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Unlocking Leadership Potential with Dr. Lisa Colledge · Business for Humans

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I'm Jamie Gennaro, business coach, consultant, and founder of Practica Consulting.
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In today's episode, I have a candid conversation with Dr.
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Lisa Kolej, expert in cognitive diversity and inclusive leadership.
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We talk about the challenges of leadership development, why some leaders resist
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growth, how team dynamics impact success, and a sneaky way to create change from within. Enjoy.
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So, today, Lisa and I are kind of having an open discussion.
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We're trying to keep it pretty casual.
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This is going to go on both of our podcasts, so neither one of us is leading
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or asking questions. We're just going to, like, roll with it.
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I'm super happy to do this with you. Yeah, I'm also really, really curious to
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see where this is going to go.
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I know full well that the discussions that we've had in the past always come
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up with really, really interesting ideas and conclusions. Let's see where this takes us.
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So the conundrum I'm up against is that I want to work with leaders.
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You and I want to work with leaders.
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I end up working with employees who are struggling with their leadership team.
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Right and so they come to me like for executive coaching and
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they're like here are the roadblocks i'm up against and then
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recently i went to one of my clients and i was like well now
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i'm coaching you now i'm coaching one of your colleagues how do we get in front
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of your leadership team because it seems like they need some coaching too and
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they need some leadership development and they need some of the work that you
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do lisa and and my my client was like oh they'll never go for that,
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They are 0% interested in strengthening their leadership skills.
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They're really just focused on profits and getting to the profit in the quickest
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way possible. And they're not worried about team development.
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So I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. Because, of course,
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her perspective was, these are a bunch of old white guys.
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They're not trying to move the needle or make impact with people.
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And so this, to me, feels like this roadblock.
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To working with leaders. Yeah. I mean, in all honesty, the people who are engaging
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more with the messages that I'm putting out are women.
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So I think that what seems to me like a no-brainer approach,
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much more forward-looking approach than just focusing on profit.
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The approach of investing in your team and making sure that your team is doing
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good stuff and that they can actually work together and not against each other
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and reinforce each other. That's something which seems to make sense to women.
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And maybe it's a competitive advantage for women's leadership.
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And for whatever reason, it seems not interesting or not intuitive or not a
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worthwhile investment for other guys.
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I mean, generalizing, I hate to generalize so much, but in broad strokes,
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I think that that is true.
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I still don't understand why the men in general
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don't seem interested because it's it's it's
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one investment that you make in your people and from
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my perspective it's it's not upscaling the individual
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but connecting them more effectively together so
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it's one investment that you make in your people that amplifies
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whatever method it is that
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you're interested in like whether you're interested in being more innovative or whether
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you're interested in having a better retention right and
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not spending so long and getting new talent in and onboarding them or whether
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you're interested in productivity or the quality of your products or
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having fewer bugs or it doesn't really matter what it is all
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of the metrics go up because your people are able to
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perform better it's just difficult for me to understand why
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there seems to be this i don't know if it's resistance but this gap anyway in
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in male leaders who are looking at it and there just seem to be more more women
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who are looking at this you know it's like one solution with multiple benefits
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maybe maybe that's okay maybe that just is a competitive.
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Advantage that women can have in terms of their own leadership style.
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Maybe we should focus on the women leaders and not try to fight to get attention from the men.
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I don't know. It's a tricky question.
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I don't feel like I understand properly the reason for the disinterest.
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There's kind of like two things. There's the business needs, right?
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Which we know leadership development and like some of the work that you do and
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looking at teams and how those teams kind of can work better together,
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we know that there's a financial...
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Benefit and result from that work.
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But then there's this other side of like, I feel like maybe it's ego and I don't
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think it's siloed to men, but I think there's this leadership ego where to get
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to that level in the old way.
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Because I think now if you're developing your leadership skills,
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hopefully you are developing like more of this kind of emotional,
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intelligent side of leadership because we know it works.
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But I think there's this ego where certain leaders are like,
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oh, I don't need help or I do this better than my team or I don't want to listen to them.
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Management is about listening to people whine, right?
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And I think there's kind of this, I think it's still like an old way of thinking,
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this like old mindset of what leadership is.
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It's like this hierarchical, I'm going to tell you what to do.
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This is the plan I've created. You need to just listen and
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follow directions which of course you know that's not
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gonna work for i know and it's it's awful working
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in those conditions i know that too unfortunately it's
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just horrible when people tell you what to do so what you know if
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you know if you know what i have to do then you don't need me with all my
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qualifications and experience right you can you can get
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three me's for the same money and
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just tell them what to do and they'll just do it mindlessly if you
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if you know all the answers I mean you know
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some some people in some roles may may need to work like that especially when
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they're starting off but but um speak from my own perspective in in the roles
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that I've been in later in my career when I when I do have all of this experience
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to to offer which is different from my manager's experience and you'd hope.
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That they'd see that as a strength. I feel very insulted and frustrated and
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bored when they're telling me what to do.
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It's fine if my way doesn't work and I don't deliver what you're asking me to deliver. Fine.
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I put out my hand and I take accountability for that, but just back off,
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dude, and let me be responsible for delivering what you're asking in the way that I think is best.
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Maybe my way has some benefits over your way, or maybe you can learn from me.
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And maybe I can learn from you too, of course. And then it goes both ways, but yeah.
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This is just such a big struggle I come up against in my work.
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And then, you know, I really want to help support leaders' growth,
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but they have to be willing and desire that, right?
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Like they have to want to change.
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And I think the problem is the leaders who are the ones who are the most toxic
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and the ones who create these environments where people leave,
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the problem is they're not the ones,
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reaching out or seeking support i think
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that they know all the answers and their way is the only way and this
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is how it has to be done and not any other way and i you know a few years ago
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i realized that when i talk about this you always talk about leaders telling
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you how it's how to do things when they tell you the how the method the tasks
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that you have to do to achieve something that's when it gets really annoying
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for me if i just tell you what what you need to do like this is a goal
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like you know go and do it tell me if you need some support go and work with
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some other people if you need some support, whatever it is,
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and then leave you, they tell you what, and they leave you to work out the how.
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That works really well. So I do find myself talking quite often now about the
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difference between, you know, what needs to be achieved and how you achieve it.
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Yeah. Yeah, I think that those leaders who create those awful cultures,
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they do tend to be quite obsessive about the how.
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And actually, it's ridiculous because that, I mean, that's a behavior that you
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would expect to see in new managers, right, who have really recently done the
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job. And it's difficult to detach yourself from thinking about how to do it
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and lead and leave other people to do it.
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And it's almost when people get more senior, they kind of revert to that early
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manager behavior in kind of clinging on to control by telling people how to
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do things instead of just saying what they want and letting people get on with it. Yeah.
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And I think there's so much insecurity there, too. I think that's the other
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thing that's hard for them to ask for help is because when their team is out,
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let's call it outperforming them or they're having success, unless that leader can take credit for it.
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It makes them feel bad about themselves rather than look at like celebrating it.
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Look at what we've been able to do or look at what they've been able to do with
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just a little bit of my guidance.
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I'm so proud of all the work that they've been able to do.
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You celebrate that. Instead, I'm seeing a lot of leaders, and it's not recent,
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but I'm seeing it even more now where these leaders are like,
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I need to take credit for that.
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How come no one's giving me any credit? And when those leaders come to me for
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coaching, they're like, how come no one's listening to me?
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How come no one's recognizing my efforts?
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And that's the mantra that they have as a leader instead of, how do I grow my team?
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How do I collaborate with them? How do I make sure that they're growing and
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finding all these opportunities and developing?
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That's never the question. It's how do I get them to listen to me because I
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have the right answer and they're not listening? I think one of the most...
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She was also my manager, but also one of the most inspiring leaders I ever worked with.
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The very first presentation that she gave to the department that I was in there,
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she was really explicit about this.
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And I thought it was just incredible to hear it. So she said,
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I don't know the answers to all your problems.
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I don't know them, but I don't need to know all the answers because you all,
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you all know them, right?
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You all have this expertise and these skill sets and these experience.
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And what she said is you know i i know enough to
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understand what you're talking about but my job is not to
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know the answer my job is to help you put all the pieces together and find
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the answer from all of your expertise and that's my job that's
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what i can do because i have the distance and because i have the experience and
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because i have you know she did a lot of reading
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about different leadership and strategic models or whatever so she
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was really explicit about that difference
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and she didn't even attempt to try to know
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all of the details that everybody
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in the team knew she just said you know my
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job is my job is different my job is helping you to put it together so
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that you can so that you can all work together so
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that you can all be brilliant and she talked a lot about the collective
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genius which is something i've taken over from her i also talk about
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the collective genius but that was you know
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i remember when she said it thinking what are you what are
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such a new such a new thing to hear at the time really
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quite shocking honestly very different from the kind of typical style
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of leadership like like you say which is like me me me i know the answer you
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know a couple of minutes later you think my goodness this is incredible you
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know i don't have to fight for my opinion i don't have to fight for my expertise
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she's just going to listen to me and she's going to help me to put it together
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with other people's expertise that i don't have and like it even better,
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and that's what she did and it was a wonderful place to work really personally
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fulfilling and really successful.
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I think it took a lot of courage for her to do that as well honestly.
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She never said so, but that's my opinion from having worked there a lot. But yeah, it was great.
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I think you're right. I think that's a really good word to use because I think
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it's something that makes it hard when you're that leader that's not following
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the party line, let's say.
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And you're going off on your own trying
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to motivate and get people working together in the most optimal way.
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And you and there are a lot of battles that those
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leaders have to fight on the other side of the table right like
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to advocate for that team or to advocate for that
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way of working because it might be like a slower
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build it might not turn the result tomorrow
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but it's going to turn bigger results over the longer yeah i mean i think you're
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right like it takes a level of courage and i think what i see a lot is when
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people are up against those leaders or board of directors or the C-suite that
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maybe is not on the same page as that leader,
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what I see is a lot of leaning out, especially now, like post-COVID and all
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of that. I just see people going, well, you know what?
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I'm not going to be able to fight this battle. I'm not winning this fight.
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Nobody cares. Nobody cares to shift the way they're working.
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Nobody cares about my team.
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So rather than push, push, push, and fight, fight, fight, I'm going to lean out.
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And it starts feeling like those are the only options i'm either
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gonna fight or i'm gonna lean out or i'm gonna lean so
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far out that i'm gonna quit but i think more often than not
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lately people are just like i don't want to fight anymore
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so i'm just gonna lean out even though i'm so
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tired leader yeah but i think i
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think there is there is a middle way you know if it's so difficult to do
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the fighting i think that that you know and that's what i'm working on
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now there are there are small steps that people can take
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that don't they don't need like permission and
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don't need to be very big and i think don't don't
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need you to announce it in your leadership meetings you can just
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do them into your own team like you know record record onto
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the benchmark that you start from and record what happens you know a
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few months later and then i bet people want to
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listen once you've got a positive story and
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some metrics going up you know let's face everybody just whatever the
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metric is they just wanted to go up when i've been
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in that situation you know not not specifically about not specifically focusing
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on people then but in my career I've had situations where you could have been
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fighting or just doing it's like I'm just gonna do it I'm just gonna I'm just
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gonna kind of go under the radar and just try it and then when you get a positive result then.
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Then people believe that they always supported you in that. Right.
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Yes, that's the other secret where it makes somebody feel like it was their idea.
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I love that. That's kind of the third option I've been looking for because it's,
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you know, when you're in the middle way, the sneaky way.
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Yeah, the sneaky way because when you're coaching people and I don't always
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have direct access to that leadership team, right?
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So I can only coach that sort of mid-tier group.
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And this is the perfect solution for that group.
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It's like metrics and data are what resonate with the people that are managing
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the outcomes and managing the profit margins and all of that.
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And so I love that approach. If you can kind of do your work under the radar,
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but set those metrics, I think it's good for yourself too.
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If you want to be leveling up as a mid-tier manager and you want to be leveling
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up to those higher level leadership roles, those metrics are going to get you
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there, whether you're bringing them to an interview or putting them on your
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LinkedIn profile, right?
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Like knowing what those measurements are for yourself and like tracking against
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those is also your own growth.
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And knowing who they are, I think setting a benchmark is kind of an amazing
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way to say, here was my benchmark and here's where I am now.
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So it's nice to be able to brag about that, just even if it's not making impact
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in your current work environment. I love that. Yeah, yeah.
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It's an interesting way of positioning it. It's nice. I mean,
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it's so miserable to think about, you know, the leaders who see these problems
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and just don't act, don't do anything.
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And when I get it, I know that people are tired and I know that most people are feeling burnt out.
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And there has to be a way to try to take action. Because if it succeeds,
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you also get energy for yourself, right?
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Yes. And it's your responsibility as a leader, right, to,
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I think not to make yourself shine, to kind of go back to the old model that we talked about.
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It's not only to make yourself shine at the cost of your team,
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but everybody together. I think that's your job as a leader is to lift up your
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team when everybody succeeds together.
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It's probably unlikely that you're going to get everybody going together,
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everybody completely buying into these initiatives because they're big.
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And especially for the probably guys in leadership, they don't really get it.
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They want to invest in other stuff.
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So the middle ground sneaky way might be.
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Love it. I seriously like the solution I've been looking for, for like weeks.
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Like, because what I normally do, too, is like, you know, when people are having
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these issues, they are sort of on the brink of burnout.
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Like they've probably been fighting for a while.
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So as you know, because we've worked together in that capacity,
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too, like my first help with them is like recognize your own worth.
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Don't question your instincts.
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Like your instincts are probably right. You've just been hitting your head against
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the wall for a while and we tend to like lose a lot of confidence in those moments.
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So I try to bolster their confidence. Like let's look at places and times when
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you were really successful and what you've been able to do and remember those
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and then do lean out a little bit.
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Because if you're grinding, grinding, grinding and working like 60 hours a week
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and you're not getting anywhere.
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Like just take a give yourself the opportunity to take a breath and take a break
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and come back at it with a little more energy because you deserve it.
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We start there usually, but then when they're ready to get back in,
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it's like, all right, well, I don't want to just keep beating my head against
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the wall, you know, so what can I do?
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And I love this middle way, this middle path, because I think what's really
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beautiful about the person that you worked with was her trust in you. I think trust is huge.
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And confidence. Because if you have trust and confidence from your leader,
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even if you falter or maybe it doesn't go exactly the way you expected,
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that leader still has trust and belief in you.
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It doesn't evaporate. And then they're like, okay, well, let's tweak it and
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let's modify it and let's work together to like ramp it up again.
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It's not like, oh, that was a failure.
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You know, you failed, you made a huge mistake. We all own it.
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But when you have a leader who still trusts you and has that confidence in you,
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you're not afraid to try new things and to risk things.
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Right and you know we we never had a failure i don't
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think we ever labeled anything a failure it was okay stuff didn't go
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as expected yeah or perhaps you know sometimes
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we we took things in a particular direction you know and then this with this
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way and then we decided okay that that way is actually not the best we're gonna
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keep going in that direction because everybody needs a direction but we're gonna
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change the the way we we never called the first way failure it was you know
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it got us further it got us closer towards the direction we wanted to go in so that.
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In that way it was a success okay it wasn't the optimal way
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but we wouldn't know that if we hadn't tried it and learned from it and
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you know spend the time saying what's working what's not working
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can we use this information to find a different way yes we can okay
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let's let's move and and dare to move to that way actually
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not just stick to that old way because you had started it
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and you didn't dare to change that's also part of the trust so yeah
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it was it was an environment where we never called things
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failures because you're always you're always
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trying to get towards a goal so the the yeah stating
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the goal and making sure everybody had a similar understanding
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of what it was was really important so you make sure that you're all going in the
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same direction and then if something didn't work as
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expected well it's still successful because you learned something that
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helps you find something else so yeah i'm just
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thinking aloud now you get the trust is like a
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cycle so she showed trust in the beginning and asking people to do that
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and you kind of go through this didn't happen as i expected but
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you know nobody's saying that i failed and nobody's shouting at me and
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actually we're thinking it's a good thing because now we can do something better and.
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Then it builds more trust and it just kind of builds itself
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it's at some point at some point you don't have to push anymore
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it just happens on its own and it and
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that's where the best ideas come right because if you if
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somebody's told you it's a failure or you did it wrong or they're
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berating you i mean we all know when we
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make mistakes and we already feel bad enough about it right
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it's like parenting I feel like it's always goes back
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to parenting it's like you can berate your kid but it's not
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going to make them change a behavior so
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if you want to keep putting that trust and belief in someone
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they're going to keep bringing their big ideas and their good ideas because
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you're like I still trust you like it went in a different direction but I still
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trust that you're going to bring some great ideas I need you bringing ideas
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right yeah and what I also found was that
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I mean, she was great at building the connections between people.
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That's still my focus, the connections between people. But the more different
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kind of perspectives that you can bring into this, you know,
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idea that somebody's had,
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you don't just keep it like one person's idea that they're running with it,
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but you bring in different perspectives and they're going to shape the idea
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and maybe they're going to chop that bit off and add a bit on or,
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you know, paint that bit purple and orange, I don't know.
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But it strengthens the idea. And...
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Makes it less likely to, you know, fail or go in a different direction.
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It makes it much more likely to take you where you want to go if you take the
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time to get all those different perspectives.
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But that's the skill that I focus on in the team.
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Yeah. And I think like ways of working too, and I think this is something that
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you focus on also is, you know, everybody's got a different way of working.
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And I think the leaders that come in and they say, well, this is my idea and
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it has to go like this, are also the ones that end up not getting to those results
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because everybody looks at the problem with their brain, right?
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With the way that their brain problem solves, which is different for everybody.
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The way that people come to solutions to problems is different.
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And the way that they do math, right?
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Like they might use Excel or they might use a calculator or they might do it by hand, right?
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It's all basically the same math getting to the same answer,
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but the way to get there is different.
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And I think that's what I think the beauty is of the work that you do also,
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because if you try to get people to all do it the same way, you're not letting
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them paint it green or paint it pink, right?
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You're not letting them put their own brush on it. You're just like,
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it has to be like this in this way.
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And I think the beauty of it too is when people are like, well,
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I looked at it from this lens,
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and here's what i can bring and then people are like oh i never
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even thought that if you did it with a calculator you
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could figure out this different thing you know what i mean
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and i love that and i think that's a thing
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too that leaders miss is that you
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know what's the way of working here what's the way you're gonna get to the finish
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line i think which is such an interesting part of the way people collaborate
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yeah no i mean that's what you're describing is it's a really good description
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of why what we offer, what we specialize in, goes so well together.
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When you're talking about the team connections and the different styles reinforcing each other.
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But that doesn't happen on its own because what do we happen if we meet somebody
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who's very different from us and we don't really understand it?
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We tend to resist that naturally.
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So you do need to have a leader who sees the benefit and who is trained to transfer
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their own bravery to their team and build a trust in their team and the skills
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in their team to be able to see those differences as benefits, as assets,
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as something to be curious about and ask questions about.
24:00
But yeah, so the leader is absolutely essential as well for what I'm talking
24:04
about. I focus on connections in the team, but if you don't have the leader
24:07
involved, it's not going to fly for more than a few weeks.
24:13
And as soon as somebody takes their eyes off pushing it actively, it will just drop.
24:18
You really need the leader as well. And I think people think that that role, maybe you don't need it.
24:25
And I think some leaders too are like, oh, I can just get into the weeds of
24:28
the work and just do the work and that's enough. I'm showing up for my team
24:32
and what they forget and one of my clients use this metaphor and I think it's so spot on.
24:37
They're like when you're on a ship and everyone's below deck,
24:41
making the food or doing whatever and no one's up there guiding the ship.
24:46
The ship is going to crash like it's a guarantee and, and people forget it's not about hierarchy.
24:52
It's about vision and setting that
24:55
path and maybe that path is not the
24:58
exact best most efficient way to get
25:01
someplace but someone's at least keeping an eye on
25:04
yeah you're gonna get there you're gonna get there
25:07
i mean you can go straight there or maybe you're gonna go around the corner or
25:10
you're gonna go a bit like that but you're still gonna get that but yeah you're
25:13
right there's gonna be somebody taking you there and a leader's job is not to
25:19
do all of the operational work no his job is to lead and to represent the team
25:24
and what they're doing to the rest of the leadership team and to get rid of
25:28
obstacles and to, you know,
25:29
fight those fights that maybe the team don't see to make sure that they've got
25:32
a clear way to deliver all their good stuff.
25:35
Yeah, it's not doing all of the day-to-day.
25:37
In terms of insecurities too, I think leaders go to both extremes.
25:41
It's like, I have the answer. My way is the only way. I'm going to stand up
25:45
here and I'm going to like, you know, steer us.
25:48
And while the team is like, that's the best way to do it. And they're like, I don't care.
25:53
Close the door. You be quiet. Stay in your lane.
25:56
That's like one style. And then there's this other style where it's like,
25:59
I'm in this with you guys. And like, I don't need to make any decisions.
26:04
It's a full, you know, democratic way, which I mean, if you're going to choose,
26:09
I think that way is maybe like a little bit better for the team.
26:12
But still, you have to like level yourself.
26:14
You still have to be like, I love all those ideas, but I'm seeing the horizon
26:19
and here's where I think we need to go and we can tweak it and you guys can
26:24
give me feedback but let me just take us this way,
26:27
you know, but you're like taking feedback and implementing it.
26:30
You're not ignoring it but you're also like, but I'm still...
26:34
I'm going to use my experience and my knowledge, and I'm going to try to...
26:37
The leader will see, they see different things in their team,
26:40
right? They interact with different people.
26:41
They probably have access to some different reports that everybody doesn't have.
26:44
So, I mean, they've got to bring that in as well, whether they can share it
26:47
openly with their team or not.
26:49
And yeah, I would think democracy is great to an extent.
26:53
You've got to, I think you need to collect evidence and experience and opinion.
26:59
It's responsible, but it also helps people to get on board if they feel they've been listened to.
27:03
Yeah at some point you're just going to make a decision and then
27:05
it's not democracy anymore then you're just going to make a decision and say you
27:08
know look guys you know i i heard you i'm not going to act
27:11
on that feedback for whatever reason i think it works really well to
27:14
just explain it so people understand and they know they've been heard but this
27:17
is a decision and this is where we're going and then and then it's not democracy
27:20
anymore right then it's so yeah yeah and that's the confidence right so there's
27:25
a difference between like the that fake confidence of like i'm insecure about
27:30
making decisions so i'm just going to tell everyone i'm right not listen, right?
27:33
And then there's that insecurity of like, I want the team to know that like
27:36
I'm elevating myself, but I want them to know I'm still a part of the team.
27:40
And then they get insecure about that gap.
27:42
I think that's where people need leaders the most because they're like,
27:46
listen, we're not, we don't have that level of experience. We don't have the information you have.
27:52
We can't be that person. Please be that person. I mean, I think that's what
27:56
I hear from teams all the time is like, I wish they would just step into that role.
28:00
We need it instead of leaders who are insecure that feel like,
28:03
well, the team doesn't want me to lead.
28:05
They want it to be democratic. And it's just not true.
28:09
Teams are looking for someone to lead them.
28:12
You didn't feel in competition with your leader. You felt inspired by her.
28:17
You felt motivated by her. You felt like she was instilling in you what you
28:21
needed to be successful.
28:23
There was no like, oh, I don't like her being the boss or, oh,
28:28
it's this hierarchy, right?
28:29
It's like, no, She's like my mentor.
28:33
She's bringing this information to me so that I can be successful.
28:36
I think everybody felt that way. I was lucky enough to report directly to her,
28:40
but the people who didn't report directly to her, they still interacted with her a lot.
28:44
She made sure of that. And they also felt that way.
28:48
Like leaders treat leaders it's great that
28:51
you're leading us we trust you your job is different than ours yeah it was wonderful
28:54
so we started kind of alluding to this but like some of the ways i think it's
28:58
good for us to even like talk this out the work that we do is the same and the
29:02
way it's different and the way it kind of comes together is this idea of you
29:07
know i work more with individuals.
29:09
So i i mean what i love about the work you do is like we can look at what they need to do as a group.
29:15
And then it's like, okay, how does that leader sort of elevate themselves?
29:18
And then I'll work like one-on-one with the team too, to kind of understand
29:21
what their own personal roadblocks are to getting to that next place.
29:25
But where you're like, let's as a team talk about where these places are,
29:30
where we need to look at the problem with all these collective brains and find
29:35
a way to move forward collectively. Like that feel.
29:39
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I'd say you would
29:42
also be explicit about the the different styles of working
29:45
that people in your team have it's different for every team say you know
29:48
i i prefer to contribute my ideas like by shouting them
29:51
out because i've got 50 ideas and or i prefer to think
29:53
about my my ideas and get some evidence together and you
29:56
know share them a week later in writing i mean just just say it you know it's
29:59
just one example but if people can can be
30:02
explicit about how they can function best with
30:05
their ways of working and then you can work on team
30:08
norms i call them you can actually you know write maybe
30:11
write them down by hand but capture them capture them
30:14
somehow and saying this this is how we're going to run our meetings this
30:17
is how we're going to run our brainstorms this is what we're going to do in presentations and and
30:21
the way this is what we're going to do that is a way where
30:23
you're trying to enable people to work as much as possible in their own style
30:28
and just doing that discussion helps people to understand each other's differences
30:31
and and why people will want to you know send in a written idea a week after
30:37
the brainstorm or why somebody wants to shout out their stuff there and then.
30:42
It helps people to understand that others aren't just being difficult for the
30:46
sake of it, that's just how they work.
30:48
Then accepting it, that's the first step to building good connections.
30:52
And getting that good stuff going. So I also always try to get the team to voice
30:59
that and then to look at what they have collected about how they all prefer
31:02
to work and actively agree a way of working.
31:08
Maybe it doesn't work the first time, fine, but it's not a failure,
31:11
it's a learning. Like we talked about before, it's a learning.
31:13
And then if it doesn't work, fine, then we're going to try something else and
31:16
we'll keep on improving it.
31:17
And if somebody new comes into the team, you might need to adjust it.
31:20
At least be very aware of it and talk about it.
31:24
Maybe every couple of months you're going to revisit it and see if it's still working.
31:27
But yeah, that takes a confident leader, I think, to have those kind of discussions.
31:33
Confident to spend the time on it, to believe that it's worth it.
31:36
Confident to share something about their own way of working,
31:39
what they prefer and what they find difficult, right, so that their team can copy them.
31:43
And they'll definitely be members of the team also that had experiences in their
31:46
past that might make them resist sharing that kind of stuff,
31:50
or they feel uncomfortable sharing that kind of stuff.
31:52
That would be definitely why the individual coaching would come in,
31:57
so that the group can thrive.
32:01
Yes. Yeah, because sometimes you don't want to bring all of those things to
32:05
the team, or you haven't figured out a way to say what you need.
32:10
Or maybe you haven't even identified it.
32:12
Maybe you're like, I don't know, I've been going along this way for so long.
32:15
I don't know what my strengths are nobody's really
32:19
helped pull those things out of me I haven't had that kind
32:22
of guidance before and so I think that's kind of
32:24
the benefit too of the mixture of doing some
32:28
individual executive coaching also is like well let's really hone in on your
32:33
strengths like what where have you seen success like what makes you feel successful
32:38
what else do you need to feel successful and like know that you have this place
32:43
where you can talk about that.
32:45
And I think for leaders and CEOs, too, it's an important place.
32:49
It's an important container to have because you can't, especially if you're
32:53
like you're on your own, if you don't have a board of directors or a C-suite
32:56
to be able to talk through things with, if you're really on your own as a leader.
33:02
You need a thought partner.
33:04
Like you need someone who's kind of also like pointing out the things that you
33:07
need to work on because your team is not going to do that.
33:10
And if you're leaning on your team to bring you feedback as if they're your
33:14
manager, I think that's an unfair place to put your team also. Like, I love feedback.
33:18
I like to tell people to manage up. I think it's a good practice, but not an expectation.
33:23
Like, it shouldn't be an expectation of a leader that your team is going to
33:26
manage you. It's unfair.
33:29
So I think if a leader is open enough... Managing feedback, right?
33:33
Are you talking about feedback, giving feedback to the leaders so that they
33:36
can improve themselves? but not, yeah.
33:39
Of course not manage them yeah no and
33:41
i've been in situations where the where the leader like
33:45
even the ceo at times is like well do you think i
33:48
should do this or should i talk to the person like this and
33:51
they're talking to someone who's maybe like a mid-level manager and
33:54
the mid-level manager is like why is the ceo asking me questions yeah like this
33:59
like how they should talk to one of my colleagues not okay very uncomfortable
34:04
very yeah very strange yeah yeah but it's because they don't have that sounding
34:10
board and that thought partner to say, how should I level up?
34:14
How should I be walking my team through feedback opportunities?
34:18
How should I be motivating them? They need someone outside of their team to
34:23
be asking those questions of.
34:25
And again, like parents, you don't ask your kid, should I discipline you like this?
34:30
Or should I take away your xbox or should i
34:33
do this like you don't i mean again i love
34:36
bringing your kid into the discussion like what do you think is the way we should
34:40
handle this right i love that open discussion but at the end of the day they
34:44
know you're the parent you're not asking them for parenting advice that would
34:48
be really inappropriate parenting advice according to my children Let me watch iPad 24-7.
34:58
Do you think I should let you do that? Yes. Okay. Go ahead.
35:04
You know, but I mean, I think the open discussion and the collaboration is great.
35:09
Then they're on board. They're like, oh, I'm a part of this conversation.
35:12
I'm a part of this discussion.
35:13
But you're still going to take that leadership perspective and that place of
35:18
experience and go, listen, well, from where I stand, here's what I think,
35:22
you know, and here's the why.
35:24
And here's the reason and here's why we're going to go in
35:26
that direction and I love all the feedback you
35:29
can tell me you think I'm a terrible mom as much as you
35:32
want I'm still gonna do what I think
35:35
it's a really good metaphor I might my you know I can have
35:37
those discussions with my daughter now and she I mean sometimes she genuinely contributes
35:41
stuff that I haven't thought of and it makes you see things differently
35:44
sometimes it's completely irrelevant it's nonsense
35:47
but sometimes it really is really spot on and
35:50
I think oh that's you know yeah I didn't know that good
35:53
point yeah and you're still going to make a call but sometimes
35:56
my call is different than it was because you might have shared a
35:59
spot-on observation I just laugh about the irrelevant nonsense that she sometimes
36:03
if we play that metaphor out it's that same idea of if you're taking her seriously
36:10
even if it's irrelevant but you're still taking it and she still feels trusted
36:14
and she still feels like she You believe in her and you believe in her ideas.
36:19
Then she's going to keep bringing them. Yeah. And that's the best case scenario.
36:23
But if you're like condescending, you're like, that idea is stupid.
36:26
No, that's irrelevant. I'm the mom. You should just be quiet.
36:31
She's never going to open her mouth again.
36:33
Well, I don't tell her I think that's irrelevant.
36:37
No, that's what I mean. Then I would say like, you know, I don't understand
36:41
how what you're saying refers to our question, right? Remember the question
36:46
is this because sometimes she forgets.
36:47
I don't understand her. does it relate to the question?
36:50
And I think there's been one example when it actually did, and I just hadn't understood the link.
36:54
So that's also a possibility, right? That you just don't understand the connections
36:58
that other people's brains make, and you can just ask them, and they'll tell
37:02
you, because people love talking about themselves, and sometimes it's just irrelevant.
37:05
But you know, I gave her the chance, but you're right, because I don't immediately
37:09
just say, you know, you're talking nonsense, shut up.
37:12
She does come with these ideas, and I think it grows a confidence and an ability
37:18
to try other things yeah in that perspective it's not it's not very different
37:21
from what i think you want to do as a leader of a team i think you do want to,
37:26
build build your team members right you want to make them better you want.
37:30
Really you want to get them ready to move to a different role i think
37:32
really if you're a very good leader you want your team members to
37:35
be able to leave your team because they're so good they've outgrown
37:38
you and and they can and they can move on it's kind of
37:41
sad when you see some somebody so good go but
37:44
I mean what what a brilliant job that you've done as a
37:46
manager or leader then in that case absolutely absolutely
37:51
and the best case scenario is that you just keep moving
37:54
them up that there's a place for them to go and they feel so encouraged and
38:00
supported through that growth that at some point their loyalty is so strong
38:04
that they they might have other opportunities I mean not that this is the best
38:08
case scenario but they might have opportunities And they might turn them down because they're like,
38:12
where else am I going to find this kind of environment?
38:15
Because it's so rare. Once you develop that kind of environment,
38:18
you start to realize how rare it is and how hard it is to get a company to get to that place.
38:25
It's like it's such a great thing when you get a team really working like a well-oiled machine.
38:31
And I think to your point, which I think is really important for me to remember,
38:35
is that when I've been in those roles, in those mid-tier roles,
38:39
and I started doing things where I was like, here's my metric and here,
38:42
I'm just going to do things sort of on my own and see if I can move the needle.
38:46
The benefit is when you build that team and you get that team moving like this
38:51
well-oiled machine where they're like.
38:53
I just use this example, like where they're finishing projects and they're working
38:57
together as this team and then they get that project across the finish line
39:00
and it's a team celebration.
39:02
Nobody's like, oh, that person did that. It's like, oh my God,
39:06
that was amazing. Let's do it again.
39:09
You know, it's just such a great feeling when you get to do that as a team,
39:13
when you can kind of do that under the radar and then you're like, here it is.
39:18
Like here's the example of what we've been able to do it
39:21
now it's public it's really it's amazing
39:24
and then what i had seen in those types of
39:27
roles too is that my team didn't want to leave even
39:30
though up here i was fighting the good fight and i was feeling like the toxic
39:35
environment up here is not going to work i was able to sort of shelter them
39:39
from that and develop this department that was thriving yeah and i think also
39:45
your job as a leader right sometimes just to provide shelter and take
39:50
take some of the shit that's coming your way yeah
39:53
i mean hopefully you can spread the good
39:56
word right and that's the purpose of the
39:59
role right like that's where you're like well i'm making impact on this group
40:02
maybe i'm not making impact here and i think that's an important thing to remember
40:07
too is that you might be not on board with what's happening at the top of the
40:14
stack But if you feel like you can move the needle or make impact,
40:18
keep leaning in, like keep leaning in because people need people like you,
40:23
you know, people need inspiring managers like you had so they can take that
40:29
through the rest of their career and go, that's the kind of leader I want to be.
40:32
And maybe it is possible to, like, you know, infect another team.
40:36
With the desire to emulate you. I mean, what we're talking about is a framework. It's repeatable.
40:41
It's not like one-off magic that only exists in one team. It can be repeated. So, I mean, yeah.
40:47
Also, as a leader, isn't it great then if you can inspire another leader to
40:50
kind of follow in your footsteps and try to repeat the same magic without spreading?
40:57
Yeah. And that's the thing. I think talking to you is reminding me that, yeah, okay,
41:04
maybe we're not going to be able to affect some of these leaders who are really
41:08
hard and fast in the way that they work. And they're like, my way is the only way.
41:13
Maybe we're not going to move the needle with those people. But if we can move
41:16
the needle with these leaders who are like heading up departments and they can
41:20
kind of like move things in their own way under the radar and then see success,
41:26
who doesn't want to be on a winning team?
41:28
That's what infects people are like, I want to be scoring goals.
41:33
I don't want to be over here constantly losing and feeling bad about myself.
41:38
Even if you're not scoring goals, but the team is like, the camaraderie is there
41:41
and everybody's got great sportsmanship. I love sports metaphors.
41:45
And they're moving along. Everybody's like, I want to be a part of that.
41:49
How do I get to be a part? It's great. It's like you want to go to work and
41:52
it's not like, oh my God, I have to go to work again.
41:56
And these people are going to be complaining and they're not going to pull their
41:59
weight and they're going to tell me my ideas are stupid.
42:02
It's awful. That's awful. I bet everybody's been to work like that.
42:05
But then, yeah, maybe occasionally people have had glimmers of those wonderful
42:09
energizing, like, yeah, I can't wait to get to work because it's so fun.
42:13
I'm going to learn from this person and we're going to keep going with this
42:15
idea and we're going to all help each other.
42:18
Nobody's ever built this stuff before. It's the first time in the world.
42:23
Amazing when you can do that. And I think for us as entrepreneurs,
42:26
I like to always like spin it back around to that lens.
42:30
It's the same for us, right? Like it's not an easy job.
42:36
Like put our, you know, nose to the grindstone and it's a, it's a different
42:41
kind of way of working when you're an entrepreneur.
42:44
But when you can get into a team and develop that team and see that team's success,
42:51
like, and it's a step out, right?
42:53
We're outside of the organization, but we're watching these people grow and
42:58
move in this direction. It is like the most rewarding thing. It's worth it.
43:02
All that, putting your nose to the grind. It makes you keep going. Yeah.
43:06
That's the reason, right? Like to see these leaders elevate.
43:10
I get so much satisfaction from that, like knowing, okay, I've worked with this
43:14
person maybe for six months or for a year.
43:16
And And then I see the level of conversations they're having,
43:20
the things they're able to do with their team, just the satisfaction they have at work.
43:24
It's just, there's nothing better. Wow. Amazing.
43:29
You've been listening to Business for Humans. If you'd like to learn more about
43:33
the work Lisa and I do to help organizations and leaders thrive,
43:37
you'll find links to read more about us in the show notes.
43:40
You can always schedule a consult call to talk to us about the issues your organization
43:44
is facing by finding a time on our calendar at practica.consulting slash contact.
43:53
Thanks for listening.
43:55
Music.