without a prior experience, but they can't take those people career returners I agree totally and I think I'm on the same pro I don't think you would need overly tweaking for those individuals either and I think you gain many skills and qualities from being at home patients.
• 17:08
  Anne Fennell: You know firefighting argument, solving all sorts of things, timekeeping I think you do lose a little confidence, but you know, I think if you realise that what you're doing is valuable, then you wouldn't lose that confidence, and if you realise that you gain other skills but a return e-ship, that is a good thing.
• 17:24
  Anne Fennell: And also in france, I think, child care is subsidised by companies as well.
• 17:28
  Anne Fennell: So I think it's part government subsidy, part employer subsidy and then family subsidy, so it's not all the burden, isn't all on the stage, as it were, but I suppose those who benefit from it, yeah, put into it as well, so that that could be another option and you've done a lot as well, haven't you in the community?
• 17:45
  Elizabeth Willetts: so you've you know a lot of people.
• 17:47
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think that's something as well that maybe the government forgets is that the drive to push people you know back to work or into work, then a lot you know, community groups etc.
• 17:56
  Elizabeth Willetts: That rely on volunteers suddenly lose and harder to run.
• 18:00
  Anne Fennell: So talk us through what you do in the community and it's been quite a long time because I've been a mother now for about 22 years, so lots of things that I was chair of the pta.
• 18:11
  Anne Fennell: I got involved in local politics a little bit.
• 18:13
  Anne Fennell: I ran a political discussion club.
• 18:15
  Anne Fennell: I read, I did, was one of the people who went into schools and helped do reading things like that, that sort of thing just going in generally.
• 18:21
  Anne Fennell: We started a fencing club.
• 18:23
  Anne Fennell: So when the children were interested in a particular thing, I would sort of get interested in myself, and so we started.
• 18:27
  Anne Fennell: They love star wars and they were always using their lightsabers and fighting each other.
• 18:32
  Anne Fennell: So I thought, oh, let's see if there's a fencing club and there wasn't one, so we started one in our local church.
• 18:37
  Anne Fennell: Yeah, I was involved with the mother and toddler groups.
• 18:40
  Anne Fennell: We also started a drama club for teenagers.
• 18:42
  Anne Fennell: So when my boys were teenagers we ran, did a couple of shows for teenagers.
• 18:46
  Elizabeth Willetts: Kovat stopped that, but I will go back to that I wasn't covered, obviously interrupted if you ever been tempted to return to paid work I have done paid work so when when I needed to.
• 18:57
  Anne Fennell: I was an editor before, so I'm I'm very happy to be paid for some of the working.
• 19:02
  Anne Fennell: Life is gets quite full of unpaid work, but we've always had lodgers to help us pay.
• 19:08
  Anne Fennell: I mean what?
• 19:08
  Anne Fennell: Before we moved I had six boys in a bedroom and a lodger in one bedroom.
• 19:14
  Anne Fennell: So you know, you find ways of earning a bit of money or bring it in.
• 19:18
  Anne Fennell: It's never I don't miss sort of the work as such.
• 19:22
  Anne Fennell: I don't see that as my identity, but I'm very happy yeah, what were you doing before?
• 19:26
  Anne Fennell: you had children.
• 19:27
  Anne Fennell: Yeah, I wasn't editing but it funny enough, I made a decision before that with my husband and when we got, I got married fairly young, I was 23 and he said to me you know, what do you really want to do with your life?
• 19:37
  Anne Fennell: I'd kind of wanted to be in tv and I'd kind of wanted to I don't really know and I said I said I'd like to do a bit of acting, I'd like to maybe teach drama, and he said well, why don't?
• 19:48
  Anne Fennell: We also had this idea that the community wasn't, was sort of dead and we'd like to be involved somehow.
• 19:54
  Anne Fennell: We didn't really know.
• 19:55
  Anne Fennell: It was a kind of ideal and because he had spent like seven years and he was an architect and he had just he was just starting out and I always knew that I wanted to be home when I had children, yeah, we decided that I would give up my work and then see what happened and it was a bit crazy.
• 20:09
  Anne Fennell: We didn't have much money and it was a real step in the dark and I thought, well, I, I said, handed in my notice for the publishing company and I thought this is a really crazy thing to do, but it ends up being one of the best things.
• 20:21
  Anne Fennell: My boss came back to me, said and we don't really want to lose you, why don't you do part time?
• 20:26
  Anne Fennell: Yeah, and he ends up paying me more, which was great.
• 20:29
  Anne Fennell: Oh yeah, he did not start time, and then I I did.
• 20:32
  Anne Fennell: I was asked to direct some plays for my old school, which I absolutely loved, so I was able to put on some shows.
• 20:38
  Anne Fennell: And then I did some drama myself, did a few acts and I got involved in an economics and just started to you don't look at local politics and things like that.
• 20:47
  Anne Fennell: So it was actually a sort of opening up of life rather than closing down.
• 20:52
  Elizabeth Willetts: And then I had children fairly early on as well, so that I do get what you mean I feel, since I've had children I mean I suffered from infertility I would say not myself before having children, actually because I was very closed off became a bit reclusive and actually since having children I come a lot more immersed in the community, found I've made friends.
• 21:11
  Elizabeth Willetts: You know my confidence has actually come back when it had gone.
• 21:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: But I would say that that sometimes people feel they lose themselves when they become a mother.
• 21:19
  Anne Fennell: I feel I found myself, but I know that obviously people have different experiences of Well, I definitely, when I gave up my work, I definitely had a period where I could see that lack of confidence because I didn't have anything to say.
• 21:32
  Anne Fennell: Well, actually, I, you know, I'm a publisher and I didn't really know what I was or what I was sort of doing.
• 21:37
  Anne Fennell: And yeah, it did take time to kind of reestablish who I was and what I was doing.
• 21:43
  Anne Fennell: And even when I had one or two children it was it was more what other people thought about me rather than what I felt about myself.
• 21:50
  Anne Fennell: As in, I was quite happy and I think the most content I've ever been is with a newborn.
• 21:55
  Anne Fennell: I just there's something about, you know, you're absolutely dog-tired, you're tired, you know it's full on, but I was at peace.
• 22:02
  Anne Fennell: I think that's the only way I can describe it.
• 22:04
  Anne Fennell: It was just happy.
• 22:05
  Anne Fennell: So there is this fulfillment which we don't really talk about.
• 22:08
  Anne Fennell: It's not something really showy and there's nothing to sort of show for it, but there is a sort of contentment.
• 22:16
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think there is our society just values, doesn't it?
• 22:18
  Elizabeth Willetts: And I'm probably guilty of this being in recruitment.
• 22:20
  Elizabeth Willetts: That's that question.
• 22:21
  Elizabeth Willetts: You go to a dinner party, or what do you do?
• 22:23
  Elizabeth Willetts: And it's one of the first questions we ask people, and it's we do.
• 22:27
  Elizabeth Willetts: Then place the judgment, don't we, rightly or wrongly?
• 22:29
  Elizabeth Willetts: Or you know, someone might say they're a banker, and then you'd get certain, you know, idea of that type of person in your head might be completely wrong, but I think that we are as a society guilty of that judging people and what they do rather than who they are.
• 22:41
  Elizabeth Willetts: So if someone asks you now at a dinner party, what do you do?
• 22:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: What do you say to them?
• 22:46
  Anne Fennell: I thought about this a lot but I probably don't know what I'd say.
• 22:50
  Anne Fennell: Raising the next generation, or I'm a taxi driver or a hairdresser, I don't know.
• 22:55
  Anne Fennell: Seriously, I think my husband has always been really good on this because he's always told my children New York, your mother does the most important job.
• 23:01
  Anne Fennell: She's like nurturing the next generation.
• 23:03
  Anne Fennell: So he's always been really great on that question.
• 23:06
  Anne Fennell: And the boys, well, apart from them saying I wish you were working because we could have holidays, they kind of value what I do, so that's really nice.
• 23:14
  Anne Fennell: I think it's probably for us to be more creative and find better answers to the question, that we don't just shut other people off, because I suppose you know if we start saying you know I'm raising sick, I suppose it gets easier the more you have.
• 23:27
  Anne Fennell: I suppose if you say I'm raising six sons, people find that either impressive or crazy.
• 23:31
  Anne Fennell: But it made no difference whether it was six or one, you're still raising a child.
• 23:39
  Elizabeth Willetts: So where do you want to see mothers at home, matty?
• 23:42
  Elizabeth Willetts: How would you like the movement to grow?
• 23:44
  Elizabeth Willetts: And where you know, in 20th time, what would you like the role of parents and mothers and caregivers to be in society?
• 23:51
  Elizabeth Willetts: How would you like it changed?
• 23:53
  Anne Fennell: I would like to see that option to be a mother and to care for your own children supported.
• 23:58
  Anne Fennell: I think we're in real danger of losing that option.
• 24:01
  Anne Fennell: That's my greatest fear.
• 24:03
  Anne Fennell: Really, I don't want to see that loss for the next generation, for my children, what they're able to do with their lives.
• 24:09
  Anne Fennell: I want, I think, families should be in control of their own lives and be able to make the choices that they wish.
• 24:15
  Anne Fennell: So that would be my greatest desire that that option is not enough.
• 24:19
  Elizabeth Willetts: There's quite a stigma, isn't there as well, about stay at home dads, and I know that there's obviously some dads that want to stay at home.
• 24:25
  Elizabeth Willetts: I mean, you know, what would you say to them as well?
• 24:28
  Elizabeth Willetts: Well, I think it's both.
• 24:29
  Anne Fennell: I think people sort of think, wow, stay at home dads.
• 24:33
  Anne Fennell: This is what some people say.
• 24:34
  Anne Fennell: It also feels quite erratic choice, doesn't it?
• 24:37
  Anne Fennell: Yeah, some of my best friends are stay at home dads and they're amazing.
• 24:41
  Anne Fennell: I think what a child needs is consistency of care, yeah, and whether a mother or father does it, you know, it's great that one of them is prepared to do that.
• 24:49
  Anne Fennell: We definitely support stay at home dads.
• 24:51
  Anne Fennell: We've chosen to keep the name mothers at home matter because I think the push is to get moms into work and the real drive is that, you know, for moms it's a step backward and we're saying, no, it's not, it's a step forward, it's a radical step.
• 25:03
  Anne Fennell: So we've chosen to focus on mothers and because many mothers do it, to be able to look into the problems that mothers face, particularly whether, that's, you know, some mothers have somewhere that they can go.
• 25:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: That's their sort of support.
• 25:15
  Elizabeth Willetts: I know you did a conference, didn't you, before Christmas.
• 25:17
  Elizabeth Willetts: What support do you offer stay at home moms and parents?
• 25:21
  Anne Fennell: We have groups, so we've got about 13 around the country where moms either meet in person or online.
• 25:28
  Anne Fennell: They're very what's the word?
• 25:30
  Anne Fennell: The individual groups that just sort of get on with it themselves.
• 25:32
  Anne Fennell: So they whoever wants to set one up we just provide support and that the idea really is just to be to have local networking and just support a role as mom at home.
• 25:42
  Anne Fennell: We have a newsletter which comes out twice a year.
• 25:45
  Anne Fennell: We have a Facebook group, a sort of closed group that people Facebook group called.
• 25:49
  Anne Fennell: If someone wants to join I think it's just mothers at home matter, but I think you have to request to join, but it's not.
• 25:54
  Anne Fennell: It's not, yeah, I think just providing and just within our social media, just saying you're doing a great job and you're not the only one, and there are others out there.
• 26:04
  Elizabeth Willetts: So yeah, that's how I found you was on Instagram.
• 26:06
  Elizabeth Willetts: So is it mothers at home matter?
• 26:08
  Elizabeth Willetts: That's right, mothers at home matter, yeah if you want.
• 26:10
  Elizabeth Willetts: I didn't know if some people have people like you know, dashes and stuff.
• 26:14
  Elizabeth Willetts: They're in there in their username.
• 26:16
  Elizabeth Willetts: They weren't available.
• 26:17
  Elizabeth Willetts: So, yeah, if anyone's interested in connecting with Anne, then please do.
• 26:21
  Elizabeth Willetts: We'll put all those links in the show notes.
• 26:23
  Elizabeth Willetts: So please join us.
• 26:25
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, and you know, I guess if anyone wants to set up a local network, this one may be not running in their area.
• 26:30
  Elizabeth Willetts: I'm sure you'd be supportive of that, Definitely.
• 26:33
  Elizabeth Willetts: Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining me today, For giving me more information about mothers at home matter.
• 26:38
  Elizabeth Willetts: I think what you're doing is brilliant and, like you say, it does feel quite a radical choice at the moment, because there's a lot of noise regarding working parents.
• 26:45
  Elizabeth Willetts: So it's so nice that you are a voice for parents that want to stay at home too.
• 26:49
  Elizabeth Willetts: So thank you so much for everything and thank you for having me.
• 26:52
  Elizabeth Willetts: Thank you, Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work it Like A Mom podcast.
• 27:00
  Elizabeth Willetts: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 27:06
  Elizabeth Willetts: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 27:13
  Elizabeth Willetts: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.
• 27:19
  Elizabeth Willetts: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dream.