Latest / Propertyshe Podcast / Anette Simpson

Transcript

Anette Simpson · Propertyshe Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: It does feel that the right noises are being made and the right steps are being made, and initiatives that are coming are being done for the right reasons in terms of speeding up.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think you know there needs to be some real thought about, you know, maybe some demand side initiatives to assist on the purchase side, you know, with interest rates going up and it being more costly or less affordable for people to get on the housing ladder.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's really stopping people buying, and that is really impacting the house builders.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that demand side, that looking at the whole ecosystem, I think, is incredibly important and needs to happen.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Susan Freeman.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to our Property Sheet Podcast series brought to you by Mish Condorea in association with the London Real Estate Forum, where I get to interview some of the key influencers in the world of real estate and the built environment.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Today I'm delighted to welcome Annette Simpson.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Annette is Director of Developments and Partnerships at LNG's Affordable Homes Division, one of the UK's leading registered providers, delivering high-quality, tenure-diverse communities at scale through long-term institutional investment.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Annette leads the development and delivery of LNG's growing national portfolio, overseeing developments from concept to completion, and plays a key role in shaping places that support thriving communities.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Annette also leads on sustainability, driving LNG's ambition to deliver net zero carbon homes in operation by 2030.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: A chartered urban planner with extensive experience in complex residential developments, Annette is passionate about creating well-designed, sustainable homes that leave a lasting positive impact.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm very much looking forward to talking to Annette about what led her to her current role and the challenges of overcoming the current headwinds provided much-needed affordable housing in the UK.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Annette, welcome and it's lovely to see you again this afternoon.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking about, you know, when we first met, and I do remember, you know, very vividly when you were at Capco attending some of the party conference dinners together.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that was, oh gosh, back in 2010, 2011, something like that.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, a long time ago.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I remember it vividly.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was a very interesting period in my career.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we will talk a little bit about that.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So before we delve into your career, let's talk about how you came to be doing what you're doing now.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know from our previous conversation that you had not necessarily been planning a career in planning, so to speak, and that you were thinking about management consultancy.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought it would be really interesting to hear really what made you change your career path.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so gosh, how I sort of knew this at the age of 18, I have no idea.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: But when I did my A levels and I was trying to choose a university course, I kind of was a bit fixated on business and management studies.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think probably because we had all of the fairs that come around school and it was all the management consultants coming around.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of thought, oh, that looks like a good career.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I was kind of focusing on management studies and then saw a course at Nottingham University for town planning and management.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, oh, I've done a geography A level, that would be a really interesting sort of route to take.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of started my career off at Nottingham Uni.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and the clubbing was really good in Nottingham.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that was also at the time a very good reason why I wanted to go there.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, to be honest, I had the most amazing lecturers when I was doing the town planning part of the course.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: They were all architects, they were all in urban regeneration.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: At the time, we had Richard Rogers task force looking at urban renaissance.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: We had PPG 6, I think it was at the time, all about town centre redevelopment and sort of enlivening cities.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just had the most amazing three years learning about regeneration, urban design, and I enjoyed the management side.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, it was a really interesting mix between, you know, town planning and management, because when you are working in town planning or any development role, you are constantly managing lots of different aspects of a project.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, it was a really great combination, of course.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: But rather than go off down the management studies route, I decided it was the planning side that I wanted to focus on.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So from there I went off and did a master's in urban design and then started working in the built environment.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So my first job was with EDOR on the master planning side.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so that's kind of how I got into planning.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a big ambition of mine at all.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I sort of fell into it, but it was definitely off the back of just having some really inspiring and fantastic lecturers.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it's an amazing area to be in.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why more people don't get excited about creating the places that we spend our lives.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, maybe they don't get the opportunity to have those sort of inspiring lecturates.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would also say that town planning gets a really bad press because, you know, it's such an interesting profession to be in because you're dealing with so many different areas of cities and towns that we live in.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I'm not specifically in town planning now, but I work in development and residential development.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And just being able to be part of a team that is looking at delivering great quality places, new bits of city, as well as amazing new homes, you know, is a really rewarding profession to be in, I think.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we tend to hear about the negatives.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, planning is associated with, you know, holding things up.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there's all of this, you know, negative rather than focusing on the positives of what can be achieved.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: What can be achieved, exactly.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when you started, I mean, what sort of master plans did you get a chance to work on?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, really early on, my first role yeah, at Edol, I was really lucky at the time Jason Pryor was leading the team there, and they were looking at Manchester City Centre, so Piccadilly Gardens, they were looking at the uh master plan for the Olympic Park.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking at some large-scale sites, some old series treatment works actually, and looking at how you could sort of master plan some of those very large pieces of land for residential-led new communities.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I was very lucky to get to work with St.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: James Homes at the time when it was still a joint venture between Thames Water and Barclay Group.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they had some really interesting projects, some very large projects.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: They had the Reading Gateway, which is the old Reading Sewage Treatment Works, they had Worcester Park and Kew Riverside, which is obviously a very large scheme.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just got to work on those large-scale schemes.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I was putting my town planning skills into place, but also things that I'd learnt through my urban design masters.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's kind of where I got to start my career.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And from Edol, I then went over to work for St.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: James Home, so for the Barclay Group.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was just very lucky, I think, because it was, you know, back very early 2000s.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I joined in 2000.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there was a real momentum behind delivery of great quality housing in a large master plan setting.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that's where I really started it all.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you didn't have to start small, you were actually working straight.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: I did, which was great.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where you know I learned a huge amount.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, a lot, particularly you know, in residential development, I think when you when you work for an organization like Barclay Group, and I then went on to Ballymore and other places, you really learn your craft and you really learn about building and construction and housing.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think it was a pretty good start actually.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And from there you went to Ballymore, is that right?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So from St.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: James Homes, I went over to Ballymore for a couple of years.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Again, looking at the planning around City Island, which was the old refinery that sat at Leemouth Peninsula.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, worked on Royal Wharf, which was the old Monoko War, the Hayes and Harlington station projects.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, again, large-scale mixed-use residential schemes.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And how did you come to CAPCO?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously that's where I first met you.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so after Ballymore, I went to work for First Base, which was set up by Elliot Lipton and Ben Denton to deliver he worker housing in London under the London-wide initiative for the HCA at the time, so Homes and Communities Agency.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I was there for about four years, and in the last year, it was just as we were at sort of in the credit crunch, so 2008, 2009, and we were asked to provide sort of planning and development expertise and advice into the Yales Court project.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I started off just being seconded in looking at that large site, and then over time I ended up going over permanently because it was such a major project.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was hooked, it was a great urban region scheme to be involved in.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I decided to go from first base, which I'd absolutely loved.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was a really fabulous place to work, really interesting, but I could see the opportunity of being involved in sort of creating a new piece of city in a very well-located part of London.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I decided to make the move and went over as um head of planning and development, I think it was, for Earls Court.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is a pretty amazing scheme, and you know, we were involved with it at the Mishcons.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, 77 acres in central London, which you don't often get the opportunity to work on, something like that.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Terry Farrell was working on the master plan, and I remember it was all about four villages and high street, and it really captured the imagination.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think you were right, it was a really great project to be involved in.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a real privilege to be working with Terry Farrell and the team.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the whole team was really top quality, but having the opportunity to work with Terry was really special.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: He had a really amazing way of talking about place and vision in a really simple way.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, four villages and high street, it's uh it sounds like a bit of a strapline, but actually it was what we used to describe what was otherwise quite a complicated master plan.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was very large, it was linking Hammersmith and Fulham through to RBKC.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was lots of technical issues that we were dealing with.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was a very complicated site building over railway lines.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, what he was able to do was just distill it down into a really simple vision that kind of got a lot of people behind it and was able to, you know, very clearly articulate what you know he'd intended that place to become.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: A big thing that I learned working with Soteri was that generosity of spirit.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you look at the amount of input and the ideas that he gave to London to try and improve it and make it a special place, whether it's the Ramblas idea he had, whether it was Old Oak Common, I mean, I know they're doing a great job down there.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: They've just launched their procurement process.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was sort of in the room thinking, actually, Terry was the one that really started all of this.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: I remember at the time we were doing I'll score, you know, he was in discussions with the GLA and just coming up with ideas of what he thought that place could be.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: He did the same with the Thames Gateway.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that generosity of giving that wisdom and those ideas away because he was so passionate about London and, you know, the creation of place and what great placemaking could really do for a city and you know, the impact both social and economic that it could have on the people that live and visit.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I remember him, you know, one of the first times I sat around the table with him, and I remember him talking, you know, it's not just about the buildings, it's about the spaces between the buildings, and he was so right.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think you've said that it was the best and the worst five years of your career.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how 10 years?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what was the best bit and what was the worst bit?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, firstly, it's the most amazing project.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the team that are on the project now, you know, I'm so excited to see their vision come to life.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I know the team down there, and yeah, I mean, you know, what they're doing is a fabulous job.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it will always be really close to my heart because I spent so much time on it myself.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think whenever you work on a very long-term, large-scale project like that, you know, there's some real highs, but there's some also some real lows.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because when you're working, you know, you invest so much of your professional and personal life really into those projects.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not just a nine-to-five job, it's something that you passionately love doing.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so you get very invested in it.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And when things are going well, it's great, but when the challenges really kick in, it can be quite low at times, but you learn from that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I always look back very fondly to that time, and I'm always drawing on experience that I had there.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way, but you are right.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was definitely the best five years and the hardest five years.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can understand it sort of takes over your life, really.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, what then attracted you to the move from traditional property and development into affordable housing?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, I suppose I've always passionately believed in the creation of great quality places and homes.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have always worked in very residential focused projects, and the impact that good quality housing has on people and society, it's just so fundamentally important.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I just got to the stage where I've been working on the same project for 10 years.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: I could see that there was a real need to sort of be more innovative in the affordable home space.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I was lucky enough to sort of get back in contact with Ben Denton, who was CEO here at the time.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we just started to have a conversation, and I was talking to him about taking a slightly different direction, but I was very keen about you know staying in the private sector.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't really thought I would go and work for a housing association necessarily.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't really thought about it that way.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so he joined LNG Affordable in 2018, that's when it was set up, and I joined the following year, 2019.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been here almost since the beginning.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it was just that sort of thinking, okay, I'm going to go take a slightly different direction, but with the same core, creating great places for people to live.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what I've been doing.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's probably a good moment to explain for our listeners exactly what your role is and how, if there is a typical working day, you know, how that might look.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, I'll start just explaining about legal and general affordable homes.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, as I say, we started in 2018 and we were set up to improve the supply quality and choice of affordable housing within England.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And by investing patient capital into the delivery of affordable housing.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we are a set up as a for-profit organization.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we invest pension fund capital into the delivery of new affordable homes.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we work in partnership with a number of businesses.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, whether that is house builders purchasing Section 106 homes or working with house builders and developers to deliver net additional affordable housing using either homes engine grant or GLA funding, or going out and buying land ourselves, securing planning and building.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we are very strong on sustainability.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have a target that all our homes will be net zero carbon enabled from January 2030.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: We've just delivered our first net zero carbon scheme.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And essentially what we've been doing, so we've just launched the Affordable Housing Fund, which was launched at the end of 2024.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what that is doing is taking local government pension fund money, and then we are investing that in affordable housing.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we've currently got a portfolio of over 7,000 homes.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got 7,000 homes fully occupied, we've got another 2,000 in the pipeline, and we are continuing to invest in affordable homes, and we have some pretty good targets that we've got to hit this year over the next few years.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: My role in all of that, I'm the Development and Partnerships Director.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I oversee the origination of homes, whether that is through buying land or working in partnership with uh developers and house builders, all the way through to handing those homes over to our customer and property team who then manage those homes in perpetuity.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sort of responsible for the first part of the process, but very much the sort of development and the delivery side of the process.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: It might be also useful to define affordable housing because it's one of those expressions we talk about a lot and you know don't necessarily understand.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we we are delivering traditional affordable housing.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we deliver social rent, affordable rent, and shared ownership.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So the homes that we deliver from an affordable rent side are generally you we can deliver at 80% of market rent, no more.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you go above that, then you're no longer classed as affordable.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: But generally our homes sit lower than that.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're probably around 65-70% of market rent when you're living in one of our affordable homes.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really important to note though, it's not just tagged to market rent, it's actually about how much can people afford to pay.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we look at our residents having no more than 35% of their gross household income being paid to rent.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we look at it from two lenses.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how much are we below the market, but also ensuring that the residents that are moving into our homes can afford that rent.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: We then also do deliver social rent homes, which again are probably around 50% of market rent, taking people off the housing register.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: We take people off a housing register on affordable rent as well.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we work closely with local authorities through nominations agreements to make sure that we're taking the people in need within the area into homes.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then we also deliver shared ownership, so part rent, part buy.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And generally what we see with the cost of our shared ownership homes is it's cheaper to be in a shared ownership home than it is to rent on the open market.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we look at all the affordability tests to make sure that people are able to afford the properties, but generally it is cheaper to live in one of our shared ownership homes than be renting on the open market.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And how do the financials work out?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously you're running a business, you know, you want to make a profit at the end of all this.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the combination of the money that you raise in partnership, the grants and the funding that makes it possible to, you know, provide homes at rents that people can actually afford?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so first of all, it's really important to say that we are a for-profit.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: The investment that comes into our homes is from pension fund money.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So either that is either legal and general pension fund, or and the majority of our funding at the moment comes from local government pension funds.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, we're working very closely with the Greater Manchester Pension Fund up in Greater Manchester, and we're working with a number of other pension funds around the country, and we've got a fund of around 700 million to invest.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of scale of the investment from local government pension funds that we're investing.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got a number of other investors in there as well.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So Better Society Capital is one of our investors.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that ESG, the sustainability point, is very, very important when we're looking at our returns.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when we are investing pension fund money, we are generating a return on their investment back to the pension fund to reinvest in other things.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So when we are looking at funding the affordable homes, if it's section 106, there's no grant subsidy.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we are directly purchasing homes from house builders.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: If we're converting homes from another tenure, so open market sale, utilising either GLA or Homes England grant, that creates then the ability to purchase homes of a different tenure and convert them into affordable housing.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing to note is that because of the type of capital that we are investing, ESG and the social impact is really, really important.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, there is a return, a financial return being generated.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that is because pension funds and patient capital like it because it's a long-term stable income, but also it's really attractive because of the social impact and the social benefit that that investment is having.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we sort of talk about investing society's capital for societal benefit, but actually we go one stage further because we're working with local pension funds, we're investing in their local area so that there isn't a real demonstrable benefit and impact that they're able to see happening in their local area, which is really, really important.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say increasingly important.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: So when we talk about, you know, return, it's yes, there is a financial return, but actually the social impact is as important to our investors.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's really interesting, actually.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't realized that the local authority pensioners would be investing in their area, so they actually get the benefit of the work that you're putting in.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And are you able to do this across the country?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, obviously, you know, we're all hearing about increased construction costs, and obviously land prices are more expensive when you're looking at London and central London.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Are you able to make it work in London?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: We are.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: We've invested a lot in London.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: We are very focused on rental, though, in London rather than shared ownership.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: We have done shared ownership in London, but at the moment, we're probably about 80% of what we do is social or affordable rent within London.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, you can make Work in London, but there is a requirement for GLA grant to come in, even on the Section 106 side.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we are in a really difficult place as a development industry at the moment from a viability perspective and just increasing costs and increasing uncertainty about what's happening in the markets, which impacts the ability of investors to be able to come in and commit the certainty, and also for house builders and developers to press the button and get on site and start building.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, we play quite an important part in that equation because if we're able to bring in our investment plus GLA or Homes England grant, we can help developers kickstart and get on site, which is really important because what we are seeing is you know very low levels of starts on site at the moment, particularly in London, but actually all around the country.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the ability for us to be able to bring our investment in and get projects moving is really, really valuable and it's a really important part of ensuring that the industry is able to continue to deliver.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, an example of that is a project that we've we're involved in in Coventry City Centre South, where Hill are working very closely with Coventry City Council and the combined authority there.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: The first phase of that scheme is about 1,600 homes.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: There was no affordable homes within the planning commission, but we are taking and invested in the first 200 homes, which we will deliver for social rent and shared ownership.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that has enabled demolition to start, development agreement to be signed, and for Hill to get on site.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really important that we are, you know, able to use our capital in that way.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: So not only are we delivering great home people, but we're also, you know, ensuring that the supply of homes keeps moving forward because we were able to come in and potentially do the affordable homes first, which again is really, really positive.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And are you able to access grant from Homes England that the developer wouldn't be able to access on their own?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, yes.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we are a strategic partner of Homes England.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so generally the association and affordable housing program is open to mainly registered providers like ourselves and traditional registered providers.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: There are a few developers that are in there as delivery partners, so Vistry is one, for example, but in the main, it is housing associations or registered partners that are able to access that grant.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we are strategic partners of Homes England.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the through the last programme we invested about 130 million to deliver 1200 homes, and we are just waiting to find out what our allocation is going to be in the next round.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And on Coventry, were there any sort of key challenges in bringing that scheme forward?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the big challenge that we had, it was the timing of it and the fact that we were coming up to the end of the first grant programme that we'd been involved in.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we, as a for-profit, do have a different set of rules than the traditional RPs.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And partly it's very understandable, partly that was because we were relatively new to the sector.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when you're dealing with when you're being allocated public public money, there is a level of scrutiny that goes around it.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think as we move through into the second, into this next round, there is more experience and there is more knowledge around for-profits and what we, you know, how committed, particularly, you know, what we're doing at LNG, how committed we are to great quality delivery.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so hopefully the differences will smooth out.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the differences we had was as a for-profit, we had to ensure all our homes were delivered by March 26, whereas the not-for-profits had until March 28th.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so we had a lot of negotiation with Homes England to look at how we could extend our date because with the Building Safety Act and with Gateway 2, we certainly weren't going to be able to deliver by March 26th.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: But equally, we knew we could do it by March 28th.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a lot of conversation that was had, really sort of collaborative, because you know, Homes England had already invested in the site, the combined authority had already put funding in the site.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it was definitely everybody wanted it to happen, and they could see that actually if we could just ensure that we put the right sort of safeguards in place around the grant that we were getting, that actually we could take that grant and get the project moving.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, but it took a long time.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: That was 12, probably 12 months of negotiation.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: But having done that, will it be easier on sort of subsequent schemes with Home Singham because you've set the ground rules?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we're in a different world now because there's now the 10-year grant program.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that was always the issue with the previous grant programmes that are five years.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: When you have big schemes like your big regeneration schemes and Coventry as an example of that, they go over a number of years.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, really difficult to do substantial delivery within a five-year window.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly given the issues that we've had within the development world, you know, whether it was COVID or whether it's been increased cost construction costs or, you know, interest rates going up, whatever it is, it's it has impacted and slowed delivery.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really difficult to manage when you have got short grant programs.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that the next one is 10 years is really, really welcome because it does give the sector more opportunity to show continuity and to you know get the more complicated and larger scale schemes moving forward.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we're looking forward to the grant allocation so that we can uh carry on.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: It does make a lot of sense because if you look at you know some of the big regeneration schemes we've discussed, I mean, they take an awfully long time.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, King's Cross, Batterson.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that was one of the big things that, you know, I still look back to, you know, from an ALS Corp perspective, that importance of having flexibility in whatever you're doing, whether that's a flexibility in the Planning Commission or the way that you know contracts are put together, because so much change happens.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as you've got principle agreed, there must be that flexibility to enable change.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, one of the issues I think we grapple with as an industry is trying to settle too much too quickly and too early.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the policy framework is just not really set up to allow as much flexibility as is needed.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Really interesting because that's that's something that came up with James Scott from Urban and Civic, you know, the flexibility and just the speed of change at the moment.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then whilst we're talking about specific projects, Collindale, I mean, that is Northwest London.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just tell us a little bit about L and G's role there and what you were able to achieve?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what we did at Collindale is we purchased 311 homes from Barrett Red Row at their Collindale Gardens master plan.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And they were homes that were very close to completion.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we were in discussions with them uh sort of from the middle of last year, and we what we did is we utilized our funding plus GLA grant to purchase all 311 homes and convert all of those homes to social rent.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the original planning permission had open market sale, had private rent, shared ownership, and I think some social rent in there.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what we were able to do is utilize that grant and deliver 311 homes for social rent.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: The first homes completed in October, November last year.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the minute we exchanged and completed, we took ownership first 211 homes or 212 homes.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second 99 came to us in April of this year.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a really important project because what it meant was that Barrett Redway were able to, rather than having void properties, they were able to, you know, get a receipt for those, which then has enabled them to then think about phase two and keep delivering.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's an example of us coming in with our funding plus working really closely with the GLA to be able to show some net additional homes coming forward, as well as you know, keep the supply of homes moving forward because it's enabled the developer to carry on and keep delivering in the next phase.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're looking at potential opportunities, what are, I suppose, the key criteria for you to say yes?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, conversely, what would cause you to turn the scheme down?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, the partner and the counterparty that we're working with is always really important, you know, knowing that you are in contract with somebody that you trust, that you work well with, and that you know is going to deliver good quality.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because that, I suppose, from our perspective, we we're not builders ourselves.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a contractual relationship we have, you know, we set out the sort of standards and the requirements that we have, but you know, you want to be working with really good quality partners to ensure that the quality of homes that are being delivered is where you want them to be.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, definitely ensuring that you're working with a good quality partner.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Location is important, you know, wanting to be close to employment centres, good transport links, you know, from a sustainability perspective.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: We do have targets about delivering in areas of high demand and high need, but actually we're delivering all over the country, and every single housing waiting list has a very high number there.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, what I normally say is we can generally work in most locations.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: There will be some areas where viability is just a bit too challenging.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't been particularly successful, but in the main, most locations work for us.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: I do think, though, this is where interestingly the investment strategy comes in and influences the development strategy.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I would give the example of the work we're doing with the Greater Manchester Pension Fund, where we've got a fund of 100 million with them to invest in Greater Manchester.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what that has done is provided us with a real focus in that area.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we went from having, we're not having any homes within the pipeline within Greater Manchester to now we've got about 1400 across 12 sites.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it shows you if you're working collaboratively with the funding within an area, plus we're working very closely with Manchester City Council and Salford and Stockport and others, Oldham, we're just doing a scheme in Oldham, plus the combined authority.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a real kind of momentum and there's a real ambition to get on and deliver.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's from you know, over the years of experience, that's been the one thing bringing the investment and the development and the local together really has impact.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: It must take quite a lot of work, you know, to get you know onto the same page so that everybody is sort of moving in the same direction.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but again, and this comes back to partnership working, you know, everybody knows within a in an arrangement what everybody's in it for and what they're getting out of it.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, that example, the pension fund are investing in their local area.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So they're investing in delivering, you know, social and affordable housing, and they're getting a long-term stable return from that investment.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: The city authority is getting new social housing and reducing the number of people on the register, which is very large.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's something like close to 20,000 people on the housing register in Manchester alone, 7,000 in Salford.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're talking big numbers.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the cost of that, not just people that are on the housing rating list and sitting in temporary accommodation, but the impact that has from a health perspective, a mental health perspective.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the knock-on costs that local authorities will be seeing because of having large numbers that aren't in stable accommodation.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then we are delivering great quality, affordable homes.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're, you know, we're generating that return for our investors.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, there is a huge social benefit in what we are doing.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, everybody's role is very clearly defined.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: We know we've each got a very defined objective of why we're in this partnership.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where partnerships work well, when you have got that real clarity and you are all pointing the same direction with one vision, which in our case is, you know, ensuring that we deliver that social benefit through investing in great quality homes.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: You definitely need that alignment, but just sort of hearing you talking about, you know, the sheer numbers, and you know, we know that we have a housing crisis.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you sort of sometimes feel that you can't keep up with this, you know, so much to do that it's difficult to keep up with that demand?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: There is a lot to do, but there's also a lot of challenges to overcome.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: But do you know what it's so interesting?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wouldn't do anything else.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, genuinely you kind of think, you know, as we've sort of been talking about, I loved the planning side, I love, you know, being involved in creating places.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then also being, you know, having such an impact on changing, genuinely changing people's lives.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, some of the customers that we have living in our homes and the, you know, the positive impact it's had, you know, it has, you know, kids that have been living in one room for, you know, a number of years because they've been in temporary accommodation, and then you can give them their bedroom for the first time.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's it's real life stories and real impact.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it, and that's what keeps you, you know, motivated and wanting to do it.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, that is the other thing that I've learned.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is my first job in affordable housing.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: But wow, everybody that I work with, and not just at LNG Affordable, but you know, the other RPs that we do partnership work with, they are so passionate about what they're doing and the purpose behind it.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you do really feel that, I think, when you're working in this sector.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's brilliant.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we've mentioned planning a couple of times, and I think maybe it would be useful to just look at you know the challenges there because I know we talked a little bit about Heart Road.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so Heart Road was uh it's only a small scheme, 44 homes in Essex, net zero carbon, 100% affordable, and we still had to go to appeal, and we still had the same battles that you would have if you were doing, you know, a scheme for open market sale.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Not that open market, you know, open market sale will also be great because there was a real housing shortage in that area.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a fabulous scheme, but it you do have to be pretty resilient.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we originally signed the land deal, it was a conditional and planning land deal back in 21, I think it was.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: We submitted the planning application.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, the draft local plan got thrown out a week before the elections.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we'd been relying on a policy in that draft local plan, not relying on it, but it was allocating the site for residential.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: The party at the time, Conservatives threw that out because they knew that the independents were going to get in, but the independents did get in.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so unfortunately, we got a refusal at committee and then had to run it to appeal, which we won was a very black and white decision that was handed down by the inspector.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the point is, you know, that took two years, two, three years to get through planning for 44 homes in an area that needed affordable, they had a net loss of affordable housing in the borough, and they were net zero carbon.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you do sort of sit there and scratch your head thinking, gosh, but I thought this was going to be really easy coming to affordable housing.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just the same.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it's been a really successful development.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's sold out really fast, um, great quality, and we're really, really proud of it, but it's taken far too long, really.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Annette, why did they turn it down?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the site sits in Greenbelt, but it would now be classed as grey belt because it's sits within, it's sort of surrounded by housing.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: And the inspector, when they were going through the local plan, had allocated it for a residential master plan.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: It had been supported, it had gone through its final stages of review, and it just had that last hurdle to go through, which was the committee just ratifying or adopting the local plan, sorry.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at that stage it got thrown out.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: So suddenly, you know, we were back to actually development on Greenbelt.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where we were.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we just took it through to appeal.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we were 100% affordable anyway, so we had a very special circumstances case.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I think even in the plans for the revised local plan, it was going to come out of Greenbelt.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we felt pretty confident in the case.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the point for me, it's not around the detail, it's just that we, you know, where it makes absolute sense on sites to be delivering housing and it's a good quality, you know, it's going above and beyond, you know, there does need to be an ability to bring schemes forward with more certainty.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the point is uncertainty.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't want to bash planning because, as I've said, I love planning.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: I am a planner by background.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: The government are making big steps to improve the planning system.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what we see is helping to unlock my big issue is actually we still rely too much on planning officers that are not resourced enough to be able to deal with the quantum of work that is put in front of them.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they're being asked to determine so much around planning conditions and quite technical details that are just taking too long.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, we've got two or three sites with homes sat ready for households to move into, but we can't get our planning conditions discharged.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they're sat void and empty.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you just sit there and think, I can't be right.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I personally really welcome the changes that are being made, but I think there are some sort of detailed process changes that do also need to be picked up to just help smooth the way.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because yes, you might be able to get an initial planning consent quicker, but that's the start of the journey, it's not the end because you have so much to get improved as you move through the process.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that that really needs speeding up and some alignment.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And whether that's more delegated authority to officers, whether it's, you know, deemed approval if you've submitted your information, you know, after eight weeks it's not been determined to deemed approval, or if we just stop having such long lists of conditions attached to planning permissions, you know, there's all things like that that really do need to be looked at to speed up being able to get on and build and then occupy homes.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think well, hopefully government are listening, Annette.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: But uh so do you think, I mean, obviously you've operated on the sort of planning side and you know on the development side.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: So have a you know really good understanding of what the issues are.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, does that help you navigate the local planning authorities?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of very talented and very good planning officers, and the majority that I certainly deal with, you know, again, are doing it because they've got a passion for the built environment or they've got a passion for wanting to do the right thing.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's just been a lack of resource and a lack of investment in ensuring that there we've got the number of planning officers to be able to deal with the number of applications that are coming in and all the information that comes in after that has to be approved.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if you were given responsibility for sorting out our housing shortage, what what would be what would be your first three priorities?
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, I think it's really important to say that this isn't just about affordable housing.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: 50% of affordable housing gets delivered by the house builders and developers.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to have a market.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: All sectors of the market need to be functioning.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that is traditional house building and selling on the open market.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: It is our BTR sector, whether that is single family or multifamily, it is student accommodation, it's the whole sort of ecosystem of housing that needs to all be working to ensure that we can maximize the delivery of affordable homes.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: We can't do anything without the builders and the contractors delivering homes on our behalf.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it is really, really important that you know we're looking at the whole system.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a really challenging market out there at the moment.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Viability is a challenge with construction costs going up, you know, 20-30% in you know, the very recent times.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that this isn't just about delivering affordable, this is about delivering housing full stop.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know what's my wish list for the government.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean there does need to be a really clear vision and plan for housing, a housing strategy that is cross-party, that is agreed, that gives a real clear direction on what needs to happen.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel there needs to be a period of deregulation.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: We are in a really challenging time from a viability perspective, and therefore, you know, policies and additional costs that are coming through, unless they are going to have a material impact on safety, clearly, need to be looked at for a period of time to help improve viability, unlock and speed things up, and enable developers and builders to get on site and start building.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I genuinely feel that you know that's where the focus needs to be.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: How can you encourage and support our development industry to get on and develop?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's definitely one, you know, taxation and looking at, you know, SDLT.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, for-profits pay SDLT on acquiring affordable housing, our not-for-profit partners don't.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it's just looking at ensuring that we're on a level playing field so that we can maximise the amount of investment that we are bringing in and ensuring that the maximum number of homes can be delivered with the funding that we've got to bring in.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that should be looked at.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think with the launch of the National Housing Bank and the work that Homes England's doing, that's you know, innovation, being innovation.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Innovative about the way that homes are financed and sites are being brought forward is really supportive.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, the the work that that uh the team are doing over with the National Housing Bank is a big step forward.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're really supportive.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I do think that, you know, it does feel that the right noises are being made and the right steps are being made.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: And initiatives that are coming are being done for the right reasons in terms of speeding up.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think, you know, there needs to be some real thought about, you know, maybe some demand side initiatives to assist on the purchase side, you know, with interest rates going up and it being more costly or less affordable for people to get on the housing ladder, you know, it's really stopping people buying, and that is really impacting the house builders.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that demand side, that looking at the whole ecosystem, I think is incredibly important and needs to happen.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's really useful.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you ever, if you think about going into politics, Annette, I would vote for you.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you sort of manage this, you know, this role.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: You also have young children.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: How do you manage to hold it all together?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Who says I do?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, well, it's just all part of life, really.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think working at LNG has been amazing.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's flexible.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I do feel very lucky that you know, whilst I work incredibly hard, there is the flexibility to work from home.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's more flexible than it was, say, 10 years ago.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that has really helped.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I probably would say I couldn't do the role I'm doing without that, you know, flexibility around being able to work from home a couple of days a week, be in the office a couple of days a week, being around for the boys.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I think everybody is working really hard, and you just make it work, I think.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a very supportive husband who, you know, it's 50-50.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: We just get on and, you know, we do it together, really.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's incredibly important.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: But at the heart of it, I really enjoy what I do.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the boys see that.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: They see that, you know, I enjoy, you know, coming up to London, I enjoy, you know, being at work.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk to them regularly about what I do and why I do it and the purpose behind it, and they get that.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important for particularly young boys of number minor 13, you know, seeing their their parents work, but also seeing their mum work and being out there and you know, and enjoying what they do.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, of course, they are twins, so double trouble.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, Annette, just one final question.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: When we invite you back in five years' time, what do you hope will have changed in the housing market?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: What actually what do you expect will have changed in the housing market?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Starts on site to have improved.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: But do you know what?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: I just think to get the development sector back, you know, if you think back five, ten years ago, it was really inspiring, it was busy, it felt really vibrant.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I would really hope to be getting back to that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't see why we can't.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: The demand is absolutely there, and that you fundamentally know that housing is needed.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm confident we can get back to that.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think where it is really interesting, and certainly the difference that I see from you know my CapCo days is the role that institutional capital is playing now in the investment in housing, which wasn't necessarily there previously.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the more that we can create that stable, certain policy environment that de-risks it for investors to come in, you will see that investment coming in.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a lack of investment wanting to come into both the affordable space but the housing space.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I would hope in five years there is more of that investment coming in because there is a more stable and certain environment that has been created through some of the policies that are being put in place now.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's what I would hope it's been.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hope so.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Annette, thank you so much for your time today.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've really enjoyed talking to you.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's been great.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Annette, for talking to us about your role and how Energy is using institutional capital and grant funding to provide much-needed affordable housing.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's also fascinating to hear about the importance of the relationships with your partners and the alignment of interests so that everyone knows what they're getting out of the deal.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's clear you're passionate about your role, so keep up the good work.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm also so pleased you mentioned working with the late Setery Farrell on Earl's Court and for mentioning his generosity of spirit, which will not be forgotten.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that's it for now.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Please join us for the next Property She podcast interview coming soon.
• 48:44
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• 48:56
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• 49:04
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• 49:11
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• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: See you again soon.