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S2 Ep 8: Alpha energy - Q & A Part 1 · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of us found ourselves entangled in the confusing world of
• 0:17
  gender and identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: following very different paths to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: we each discover that in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up
• 0:29
  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
• 0:38
  In this episode,
• 0:39
  we answer listener questions in part one of this season's first
• 0:43
  Q&A set.
• 0:44
  We were grateful that these questions lent themselves so well
• 0:48
  to a review of what
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: is meant by Alpha in the Stufelian framework of attachment.
• 0:54
  We talk much about the importance of getting bigger than the
• 0:56
  things that will
• 0:57
  divide us from our children so we can maintain connection and
• 1:00
  provide the necessary
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: conditions for our children to feel safe and able to rest in our care.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: Hello.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Fourth of July, we're recording on the holiday.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Fourth of July.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Independence Day.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to take this moment to...
• 1:24
  I'm going to take this moment to shamelessly plug a book that I
• 1:30
  read with my
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: children this past spring.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: For anyone who loves a good book, Johnny Tremaine.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: This is my shameless piece of propaganda.
• 1:44
  Ha, ha, ha, ha.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a novel, like a coming of age novel about a young boy in Boston.
• 1:51
  And it's fitting because it's 250th anniversary of the battles
• 1:55
  of Lexington and Concord.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the story that it revolves around.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it was written in...
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: during World War II by a woman who really wanted,
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 2:04
  the youth of that generation to understand the freedoms that
• 2:09
  were fought for by,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the men and boys and women of that age,
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  SPEAKER_00: of that,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the 17,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: 75,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: 76,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: the whole...
• 2:23
  era and um it's a beautiful story um totally fascinating very
• 2:29
  well written um so
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  anyone looking for like a good uh independence day read uh i
• 2:38
  think now more than
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: ever it's helpful helpful to i don't know just kind of remember
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Our roots.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a beautiful story.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: We loved it.
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  SPEAKER_02: The vertical.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Vertical.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: A friend sent me a great article about... It was an attachment.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: But it was, right?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: But this word was an attachment.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember what it was.
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  SPEAKER_02: But it talked about vertical...
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  not belonging darn it but that was the you know the
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  generational yes attachments
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  and then the horizontal attachments i'm like oh that's peer
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  attachment oh yes yes
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  exactly yeah it was different language but talking about
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  attachment essentially
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  SPEAKER_02: yeah
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to be able to please share that article with me.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's a video.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I will.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Today's a Q&A episode.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm so excited about that.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to thank everyone who submitted questions.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just really looking forward to this conversation for sure.
• 3:58
  So just to kind of set some,
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  you know,
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  again,
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  orient us to where we are in season two.
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  SPEAKER_00: Essentially,
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  we have covered sort of this first concept of Neufeld's larger
• 4:12
  model of the
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  SPEAKER_00: unfolding of human potential,
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  his larger attachment-based developmental model of kind of
• 4:20
  human potential and
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  SPEAKER_00: human development.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the first of the three keys to that is maturation.
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  SPEAKER_00: And going down to that level of maturation...
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  SPEAKER_00: Our first few episodes have focused on sort of the three sides,
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  SPEAKER_00: if we think of that as a two-dimensional triangle,
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  SPEAKER_00: the three aspects that work together to help our maturation unfold.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we've talked about...
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  So the emergent process,
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  so this kind of emergence of a separate self being a separate
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  being.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've talked about the adaptive process,
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  SPEAKER_00: which helps us to be what's called an adaptive being,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is essentially being able to suffer loss,
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  SPEAKER_00: trauma,
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  SPEAKER_00: frustration,
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  SPEAKER_00: hitting a wall of something that we cannot change.
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  SPEAKER_00: And being able to have our tears of surrender to be able to heal and,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: grow from those experiences.
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  It's the,
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  you know,
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  kind of the shit to fertilizer,
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  excuse my language,
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  you know,
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  concepts.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
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  SPEAKER_02: I guess what comes to mind right in this moment on that is the...
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  SPEAKER_02: The problems that can't be solved.
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  SPEAKER_02: The problems that can't be solved.
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  SPEAKER_02: So we must get bigger than them.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: So the adaptive process or being an adaptive being,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: being that second piece that we covered.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then the third side,
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  SPEAKER_00: which we have just kind of done two episodes on,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is the integrative process.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Which is where he speaks to the fruit of that being a social being.
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  SPEAKER_00: But essentially what that means is that we can still be ourselves,
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  SPEAKER_00: unique individuals,
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  SPEAKER_00: while being in relationship to others,
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  SPEAKER_00: which really requires a both and.
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  SPEAKER_00: It really requires a...
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  SPEAKER_00: on the one hand and on the other hand,
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  SPEAKER_00: so that be able to integrate two different thoughts,
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  SPEAKER_00: two different feelings,
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  SPEAKER_00: two different perspectives,
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  SPEAKER_00: even weighing kind of two different,
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  SPEAKER_00: two things being true at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And being able to have that sense of integrative.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of that third side of that maturation triangle.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's what leads us to our Q&A today is,
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  and I think it's a perfect time to do this because we've
• 6:45
  covered a lot of ground
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  SPEAKER_00: quickly.
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  And so I'm looking forward to sort of slowing down a little bit
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  and just really
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  SPEAKER_00: honing in on the questions that our audience has given us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's do it.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: Who's reading the first question?
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  SPEAKER_00: You should.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: Question number one.
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  How do I maintain connection with my daughter when she wants to
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  know my response to
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  SPEAKER_02: her fears on what's going on politically in our country?
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  SPEAKER_02: I.e.,
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  SPEAKER_02: what are your thoughts on our government's slide into fascism,
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  SPEAKER_02: on the government raids,
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  SPEAKER_02: etc.?
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't want politics to get between us,
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  SPEAKER_02: but it seems like I can never answer in a way that satisfies her.
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  SPEAKER_02: And another sign that we...
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  are not on her side in relationship if we are not lockstep on
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  these questions.
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  There are almost gotcha questions in my mind as she won't be
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  communicative and then
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  SPEAKER_02: fires out a text demanding a response.
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  SPEAKER_00: Excellent question.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent question.
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  SPEAKER_02: And relevant.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_02: To the maturation process.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I have a few different thoughts here,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I think where I want to start is with myself,
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  SPEAKER_00: my own story.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because when I hear this question and this example, what my immediate...
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  SPEAKER_00: The immediate picture that comes to my mind is of my own story.
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  Because I can see myself doing the exact same thing that this
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  mother's daughter is doing to her.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: because that's what I did to my own parents.
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  SPEAKER_00: I did that.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that was, yeah, I was wondering from which angle.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: I experienced some of this with my daughter, so.
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  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
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  SPEAKER_02: It'll be interesting to hear it from the child angle.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: so I did it as a young adult at college,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: and beyond,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: so I,
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  SPEAKER_00: for listeners who maybe knew,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  I invite anyone who's interested to go back to some of our
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  season one episodes
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  SPEAKER_00: where I feel like I really laid out,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot of
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  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that trajectory of myself where, you know...
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  SPEAKER_00: As I became more politicized,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that was a wedge of alienation between me and my parents.
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  SPEAKER_00: And,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  so I would do this kind of thing like coming home on college
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  breaks for Christmas,
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  SPEAKER_00: for example.
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  SPEAKER_00: I would attack my parents for buying too many presents.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was just like anything that indicated privilege or,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: them not being aware enough.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was just so bitter and jaded and critical,
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  and I think I just laid a lot on them all the time for a period
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  of years when I was
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  SPEAKER_00: still kind of under their roof.
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  But then when I kind of went on to live on my own in my later
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  20s and 30s,
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  SPEAKER_00: I certainly continued this in my own ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: And just as an example,
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  SPEAKER_00: when I was actually estranged from my parents for a period,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was estranged twice.
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  So first was when my wife and I started a family together and
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  they had laid down
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  SPEAKER_00: the law,
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  SPEAKER_00: she can't be in our house.
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  So I cut off ties with them at that point for a period of a
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  couple of years.
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  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we healed from that and re reintegrated.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then I,
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  SPEAKER_00: um,
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  SPEAKER_00: when I socially transitioned my very,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: very young son,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: and they wouldn't adapt,
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  SPEAKER_00: adopt the name and pronouns,
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  SPEAKER_00: I cut off ties a second time.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, um,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was during both of those periods of estrangement.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I would email my dad on his birthday or Father's Day.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel a great sense of shame in saying this, but it's true.
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  SPEAKER_00: In my birthday and Father's Day emails to him, I would thank him.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: in the tone and energy of this daughter's text messages,
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  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: thank you so much.
• 11:24
  I'm grateful to you for teaching me about the history of
• 11:29
  oppression towards Native Americans.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would literally say this.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this was my gratitude to him, okay?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 11:37
  thank because now it has helped me to be a good person you know
• 11:40
  like you helped
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  create who i am today which is a righteous and good and social
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  justice warrior
• 11:49
  thank you for teaching me about native americans like that's
• 11:52
  what i would thank him
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  with can you believe that but i hear that i hear what this mom
• 11:58
  is saying and i'm
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: like that was me that's how i talked to my parents for like 20 years
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:05
  Maybe not consistently every single time,
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  but you know,
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  that was the energy.
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  And I even remembered a few gotcha moments where I was trying
• 12:15
  to catch my dad,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: provoke him with my philosophy,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: which I was also righteous about and convinced,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: convinced that he was backwards and not doing life right.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:33
  not a good person because of his beliefs and the way he moved
• 12:38
  through life yeah
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  yeah exactly which is so different than what i was learning was
• 12:46
  acceptable and
• 12:49
  righteous is a good word yeah just so convinced you know and of
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  of the rightness of
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: my thoughts and beliefs and perspectives and cause and
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there's different things I could say based on that.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that there was a period of time
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: where my parents came alongside this with me,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: especially in college,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: my dad would come and visit and,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I supported Ralph Nader,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: the blowback to like those,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: that era of like the third party candidate,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: and he went to a Ralph Nader rally with me when he visited and just,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: and he just asked questions.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was just open and curious and,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know, he would just ask me questions about it.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he did come alongside a lot of this with me.
• 13:40
  My mom came with me leading up to a major anti-globalization
• 13:45
  protest where I took
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: her to,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: a church rally,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: around economic justice,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: she,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: and she,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: this is my mom,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: she,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: distributed brochures about it on the airplane on the way home.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 13:59
  So it was a shock to me when my parents couldn't come along for
• 14:06
  sexuality.
• 14:07
  Because they had come along,
• 14:09
  even if they didn't,
• 14:11
  you know,
• 14:12
  agree totally.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, they came along for these other pieces.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was, like, shocking.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: when they didn't come along on this.
• 14:25
  And,
• 14:27
  yeah,
• 14:27
  so I just,
• 14:28
  you know,
• 14:28
  I just want to put that out there in terms of my own confusion.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was still so convinced that I was right.
• 14:37
  You know,
• 14:37
  I was still so convinced that I was right and that there was
• 14:41
  only one way to see.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: First, you know, the sexuality piece and then the gender piece.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so...
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also thinking,
• 14:56
  can we notice here that this seems pretty consistent among
• 15:03
  young adults who are
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: emerging into the world and learning what is moral and good
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: is different than what their family has taught them.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: So there's these sort of generational shifts in culture.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think...
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think in some ways, it's concerning.
• 15:32
  You know,
• 15:33
  you don't want to come from a family who doesn't seem moral and
• 15:39
  good.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's disorienting.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 15:46
  And I think they're going to feel compelled to save their
• 15:48
  family in some way.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, or teach...
• 15:52
  They want to teach their parents how wrong they are so that
• 15:58
  they can be good and moral.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And there's also,
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: a little bit of,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if there's some natural individuation going on here.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 16:11
  I'm tapping into that sense of righteousness in myself with my
• 16:17
  father and that gotcha attitude.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, well, part of, um, I want to come back.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a very specific thing that I'm like, I want to make sure.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't mean to.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, no.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: You train.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you, you didn't.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 16:35
  you were like making all these little explosions go off in my
• 16:38
  mind of things,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: the connections.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so.
• 16:44
  I want to make sure that we come back in a moment to the fact
• 16:48
  that I actually think
• 16:49
  the daughter pinging these text messages off to provoke is
• 16:53
  actually her way of
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: maintaining connection.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to make sure we come back to that.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: So let's bookmark that.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I do want to say a couple things.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: This idea of righteousness...
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: is actually a sign of a non-integrative mind.
• 17:13
  It doesn't mean that the daughter doesn't have an integrative
• 17:17
  process that's
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: unfolding,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: because we can't be integrative in every moment of every day.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're just not.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that sense of certainty...
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: is one of these deficits of the non-integrative, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: So in our world,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: when we see someone who just has no doubt,
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: who has totally convinced black,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: white,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: wrong,
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: that's kind of that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I hesitate and I have so much caution even over saying that because
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want to believe that there is a capital T truth.
• 17:52
  As a Christian,
• 17:53
  you know,
• 17:54
  it's like there are aspects of that that I get why people say
• 17:58
  that.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like I don't want to just throw that out.
• 18:04
  And so I don't want to sound like I am 100% certain about that
• 18:10
  you can't have uncertainty.
• 18:12
  Okay.
• 18:12
  Yeah.
• 18:14
  But I do want to say that righteousness,
• 18:16
  I think,
• 18:17
  is something to observe and say,
• 18:20
  okay.
• 18:22
  And so just something to think about,
• 18:29
  that that may be an indicator of a purity of emotion.
• 18:36
  purity and it can I also then say isn't this also part of the
• 18:39
  process yeah is I is
• 18:43
  seeing yourself as a distinct being and could that also be part
• 18:47
  of this is
• 18:48
  distinguishing from your parents I don't know is that on the
• 18:54
  way to integration
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it potentially could,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: but I want to say,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe this is where my own bias may come in.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, maybe.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, it is also likely a sign of conformity with peers.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: And whatever information bubble that she's operating in.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: So yes and no.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes and no.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not to say don't be optimistic or have hope.
• 19:28
  But I do think it's like what we kind of talked about last week
• 19:32
  or last episode where...
• 19:35
  use it as a way to get in there and say try to say well on the
• 19:40
  one hand on the
• 19:41
  other well actually no don't do well don't let me not go there
• 19:44
  okay yeah yeah yeah
• 19:46
  just note it note it just note it just note it yeah i'm not
• 19:50
  sure this is the time
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: to do it yeah to do to to prime the pump yeah no no no no no
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: I take it back.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to also acknowledge with where I'm going with here,
• 20:05
  and we'll see if you agree with this as a response in a
• 20:10
  situation like this.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: I want to first say,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: I totally got sucked into this a few times with my own kid,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: and I could feel that gotcha,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like she's asking me this question that she sees and
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: as a moral question,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 20:26
  and she knows my answer and she knows it's not the answer she
• 20:29
  sees as moral.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so she is absolutely in that gotcha mode.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you can find the presence to do it and it is hard.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to acknowledge that too.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Don't play the game.
• 20:49
  yeah don't play the game she's don't don't get sucked into it
• 20:54
  don't answer the
• 20:55
  question yeah if she's asking the questions guess who's in
• 21:00
  alpha mode exactly you
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: hit the nail on the head
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if you can catch it, if you can.
• 21:13
  And it's a it's a felt sense,
• 21:16
  you know,
• 21:17
  because because of or at least it was for me.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:20
  It kind of throws me into this interesting confusion and I can
• 21:24
  feel it in my body
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: what's happening.
• 21:27
  And it can be so hard to resist it because you've been asked a
• 21:30
  direct question.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and we feel like we need to answer it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: But you don't.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah.
• 21:35
  Come back with,
• 21:36
  oh,
• 21:37
  this is really important to you or,
• 21:39
  you know,
• 21:39
  just turn it around.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: And invite.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Do what your dad did.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: Get curious about.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: what they're experiencing.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have a,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: so that's absolutely one idea just to say,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I see your passion here.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: What does this mean to you?
• 22:07
  And if that is frustrating for your daughter,
• 22:16
  the story comes back to me.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: When you were reading the question from the get-go,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: the other image,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: so first was myself,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: and then the other image that pops into my mind,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: is how Neufeld talks about when we have an alpha child and
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they're always taking that lead,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: for what whatever the cause may be that put them into alpha.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: OK.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: One way to kind of get back, you know, into that alpha relationship.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Mm hmm.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: is to essentially, what is it called?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're getting ahead of what's the inevitable.
• 22:56
  So it's like,
• 22:57
  I think you're going to tell me I'm a bad person now,
• 23:00
  so go right ahead.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And not in a cynical way,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: not in a mean way,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: but just like,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think what's coming next here is that you're going to
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what's wrong with me.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: So go ahead.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Go right ahead.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like inviting the inevitable,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: but it shows that the energy becomes that you're one step ahead of it.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're one step ahead of it.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you know what's coming and you assume that alpha position.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it can be,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: depending on the tension that's there,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: which I don't know in any particular individual's case,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: it almost gets a little time.
• 23:44
  tiny crack of play where it's like yes okay yes so here we go
• 23:50
  let's let's do this
• 23:51
  go ahead you know yes yes yes i think another little mantra
• 23:57
  here to hold in your
• 23:59
  mind don't say this out loud is you don't need to answer to
• 24:03
  your kid yeah yeah
• 24:05
  that's the vibe right that's in this interaction is she's
• 24:09
  looking for you to answer
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: to her
• 24:13
  and and and an alpha doesn't need to do that no yeah no and so
• 24:20
  and so what what can
• 24:22
  you do to put yourself back in alpha mode and i love that
• 24:27
  suggestion that strategy
• 24:29
  of get ahead of it yeah right show them that you're one step
• 24:32
  ahead yeah yeah that's
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: a great
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think he calls like inviting the inevitable.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, okay, you're going to tell me I'm a bad person now.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Go right ahead.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like that.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know your relationship, any individual who's listening.
• 24:55
  Don't do that if it's like you know it's going to make the
• 24:57
  frustration go over the top.
• 24:59
  Use that as it is appropriate for the relationship,
• 25:05
  the moment,
• 25:06
  the situation.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, even if it's something you just say to yourself...
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: and you don't actually vocalize, at least your energy has shifted.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: At least you're going to,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: whatever you do say in a response,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: which also doesn't need to be immediate.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's another thing.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Take a pause.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, even if, you know, oh, hi, honey, how are you today?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I'll get back to you a little later.
• 25:35
  You know,
• 25:35
  something where you're just getting a little separation from
• 25:39
  that need to
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, dive right in and play the game.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Do it on your terms only.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Bingo.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you are... Mm-hmm.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: This just makes me think of Alpha 2, right?
• 26:06
  If the interaction is happening on her terms in this situation,
• 26:10
  you're out of Alpha mode.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: So.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you can be caring.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can be warm.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can have.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Playful.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Playful.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: I liked playful.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: And also, you know, inside yourself have a very clear boundary.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Can I say one last thing here really quick?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've got another one or two also.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
• 26:37
  The other thing I just want to mention is that what Neufeld
• 26:42
  talks about in like
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: this idea of adolescence,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: adolescence being a bridge.
• 26:49
  between you know childhood and adulthood so and and we've
• 26:53
  talked about this before
• 26:54
  that we think you know adolescence likely is stretched out
• 26:58
  longer in our current
• 26:59
  day and age you know so we could even talk about this as a
• 27:02
  phase for like 20
• 27:03
  somethings you know that they still might be in that walking
• 27:06
  that bridge um or
• 27:08
  stuck somewhere on it potentially um or never cross it you know
• 27:13
  there's lots of
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: options but um
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: what he talks about is like that period of adolescence where,
• 27:20
  where young people get in this idealism kicks in the sense of
• 27:28
  idealism and they're
• 27:29
  going to see everything that doesn't measure up to the ideal as
• 27:33
  being deficient or
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: immoral.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: My son is so there right now.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: My 18 year old son is right there.
• 27:43
  He's going to see every single thing that you and your husband
• 27:46
  aren't doing it
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: right as a couple,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: the way you're living in the world not being right.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: It calls it out.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: The way people drive is immoral.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he is judging everybody so harshly.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: So this is like that rite of passage.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: It allows this idealism to unfold.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: how do we meet that as an alpha where we see it,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: we can reflect back to it,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: we can be curious about it.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot take it personally because it's not about us.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:29
  it feels like it always it will always feel like it's about us
• 28:33
  it will always make
• 28:35
  us react because we're so we love our child so much we're so
• 28:40
  bonded which is the
• 28:42
  power of the parent parental relationship but it's also one
• 28:46
  that you know we have
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: to have that our own integration around
• 28:52
  so we can kind of pause you know before just reacting out of
• 28:57
  that that that
• 28:58
  wounding that we feel which is the go-to and and what is likely
• 29:06
  wired into our
• 29:08
  brains right now totally gotta we've gotta make some new
• 29:12
  grooves yeah find a new
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: groove yep um
• 29:19
  wanted to hit this this wording right so it sounds like she's
• 29:26
  not getting a lot of
• 29:27
  communication except for this so this is going to come back to
• 29:31
  your point about the
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: connection and then fires out a text demanding a response
• 29:39
  And so even just that word demanding,
• 29:42
  I want to also bring us back to that idea of the alpha.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: You do not respond to your child's demands.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you feel it as a demand, again, this might be a time to...
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: Think about what you're seeing, you know, and that's probably accurate.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that's accurate.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: Your child is making a demand, right?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so my child's making a demand as an alpha.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't comply to the demand.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I see this as a reach out for connection.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: Which is what I've been craving anyway.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've wanted this connection.
• 30:28
  How can I turn this into a connection point instead of
• 30:30
  complying with the demand?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: How can I play with this?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, thank you for saying this.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And.
• 30:42
  What I'm reminded of is that even if this daughter is in her
• 30:50
  early 20s or 18,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: 19,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: 20,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still going to refer to her as a child.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize if that's not the right term, but...
• 31:00
  when your child yeah just when your child is in this alpha mode
• 31:05
  because that let's
• 31:07
  call it let's name it we have been but let's just be super
• 31:10
  explicit if she is
• 31:12
  making demands she is in alpha period end of story okay um so
• 31:19
  now we know that okay
• 31:22
  another thing we can read from that with this insight is that
• 31:28
  she is feeling unsafe
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like alpha,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: when a child goes into that alpha,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: unless they're in a caring alpha,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: that energy is so different.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: An 18,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: 19-year-old in caring alpha is looking out for the vulnerable,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: taking responsibility,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: nested in this hierarchy,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: in that cascade of care.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're nested in.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're confident.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're not...
• 32:02
  insecure and demanding okay so when we see the demand energy we
• 32:09
  have to say my
• 32:10
  child is an alpha what they need to feel is a sense of safety
• 32:17
  yes okay so perhaps
• 32:19
  that's also why she's reaching out to you you know totally
• 32:23
  unaware this is not
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: conscious okay so there's an act towards connection
• 32:30
  And underlying there,
• 32:33
  that alpha energy,
• 32:34
  there is going to be a sense of I am not safe.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So another aspect to consider in your response is like,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: honey,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: it is so good to hear from you.
• 32:48
  I can imagine all of this is making you feel,
• 32:51
  you know,
• 32:53
  a lot of uncertainty.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just this must feel so scary to you.
• 33:02
  so again it's a way of turning it back on her but um without
• 33:08
  having to respond to
• 33:09
  the demand that you declare your political allegiance right but
• 33:14
  just say but to
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: reflect back what is underneath this
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like when we talk about aggression and it's like,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: this is not,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: sweetheart,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: you didn't want it to go this way.
• 33:24
  This is not working for you because this is a frustration
• 33:28
  driving this aggression.
• 33:30
  When the demand is there,
• 33:33
  certainly there could be frustration,
• 33:35
  but there's probably also alarm.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you come alongside that?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, gosh, it's so good to hear from you.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this all must be so upsetting.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm glad you brought it to me.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what I do when I feel that sense of...
• 34:00
  of the unknown,
• 34:01
  of uncertainty,
• 34:02
  of things,
• 34:03
  you know,
• 34:03
  that feel really too big to change.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to respond here.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've given love.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you have the inroad,
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: if you have the inroad,
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe you work for that inroad in other ways,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: in little ways over the next few months,
• 34:26
  working the relationship so that you build a little bit more
• 34:31
  ability to respond in
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: that intimately.
• 34:35
  You know,
• 34:36
  if the intimacy isn't there right now,
• 34:38
  how do you build towards it so that...
• 34:45
  That openness may be,
• 34:47
  you know,
• 34:49
  the invitation to depend is going to be more open.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or I don't know if that makes sense.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: She might be able to be more vulnerable.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that can be tricky when they are not in the same city or,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: there's not a lot of interaction.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:13
  Or if the interaction is like accountability related instead of
• 35:20
  building those inroads.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: One more thing, I guess I just wanted to.
• 35:31
  pull it out of here that I think will also be relevant to the
• 35:33
  upcoming questions
• 35:34
  which by the way we can already see we're not going to get to
• 35:37
  all the questions
• 35:38
  that have been submitted today and we'll probably stay with
• 35:41
  this cluster that are
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: kind of related right I don't want politics to get between us yeah yeah
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think use that.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: You are aware that you don't want politics to get between you.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: So transcend the politics.
• 36:02
  And I think all of these suggestions that we have made are ways
• 36:06
  to do that.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get, don't, don't do what she's doing.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: And be entrenched in your worldview.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: And feel the need to, to persuade her.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is going to require that you get bigger than and not,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: and not get,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: I guess what I want to say here is when she asks this question,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can get stuck in the content.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so we've got to transcend the content of this gotcha and this demand.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so that so that the content doesn't divide us.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:49
  And that can be frustrating for the daughter because she wants
• 36:54
  that,
• 36:55
  you know,
• 36:56
  and that's OK.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: She can be frustrated.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is OK.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think of my dad is the master at this kind of thing.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say, I have to just give him so much credit.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: He has taught me a lot of this language.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: He applied it to me.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and there was times when I...
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: But this is what has made him so good at what he does in the world,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: in his profession,
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: in his career as a father.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he is able to have that diplomacy without a loss of integrity.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: That is what we are seeking here in our response.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: That is our integrative function.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's calling us to function integratively.
• 37:45
  I can be diplomatic without the loss of who I am in responding
• 37:52
  to my daughter.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I love that.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Diplomatic without loss of integrity.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Also very alpha.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:06
  Because now you're not being dishonest or inauthentic or just
• 38:10
  agreeing to keep the peace.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's not alpha either.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, honey, on the one hand, I know you want a certain response from me.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand,
• 38:22
  I really just want to focus on how much I love you and that I
• 38:26
  can see how hard this
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: is for you right now.
• 38:32
  you know i see what you want now you're and i'm not and this is
• 38:36
  where i'm gonna
• 38:36
  stay and every time you can use that language on the one hand
• 38:44
  and on the other
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: you're modeling that integration yeah exactly
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's probably very honest.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like you're actually being authentic in that response too.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: on the one hand,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: and you're showing that alpha by like,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: I see what you want,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: and this is where I am.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not coming,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going into that seeker mode where I'm just,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be subservient to your demands.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a good foundation.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Probably for this whole Q&A.
• 39:33
  And a great review of Alpha with some really concrete ways that
• 39:39
  that looks,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: in a specific situation.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this next one is challenging.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want me to read it?
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: But another about how to maintain connection.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you go ahead.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:00
  So the question is about how to maintain connection when I have
• 40:07
  to keep boundaries
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: with an 18-year-old with PTSD,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: so post-traumatic stress disorder,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: strong counter will,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: and crawling towards adulthood,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: lots of impulsive and risky behavior,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: and I fear self-hatred.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: So hard.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's so hard to see our kids in pain.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a clue in here, too, with this phrase, strong counter will.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the impulsive and risky behavior.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it looks like mom is also seeing lots of,
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: lots of immaturity with this phrase crawling,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: crawling towards adulthood.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to be very cautious about responding to this question.
• 41:18
  And I just want to say this sounds like a potential situation
• 41:23
  that is very,
• 41:24
  very specific.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:27
  And so anything that I reflect back,
• 41:30
  you know,
• 41:30
  it's just to say one size does not fit all.
• 41:35
  And it's up to mom to sort of discern from any conversation we
• 41:39
  have here what fits
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: and what doesn't to this,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: the specificity of her particular situation.
• 41:47
  So I just want to acknowledge that I see a lot of layers in
• 41:51
  this question that I just,
• 41:55
  you know,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have the background on.
• 41:59
  So I want to acknowledge the limitations of what I may be able
• 42:04
  to share in a general sense.
• 42:06
  So I'm going to focus in the general around some of these
• 42:09
  pieces versus what may be
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: more needed that I can't provide,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: which is the specificity.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: So speak more,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: maybe to start,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: about the counter will piece,
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: how that jumps out to you,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe we can go from there.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 42:35
  I would say this is relative to some of what we spoke about in
• 42:40
  the last response,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: that when we see counter will,
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: the child is likely feeling unsafe.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I go back to the basics of counter will where I say, you know,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: If it is true counter will, let me just put it that way.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: If it is true counter will,
• 43:16
  it means that the felt sense of the imposition of another's
• 43:22
  will is greater than
• 43:24
  the sense of attachment the child feels to you or to the adult
• 43:30
  who's imposing their
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: will.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 43:34
  So,
• 43:35
  you know,
• 43:35
  that's kind of,
• 43:36
  for lack of a better term,
• 43:37
  sort of the formula.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like the basic formula, like.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: If,
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: if it is true counter will,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm going to do the opposite of whatever is being asked of me.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: and that's just a,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: that kind of instinctual reaction when I feel like I'm being,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: the coercion outweighs the attachment.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: When I see the impulsive and risky behavior,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: that clues me into a potential for like defendedness against feelings,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: specifically defense against alarm.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: Alarm is the primal emotion that should move us to caution.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: Mm hmm.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: OK.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we're risk seeking.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 44:43
  that could be because we've sort of numbed out that feeling of
• 44:49
  alarm and we want
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: to,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: we get driven to seek it in other ways.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: those are some pieces there,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: where I'm like,
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: is there,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: both if we're considering counter will and this risky behavior,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: that to me,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 45:09
  is like there could be this potential defendedness in the
• 45:13
  system against vulnerable
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: emotion.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: Against vulnerable emotion.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: When I see the PTSD aspect,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: if we're talking about an experience of trauma,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: then we're talking about the adaptive process.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then we're talking about the adaptive process.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because as we covered in that material a few episodes ago...
• 45:52
  It is the ability to have our tears that allows us to be
• 45:58
  resilient and bounce back
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: from experiences of trauma.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say another thing about this aspect of resilience.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if I can find a free video on the Neufeld YouTube,
• 46:20
  I believe there is a whole keynote about resilience and bounce
• 46:23
  back that we could
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: link in our show notes.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: I did not listen to it prior to the show,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: so I'm just going to kind of speak to what I remember now.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: So all of this is like, is there a way to soften the defenses, right?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a way to soften the defenses?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: If it is counter will,
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: if there is defendedness against alarm,
• 46:49
  and if there is kind of this stuckness in where the adaptive
• 46:54
  process is not
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: unfolding,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: then part of this is softening the defenses,
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: okay?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say there's going to also be an aspect of needing to be alpha.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 47:12
  And which is going to facilitate that connection that this mom
• 47:16
  is asking about.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do I stay connected?
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, remember attachment is hierarchical.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: that provider and seeker,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: that alpha mode is going to help the child to feel safe.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to help soften the defenses.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 47:35
  The aspect of resilience that I want to speak to is that
• 47:43
  there's also an aspect of
• 47:44
  it in that alpha mode as a parent is the ability to sort of
• 47:48
  look into your child's
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: eyes and say,
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: you've got this.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I know that that can create frustration in a lot of these kids.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like that specific sentence coming out of mom's mouth.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't got this, you know, or don't say that, or it feels like a lie.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: At least when it hits the child, right?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:34
  And I think,
• 48:35
  you know,
• 48:37
  something I've heard you say,
• 48:42
  like,
• 48:42
  you've got this because I've got you.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so what are those words?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, looking into their eyes and conveying that message.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: We've got this.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:59
  yeah right you're so right and and i would not ever so just
• 49:05
  again this is like
• 49:06
  generalities not specificities but if there is that
• 49:10
  defendedness there um that
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: would not be the time to try to look in the child's eyes
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, yeah, convince them that probably would kick in that counter will.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just boom.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for saying that.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for saying that.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, you're right.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it goes the main thing.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm kind of picking apart some of the threads of this question.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the overall like 300 foot picture is the generous invitation.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_03: Mm hmm.
• 49:46
  Like you're saying,
• 49:47
  like getting big enough to hold all of this difficulty.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:01
  And I'm thinking too,
• 50:02
  seeing and naming it,
• 50:04
  I think sometimes we want to redirect.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or...
• 50:14
  the intensity of the pain because we think that's what's needed
• 50:19
  you know we want
• 50:20
  them to feel like it's like it is okay it's going to be okay
• 50:24
  and if we jump to that
• 50:25
  without first acknowledging the pain that they're in yeah I
• 50:33
  think they need to be
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: seen for that yeah you're in so much pain right now yeah yeah
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: I can see how upset and afraid you are.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's very alpha too.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think when we're trying to diminish maybe,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: which again,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_02: in the best intentions,
• 51:02
  like helping them see that life is good and that there's lots
• 51:06
  to live for,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: but skipping over this seeing it part,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: it can feel a little seeker.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: If that makes sense.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's what we need.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: We need them to see.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: Rather it's right.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's hard for us to see the pain that they're in.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so we, I think we can kind of deny that even in ourselves.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so getting big enough,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: like you were saying,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: how can I get big enough to acknowledge the level of pain?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: My kid is failing.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: And to convey, I'm with you through it.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm here with you.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's so beautifully said.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the energy I want to convey in this response.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly what you're saying.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the visual that comes to my mind,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: it's from Neufeld's Intensive 2 course called The Separation Complex,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: but it's like he goes through,
• 52:07
  that's where all of these concepts of like the primal emotions
• 52:10
  of frustration,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: alarm,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: pursuit,
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: what happens when we become defended against them?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: And all the ways that can manifest,
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: which is like there is this thing called defensive detachment,
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: If the wounding is too big,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: the brain can kick this in and it's like the child becomes,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: it's like the magnet polarity.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like closed off, attaching in every other direction but the parent.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of this, it becomes very, very complex and very tricky.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:49
  but the ultimate answer is exactly what you said and the visual
• 52:55
  is like you see all
• 52:56
  this fragmentation all of the mess of whatever complex dynamics
• 53:03
  are underneath you
• 53:05
  know the impulsivity the risk taking the counter will the
• 53:09
  defendedness the defense
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: is just kicking in which make it so hard to get that softening of
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Towards us to rest in us.
• 53:20
  But it's like the visual we need to have is that we are giving
• 53:22
  that whole mess a bear hug.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:28
  We're giving the whole thing just this giant bear hug in our
• 53:33
  energy towards it,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: in our disposition towards it.
• 53:38
  And and hopefully being able to feel inside that we've got this
• 53:44
  in order that we
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: reflect that to our child.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: And another thing that I'm thinking of with this,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: that I want to ask this mom is like,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: what does your child like to do?
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: What do you like to do together?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are there just,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think of my,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: my,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: my,
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: my wife's baby sister who went through,
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: this could be her profile.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 54:10
  You know,
• 54:10
  in her,
• 54:11
  not just in her adolescence,
• 54:12
  but in her early twenties,
• 54:13
  this continues.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: one of the things that has helped her most to crawl towards maturity,
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: she's still crawling,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: is going on walks with her parents.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just her mom,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: in her 20s,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: she's still,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 54:38
  she's living with her mother and her mother holds that space of
• 54:42
  unconditional love.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: The generous invitation.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: While also, you know,
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Knowing she can't save her.
• 54:56
  That there are these internal things that have to unfold within
• 55:02
  her over time.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: That she can't control.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: But what my stepmother-in-law has said to me is, I signed on to this.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to see it through.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: And she has,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: and she will,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: there's things that are happening that she wishes were not happening,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: that are risk-taking,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: that are...
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: But she provides that safe and stable landing, home base.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the prayer is that the maturity will unfold,
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: even if it takes 10,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: 15 years,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: even if it takes 20 years more,
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: that it will continue to slowly unfold.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, situations come to mind, and...
• 56:08
  this sentence of well this part of the sentence you know we're
• 56:14
  talking about
• 56:15
  maintaining connection and i hear a lot of this needing to be a
• 56:18
  softening and how
• 56:19
  do we create that softening you know what it's within our power
• 56:24
  to do there when so
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: back to the question when i have to keep boundaries
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm curious about that,
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 56:37
  and whether in that dynamic that you described of the child
• 56:45
  connecting and
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: understanding.
• 56:48
  every way possible,
• 56:49
  but with parents that there can also be a lot of repulsive
• 56:53
  behavior.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: When we think about the magnets.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 56:58
  And so is that where these boundaries are that she's talking
• 57:02
  about,
• 57:03
  right?
• 57:04
  Is she needing to protect herself from what feels like abuse
• 57:09
  from the child?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, I mean, I don't know.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to speak to that.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, again, it's like I don't know the specific scenario.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I just I'm so cautious around.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 57:34
  if you feel like you are going to be threatened with violence
• 57:38
  or you are actually
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: unsafe,
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: you need to do what you need to do to protect yourself.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I think if it's a more emotional wounding or,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: we kind of go back to that first question where we say,
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: I am in the alpha mode.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: I do not have to meet these demands.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can come alongside the pain.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can be bigger than it.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I can say on the one hand, I see you are struggling here.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love you, my heart aches for you.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: And on the other hand, this is a no.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: So being that angel of comfort and agent of futility, which is so hard.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hard, yes.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:40
  And making those choices for what you can make work for the
• 58:43
  child to lessen the
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: frustration in the system.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:48
  while also too yeah yeah while also there are a lot of putting
• 58:53
  out fires right how
• 58:55
  do you i think sometimes in these dynamics it can just feel
• 58:58
  like a constant you're
• 59:01
  in constant response and reaction you know and it can be
• 59:05
  difficult to to shift the
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: relationship um
• 59:12
  to something more playful and warm yes yes but is there a way
• 59:18
  to just get in just
• 59:22
  you know is there a tv series that that the child likes to
• 59:27
  binge watch that you can
• 59:28
  watch together even if you're just physically sitting side by
• 59:32
  side staring at a
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: screen
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 59:35
  And this is not a time to,
• 59:36
  like,
• 59:37
  figure out something healthy to model for them.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, it doesn't freaking matter.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: Getting in their world.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: Being beside them.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: How do you get beside them?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: Literally.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is what I'm hearing.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go back to those six stages of attachment.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: Start at the senses.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: Start at the senses.
• 1:00:00
  What can you do that you are in proximity and that you are
• 1:00:05
  enjoying something side
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: by side that your child likes?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole thing is retreating into relationship.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're not doing lesson teaching here.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're not, you know, using what they're attached to against them.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: We are...
• 1:00:24
  trying to focus on our relationship and creating a sense of
• 1:00:31
  safety and reducing the
• 1:00:34
  frustration yeah because if it's impulse itself if there is
• 1:00:40
  self-harm involved
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: there is um aggression in the system it's being taken out on
• 1:00:51
  the child's own self or on the parents totally it could be that
• 1:00:56
  too yeah attacking
• 1:00:58
  behavior toward the parents yeah so it's like everything else
• 1:01:06
  the focus becomes the
• 1:01:08
  relationship and how do you get play how do you get some how do
• 1:01:13
  you get a sense of
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: depending on
• 1:01:20
  and softening towards that and it's it's it could take a long
• 1:01:24
  time yeah this is i
• 1:01:31
  i'm thinking of the some of those integrative or those mixed
• 1:01:37
  emotions like patience
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: and
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_02: Courage.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yes, yes, yes.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you nourish and sustain yourself for the long run?
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:01:53
  where do you find your own resilience through having your own
• 1:02:01
  tears for all that is
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: not working?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: And depending on how soft...
• 1:02:08
  you may or may not come with your child like eventually those
• 1:02:13
  movies that you watch
• 1:02:14
  together if you can start to build more of an openness more of
• 1:02:19
  a softness by by
• 1:02:22
  doing that side by side binge watching or whatever it may be
• 1:02:25
  memes I mean what is
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: your child into
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:30
  What what are they into that you can come alongside with and be
• 1:02:33
  involved in and
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: enjoy together,
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: even if you're faking it?
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: OK, you got to fake it till you make it.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 1:02:40
  can you eventually get to a place where you might watch
• 1:02:43
  something that's a little
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: sad together?
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to reinforce, throw away the need, the compulsion to teach.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: Stop it.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: Don't go direct here.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is not about pushing her toward maturity.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, you're actually creating dependence.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_02: We want her emotional, you know, dependent on mom.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_02: And feeling safe.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: Held.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: Contained.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually, you know, with the yearning.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Soft.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: the yearning to get to that softness for tears,
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: which is the ultimate answer to any past trauma,
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: is the softening into the futilities and having those tears,
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: which is intimately linked to...
• 1:03:49
  So you know that the softness and we're going to get into this
• 1:03:52
  you know in our next
• 1:03:53
  episodes but this vulnerability is like the next thing we're
• 1:03:57
  going to talk about in
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: this this bigger model of unfolding of human potential so.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: The key role of having a vulnerable heart,
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: being able to feel the vulnerable feelings,
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: that that is what allows us to get this integrative functioning,
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: to be able to have those mixed emotions.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be able to feel them.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have to be able to soften to them.
• 1:04:24
  So yeah,
• 1:04:25
  I think what you're saying is kind of a perfect closing is
• 1:04:28
  just...
• 1:04:31
  that we let go of that need to sculpt and we trust in the
• 1:04:37
  unfolding and what is our
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: role within it,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: providing that sense of safety,
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: coming alongside,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: finding those ways to just inch towards connection,
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: even if it's just at the level of the senses.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so we are at time, Rose.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: True to form, we tackled two questions.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_02: We have three more, and hopefully we will get to all three of those.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: I would imagine we can.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_02: In our next part two of this Q&A series.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: Let's aim for that.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I just as I as I we're close here,
• 1:05:25
  I just want to say thank you for the moments when you said to
• 1:05:29
  me that ain't going
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_00: to work.
• 1:05:32
  For a lot of these kids and a lot of these moms,
• 1:05:36
  they tried that already.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want to just reiterate my sense of like being humbled and like,
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have all the answers,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: but I,
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: but I,
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: I want to,
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_00: what I want to emanate forth is the feeling,
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: the energy of shifting into that alpha place inside ourselves.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to know that I believe in you and I...
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, take what is helpful and leave the rest.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: And just, again, always open to feedback.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: So thankful for the times when you can say, nope.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, take it in stride.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Rose.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I always leave these episodes with new insights myself.
• 1:06:40
  And sometimes wish,
• 1:06:41
  you know,
• 1:06:41
  my kids were here so I could practice more of this and try it
• 1:06:48
  out.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: oftentimes I'm learning through my clients these days,
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_02: and what is working for them and what's not.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, grateful for that.
• 1:07:01
  for the courage it takes to even just show up to these
• 1:07:08
  conversations you know
• 1:07:10
  because this is this is about personal responsibility and the
• 1:07:14
  moms that are
• 1:07:14
  listening are looking for what's within their power to do and
• 1:07:19
  are willing to look
• 1:07:20
  at themselves and try new things and that just takes tremendous
• 1:07:26
  courage that I'm so
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_02: grateful for
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I absolutely agree.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely agree.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, happy Independence Day, everyone.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: Belated.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: Belated.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll be back again soon.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: With more Q&A.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: Have a wonderful day, Rose.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_02: You too.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_02: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:08:00
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:08:02
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:08:06
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the
• 1:08:10
  conversation.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: As always,
• 1:08:12
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:08:15
  comments and hope you
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_02: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.