Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Exploring Trauma Recovery with Glenn Doyle

Transcript

Exploring Trauma Recovery with Glenn Doyle · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Trauma Theverist podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
0:04
now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma
0:09
Theveris podcast and signing up today. Welcome to the Trauma divers Podcast, a
0:18
show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those who experienced trauma. My name
0:23
is Gy McPherson, and my mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to
0:27
inspire each of us to help those around us. All great, Glenn,
0:37
here we go, So five four, three, two and one are folks.
0:42
Welcome back to the podcast. I am thrilled to have back doctor Glenn
0:45
Doyle. Glenn, welcome back. It is a thrill and a pleasure to
0:50
be back with the master of metaphor himself, Guy McPherson. You guys don't
0:56
know. Like right before we came on, I said, Guy, how
0:58
have you been? And what did you say? You said, I'm juggling
1:00
the flaming machetius of life. That's it. If only I had that kind
1:07
of facility with metaphor, just off the cuff. I'm always impressed with you,
1:11
my friend. It's great to be back. Thank you for having me
1:14
appreciate it well as you folks will remember. Doctor Doyle has extensive clinical experience
1:19
and inpatient, outpatient, and consultation settings. He's presented multiple times at the
1:26
Annual Conference of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Association and the
1:30
American Psychological Association. Doctor Doyle got into psychology because as a teenager he became
1:36
deeply fascinated with self help movement as well as literature, and as a professional
1:42
has made it his mission to bring the techniques and research base of clinical psychology
1:46
to the personal empowerment paradigm of self help. Doctor Doyle is also the board
1:52
president of the organization Seek Safely. We'll be talking about that today, Glenn.
1:57
Reminder listeners, before we go in here, where you're from originally and
2:01
where you are currently. So where I'm from originally, I'm just talking with
2:07
somebody about origins. Now this is interesting. So now I grew up in
2:13
the Midwest. I am from Iowa. I did my eventually, I did
2:17
my undergraduate at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. But I think,
2:21
as we talked last time, it was kind of a circuitous route to graduating
2:25
with a psychology degree. But now I went to an undergrad in Kansas City,
2:30
then graduate school in Washington, d C. Where I worked for I
2:36
thought the first few years of my career, I was the unit psychologist at
2:39
the Center Post Traumatic Disorders program at the Psychiatric Institute of Washington. I'm the
2:45
supervision of folks you know, Christine Curtois and and Joan Turkis. Then I
2:53
came out here in my own practice. I'm currently in Chicago, Sweet Home,
3:00
Chicago in twenty fifteen. But I started there's a whole thing like I
3:06
started my college career. I think we talked about this before I was going
3:08
to be a rock and roll star stars as a music major, because I
3:13
really liked the idea of, you know, as soon as you're done with
3:15
your job, a bunch of people stand up and go yay. I wanted
3:20
that, but it was not to be anyway. One of the things I
3:28
wanted to talk to you about is I h I follow you online and you
3:37
I want to talk to you about your posts and the energy behind them,
3:40
and there's a sense of advocacy about them. There's a strong sense of advocacy
3:51
about them, and I don't know if it's bordering on social justice, but
3:55
there's a strong sense of empowerment and self worth and uh the oftentimes lack of
4:05
self worth. A lot of us feel this makes sense? Am I resonating?
4:15
Correct me if I'm wrong now? I mean, first of all,
4:18
thank you for for noticing, I think a guy. What you're What you
4:26
may be detecting is the fact that my approach to to this work it's never
4:30
about us and them, like us clinicians and and them patients. It's always
4:34
about we survivors. We might have talked about this a little bit the last
4:42
time I was on, but my entire approach is about Look, this is
4:45
a not so much about trauma therapy. This is about trauma recovery. And
4:49
I take a lot of my approach to the work from concepts that that I
4:56
was first really exposed to in an addiction recovery set. So I myself am
5:00
an addict in recovery, and I think that we need to approach recovery from
5:06
trauma as well as a trauma survivor. And I think we need to approach
5:12
recovery from trauma in much the same way that the addiction recovery tradition talks about
5:17
addiction recovery. It's not a matter if we figure something out, we have
5:20
a breakthrough, and we're good. We are always in recovery, right like
5:26
like like we wake up every morning and we have to choose recovery again.
5:31
So a lot of what I write I write in terms of we, you
5:36
know, because again it's it's not just a signaler of solidarity with our patients.
5:43
I write we because it's we. We are all in recovery. Now,
5:46
therapy is frequently a useful tool of recovery. It's not the right tool
5:54
for everybody at all times. But I think that we can really get lost
5:59
in this idea of that, man, if we just meet the right therapist
6:02
and we just do the right piece of therapy work, we're going to hit
6:06
this this this plateau and we'll have an insight and that's going to be that's
6:10
going to be it. Now, we need to work our recovery. It's
6:15
not even a matter of like we figure something out, We work our recovery.
6:17
Like my approach is all about to rituals and skills and and and habits
6:23
and how we work a recovery day by day. So I mean, I
6:26
think that might be a piece of kind of what you're picking up on because
6:29
when I write, I'm very frequently talking about myself. But I also don't
6:34
put something out there that I don't think is broadly useful to we the the
6:39
recovery community. But I think when when people here trauma, therapy and UH
6:47
recovery, there's an understanding of what general understanding maybe of what each of those
6:53
mean. But when we're talking about trauma, what do you mean specifically?
6:59
I mean you said a little about I mean, there is that idea,
7:00
right we need to find the right therapist and if we get in tune with
7:05
the right treatment, things are going to gel and there's gonna be you know
7:11
that the angels singing. I mean, there's that hope. But you you're
7:13
saying something different here. Let's get more specific. You're bet so so psychotherapy.
7:23
I'm going to make some therapists angry with this podcast. I'm just letting
7:26
you know, this is the Trauma Therapist podcast. I'm going to kind of
7:29
trash therapy a little bit. Not really, I'm a therapist. I think
7:32
therapy can be a beautiful tool when it's the tool, Like when it's the
7:36
tool that's the right tool at the right time for the right person, that
7:41
said, therapy broadly has a storage tradition, going back to the psychoanalytic guys,
7:50
and yeah, a lot of them were guys. But going back to,
7:56
you know, the psychodynamic origins of what we and the West think of
8:00
a psychotherapy, there was this idea. So Freud had this idea that man,
8:03
there's stuff we can't handle, so we repress it, right, and
8:09
that repression causes anxiety. So we develop all these symptoms, and the only
8:13
way that we can get rid of these symptoms is to go to an analyst.
8:16
And the analyst is going to kind of help us put together the pieces
8:22
of what we have chosen to not know. We've unconsciously chosen to not know
8:26
something, So we're solving a riddle or a mystery within us. We're making
8:30
the unconscious conscious. Remember that from Freud, and it necessarily put the analyst
8:37
or the therapist in a position of kind of this Merlin like wizard of like,
8:43
oh yeah, man, I can, I've got the magic words that
8:48
are going to unlock this mystery inside of you. And then the idea was,
8:52
once we resolve these inner conflicts or we know what we know what we
8:56
already know, but we've decided not to know right then our symptoms kind of
9:01
disappear, because again, why do we have symptoms. We have symptoms because
9:05
of the anxiety caused by repression. There's still a lot of therapists that operate
9:09
on this, on this paradigm, this idea that you see them seem on
9:15
Twitter, speaking of Twitter, you see on Twitter every day, this idea
9:18
that therapy is all about, you know, we we come to know ourselves
9:22
on this deep level and whatever. And again there's a place for that kind
9:26
of work. However, I find that when we're talking about trauma survivors and
9:31
we talk about the the the challenges and the struggles that tend to bring people
9:35
into therapy and quarantine specifically to work on their trauma, it's not generally speaking,
9:43
because we have some some riddle inside of us that that that we're that
9:46
we're struggling to solve, and we need some some somebody in a position of
9:50
authority to kind of, you know, just this wise person who has solved
9:54
their own conflicts to to help us solve that riddle. What's happened is we've
9:58
been through things that have damaged, often physically, our nervous system. I
10:05
write a lot I speak and write a lot about trauma, conditioning and trauma
10:09
brain right, especially when it comes to complex trauma. You know, we've
10:16
had conditioning experiences every day of our lives for a lot of us, and
10:22
almost all the important relationships of our lives. That's what makes complex trauma complex,
10:26
right. Happened over time and in our relationships and stuff. It has
10:31
conditioned us in certain ways of thinking, feeling, believing, behaving right.
10:35
And that's not the kind of thing that goes away with having an AHA moment.
10:39
Let me ask you this, how many times have you had a moment
10:43
where you've realized the boy, this behavior is not serving me, and I
10:48
kind of know what it's about, Like I kind of realize, and yet
10:50
I still do it. Almost everybody who has ever had an addiction of endicind,
10:54
whether we're talking about diet, coke or cocaine, has had that moment
10:58
of I don't think this is serving me, and I kind of understand it.
11:03
But it's still a pattern. It's an ingrained condition pattern of thinking,
11:05
feeling, behaving, responding, et cetera, et cetera. So I think
11:11
in working with survivors, we need to cop to the fact that look there's
11:16
not going to be that a hall moment. Look, there's gonna be plenty
11:18
of aha moments, I guess right like, we're going to have plenty of
11:22
moments where we have, you know, moments of inside Oh that's connected to
11:24
that. Great But still, when it comes to protecting our safety and our
11:30
stability and improving our quality of life, what we're still talking about is on
11:35
the daily. You know, how are we reconditioning ourselves? How are we
11:39
starving those old neural pathways that led down those those those pathways we all know
11:46
them, right that that made us miserable and that got us into trouble,
11:48
et cetera, et cetera. How are we starving those letting those roll over?
11:54
And how are we creating new pathways through the jungle of ways that,
11:58
you know, the things that we can think, feel and believe and do
12:03
that create a higher quality of life. And again it's it's not think of
12:07
it this way. I can talk to a cartographer, you know, somebody
12:11
who makes maps, and and they can say, no, look if you
12:16
just go this way instead of this way, it will get you there much
12:20
faster. Uhha aha. Moment, right, the conversation with a cartographer doesn't
12:26
help me a whole lot. If I'm still on the ground trying to get
12:30
from from one place to the other place and the one path is like really
12:33
well traveled and it's it's a super highway and it's paved. But it makes
12:35
me miserable. But I know how to do it. You know, the
12:39
path is still a jungle path, right, It doesn't matter if I've had
12:43
the aha moment with the cartographers. Yeah, I just go this way.
12:46
It's flying, right. I still have to hack my way through the jungle.
12:48
That's what recovery is. So yeah, I'm using metaphors now, see
12:52
check that out. So to be clear, you're I mean, you actually
12:58
said this. You're not discounting the value of therapy or therapists or not at
13:07
all. I just want people to hear that because it's very easy, so
13:13
for those therapists who are listened to this as well as the survivors. Okay,
13:20
what you're saying makes a lot of sense. What does that mean in
13:24
terms? Does that mean I need to uh do something else in addition to
13:28
seeing my therapist. Do I need to suddenly cognitive cognitively approach this as recovery?
13:37
And if so what does that mean specifically? Sure, I have lots
13:41
of thoughts about this. First things First, I think all of us therapists
13:48
need to be very real about the fact that we get such a limited crack
13:54
at our at our patients every week, like we get a very finite self
14:00
said their time, and by the way, we get one version of them.
14:05
We have to be real about the fact that we're not the most important
14:11
influence on them. And by the way, if we are, that's probably
14:15
a problem, okay, they It's not a matter of should should our patients
14:22
do something in addition to therapy. They are doing things in addition to therapy.
14:28
I often remind folks that look, recovery, both from addiction and trauma
14:35
has been around long before therapy, and it'll be around long after therapy is
14:39
no longer a thing, I guarantee, like and whatever, one hundred and
14:41
two hundred years, this thing that we call therapy won't even be a thing
14:43
anymore, right, Trauma recovery will still be a thing. How does it
14:48
change how we work with our patients. The first thing that I would recommend
14:56
is to the extent that you can as a therapist and get a as holistic
15:01
a picture as you can of what their overall recovery looks like. Because again,
15:07
like this idea that the only thing operating on them are the ideas that
15:13
we give them or the work that we do with them. Not only is
15:16
it not accurate, right, it's also not trauma informed. Trauma informed work
15:24
necessarily centers the survivor. And one of my problems with kind of very traditional
15:28
therapy is it places the therapist in the role of expert. It creates massive
15:33
power differentials. It also tends to privilege the again kind of what the therapist
15:41
says or the intervention the therapist does instead of centering the survivor, all of
15:48
which is not trauma informed, right, all of which can actually exacerbate these
15:54
symptoms and the struggles of your typical survivor. So what I think you should
15:58
do to take a recovery mindset as opposed to a therapy mindset, Get as
16:03
holistic an idea as you can of what their overall recovery picture looks like,
16:08
and then ask yourself the question, like, look me as a person who
16:14
gets maybe fifty five minutes like most of my folks, I get fifty five
16:18
minutes, maybe one hundred and ten minutes. If I see them twice a
16:21
week, right in that very finite period of time, how can I move
16:26
the needle in their overall work. Let me use another metaphor, since I'm
16:33
inspired, since I'm talking to mister metaphor here, I think of recovery as
16:38
so, I'm a fan of Nick's martial arts. You know the fights they
16:45
have five minute rounds, and in between the rounds that come back to the
16:48
corner. When they come back to the corner, the corner crew, they've
16:52
got one minute in that corner, and the corner crew can kind of clean
16:56
them up and give them some feedback and you know what they're using, and
17:00
answer some questions to it, and then then they're back out to the fight.
17:04
Recovery is the fight. We can't be with them for that. I
17:08
wish we could, but we can't. And the fight, the time that
17:11
they're out there in the ring and the octagon dwarfs the time that they are
17:17
back here in the corner. Thank you for your therapy sessions. As Look,
17:19
you've got them in the corner for a minute. You've got to pick
17:22
and choose what you're going to use your minute for, right what observations are
17:26
most important, how you can best clean them up right, what they most
17:30
need to know, be responsive to what they're saying in that minute. So
17:37
it's a perspective shift. And I know some therapists. Again, most of
17:41
the therapists that I know that I personally know, are amazing at what they
17:45
do. Right. However, we all heard stories, horror stories a therapist
17:51
who truly thought that they were running this. They truly thought that they were
17:55
running the Patian's recovery. Right, you're not, And by the way,
17:59
if you were, that's a problem, right, Right, So when you
18:03
speak of recovery, how are you defining recovery because you're saying that the client
18:08
is with the therapist a very finite portion of time and they're in recovery the
18:14
rest of the time. Oh no, recovery at all times, all times?
18:18
Okay, But does recovery mean the intentional actions taken in a particular direction
18:23
towards healing or what does it mean? So recovery, as I use the
18:29
term, and again I encourage you to think about it as analogous to addiction
18:34
recovering. So when somebody says I'm a recovering alcoholic or i am in recovery
18:40
from substance dictions. So I person, I'm in recovery from substance addiction.
18:45
What that means is it has a couple implications. One, it has the
18:48
implication that this is not a a quest for an outcome, Like it's not
18:56
like I'm going to get to the point of being recovered and in recovery.
18:59
Right. That's important because it necessarily implies that it's an active process that I'm
19:03
choosing every day, as opposed to I'm like, I'm waiting to heal.
19:07
Like I have a big problem with them when people say, were like,
19:10
well, in order to heal, you did this, And I understand what
19:12
they mean when they say that, but I'm like, I'm not waiting to
19:15
heal. I'm working my recovery. Right. Think about recovery as I think
19:22
about recovery as as a lifestyle. Okay, I live a recovery lifestyle.
19:27
What does that mean? That means every day I have to wake up and
19:30
choose it. Right, we choose our lifestyle, Like I distinguish that from
19:37
say, just things that happen to us, right, things that happen to
19:41
us are not part of our lifestyle. Lifestyle are the things that we choose.
19:45
So I think of recovery as a lifestyle. I also think of recovery
19:48
as a mindset. Right, So, in cognitive therapy they talk a lot
19:55
about schemas. Schemas are these these these these broad beliefs that we have that
20:00
that filter incoming information, right, Like, we have these beliefs that that
20:04
causes us to pay attention to some things not pay attention to other things.
20:10
Recovery as a mindset or as a schema, if you will, is very
20:17
similar. Like if I'm looking at the world through a recovery mindset, I'm
20:22
always asking myself the question, Okay, so this stressor that's happening, how
20:26
does this interact with with my past? How does this interact with my symptoms?
20:30
How does this interact with my vulnerabilities? I'm The reason why that's important
20:36
is because, as you know, one of the biggest problems experienced by most
20:40
survivors the world is full of triggers. The world is full of triggers and
20:45
has very little patients for a trauma responses. So something that we necessarily need
20:51
in a recovery mindset is the fact that whenever anything happens to us, that
20:56
is that is remotely stressful. We necessarily ask dress, Okay, does this
21:00
have the potential to trigger me? What is this going to interact with?
21:03
What knowledge skills and philosophies do I need to engage right now to deal with
21:10
this? And some people say they're like part of the pushback. I get
21:12
to my approach. Sometimes I don't want to think about trauma all day.
21:18
Are you kidding me? I've got to think about everything from a recovery mindset.
21:22
Oh come on, Maybe I think about like work, but that,
21:25
but then I'm out of the clock, right Like, I don't think about
21:26
that. Think about how nonsensical it would be for an addict to say that,
21:32
Right damn, I'm in addiction recovery nine to five, but then after
21:34
five I'm taking it off. Right now, we have to be in recovery.
21:40
Like we're in recovery. It's a twenty four to seven project. We're
21:42
also in recovery. You raise an interesting point to say, look, are
21:45
we in recovery in the therapy hour? You bet you? Because the stuff
21:49
that happens in the therapy hour I'm also interacts with our past, with our
21:55
symptoms. You know, we also have to manage stressors and triggers that come
21:59
up in the therapy hour and vulnerabilities that come up in the therapy hour.
22:03
Right, it's the height of trauma uninformed work to say like, well,
22:07
okay, so this is the therapy hour. I'm the therapist. I'm going
22:11
to have that for you, the patients, the survivor. It's always in
22:17
recovery. I always looking at things through a recovery mindset. What I like
22:22
about what you're saying, Glenn, is you're kind of switching the hour,
22:30
if you will, into the client's direction center, into their core and in
22:41
the whole trauma field, in the whole therapy field. As you were talking
22:47
about, there's an imbalance. There's an implicit, inherent imbalance with the therapist
22:52
up here the client down here. The therapists in most cases done all this
22:56
work on the school, spent all this money, has all this knowledge and
23:00
is going to impart that, oftentimes with the best of intentions onto the client.
23:07
But it's subtly, uh sometimes maybe oftentimes subconsciously, unconsciously shifts the power
23:17
away from the client. That's what I was sensing in a lot of what
23:22
you post, and it's it's very different from what a lot of other people
23:27
are posting. But this idea that oh my god, I gotta I gotta
23:33
do this every day, it's a it's a different uh, it's a different
23:38
scheme. It's a different paradigm that you're talking about. You bet. I
23:42
would really like to say, I would really like to see trauma recovery treated
23:48
culturally a lot more like addiction recovery. And don't get me wrong, the
23:52
culture has problematic attitudes toward addiction recovery as well. But what I mean when
24:00
I say that is in any city in the world, at any hour of
24:04
the day, I can find a twelve step meeting. Now, twelve Step
24:10
is not a perfect approach, and I don't entirely endorse twelve step. That's
24:12
not what I'm saying. The parts of twelve Step that I do really like
24:18
is the fact that one, there's a lot of availability of resources that are
24:23
free, there are there's an ecosystem built up around sponsorship and mentorship that I
24:34
think is really important. Think about the fact, guy, that in our
24:38
field, I don't know if if trauma psychology, maybe look, maybe it's
24:45
just the fact that because I'm in the trauma psychology sphere that I'm just more
24:49
aware of this in our field, our sub field of psychology, but we
24:55
spawn gurus like nobody's business. Are you kidding me? Like you asked,
25:00
you know, who are the big trauma guys these days? Right, you
25:03
know, right, like you know it's it's it's Gaybor and it's Pacil and
25:07
yeah, it's like all these guys, Glenn, right, you know,
25:10
all these guys. It's the opposite of Ironically, it's actually the opposite of
25:18
what trauma informed means. You know, trauma informed necessarily takes the power differential
25:23
down a notch, specifically because what are the dynamics that contributed to complex trauma?
25:30
Massive power dynamics that that fed into feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, Like
25:37
complex trauma doesn't happen ninety nine percent of the time, doesn't happen without a
25:41
massive power differential. And yet ironically, somehow we ended up being like the
25:45
subfield of psychology that where we've got these gurus like what are we doing?
25:49
Man? So I'd really love to see again more people think about recovery as
25:55
as survivor focused and again kind of analogous to to addiction recovery in so far
26:00
as yeah, we work the steps we work our recovery. The other thing
26:06
that occurs to me that I really want to say before we run out of
26:08
time is the fact that I can tell you, as a recovering addict,
26:15
the days and the nights are health. The nights especially your health. There's
26:21
not a day that I don't think about using Now. I'm at a point
26:26
in my life and in my recovery where I've got a lot more skills,
26:30
tools, philosophies and other resources to handle that, but I'm still at risk.
26:36
I'm still vulnerable. That's another key part of recovery is never underestimating our
26:41
risk, never under selling our risk and our vulnerability. Trauma, the experience
26:48
of trauma, as you know, as I know, as every survivor listening
26:52
to this nose, is very similar to addiction. And so far as the
26:56
days the nights are hell, there's not a minute of of most days and
27:02
there's definitely not a minute of most nights that survivors are not struggling in some
27:07
way, shape or form. And yet we've constructed a therapy paradigm where we're
27:14
expected to do this work in session and then do what press pause. This
27:18
is a twenty four to seven struggle that we have with trauma. Therefore,
27:22
we need a twenty four to seven solution. That's why I talk about recovery
27:27
instead of therapy. Yeah, I sense a book. I feel a book
27:34
with all seriousness. I mean, you know, it's just interesting when I
27:41
in doing these podcasts and doing these interviews, not too many people. I
27:45
don't even know if anyone else is talking about it the way you're talking about
27:48
it, and I love it. I love it. Look, I want
27:52
to mention your position with seek safely? Can you say what you're doing with
27:59
that? What is safely? You bet? So? It's it's apropos that
28:03
that that you mentioned this because you discussed at the top of our time together
28:10
that I got into this field because of self help. I was a self
28:15
help guy. One of the reasons why I'm still a self help guy.
28:18
And don't get me wrong, the self help field has problems, but one
28:22
of the reasons why I'm still a self help guy is specifically because of my
28:25
commitment to recovering right. Almost always, when your your patient comes in and
28:32
we all know that like trauma survivors, as patients tend to be super well
28:36
read, we're usually not their first stop they've usually read, books, they've
28:40
usually done like online resources, et cetera, et cetera. Seek Safely is
28:45
a nonprofit organization dedicated to advocating for ethics and accountability in the self help industry.
28:55
It was actually founded by the family members of people who die doing self
29:00
help retreats that well were led by by a really unethical, really scummy guy
29:07
like you can look up this entire story on the Internet. But my point
29:11
is that what we at seek strive to do is to educate, empower and
29:18
in our way protect consumers of self help literature and resources from those that would
29:22
seek to exploit their vulnerability. So, as a practical matter, you know,
29:27
we have these seek Safely podcast and that's hosted by me and Jane Brown,
29:33
where we discuss exactly these issues. When you're whether or not you're a
29:37
survivor, if you're somebody who is is struggling, suffering, vulnerable, and
29:44
you're accessing self empowerment resources, self help books, classes, seminars like whatever
29:49
it is, you need to be really mindful of what makes for good quality,
29:56
ethical self help and where there might be signs of exploitation. I find
30:03
that our mission is really resonant with a lot of survivors, because again,
30:07
survivors make up such a big subset of the audience for self help products and
30:11
services. So we're at seek safety dot org. We have the seek Safety
30:15
podcast. Do a flyby of us if you're somebody who consumes these resources.
30:22
We aim, just like I am on my social media presence, we aim
30:26
to put out stuff worth thinking about in this journey. Awesome. I'll have
30:30
that link up here at the show notes page at the Trauma Davers podcast dot
30:33
com. Glenn, what is the best way for people to reach you,
30:40
get find out what you're doing? I am all the social things at at,
30:45
doctor Doyle says, generally find me at Glen Glenn Patrick Doyle is is
30:52
I throw my mill name in there because because Glenn and Doyle also exists and
30:56
and puts out self help materia and one of the odds that why what are
31:02
the odds that two people would exist with a virtually identical name in kind of
31:04
the same niche So so, but if you google Glenn Patrick Doyle butt on
31:11
Twitter and threads and all the things I'm at, doctor Doyle says, all
31:15
right, awesome, Glenn, thank you so much for coming back. You're
31:18
welcome anytime, super inspiring, really appreciate it. It is my pleasure and
31:25
will come up with more amazing metaphors the next time. All right, take
31:30
care, take care Bye,