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May Young on Biblical Lament as Resistance, Resilience, and Hope · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
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walk boldly into the future. Whether
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you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with
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Dr. May Young. Dr. Young
0:53
is Associate professor of Biblical Studies
0:56
and chairs the Department of Biblical Studies,
0:59
Christian Ministries, Intercultural Studies
1:01
and Philosophy at Taylor University.
1:04
She has contributed to several volumes focused
1:07
on Lament, including Reading the Psalms,
1:10
Theologically and World
1:13
Christianity and COVID 19
1:15
Discourses and Perspective. She is
1:18
a member of the Evangelical Theological Society
1:21
and the Society of Biblical Literature
1:24
and serves on the Board of Directors of the
1:26
Institute of Biblical Research as well as
1:29
the editorial board for Sacred Roots.
1:32
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
1:35
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review and share Future Christian with a
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with comments, questions, or ideas for future
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in how we faithfully discern the future of the
2:01
church.
2:11
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
2:14
Richmond, Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined by
2:17
Dr. Mae Young. Hello and welcome to the show.
2:20
>> May Young: Thank you for having me.
2:22
>> Loren: Yeah, thank you for being here. Looking forward to having this conversation.
2:25
Uh, anything else you want to say about yourself before we begin?
2:29
>> May Young: Um, let's see. I guess to
2:33
let our hearers know a little bit about me. I
2:36
enjoy hiking. Um, I enjoy,
2:39
uh, action movies.
2:41
Um, and then as for TV
2:44
shows, I kind of like the crime shows that are on prime
2:47
time, like the FBI and cis. I
2:50
don't know why I'm drawn to action and crime.
2:53
Maybe that's why I need to lament.
2:55
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So are you going to see the new.
2:58
When does the new Mission Impossible come out? Are you going to see that?
3:02
>> May Young: Uh, yeah. You know what? I think I'd like to, um. I think it's
3:04
gonna come out, actually. Isn't it coming out
3:07
later this month or so? I don't know. I didn't really follow
3:10
that, but yes, I probably like to
3:13
watch.
3:14
>> Loren: Do you have, like, a top three top favorite like
3:17
action movies?
3:19
>> May Young: Well, you know, I used to really like the Marvel
3:21
franchise.
3:23
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
3:24
>> May Young: But in the more recent movies, I don't feel like
3:27
they have been that good. Although I heard that the
3:30
most recent one was supposed to be good, so I don't know. I have to
3:32
yet watch that and see.
3:34
>> Loren: Yeah. What is that the
3:37
camera, what it's called?
3:40
>> May Young: I actually don't remember.
3:44
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good.
3:46
Um, well, lest we get
3:49
too deep into action movies in the MCU
3:52
universe here, share, if you
3:55
would, just about your faith journey, what that looked like in the past and what
3:58
looked like today.
4:00
>> May Young: Sure. You know, I think there was a turning point in
4:03
my high school years, um,
4:06
when in the past I felt that,
4:09
um, being a Christian, you know, I saw
4:12
myself as a Christian, but I didn't
4:15
really, uh, see myself
4:18
fully surrendered in every aspect of my life
4:21
to the Lord. Um, and that particularly
4:24
was maybe in the area of, uh, even
4:26
vocation at that time in high school.
4:30
Um, and so there was a turning point in my life
4:33
where, you know, I had my own
4:35
plans of what I wanted for my future. And
4:38
I was listening to a sermon, and it wasn't anything like
4:41
spectacular or anything, but it was just the content
4:44
was the pastor was just really challenging me, saying,
4:48
you know, where are you investing? Are you investing in
4:51
eternal things or just things in
4:53
this life? And I had to be
4:56
honest, and I felt like I wasn't really investing in eternal things.
4:59
I was just thinking more about the future and what that might look
5:02
like here and now.
5:05
Um, and that was when the Lord challenged
5:08
me to say, you know, if I
5:11
called you to a certain vocation, would you surrender
5:13
that to me? Uh, even if it's going to the mission
5:16
field or, uh, doing some kind
5:19
of ministry? And at that point, you
5:22
know, that had never crossed my mind, and I kind of.
5:25
It was probably one of those fears like, oh, no, he's going to call me in
5:28
the mission field.
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>> Loren: Right, right.
5:30
>> May Young: But I had to come to that place and I had to say, you
5:33
know, um, this life is
5:36
not my own, and it belongs to the
5:39
Lord. And so I said, lord, if you.
5:42
Whatever you want, if you're calling me to the mission field, that's
5:44
fine, or however you wanted to do it. And
5:48
that took me to a turning point in my life to
5:51
realize that even my future and
5:53
my vocation, everything belongs to God.
5:56
>> Loren: Uh, well, thanks for sharing that.
5:58
What has been some spiritual practices, some spiritual disciplines
6:01
that have kind of helped you, you're willing to share?
6:04
>> May Young: Sure. I think um, probably in
6:07
the more recent years,
6:10
I would say, the practice of
6:12
fasting.
6:14
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
6:15
>> May Young: You know, I feel like
6:18
that, you know,
6:23
um, living in the US
6:25
and having a lot, uh, at our
6:28
disposal. And I love food.
6:32
Fasting is never easy. You know, fasting is
6:35
just, you know, even though I
6:38
do, if no matter how long I practice it, it's
6:41
kind of like. It's always just hard to
6:45
not, you know, uh, to kind of just say,
6:48
you know, I'm going to put that aside to seek the Lord
6:52
and. But I feel like it's very
6:55
meaningful and has taught me
6:58
about self control, um, taught
7:01
me about, you know,
7:03
um, not necessarily always having
7:06
my way or,
7:09
um, always just satisfying my flesh,
7:11
um, and knowing
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how to wait on the Lord,
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um, and wait on his timing.
7:20
>> Loren: Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing that. That's really,
7:23
uh, enlightening.
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Well, we're here to talk with Mae about her book,
7:29
Walking with God. Excuse me. Walking with God
7:32
through the Valley. Recovering the Purpose
7:35
of Biblical Lament. And
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I suppose we'll ask this question just to get things started to kind of
7:41
boilerplate. Like, tell me about what inspired the
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book. What made you want to write it?
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>> May Young: Sure. Uh, what inspired me, I
7:49
guess, was actually a very difficult time in my own life.
7:52
Um, which, you know,
7:55
I think up to that. Up to, I guess,
7:58
a certain, you know, growing up in the church, you know,
8:01
I knew that, you know, suffering is
8:04
part of the Christian life and difficult times.
8:07
But, uh, when I experienced a
8:10
time when I was
8:13
a young wife and we were church planting and
8:17
my, um, ex husband was
8:20
unfaithful, it was like I didn't know what to
8:23
do. Um, felt like
8:26
the rug was pulled underneath my feet,
8:28
and I didn't know what life
8:32
would be like in the future. And everything just
8:34
was very scary and very, you know,
8:37
difficult and just. I just
8:40
came to a point where I didn't know what was next.
8:43
And, um, it
8:46
just almost felt like, you know, I was
8:49
looking over a cliff in some ways, like, what do I
8:52
do now? What happens now? What happens in life? And,
8:56
you know, it's not what I expected
8:58
in any way. Um, about
9:01
life, marriage, future,
9:04
and having to grapple with that,
9:06
um, and my own faith and God's
9:09
faithfulness, um, and just really
9:12
leaning into God during that time.
9:15
Um, I really. That was actually the first time
9:18
that I even thought about lament, because I really never even thought
9:21
about the concept of lament. We never really heard about that growing up
9:24
in the church, to be honest. Like, I never.
9:27
I didn't Even know about the concept, really.
9:30
Um, but I found myself during that
9:33
time just, like, praying and
9:35
reading the psalms and, like, crying
9:38
and, you know, for, like,
9:41
that was the only thing that would actually bring
9:44
comfort into my heart.
9:46
>> Loren: Wow.
9:46
>> May Young: And I was just thinking, like, you know,
9:50
what happens? Like, no one prepares
9:53
you for what happens when you're
9:55
going through difficult times and
9:59
you wake up the next day and nothing changes.
10:02
Uh, or you wake up the next day again and
10:05
nothing changes, because you're always, always, like, hoping
10:08
for something to change and something to
10:11
be better in some ways. But how do you handle it
10:14
when something is
10:16
broken and it's
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not changing? You know,
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um, do we process. How do we process
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that kind of pain and doubt
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and how do we trust God? And I
10:31
really found that during that time
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of struggle, that God was closer to me
10:37
than ever. Um, and that he
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was, you know, uh, like,
10:43
when I felt like I hit rock bottom and he was the
10:46
rock.
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>> Loren: Wow.
10:47
>> May Young: And, um. And I. And I was. And I. And then when
10:50
I thought about that, I was like, how come I
10:53
never really learned about this in the
10:56
church? You know, how come, you know, this is not something that we
10:59
talk about when, you know, uh.
11:02
Because something that I mentioned in my book is, like,
11:04
sometimes a lot of times what we hear about is
11:08
after people have gone through difficult times,
11:11
they talk about how they've
11:13
overcome. But how about when you're in that time?
11:17
You know, how about when you don't feel like you're overcoming and you
11:20
feel like, is there something wrong with me that I'm not
11:22
overcoming? Is there something wrong with me that nothing's changing?
11:25
Does God not love me? Is, you know, is something happening? Is
11:28
this judgment? You, uh, know, like, all these questions
11:31
that come into our heads instead of really, like,
11:34
realizing in the midst of our suffering and
11:37
pain that, you know, there's something called biblical
11:39
lament that God wants us to come to him,
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to pray and to leave these pains and process
11:45
these pains in his presence in the midst of it,
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instead of just waiting for, you know, that. That
11:51
triumphant, you know, overcoming.
11:55
>> Loren: Yeah. You shared so much there. Thank you. Thank you for sharing
11:58
that. You know, I'm struck by something you said. I'm not sure
12:01
if. If I'm reminded of something from your book or from another
12:04
book. This idea of, like,
12:06
overcoming so much of.
12:09
Especially, like, modern worship songs, right? Are this.
12:12
Like, there's no, like,
12:15
I feel like you write about this, but there's no, like, lamet songs.
12:18
Like, they're all, like, I've overcome songs.
12:22
And that's a hard place for that.
12:24
>> May Young: There's not a place for that.
12:25
>> Loren: Yeah, right.
12:26
>> May Young: I think that's great, and I think people do need that,
12:30
but I think we also need to know what happens
12:33
in that process too. And I think people don't
12:36
know. We just want to jump to the
12:38
overcoming. I think that's what. And then
12:42
when we don't feel that, then we feel there's something
12:45
wrong with us because we don't know that process.
12:48
>> Loren: Yes. So good.
12:50
Well, let's talk about, we're kind of talking around this,
12:53
Talk through what is biblical lament
12:56
and how it offers, you know, a way to process suffering,
12:58
injustice, pain, disappointment, all that. And I think
13:01
that's what's so powerful.
13:03
>> May Young: Sure. I, I, I think that why
13:06
I particularly say biblical
13:09
lament is because I feel like the concept
13:12
of lament has been more
13:14
popularized, and I'm thankful for that. And I, I'm,
13:17
I'm grateful that there's more talk about lament than
13:20
ever before. You know, like I said, growing up in the church, I never
13:23
even heard of the word. But now people,
13:26
because of probably all the things that we're facing
13:29
all over the world, that lament is something
13:32
that's brought to the foref. But why I
13:35
talk about recovering the concept or the
13:37
practice or the purpose of biblical lament
13:40
is because I feel like, um, biblical
13:43
lament goes beyond this general
13:46
understanding of merely expressing the reality of
13:49
suffering. And what I state in
13:52
my book is that I think biblical lament is an act of faith.
13:55
Um, at the end of the day, it's crying out
13:58
to God honestly, and our suffering and our
14:01
injustice and our anger and our
14:04
sin and disappointments and griefs and doubts,
14:07
you know, um, so that, you
14:10
know, biblical lament invites God into our
14:12
struggle, um, and into our pain
14:15
and doubts, and it helps us, sets us on, um,
14:18
this path to become people of
14:21
resilience, you know, so that we're not just stuffing
14:24
our pain or pretending like we're
14:27
fine when we're not, but actually
14:29
honestly dealing with them in the presence of God.
14:34
>> Loren: Yeah. Such good, uh, such good stuff here.
14:37
I want to move to this because I'm thinking about,
14:39
again, thinking about even
14:42
the last several years, how there's been societally
14:45
so much pain and injustice and
14:48
disappointment and suffering. You write in the book about
14:51
lament being prophetic. Excuse me,
14:54
prophetic and an, uh, active resistance, which again, I found
14:57
interesting, because we don't
15:00
think of lament as such. So talk
15:03
more through that because I think it's such a powerful
15:05
image.
15:07
>> May Young: Sure. So There are kind of two separate
15:10
things here, so maybe I'll talk about them a little bit separately. So
15:13
lament as, like, an act of
15:16
resistance first, let's say that. So
15:19
in one way, I think that
15:22
lament, and this I address in one of
15:25
my chapters, um, about the purpose of
15:28
lament. And I think lament is a way for us to have
15:31
a voice. It gives us voice in our pain.
15:34
So in some ways, it's like giving agency,
15:37
like, even in the midst of pain. So when we're
15:40
suffering, a lot of times we feel powerless
15:44
and voiceless, um,
15:46
but through. And almost like a victim,
15:49
you know, but through lament, we're
15:52
reclaiming our emotions rather than
15:55
giving pain and suffering the final word.
15:58
And, you know, I actually think about this. This is probably
16:01
really relevant in the sense that right now there's, like,
16:04
in the news, there's this hearing with, you know,
16:07
Sean Combs or P. Diddy.
16:10
>> Loren: Yes.
16:10
>> May Young: Um, and his ex girlfriend, Cassie
16:12
Ventura. And I think, you know, it
16:15
gets it. You know, the violence and the things that, uh. It's just
16:18
terrible. And I think in the midst of, like,
16:21
testifying and recounting the violence and suffering
16:24
that this woman had to endure, she actually
16:26
calls herself a survivor, not a
16:29
victim.
16:30
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
16:31
>> May Young: And there's this shift of moving
16:33
from, like, this passivity to more of a
16:36
resilience, so this process of healing. So
16:39
it's not just seeing herself as one who received harm,
16:42
abuse, but she's actually facing this,
16:44
testifying to this, actually having the courage
16:47
to say these things and to seek justice.
16:51
And so I think there's a part of that
16:53
that's, you know, giving voice to her
16:56
pain, giving agency, uh, in this kind
16:59
of lament and an act of resistance in
17:02
some ways, to the things that she's gone through. But
17:04
also. And this is where the, you know, it's
17:07
prophetic in the sense that lament is talked
17:10
about in the prophets that we see in the Old Testament.
17:13
The Old Testament prophets call out,
17:16
like, specific injustices,
17:19
uh, throughout the Old Testament. And in
17:22
that calling out, they're also
17:25
igniting this imagination for the community,
17:28
for what. What they could be if they stood
17:31
for real, true justice and mercy
17:34
that God calls for. So instead of, like,
17:37
normalizing the systematic,
17:40
like, or systemic injustice
17:43
and turning a blind eye, you know, for which is what
17:46
people were doing in the Old Testament.
17:48
>> Loren: Right.
17:48
>> May Young: But acknowledging through lament,
17:51
that helps the community to kind of stand,
17:55
uh, with a prophetic voice with those who are
17:58
suffering. So it's a call out to the community for change.
18:01
And for advocating for those who are suffering. So
18:05
it not only gives voice to the sufferer, but it
18:08
also is giving voice to the community,
18:11
to call out the injustice, to call out the
18:14
evil, instead of just turning a blind eye.
18:16
Because I think sometimes when there's so much
18:20
that is going around us that we feel almost
18:23
paralyzed, like, what can we do in all of this?
18:26
You know, how to. And then our.
18:29
Our emotions actually almost turn to apathy.
18:32
Like, we just so. We just don't even know what to do. We're so
18:35
overcome. But here in lament, you
18:38
know, when we're lamenting together, we're lamenting before
18:41
God. There's a way for us to
18:43
process those emotions in some ways and to call
18:46
out the injustice and say that we see it
18:49
instead of just you kind of bearing
18:52
it away.
18:53
>> Loren: Yeah, I want to come back to that, but I. I do want to ask
18:56
about this, because you talked about apathy,
19:00
and I think. I don't know, maybe this is maybe in my own
19:03
faith tradition or faith nurturing, where I. I
19:06
feel like I, uh, really resonated with this part. You write about
19:09
Christian faith. Not meant to being about stoic
19:12
acceptance. And I know stoic acceptance is not
19:15
necessarily apathy, but I feel like they're.
19:18
I feel like they're related. Talk more about that.
19:21
>> May Young: Sure. Uh, I, uh, think, you know, when I'm talking
19:24
about it in that way, I think I'm trying to
19:27
address here that God created us as
19:30
human beings who feel. So we're not robots.
19:33
God never created us to be robots.
19:36
We're not called to, like, stuff our feelings.
19:38
>> Loren: Right.
19:39
>> May Young: In fact, you know, Jesus invites us,
19:41
like in Matthew, you know, 11
19:44
to come, you know, all who are weary and
19:47
burdened, and he can give us rest. And so here he's
19:50
inviting us, you know, um, and then we
19:53
have examples throughout Scripture that show, like,
19:56
saints that are struggling and walking out
19:59
doubts and pain, and they're walking it out with
20:02
God. And so, you know, I think
20:05
here, you know, coming back to this, you know,
20:08
giving, uh, voice to a person in pain, it's, like,
20:11
acknowledged. It's in the acknowledgment that we actually find
20:14
healing. So we can't deal with what we don't
20:17
acknowledge. So I liken that. I think even
20:20
in our book. In my book, that word says, you know, like,
20:23
even in, like, physical pain, like, a lot of times,
20:26
if we're not really, um.
20:29
If we're just kind of stoic, like, I'm okay. I'm fine. I
20:32
don't have any Health issues. That doesn't make it go
20:35
away. You know, we still see the doctor,
20:38
but sometimes when we don't, when we don't acknowledge it,
20:41
it's not going to like, miraculously disappear. In fact,
20:43
sometimes it's going to get worse or it's going to fest,
20:46
um, and that we actually have to go to the
20:49
doctor. We have to kind of
20:52
uncover and show the doctor what our
20:55
symptoms are, kind of acknowledging that,
20:58
bringing that out so that we can actually, um,
21:01
know how to that path forward. Because if you don't acknowledge
21:04
it, you're not going to deal with it. You're just going to stuff it away.
21:07
And there's studies that I talk about in the book that
21:10
says people who are stuffing away
21:13
their pain, it's gonna creep up in
21:15
other ways, like things. It's like we think it's gonna
21:18
go away because we don't experience it, but it's
21:21
gonna come up. Maybe not right now. We might have some
21:24
reprieve, but maybe years later. There's people
21:27
that, you know, that I didn't even write in my book. There's. There's one
21:30
woman who, who had this trauma that she had,
21:32
you know, just stuffed away because she didn't want to face it
21:35
in her life. And then later on in life she
21:38
had this like, illness that was debilitating
21:41
and she didn't know what, what happened to her. No, the doctors
21:44
couldn't figure out what was happening, um, until she
21:47
just really had to deal with some of the things,
21:50
this trauma that was in her that was able to help
21:53
her to come to a place of recovery. And it's just like
21:56
we don't even realize, you know, we're
21:58
connected. We're whole body people, you know,
22:01
so our emotions are connected
22:04
to every part of our body too. And so, like,
22:07
you know, um, if there's things
22:10
that we're stuffing away, that doesn't make
22:13
it go away. We actually have to be people
22:16
who deal with it so that it's not just about, you
22:19
know, that apathy. Because at that
22:22
moment, apathy might feel like,
22:25
better, because if we can handle it better,
22:28
but we're not really dealing with something
22:31
and it's just gonna come back on us in the future.
22:33
>> Loren: Uh, so, yeah, really good stuff here. Really
22:36
appreciate your perspectives.
22:38
I want to come back to this. You talk about in
22:41
the book how lament can help communities and churches
22:44
stand alongside those in pain. So
22:47
certainly talk about that. But I'm also intrigued by this idea
22:50
that you pointed out about how
22:53
lament is prophetic in that it ignites
22:55
imagination. I'm thinking about it in this
22:58
way of, you know, certainly we talk
23:01
a lot about the kingdom of God,
23:04
you know, doing, uh, kingdom work,
23:07
uh, helping the kingdom of God.
23:12
Certainly different churches have different theologies
23:15
around how they might understand that in
23:17
distinct implications. Right. But I'm
23:20
intrigued by that idea of a church being
23:24
something that can ignite a community's or people's
23:26
imagination of. Of more to come,
23:29
of better. What else do you want to say about that?
23:33
>> May Young: Yeah, And I think that in
23:36
that too, we have to acknowledge of what we see now. And
23:39
I think that's where lament comes in.
23:42
That we need to not,
23:44
um, cloister ourselves
23:47
away from everything, um, but actually
23:49
recognizing what's happening and
23:54
acknowledging, um, that as a body, um, and
23:56
recognizing too, that as a body,
24:00
that even though individually we may not be
24:03
facing something, um, that we don't
24:05
just exist as individuals in the body, there's a corporate
24:08
body. And, uh, you know,
24:12
one of the things that I think, um, I
24:15
would like to see more in our church today
24:17
is more of a corporate
24:20
mentality, um, in the body of
24:23
Christ. And I think we've become too
24:25
individualistic, um, and
24:29
even in the sense of church attendance,
24:32
you know, people feeling like, I don't need
24:35
church. You know, I'm good just meeting God, or
24:38
I can just watch online.
24:40
>> Loren: Right.
24:40
>> May Young: Why do I need to go to church? Um, and
24:43
so we're really kind of downplaying,
24:46
um, the function of the body. And the Bible is
24:49
very specific, that we're the body of Christ and
24:52
where to stand together. We're not to stand
24:55
aloof when another part is suffering. And
24:57
so I think corporate lament
25:00
helps us to stand together, helps us to
25:03
acknowledge what's happening too, so that we can
25:06
ignite a greater vision for
25:09
the kingdom of God.
25:11
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So good.
25:13
Uh, I want to, uh. Let me ask you this quote. You have this quote.
25:16
Why, uh, is lament
25:19
sometimes the only and most appropriate
25:21
response? Talk more about that if you
25:24
can.
25:25
>> May Young: Sure. Um,
25:28
I think I wrote that in,
25:32
um, highlighting situations of
25:35
evil and justice.
25:38
And I think, uh,
25:41
why it's the only response is because
25:43
during those times, we're trying to reconcile,
25:47
uh, this injustice that we see in the world. And then
25:50
we are trying to reconcile that with who God
25:53
is and his character. You know, like, why is God allowing
25:56
this? And so I think that, you
25:59
know, lament is the only and most appropriate response
26:02
because it helps us to bring it
26:05
before God. Um, because
26:08
it helps us to also, uh, acknowledge
26:11
that we trust God and That we trust God enough to
26:13
cry out to him, and that,
26:16
you know, sometimes evil is so
26:20
appalling and so terrible that only,
26:23
like I say this in my book, is that only the
26:26
infinite goodness, you know, of
26:28
God and power of God can bring
26:31
about this ultimate defeat. You know, and so
26:34
it's God who can do this. And so sometimes we
26:36
feel so powerless, uh, within ourselves when we see these things
26:39
that we lament is acknowledging
26:42
that we in ourselves is,
26:45
uh, we're powerless to do it. But the lament is a cry for
26:48
change. It's naming the evil, it's naming the pain,
26:51
you know, that, that we see all around us. But it's
26:54
also knowing that there's someone we can turn to.
26:57
It's. It's a hopeful engagement with God in
27:00
honest faith, you know, so we're kind of,
27:03
you know, um, bringing this and
27:05
participating and asking and crying out and really
27:08
seeing, you know,
27:11
your kingdom come and your will be done on earth.
27:14
And so here that we can actually pray that. Like,
27:17
because sometimes when we pray that, you know, what do we mean by
27:20
that too? Um, and so when we're
27:23
lamenting, we're saying, your kingdom
27:26
come, Lord. These are the things that we're lamenting. These are the things
27:29
that we're seeing. But Lord, we want your kingdom to
27:32
be done here on earth as it is in heaven. And we're
27:34
lamenting and we're crying out and we're participating
27:37
and we're engaging God, uh, in these
27:40
things as we see them.
27:42
>> Loren: Yeah. Let me read the whole quote for our audience. And I'm
27:45
glad you could pick that up because I didn't give you much context there,
27:48
but this is such a good quote here, a good section.
27:51
Lament is especially highlighted in situations
27:54
of evil and injustice. In such contexts, we are trying
27:56
to reconcile events and actions in this
27:59
unjust world with God's character. Biblical
28:02
lament trusts God enough to cry out.
28:05
Sometimes. Lament is the only and most appropriate
28:08
response to the horrors that take place. Because some
28:10
evils are so appalling that the only
28:13
the infinite goodness and power of God can bring about their ultimate
28:16
defeat. The cry of lament is a
28:19
cry for change. It is a naming the evil and the
28:22
pain that has befallen us in our world.
28:28
So I think that resonates with another question I was going to ask you.
28:30
Is that why is lament
28:34
based on God's character and God's promise?
28:38
>> May Young: Sure. Um, and I think this is kind of
28:41
where it's a little bit different from more of our
28:44
common, uh, understanding. Of lament because common understanding
28:47
of lament is almost like we're just
28:50
wallowing in our pain.
28:52
Yes, wallowing in our sadness.
28:55
But here, lament from a biblical
28:58
standpoint, we can lament because
29:01
of who God is, because of his promises, of
29:04
his character. That we don't lament in
29:06
hopelessness. We actually lament because
29:09
he's a God who is a God of promises. He's
29:12
a good and just God who's merciful. Um,
29:15
and he is the one that has the power to bring the
29:18
change. And so, you know, it's not about us.
29:21
But here we're lamenting because we're lamenting
29:24
to a person, to God, and
29:27
engaging with him and based on who
29:30
he is and his character is so important.
29:33
Um, and I think throughout scripture, we see that too.
29:36
Like, like when people come to God, they acknowledge
29:39
who he is and they recognize that he's
29:42
able to do it. He's able to do the change.
29:45
And that's why we come, and that's why we come
29:48
before God. And that's why lament.
29:52
When I talk about biblical lament and the
29:55
genre of lament, it always starts off
29:57
with an address to God and m.
30:00
That's the very first step. Lament is not just like
30:03
lamenting into a black hole of our sadness.
30:06
It's not just sitting there doing, you know,
30:09
crying our eyes out with nobody to hear us.
30:11
It's actually turning to God, um,
30:14
and the God who has this
30:17
character of who he is and his promises as well.
30:20
>> Loren: Yeah. See, for. For our listeners, this is another reason
30:23
I'd recommend the book, because in the latter half, May kind
30:26
of breaks down different scriptures.
30:29
Talking about the style of lament, which again, I thought
30:32
was very enlightening and engaging.
30:35
I want to ask this because I think this is related
30:38
to God's character and promise that you talk about in the book
30:41
that I think is man, for me at least. Hard
30:43
one to accept. You talk about the faith
30:46
and the challenge to trust God, that healing and
30:49
restoration may not happen in this lifetime
30:52
or on our timetable. Let me set it up this
30:55
way. I was just listening to a story about.
30:58
In my neck of the woods, there's this nonprofit, Christian
31:01
nonprofit, I think, um, Hope House, if I'm remembering
31:03
correctly. And they help. Help teen moms.
31:06
And I remember I, uh, was just at an event where
31:09
the. The founder and CEO told the story of, you
31:12
know, their. Their orderly formation, and
31:15
they're trying to figure out, you know, where they're going to be, where they're going to
31:18
exist, land and all. That, and they, they were donated a piece
31:21
of land and it wasn't zoned correctly, or at least they thought
31:24
so. And they went into
31:27
like the public records and they found that this was a,
31:31
a land given from a church. And actually 25 years
31:34
ago, I mean, it just, it's so amazing.
31:36
25 years ago the church had zoned
31:39
the land in the
31:42
anticipation and desire to build some kind of maternity
31:45
home for young moms. Right.
31:47
>> May Young: Amazing.
31:48
>> Loren: I mean, right?
31:49
>> May Young: Yeah. And amazing.
31:52
>> Loren: There's many people probably who, in their lifetime
31:55
who probably thought, boy,
31:57
25 years has passed, we're not getting to
32:00
see this vision come to be. And then sure enough,
32:04
25, 30 years later, like there exists now
32:07
a home and a mission for m. These
32:10
teen moms. I mean, it's incredible.
32:12
>> May Young: Mm, mhm. Mm
32:14
mhm. Yeah, well, you know, I
32:16
think so, I guess. Are you saying like having
32:19
a vision that's beyond ourselves?
32:21
>> Loren: Well, like the trusting, the timetable is not her own,
32:24
you know?
32:25
>> May Young: Mhm. Yeah. And I think that's really important. You know,
32:28
I think. And what I say is like, lament
32:31
is not like a silver bullet. It's not here to like
32:34
bring about, you know, what we want. This is not
32:36
about like helping us just to get
32:40
another way for us to see God as a genie in the
32:42
bottle. This is not, that's not what I'm saying for
32:45
lament. Lament is actually helping us
32:48
to bring, uh, to get to a place of greater
32:51
hope, a greater resilience,
32:54
um, even if we don't see
32:56
it on our own timetable. And I really, I think
32:59
about this with like the prophet Habakkuk,
33:03
like here, you know, in the beginning of his
33:06
book, you see that he's coming and he's lamenting the
33:09
situation of what's happening. He's like, all this evil
33:12
is happening God, like, what's going on? You know,
33:14
you're not a God who can stand evil. And then God's like,
33:17
okay, I'm gonna bring justice and I'm gonna bring
33:20
it through the Babylonians. And he's like, what, you call
33:23
that justice? You know, and he's like
33:26
dealing with God because he feel like the Babylonians are
33:29
worse than his own people. Like, how could God use these
33:32
wicked people to judge his own people? And so he's
33:35
grappling with these things and dealing with God
33:37
and has these questions. And
33:40
what I think is so amazing is that,
33:43
you know, God never says, okay, you know what,
33:46
you're right, I'm not going to use the Babylonians, okay? You
33:49
know, but what you find is that the
33:52
prophet himself at, uh, in chapter three at the end,
33:55
comes to a place that even if, you know, he doesn't see
33:58
anything, he says, I'm still going to trust
34:01
you. You know, I'm still gonna, you know. And it
34:04
was about, uh, a place of surrender
34:07
and a place. And probably in that process
34:10
of his lament, he was able to see
34:13
that God is trustworthy, that God is just.
34:16
That God is who he says he is. And in the
34:19
midst of that, he's able to say, God, you
34:22
know, my hope is not dependent on
34:25
what I see or this kind of, uh,
34:28
you know, what God is gonna bring about in this
34:30
way. But his hope was really in God
34:33
alone and what he's gonna do. And so no matter what happens,
34:37
he was able, through his surrender, to
34:40
find resilience. And I think that's just such a beautiful
34:43
way to see that. Even in lament, you know, it's not
34:46
always just about coming to a place where
34:49
we feel like, you know, we get the
34:52
prayers that we want answered or we want the outcome
34:55
that we have answered. But sometimes it's really about
34:58
drawing close to God, trusting God,
35:01
finding strength, finding hope, finding
35:04
resilience in his presence. So that,
35:07
you know, whatever the outcome, you know,
35:10
this is. So this is where I say, you know, hope is.
35:13
It's. It's meant. Is to bring us greater hope. It's not
35:16
to answer our prayers the way that we want it
35:19
to be answered. And that's not what I'm trying to say in
35:21
this book at all. And I feel. What's
35:24
really interesting for me is, like, a lot of times that
35:27
I've talked to different people who've gone through
35:30
really difficult times or difficult suffering,
35:34
uh, after they've come out of it, they tell me, they go, you
35:37
know, what I miss the most is that closeness
35:40
that I had with God in the midst of that. And I
35:43
can testify that for myself too.
35:46
His presence was so real and so
35:48
close at those moments,
35:51
um, that it wasn't just about, oh,
35:54
you know, I'm going to come see better days here and there.
35:57
But it's about, wow, God is with me
36:00
and he's going to care for me. He's going to take care of it. I may
36:03
not know what it's going to look like, but I'm going to trust him,
36:06
um, and it may not happen on my timetable, it may not
36:09
even happen in my lifetime, but I'm going to trust him,
36:12
um, in this and acknowledging, you know, that he
36:15
sees our pain, that he's There he is our
36:18
healer. He is the one who cares for us and knows the
36:21
very best. And so, um, recognizing
36:24
those things. And sometimes it may not be the
36:27
outcome that we want, but that doesn't mean there's a loss of
36:30
hope in there as well.
36:32
>> Loren: Yeah. I appreciate what you said about
36:35
the answer to prayer not necessarily being what
36:38
we wanted or no answer at all. I'm thinking
36:40
of your quote on page 105.
36:43
Remember, silence does not equate to
36:46
absence. God is still there.
36:49
M. I think that's so powerful, speaking even
36:52
what you just said there.
36:55
>> May Young: Yeah. Yeah. I was listening to
36:59
a, uh, sermon more recently about how
37:01
sometimes. So I think there's twofold in God's silence. I
37:04
think, um, first, you know, in
37:07
our silence, when in God's silence, sometimes
37:10
that actually causes us to press in deeper
37:13
to God, in a deeper engagement. And
37:15
sometimes maybe that's what God wants in that silence, to have
37:18
us to come and seek him more deeply,
37:21
um, in that way, um, more
37:23
passionately. Another way I think about, like,
37:26
the silence of God is, uh, I was listening. This is where I was listening
37:29
to a sermon, talking about how it's in times of
37:32
testing that there's silence. So, like, they gave the example of
37:35
how, like, when you're in a classroom, the professor
37:38
or the teacher is speaking and teaching,
37:41
but when there's a test, the teacher is silent,
37:44
and the student is answering with what they learned,
37:47
you know, and so sometimes, maybe the things that we've been
37:50
learning, God is asking us to,
37:53
you know, put it to the test, you know, the things that
37:56
we've learned about who he is, to trust that.
37:59
Um, so I think I put, you
38:02
know, what. What we see in the light, we
38:05
need to remember in the dark, you know?
38:08
Um, and so when we're walking through that
38:11
valley, we need to remember the things that we've
38:14
learned, you know, um, on the
38:16
mountaintop.
38:18
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is really
38:21
good conversation. I hope folks can
38:24
just get a taste for the book again.
38:26
It's Walking with God through the Valley,
38:29
Recovering the Purpose of Biblical Lament. Again,
38:32
really recommend it. I really appreciate reading it, and I
38:35
hope, uh, it's been a blessing to others.
38:37
Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing
38:40
questions.
38:44
All right, we're back with Dr. Mae Young. Thank you so much for
38:47
this conversation. Uh, we always tell folks
38:50
for these closing questions, you're welcome to take them as
38:52
seriously or not as you'd like to. So
38:55
if you're pope for a day, what would you want to do
38:58
with that day.
39:01
>> May Young: Um, if I was a pope for a day, I
39:04
think I would use
39:07
it to call people. And this is something that I,
39:11
I just alluded to a little bit earlier, um,
39:14
that we have become too individualized. And
39:17
I would, uh, call people back to
39:19
recognize the body of the church, that we're the body
39:22
of Christ and we belong to one another. Um,
39:25
and not to, like, phone
39:28
it in or zoom it in, but
39:30
to become connected into
39:33
the church. And one of the things that I talk about,
39:36
even in my book, is that loneliness is a huge
39:40
kind of, uh, thing that people are struggling with and
39:43
people are feeling. And so, you know,
39:45
this isolation has brought to a greater
39:48
sense of loneliness in the hearts of people. And so really calling
39:51
people back to a community and
39:54
recognizing, um, the church,
39:57
the body of Christ, and the importance of that.
40:00
>> Loren: Um, the next question, ah,
40:03
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want
40:06
to meet or bring back to life? I'm also curious,
40:09
related to this topic. What
40:12
are some historical figures, whether biblical or
40:14
historically Christian, who you recognize as
40:17
practicing this practice of lament?
40:21
>> May Young: Well, definitely. So I guess it
40:24
would be like David, because
40:27
from the book of Psalms. So
40:30
I, um, would definitely see him as a person that I would
40:33
like to talk to about lament, just
40:36
because he is, ah, an author of many of the
40:39
Psalms, um, and to ask him about
40:41
his thoughts about when he penned these two
40:44
laments and his own, you know, process.
40:47
I think I ended the book too, where I talked about
40:50
how it says that David, uh,
40:53
strengthened himself in the Lord.
40:55
And what did that look like? Was that really lament,
40:58
you know, when he was doing that, you know, finding
41:01
strength in the Lord, Uh, the other
41:04
person would be like, you know,
41:06
um, job, you know, as he's
41:09
lamenting his own situation.
41:12
Um, and what for
41:15
him, you know, like, I really appreciate his
41:18
honesty in dealing with, you know, his
41:20
situation and his pain before God
41:23
as well as, like, Habakkuk,
41:26
uh, you know, just some of the people, and
41:29
probably someone that I really,
41:31
um, really
41:33
admire and I really, really learn a lot from his
41:36
writings is Henri Nouwen,
41:39
which I did quote. Um, he just
41:42
thinks so deeply about so many issues.
41:45
Um, I really appreciate his thoughts on these things
41:48
as well.
41:49
>> Loren: Yeah.
41:51
Thinking about our current time and place, what do you think history
41:53
will remember from our current time
41:56
and place?
41:58
>> May Young: Well, I don't know from our current time and
42:01
place, but maybe like within our generation for
42:04
sure is the pandemic. COVID
42:06
19. I think that's gonna be
42:10
remembered. I think it just. And
42:13
that shutdown of the world
42:15
that had happened. Like, that's
42:18
unprecedented, you know.
42:20
Um, so I. You know
42:23
what I remember? Yeah.
42:25
>> Loren: Let me ask this vame, because I just saw this
42:28
somewhere on social media. This idea
42:31
that there's a thought that
42:34
our society right now is dealing with unprocessed
42:37
grief and pain from the COVID
42:40
pandemic. You write about lament. Do you
42:43
think we need to lament more or we should have
42:46
lamented more? The pandemic?
42:49
Like, do you think there's this so rush to get back to
42:51
normal?
42:54
>> May Young: You know what? Maybe I don't
42:57
know what can be done in terms of like,
43:00
you know, after the fact in some sense of like.
43:03
I don't know if it was like. I don't want to say we should have lamented
43:06
more, but. But maybe there are
43:08
certain things that people could think about.
43:11
One thing is interesting is I feel like
43:14
the younger generation is dealing with a lot more anxiety.
43:17
>> Loren: Yeah.
43:18
>> May Young: Um. And not knowing how to,
43:22
you know, process a lot of things and
43:25
a lot of them even attributing some
43:28
of the things that happened during the COVID
43:30
pandemic during their formative years.
43:33
Um, and so, you know, there
43:36
might be things there to actually think about instead of just
43:38
getting back into life as it is
43:42
to recognize what could be part of
43:45
that that is contributing to the anxiety. Um,
43:48
that's there as well. So, you know,
43:51
I think there's definitely things for us to
43:54
really, uh, be more
43:57
reflective about. Perhaps, you know,
44:00
this is a question of, you know, as a society as a whole,
44:03
maybe we're, um, very do
44:06
oriented, very busy, very,
44:08
um, and so that we don't have time for
44:11
reflection. And, uh,
44:14
maybe this is good if we spent
44:16
more time in reflection about that. And I think sometimes people
44:19
don't even know where to start. You know, they're just.
44:23
Because they're just always on the go. It's almost like when people
44:26
are always on the go, when they have time to stop,
44:28
they don't even know what to do with themselves. And so maybe
44:31
this is a time of, you know, how do
44:34
we sit before God? How do we sit and
44:37
have that time of reflection before him?
44:40
>> Loren: Yeah. I feel like that's a theme we didn't even explore
44:43
enough in this conversation that to lament you almost
44:46
have to stop and not just plow through.
44:49
>> May Young: That's right.
44:50
>> Loren: Everything.
44:51
>> May Young: Yep. Yeah. And that's where it's hard. I think people
44:54
don't want to stop
44:56
and. But sometimes when things are so debilitating,
44:59
you have no choice but to
45:02
stop. You know, yeah.
45:04
>> Loren: Okay, last, uh, last question
45:07
here. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
45:11
>> May Young: Well, I, I think some things that I've been hearing
45:14
about is like, uh, revival that's taking place
45:17
in high schools, in college campuses.
45:21
Um, I just think that's so encouraging.
45:24
And my hopes is that I want to see
45:27
the Lord move powerfully
45:30
in this next generation, um, and to
45:33
use them to bring about
45:36
his work, uh, here,
45:38
um, and across the nation and around the world.
45:41
And so it's really amazing too, because I have the
45:44
privilege of teaching, uh, college students teach at
45:47
Taylor University, and just seeing
45:50
their passion and knowing, um, just
45:53
their call and what God is calling them to do and
45:55
just. It's just such a privilege to
45:58
see that and, uh, to see what God's doing in the next
46:01
generation.
46:03
>> Loren: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time.
46:06
I really appreciate the conversation, your perspectives.
46:09
Do you want to share how folks can connect with you?
46:11
Get a copy of the book, all that stuff?
46:14
>> May Young: Sure. Um, well,
46:16
uh, right now I am
46:19
currently having a website put together.
46:22
Um, that'll come up shortly, but, uh,
46:25
it's
46:26
mayoung.com.
46:30
it's not up yet, but it'll be up shortly.
46:33
Uh, but in the meantime, you can find
46:36
my book on Amazon or Christian
46:39
Book Distributors or anywhere.
46:42
Um, IVP website as well.
46:45
>> Loren: Yeah.
46:45
>> May Young: Um, and so you can
46:48
get a copy of the book that way.
46:50
>> Loren: Well, it'll be a few weeks before this comes out, so hopefully listeners,
46:54
uh, be on lookout. Look for
46:56
May Young. Right. You said dot com. Hopefully
46:59
be up and live around. Maybe we can get that timing
47:02
right.
47:03
>> May Young: Yeah, that sounds great.
47:06
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the
47:08
conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So
47:11
may God's peace be with you.
47:12
>> May Young: You. Thank you.
47:21
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
47:24
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
47:27
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
47:29
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47:32
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47:34
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