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Matcha Scene in Thailand · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty March podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan. This is my Coho Sungjun.
0:04
Hello, hello and we're the Co founders of Sank How much
0:07
products? Yeah, we launched this podcast
0:09
to discuss our learning journey much our share startup stories
0:13
and interview experts. And Ryan and I have just left
0:16
Bangkok for a wonderful the Tropic called Burning Sun.
0:20
Very humid too. August in Bangkok.
0:25
Apparently not the worst time to visit from what I've heard
0:28
because it's not like tons of rain, but it was like you were
0:31
swimming with the moment you stepped outside.
0:33
But we cannot wait to share you our wonderful adventure of the
0:38
matcha scene in. Thailand, yeah.
0:40
Well, both Sunjin and I have been in and out of Bangkok for
0:43
years now. I think our first business trip
0:45
there was maybe five years ago we had a couple. 2018 must be.
0:50
Or 2019, one or the other. And we used to do a lot of
0:53
product development in Thailand and did a lot of consumer
0:56
research in Thailand too, but understanding what foods,
1:00
flavors, categories Thai consumers like.
1:02
But at the time, we never really noticed the matcha scene, and it
1:08
feels like when we first started going, even specialty coffee
1:11
wasn't much of a thing. I don't know, there were like 3
1:14
or 4 good places that took some effort to get to.
1:18
Now one, there's an explosion of specialty coffee and there's
1:21
also an explosion of specialty matcha, which we wanted to talk
1:25
about. And in a lot of ways, we think
1:27
it's a more developed specialty much has seen than perhaps
1:31
anywhere in the world, including Japan, from what you can access
1:35
at least as a consumer. Yeah, the the idea of kind of
1:40
adopting and transferring a lot of the notions from specialty
1:45
coffee into much that you don't really see that anywhere else
1:49
other than Thailand. Yeah, and I, I really think it's
1:53
on the leading edge. I've been to a few places in
1:55
Kuala Lumpur that are doing things that feel similar.
1:58
I've heard in Singapore it's hit or miss.
2:01
We know in mainland China here it's hit or miss.
2:03
I was in Korea a few years ago, also the case.
2:06
Then of course I've been to Tokyo and Kyoto which there are
2:09
special TT shops. A lot of them are for tourists
2:13
or a very chana Yu ceremony focus or some of the older
2:17
traditional blending houses for matcha.
2:20
But like walking in to have someone explain to you, OK, this
2:24
drink is Asahi cultivar award-winning, whatever.
2:27
We specifically optimize this recipe for this drink, which is
2:31
completely different than this house made blend that we have,
2:35
which is completely different than this other thing, which
2:37
actually we recommend putting in a latte based on all of the
2:41
sensory characteristics. You just don't have those
2:44
conversations anywhere else. At least we haven't only really
2:48
in Thailand. Yeah, that's right.
2:51
Because for a lot of consumers, especially beginning consumers,
2:54
beginner consumers, it really takes a learning journey for
2:58
them to, you know, get to know what exactly they like or what
3:02
exactly they want to explore. You don't necessarily have that
3:06
kind of opportunity to learn all these informations in other
3:10
places. You know in in a specialty
3:13
coffee shop, when matcha is on the menu, it's an option.
3:18
You know you order it as a matcha latte or a sparkling
3:22
matcha. That's a tonic.
3:24
Matcha tonic. It doesn't really offer you that
3:27
much information other than, you know, it's matcha.
3:30
Maybe, maybe you'll get the location.
3:33
Yeah, maybe you'll get the location.
3:34
Oh, it's Uji or it's like Yame. Kagoshima, Kagoshima.
3:39
But like that's, that's, but in Bangkok, you know, like all of
3:43
these manuals, they're set up in a way that it's almost like a
3:48
user manual for you to, you can construct your own matcha drinks
3:53
based on the cultivar, based on what kind of addition you, you
3:57
would like to put in. If you like a vegan milk or if
4:00
you like a pure milk as addition to to your drink.
4:05
You know you can, you can have all these options and they will
4:07
explain to you, you know what what these cultivars are and
4:10
what kind of the flavor profile are you looking for or are you
4:13
expecting, which is very, very eye opening.
4:16
Yeah, and a lot of the vendors and people there are really
4:20
focused on education. So I got to have three really
4:24
great conversations with people involved in the MACHA scene in
4:28
Thailand. One was with Jeff, who's the
4:30
founder of MTCH, which is one of the coolest bars, coolest matcha
4:37
bar, contemporary matcha bars in Bangkok was the friend of the
4:40
first one that I discovered. So I find it deeply
4:42
inspirational what he's doing. I also got a chance to Tom from
4:47
Chaseki, who's based up in Chiang Mai and is a huge matcha
4:50
supplier and cafe operator as well, really deep into
4:53
specialty. I think his retail shelf had
4:56
more single origin, single cultivar and traditional blends
5:00
that I've ever seen one. Still, it was kind of amazing
5:03
the selection that they're importing there and how quickly
5:06
they're moving through. And then a more traditional tea
5:08
house, which does all sorts of really cool cultural events
5:11
where they bring in artists and workshop and brew both in a
5:15
contemporary wearing traditional way called Koto Tea Space.
5:19
Got to have a conversation with some of the baristas there as
5:23
well as Pop, who's one of the owners.
5:26
And the level of education that they do not only to the
5:30
consumers, but their staff was really surprising to everyone is
5:35
really well trained. Anyone who interacts with the
5:38
guest to explain what this is and why it's special and whether
5:44
or not it's, you know, matcha frappe using a more roasty,
5:49
toasty yame matcha blend that they have created.
5:53
And you know honestly, if you close your eyes and drink that
5:57
it almost tastes like drinking chocolate that's frozen.
6:00
It has such an insane nutty and chocolatey profile, but it is
6:04
just as careful and thoughtful as order a single cultivar
6:09
usucha at any of these places. It's really there's no
6:12
compromise, but the ability for the staff to explain it to you,
6:18
that intention is unlike I've ever seen anywhere.
6:21
So they don't necessarily have a lot of baggage to do innovation
6:25
of. So I think that it's it's
6:29
interesting to see how all of these cutting edge innovation
6:32
are happening outside of Japan. Yeah.
6:35
And for whatever reason it's concentrated in Bangkok.
6:39
And I was asking Jev, I I don't know what what point we will
6:43
release this podcast and whether or not it was before or after.
6:46
I asked Jev, the founder of NTCA.
6:48
You know, why is Bangkok like on the cutting edge of mock?
6:52
And you know, it's a difficult question for anyone to answer.
6:55
One of the most enlightening things that he said about the
7:00
whole scene in general is the focus on repeat consumers.
7:04
It's not this big show to have someone come in once and try
7:10
something and spend tons of money.
7:12
They actually have a specific persona of customer that they
7:16
train their staff on that is quote the repeat customer.
7:21
And part of their whole mantra motto is matcha for everyone.
7:26
And that has many different meanings.
7:28
But one of it is that you can walk in there knowing nothing
7:31
about matcha and have a really amazing matcha cheesecake or a
7:36
panna cotta or one of these blended frappes, which, you know
7:41
what, as a purist, I don't really want to like it.
7:44
It is incredible. Yeah, it's really good.
7:47
These like blended drinks that are with milk or things that
7:51
people traditionalists might think over, shadow a lot of
7:55
these notes and flavors that are found in delicate matcha.
7:58
It's like really not the case and the level of formulation and
8:04
optimization that's going on is insane.
8:06
Those are first rate first class products.
8:09
Yeah, I mean, quite a consumer ladder they have right there.
8:14
Yeah. You can have like something
8:16
that's just like, brainlessly delicious.
8:20
Brainlessly is perfect. And you can like everybody can
8:23
really enjoy that. And it kind of like act as a
8:27
gateway drug to lure people into, you know, the, the world
8:30
of matcha. And as they climb their consumer
8:34
ladder of they have all these crazy options for you to to go
8:38
for a more premium option. Yeah, and it's slow.
8:41
They they have sections that are just slotty.
8:43
They have a section which they call light brew, which is
8:46
basically an Americano. The ratio is about double usage.
8:50
They were telling. And then they have competition
8:52
grade award-winning all the way through, like these crazy things
8:56
that, you know, everyone hears about Hanzu shaded Asahi
9:00
cultivar, things that are hand picked.
9:02
So it really is matcha for everyone and it's matcha for
9:06
anyone at any one time because our preferences change.
9:10
It's a perfect place to let your preferences grow and to move up
9:13
and down the ladder. Because, you know, I, I find
9:15
myself just enjoying things with milk or sorry, just enjoying
9:19
things with water. And I find things with milk.
9:21
But you're covering up notes often subtlety and nuance.
9:25
Or if you add sugar, you're covering up penalty and nuance.
9:28
Or, or, you know, God forbid you take it and mix it with ice and
9:32
stick it in a blender. Well, now you've really ruined a
9:35
lot of subtlety and complexity. But you know, not all products
9:38
are bound to be these things and all of this wonderful matcha
9:43
that's not on the highest end, that can be extremely well
9:47
optimized for all of these different use cases where 1 + 1
9:51
equals, it's not even 3, it's more like 3 1/2.
9:55
Just mindlessly delicious and unique.
9:58
A lot of these different blends, they taste completely different.
10:01
The flavor profile variants and the celebration of that and the
10:04
flavors you can express on the on the MTCH menu, the tasting
10:08
notes for the same blend are different than if you drink it
10:12
as a light brew or only with water or with a milk or milk
10:18
alternative. Really thoughtful way of doing
10:22
sort of matcha for everyone approach.
10:25
Yeah, you know, Jeff told us that they spent a lot of time
10:29
doing experiments in the formulation and ingredients and
10:32
how much portion they add into the matcha.
10:36
When Jeff was making me this usuchat, he used a very
10:40
interesting technique from. Cold.
10:42
Brewing or whisking the matcha first and then add hot water
10:46
into and you know with different temperature of the water, the
10:49
flavor extract differently or apparently they extract
10:53
different parts of the matcha to create a more wholesome and
10:56
complex flavor profile. And that is just like something
11:00
that I've never seen before and they must have figured out
11:03
themselves. There is quite sophisticated
11:06
like extraction theory and like a lot of empirical science going
11:11
on because Jeff was telling me across the entire menu, the
11:15
extraction method recipe is completely different.
11:20
Some are completely cold whisks, some are cold whisked at first
11:23
and then they add hot water, some at different proportions of
11:27
hot water completely depending on whatever the context it is
11:31
that they're putting it. It does taste different.
11:34
I've never seen this much extraction theory in the same
11:37
way that you hear almost like espresso.
11:39
People talk about different doses, different time, the
11:43
amount that's getting extracted attracted.
11:46
It's really interesting what they're doing with variable
11:48
temperature extraction. Where I was just in Paris and
11:51
got a iced sort of Americano style matcha and they pulled out
11:56
from their refrigerator this water pitcher which was 1/3
12:00
empty full of this matcha concentrate, some of which I saw
12:05
was at the bottom. And poured me a glass of ice
12:07
water and took out a cocktail jigger and poured 1 jigger of
12:13
this concentrate which wasn't mixed very well and dumped it in
12:17
my cow. That's just sad.
12:19
It's just sad. We were talking about two
12:21
completely different worlds and that was one of the best matchas
12:25
I had in Paris. Like that was a good standard
12:28
actually from an American vendor sourcing what is pretty good
12:33
matcha from Tsuji san. Yeah, I guess like people's
12:37
perception of or assessment of using matcha is just very
12:41
different, you know, elsewhere. Like cuz one other things that I
12:46
notice, you know, visiting NTCH is how the entire bar counter is
12:52
so optimized for making matcha. Like they had really have a
12:56
perfect flow of, you know, dosing, whisking and, you know,
13:03
serving and cleaning the vessel, which you really do not see that
13:07
anywhere else in the world to be honors.
13:10
Like even the best cafe that we have visited in other places
13:14
with a matcha program, they would screw up for at least one
13:19
one part of this entire flow. Like usually the cleaning part
13:23
also the other parts matter matters.
13:25
But it's just very fascinating how much effort they have spent
13:31
in trying to create this seamlessly beautiful experience
13:34
for every kind of consumers. Yeah.
13:37
And actually you find it up and down.
13:39
So Tom was telling me that there are a couple of Maja Cafe chains
13:43
across Thailand that have dual concepts.
13:46
Some are more slow bar style, extremely precise, single
13:50
cultivar, really every every consideration is taken.
13:54
But also apparently there's a lot more grab and go concepts
13:57
popping up around Bangkok. I've been to a few of them.
14:00
Most of them are serving latte like beverages, which is not my
14:03
cup of tea, Sorry for the pun. And so, you know, usually don't
14:07
frequent them, but a lot of it's ready to made premixing.
14:10
It's very indulgent, very heavy to my taste preferences, and we
14:14
classify it as melted ice cream level indulgence.
14:18
I see, I see. Oh, I didn't get the chance to
14:21
try those grab and go places. But for the places that I have
14:25
been to, you know, we have places like, you know, Quesana
14:29
and TCH. We have places like, you know,
14:32
Koto and you have been to this wonderful tea library like tea
14:37
house in Chiang Mai with Tom. So I want to ask you a question,
14:44
Ryan. So moving forward, which
14:48
business model do you see would be the future of a contemporary
14:55
matcha? Yeah.
14:56
So with MTCH me, that's sort of the top of the hill at the
15:01
moment. No, it is not a high velocity
15:04
Cafe in the same way that we see places in New York where you
15:08
know, they need to be doing tons of customers every hour.
15:12
Otherwise the economics of the business just don't make any
15:16
sense, right, which is just not happening at a concept when you
15:18
have such exacting standard. One of our opportunities as a
15:22
matcha equipment is, is abstracting some of this
15:26
complexity away from the preparer.
15:28
So you can have the incredibly exacting standards, but someone
15:33
doesn't need to be measuring out exactly 2G of matcha and then
15:38
sifting it and then doing all of these other tasks or making sure
15:42
that the water temperature is perfect or this or that.
15:45
There's a lot of problems to be solved in the same way that we
15:48
see in other complex preparation like espresso.
15:52
So I don't know, in the last 1510, fifteen years in espresso
15:56
making, there's been this explosion of new equipment to do
16:00
everything from help you tamp it.
16:02
So someone invented this tool and you stick it in, tamps it
16:06
down exactly 30 lbs of pressure every time.
16:09
And of course, an experienced barista is probably going to get
16:11
pretty close and maybe do it a little faster than this this
16:14
machine. But for really high volume
16:16
cafes, you see that working very well for people when when the
16:20
consistency matters. Same thing with the distribution
16:23
tools, which is basically this needle like device which helps
16:27
spread around the coffee grounds and that saves a lot of time.
16:30
Traditionally what you'll see baristas do is they tap the side
16:33
of it, tap, tap, tap, tap. Maybe they tap a little hard
16:36
once and some of the coffee falls out.
16:38
So if you want to have exacting standards and matcha, there's
16:41
similar problems to be solved where it's not just pure manual
16:45
work with these relatively elementary tool with retrofitted
16:50
coffee equipment. So I think there's an
16:52
infrastructure gap at the moment to have such exacting standards
16:55
to produce a lot of these at scale in a way that can make
17:00
sense for someone's business. Yeah, bringing down the costs
17:05
for consumer while maintaining the quality I think is something
17:09
that we can all strive towards. I think Thailand is so unique is
17:15
because like with all these relatively lower costs of Labor
17:19
and real estate, you really can enjoy excellent quality of
17:22
matcha with a relatively lower price.
17:25
And in New York, probably close to $9 a cup of matcha latte if
17:29
you plus tax and tip. That's just like people want to
17:35
enjoy matcha with lower costs and and have that as a default
17:41
part of their life. If it's too expensive, it will
17:45
not be sustainable. No, absolutely.
17:47
And actually even places like MTCH are expensive.
17:51
As if for Thai people it's extremely expensive.
17:53
I think their cheapest beverage is around 120 baht, which is
17:58
about $4 and then it goes up through about to about $10.00
18:03
for like Usucha from an award-winning producer,
18:07
extremely special hand picked, which is still insanely cheap.
18:13
If you think about you're, you're talking about the best of
18:17
the best of the best. You have expert people preparing
18:20
it. It's fresh, flown in from Japan,
18:22
and it's some of the best matcha in the world.
18:26
That you can get for $10 a bowl is like mind blowing, mind
18:30
blowing. That's at least two times or
18:32
three times more expensive elsewhere if you have like a
18:36
similar type of service. So the fact that even the best
18:40
of the best matcha is so affordable, it's kind of insane,
18:44
right? If you want to climb to the top
18:45
of the consumer ladder, almost any other thing, it's you're
18:51
talking crazy prices, you know, 10s of thousands of dollars, you
18:54
know. So the other things that I
18:57
noticed is quite interesting is that the notice of Hoji Cha.
19:01
Oh yeah. That's very fascinating.
19:04
I mean, I mean like I love Hoji Cha and the way that they melt
19:08
that into a powder form and prepare it more like a matcha
19:12
and serve it in a similar manner.
19:15
Wow. Just mind blowingly delicious.
19:17
Yeah, my eyes have been open to Hoji Cha.
19:21
So I at Penn State, they had a tea exhibition where they
19:26
invited Johnny Macha and he at the time was sent a sample of
19:31
hojicha, and it was the best hojicha powder I'd ever had,
19:35
silky smooth. It had like sort of these
19:37
roasted teguan yen, roasted oolong notes, very
19:40
sophisticated, complex and smooth and really my eyes to the
19:45
potentials for hojicha. But MTCH took it to another
19:49
level. While we were there, they had
19:50
like 4-4 or five different choices.
19:53
Yeah, four different choices. Some of the products that we
19:55
tasted were insane and not only that, they tasted different from
19:58
one another. So I think I've tried two.
20:00
We both tried two different light brews, one of which was
20:03
whisked I think with hot water and then.
20:06
Put over ice, ice water, kind of like an Americano.
20:10
And honestly, if you looked at this, it would look like an
20:11
Americano. And then the other one was very
20:14
bizarre. They put it in a blend.
20:17
It came out looking this greenish Gray, very
20:21
unattractive, unappealing cup and poured over ice.
20:24
But the taste was incredible. Yeah, the texture.
20:28
And the texture, it was like so much air got incorporated that
20:32
it started cascading. So if you ever looked at like a,
20:36
a Guinness or some of the Nitro coffee, like the LA Cologne
20:39
draft latte, you notice that the bubbles rise, but they kind of
20:43
recirculate too. And the very similar effect is
20:46
going on. And the texture was so fine and
20:48
so smooth and so creamy. And there's no cream in it.
20:51
It was just water. And this Hoji chop and even more
20:55
wild. What we learned is that it
20:57
wasn't even from roasted tencha, it was from roasted stem.
21:01
Tencha stem? That's crazy.
21:03
I think that's my first time drinking being a stemmed powder.
21:06
Me too, I think. I don't think it was Ishiusu.
21:08
I had to have been a ball mill or some other more industrial,
21:12
but they still was not an Ishiusu ground tea, but it was
21:16
still incredible. That was very eye open to see
21:19
and I had asked him, I don't remember if you were there some
21:21
June, if this was before you had arrived.
21:24
But he is saying he wasn't sure if Hoji chop powder was going to
21:27
work at first. Everyone's in Tamacha, matcha is
21:29
very trendy. That's what people like.
21:31
People like healthy. They like this bright green
21:33
color and there was this kind of idea that people wouldn't like
21:36
Hoji chop. But my impression is that it's
21:39
quite a successful program there.
21:41
Interesting. So Ryan, I guess I didn't have
21:44
the the chance to go to Chiang Mai with based on your
21:47
experience between you know, Bangkok and Chiang Mai, do you
21:50
see a different consumer cohort that gets drawn into the world
21:55
of matcha in two places and do you see difference or
21:59
similarities more between these two cities?
22:03
That's a great question. I I don't think I've explored
22:06
Chiang Ma enough to have any definitive answer.
22:11
While I was at Chesapeake meeting Tom, most of the people
22:14
that were walking in seemed to know what was going on and had
22:18
preference and they knew what they liked and.
22:21
Some more experienced consumer. Yeah, well, it feels like we're
22:24
an MTCH, actually feels a little bit like a mix.
22:27
We went to Quesano, which is probably the most Instagrammed,
22:32
one of the most Instagram tamacha places in Bangkok
22:35
because it's in this beautiful modern office building.
22:39
The whole thing kind of looks like an AI generated future
22:42
office building set up. Yeah, how beautiful it is.
22:45
It's insanely beautiful. You got these water pools and
22:49
all this reflection of light and this really modern city A.
22:53
Bunch of installations and sculptures.
22:55
Yeah, a lot of arts. There's a percent Arabica across
22:59
the street, which is also like deserves to be an Architectural
23:02
Digest. Stunning architecture.
23:04
Yeah, yeah. And in this corner, which is
23:06
actually really hard to find, I didn't find it the first time I
23:10
went. I spent about half an hour
23:11
looking for this place the first time I went, and you got lost.
23:14
And there's this like fake cave installation where you can order
23:21
matcha drinks and it's really cool Cafe and they have a single
23:24
origin and a few blends of different products.
23:29
And we got to try there. And there it feels a little bit
23:32
less repeat customer. I don't know if that's true.
23:36
Maybe they get tons of repeat customers from the office.
23:39
Building, yeah. Must be, but there were
23:41
definitely a lot of people in there who were in there for
23:44
their social media activity. Or it's like at least from the
23:48
menu it feels like more of a grab and goal.
23:51
Yes it does, and they don't necessarily give you too much
23:55
information to give you the kind of matcha and where it's from
23:59
and give you a description of the you don't have a lot of
24:03
selections. Either.
24:04
Well, when you compare it to other places in Bangkok, that's
24:07
definitely true. But if this existed in New York,
24:10
this would be considered one of the most top specialty matcha
24:13
places just from their matcha offerings.
24:15
That's true, I think. True, and they also serve
24:17
Hojicha. They also serve Hojicha, yeah.
24:20
Seems like a thing overtime. I love that.
24:22
I really like Hojich. But it's easier on the stomach
24:25
and there's less caffeine. It's really functional in a lot
24:28
of. Ways, Yeah, yes, yes.
24:30
Do you see similar things in Chiang Mai or it's just really
24:34
the Kasaki or Chasaki kind of? They had Hoji Chow but I don't I
24:39
haven't been to enough of the places in Chiang Mai.
24:42
Thai Line is a wonderful place to come also for.
24:44
Drinks. We also did some interesting bar
24:47
hopping and one of the bar that utilized matcha as a ingredient
24:53
for their distillation. Super interesting.
24:55
That was a weird way to end the day, this home distillation
25:00
setup where they were doing matcha, I guess aromatic
25:03
extraction, That was wild. But it was completely random
25:08
too. Like we ended up there and
25:11
weirdly someone the day before came in that we met at a tea
25:15
place. So there's a lot of interesting
25:17
crossover Japanese tea and matcha being used in the
25:21
bartender seat across Southeast Asia.
25:24
We got chatting with a guy who was using some very high end
25:27
gokhiro and won a competition with it, and he was complaining
25:31
how expensive this gokhiro was. And when you win the
25:34
competition, it means you need to keep making these same drinks
25:37
and you had to keep buying more of this expensive tea.
25:42
How do they even make money? I don't.
25:44
See. Ingredients as as the necessity.
25:48
It's it's kind of wild. So I don't know if you noticed
25:52
this long June, but matcha lattes and matcha drinks in
25:57
Thailand taste pretty different than anywhere else in the world,
26:02
mostly just because of their texture and how thick they are.
26:06
It is like not a comparable product.
26:09
And I think one of the things that the rest of the world does
26:13
quote UN quote wrong. And I say that with a little bit
26:17
of hesitation, but people are just not using enough matcha.
26:21
Yeah, they're really under those.
26:23
Like when you go to the average place in New York or Europe or
26:27
even in like California, you really don't taste the matcha.
26:31
And if you watch a lot of these people that go around to these
26:33
different cafes and like I tried every matcha cafe in New York or
26:38
Los Angeles or San Francisco, Seattle, whatever, right?
26:41
Like half of the time they're saying I don't taste anything.
26:44
And I just think people are not using enough matcha.
26:48
When you, I think at MTCH, they use anywhere from 3 to 5G.
26:53
And I think some of the recipes might even be more.
26:55
It's like a lot more than the standard 2G or some places are
26:58
less than two. And I know Mark from Ouica is
27:02
trying to to improve on this. They do everything quote as a
27:07
double. So I think all of their matcha
27:10
lattes use 4G. It's a very similar spirit to
27:14
what you see. But you know these people who
27:17
come out with these new matcha brands and they they price it
27:20
very high and they say you can really make the stretch by only
27:23
using 1 gram. Well, might be true, but maybe
27:27
you only want to prepare a thimble worth of matcha at a
27:30
time because. Really don't taste.
27:33
That much you can't taste it. Yeah.
27:35
Then it just it's almost a colorant like I don't know, I
27:39
don't know for anyone listening that always doses with 2G for a
27:42
relatively large sized beverage would really encourage you
27:46
trying to up dose and see how it drastically changes the flavor
27:51
transformation. In particular, when you have
27:54
different matchas, let's say one from Yamai, one from Uji, or
27:59
maybe 2 from Uji, but different cultivars, and you're making
28:03
these light brew Americano style beverages or latte, you really
28:08
magnify the differences between those products in a profound way
28:13
and express some very different flavors.
28:16
And in particular, I've noticed a lot of the chocolatey notes or
28:20
like dry cocoa nibs or all of the nicest stringency, a little
28:24
dryness, a little bitterness and the way it plays with the milk.
28:28
And some of them have this nice like nutty aroma like roasted
28:33
pecans, roasted peanuts or sometimes some edamame notes.
28:39
You don't taste it unless you dose it properly.
28:42
Yeah, well, it's no surprising that in Japan people really
28:45
prepared the most premium matcha.
28:48
As a koicha, yeah. As a koicha form.
28:51
Yeah. If it's a usucha you know, like
28:53
you don't, you're missing a lot of the details.
28:57
Yeah, really take quite a high concentration to enjoy it.
29:01
So, Zenjin, what do you think? Western cafes, cafes in the
29:07
West, in Europe, in the States, in Canada.
29:11
What are some things that they could do that they could take
29:14
realistically from all the innovations that we're seeing in
29:18
Thailand and use it to improve their matcha?
29:21
Program. I think the first thing that
29:23
people can probably immediately implement is the setup, the
29:28
counter setup for matcha right now, like for a lot of these
29:32
coffee shops in, you know, outside of Japan or outside of
29:36
Thai, it's really just a sad little corner that they separate
29:41
from the rest of the coffee stuff and they put a bowl and
29:44
some scaled and some very sad looking toss and sitting around.
29:48
I think there is something that everybody can learn from MTCH is
29:52
how meticulously they optimize the entire float just for Mata.
29:58
I think that's something that everybody can learn from from
30:01
them. So I'll, I'll add on that too.
30:04
One thing I noticed that a lot of these places do is they
30:07
separate dry matcha handling from wet matcha handling, so
30:14
they don't mix those spaces. By the time Matcha gets to the
30:19
preparation area, it is sifted and it's dosed and it's put in
30:24
this little stainless steel cup, and by that time it is ready to
30:28
be dumped into a beverage and then prepared and mixed.
30:31
However, but there's not all of this cross mess crossover.
30:35
There's almost a segmentation, physical space segmentation
30:38
between dry powder, measuring, sifting, whatever, and then the
30:42
actual preparation. And everything gets cleaned
30:45
immediately. That whisk gets cleaned
30:47
immediately. The bowl gets cleaned
30:48
immediately and gets dried and it gets put back in its place or
30:52
immediately reused to start to be used.
30:54
That that, that was very interesting.
30:56
What are some other things that some people could implement?
30:59
I think using more matcha, honest, I think it's going to
31:02
add a lot of cost, but it's really worth experimenting,
31:05
maybe buying slightly cheaper matcha, maybe from a less famous
31:09
region or less famous cultivar and OP dosing and seeing what
31:14
happened. So even making the cost the same
31:17
by being able to use cheaper matcha, you might be able to get
31:21
a higher quality drink just because especially if you're not
31:25
dosing very high and you're putting 2G into a 16 oz beverage
31:29
or even more even a larger beverage format, you're not
31:33
going to be able to taste a lot of the the tea.
31:37
So that's one that's definitely worth an experiment.
31:40
And another one that's probably worth an experiment is variable
31:43
temperature extraction. So trying some some cold
31:46
whisking or cold whisking and then adding hot water.
31:50
There's a pretty interesting, you know, we put out a couple
31:53
Instagram reels about adding hot water and we usually suggest
31:58
people use 70 to 80° water because you get more filming
32:01
agents, you get more aromatic extraction, but sometimes you
32:05
don't want a lot of aromatic extraction.
32:08
And in certain contexts, let's say like, let's say matcha
32:12
tonic, maybe you want more body, a little more umami, a little
32:16
more sweetness and like very low bitterness.
32:19
Maybe lower temperature is fine. And maybe you don't even care
32:22
about the foam. Maybe the foam isn't even a
32:25
desirable thing when you're dumping that in a, in a, in a
32:27
tonic. So like this, use cases
32:31
definitely matter and everything needs to be optimized for the
32:35
context. And really brewing is just for
32:37
tools. There is no best way to make any
32:40
of this stuff. It's for.
32:42
It exists within some context. The other thing that I think
32:45
people can learn lessons from is experimenting and be more
32:50
innovative. Doesn't necessarily need to
32:53
stick with the traditional way of prepping matcha or powder tea
32:59
to create a delicious drink. We have been seeing in Bangkok
33:03
like people using blender, people using all kinds of
33:06
equipment to create more drinks or not just stick with matcha,
33:11
but also using hoticha, using hoticha stent.
33:14
I bet other teas can be milked into a powder form and create
33:17
delicious drinks. So I think that there are a lot
33:20
of interesting things that we can we can play.
33:23
Yeah, and result in a wonderful, delicious drink that everybody
33:27
can enjoy. Also really exploring the flavor
33:30
profile diversity. I feel like most cafes just
33:33
think they're matcha is they're matcha and that's it.
33:36
Yeah, or you add some, you know, like milk or foam or cream.
33:41
Or sometimes if you're being really innovative, you add some
33:44
fresh. But not all matcha works equally
33:47
well with let's say fresh fruit for example.
33:50
So like I thought I've had this in a couple of different
33:53
contexts, I think in cocktails and I've had it in like matcha
33:56
specialty drinks where that are flavored.
33:58
I thought I did not like the combination of yuzu and matcha
34:02
sounds great. Both Japanese ingredients, both
34:05
can be very high end. I thought that I didn't like it
34:08
had a bunch of examples, like just to me and every example I
34:11
had, there were highly clashing elements.
34:14
The bitterness from the matcha was too strong for the
34:17
astringency and dryness and the zestiness.
34:21
I love the yuzu and it just tasted very bad to me.
34:24
And I think most of those beverages are not well executed.
34:28
And what was very interesting, I was sitting at MTCH working one
34:32
day. I already had a light brew.
34:34
I usually just get it with water.
34:36
And I was a little hungry and like kind of craving something
34:39
sweet because like, OK, I'm going to go get a yuzu frappe
34:43
matcha. And I ordered one and it's with
34:46
their blend that they call arashi.
34:48
It's one of their bigger full bodied blends.
34:52
It's very strong, very chocolatey when mixed with milk.
34:57
And they dumped it on top as a float and I mixed it all
35:00
together. Oh my word, it tasted insanely
35:04
balanced. I did indeed have the preference
35:07
of matcha and use this frappe completely changed my mind.
35:11
And you usually the Arashi in a latte taste chocolatey and but
35:16
it didn't in this context with this yuzu South.
35:19
And this yuzu was very low like the oily notes of yuzu.
35:25
The rind has very low in this type of expression.
35:29
It was more little much more flavor driven, more lemonade Y
35:33
like a fragrant lemonade. Fragrant.
35:34
More zesty. Less zesty, more more juicy,
35:38
sweet body. And when mixed with this arashi,
35:43
it brought in this fresh note. I don't exactly know what to
35:48
call it, but it was just this fresh green flavor.
35:51
It wasn't grassy, it wasn't bitter.
35:54
It was, but it was distinctly matcha, this verdance freshness
36:01
it brought in and it was so delicious.
36:05
It was insane. I think I finished it in like 5
36:07
minutes but I bet if you took a different matcha from their menu
36:12
and you mixed it with that I bet it would taste disgusting.
36:15
Yeah, it might not. Work.
36:16
It just doesn't work together. So matcha is not matcha is not
36:19
matcha, and like matcha plus anything is completely the wrong
36:25
framework. It's this type of matcha paired
36:30
with this thing is very good and that a yame matcha might perform
36:36
completely different than an Uji matcha within Uji Macha.
36:40
Yabukita might perform completely differently with some
36:44
pairings than Oku Midori, for example.
36:47
Yeah, yeah. I mean, when people are talking
36:50
about premium or the Creme de la Creme of Matcha, people always
36:54
tend to look into Uji. But other places produced
36:58
excellent quality matcha team like Yame and Kagoshima.
37:02
I really like Yame from this I I personally is a very big Yunnan
37:08
poor tea drinker and yame really reminds me a lot of these are
37:12
very robust, wild, powerful spirit of Yunnan tea and I I
37:18
found it very enjoyable. Yeah, well, for sure, a lot of
37:21
the Uji tea is amazing. It is.
37:23
And amazing of the terror it is. You know, a lot of them are
37:28
umami bombs and that's great and it's wonderful and it's very
37:33
tasty, but there's so much to the world of matcha than an
37:36
umami bomb. I half wonder if we're going to
37:39
see a pendulum shift because it used to be, you know, 10-15
37:43
years ago in a third wave coffee movement, everyone was into
37:48
natural process coffee. I mean, the first time that you
37:50
have a coffee and your first thought is blueberries or
37:53
mangoes or pineapples, like, it blows your mind.
37:56
Yeah. Kind of like the first time that
37:58
you have an IPA that you enjoy and you taste like mangoes and
38:01
pineapple, you know, some Evergreen notes, It's like, oh,
38:04
my God, I didn't know things could taste this way.
38:07
And then your preferences shift. Yeah.
38:10
You know, as you consume more natural processed coffee, like
38:13
they all taste about the same or similar one way or another.
38:17
The flavor profile diversity is not very large.
38:22
You know if the coffee gets processed in that processing
38:25
method. And it's actually not very
38:27
terroir driven, right? Because when you natural process
38:30
a coffee, you're fermenting it dry with the fruit on.
38:34
And it's not really an exact expression because you have all
38:38
of these variables that can happen when the fruit is in
38:40
direct contact with that seed. And a very similar things with
38:44
this umami bomb. People like to think matcha is
38:47
very natural, but it's not. It is highly fertilized and
38:52
these umami bombs are the result of either natural, let's say
38:55
like fish and rice fertilizer or synthetic fertilizer to create
39:00
that nitrogen. That umami has to come from
39:02
somewhere and it is not naturally in the soil.
39:05
And those tea plants, if you remove that fertilizer, will
39:09
become very unhealthy. Ricardo from my Japanese Green
39:13
Tea deep in his catalog podcast, he did an episode on organic
39:18
matcha farming with Ian from You know Me.
39:20
And Ian was saying when farms transfer from being organic to
39:25
non organic to organic, which also means you have to remove
39:29
pesticides and everything, which means you need to drastically
39:32
reduce the amount of fertilizer. He says that those tea plants
39:35
are like drug addicts. They go through a withdrawal and
39:39
actually some, I think sometimes he said the leaves die and like
39:42
the root structure is not very good because it's so used to
39:45
being fed right at the top of the soil.
39:48
And it has to learn to grow its roots and go down deep, access
39:51
those nutrients and become a much healthier plant.
39:54
But a lot of these umami bombs, which I am a fan of, I like that
39:58
flavor is really the result of a lot of human intervention.
40:01
And we don't have a personal stance on whether or not, you
40:05
know, how natural or unnatural things are, that fertilizers are
40:09
bad or that pesticides are always bad or not.
40:12
They're not always bad. It's very context specific in
40:15
the way that you use them. But there's definitely high and
40:19
lower degrees of intervention and umami bombs, you know, while
40:24
there's the peak of the mountain for Japan, right?
40:28
They don't have to be. And there's so much more to
40:30
matcha than all of these umami expressions that can be much
40:34
more wild, much more complex. And there's an interesting
40:37
movement. I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing
40:40
his name. Tayas TSO Sen from the T Crane
40:43
talks about this natural T that is very low intervention.
40:48
What like the natural wine movement would call low
40:50
intervention or you're not adding a lot of fertilizers,
40:53
pesticide, you're not adding yeast to that fermentation for
40:57
wine. It's just whatever's naturally
41:00
there that the grapes pick up and they don't add sulfites
41:04
afterwards and they're not doing tons of fertilizer and just
41:08
letting plants do their natural thing.
41:10
Apparently that's very uncommon thing in Japan, but it is a slow
41:14
and I think growing movement. Definitely small still, but one
41:18
of the things we'd like to source is some of this natural
41:20
tea. Apparently some of it doesn't
41:22
taste very good either, which also adds to the challenge.
41:25
Yeah, it's not that surprising, but it would be interesting to
41:28
see, you know, in different regions you can really taste the
41:33
flavor of the region instead of, you know, they are nice into a
41:37
very delicious, but, you know, like uncharacteristic flavor
41:41
profile, I would say. Yeah, it's so interesting.
41:45
There's such a huge world for us to dive into that is on the same
41:51
level of complexity that we see in other other amazing food and
41:55
beverage product. And Bangkok as a consumer is one
41:58
of the best cities in the world to start to open your mind and
42:01
your palate. This especially in, at least in
42:04
our personal experience, taste this variation not only across
42:09
the terroir and the matcha itself as a pure beverage, but
42:13
in the way it can be used and leveraged as an ingredient in
42:17
other products in a very optimized way.
42:20
It's deeply inspiring, and I think it's the way the specialty
42:24
movement is going to go. All right, I think that's all we
42:27
have time for. So thanks so much for listening.
42:29
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a friend or giving us five stars.
42:35
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42:36
Next one, see you soon.