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SMTNY Classics: Misinformation, Disinformation and Gender Justice · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan'll
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never Told You a protection of iHeartRadio, and we were
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: back with another classic as we're moving closer to the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: US election of twenty twenty four presidential election. Excuse me,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: this one is from like right after the twenty twenty
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: presidential election, so you can probably hear it in our voices.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Oh so much, oh oh so much. I was violently
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: ill with stress and that is not a lie.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, So this is another episode where Bridget Todd, a
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: friend of the show, came on and really broke down
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: about how misinformation and disinformation we're coming into play and
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: how it all impacts gender justice and why it's so
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: important that we're aware of it, which is something we're
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: going to have to keep in mind in this election season.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So please enjoy this classic episode.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to steff
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. Today, listeners, we're
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: so excited to once again be joined by our friend
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Bridget Todd.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Hello, Bridget Hello.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be back here with y'all.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: We're so excited to have you for the series that
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: you have about women on the internet, where I suggested
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: it be called winternet, but no one replied.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, I like that.
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: I think it's very positive. Women are winning the internet.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: We're winning it every day. I like it all right?
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: That to me, I was like, someone has to explain
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: to me why you said this again, because I'm confused.
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: It because it's a winter is it because we're approaching winter?
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: No women on the internet? Winternet?
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: And you know, I was waiting after I sent that
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: anxiously for positive feedback of my genius. The hours sticked
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: by no response. Anyway, I thought i'd bring that up
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: just to comfort myself.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: We are very glad to have you.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: And before we started recording, we were just chatting about
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: the election and some of our thoughts around that, and
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I did want to ask Bridget, since you're in d C, how.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Has that been.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: Well, it's been a can I swear show? Yea, it's
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: been a bit of a show. What's wild is that,
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: as we were just talking about, it's not over, you
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: know here in DC, our city before the election, our
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: city was sort of hunkering down, as I'm sure George
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: Atlanta was to putting, you know, boards on the windows
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: and that kind of thing. This weekend there's going to
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: be a Proud Boy march in d C. So we're
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: all sort of preparing for that. So it feels very
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: much like even though the election happened, we're still sort
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: of dealing with the impacts. But I do know, even
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: though I was not in DC on Election Day, all
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: my friends and you know, neighbors and community were and
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: it was a party on the streets. Like I cannot
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: tell you, I knew people who were going to be
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: happy when Trump was voted out of office. I didn't
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: know it was going to be spray champagne with strangers
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: in the streets happy. I didn't know it was going
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: to be people hanging out of like windows, screaming and
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: jubilation happy. And I can tell you I have never
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: the only thing I have seen that came even close.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: I happened to be in Paris when France won the
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: World Cup. That's the only thing that came close to
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: like the vibe on the streets in d C.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard that it was champagne. Cells in d
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: C were higher than the past two New Years combined.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Yes, I think we're just you know, as as a
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: city I've lived in.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: DC for most of my life.
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: I think that people from d C like like d
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: C long haulers. We really have a lot of like
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: city pride. And so I think when you know, I
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: lived here during the tail end of the Bush years,
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: I lived here for all of the Obama years and
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: then the Trump years, and I think the Trump years
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: just were so sad and dark for people who lived
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: in DC, and they were like, oh, this guy's in
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: my town, in my community. I once saw Avanka Trump
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: outside of a.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Soul cycle in d C.
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: You know, It's like you would see these people, and
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: so I think the vibe is just so jubilant that
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: we are rid of them, that we don't like column
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: in January, they will leave and we might have to
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: see them again.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: That is very.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Exciting, though, you know what, I immediately felt like brain space.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: It was amazing. Just get freed up.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: It's like take it off your bra It really was.
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: I felt, like I think I just said, it felt
• 5:11
  Speaker 5: like I had just finished running and I was at
• 5:13
  Speaker 5: that point, I'm just sitting exhausted, but at least one
• 5:17
  Speaker 5: less thing was on us and on me. I was
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: like yep, yep, okay. And now I'm gonna pass out
• 5:21
  Speaker 5: because now I can rust exactly, but we can't.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: No, no, And I do want to say I've getten.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: I've gotten an habit of saying the date, which is
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: always a risky proposition. But today is Friday the thirteenth,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: so I do know it of March, just because as
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: we record this, of March, I was so proud of myself.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: For the thirty you were so close. There was a
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Friday the thirteenth in March.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there was.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: You're correct, but it's not see I'm I'm very well.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Yes it's November. I okay, thank you for that correction.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Very important, But just because as we record this, Trump
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: still hasn't conceded, conceded, so you never know, things changed
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: really fast these days. But the last time you were here, Bridget,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: you were talking a lot about misinformation and disinformation and
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: all of that, especially ramping up to the election and
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: the intersectionality of it when we talked about gender or race,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: And now that the election has happened, that's something that
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: you wanted to revisit.
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: You know, I have been studying and working on disinformation
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: for a while, and I kind of erroneously thought like, oh, well,
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: when the election happens, we will be able to close
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: the door on this Pandora's box a false information, online harassment,
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: most leading stories and the like. How wrong we were,
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: you know, Luckily, election officials really were predicting that from
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: the time the election happens, so from November third to
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: the time that we had an uncontested you know winner
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: that everybody agreed on, that would really be a hotbed
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: of disinformation.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: And that really was exactly what we saw.
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: So I'm happy that some people were at least prepared
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: for it, and like we're taking the actions and the
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: steps necessary to like get us all on the same
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: page about what we would be seeing, because that's exactly
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: what happened. You know, on election day, even as the
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: votes were still being counted, Trump tweeted that he had won,
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: he declared himself the winner. Obviously that's like just a fabrication,
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: is based in nothing. So yeah, we really saw false stories, disinformation,
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: and like outright lies being spread about our election and
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: our democratic process from election.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Day itself, Yeah, and ongoing. Like it's one of those
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: things that I'm almost surprised. It can still surprise me
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: that so many people eagerly are buying into these things,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: just you know, the accounts of dead people voting, like
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: millions of dead people voting, or sharpies all the things,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah, and Charpie gay and seeing like Trump's twitter
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: line and like twitter line, twitter feed and every tweet
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: was being flagged right for all this passing of false information.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: And I know we're going to talk about like.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: How has social media been Have they been doing anything
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: about this?
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: So I'm sure.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: I'm sure the last time I was here, I was
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: crapping on social media platforms, and they deserve to be
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: crapped on, By the way, I am not conceding that,
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: but I will. I have to give them this. I
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: do think they are trying. They have spent a long
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: time kind of dragging their feed, and so part of
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: me wonders if it's like a little bit like too little,
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: too late, But I want to give credit where credit
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: is due. I do think some of these platforms just
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: saw that, like certain things just can't be left up.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: And so as Annie, as you just said, Twitter was
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: taking down or at least putting disclaimers on Trump's misleading
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: tweets about the election on election day. In the day
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: after his Twitter feeds looked like one of those redacted
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: memos or things are like blacked out, as he was
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: tweeting so many false or misleading lies. I'm at the election,
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: and so I was happy to see that. You know,
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: Facebook has announced a couple of changes that they're making,
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: including turning off their group recommendation features, so that, like,
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: you know, if you are in a group that might
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: typically how people get radicalized on a platform like Facebook,
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: You'll be in one group and then Facebook's algorithm might
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: be like, oh, well, you enjoy your Second Amendment rights,
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: maybe you want to be part of this group that
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: advocates for exercising those Second Amendment rights at a polling station, right,
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: like right, you know, these these groups inch up more
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: and more aggressive and more and more extreme, and so
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: they turned off that feature, and it's not clear when
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: that feature will be turned back on.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: Actually, right before coming.
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: To chat with you, ladies, I was in a call
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: with Facebook senior leadership and they are not it's not
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: clear when they are going to be turning this feature
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: back on, but like we think it shouldn't be at
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: least until after inauguration. Just so that you know, we
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: can close this chapter and move on to the next chapter.
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: I'll say, like, you know, as much as I crap
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: on the leaders of these social media platforms, it is
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: better for them to do something than nothing. So I
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: definitely want to give a credit where credit is due
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: in terms of them taking actual steps to you know,
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: address this.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I was shocked when I saw that they were gonna
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: until inauguration day. I was very happy, but I was surprised, right,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: and uh, Cheryl Sandberg specifically has kind of been a
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: part of this conversation, right.
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: Oh, yes, So what's interesting about Cheryl Sandberg, and I
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: should say full disclosure, Like I bought her book Lean In.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: There was a time in my life where her brand
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: of feminism I was like down to give it a shot,
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: you know, I wanted to see what she had to say.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: I think it's been interesting how she has really been
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: able to largely avoid a lot of the heat. Like
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: when you think about tech platforms behaving badly, I feel
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: like Mark Zuckerberg really takes up.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: A lot of the air in the room.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: And we kind of let Cheryl Sandberg, at least in
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: my view, kind of skirt by. You know, I think
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: for a while I think there was a vibe that,
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: you know, Zuckerberg and these tech bros at Facebook are
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: just running wild, and Cheryl Sandberg is doing the best
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: she can to like rain them in. Now, I think
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: that that that reputation was completely unearned. I think that
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: these days she is definitely taking some heat. Karas Swisher
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: earlier tweeted, Cheryl Sandberg and the rest of Facebook executive team,
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: you're presiding over a toxic and dangerous stew of misinformation
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: and purposeful propaganda. And it is a clear abdication of
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: the job that you are charged with for those of
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: us who know you personally, for shame, and that's a
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: pretty I imagine that these two women are probably friends
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: in the tech space, and I think, you know, gone
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: are the days where you can just sort of be like, oh, well,
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: I work here, but like, you know, I'm doing the
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: best I can. I think that people are fed up
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: enough that I think that even people who have been
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: able to avoid this kind of this kind of scrutiny
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: are getting pulled into it. Right.
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: And yeah, I actually just saw another tweet about the
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: fact that you are now a part of the problem,
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: even if you weren't the one or you aren't the
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: one propagating these things. If you work for them and
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: understand this is what's happening, you are complicit to their
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: neglect and or feeding into this disinformation and this use
• 12:21
  Speaker 5: of abuse or for another brand or another conversation or
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: the bigger conversation of the abuse that the presidency has
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: done in the past four years and or their followers.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's such a good point.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: You know what's so interesting to me about this is,
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: you know, there was a time in my life where
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: a job at Facebook would have been the most exciting
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: thing in the world for me. But those days are
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: gone because I would never work at Facebook. But you know,
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: I've often wondered, like, when are we going to see
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: Facebook and some of these platforms that allow for our
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: democracy to be attacked in these ways. When are sort
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: of individual rank and file tech.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: Employees going to When are we going to make it
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: like an uncol place to work, right?
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: Like, I feel like there's so many industries where you know,
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: if you choose to go into this industry, people might look.
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: At you a little bit funny.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: And I think we're seeing those conversations happen now.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: But what I also think is very interesting is that
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: at a.
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: Lot of these companies, oftentimes it's just the rank and
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: file staff who want to be part of the solution.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: They want they don't want.
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: To be making tools that like wreck our democracy and
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: like wreck our elections. They want to be They got
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: into tech because they want to make change. And I
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: think what we really see now is like rank and
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: file staffers trying to agitate from within, but the leadership,
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: the people who actually have the power within the organization
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: to do something, not listening.
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: To them, which happens so often exactly, they're just looking
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: at numbers in the story and not listening to what's
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: the actual real world ramifications of what's happening. I was
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: actually using Facebook as my point of trying to see
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: where we were on the election night, like Okay, this
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: state has been called, and this state has been called,
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: and this state has been called. And it was really
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: interesting to watch the different people react on Facebook as well.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: And it's really really disheartening because.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: It's not just the president and his little minions, it
• 14:19
  Speaker 5: is the Republican Party who are backing him, and that
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: is so so dangerous for them to sit there and
• 14:26
  Speaker 5: be like this is all false, this is all uh
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: not legal votes or illegal votes, which is a whole
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: other rhetoric in itself and so disgusting. But then it
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: starts you started questioning, well, you you just got to
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: reelect it. Do we need to look at your numbers
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: as well?
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, what is happening with.
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: This conversation and why are they dissecting it in such
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: a way that people believe parts and bits of lies
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: but not the whole actuality.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: That's such a good point.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: It's what's so funny is if you look at the
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: different claims that are being made. All of these claims
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: are baseless. But if you look at the different claims
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: are being made that like, oh there was a voting
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: in regularity here, there's voter fraud there. So many of
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: them are that they couldn't all be true.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: Right, Some of them are contradictory.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: Some of them like are opposite where you're like, oh,
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: so they were throwing poles in the river, and also
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: the sharpie thing and this watermark thing like it would
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: it would be. It's not possible for them all to
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: be true. It's just like such a such a like
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: mixed bag of wild ass conspiracies, and no one has
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: stop like we're just like picking and people are just
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: picking and choosing the ones that suit them. Like in
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: some states they're saying stop the count and other states are.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Saying, no, continue the count. It's like, well, which one
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: is they? Can't you both?
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I have a firm believer people will do all kinds
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: of mental gymnastics to believe what they want to believe.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: So I guess looking at these claims that we saw
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: during the election, could you I know you've talked about
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: it a little bit, but how did we see them
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: play out? What should we continue to look for and
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: what ultimately is like the main purpose of these.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: It's a great question. You know.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: Definitely Trump was the one I feel leading the charge
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: into this idea that the election was rigged in some
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: way or you know, that something fishy happened to be
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: like absolutely, one hundred percent crystal clear, there has been
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: no documented evidence of voting a regularity of any kind
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: in this election. It's not it's just not there. There
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: is no it's just like end of sentence period, point blank.
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: And so we see these continued, this continued narrative that
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: the election was stolen or rigged, all the things that
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: y'all mentioned this whole Sharpi Gate thing, this idea that
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: poll workers were ripping up Trump votes or like that
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: a Biden Harris van like something like something i'd have
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: Scooby Doo or something like a Biden Harris ban man.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: They weren't.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: They're smart enough to try to rig election. They're not
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: smart enough to not have Biden Harris on the side
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: of the van. They pull up in sure mixed complete sense.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: You know, these stories of like a van pulling up
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: and like bags of ballots being like smuggled out and
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: then speeds away. This is stuff from movies. This is
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: not reality. So all of these like baseless claims. And
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: I think the point is one when you have so
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: many different claims of voting in regularity, I think one
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: of the points is just to overwhelm. It overwhelms both
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: like fact checkers and poll workers, people whose job it
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: is to look into this kind of thing. And I
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: think it is overwhelmed your average person when you hear
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: over and over and over and over again all of
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: these stories amplified about voting regularities and the election being
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: ragged on all of that. Eventually, when you hear things enough,
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: it doesn't really matter if there's evidence or not. It
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: doesn't really matter if it's true or not. That's how
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: disinformation works. It creates this sort of false reality and
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: it kind of doesn't even.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: Matter if there's evidence or if it's true.
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: And so, unfortunately, the point of all of this is
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: to drive home this idea that our elections are rigged,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: the election was stolen, that our democracy does not work.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: And I have to say, unfortunately, I think in some
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: ways Trump has been a little bit effective at doing this.
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: I think despite the fact that there have been no
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: documented cases of voting a regularity in this election, we've
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: already seen like Republican leadership using the phrase illegal votes, right,
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: And so even that phrase itself is a misnomer, and
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: I'm so disappointed to see that that phrase is making
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: its way into our vocabulary, because you can't have illegal
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: votes if there's no documented widespread voter or regularities or frauds.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: So it's like it's like a fiction, and.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: It's disappointing to see the way that this fiction has
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: already been sort of like made real in the minds
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: of some people.
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: And I, you know, I just think.
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: Obviously, no elected officials should be getting up should be
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: using their platform to lie.
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: But I think when you lie to people about the.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Efficacy of our democracy, that is something that is something
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: that's like truly beyond the pale, like right, just like
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: really sit with that. We have the leader of our
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: country purposely trying to make people lose faith in our
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: democratic system. Like there are plenty of people who have
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: been in the White House, who've been elected officials, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: I didn't agree with it. I didn't like, but they
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: wouldn't do that, Like that is.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: A very different thing, right, I mean, he.
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: Kind of Trump was the basis of having his personal
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: account being constant during his term.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: No one else did.
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: No one else had the to this level, especially with
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: the followers. And I didn't want to ask specifically to
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: the language how big Obviously it's a big key, But
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: it seems like Trump in himself has figured out that
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: if he makes specific phrases that are grammatically able to
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: be catchy enough, then it spreads like wildfire. How dangerous?
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: And how often has that been news? Especially for this election.
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: I know that's a random asked question, but no, no,
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: I was just thinking about that.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: It's a it's a great question.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: You are exactly right, And what's so annoying about Trump?
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: Like I hate I hate to give him.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: Like your your listeners who like don't feel the way
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: that I do about Trump are probably like, we get it.
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: You hate Trump, But the thing that gets me about
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: him is that he's so effective at certain things. And
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: one of those things is just what you said, right,
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: speaking in sound bites and quotables. And I think you know,
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: like even that phrase itself illegal votes, if you didn't
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: know any better, it sounds it sounds so reasonable, like
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: like Avanka Trump tweeted, I think the day answer the election,
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: we should count every legal vote and don't and not
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: count illegal votes.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: This shouldn't be controversial, And on its base, you're like, oh,
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: who would disagree with that?
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: But when you actually take it apart, when you have
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: to like bring in a little bit of nuance or
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: like thoughtful and this is around it, you think, wait
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: a minute, there aren't there aren't illegal votes, So like
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: why even have that be in the conversation. It really
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: creates this like false equivalency. But I think you are
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: spot on and that Trump has this ability to speak
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: in sound bites or tweets that can really catch on,
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: Like think of all these like wacky nicknames that he's
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: given people like Sleepy Show and you know, all all
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: like little Marco, Like he, I mean, I have to
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: give it to him. He I know a catchphrase when
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: I hear one, and like he really you can.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: Just really tell.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a lot more to get into in
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: this conversation, but first we have a quick break for
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Am We're back, Thank you, sponsor.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: One thing I've noticed, and I do attribute this to
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: this spread of misinformation and disinformation and Trump being really
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: effective at this is my sense of real reality is
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: really warped now. Like I feel like I can't trust
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: things that should I should be like, yes, that is
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: the truth.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I don't have that anymore.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Like I remember when people were texting me about that
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: four seasons total landscaping.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: I was like, I don't this can't be true.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: And I was like looking at it like just I
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: don't know reality.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean it was hilarious. I'm glad it
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: was true.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: But that's just something I feel like this whole election
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: we're going to have to reckon with and all of
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: this misinformation and disinformation. And when we were chatting before
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: we were talking about being in Georgia, which right before
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: we came on was sort of officially projected to be
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: a blues state, and we have these looming senate races
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: to senate races in our state. So I know that
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: this isn't going to go away anytime soon. But even
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: for people outside of Georgia, now that this presidential election
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: has come and gone, why is it important that we
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: keep having these conversations about disinformation and misinformation?
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'm so glad you asked that. Well, one thing,
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: I do want to go back to something that you
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: said about, you know, this feeling of living in a
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: false reality. I definitely identify with that. Like the total
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: landscape I think was a good example. When the story
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: first broke that Trump had COVID, I remember thinking, like, does.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: He really have it?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: Is he just saying that? Like?
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: And it really revealed to me the depths to which
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: I felt like I had been sort of gaslighted by
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: this administration.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Whereas like I could, I felt like I couldn't trust
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: my own perception of reality.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: And during the day before the election, my father, who
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: is you know, sixty five, he had a health incident
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: and so we went to the hospital and let me
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: tell And so the issue that he had was like cognitive.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: He was having trouble with his memory and having trouble
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: kind of like understanding what was going on.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: He's much better now, but that was a situation on
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: election day.
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: And let me tell you when we were trying to
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: watch election results, he would he would be like asleep
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: and then wake up and they would be showing like
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: a little clip of a speech where Trump appears to be,
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: you know, claiming himself the victor, and my dad would
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: be like, wait, did Trump win? And it was so
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: difficult for me to be like, I know that you're
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: I know that you've been in and out. I can't
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: explain to you why this is not Like I know
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: you're seeing Trump say that he won on television. All
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I can tell you is it's not true. I know
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: it seems like it happened, but trust me that it didn't.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, this is a wild ass thing.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: They have to be explaining to somebody that, like, like,
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: why am I watching Trump on TV say that he
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: won the election when the election does not seem to
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: be over.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: I was like, I know, Dad, it's wild. What can
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: I tell you.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: But to your question, you know, in terms of what
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: we should be looking out for now, you know this
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: is not over, and we will have to continue to
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: be vigilant about disinformation and misinformation. It's like more so,
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: I think than that we were before. You know, well,
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: the entire control of our Senate is going to come
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: down to Georgia. We've already seen disinformation on social media,
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: specifically as it pertains to poll workers and vote counters.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: Right We've had stories of people who had to go
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: into hiding because of rumors spread on social media about
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: the vote count process. And we know that when we
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: could get to these Georgia runoffs, that's just going to
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: be worse. And I have to say, the majority of
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: poll workers in this country are women and black women,
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: and so we know that black women and women are
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: disproportionate recipients of attacks when it comes to disinformation on
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: social media, and so it's only going to get worse.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: And that's why it's so important that these platforms and
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: these companies figure out what their commitment is to protecting
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: our democracy now right like it is, we know it's
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: going to happen. It is not enough to just wait
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: and let poll workers be attacked and let Facebook be
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: used to you know, organize people who want to show
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: up in real life with weapons for like extreamist meetings.
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: You know, in real life, we know that these things
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: are threats. We know that these things are going to happen.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: So what we want is for people to be the
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: people with power to be proactive at building a plan
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: for what they are going to do when these things happen,
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: and to stop them before they start. But you know,
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: even though we have a winner, a new president, it
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: is not over, and it's just going to be that
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: much more important. Also with the fact that Kamala Harris
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: is going to be in the White House, we know
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: that when Obama was elected, it's not like birtherism and
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: racist attacks on him stopped.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: In fact, they got worse.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: And so I think with a black woman in the
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: White House, we are going to just continue to see
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: these real horrible attacks rooted in her her identity continue
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: to flourish.
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: Right, And then speaking of you did mention about that
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: the most of the bullworkers being women as well as
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: Kamala Harris.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: The thing that she goes through.
• 26:53
  Speaker 5: How is disinformation and misinformation a gender justice issue? How
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: is that pertaining to women specifically in so many different ways.
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: You know, even just look at COVID, The majority of
• 27:03
  Speaker 5: essential workers are women. The majority of people in the
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: healthcare field are women. However, when we have like one
• 27:09
  Speaker 5: of the big topics where disinformation misinformation flourishes is COVID
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: and and how you stay safe with COVID, and so
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: if you have platforms that are allowing for misinformation and
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: false stories pertaining to COVID just flourish, you're hurting the
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: women who are essential workers.
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: Who who are who are the majority of the people
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: who are at the front lines of the of the
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: pandemic right now, healthcare workers, the majority of which are
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: women being impacted. And so really, when you start pulling
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: these things apart and seeing who is being hurt, which
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: communities are having to shoulder a disproportionate level of harm,
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: it's always women and it's always us.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, thinking.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: About these things from a perspective of like, oh, well,
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: it just arms everybody equally, that would be that would
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: be great if it was true. But we know that's
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: not true. We know it is women who end up
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: shouldering a disproportionate amount of the impact.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: That's a great point.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: I was researching some numbers around, like the predictions of
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: COVID cases in this winter that's been called a dark winter,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and I was so like, I was getting anxious looking
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: at these things. And it's just so frustrating that you
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: have a safety measure that shouldn't have been politicized, but
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: it was, and now people are getting sick and dying
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: because of it. And it is a part of that
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: of getting these messages from the very top that you know,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: don't wear a mask.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I don't see the point.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: It's fine and seeing these stories and I mean, to me,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: they sound ridiculous of claims like well that you breathe
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the COVID back in and it's worse if you wear
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: a mask and things like that, but it's working, like
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: people are buying into it. Yeah, So you can really
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: see like the effectiveness of this and right now specifically
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: the deadly deadliness of it.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I really I'm so glad that you brought that up.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: I really think if we ever are able to get
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: COVID under control, I think we need to have a
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: real serious conversation as a nation about the way that
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: we allowed sexism and stuff attitudes around gender to hurt people,
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: and a lot of those people were women, right, Like,
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: even on top of what you the point that you
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: just made about how masks were really feminized, it's women.
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: When you look at who the majority of the people who.
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: Have like lost wages and lost jobs and check that
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: out of the workforce altogether, it's women. Right. I've seen
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: story after a story about how women have just had
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: to like absorb the blowback of this pandemic, and so
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: on top of that, like like we're the ones who
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: are being disproportionately harmed and displaced and you know, marginalized
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: by the pandemic, and on top of that, like people
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: are still equating just like the basic common sense protocols
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: of how we can like stay safe with like women
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: there therefore bad, you know, talking about how like wearing
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: a mask makes you like some kind of a like
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know, feminized soyboy or something. It really is
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: so harmful. And if there's ever been something that showed
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: us how dangerous and corrosive and toxic like these ideas
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: of gender can be, it should be the pandemic, right.
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: I Mean, we saw it in just environmental issues that
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: was so gendered and they're like, wait, we're trying to
• 30:25
  Speaker 5: save the world, and you want to say you can't
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: do that because it makes you look feminine. Oh, what
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: in the hell's wrong with you? But it seems like
• 30:34
  Speaker 5: when it comes to carrying and empathy, it's automatically assumed
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: that that is going to be feminine and that it
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: shows weakness. To show that you care shows weakness, so
• 30:42
  Speaker 5: therefore don't do it. And it's such an absurdity. Because
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: we talked about this the last time, how Donald Trump's
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: campaign all rode into that that masculine is the only
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: way to be and if we really want this country
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: to be great again is to go back to the
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: norm of heteronom ideas of the nineteen twenties. Essentially, it
• 31:03
  Speaker 5: is such an absurdity in itself that we would rather
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: look strong and I say that in a very loose
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: manner than to.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Care for others.
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's such a so absurd and you know,
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: and seeing that also is the same thing with the
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: misinformation and disinformation in the politics. I've seen the misinformation
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: that's happening already in our Senate race, where they're taking
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: things out of context and sending it out where they're
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: allowing for Trump tactics. I don't know if there's going
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: to be like an actual term for that soon where
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: our Republican senators and companies are using that and fell
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: fully into that. The point that we have a QAnon
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: person going into the House that's representing us because they
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: are allowing for this as the norm, and the fact
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: of the matter is it's still working enough that we
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: have a runoff instead of a win.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: Like yes, a thousand times yes, I could not. I'm
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: like snapping my fingers and nodding my head in agreement,
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: and like just really think about that. The fact that
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: caring about others empathy, that's being framed as something that's bad,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: something that you don't want from your your leaders, right
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: that is that doesn't make any sense. It's good to
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: care about others. Caring about others is not a bad thing.
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: I think when Biden did his town hall, and just
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: to be clear, like I'm happy that he's going to
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: be our next president, but like he is not the
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: end all be all of like progressivism or by.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Any means, but what he did is town hall.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: I don't remember who it was, but some Republican was like,
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: oh it was almost like watching mister an episode of
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: Mister Rogers, you know, it was just like like we
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: get it, you care And I was like, why is
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: that a bad thing?
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: Like like where are we what? Like what world are.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: We living in?
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Where?
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: You know, all cats tweets are good, like all all
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: caps tweets about how like you have been cheated?
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: And like empathy that's like like up as down, black
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: as white, yeah, and that's.
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: Wrong with.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: We do have some more for you listeners, but first
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for a quick break for a word
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're got to thank you sponsors.
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: I think the difference between the left and the right
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: right now, the extreme right, I will say, and the
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: extreme left. We don't see these people's I say we
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: the left does not see people as gods.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: This is not our choice.
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: This is not someone that like God blessed them into
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: the situation or whoever you worship made this person for us.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: It's gonna fix everything. No, we're just trying to find
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: out what normal is.
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: And we just really want to get back to the
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: point that we don't have to fight with people every
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: day about again the lies about the masks and the
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: lies about whether or not we should shut down, or
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: whether we should care, or whether we should fight with
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: a ten year old girl who cares about her environment, Like,
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: we just want to get to the point where.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: That's not a thing.
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: But we see that the right, like I have seen
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: so many freaking memes about Jesus touching Donald Trump, Like
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: I've never in my life been like.
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: What is with this? With this kind of level of
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: worship for a man.
• 34:23
  Speaker 5: Who does a cash honestly.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: In the end, other than wanting to win absolutely.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's what I always tell people, as someone
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: who has been in politics and activism and organizing on
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: the left for a very long time.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: No elected official is like your best friend, Right.
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: You are electing someone that you think you can move,
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: that you think you can push, that you are that
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: you are down to be holding accountable for four years.
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: And you know, I'm no huge fan of Biden Harris.
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: I'm I voted for them, I'm happy they're in the
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: White House, but I'm more happy to spend the next
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: four years pushing them and holding them accountable and you know,
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: making hard asks, right, Like, I think that when you
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: are picking an elected official, you want to pick somebody
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: that you can't see yourself holding accountable and not picking
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: like this is an American idol. You're not picking your
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: like you know, your best friend for life, or like
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: someone who you think is going to be, you know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: the best. Ever, it just doesn't work that way. Like
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: every I feel like every politician eventually will break your heart.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: And so you really just got to be thinking strategic
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: about who you pick and who you vote for. But
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: it's certainly you know, yeah, like this idea that Trump
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: has been blessed by God or something.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: I mean, like, I guess I have a lot of
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: questions about people who feel who feel that way. I guess.
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: Again, so do I because I'm very very confused. You know,
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: there's another thought, and this may be a whole episode
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: in itself, and I think we probably will. But the idea,
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: like when I'm talking about religion, when we're talking about
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: God in general, that that does play on this very
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: heteronormative idea of what is chosen and what is good
• 35:58
  Speaker 5: and what is not good, because you know, we can
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: talk about the fact that a majority of people who
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: are voting in the right are doing it based on
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: abortion right anti abortion and their quote unquote pro life
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: stance and that term should be done away with anyway,
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: and it does. It seems like it hones in on
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: women in itself, especially those who have grown up in
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: religious bases. And I wonder also because that's what I
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: see in play a lot of the time to get
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: at people for that stance, like the commercials and stuff.
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: One of the big conversations, one of the big points
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: they say is we are here to support police. We
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: are here to keep the way of life, the American
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: way of life. And it's such a weird rhetoric, but
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: it seems to work for those who are steeped in tradition,
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: as in fact that Judge Alito just has kind of
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: stepped into some controversy because he just finally said what
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: he felt and that he wanted to bring traditional American
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: households back to what it was and this is like,
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: this is love and this is morality. It's kind of
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: interesting that we can look at some of that misinformation
• 37:04
  Speaker 5: and making sure they use that as a prompt to
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: get those voters and to keep those voters in It
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: majority of works with older white women, Yes, it really is.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: It's so effective. You know, I've seen disinformation around abortion.
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: Like I've seen memes on Facebook, especially where they're trying
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: to they'll say like, oh, you're a woman can terminate
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: a pregnancy at you know, up until the moment that
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: she gives births. And it's like, no, if someone if
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: someone is term, if someone is doing an abortion that
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: late in the game, something else is going on, right
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: Like like we I've seen so many, so many instances
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: where it's just outright lies about abortion because disinformers know
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: that these topics that require a little bit of nuances,
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: that are emotionally charged, like those are the ones that
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: really work. And you know, I think I think that
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: you're right about it being something that really does move voters.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: And I have to say, a growing demographic of Latin
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: of the LATINX community voted for Trump and abortion was
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: an issue that they self reported as something that moved them.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: That they are not there, that they're not okay with the.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: Fact that the Biden Harris administration is pro choase, and
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: so I do think there is so much more work
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: to be done around how we message voters on these
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: topics that require a little bit of sensitivity and a
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: little bit of nuance to discuss I think that we
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: have so much work to be done, and I think
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: on the left, I'm excited to see us starting to
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: have some conversations around like, well, how can we provide
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: off ramps for people who have been misled by very
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: savvy disinformers. To be clear, I don't know what that
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: looks like, that is, like, I'm happy to have those conversations,
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: but I do think, you know, we have a country
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: where a good chunk of people have been really cruelly
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: misled by very effective disinformers are around things like QAnon,
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: around things like reproductive care, and I do want to
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: build off ramps for those people to be like, listen,
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: things got wild there and you got you got, you
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: got taken by somebody who did not have your best
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: interests at heart. Here's how we get you back to
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: where you need to be. You know, I want to
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: be part of those conversations.
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: Right, I mean that is a big question because I
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: definitely have you know, we've talked about it before with
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: my family and itself, trying to have these conversation and
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: just literally just fights and crying, like.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: That's what ends up happening.
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: But how do you approach this in a way that
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: you can have a constructive conversation without being angry with
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: one another, because you know, of course they have their ideas,
• 39:41
  Speaker 5: and I've heard my parents' ideas, and I grew up
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: under their parents, my parents' ideas, but I came from
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: that to this to see the practical, like, uh, this
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: is where the lives were, and this is why this
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: is incorrect. And I've been with friends who have had
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: to have as what they would call late term abortion
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: and not by the way I've heard it, heard them
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: recently say after birth abortions, and I'm still trying to
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: figure that out. So I'm like, are you talking about
• 40:04
  Speaker 5: killing babies? What's happening? So I think that in itself
• 40:08
  Speaker 5: has been a new platform too. I was like, y'all
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: are going real, real into this, but talking to them
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: about their tragedy and having to be there and the
• 40:18
  Speaker 5: fact that this is like going through these painful things
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: and then being accused of doing something so horrible as
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: in like you killed your child, right, you do this
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: on purpose?
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: And just to watch that.
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: Conversation and trying to sit down and I'm like, you
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: understand what you're doing, right, You are vilifying the very
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: people who are with you and want these children and
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: love these you know, love these unborn babies as you
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: want to you know, whatever you want to call and
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: term them. Is the fact that they intended to have
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: this child but they couldn't, and that is tragedy in itself.
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: But how do you have these conversations of like we
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: need to break down and being able to communicate with
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: each other, and also I need to be able to
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: tell you, hey, that video you just posted yeah as bullshit.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: It is ridiculous. How do you have these conversations? So
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: I have a lot to say about this one.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: I think on the abortion part of this specifically, I
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: think it really comes down to abortion storytelling. There have
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: been so many amazing groups like we Testify shout out
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: to Abortion, who have been doing such amazing work in
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: this space, really helping people tell their stories about their
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: abortion experience in a way that can counter some of
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: this misinformation and disinformation.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: I also think, you know, for heterosexual folks out there
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: or folks who have like male identified folks out there,
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: I don't like the fact that oftentimes talking about abortion
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: and talking about reproductive care is just seen as like.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: A woman's job.
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: Or a woman's role when we know that so many
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: men out there have benefited from an abortion.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: And I don't like the fact.
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: That it's just like on us as women to be
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: bearing our souls on something that is very sensitive and
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: like difficult to talk about.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's just up to us. And so I think
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: more men should.
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: Be stepping up to the plate and be like, yeah,
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: abortion impacted my life in these ways, and here's what
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: it looks like for us, or here's what it looks
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: like for me.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: Right, it shouldn't just be on us.
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: To shoulder this burden in terms of how we talk
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: to our families about some of the disinformation that they
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: can get wrapped up in. Pen America Foundation has a
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: wonderful guide if you just google pen America and misinformation
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: on how you talk to your family you know about disinformation,
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: And some of the things I recommend are do it
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: in private, Like you don't want to be doing it
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: on a public Facebook post one, because you might be
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: just like pushing that wild post into more people's feeds.
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: And then also it's like it's just it's weird when
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: you get called out in public.
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: People.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: It just people can be already on the defensive. So
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: if you do it in private, if you send them
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: a private message or call them on the phone, it
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: might be a little bit better, so that it's not
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: they're not coming from a place of like, well, all
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: my followers are watching this interaction and I have to
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: react in a certain way. So doing it in private,
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: and also just something else that you said, Sam, like
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: keeping empathy at the front of your mind, right, so
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: like remember trying to put yourself in this person's shoes.
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: I have found that nine times out of ten, people
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: who are getting caught up in lies and distortions on
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: social media especially, they are scared, they are fearful. They
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: are looking for answers. They're looking for explanations. They're looking
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: for anything that makes how they feel or what they
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: think or their worldview. They're looking for anything to make
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: that feel okay. And these disinformers know that, and they
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: are sure, you know, right as rain, they will be
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: there to fill that gap. And so knowing kind of
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: a little bit about the emotional situation that somebody who
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: is getting taken by disinformation, knowing a little bit about
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: where they might be, and being a little bit willing
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: to like have a conversation that acknowledges that one of
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: the reasons why I got involved in disinformation in the
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: first place is that I there's not really another.
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: Way to say.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: I feel like I lost a good friend to conspiracy
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: theories and disinformation, and I feel like I waited too
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: late to do the things that I'm suggesting that people
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: do now. Like I spent a lot of time getting
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: into like heated back and forth on Facebook where we
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: would be arguing in the comments and then people would
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: be like texting me about it and it would be
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: like a big tense thing. I later realized that I
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: was just pushing him further and further into this kind
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: of thinking, and you know, we are not friends now.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: And I look back and I think, gee, you know,
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: what would it have been like if I had took
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: the time to talk to my friend have a real
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: conversation about where he was at and why he was
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: being drawn to some of these wilder conspiracy theories on
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: the net, right, Like, you know, I would have probably
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: found out that he had just moved to a new
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: city and it was really lonely. I would have probably
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: found out that, you know, conspiracy theory groups online all
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: for a kind of like twenty four to seven online
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: community that he was probably craving. I would have out
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: all of this stuff, but I never took the time.
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: I did everything wrong, And I just I want people
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: to know that if someone that you love, if someone
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: who you have been in community with, you see them,
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: you see yourself losing them, you have options that you
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: can take. You don't have to do what I did,
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: which is to do everything wrong and then like you know,
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: bitch about it on Facebook and then like be salty
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: in the comments.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: You can you have what you have.
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: Resources that can help you figure out how to have
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: this conversation. But I do think we need to be
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: having these conversations, you know. I think that people that
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: get wrapped up in this they need to know that
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: are off ramps. They need to know that like they
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: will not be shunned if they if they come out
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: of it.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: I think that's very important.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Ah, that's great advice.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: And you've mentioned some some groups already, but if you
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: could go over some ways that they're these groups are
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: biting disinformation and misinformation and for folks who are interested
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: how they can get involved.
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, pen America is a great resource. They have
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: a great guide. As they mentioned, I would be remiss
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: if I had not mention my own organization, Ultraviolet. We
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: are a gender justice organization that tries to build political
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: and social power for women and non binary folks. And
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: we actually put out an ad calling out Cheryl Sandberg
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: about disinformation on Facebook. So definitely check that out, and
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: if you want to get involved, you can go to
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: act dot We are ultra violet dot org and check
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: out our campaign calling Facebook to be more accountable for
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: their platforms.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Love it, Yeah, I love it? Boom.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want UH to say before
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: we wrap up? And then obviously you can shut out
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: where listeners can find you.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: I would just say I know things you know earlier today, Anna,
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: you called our upcoming winter our dark winter, and boy do.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: I feel that.
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: But I would just say, you know, stuff is hard
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: right now, stuff is dark right now, But we have
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: each other. We got this, Like I don't I don't know.
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: I guess I feel like so much of my day
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: is full of doom and gloom and preparing for the worst.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: But you know, I think we have each other.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: We have spaces like stuff I've ever told you to
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: build community and have conversations and so when times are
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: scary or heart or cold and dark, just come back
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: to that. Just remember that we have community, we have
• 47:18
  Speaker 4: each other. We have We're not powerless, We're powerful in
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: each other.
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I'm gonna take that a little bit and
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: put it on my phone.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I love that, because right before we were talking, I said,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: how I found this article that said how are you
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: as become a triggering question? So I like this positive
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: note and I definitely have have been feeling it, which
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: was nice. It's it's almost like something was coming back
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: to life. It'd be that I hadn't realized to just
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: sort of died off for a little bit. So yeah, yeah,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: that's great, And thank you as always for coming by
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Bridget and having these conversations with us.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: We love it. They're so valuable. Where can the listeners
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: find you.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: You can find me on Twitter at Bridget Marie. You
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: can find me on Instagram at Bridget Marie and DC.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: And if you want to have more conversations about how
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: women are showing up on the Internet, check out my
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: podcast on iHeartRadio this very network called there Are No
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: Girls on the Internet.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, definitely do that.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: I'm still I'm so prepared, Bridget for the fan fiction episode.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm there.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: We gotta do it. I honestly, we got we have
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: to do it. It's happening. Yeah, it's happening.
• 48:35
  Speaker 5: You gotta do this one. She's ready, she is so
• 48:39
  Speaker 5: many terms.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, oh so excited.
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: Honestly, you should probably just like mute and just like
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know, do something else and kind of pretend
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: you're listening to me and let me get it out
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: of my system.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be offended at all.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: I love it. I love it.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I look forward to that, and we look forward to
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: having you back for the next next entry and what
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I'm sticking with the winternet. But if listeners have another
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: another better name, I will. I'm open, I'm open.
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: I like I like winternet. I think it's got a
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: nice ring to it.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, thank you. I need constant validation on
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: my title name.
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: That's all we keep you around, Bridget, constant validation and
• 49:26
  Speaker 5: good information.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: But also also that also that the listeners.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: If you want to reach us, you can email us
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: at Steph Mediamomstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never told you.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Thanks it's always to our super producer.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Andrew HOWARDK you, and thanks to you for listening stuff
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: I've Never told you the protection of iHeartRadio. For more
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio VI, is it the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your paper shows