Latest / Future Christian / Is Evangelicalism Worth Defending? | Bonnie Kristian

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Is Evangelicalism Worth Defending? | Bonnie Kristian · Future Christian

• 0:05
  Martha: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas,
• 0:14
  Martha: and the future of the church.
• 0:18
  Martha: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today Loren Richmond Jr.
• 0:22
  Martha: is in conversation with Bonnie Kristian Bonnie is an experienced journalist skilled in
• 0:29
  Martha: compelling opinion writing, concise news delivery, and meticulous editing.
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  Martha: Her most recent book is In Defense of Evangelicalism: a response to its cultured despisers.
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  Martha: She's also the author of Untrustworthy: The Knowledge Crisis Breaking Our Brains, Polluting
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  Martha: Our Politics. And corrupting Christian community, and A Flexible Faith, Rethinking What It
• 0:55
  Martha: Means to Follow Jesus Today. Her writing on religion, foreign policy, the modern American
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  Martha: right, civil liberties, electoral politics, and more has been published at outlets including
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  Martha: The New York Times, The Week, USA Today, CNN, Politico, The New Atlantis, Reason, and The
• 1:15
  Martha: Daily Beast. A graduate of Bethel Seminary, she lives in Pittsburgh with her husband and
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  Martha: three children. A reminder before we start today's conversation: please take a moment to
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  Martha: possible.
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  Loren: Hey, this is Loren Richmond Jr., and I'm pleased to be joined today by Bonnie Kristian Hello
• 1:59
  Loren: and welcome to the show.
• 2:01
  Bonnie: Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me.
• 2:03
  Loren: Well, anything else you want our listeners to know about you before we begin?
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  Bonnie: man. I mean it would probably be good to to talk a little bit about like my faith isn't
• 2:15
  Bonnie: evangelical.
• 2:17
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: I I grew up in church. my family moved around a lot. I think we moved to like nine different
• 2:24
  Bonnie: places before I graduated high school. up and down the east coast, as far west as Texas, as
• 2:30
  Bonnie: far north as New York. I lived for a year in China. and so we were all over the place and
• 2:36
  Bonnie: attended a a variety of churches. I mean, you know, there th obviously they were not as you
• 2:42
  Bonnie: might expect for one family, not like a super widespread theologically, but a lot of
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  Bonnie: different theol or evangelical churches.
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: and then and and that has that is a is absolutely a part of of my interest in writing this
• 2:58
  Bonnie: book. that that experience of having sort of an unusual like childhood survey of American
• 3:06
  Bonnie: evangelicalism. going into adulthood, I was really put off by and wrestling with like the
• 3:13
  Bonnie: George W. Bush era God and country evangelicalism, which if you're old enough to remember
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  Loren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: that that era, there are a lot of commonalities between like the
• 3:25
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Bonnie: conversations that people were having about God and country back then and the way that we
• 3:33
  Bonnie: talk about it now. The language is different, but there's a lot that was similar.
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  Bonnie: and I was very alarmed by that. And so coming into young adulthood, I found and really
• 3:43
  Bonnie: embraced the Anabaptist tradition, that is still where I've spent the bul the bulk of my
• 3:48
  Bonnie: adult life as a Christian, in a church that started out as independent and Anabaptist and
• 3:54
  Bonnie: then ultimately joined Mennonite Church USA. I'm no longer there 'cause we moved across
• 3:59
  Bonnie: country and I'm now in an Anglican church, but my my theology is still very much Anabaptist.
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  Bonnie: But you know, the funny thing is that that church we were st we were founded mostly by at
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  Bonnie: that point we were all in like our our young twenties. but
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: it was it was started mostly by people who who were in the same place as me, like in that
• 4:20
  Bonnie: sense of like we've gotta get out of like this Bush George W.
• 4:24
  Bonnie: Bush evangelicalism. And yet that church was also, in retrospect, very evangelical.
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  Bonnie: and and so I think that that like that realization as an adult of the what I I I s I think I
• 4:36
  Bonnie: was right to want to get away from what I wanted to get away from.
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  Bonnie: and that church remains enormously influential to me even as I'm not in that tradition
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  Bonnie: formally anymore. But evangelicalism was something bigger and something that had
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: more durable goods and that even as I I sought to get away from wrongs, that I remained in
• 4:58
  Bonnie: that stream and continue to value it now.
• 5:01
  Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. Spiritual practices is something that we ask folks a lot
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  Loren: about. What's a spiritual practice that's been meaningful for you and that you're willing to
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  Loren: share?
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  Bonnie: I think the two things I would share. One, this is something I've been doing for a while
• 5:19
  Bonnie: now, historically less consistently than I liked, but I'm a good I'm on a good run right now
• 5:25
  Bonnie: for 2026. which is you know, my last book before this, it was called Untrustworthy, and it
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  Bonnie: was very much about like our our media environment and our digital environment and and the
• 5:35
  Bonnie: habits that we need to form to be virtuous in that space.
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  Bonnie: And one of the
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  Loren: Mm.
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  Bonnie: recommendations that I came upon while researching that book was first thing in the morning
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  Bonnie: Prayer before phone. like
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: before you pick up like do not make the smartphone the first thing that you pick up and and
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  Bonnie: start your day with that. And it's not like a magic thing, obviously, right?
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  Bonnie: Like there's no guarantee, like, I said a prayer before I did the
• 5:54
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Bonnie: internet. But it's a good thing and it's a like it's a moment to reorient yourself.
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  Bonnie: it's a little bit easier for me now because I got rid of my smartphone, but still like like
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  Bonnie: prayer before I know. Prayer before
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  Loren: my goodness, now we're getting hot takes here. Yeah.
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  Bonnie: Like diving into like the rush of the internet, you know, that continues
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  Loren: Yeah.
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  Bonnie: to be really important to me.
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  Loren: Wow, okay, we should spend the entire interview talking about that decision.
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  Bonnie: Yeah.
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  Loren: But in all seriousness, I am reminded of I think his interview will come out right before
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  Loren: this. Chuck DeGroat there's something in his newest
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  Bonnie: Mm.
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  Loren: book, if you f if you follow his work, about what we behold, we become and that that that
• 6:37
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
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  Loren: little line has just stuck with me so much, to that point that you're sharing about.
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  Bonnie: Yeah, I I mean I I think it's like I said, it's it's not a guarantee, but things
• 6:49
  Loren: Right.
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  Bonnie: sanctification and virtue formation, like these are the results of so many small decisions
• 6:55
  Bonnie: over such a long time. And this is
• 6:57
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: a small decision and a deceptively deceptively simple decision and and you know, not
• 7:01
  Bonnie: something that I manage every single day. The weekends are rough, the children are awake,
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  Bonnie: everything is happening,
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  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Bonnie: but like most days, certainly weekdays, that is something that I found to be really
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  Bonnie: important.
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  Loren: Yeah. Well thanks for sharing that. So I'm I'm interested now.
• 7:19
  Loren: I'm gonna have to go check out Untrustworthy then. we're here today to talk about Bonnie's
• 7:26
  Loren: new book in defense of evangelicalism. And I guess I should somewhat say jokingly, Bonnie,
• 7:33
  Loren: like as a as an author myself of a new book, I wish I had like even a fraction of the The
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  Loren: the buzz, some good, some bad,
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  Bonnie: Ha ha.
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  Loren: right? That you are getting online. hopefully you can take that in jest.
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  Loren: But I I want to start with this. Like you write that your your contention is that
• 7:54
  Loren: evangelicalism isn't perfect, but it's good. So do you want to say more about why that's
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  Loren: important for you?
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  Bonnie: Yeah. So when I first started talking to my editor about this book, which was like early
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  Bonnie: twenty twenty five, I was I was very much on the fence about writing it.
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  Bonnie: partly because I anticipated that this like the buzz that you're describing, including the
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  Bonnie: negative attention, was a real possibility. cer and and not just a possibility, but like
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  Bonnie: necessary if the book is going to accomplish the effect that I would hope that it would have
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  Bonnie: in the discourse. And in my more youthful years I was more eager to be out like fighting on
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  Bonnie: the internet than I am now. And that's that's really not my jam today.
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  Bonnie: And so I was nervous and I was also nervous because You know, I've been in journalism for a
• 8:43
  Bonnie: long time now, and both at Christianity Today and in like secular mainstream newsrooms
• 8:49
  Bonnie: writing for a much broader audience, I have done a lot of observing and writing about
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  Bonnie: evangelicalism and observing the discourse about evangelicalism, and so I know intimately
• 8:59
  Bonnie: how we are spoken about, particularly in the political press.
• 9:03
  Bonnie: and so for me I was grappling with with that reality. And then I was also grappling with,
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  Bonnie: okay, but like when I go to church Sunday morning and when tens of millions of other people
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  Bonnie: in this country in evangelical churches. Like good, healthy, normal evangelical churches go
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  Bonnie: to church on Sunday morning, it is not like that. And there is that that dissonance.
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  Bonnie: And I think, you know, I quote in the book the historian Tommy Kidd, he says that
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  Bonnie: evangelical traditionally was a a word used by journalists and scholars and not by the
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  Bonnie: people in the pews.
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: And like you've read, my mom is a great example of this.
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  Bonnie: When I when I told her I was writing this book and she's been in evangelical churches for
• 9:44
  Bonnie: more than four decades, you know, she was very excited and her one question was, What is an
• 9:48
  Bonnie: evangelical? like it just hadn't I'm sure he's heard that he has to have heard the word,
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  Bonnie: right? He is so squarely
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  Loren: Yeah, yeah.
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  Bonnie: evangelical, but if she hadn't identified with it. And I think that's probably a lot less
• 9:59
  Bonnie: common now than it used to be But I think particularly in this past decade, a lot of people
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  Bonnie: who didn't use that word in the past have started to hear it and have clocked, like, that's
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  Bonnie: about me. That's about my church. But when I look around on Sunday, I don't think we're
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  Bonnie: ruining America. I don't think we're the worst people in this country.
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  Bonnie: I think we're like doing, you know, the Bible studies and the casseroles and like normal
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  Bonnie: stuff. and so it became really important for me the more I wrestled with it and thought
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  Bonnie: about it, to say. You know, this this is a big movement of tens of millions of sinners.
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  Bonnie: There are bad things, past and present. And I don't want to paper over any of that.
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  Bonnie: And I don't want to minimize any of it and say that I don't want to call evil good.
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  Bonnie: But also I want to say there is good here too. And that like normal experience that you've
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  Bonnie: had, that is real and you didn't imagine it. And you can be clear-eyed about what's wrong
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  Bonnie: and also, you know, be unashamed and say this is good and I I'm I'm not wrong.
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  Bonnie: about that and I've seen it and I am working to make it better.
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  Loren: What's coming to mind for some reason is this sort of like the whole generational names of
• 11:08
  Loren: like millennial and Gen Z and Gen X and what
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  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
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  Loren: have you. And like those are completely invented terms that really mean like nothing.
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  Loren: Like it's like my kids will be like, I'm am I Gen Z dad?
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  Loren: I'm like it it means nothing, really. Like it's just
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  Bonnie: Ha ha
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  Loren: a made-up term. And while like certainly sociologists for They're helpful reasons, but they
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  Loren: can become like sort of defining in themselves. And I wonder like that's sort of what you're
• 11:36
  Loren: getting at with this term of evangelical. Like it was helpful and certainly descriptive,
• 11:42
  Loren: right, of some some theological characteristics or even behavioral characteristics, right?
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  Loren: But it has
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  Bonnie: Mm.
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  Loren: the term like taken on a life of its own, I suppose.
• 11:54
  Bonnie: Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. And I like that analogy.
• 11:56
  Bonnie: I'll have to think about that. I've not thought of that before, the the comparing it to
• 12:01
  Bonnie: generations. I I think what I would say is, you know, I'm not like a hung up on the word.
• 12:05
  Bonnie: I've
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  Loren: Yeah.
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  Bonnie: told people, if you are in a relationship, if you are in a ministry context, whatever it may
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  Bonnie: be, and you realize using the word evangelical is gonna make things worse here, then don't
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  Bonnie: use it. That's great, don't use it.
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: but I also think Evangelical like the most convenient word we have for this.
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  Bonnie: There's not another term
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  Loren: Yeah.
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  Bonnie: that requires less explaining. And so for now at least we're stuck with it.
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  Bonnie: And so my thinking is as much as that is messy and complicated.
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  Bonnie: And even now, if someone asked me, you know, perhaps they've not heard of my book and
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  Bonnie: they're like, Are you an evangelical? I would want to know, like, what are what do you think
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  Bonnie: that means before I give you an answer.
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  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: But you know, I think that even if we if we rebranded, if we if we got you know, if we found
• 12:52
  Bonnie: some way to do without that word, I think a lot of the critiques that I'm engaging and that
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  Bonnie: I I find so unsatisfactory and unreflective of that that
• 13:03
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: median experience, I think those critiques would still come, right?
• 13:07
  Bonnie: Because the people, the actual target would still be there.
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  Loren: Right. Yeah. So I I wanted to ask this. I'm thinking about A previous conversation I've had
• 13:18
  Loren: with some mainline leaders on
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  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
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  Loren: this podcast, Catherine Willis Pershy Love at Weems, one who's UCC, one who's UMC.
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  Loren: So very like well within the mainline tradition. Talk about sort of this this theme or this
• 13:32
  Loren: trend within mainline circles of like being embarrassed about the wrong things.
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  Loren: like certainly there's been a liberalizing trend, right?
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  Loren: Within mainline Protestant Christianity to make it more palatable, if you will, to sort of
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  Loren: this secularizing forces within American culture. Similarly, like the question I'm curious
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  Loren: with you, like, do you think there's been a similar, not necessarily acquiescence to
• 13:58
  Loren: secularizing forces, but sort of this embarrassed about the wrong things, if you will,
• 14:03
  Loren: within evangelicalism at large?
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  Bonnie: Yeah, I I think there is. I think it's really fascinating that you guys are having that
• 14:10
  Bonnie: conversation. y I mean, you know, when I when I was in that period of debating whether to
• 14:14
  Bonnie: write the book and I think I tell this story in the book.
• 14:17
  Bonnie: I I was reading a J.I. Packer book for my church. He's an evangelical theologian, and it's
• 14:22
  Bonnie: not an old
• 14:23
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 14:23
  Bonnie: book. It's within the past decade. And so he he's not oblivious to, you know, the sense the
• 14:27
  Bonnie: place of evangelicalism in American society. And he's using the the label over and over
• 14:32
  Bonnie: again, and he's using it like so happily and like as a good thing.
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  Bonnie: And I I was feeling that embarrassment. I was like, why is he not why where are his
• 14:40
  Bonnie: qualifications? Why is he not embarrassed? Why is he just like coming out here and talking
• 14:45
  Bonnie: about it this way? I had like notice that in myself and interrogate it and think about like
• 14:50
  Bonnie: why am I having this reaction? What is embarrassing here?
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  Bonnie: And so, yeah, I mean, look, obviously, and I've said this still in blue in the face, like,
• 14:58
  Bonnie: we when we are wrong, we should heed critique and we should repent and we should pursue
• 15:03
  Bonnie: reform. But repentance and embarrassment are not the same thing.
• 15:06
  Bonnie: And guilt or even shame and embarrassment are not the same thing.
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  Bonnie: And so I think when we're embarrassed, we're thinking about.
• 15:13
  Bonnie: What other people think of us. And if there is anything that we know as as evangelicals, as
• 15:18
  Bonnie: Christians of any stripe, right? It's that what matters far more is what God thinks of us.
• 15:23
  Bonnie: And so I
• 15:24
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
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  Bonnie: think a big part of this project is saying to evangelicals that we don't need to be
• 15:30
  Bonnie: embarrassed of this tradition. to an a tradition to which we and and certainly I owe a great
• 15:36
  Bonnie: deal. Now, for evangelicals as opposed to the mainline I do think there's an interesting
• 15:41
  Bonnie: factor here, which is like a class dynamic, which is to say, you know, modern evangelic like
• 15:47
  Bonnie: the evangelical movement goes back several centuries, but modern evangelicalism comes about
• 15:53
  Bonnie: in the twentieth twentieth century. And at the start of the 20th century, when this the
• 15:58
  Bonnie: split is happening, that becomes the split between evangelicalism and the main line.
• 16:04
  Bonnie: Evangelicals kind of retreat, w or at that point they were called fundamentalists.
• 16:09
  Bonnie: Fundamentalists retreat from
• 16:11
  Loren: Right, right.
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  Bonnie: public life and they're kind of out in the backwoods and they're people that you can talk
• 16:18
  Bonnie: about as like ignorant white trash.
• 16:20
  Loren: Yeah.
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  Bonnie: And so then in the mid century when the when the People who's founded organizations like
• 16:25
  Bonnie: Christianity Today, like the National Association of Evangelicals, when they get together,
• 16:30
  Bonnie: they're really explicitly saying to one another, look, there's a lot of bad stuff going on
• 16:35
  Bonnie: in the world. We have retreated from the public square.
• 16:39
  Bonnie: We want to go back out and participate in like a meaningful way.
• 16:42
  Bonnie: We, you know, we think we have resources to offer. We think we can help, you know, help
• 16:48
  Bonnie: public life in America. And there's a sense in which they they want to be more respectable.
• 16:53
  Bonnie: They want to be involved in those elite conversations in the way that At that point, the
• 16:58
  Bonnie: mainline Protestants were dominating, right? And so I there's something really poignant,
• 17:03
  Bonnie: almost tragic, about like that's the explicit goal. They want to get back in the game.
• 17:08
  Bonnie: And yet here we are 70 years later, and it is still the case that evangelicals are talked
• 17:14
  Bonnie: about as white trash and ignorant and tacky. And there's very often, I think, this kind of
• 17:19
  Bonnie: like class under layer in
• 17:21
  Loren: Hmm.
• 17:21
  Bonnie: some of the the less charitable critiques. And so so
• 17:25
  Loren: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:26
  Bonnie: I think that's the like the tackiness is real and it's not to my taste.
• 17:29
  Bonnie: And and you know I think beauty and excellence, these are all really important.
• 17:33
  Bonnie: And that's not even to mention like theological and political differences, right?
• 17:38
  Bonnie: But Even when I think evangelicals are getting things wrong on any of those levels, like
• 17:42
  Bonnie: Alan Jacobs writes about this in the forward, he says, like even when these when even when
• 17:47
  Bonnie: they drive me nuts, these are my people and I'm not embarrassed to be grouped with them.
• 17:52
  Bonnie: and so that's kind of the distinction that I want to make.
• 17:55
  Bonnie: And and then I think you put it so well, but not being embarrassed about the wrong things.
• 18:00
  Bonnie: we should correct what needs to be corrected, but not not be embarrassed on on like these
• 18:05
  Bonnie: class coded lines.
• 18:06
  Loren: Trying to find the quote here. I think it came from a book I was recently reading by Carolyn
• 18:10
  Loren: Chen, who's a yeah, here it is. a book she wrote a couple years ago, Sociologists of
• 18:14
  Loren: Religion, wrote about the book Work Pray Code, but she talks about sort of about the what
• 18:18
  Loren: you're talking about, the different upwardly mobile status Christians, the religious ladder.
• 18:22
  Loren: You know, Pentecostals become Baptists, Baptists become Methodists, Methodists become
• 18:26
  Loren: Episcopalian. So I think there's certainly
• 18:28
  Bonnie: Mm hmm. Yes, yes, yes, yes. A Methodist is a Baptist who's learned to read.
• 18:33
  Bonnie: Yeah, as the joke goes. Yeah.
• 18:35
  Loren: Right. So I think there's certainly something to that. And I like I have certainly tired of
• 18:40
  Loren: reading the whole like look at like of course culture from twenty years ago looks ridiculous
• 18:45
  Loren: and silly. Like
• 18:46
  Bonnie: Mm.
• 18:47
  Loren: of course it does. so I have certainly tired of reading those books and I think like I don't
• 18:51
  Loren: know, like they're just easy to publish 'cause it's easy to like sort of like laugh at
• 18:56
  Loren: ourselves from twenty years ago, thirty years ago, be like, my goodness,
• 19:00
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 19:01
  Loren: like n and then of course is not to say like There weren't some inherent problems with like
• 19:05
  Loren: purity culture for for for
• 19:07
  Bonnie: Yeah. Yeah.
• 19:08
  Loren: one obvious example. but yeah, I I think you do make a good point.
• 19:12
  Loren: Like there is it's almost like too I don't know, I say this in some seriousness and also
• 19:18
  Loren: some just like it's too easy to pick on evangelicalism, if you will.
• 19:23
  Bonnie: yeah, I and I mean like part of that is I mean I I I'm frank about this in the book.
• 19:28
  Bonnie: Like I think a lot of evangelical culture is kind of cringe.
• 19:31
  Bonnie: Like our movies are not good. I do not listen to C C cr contemporary Christian music, CCM.
• 19:37
  Bonnie: I don't really get why people are into that. but like who c like who cares?
• 19:41
  Bonnie: You know, like we can have those conversations and we can say, like, look, I think the music
• 19:47
  Bonnie: is bad. but ultimately I in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter.
• 19:52
  Bonnie: Like if these people are, you know, in earnest, trying to be faithful, if if listening to
• 19:57
  Bonnie: that music in the car helps them like reorient their attention to God, great.
• 20:02
  Bonnie: Have at it. I'm happy for you.
• 20:04
  Loren: Something I do want to ask about in all this, and I think this is where certainly I come
• 20:09
  Loren: from a mainline context and perspective. And I think this is something like mainline
• 20:14
  Loren: Christianity, progressive Christianity is is wrestling with.
• 20:18
  Loren: Like I think there's these two polarizing forces within like broad American culture that are
• 20:24
  Loren: like, you know, like like Brian Burge suggests, says like really five percent on either
• 20:29
  Loren: side. Of this idea, like certainly there are like these Christian nationalists who are like,
• 20:35
  Loren: we have to have a Christian nation where it's explicitly Christian.
• 20:40
  Loren: And then there's on the other side of like there can be no religious influence whatsoever.
• 20:45
  Loren: We need to have a completely secular society. To me, it seems that the argument or the
• 20:51
  Loren: debate or the conversation is around how much religious influence.
• 20:55
  Loren: So like that's where I might quibble with some things in your book because
• 21:00
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 21:00
  Loren: I'd be like, Well, gosh, do we want religion to have that much influence?
• 21:04
  Loren: So th I guess that's what I'm curious about. Like, how do you navigate those tensions or how
• 21:10
  Loren: might
• 21:11
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 21:11
  Loren: you recommend evangelicalism navigate those tensions?
• 21:15
  Bonnie: Yeah, so for me the hard line is policy and law. you
• 21:20
  Loren: Mm.
• 21:20
  Bonnie: know, I mean I mean I think the First Amendment is extremely clear and not really subject
• 21:24
  Bonnie: for debate on this. Like law in America cannot be sectarian.
• 21:27
  Bonnie: And that is tr as true of religion as it is of any sectarian belief, right?
• 21:31
  Bonnie: Like, just as you
• 21:32
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 21:33
  Bonnie: cannot write a law that says, you know, well, because the Bible says X, it's illegal to do
• 21:37
  Loren: Right.
• 21:38
  Bonnie: Y. You also can't write a law that says, you know, because Karl Marx says X, it's illegal to
• 21:43
  Bonnie: do Y. That's not how laws work in this country. you have to write a law in a way that can
• 21:47
  Bonnie: be, you know approved of by a majority and that is non sectarian.
• 21:51
  Bonnie: I I would note that there is a little bit of a complication there, and this is not unique to
• 21:56
  Bonnie: evangelicalism. I think this is subject to any kind of sectarian perspective, that when we
• 22:01
  Bonnie: have presidents who govern by executive order, it's a little bit easier to kind of try to
• 22:06
  Bonnie: skirt that hard line. And I think that line does need
• 22:09
  Loren: Yeah.
• 22:09
  Bonnie: to be quite clear. And I you know I I think that this is even true of of sectarian
• 22:14
  Bonnie: perspectives that are It y you you can obviously see the danger of that, I think, with the
• 22:19
  Bonnie: GOP, who are gonna be much more likely to be promoting a a a Christian perspective or what
• 22:25
  Bonnie: they are calling a Christian perspective. I think
• 22:28
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 22:29
  Bonnie: it's even a risk with with many Democrats though, particularly on Topics that we would sort
• 22:34
  Bonnie: of call like social issues or culture war issues, where the temptation is to treat their
• 22:39
  Bonnie: perspective as sort of like the secular neutral. In fact, it's not a neutral.
• 22:43
  Bonnie: It is a perspective that you
• 22:45
  Loren: Yeah.
• 22:46
  Bonnie: have to argue for, right? So the the law and policy thing is a bright line for me.
• 22:50
  Bonnie: Outside of that though, you know, I I think we have to to think about like politeness and
• 22:55
  Bonnie: prudence, but ultimately religious people like and not just evangelicals, people of any
• 23:00
  Bonnie: religion, I think, you know, should not have to hide our faith in public.
• 23:04
  Bonnie: And this is true of politicians as well. You know, I can imagine if a politician ran for
• 23:09
  Bonnie: office not talking about why his that his faith was motivating his perspectives, and then he
• 23:14
  Bonnie: got into office and it came out that that his beliefs are actually, you know, deeply tied to
• 23:20
  Bonnie: his faith. And I had voted for him, I I would feel quite tricked.
• 23:23
  Bonnie: Like I want to know why you think the way you think, and you need to be open about that.
• 23:28
  Bonnie: and so I do think, you know, if you are trying to get from that place of sort of like
• 23:33
  Bonnie: transparent political or political and religious expression across that bright line to law,
• 23:38
  Bonnie: it might be a matter of prudence to like translate into something that is more widely
• 23:43
  Bonnie: acceptable, right? But I I think the reality is that a lot of people Who do not engage in
• 23:48
  Bonnie: politics professionally cannot translate, or they're unwilling to translate.
• 23:52
  Bonnie: It's just not how they they work. And I think this makes a lot of sense when you think about
• 23:57
  Bonnie: what are the what are the two places that the average person is gonna talk about justice.
• 24:03
  Bonnie: It's gonna be politics and it's gonna be church. And so I think it's just so natural for
• 24:08
  Bonnie: many people that these things bleed together and that they can't that the the political
• 24:12
  Bonnie: vocabulary comes out very religious. and you know, I under s like sincerely I understand why
• 24:18
  Bonnie: if you are someone who's been raised religious or you or you've deconverted, it it feels
• 24:23
  Bonnie: like, well, why are you trying to bring that in here? I get that, but My contention is like
• 24:28
  Bonnie: it it's actually not it's not a sign of a threat. It's not necessarily like Christian
• 24:33
  Bonnie: nationalism does exist and there are people who openly embrace that label and argue for
• 24:37
  Bonnie: horrible things. But the average evangelical or other Christian or or someone of any
• 24:42
  Bonnie: religion who is speaking religiously in political context most of the time, I do not think
• 24:47
  Bonnie: that's a threat. I think it is, generally speaking, a sign that they are really trying to
• 24:52
  Bonnie: take things seriously and like bring their best ethical resources to bear.
• 24:57
  Loren: You could probably speak to this better than I could from your role as a as a journalist.
• 25:02
  Loren: But like certainly there's there's plenty example now of folks with a Muslim faith
• 25:07
  Loren: background
• 25:08
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 25:08
  Loren: ascending to political office. Certainly mom momdani in New York.
• 25:10
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 25:13
  Loren: I th I'm blanking on his name. Michigan. Yeah. Like Yeah, yeah, I think that's
• 25:15
  Bonnie: The there's a Senate candidate in Michigan, right? El Sayed, is that right?
• 25:21
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Loren: right. So like I would like certainly mom Donnie and Elsie had have some different
• 25:26
  Loren: theological perspectives, we'll say, right? Around God and Jesus is a way to say it.
• 25:31
  Loren: And I like I think it should be okay for them to speak about how their faith informs their
• 25:37
  Loren: their political desires, right? And I think
• 25:40
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 25:44
  Loren: I think I feel like Mun Mom Donnie has has dumbed some of that.
• 25:47
  Loren: I wonder like how do we how do we make it okay where a like 'Cause think I think one of the
• 25:53
  Loren: pushbacks folks will hear and maybe you'll argue that this is a a small minority, but I
• 25:58
  Loren: think one of things that that I hear is like, it's these evangelicals who want to speak
• 26:04
  Loren: about their faith, but then like not let Mam Dani
• 26:07
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's that's true. I think that exists.
• 26:13
  Bonnie: what I would say to that is I mean the numbers are different.
• 26:19
  Bonnie: do I
• 26:20
  Loren: Yeah.
• 26:21
  Bonnie: do I want every evangelical, every Christian to be, you know, equally respectful and you
• 26:26
  Bonnie: know, willing to give a hearing to someone who is speaking from a different pers religious
• 26:33
  Bonnie: perspective in the public square? Yes. Like we should be doing that anyway.
• 26:38
  Bonnie: I think the reality is Christianity has been the dominant religion in this country f for the
• 26:44
  Bonnie: entirety of its existence. It is obviously not as well understood as it once was as the
• 26:50
  Bonnie: country becomes less religious, but it is still the religion with which most people in
• 26:56
  Bonnie: America are most familiar.
• 26:58
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 26:58
  Bonnie: I think that familiarity matters to people. whether whether we like that or not, it I think
• 27:04
  Bonnie: that's just a reality. I think that matters in the reception that people get.
• 27:09
  Bonnie: I also think though, you know, when when evangelicals or or Christian any Christian goes in
• 27:15
  Bonnie: the public square and speaks in explicitly religious terms, especially if we if we argue a a
• 27:22
  Bonnie: policy case from scripture,
• 27:24
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 27:25
  Bonnie: that might still be a f politically effective right now.
• 27:28
  Bonnie: Given the numbers of professing Christians in this country, right?
• 27:31
  Bonnie: Because they would say, like, well, that has authority over me in some sense, right?
• 27:36
  Bonnie: And so I'm I'm gonna give heed
• 27:38
  Loren: Yeah.
• 27:38
  Bonnie: to this. as if current trends continue and American continues to deconvert from
• 27:41
  Bonnie: Christianity, that's gonna work less, right? And
• 27:43
  Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:47
  Bonnie: I think we will find ourselves in the position that many Muslim politicians find themselves
• 27:52
  Bonnie: right now, which is that If you're not part of that faith, then arguments from that faith
• 27:57
  Bonnie: are not going to be persuasive to you. and so I think even
• 28:01
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:02
  Bonnie: you know, there are cases where evangelicals have been, you know, not just uninterested or
• 28:06
  Bonnie: unpersuaded, but like disrespectful and dismissive and applying unequal standards, and and I
• 28:11
  Bonnie: think that that is wrong. But just not being persuaded.
• 28:14
  Bonnie: I think that's pretty normal if it's not a faith that you share.
• 28:18
  Bonnie: And so I I think that we're going to get a taste of that increasingly going forward.
• 28:22
  Bonnie: and so that's where I would come back to that idea of like, you know, it's probably prudent
• 28:27
  Bonnie: to try to translate. You I think you should be honest, but when it gets when it comes down
• 28:32
  Bonnie: to be like actually policy making and wheeling and dealing, probably you want to talk in
• 28:37
  Bonnie: like non-sectarian terms.
• 28:39
  Loren: Yeah. A and I should point out like you do make a point of noting in the book that like if
• 28:44
  Loren: your advice is like if you can't be non sectarian
• 28:47
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 28:48
  Loren: or I can't I can't remember how you phrase it, but you do point out like like the who's the
• 28:52
  Loren: Kentucky clerk, like sh you say, Don't be that. Yeah. Kim Davis, like don't be Kim Davis.
• 28:56
  Bonnie: Yes, yeah. So that's the the case I had in mind. Her n Kim Davis.
• 29:00
  Bonnie: she sh yeah. I mean so yeah, and for those who don't remember her case, she was the the town
• 29:06
  Bonnie: I think it was town clerk or county clerk
• 29:09
  Loren: Yeah.
• 29:10
  Bonnie: when gay marriage became legal because of Abergaffel V Hodges and she she wanted to retain
• 29:15
  Bonnie: her job but not marry gay couples. And so my argument is not, you know, there are many
• 29:20
  Bonnie: elected roles and I don't recall if she was elected or not, but there are many elected
• 29:25
  Bonnie: official positions, especially lawmakers and the president, where we do elect people for
• 29:30
  Bonnie: their perspective, right? And so I want to hear from them, like I was saying.
• 29:34
  Bonnie: but there are also
• 29:36
  Loren: Yeah.
• 29:37
  Bonnie: roles like hers that are more straightforwardly administrative and their job is not to make
• 29:42
  Bonnie: the law or to set policy but simply to execute. And if you know I think if you're in a law
• 29:47
  Bonnie: if you're in a role like that, you you have to follow the law, right?
• 29:51
  Bonnie: Like we we can't just have there there's a role for civil disobedience, but civil
• 29:56
  Bonnie: disobedience in this case would you mean you have to accept the consequences and in this
• 30:01
  Bonnie: case it would mean losing your job. And so I think the appropriate thing for her to do was
• 30:06
  Bonnie: to resign, if she couldn't fulfill that that role in good conscience.
• 30:10
  Bonnie: obviously it would be a little bit different if she were a lawmaker, right?
• 30:14
  Bonnie: Who who is explicitly in invited to share her perspective.
• 30:18
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 30:19
  Bonnie: but you know, if she did resign and she wanted to try to get her job back in a way that she
• 30:24
  Bonnie: could do it in good conscience, well, that would mean changing the law.
• 30:28
  Bonnie: And that would mean advocacy. and so then at that point, you know, I think we have to say,
• 30:34
  Bonnie: Well, great, I mean that's that's what you do in a democracy and it's not her seeking to
• 30:39
  Bonnie: impose her perspective, she's just participating in the democratic process like anyone else.
• 30:45
  Loren: Sure, sure. And, you know, obviously there folks may quibble with it, but I think your
• 30:49
  Loren: broader point makes sense. something that I feel like is influencing this conversation, at
• 30:54
  Loren: least from my perspective, that I want to ask you about is I think like, and I'm thinking
• 30:58
  Loren: about this with like there was just an a sub stack I read about, like there's actually like
• 31:03
  Loren: an interesting amount of like mainline passers running for center, like Senate and political
• 31:08
  Loren: office.
• 31:09
  Bonnie: Yeah, I've seen I've seen reporting on this as well. The i it's not that
• 31:14
  Loren: So
• 31:14
  Bonnie: many, but it's it's unusual.
• 31:17
  Loren: And I guess what I want to ask of this, and to use like the the three thousand pound grill
• 31:21
  Loren: or whatever the metaphor is, like certainly Charlie Kirk in that conversation from this, I
• 31:26
  Loren: think like and this is where I'm curious your for your perspective.
• 31:29
  Loren: Like I feel like there's been this like this trend within American Christianity, like, and I
• 31:34
  Loren: mean this from like all sides of like s what
• 31:37
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 31:37
  Loren: I could what I say is like a sacralizing of politics, where like the ultimate sign of one's
• 31:43
  Loren: discipleship or or faithfulness to Christianity is through political advocacy or action.
• 31:50
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 31:52
  Loren: Like what do you what is that what comes to mind for you?
• 31:56
  Bonnie: I think that's that's real. you know, I wrote a I wrote an article for the New York Times a
• 32:01
  Bonnie: few years ago about this this pattern in Anabaptist communities in America.
• 32:05
  Bonnie: Not all of them, but in many of them, what has happened is you know, historically
• 32:10
  Bonnie: Anabaptists extremely skeptical of any kind of engagement with the state.
• 32:14
  Bonnie: Like in the most traumatic cases, like like the Amish, they're gonna, you know, refuse to
• 32:19
  Bonnie: they're gonna opt out of the draft, they're gonna refuse to pay taxes if it funds wars.
• 32:24
  Bonnie: And that's like this longstanding tradition. And what's what seems to be happening, and and
• 32:29
  Bonnie: this is not an observation unique to me, scholars of Anabaptism have said this as well.
• 32:34
  Bonnie: They have come to in America, mod many modern Anabaptists have started to think in the terms
• 32:39
  Bonnie: you're describing of, you know, if we're serious about our faith, if we're serious about
• 32:44
  Bonnie: peace and justice, well we have to go do politics about it.
• 32:48
  Bonnie: And because there is the whole history of of in their tradition of engagement with the state
• 32:53
  Bonnie: has been like basically don't. They there's no theological resources to think about, well,
• 32:58
  Bonnie: how do we do this in a way that is like a limited way and not like this becomes such an
• 33:03
  Bonnie: important thing for us. And so in many spaces, you know, that you hear them talk about
• 33:08
  Bonnie: politics, they sound just like any other Democrat. And then there's also breakaway groups
• 33:13
  Bonnie: that are more theologically conservative and they're, you know, like having having service
• 33:18
  Bonnie: members stand up for applause in their services in a way that would have you know, like Men
• 33:23
  Bonnie: of Simon's rolling in his grave. so I think this is an extreme example, right?
• 33:28
  Bonnie: Because it's such a contrast from that specific tradition.
• 33:31
  Bonnie: But yes,
• 33:32
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 33:35
  Bonnie: I think that that is a wider pattern where we think if we're serious about this, we have to
• 33:41
  Bonnie: do politics and make the government do something about it with the force of law.
• 33:46
  Bonnie: And sometimes we do have to, you know, sometimes that is an appropriate solution.
• 33:51
  Bonnie: But I think a lot of times. a better thing and something that's actually within our power is
• 33:58
  Bonnie: going to be something that doesn't involve the force of law and something that is much more,
• 34:04
  Bonnie: you know, local and peaceable and and church centered, rather than g you know, running off
• 34:10
  Bonnie: to Washington to help us.
• 34:12
  Loren: Yeah, I mean I I think it like it really is, like you said, it's it can be really
• 34:16
  Loren: complicated when we look at, you know, like I don't remember if you talk about, for
• 34:20
  Loren: instance, civil rights, but certainly like that's something that I feel like the right
• 34:25
  Bonnie: Yes.
• 34:25
  Loren: thing was done and we'd wanna say like yeah, so I don't I don't wanna pretend to have all
• 34:30
  Loren: the the the the answers here, let alone all the questions.
• 34:34
  Loren: But I think this is something you write about in your book that I think w as a society
• 34:39
  Loren: Especially as a Christian the Christians within our society are continuing to wrestle with
• 34:45
  Loren: this. Cause you write about the privatization of faith.
• 34:48
  Loren: And certainly there's
• 34:50
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 34:50
  Loren: been lots of other sociological conversations around this.
• 34:53
  Loren: Like, broadly speaking, American culture, like everybody's okay with you being whatever, as
• 34:58
  Loren: long as like you do it in private, right? And
• 35:01
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 35:02
  Loren: I and I'm of this opinion too. Like, I don't think Christianity works just as a hobby.
• 35:08
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I I think it's a big part of this really goes back to the increasing
• 35:14
  Bonnie: irreli irreliosity in America, right? It
• 35:18
  Loren: Yeah.
• 35:19
  Bonnie: is increasingly we have never before been in a place where there are so many people who are
• 35:24
  Bonnie: not just deconverted, not just said like, this is not for me, but people who were raised
• 35:29
  Bonnie: without any religious context, not just any Christian context, but any religious context, to
• 35:34
  Bonnie: understand at that really basic level, how does religion work?
• 35:38
  Bonnie: And I think that that sense that that religion is something that involves the whole of your
• 35:43
  Bonnie: life. It is not something that can happen just inside the sanctuary or just inside your
• 35:48
  Bonnie: home. i I scripture is really clear about this, right? And this is not just a an evangelical
• 35:54
  Bonnie: perspective. I think in the book I quoted Pope Leo about this.
• 35:58
  Loren: Yeah.
• 35:59
  Bonnie: it it is unmistakable that it's something that has to shape your whole life.
• 36:02
  Bonnie: And so you know, it's that's something that's hard to explain.
• 36:06
  Bonnie: I there was a a really striking example during this came up repeatedly during the pandemic
• 36:10
  Bonnie: where people would argue, you know, with wonderful intentions.
• 36:13
  Bonnie: You know, you need to stay home from church on Sunday because I'm also staying home from
• 36:18
  Bonnie: brunch and from my book club. And for for Christians, it was like, well, you know, maybe we
• 36:23
  Bonnie: do need to stay
• 36:24
  Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:26
  Bonnie: home, but that's not why. Like these are not the same things.
• 36:29
  Bonnie: and so I think as Christians we have to adapt and we have not yet fully figured out how to
• 36:35
  Bonnie: adapt to this irreligious context. we have to I think be willing to explain ourselves in
• 36:40
  Bonnie: ways that we didn't have to previously. we we can't just, you know, sort of assert claims
• 36:46
  Bonnie: and expect that we'll be understood. We we have to actually take the time and be like, no,
• 36:51
  Bonnie: this is how it works and this is what's expected of me to to be faithful in this context.
• 36:57
  Loren: Well, it's it's really interesting you you mentioned COVID again and that church
• 37:02
  Loren: participation because like there was I mean, I think that that illustrates how society
• 37:07
  Loren: thinks about it is like it's just book club. And and you know, frankly, I've I've heard that
• 37:13
  Loren: in I like I've heard that
• 37:15
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 37:16
  Loren: in mainline context, mainline church context. And I was like, No, this is not it.
• 37:20
  Loren: Like I no,
• 37:21
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 37:22
  Loren: like I cannot do this if church is just book club. And certainly like I'll acknowledge like
• 37:27
  Loren: when I was pastoring a church, we did not meet because we felt like it was the the to to us
• 37:32
  Loren: it was the most faithful decision, right? But also like
• 37:36
  Bonnie: Mm.
• 37:37
  Loren: I think it and this is hard for me to admit, I guess for me to say, or it might be hard for
• 37:43
  Loren: some of my listeners besides but I I can imagine I can imagine someone thinking it it is the
• 37:49
  Loren: most faithful thing to them for them to have done is to meet, I guess is what I'm saying.
• 37:55
  Bonnie: Mm.
• 37:55
  Loren: Yeah, and I think that's where this gets really complicated.
• 37:59
  Bonnie: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I think what was what was right to do in that moment this is not the
• 38:03
  Bonnie: time or place to relitigate all of COVID probably. I think what was right to do in that
• 38:07
  Bonnie: moment was with
• 38:08
  Loren: Come on, Bonnie, let's get into it. Masks are no masks.
• 38:12
  Bonnie: was such something on which reasonable people, like, you know, with very limited
• 38:16
  Bonnie: information, could disagree at that time. And you know, looking back it's not the same.
• 38:22
  Bonnie: But yeah, I think that that point of maybe you do decide that it's the right thing to do to
• 38:27
  Bonnie: close. But it's not because it's just book club. It's not because this is a small thing that
• 38:33
  Bonnie: like you should be able to so easily set aside like brunch, like your hobby for the sake of
• 38:38
  Bonnie: the broader good. Like the it's not that. And that kind it was just so fascinating to see
• 38:44
  Bonnie: how many people you know, I they weren't being malicious.
• 38:47
  Bonnie: Like I think they said it without a second thought. Like, you know, if I if I'm missing out
• 38:53
  Bonnie: on my fun things, you miss out on your hobby.
• 38:56
  Loren: Yeah.
• 38:57
  Bonnie: And and so I think, yeah, we we have to keep explaining it's not a hobby.
• 39:01
  Bonnie: it is actually something, you know, that makes real claims on us and that if we are serious
• 39:08
  Bonnie: about it we have to to to obey those claims.
• 39:11
  Loren: Yeah. I suppose one I I'm keeping it here a while, but I wanna ask you one more semi hard
• 39:18
  Loren: question, if I may. I just wrote a substack on my own my own substack about how like how I
• 39:25
  Loren: see secularizing forces or progressive secular forces influencing mainline Christianity in a
• 39:33
  Loren: way that like it's it's hard to like So I guess what I'm saying is this, like in a way to
• 39:40
  Loren: make themselves make us more understandable, relatable to secular and I'm using that term
• 39:48
  Loren: not disparagingly, but non, you know, non Christian context,
• 39:53
  Bonnie: Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:56
  Loren: like we've used that language, and I mean mainline Protestant, we often or occasionally I
• 40:02
  Loren: should say, like downplaying the more again, this is where I use the word embarrassing or
• 40:09
  Loren: supernatural claims. But
• 40:11
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 40:12
  Loren: I think the the rub can be like those those frameworks or those sort of language, like the
• 40:18
  Loren: the outside forces become influential than we might like within the Christian spaces.
• 40:24
  Loren: And I wonder like how do you see how do you see, if I may, similar things happening within
• 40:31
  Loren: like evangelicalism where like in a in an effort to be more relatable or more understandable
• 40:38
  Bonnie: Mm.
• 40:39
  Loren: to to non Christian spaces, like do you do you think that similar trends have happened?
• 40:42
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I maybe. I I think it does look different.
• 40:47
  Bonnie: I don't think we have the same temptation to veer away from some of the supernatural stuff.
• 40:57
  Bonnie: i i
• 40:58
  Loren: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:59
  Bonnie: I mean, stop me if th if this sounds unfair, but I I think sometimes you you will hear about
• 41:03
  Bonnie: in mainline context people who are not necessarily even committed to the bodily resurrection
• 41:07
  Bonnie: of Christ anymore. Like we don't really have that problem.
• 41:10
  Bonnie: I think where evangelicalism tends to go awry in this in a similar pursuit.
• 41:14
  Bonnie: evangelicalism and an This is this is not my idea. This is something many scholars have
• 41:18
  Bonnie: observed. It's very entrepreneurial. We're very willing to like try new things and think,
• 41:22
  Bonnie: like, will this work? You know? And sometimes
• 41:25
  Loren: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 41:28
  Bonnie: it does. Like sometimes that's really good. But sometimes it means that we try new things,
• 41:33
  Bonnie: new technologies, new like styles of worship, like the secret-sensitive movement, these
• 41:37
  Bonnie: kinds of things, right? We try them,
• 41:40
  Loren: Modulus unit principle.
• 41:42
  Bonnie: we try them without thinking through. The theological implications sufficiently, like, you
• 41:48
  Bonnie: know,
• 41:49
  Loren: Yeah.
• 41:49
  Bonnie: this isn't just a new style, it actually meaningfully changes how you worship and how you
• 41:54
  Bonnie: think about God and each other. I think we we can be a little bit too slapdash in trying
• 41:59
  Bonnie: stuff with good intentions, but good intentions are not sufficient.
• 42:02
  Bonnie: We have to actually stop and and think about not just could this work, but what does this
• 42:08
  Bonnie: mean? What are we saying with this?
• 42:10
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, last question here before we take a break.
• 42:13
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 42:14
  Loren: I mentioned in our email conversation something else that's Michelle Van Loon, who's an
• 42:18
  Loren: author and evangelical, wrote a book a year or two ago, the idea of downsizing
• 42:23
  Loren: evangelicalism.
• 42:24
  Bonnie: Mm.
• 42:25
  Loren: I'm in in many ways she's talking about sort of these institutions that have become so
• 42:30
  Loren: influential within evangelicalism. And and I think if I if I can hopefully speak to her
• 42:36
  Loren: ethos right, is
• 42:37
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 42:37
  Loren: sort of this idea of like maybe not. taking ourselves and she means evangelicalism like
• 42:42
  Loren: quite quite so seriously or quite so
• 42:45
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 42:45
  Loren: authoritatively. And I'm curious like it how does that how does that bring to you?
• 42:52
  Bonnie: Yeah. So I I hadn't before you mentioned her, I was not familiar with her, so I've not read
• 42:57
  Bonnie: her book, so I'll do caveats. But what I did read about her, including in the the transcript
• 43:02
  Bonnie: of your conversation with her, there was a lot that I liked, you know, the sense that she's
• 43:07
  Bonnie: not she's very willing to critique, but without like also without but also refusing to lose
• 43:13
  Bonnie: sight of the the real goods there.
• 43:15
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 43:16
  Bonnie: you know, and not I my my first book, which is going on a decade old at this point, it's
• 43:21
  Bonnie: called A Flexible Faith. It it was of a similar spirit of trying to say, like, look, there
• 43:27
  Bonnie: is a there is a core here of Christianity, and there are also these things that like s what
• 43:32
  Bonnie: I would call secondary theological issues, things that divide denominations, they're not at
• 43:38
  Bonnie: that creedal
• 43:39
  Loren: Yeah.
• 43:39
  Bonnie: level. They're really important, right? Like they're a deal, and also like Orthodox
• 43:43
  Bonnie: Christians have disagreed on these things, little O Orthodox.
• 43:47
  Bonnie: and you know it's okay to like think about what other people are thinking about and and
• 43:52
  Bonnie: maybe, maybe you change your mind on one of these things rather than elevating everything to
• 43:57
  Bonnie: that creedal level, which I think sometimes Christians have been prone to do.
• 44:02
  Bonnie: So that if you if you disagree, if if you venture, you know, even a small critique of, you
• 44:07
  Bonnie: know, I I think maybe maybe I'm changing my mind on this.
• 44:11
  Bonnie: It's like, no, everything's going off the rails, right?
• 44:14
  Bonnie: Some some things are secondary, which is not to
• 44:17
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:18
  Bonnie: say unimportant, but secondary. The other thing that comes to mind on this though, I again
• 44:23
  Bonnie: not having read her book, but from what you're describing, what I read, it sounds like
• 44:28
  Bonnie: something that may kind of be organically happening potentially
• 44:32
  Loren: Mm.
• 44:33
  Bonnie: insofar as it's about institutions, organically happening as a side effect and and perhaps
• 44:38
  Bonnie: hopefully a a good side effect of just like larger trends of loss of institutional
• 44:42
  Bonnie: connection in America, right? I mean, I I think I've I wrote about this a bit in a in an
• 44:47
  Bonnie: article for Comment magazine. the historian George Marisden has this well-known quip that an
• 44:52
  Bonnie: evangelical is anyone who likes Billy Graham. and I talked to Marston recently for a webinar
• 44:57
  Bonnie: that Christianity Today did, and I said, like, you know, if you were to update that clip for
• 45:02
  Bonnie: today that quip for today Is can you say it? Can you update it?
• 45:06
  Bonnie: Is there someone else that you could say an evangelical is anyone who likes this person?
• 45:11
  Bonnie: And he said no. And I think that that's right. we are we are not
• 45:15
  Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 45:17
  Bonnie: like one unified movement and and that's true of institutions as much as f prominent figures
• 45:20
  Bonnie: like that. I I don't think about like focus on the family in the nineteen nineties, which I
• 45:24
  Bonnie: think Van Loon discusses, there's not a modern day analogue to that that we're all attending
• 45:28
  Bonnie: to, right? Yeah, and I and I
• 45:30
  Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Huge cultural influence then. Yeah.
• 45:36
  Bonnie: really I think we're so much more fragmented and I don't see us going back to that kind of,
• 45:42
  Bonnie: you know, such broad, even cross-denominational loyalty to institutions and figures.
• 45:47
  Bonnie: And there are downsides to that, but there can also be good things.
• 45:52
  Loren: Yeah. Okay. Bonnie, I'm I'm making you work here, but I I really want to ask this question
• 45:56
  Loren: too if this is okay. This is something
• 45:59
  Bonnie: Okay.
• 45:59
  Loren: I've been thinking about and I think it fits with what you just said there.
• 46:02
  Loren: Like I have wondered, like I think can there be and I I don't like this term, but I've not
• 46:07
  Loren: thought of a better term for it. Like can there be space for like a purple Christianity?
• 46:11
  Loren: And what I mean by that is like we know that there's gonna be like the what was it, William
• 46:16
  Loren: Wolf or whatever his name is. Like there's gonna be those guys like on the far right who
• 46:21
  Bonnie: yeah, yeah, I know who you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:25
  Loren: I think like their faith is more about nationalism than it is about faith, to be honest.
• 46:29
  Loren: And like I'm gonna throw some shade at my own context. Like there's some folks within my
• 46:34
  Loren: context, mainline context, who like I I'm just not sure, like I've written about this.
• 46:38
  Loren: Like, I'm not sure we're practicing the same religion. Like, let's be honest.
• 46:43
  Bonnie: Hmm. Yep.
• 46:45
  Loren: So, like, I wonder, like, do you think there's a way forward for those of us who are like,
• 46:50
  Loren: Like I probably have some different feelings around
• 46:53
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 46:55
  Loren: abortion, sexuality, gay marriage
• 46:56
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 46:59
  Loren: than other Christians. But I think like kind of what you said, yeah, I I suppose I'm
• 47:03
  Loren: rambling here and I'm I might be putting you in a tough spot, but I'm just curious, like,
• 47:08
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 47:08
  Loren: do you think there's a way forward of like saying, Hey, like what really matters is like
• 47:12
  Loren: this thing is real, like God is real,
• 47:14
  Bonnie: Mm-hmm.
• 47:16
  Loren: whether it's like yeah.
• 47:20
  Bonnie: I hope so. I I don't know that it I mean with the big caveat that I don't know that it means
• 47:24
  Bonnie: institutional unity. Whether at the scale
• 47:26
  Loren: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:28
  Bonnie: of can we worship together on Sunday morning or even is there some kind of big national
• 47:33
  Bonnie: association that we're all into together, right? I don't know that that happens.
• 47:39
  Loren: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Bonnie: certainly I think that I think that it is possible and I think that in practice It very
• 47:43
  Bonnie: often is the case already that at the local scale, you know, you're okay with each other.
• 47:47
  Bonnie: It's not y and
• 47:48
  Loren: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah.
• 47:52
  Bonnie: that's not to say that nobody's ever having like a little bit of a joke at someone else's
• 47:55
  Bonnie: expense, right? But like generally speaking, it's like, yeah, like that church is not for
• 47:58
  Bonnie: me, but you know, I appreciate what they're doing over there with this or that program or
• 48:02
  Bonnie: what have you. Yeah.
• 48:03
  Loren: Yeah. Cause like I was gonna say this earlier in the conversation.
• 48:07
  Loren: Like I interact with evangelicals like at least on a weekly basis.
• 48:11
  Loren: And like I don't identify as a big E evangelical, for instance, and I'm not sure like
• 48:17
  Bonnie: Mm.
• 48:18
  Loren: I'd not e I'm not sure I totally want to be a part of a big E evangelical church, but like
• 48:22
  Loren: like I can recognize there's like there's like in my city in Denver, Metro Lurk, there's so
• 48:27
  Loren: much and it's this is I think goes back to your book, like there's so much good work.
• 48:32
  Loren: Faithful work being done
• 48:34
  Bonnie: Mm.
• 48:34
  Loren: by evangelicals to make a difference in their community.
• 48:37
  Loren: So let me let me since I don't want to keep you too long, let me run through some closing
• 48:42
  Loren: questions here with you.
• 48:44
  Bonnie: Okay.
• 48:46
  Loren: we always ask people if they're pope for a day. So let's reimagine this.
• 48:50
  Loren: You are you you are somehow pope of evangelicalism, whether worldwide or in America.
• 48:55
  Loren: You can
• 48:56
  Bonnie: Okay.
• 48:59
  Loren: determine how how broadly you want to think about this question.
• 49:01
  Loren: Like
• 49:02
  Bonnie: Yeah.
• 49:02
  Loren: What do you want to do? Like do you have a do you have a papal decree?
• 49:05
  Loren: Do you have something you want to do that day? Like what what would you offer?
• 49:09
  Bonnie: Well, number one, I'm really excited that I've replaced C.S.
• 49:11
  Bonnie: Lewis in this role, because he's our Pope forever.
• 49:14
  Loren: Okay.
• 49:15
  Bonnie: you know, more s more seriously, I think I would say everyone has to read like a good church
• 49:18
  Bonnie: history textbook. Like you just all gotta sit down
• 49:21
  Loren: Hmm.
• 49:22
  Bonnie: and read it straight through. you know, and something that is not written with an eye to,
• 49:28
  Bonnie: you know, like burnish our reputations or, you know, just
• 49:32
  Loren: Yeah.
• 49:32
  Bonnie: reveal to you every horror. Something that is like, we're just gonna like look at what is
• 49:36
  Bonnie: there and that is both good and bad.
• 49:38
  Loren: Okay. a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
• 49:45
  Bonnie: would have to go with Dorothy Sayers.
• 49:48
  Loren: Okay.
• 49:49
  Bonnie: Big Dorothy Sayers fan. Some of her theology, theological works are just so great.
• 49:53
  Bonnie: she has a great play about the Emperor Constantine that she's trying to do too much in the
• 49:59
  Bonnie: play, frankly. She's got like meditations on on how you know how Christians should relate to
• 50:04
  Bonnie: the state and to power. She's doing how we made the Nicene Creed.
• 50:08
  Bonnie: There's a lot going on, but it's really interesting. And I'm also just a sucker for the
• 50:13
  Bonnie: mystery novels. So hitting a checking a lot of boxes
• 50:17
  Loren: Sure, sure.
• 50:18
  Bonnie: for me.
• 50:19
  Loren: Sure. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place?
• 50:23
  Bonnie: Hm. So I'm stealing this and I can't remember where I read it and so I c I can't give
• 50:27
  Bonnie: credit. I'm sorry to whoever you were. But I recently
• 50:30
  Loren: Mm-hmm.
• 50:31
  Bonnie: saw someone say that They hope that what is remembered is actually like the and not that
• 50:35
  Bonnie: we're the only ones who do this, but like the evangelical quiet time, that there was this
• 50:39
  Bonnie: large group of people who thought it is really important for me to sit down and dedicate
• 50:43
  Bonnie: these few minutes every day to reading scripture and to prayer.
• 50:46
  Bonnie: That is not something that's existed throughout church history, number one, because so many
• 50:51
  Bonnie: people weren't literate. but we have that opportunity
• 50:54
  Loren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 50:57
  Bonnie: and it is something that so many people continue to prioritize, and I I think that's a good
• 51:02
  Bonnie: thing and something worth remembering about. Yeah.
• 51:05
  Loren: That is really interesting. I don't think I've ever heard that answer before.
• 51:09
  Bonnie: Well, whoever came up with it was so smart.
• 51:13
  Loren: what do you hope for the future of Christianity?
• 51:17
  Bonnie: You know, I I mean we live we have particular worries in a particular moment, but I think
• 51:22
  Bonnie: that the the hope and the solutions is a little bit too glib.
• 51:25
  Bonnie: But the solutions are are always basically the same. because People are always basically the
• 51:31
  Bonnie: same and God is always the same. And so I think my hope would have to be the same as always,
• 51:36
  Bonnie: which would be, you know, that we would be more loving, we would be more faithful, we would
• 51:42
  Bonnie: be imitating Jesus more, we would be studying scripture more, we would be serving our
• 51:47
  Bonnie: neighbors more. and I think that's kind of always gotta be the answer that you give.
• 51:52
  Loren: Yeah. Hard to go wrong there. Hard to go wrong being more Christ like.
• 51:56
  Loren: Share if you would, how folks can connect with you, get a copy of the book, all that stuff.
• 52:03
  Bonnie: The book should be available wherever books are sold. I tell people when they ask me the
• 52:07
  Bonnie: best place to buy it, that the best place for your local community is probably a local
• 52:12
  Bonnie: bookstore. The best place for me in this algorithm-driven book selling
• 52:16
  Loren: Amazon.
• 52:17
  Bonnie: age is Amazon. As far as where you can so you know, sort that out with your conscience, as
• 52:22
  Bonnie: far as where you can find me.
• 52:24
  Loren: Ha ha ha
• 52:26
  Bonnie: Probably Substack is the best place. It's just my name, Bonnie Christian.com, and typically
• 52:33
  Bonnie: I am posting weekly. Yeah.
• 52:35
  Loren: Okay. Well you're acne, so you'll get this, Bonnie, even though
• 52:37
  Bonnie: Yes.
• 52:38
  Loren: you're evangelical, we always leave someone, folks, with a word of peace.
• 52:40
  Loren: So may God's peace be with you.
• 52:42
  Bonnie: Okay. And also with you. Although we're supposed to say and with your spirit, so maybe I'm
• 52:47
  Bonnie: wrong. Yeah. They Okay.
• 52:49
  Loren: okay, okay. I can I can work with that. Peace.
• 52:54
  Bonnie: Peace.