Latest / In My Hometown / Marriage 2.0: The Slow Fade, Infidelity & Starting Over with Jill Savage

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Marriage 2.0: The Slow Fade, Infidelity & Starting Over with Jill Savage · In My Hometown

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Today in my hometown is Jill Savage.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: She is a marriage and relationship coach, author, and host of the No More Perfect podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: So glad you're here.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, welcome.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you talk a lot about the idea of perfect and perfection.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And in one of your books, No More Perfect Marriages, you talk about the perfect infection.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk and how that is basically the death knell for, or could be the death knell for a marriage?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit about that?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so it's the perfection infection.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the perfection infection is when we have unrealistic expectations about ourselves and we sometimes have unrealistic expectations about others.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: So when that enters, let's say our parenting, right?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have unrealistic expectations about ourselves and um sometimes what we can accomplish in parenting because we forget that our children have their own will, especially as they get older.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes we can have unrealistic expectations of our kids if we're not aware of like how they're wired and how they're different than their child, you know, than their siblings.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: But um in marriage, the perfection of affection can breed discontentment.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: So we can have unrealistic expectations, particularly about marriage or about our partner.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and what that's doing then is I like to say that the um the space between realistic expectations and unrealistic expectations is actually discontentment.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: So if we don't get our expectations in line, for instance, marriage is hard.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: That would be let's just go there, okay?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, I know that.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so if if we have an expectation that marriage shouldn't be this hard, which a lot of us do, we'll even say that it shouldn't be this hard.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to real marriage.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it is.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if it's always hard, maybe you need to get some help.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you need to sort through and figure that out.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: But but um, you know, oftentimes we'll have expectations of our partner, and it's based upon what we see in the movies, what we read in romance novels, and that'll fuel those expectations.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I believe we need to kick the perfection infection out of our relationships because when we do that, we will uh embrace reality and we will also increase our contentment.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think probably a lot of people say to you, well, that's easier said than done, because I think in action it's sort of it's harder.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I know too that uh you compare maybe your marriage or your husband to someone else, and you may do that internally, or you may even share that with your husband.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that that is hard too.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that we live in an environment of comparison.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh social media, you know, I love social media, but the negative side of that is that it has completely increased our ability to compare.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: My friend Karen Eamon says, you know, we all, you know, we we know the phrase, gotta keep up with the Joneses.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, 60, 75 years ago, you saw the Joneses at church on Sunday.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now you see the Joneses every time you log on to Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever is your your choice of social media.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so we've increased the likelihood that we will compare our very real insides to the highlight reels of other people.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we compare what happens is we compare our insides to their outsides.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: And when we do that, we come up with wrong conclusions.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we want to do is we want to start saying to ourselves, like, you know, let's just say you're in a grocery store, somebody's in the checkout line ahead of you, and they're they're going to, you know, naturally, because we do compare, we're either gonna look at them and going, I'm doing better than they are today.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or, oh, she's got it together and I'm feeling, I'm feeling frumpy, I'm feeling like I'm a hot mess, right?
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So either way, we're gonna compare one way or the other.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And in that moment, we have to say to ourselves, she has a backstory I don't know.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And that that will like pull us back from that ledge of comparison and kind of plant us on the firm on firm reality.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: What role do you think our friends play, especially women's relationships, but maybe men's too, in uh in that per perfection sort of realm?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And how much does it help to share?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a misery loves company person.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I I like to know that other people are going through whatever bad thing I'm going through.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me feel better for some reason.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think is it good to share with, you know, you're playing mahjong with your friends, share a bit about your marriage.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And is that does that help us to know, okay, someone else is going through something that I'm I would agree.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think when we share vulnerably and honestly, that's good.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: When we hold and, you know, I'm not saying you put your dirty laundry out there for everybody, but when, you know, sometimes we hold that back.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think then that perpetuates the perfection infection, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because then other people go, well, I guess it's only me.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, I do think that we need to share more honestly because when we do that, it helps to normalize struggles.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: It helps people to know they're not alone.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a gift we can give each other.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I uh so agree.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing is this idea.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked a lot lately with about this with my friends, is we're not, you know, we're to we're a couple, but we're individuals.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so we are not going to always agree on everything.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna want to do the same things all the time.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's also another realization that I would think is important.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think some of us come in to marriage with some unrealistic expectations.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe we saw our parents do everything together, or maybe we saw them do nothing together.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Whichever way it was, that's gonna set us up to go, that's normal.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it really isn't normal, right?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes we have to.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one of the things my husband and I say is that uh the home that we grew up in is our home internship.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it's where we interned on friendship, it's where we interned on conflict resolution, money, uh, faith, you know, all kinds of different categories of life.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes what we need to do is look at that and go, did that internship serve me well?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or wait a minute, I'm not so sure that I had a good internship on money management or friendships or that, and and it's like, okay, I think I have some things to learn about that.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: I have some growth opportunities.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: You need another internship.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I need to do a new internship.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love that too.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder how you we sort of brought this up.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how much does your growing up in a household and watching your parents, how much does your parents' marriage really affect the way that your relationship is?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, usually, hugely.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hugely.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when my husband and I work with couples, um, you know, we that that is primarily what we do.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're marriage coaches.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so we spend a lot of time with other couples and we've done it in our own marriage as well.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one of the first things we do is talk about, you know, we just invite them.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us a little bit about your your family growing up because that will give us a lot of insight into the dynamics, the expectations, the hurts, um, the places where we often unknowingly carry what we call junk in the trunk.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we might say, well, that was, you know, that was 30 years ago.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's not still affecting me.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: It is still affecting you.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have to be intentional about uh understanding it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't look back to blame, we look back to understand, to go, oh, that's why I do that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: For instance, I grew up in a loving home, loving family, um, very supportive family, but we were the buck up family.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so if life got hard, you buck up.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I carried that.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that was normal.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that was strong.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I carry that into my mothering.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: I carry that into my marriage.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm married to a tender-hearted guy.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and I got tender-hearted kids.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so what I find all of a sudden is I'm not very good at compassion.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not very good at figuring out emotionally or even tuning in emotionally with someone else.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not good at sitting in the pain with someone.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and I go, ah, ah, new internship, right?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like that was that was it.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I this resonates so much with me.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: I also grew up in a buck-up household.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that is how I operate as well.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I have had trouble in sort of that sitting in that um space for a little while without the pep talk immediately moving to the pep talk.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, the pep talk.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's a good way to put it.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh there's two phrases that probably uh I say in my head when I'm in one of those moments.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: One is I can respond with that makes sense, which is validation.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it doesn't make sense to me.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's say my husband's upset about something, and I would never be upset about that thing.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like it would, it would be like would roll off my back, right?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: But it makes sense in context of who he is, in context of his history, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: So validation, that makes sense that that would be hard or that that was a hard conversation.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second one is I can only imagine.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can only imagine how hard that was for you.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And those two are in my back pocket all the time.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: They were part of my new internship of learning how to sit in pain with somebody and to resist trying to fix it.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I've had to learn you got to feel, not fix.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I love that that that language that you're bringing into it and being able to sort of recognize that.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I wrote those down.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna, I'm gonna use those next time, but that is great.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, I've I'm coming up on 25 years of marriage, uh, and we're feeling really good about it, but um, we've we feel that we've changed each other a lot in how we fight.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we both came into the marriage fighting differently.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would you know, I came in sort of uh I've uh yelling, uh you know, things like that, and he really didn't, and now he's a big yeller.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really happy that I've changed some of the bad habits too.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, but I think some of that happens, but I think um what you're saying is about sort of really respecting the way the other the your partner is and trying to um and your kids as well, because all of this goes.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: Tuning into them, like being sensitive about how they're wired, you know, because if you've got a kid that's a buck-up kid, you can probably speak to them a little bit more forthright.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: But if you've got a tender-hearted kid, you've got to adjust that.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: And same in marriage.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I we've really got to uh to tune into how our our family is wired.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you said something before about the not looking backward, um, but you're looking to learn, or I don't know how you said that exactly, but you you look you look only to learn.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we look back not to blame, but to understand.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So speaking of that, yeah, how do you do that?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, um in my experience and in talking with a lot of my girlfriends, even recently we went to a dinner and we all talked about the one thing that we all bring up to our husbands could have happened 25 years ago, but it comes up, you know, on a regular still.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do you, how do we stop that?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and many of the ladies talked about the time of giving birth.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a very interesting um point that a lot of us felt for one reason or another that maybe our husband wasn't, didn't do something appropriately at that time.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then we all bring that back up.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: It just comes right back up.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: Man, that is where forgiveness really has to come in.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and forgiveness is letting go of a hurt and recognizing at this point, I I need to, I need to let that, I need to let that go.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I I don't want to um miss that it happened.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'll grieve that it happened.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Let's replace the anger and the blame with grief.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe he didn't show up in the way that you wanted him to because he didn't understand in that moment what was needed.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, maybe he was uncomfortable with the hospital environment, right?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say then the other piece of forgiveness is also uh compassion, having compassion for other people and where they're at in their life journey and where they're at in their understanding of relational things.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that, you know, when we can have some compassion for that, uh, again, looking back, you know, even with your parents, it's like um they did the best they could with the knowledge they had.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: We are a much more, you know, social media, the good side of it is it has brought a lot of education to us about emotional intelligence.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, 40 years ago, 50 years ago, they didn't know that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, many of our parents came out of the, you know, the depression.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: If we're older, for those of us that are older, those that are younger, maybe they were children of the depression.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that was the buck-up, you know, environment.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: So having compassion and going, they did the best they could with the knowledge they had.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm gonna recognize that.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna, I'm not going to deny the hurt.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna deny what was missing.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'll grieve that.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then once I am able to grieve that, I can move on from that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna again, something to uh intern on for me is to not bring up things from the past.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've been, you know, open about the infidelity in your marriage and sort of when you discovered it and how this has really helped to better your marriage and is your whole much of what you talk about is this idea of marriage 2.0.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um to talk a little bit about that.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, my husband and I talk very openly about that part of our journey.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was 15 years ago for us, and he really had struggled all of our married life with contentment.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: He had struggled with um his own identity.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I knew that.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: And we'd been in and out of counseling and you know, tried to work through things.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, on top of that, he's married to a strong woman.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have an inner strength in me, and um, and that didn't always work well.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes I misused my strength.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh, so anyway, though, um, he really hit a midlife crisis and uh and became involved with someone else.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh, and it got worse before it got better.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: He eventually uh separated.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I was heartbroken, but I also did not believe our marriage was over.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: I believed that if, and faith is an important part of my life, but if he would find his way back to God, he would find his way back to his marriage.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I just didn't feel released from it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so um it took a year.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, one of the things that um Dr.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Gary Chapman says, he's the author of the five love languages.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: He did the forward of one of your books.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: He did the forward, yes.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things he talks about is the tingles.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: He says, every marriage, every married person is is very likely gonna feel the tingles for somebody other than their partner.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Let's normalize that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna happen.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: See, what happens is sometimes we feel the tingles and then we go, oh, this is the answer.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is the tingles go away.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that and ultimately that's what happened with my husband's affair, is he got far enough into it that um he began to realize, wait, wait, wait, this isn't the answer.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so that woke him up.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, at that point in time, our he had told himself, our kids are gonna be fine.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, they're gonna probably celebrate that I finally like took this step.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: But they weren't.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we have five children.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, by that time, three of them were in their 20s, two were teenagers, and they were all beyond heartbroken.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so that also woke him up.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you had this dynamic playing out, and so um Easter Sunday of 2012, we like to say he had his own personal resurrection because it was his turnaround day.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was a day that it just kind of all kind of hit and he went, I've made a mess and I have to, I have to make a U-turn.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um, that began the the start of healing for us.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it took about 18 months for us to completely get the wheels back on the bus.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he didn't move home for another three months, um, but he slowly rebuilt my trust.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: And there were ways I'd broken his trust with my strength and my criticism.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I also rebuilt some trust with him.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually we learned how to talk differently, we learned how to have conflict differently, we learned how to listen to each other differently, we learned how to repair hurts.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and that's what makes up our 2.0 marriage.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's a lot.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I know there are some people that just see it as a deal breaker, um, that infidelity, uh, you know, just once a cheater, always a cheater, or just this idea that it's gonna happen and and the marriage is over.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my uh mom had always said, and this stuck with me that just, you know, people you if you want your marriage, you're gonna have, you know, there's gonna be times that you have to go through hard times.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I could see that if you felt that it's worth it, how does someone know if their marriage is worth saving?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you went specifically into yours and what those reasons were for you, but how does someone else know that it's just the marriage just is worth fighting for?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, sometimes if you can see the brokenness in your partner and you you recognize, like I would say that in in that dark season, Mark was saying he the marriage was a scapegoat for his personal problems.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was really what was happening to some degree.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: There were some unhealthy dynamics in the marriage.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things I say is I did not cause Mark's affair, but I contributed to the dysfunction in our marriage.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so there were some dysfunctional pieces.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say sometimes it can be when you know that that person um is hurting and it's really not about the marriage.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you can you can wait that out.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: And in essence, that's what I did.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, you know what's interesting?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a lawyer when my husband separated.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a lawyer because I really wanted to protect myself.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted to protect my kids.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: He was making very foolish decisions with money and all kinds of things.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and this lawyer, you know, I mean, she she talked me through some of the things that could happen, but she said, I'll be honest with you, if I were you, I'd wait it out.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: She said, You wouldn't believe how many of these things turn around.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, really?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: And she didn't have any faith element in that at all.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, faith was playing out for me, but not for her.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: She was like, that's what it was gonna fizzle.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: It was gonna fizzle and he was gonna come to this realization as many men probably do, or many men women, exactly, exactly.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you you mentioned before the tingles.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to go back to that because I I believe that that is healthy in a marriage to be attracted to other people.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I don't want to speak for everyone, but in our marriage, I mean, we don't act on it, but it's just, you know, we're not afraid to tell each other, oh, um, you know, I he likes this actress or I think this actor's cute, or we talk I I don't know.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that that's healthy because otherwise we're just really pretending or repressing that that's vulnerability too.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you both feel secure enough in the relationship.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: That you can have conversations like that.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Mark and I'll have that.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, he'll say, that guy's, do you think that guy was a handsome guy?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, he's not baiting me.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, he's curious.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, really, that wasn't, he wasn't for me, you know?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or it didn't attract me.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: But we are I mean, we're human beings, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think sometimes it's um, you know, to I'll talk with with with some other women and you know, some don't share that at all with their spouses.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I don't want to judge the other marriages, but I just feel like for us, it we wouldn't be authentic to each other.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess maybe we found each other and we both, you know, we both appreciate that we can share that with each other.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there isn't a jealousy.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um, I think it's more I'm I like that he finds other women attractive.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's interesting.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you well, and I think the word security is the key word there.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think that if people struggle feeling secure in their relationship, in other, and you know, and some of us are not secure.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so that might not work in a marriage where that's not there.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: But obviously, you feel very secure in your relationship with him.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: He feels secure in your relationship with his relationship with you, and and so you guys are able to have those.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I always hate to say very I always hate to say Steve would never.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just because you never know, but and you always know.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would have probably said that will never we would be the least like that's interesting, right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I would sort of try to steer away from that, but let's talk a little bit about um because I'm curious about the just this idea of the betrayal and how that hits you and how you are able to move on and and the external factors.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: What did people around you say?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And did that influence how that's a great question.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm gonna tell you, most people around me said, cut and run.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, cut and run.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Be, you know, you need to be done, you need to take care of yourself, you need to, yep.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: They most people did.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was somewhat alone.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: I had some friends that really supported my um choice to stand for my marriage, to believe for my marriage.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and here's what I I do, my husband and I actually have an online course.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's called The Wait is Not Wasted.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it is for people who have a spouse that's checked out, but they don't believe their marriage is over, they want to stand for their marriage.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so um one of the things that we talk about in that is that when um when you're waiting, well, let me back up when something like that happens, it's a really crappy situation.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the best use of crap is fertilizer, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're gonna use that crappy situation as fertilizer for growth in our life.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would say that when I look back at that dark year, I grew exponentially.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: I grew exponentially, and I I mean, I got myself into counseling, I um really I grew in my faith, I grew in my emotional intelligence.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I looked at things that I needed to look at.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and honestly, my heart was, I don't know if my marriage is gonna make it or not.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I know that I can use this season for growth.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if my marriage doesn't make it, then I'm gonna come out a 2.0 person.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: You took on a lot of accountability for that, for what happened.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um that was important to me for my part.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't take on what was his part, but I had to, I had to look at, yeah, I had a pretty critical spirit.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: I was, you know, often had um high expectations that I would communicate and um disappointments that, you know, were uh maybe out of balance, I guess I would.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so the way I'm seeing it, and I don't want to, I don't mean to m minimize or um or make this um you know, distill this into something that just feels like too simple, but it seems like you're sort of taking out the infidelity aspect and sort of looking at just where your marriage went wrong and sort of separating those two things.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I would say that dealt with part of healing, period.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: I do think that's an important part of healing.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Whether the marriage makes it or doesn't make it, it's an important part of healing.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because and that's where some couples can't heal.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because um, and it is easy when somebody is unfaithful, it's easy to go, you're the problem.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or you're obviously the big problem, right?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so um not minimizing that, yes, but we have to be willing to actually look at it and say, yeah, but what did I bring into the picture?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, where have I been off center?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and what can I look at?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because the other part of um uh a marriage that can be restored is most people don't want to go back to what they had.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: They want something new.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: And they want that marriage 2.0.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's why we call our weekend intensives marriage 2.0 intensives, because we're helping couples to move.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: We identify what was the 1.0 dynamics, and then we identify, all right, what are the 2.0, where do you want to be?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: What do you want to be different?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: All right, then let's let's let's get out of there.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I watched some of your Instagram videos, and you've got these 1.0 scenarios where you and Mark act this out.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Those have 2.0.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're based on, look, uh, you know, I used to be in marketing communications, they're based on real insights of the marriage, right?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those I really resonated with me, especially the ones where Mark comes in and says, Hey, do you want to go on this trip or go somewhere?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: I recently went to South Dakota with my husband on a weekend.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And over our 25 years, he's asked me many times to go there to see the um Mount Um Rushmore.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I've always been like, no.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I finally said, Yes.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a great time.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: So your husband was making what we call bids for connection, and you were missing it and going, no, I don't want to go to Mount Rushmore.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to go to Aspen, not Mount Rushmore.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: But you were missing that the heart of the question, most of the time, probably wasn't about Mount Rushmore.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh hey, I did that so many times.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: I missed those.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like my Mark used to ask me all the time, you want to go golfing with me?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: You want to go golfing?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: You want to do this, do that?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, no, I don't want to do that.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: But he wasn't really asking about golf.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: He was asking to connect.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And boy, when you can really wrap your head around that and learn about that and start responding to the the bid for connection, that makes such a difference.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I I guess the flip of that is something you talk about in the book, which is the slow fade.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Slow fades.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the places the the best definition of a slow fade is connection erosion.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's like our our connection will erode, but it's ever so slowly.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like one little quarter inch at a time, one little quarter inch at a time.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't really recognize it, but hey, that quarter inch adds to another quarter, adds to another quarter, and over time, then our hearts start to get pulled apart.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we can identify some of those ways that the slow fades cause us to disconnect, um, then we can be aware of them and start to turn those around.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh many of us, I want to talk.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: You have another book called Empty Nest Um Full Life.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to talk a little bit about marriage in this marriage 2.0 or marriage in this sort of chapter.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So many of us, including me, have recently dropped their youngest off at college, are or soon to be, and are finding ourselves looking into each other deep into each other's eyes.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a silence, right?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like who are you?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who are you?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Where what's happening?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Where are we going next?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and how, you know, and how much of our marriage realizing was really revolving around our kids.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Our kids, right?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: They buffer.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like they are the buffer.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I would say that about 60% of the couples we work with that come to our intensives or that we work with through coaching are in the emptiness season of life because they are recognizing uh that wait a minute, you know, our kids have been the connecting point.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: We don't even know how to connect.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, first let's normalize that.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like life with kids is busy, right?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Their activities, I mean, you know, you're just, I mean, I think it plays out not only in marriage, but also in uh friendship.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like I say that, you know, the friends that we had um when our kids were growing up oftentimes are bleacher butt friends.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're sitting on the bleachers watching, you know, some sports, or we're sitting, you know, we're always sitting next to each other during the school musicals or whatever.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and then the kids leave and we realize, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe, maybe we didn't have a a real friendship, or maybe we have to do a little bit more work to make this go beyond the kids.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's the same thing in marriage.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, we've both showed up on and sat on the bleachers together.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: We've done the things, we've worked through the logistics of, okay, you're picking up this kid, I'm getting this one here.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and so we learned how to do that well, but in the midst of that, we lose the emotional connection in marriage.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: We we aren't nurturing the friendship.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that can be that can be reignited.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: How and and so well, we start, we start in little ways.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: We start in little ways.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we start with um, you know, uh recognizing that maybe we'll we need to greet each other with a hug when we get home from work.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um we start preparing dinner together, uh, both of us in the kitchen.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so we start to change up.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe, you know, mom was the one that was always making the meals, um, but it was because kids got to be this place, they gotta be that place.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Now, uh, hey, let's do this together.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that might be one, you know, you have to find what works for you, but uh, you know, you find a way to uh maybe every Tuesday night you go out for dinner.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Friday night, you go out with friends.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: You start to do things that the two of you enjoy.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to sometimes find those hobbies or those activities because what worked 25 years ago might not work anymore, right?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so you gotta find, like my husband and I recently went axe throwing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was like I'd heard about it.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, let's do it, you know?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it was fun.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like we, it was like, let's try this.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: I love to walk.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: My husband hates to walk.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm always like, would you, you know, would you go for a walk with me?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: You want to go for a walk?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going for a walk.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: You want to come with me?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: But what we discovered is he actually doesn't mind walking if we walk somewhere interesting.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: If we go to a new neighborhood, like take the car, park the car, walk through a new neighborhood.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: He he likes that.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk about the color of the houses and the color of the front door, and oh, look at that landscaping.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that's interesting.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: We discovered walks during COVID.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was one of the bright spots of that.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we have taken that.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we we don't decide on a um, you know, we don't decide on the subject we're gonna talk about, but we use our walks a lot of times to sort of really dig into an issue that maybe one of the girls are having or, you know, problem solve or discuss some things.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we've really found that that is so helpful too.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: I would say any conversations that are side by side are going to be better than face to face, especially if you're feeling disconnected.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: So uh conversations uh in the car, conversations as you walk.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes those are, and I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about conflict, but I'm just talking about sharing and talking and starting to make connection again.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: So this time is about discover rediscovery, rediscovering our friends, rediscovering our marriage, rediscovering, you know, ourselves as ourselves, right?
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: As not just a mom, although I've never been just a mom, but I I joked that my memoir should be a woman called mom, because that's really what I think, right?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what about if you and your partner are not exactly on the same page about what this chapter is supposed to be?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that that's gonna take some time.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you need a little help.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: You need help um hearing each other.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's where finding a good counselor or finding a marriage coach, like Mark and I do, um, you know, has the ability to um uh just kind of close some of those gaps.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and sometimes we we have these habits that we don't even realize.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh bad communication habits.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: We interrupt each other.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: We hear things through the lens of shame and defensiveness.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh that's a great place to do one of those new internships and to recognize, ah, I think that I think we can do this better.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: We can do this.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: We just we've gotten into some bad habits and uh we've uh let life revolve around the kids.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so we're gonna start making slight shifts.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we were just working with a couple last night, and um, she is a CEO of an organization, he's a fireman, um he works, you know, like uh a 48-hour shift.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: They're feeling like they're just right.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so um we just talked through little steps, tiny steps that they can take to begin to change the dynamics so they're not two ships passing in the night, but they're actually making tiny bits of connection.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing big.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we don't they don't have to go on some big trip, they don't have to, but tiny little ones.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're gonna check in with them in a couple weeks and we're gonna talk about what worked, what didn't work.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's see.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Let can we build on what worked?
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: Why, why did that work?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so sometimes you need people to just help you think outside of your limited perspective.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we need help people that help us to think about strategies that aren't on our radar screen.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you've, again, I mean, as you're the expert in this, but the word connection is really just the absolute key.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's sort of staying connected in a way.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: How big a role does the physical intimacy play in it?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I think I can answer that.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty important.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty important.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: But even as we, I mean, as we age, it changes.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: It does change.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: And that is one.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: I have a book on that too, by the way.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: What is that one called?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Is there really sex after kids?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so um that uh so what is important to understand is yes, especially as you enter into the empty nest, you're also probably entering into menopause.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: And menopause changes things.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: A minute.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: A minute.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: All right, yeah, yep.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it changes things, it changes things emotionally, it changes things physically.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes we need to explore, you know, like hormone replacement therapy.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it has been a I can't do hormone replacement therapy.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: I am a breast cancer survivor, but many people can.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and it's a game changer.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so um, you know, also sometimes we have to think about sex uh differently.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, sometimes uh it becomes painful for women in menopause.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have to think about what how can we still be sexually active, but how can we adapt in the places that are hard?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes as men get older, they struggle with ED.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: So all of those things are gonna play out, and it becomes easy to say, just forget it.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Just forget.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna throw in the towel and forget it.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: And um, it is worth fighting for.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I would say.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's worth fighting.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: And again, please, you know, it this is this is what we do.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: We talk very openly to people.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: So often people are like, you guys talk so openly.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like this was the safe place to talk about these struggles.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, find a safe place that you can talk with somebody and and sort through it.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Whether that's you on your own.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I coach women alone on, you know, maybe they're struggling with desire, you know.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, maybe they're struggling because they're it's it feels like their partner has no desire and they have the desire.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes individual coaching can work, but definitely couples coaching and counseling can make a big difference.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do a little suffer in silence.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no one should.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: I hope people find find, you know, either friends or find another outlet or an expert to to talk with.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, just knowing that there's just change is the only constant, and your marriage is part of that too.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to sort of um remember that.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do a quick speed round.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have some some marriage truths and thought that I we could go through them.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: Separate bread bedrooms, healthy or concerning?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it works for some people as long as you have visiting privileges.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: We don't want separate bedrooms to separate us.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, maybe if somebody snores, you know, maybe you're sleeping better, but then hey, we we can meet up.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: So as long as we're still making connection.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Going to bed angry, okay or never.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sometimes it's best for us to go to bed and get a good night's sleep, and we're gonna actually have a better conversation in the morning.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but sometimes it's helpful if you resolve some of that anger inside yourself.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: That can happen with forgiveness and grace and and and just maybe some perspective.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but sometimes let's just go to bed.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna solve anything.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Keeping some secrets.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: It is best to not keep secrets in marriage in general, um, because that is that is going to put up walls.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would say ask yourself, why do I feel like I can't share this?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and then tackle the root reason why rather than perpetuating.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's different than a confidence that a friend has told you that you wouldn't share.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously that would be different.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh date nights, overrated or essential?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: Essential, but I think that we have to think of them differently.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be dinner in a movie.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: It, you know, it can be a long hike.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: It can be a hike.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: It can be um, it can be that you bring home um, you know, you bring home Chinese and and you you watch a movie together at home.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or we just did that.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: So Yeah, okay.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just not overcomplicate it.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Separate vacations.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is something I I've talked to a lot of couples recently that are sort of exploring this.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um, like I just came back from a week in the Rocky Mountains with three girlfriends.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um, we take that trip once every five years.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: We all went to high school together.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we stay connected throughout the years, but we take a trip every five years.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Mark has a friend that he goes on a fishing trip with.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's healthy to have those kinds of relationships as long as you're in an environment that supports your marriage.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: If if that is a group of people that isn't supportive of your marriage, then that's different.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is emotional cheating as damaging as physical cheating?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it is because you're giving a part of your heart away and emotional connection um is uh what should be happening in your marriage.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: And uh should you stay together for the kids?
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean um you should stay.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: So what I would say is there is value in that.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: I will say there is incredible value in that.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Most of us underestimate how that will affect.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I will tell you, as the ones that are picking up the pieces from a parent's divorce, you know, when we'll work with a couple that's in their 70s and the pain will be there from their parents.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: So um I do think that it's don't stay together for the kids.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: Stay together because the answer isn't another relationship.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: The answer is figuring out this one.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what's one small thing that we could all do, not to save our marriage, but to just strengthen our marriage right now?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, pay attention to the little things.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: Pay attention to the things that um maybe, you know, you take for granted.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um the, you know, something that your partner does on a regular basis.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if they died tomorrow, you'd go, Oh my gosh, I I didn't even notice that they did that.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: And say thank you.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Mark and I try to outthank each other.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's new.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's marriage 2.0 for us.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: We took a lot for granted before.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so now it's like paying attention.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I noticed that you did that.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I would just increase awareness and gratitude.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm grateful for you.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jill.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: Just savage for coming.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.