Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #41 Ignoring Children

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#41 Ignoring Children · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: This is the Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coilson,
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  Speaker 1: where Luke and Susie and this is the podcast for
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  Speaker 1: the time poor parent who just wants answers now.
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  Speaker 2: And sus this is great. This is your question. You
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  Speaker 2: want to try and get permission from our parenting expert
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  Speaker 2: to find out when is it okay to ignore our kids?
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  Speaker 2: You're done, You've had enough, and you want approval for.
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  Speaker 1: This to give you What was going through my head
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  Speaker 1: about this? Doctor Justin Coilson's in the studio with us,
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  Speaker 1: and we've been talking with Justin for a long time now,
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  Speaker 1: and I've learnt I think a little bit about the
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  Speaker 1: style of parenting that he promotes, and it's quite a
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  Speaker 1: shepherding approach. It's a guiding and leading approach with our children.
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  Speaker 1: And when I thought about this in the context of
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  Speaker 1: ignoring children's behavior, I suddenly thought, I wonder if that's
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  Speaker 1: something that you would approve of in certain context, because
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  Speaker 1: that is that really teaching our children what is not okay.
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  Speaker 2: So, because we tend to have a switch full on,
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  Speaker 2: switch full off theories of parenting, what do you think, Justin,
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  Speaker 2: is it ever okay? When is the time to ignore kids?
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  Speaker 2: Poor behavior.
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  Speaker 3: That's a really good question I put you in.
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  Speaker 1: I guess the question really is is there ever a
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  Speaker 1: time where it's appropriate to ignore you? Because we hear
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  Speaker 1: it a lot, I just ignore them, just ignore them,
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  Speaker 1: But is that actually guiding and teaching our children through
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  Speaker 1: whatever they're doing.
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  Speaker 4: You know, the place where people usually will say you
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  Speaker 4: should ignore your child's behavior is during like a toddler tantrum.
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  Speaker 4: You know, the child's going absolutely bananas, You need to
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  Speaker 4: ignore them.
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  Speaker 3: I have a different way of approaching things.
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  Speaker 4: If a child's going bananas, it's because they've got some
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  Speaker 4: sort of an unmet need. It might be because they
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  Speaker 4: want something that they can't have. You know, I want
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  Speaker 4: to play with the iPad. Well, no, it's not screen time.
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  Speaker 4: I want to go outside and plan on the swings.
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  Speaker 4: I know, but it's raining and it's four degrees or
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  Speaker 4: you know, they had these big tantrums and some people say, well,
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  Speaker 4: you just ignore it and it'll go away. When I
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  Speaker 4: was a kid, when I was a toddler, I used
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  Speaker 4: to hold my breath and my mum was told by
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  Speaker 4: the pediatrician that she needed.
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  Speaker 3: To ignore it.
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  Speaker 4: And she said, if I ignore it, he'll pass out
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  Speaker 4: and the pediatrician said that's right, and so Mum ignored it,
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  Speaker 4: and I passed out.
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  Speaker 3: And it happened a couple of times.
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  Speaker 4: I would actually hold my breath until I passed out,
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  Speaker 4: but eventually apparently I stopped doing that.
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  Speaker 3: I'm here today to tell the story. I've been affected.
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  Speaker 1: I was thinking what happened in the edge, look.
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  Speaker 3: At the way my brain works.
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  Speaker 4: So I don't necessarily think that ignoring it is a
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  Speaker 4: good idea unless you want your children to pass out,
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  Speaker 4: or unless you want them to I mean, you think
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  Speaker 4: about it. When you ignore your kids, does that improve
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  Speaker 4: their behavior? If the kids are fighting with each other,
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  Speaker 4: does ignoring them make them something go I'm not getting
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  Speaker 4: intention from my parents. I think that I'll start behaving now.
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  Speaker 4: They usually actually make things worse. If you ignore a
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  Speaker 4: toddler tantrum, that toddler continues to tantrum. What we need
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  Speaker 4: to do instead is understand what's going on with our children.
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  Speaker 4: I recommend time in rather than time out. If a
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  Speaker 4: child's having a hard time, it's because they don't know
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  Speaker 4: how to deal.
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  Speaker 3: With the emotions that they're feeling.
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  Speaker 4: They don't know how to behave appropriately in the situation,
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  Speaker 4: and they don't need to be left alone at that point. Now,
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  Speaker 4: sometimes you might have a child who is losing the
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  Speaker 4: plot and is non responsive. So a case in point
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  Speaker 4: one of my daughters at the dinner table one night
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  Speaker 4: a few years ago. Young child didn't want dinner, started
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  Speaker 4: to have a great big dummy spit, you know, throwing
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  Speaker 4: the knife and the fork on the floor. Tried to
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  Speaker 4: get the bowl and throw that on the floor as well.
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  Speaker 4: Rescued the bowl just before the whatever it was when
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  Speaker 4: all over the tiles. But there's this moment where I
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  Speaker 4: recognize that this behavior is not okay, and if I
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  Speaker 4: ignore it, it's only going to get worse. So I picked
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  Speaker 4: her up and I tried to give her a hug.
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  Speaker 4: And you know what todd was like when you try
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  Speaker 4: to give them hug. Oh yeah, she was fighting. She
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  Speaker 4: was trying to punch me in the head and all
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  Speaker 4: sorts of things. Pretty funny actually, because no matter how
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  Speaker 4: hard they punch you when they're toddlers, that it doesn't
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  Speaker 4: hurt hit me again, that's the only time that you'd
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  Speaker 4: ever say that, you know. But I took her out
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  Speaker 4: of the room and I tried to hug her, and
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  Speaker 4: I tried to have some time in with her.
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  Speaker 3: She didn't want that.
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  Speaker 4: So at that point you might say, well, just ignore
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  Speaker 4: her and let her calm down. Again, I don't think
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  Speaker 4: ignoring is exactly the right thing, so because ignoring feels
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  Speaker 4: like a punishment. Ignoring feels like you're doing something to
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  Speaker 4: that child to make them pay a price for their
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  Speaker 4: bad behavior. And I don't like making kids suffer, at
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  Speaker 4: least not in a punishment kind of way. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: if they well, So I said to her, I can
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  Speaker 4: stay with you because you're having a hard time, or
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  Speaker 4: I can leave if you'd rather be on your own.
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  Speaker 3: So there's a there's a degree of choice here for
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  Speaker 3: this two or three year old.
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  Speaker 1: And she's not ignoring.
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  Speaker 3: That's acknowledging exactly. And so she screamed at me. She
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  Speaker 3: said something like.
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  Speaker 1: Articulately.
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  Speaker 4: She told me to go away, out because what she
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  Speaker 4: was saying. And I said, I get the feeling that
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  Speaker 4: you're telling me to go away. I can go away
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  Speaker 4: if you want, but I'd really like to give you
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  Speaker 4: a cuddle. And she screamed at me again. I said, okay,
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  Speaker 4: you don't want me near you, so I'm just going
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  Speaker 4: to wait over here by the door.
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  Speaker 3: And so I walked over the door, and she screamed
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  Speaker 3: at me again.
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  Speaker 4: I said, based on what you're saying to me, I
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  Speaker 4: feel like you'd rather me just leave you alone. So
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  Speaker 4: as soon as you're ready for a cuddle, and as
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  Speaker 4: soon as you're ready to sit with us quietly and peacefully,
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  Speaker 4: I'd love for you to come and let me know.
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  Speaker 4: So at no point am I ignoring her. At no
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  Speaker 4: point am I giving her a time out. I'm letting
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  Speaker 4: her know that I get how she feels. She's upset,
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  Speaker 4: she's feeling horrible. Give us some space, but she's welcomed
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  Speaker 4: back as soon as she's willing to play by the rules.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I stepped out of the room.
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  Speaker 4: And as I stepped out, I turned around one more
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  Speaker 4: time and I said, just before I go, you're sure
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  Speaker 4: you don't want to cuddle. And at that point she
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  Speaker 4: ran to me with arms open and she wanted a
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  Speaker 4: big hug. And I said, would you like to come
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  Speaker 4: and join us for dinner now?
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  Speaker 3: And she said yes, and we sat down and we
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  Speaker 3: had a peaceful dinner. Now you can do that sort
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  Speaker 3: of thing.
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  Speaker 4: There's been a couple of times where I've said, would
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  Speaker 4: you like a cudle now and they've screamed at me again.
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  Speaker 3: So I've walked out of the room.
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  Speaker 4: Waited outside the room for thirty seconds, and then opened
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  Speaker 4: the door and said, I just thought I'd come back
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  Speaker 4: one more time and see if you want a hug,
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  Speaker 4: and they usually come to me. Then they just need
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  Speaker 4: that little bit of space, but not as a punishment,
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  Speaker 4: just as a bit of space. And it doesn't matter
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  Speaker 4: whether the child is two or twenty two or anywhere
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  Speaker 4: in between. Ignoring them just makes them feel invalidated, makes
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  Speaker 4: them feel unworthy, makes them feel like they don't matter,
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  Speaker 4: and their opinions and their worldview is irrelevant.
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  Speaker 2: So often the logic though, is if their behavior, if
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  Speaker 2: their tantrum is deemed to be just attention seeking, then
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  Speaker 2: that's when we should ignore them, which which both which
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  Speaker 2: makes sense.
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  Speaker 4: Well, if they want attention, give them attention.
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  Speaker 2: It's quite the interesting because I can understand negative attention
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  Speaker 2: like negative behavior. So this is the theory. If they
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  Speaker 2: negative behavior, then you get my attention. I'm reinforcing doing
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  Speaker 2: negative behavior. It's getting the attention when there's good behavior.
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  Speaker 4: So this comes out of the nineteen sixties nineteen seventies.
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  Speaker 3: A psychologist called B. F. Skinner.
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  Speaker 4: He used to do experiments with pigeons and with rats,
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  Speaker 4: and he would offer reinforcement or punishment to get them
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  Speaker 4: to behave in certain ways. And the argument of psychologists was,
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  Speaker 4: if you respond positively to negative behavior, you're going to
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  Speaker 4: reinforce negative behavior. Now I can tell you that the
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  Speaker 4: research does not that the current research does not necessarily
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  Speaker 4: support that view. How do I say okay?
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  Speaker 3: Form follows feelings.
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  Speaker 4: Our children's behavior is a direct response to the feelings
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  Speaker 4: that are inside them. So when we respond to a
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  Speaker 4: child's challenging behavior, we're not reinforcing the behavior. We're responding
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  Speaker 4: to the feelings that underpin the behavior. In other words,
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  Speaker 4: a child's behaving in a bad way because they're having
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  Speaker 4: a hard time. They're feeling horrible. So we don't respond
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  Speaker 4: to the behavior, we respond to the feelings. We say,
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  Speaker 4: you're having such a hard time this morning. You just
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  Speaker 4: don't feel like getting out of bed and getting on
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  Speaker 4: with the day. You'd rather not go to school because
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  Speaker 4: you feel awful today, or you feel lonely, or you
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  Speaker 4: feel isolated at school, or you.
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  Speaker 3: Feel this and this.
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  Speaker 4: The behavior is irrelevant, it's the feelings that underpin it.
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  Speaker 4: That matter, and when we ignore the behavior, we all
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  Speaker 4: so ignore the feelings, and that's where kids start to
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  Speaker 4: have self esteem issues. That's where kids start to struggle
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  Speaker 4: with resilience because we feel like we don't. They feel
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  Speaker 4: like we don't care about them, not their behavior. They
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  Speaker 4: feel like we don't care about their feelings, which means
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  Speaker 4: we don't care about them.
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  Speaker 1: I love that, and I can see the logic of it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's funny because I mean, it makes sense
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  Speaker 2: because for years I've always thought that On the one hand,
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  Speaker 2: it logically makes sense to don't reinforce the negative behavior.
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  Speaker 2: On the other hand, it was the least sensical thing
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  Speaker 2: I've ever I've ever heard, because if they want attention,
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  Speaker 2: then then surely as a parent, my job is they're
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  Speaker 2: deprived of something, and if attentions it, I can give
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  Speaker 2: them that.
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  Speaker 3: You know what I call ADD.
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  Speaker 4: Everyone's been bang on about ADD for a couple of
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  Speaker 4: decades now. Attention deficit disorder. I call it something different.
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  Speaker 4: I call it adult deficit disorder. The kids, the kids
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  Speaker 4: aren't getting enough of us, and that's why they're playing up.
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  Speaker 3: It's incredible what happens. It doesn't matter.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, you think about the times where your children
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  Speaker 4: have been having a hard time and you've stopped what
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  Speaker 4: you've done, You've looked them in the eye. Guys, you've
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  Speaker 4: listened to them, and you've spent two minutes or twenty
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  Speaker 4: seconds with them in that moment. Do they turn around
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  Speaker 4: and say, I'm just going to keep on behaving like
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  Speaker 4: a bullfead because I can like?
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  Speaker 3: They don't.
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  Speaker 4: They They calm down, they respond, they feel understood, and
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  Speaker 4: we get rid of the challenging behavior. But when we
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  Speaker 4: ignore them, or when we get angry at them, we
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  Speaker 4: just blow it up and make it worse.
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  Speaker 2: What happens If they're just being playing annoying, just can
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  Speaker 2: we ignore them?
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  Speaker 4: Then?
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  Speaker 3: What do you do with Susie? You've been playing?
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  Speaker 1: No, I lock her in a room?
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  Speaker 4: Client, Yes, I've been waiting for this.
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  Speaker 3: May I have some dinner?
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  Speaker 2: Quite frankly, if Susan's been annoying, I take everybody out.
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  Speaker 2: We leave her here, we'll come back. We'll come back
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  Speaker 2: when you ad a good thing about your actions, Susie.
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  Speaker 4: He says, I should behave like that's causing the behavior,
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  Speaker 4: that's for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Dr Justin Kilson, thank you so so m for addressing
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  Speaker 1: that question. That's been bugging in my head for.
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  Speaker 3: A little while.
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  Speaker 4: I really appreciate it.
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  Speaker 3: That's a pleasure.
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  Speaker 1: And of course there are loads of resources available, lots
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  Speaker 1: of information, books, podcasts, and programs. You can find them
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  Speaker 1: all that happyfamilies dot com dot au. But if listening
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: to doctor Justin Coulson makes you think that people in
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: your organization or school could benefit from hearing him as well,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: you can find out how to have Justin speak for
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: your school or organization at Justincoulson dot com.