Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S6 E8 _ Frozen Fear_ The Butcher Baker of Alaska - Robert Hansen - Part 4

Transcript

S6 E8 _ Frozen Fear_ The Butcher Baker of Alaska - Robert Hansen - Part 4 · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to True Crime and One Time. I'm Terry and
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: I'm Lama. Tonight we are uncorking the truth one of
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the darkest crimes and breaking it down together with you.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: One case, one conversation, and one or maybe two glasses
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: of wine. It's taking a job. It's time to get
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: comfortable and double check those rocks before we distarted. So
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: let's take a sip and dive in. Oh, there we go.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: That's how you run a show. Good evening, everyone, Happy Thursday.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: We are here for another episode of The Butcher Baker
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: of Alaska. Lami here. As you can see, Terry is
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: now with us tonight. Unfortunately she couldn't make it, so
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: it's just me. It's just gonna get us hanging out.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not even drinking anything tonight. I just got a
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: cocin a a can of cranberry spread. So this is
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit different of a show than you're used
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: to tonight. But hello everybody, Welcome in as you come in.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Don't forget that. If you're watching us on YouTube, please
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: hit that like button, subscribe to our channel, and hit
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the notification bell so you never miss when we go
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: live or drop an episode. A cocin a smile. That's right,
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: that's a can of coke. I'm not a coke decorator
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: like Robert Hanson. Now, if you're listening to this as
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: a pod, please download, leave a rating or review, as
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: it helps our little pod get noticed. Like it's a
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: pretty big deal, so if you could do that, that
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: would be great. If you would enjoy visuals generally over
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: here on YouTube when we record these, which is well
• 2:04
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• 2:06
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• 2:09
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• 2:22
  Speaker 1: click the joined button and pick which tier works best
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: for you. Hello, Spetty, Hope you're doing well, Thank you
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: for joining us. Happy to CEO now. Tonight is part
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: four of our Frozen Fear the Butcher Baker of Alaska series,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: where we are diving deep into infamous serial killer Robert Hansen,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: his endless number of victims who we refuse to let
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: be forgotten, and how all of it could have been
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: stopped numerous times. Now, the state of Alaska has a
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: lot of blood on its hands, my opinion, and we're
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: here to shed a light on all of it. So warning,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: there will be lots of r antson Percy words, and
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: feel free to leave your own because this case doesn't
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: make you mad. I don't know what will. I don't
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: know what will. So yes, there you go. Every time
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: you hit the like button of Lama earns its gavel
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: and Terry gets showered with pink glitters. So do the
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: right thing. Good evening, Pam, Good evening. There's Lady and Gray,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: so well, hello, hello, and welcome. Now, as I said,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not actually drinking anything tonight, and I don't know
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: it's probably afterwards, I'm gonna be like, yep, probably should
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: have done that, but I got a busy day of
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: shows tomorrow, so I can't get too carried away. Now,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: if you are just stumbling on this episode and you
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: haven't listened to our other Robert Hanson bridge, please go
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: watch it after we're done. It's pretty crazy. You may
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: think you know everything there is to know about Robert
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Hanson his crimes in Alaska. It gets talked about a
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: lot But what doesn't get talked about is the whole
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: decade and a half before he finally gets caught in
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: all the shenanigans that took place in Alaska that could
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: have stopped him over and over and over again. It
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: is so infuriating, isn't it, Stetty, It's so angry, and
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: get hulk angry over it. But in case this is
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: your first time, let me give you a quick recap
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: of you will of where we left off. So by
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: the end of nineteen seventy two, the state of Alaska
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: believed that they had solved the problem of Robert Hanson.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: To the parole board, he was a success story, and
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: to his psychiatrist, he was a patient making progress. To
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: his neighbors on he was just Bob and his other
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: friends who we won't name yet, but you all know
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: I feel about them. But he was just Bob, the
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: guy with the stutter, who made the best pastries in
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: town and never missed a Sunday at church. He had
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: such a great reputation is respectable. Apparently you heard that
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: superhero plug there. Yes, we'll definitely get to that later. Now,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: the system had looked at the violence he inflicted on
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Susan Hepperd and Patty Roberts and decided that it was
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: a disassociated fluke, as it usually is when somebody uses
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: a gun to either attempt to or actually kidnap and
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: assault women. It's just it's just a fluke. Guy's nothing
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: to see here. No, no, no. They had prescribed him
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: therapy and a short stint in a half way house,
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: and then then they handed him his life back. That's right,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: in case you missed it. What he got like five
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: years and he was in a half house in six months. Yes,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: for kidnapping, assault with a deadly weapon, and a rape.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Oh that's right. He took complete do and didn't get
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: charges for any of those ridiculous Oh it makes you
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: so mad. But while the authorities were checking boxes on
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: his parole forms, a silence was beginning to settle over Anchorage.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: In the mid seventies, Anchorage was a city in the
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: middle of an identity crisis. The trans Alaskan Pipeline was
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: pumping billions of dollars into the economy, bringing a flood
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: of transient workers and dreamers and runaways to the Lost Frontier.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: The seventies where a wild time everywhere. It's what I've
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: learned just what a crazy time to be alive. I'll
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: tell you what now. It was a city of neon lights,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: twenty four hour bars, and a bustling Fourth Avenue strip
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: where a woman could disappear for a week and no
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: one would think to call the police. It was, quite frankly,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: the perfect environment for a predator who had just learned
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: that he was effectively invincible. I mean, he had no
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: reason to not think that because of how much he
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: had gotten away with, because he was a man who
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: I guess had a job in a family. I don't know.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense still. Now, Robert Hanson had
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: spent his six months of rehabilitation learning exactly where the
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: seems of the law were. I'm sorry, that was nine
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: months of rehabilitation, my apologies, nine months. He knew that
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: if he targeted the women the system didn't value like
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: Patty Roberts, which I strongly disagree with, if he targeted
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: the runaways, the dancers, the working girls, the police wouldn't
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: look twice at a respectable business owner. No, he had
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: traded his meek bob mask for something much more durable.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: And that's total nominated and oh whatever you know the word. Okay,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: I've had a day anonymity. You know what I feel like.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: I feel like finding nemo when they try to say
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: in amity. That's how that word makes me feel. Hello, Greg, Hello,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: good evening to you, sir. I hope you're doing well, lady,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: and Gray says. The seventies were great, especially the music,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: except for disco. As we learned about, Alama learns about
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: some people had problems with that. No anyway, sorry, I digress.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: As we enter this chapter of the story, the narrative, though,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: begins to shift. We are no longer talking about a
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: man who gets caught. We're talking about the years when
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: the missing reports and the unsolved murders started to pile
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: up in the back of filing cabinets. We're talking about
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: the era where Robert Hanson stopped being a clumsy kidnapper
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: and started becoming more of a master of the hunt.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: But before we can understand the disappearances of the mid seventies,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: we have to look back at the shadows, because the
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: baker might have been on parole, but the butcher had
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: likely already claimed his first victims while the police were
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: still looking the other way. So tonight Let's start with
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the shadow that loomed over his nineteen seventy two sentencing,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: and that is the case of Celia Beth van Zanten. Now,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: as we covered in episode two, we briefly talked about
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: her because I knew we were going to come back.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: So but in case you forgot, Beth was an eighteen
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: year old who vanished on December twenty second, nineteen seventy one,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: just three days after Patty Roberts was kidnapped, assaulted, and
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: raped by Robert Hansen. Just three days, my friends, with
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: very interesting parallels to one another. Now, Best's body was
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: discovered on Christmas Day at McHugh Creek by two brothers
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: out to film the scenery. The scene they found was
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: a haunting blueprint of the predator that Hanson was becoming. Now,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: this picture here of McHugh Creek I had found. This
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: is where they did find Beth's body. It would have
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: been during the winter time, but as you can see
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: these clifsest terrain is just not friendly for somebody running
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: away with no bottom clothes or shoes on. There is
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: where she ended up being found. Now, Beth's wrists were
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: bound with speaker wire and she had been slashed across
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the chest with a knife, and a final heroic act
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: of defiance, she had plunged down a fifty foot snowy
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: slope with her hands tied, attempting to escape into the darkness.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And I think they mean the slope there to the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: far right, I think is where they were implying that
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: they found her over there. Now, she didn't die from
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: being slashed by a knife. Instead, she died from the
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: brutal Alaskan cold, just yards from safety. Found near her
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: body were tufts of yellow tissue paper, the specific kind
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: used in you guessed professional bakeries to separate pastries. Will
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: all be g willickers. This sounds like somebody we might
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: know might be behind this, if you ask me now.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: The denial Robert Hanson maintained regarding Beth van Zanten was
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: one of his most rigid, even at the end, when
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: the bodies were piling up and the confessions from him
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: were flowing. He drew a line at Beth. But for
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: the troopers, that line was blurred by a series of chilling,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: near identical signatures, And particularly one that you're going to
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: hear about later is the binding. Well, we briefly touched
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: because he bound Patty with shoelaces that he had in
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: his pocket, and now Beth is bound by speaker wire,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: and in a few episodes from now you're going to
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: find that he bound somebody else with guitar wire. Basically
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: anything he could find he would use to bind women.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Less common ways of doing that. So just let you
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: know now, the parallels between Hanson's admitted crimes and the
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: unsolved murder of Beth van Santen are very haunting because
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I don't see how they're not related. Beth had taken
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: was taken to the same rugged, remote terrain where Hanson
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: took Patty Roberts, both victims again three days apart. Both
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: victims had their hands bound behind their backs, which is
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: a very specific power play Hansen favored to render a
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: victim helpless while maintaining control of the one he would
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: do every single time. In both cases, the victims were
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: stripped of their clothes to prevent them from running into
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: the subarctic cold, and their bras were slashed or used
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: as a point of intimidation. You remember him asking Patty, hey,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: can I rip your brawl off? And She's like, m No,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: you cannot do that I would not like that, thank
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: you very much. Bras are expensive. She didn't say that,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: but it was pretty much there. Now, perhaps most damn
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: is that Beth lived within one mile of the apartment
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: belonging to the real estate secretary Susan Heppard. We know
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: from Hanson's own admissions that he spent hours cruising this
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: specific neighborhood, scouting for targets that fit his type, which
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know if he actually has a specific type.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: We'll get more into that later. It seemed more so
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: that when he fixated on something someone that was his type.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: I guess it seems quite impulsive at the beginning. But now,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: if the evidence was so striking, if the evidence was
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: so striking, Mama, why did Beth van Zan's case become
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: an enduring mystery rather than Hanson's first murder conviction. It's
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: a good question, but the answer lies in investigation that
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: fragmented almost immediately. If you if you have listened to
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: all of our other episodes, do you know that the
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: investigation investigators are they leave a lot to be desired. Okay,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: a lot, I know, right, Lady and Gray, they were
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: neighbors without connection to each other, Get out of here,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I know right now. On the night that Wednessing December
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: twenty second, nineteen seventy one, the who's there? Oh it's
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: a tiny Hi, a man. Hello, you sound like a robot.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: A robot.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: It just happened.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry if.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Still sounds like.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it keeps doing it. I don't know why. Hello, everyone,
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry that.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Maybe it was me. Maybe I need to leave.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there is better. It's not perfect, Okay, I did nothing.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: I did not.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: There must be a loose wire or something.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I think there might be, or it's just the story
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: of my life today, or it's Alaska being like I
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: don't like what you've been saying about us, so we're
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: just gonna mess with her microphone. I'm pretty sure.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Well the is Alaska.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Uh huh, Alaska is Alaska? Yeah right, Oh my gosh,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: Well we solved that industry better than they did.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: That's Alaska's not on my.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Places. Do not what we've learned so far. Mm hmm.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: It's elbow feats fault. Yes, yes it is. Now okay,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: let me start that over, because apparently I was a robot. Now.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: On the night Beth went missing December twenty second, nineteen
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: seventy one. The Van Zanten sibling household on Nick Avenue
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: was a typical scene of young people at home made
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: for TV. Movie was on the screen. There was a
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: cloud of marijuana smoke in the air, as it was
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: teenagers in the seventies and the anticipation of Christmas was
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: just three days away. Now. Because her brothers were watching,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: the whole world is watching, which is ironic. I think
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: that's what they were watching. Investigators were later to were
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: later able to pinpoint her exact her exact time leaving
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: the house down to the commercial breaks, because that's how
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: TV worked back in the day. Now, from eight thirty
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: to eight forty five pm, they said, Beth decides that
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: she wants a soda. She tells her brothers she has
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: a babysitting gig later and to tell their cousin Greg
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: to wait for her. Now, at eight forty five to
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: eight fifty five pm, Beth is spotted by a witness
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: walking towards the Bilo store. The store closed at nine pm,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: by the way, so she was in a race against
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: the clock to get there, and I imagine I don't
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: know if she was smoking weed, but she probably really
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: needed that soda. Now at nine pm, a neighbor places
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: her on Northern Lights Boulevard. This is the last time
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: that she is seen alive. And you are going to
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: hear that Northern Lights Boulevard street, which is kind of
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: a main street, but it is a very big deal
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: in the store. You know who loves that street, Robert
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Hanson loves it. Loves it.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Jerk.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: He is a jerk. We hate that guy. Now. The
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: reason the hunt for Beth didn't begin immediately was a
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: tragic series of assumptions made by her siblings. In a
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: household of young adults living largely on their own, coming
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and going from the house at all hours was the
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: norm for them, and because Beth had mentioned a babysitting
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: job for a friend of her cousin, Greg, the brothers
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: assumed Greg had simply intercepted her on the road and
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: driven her straight to the job. They had no reason
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: to think that anything was wrong. Then there's also the
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: fact that it's only a few days before Christmas, so
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: the holiday chaos and the separate residents with the parents
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: living in a different house, the lack of communication. It
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: didn't immediately scream dangers or to anyone, And also it's
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the seventies. You couldn't just randomly call people at any
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: point in time. You needed to know where they were
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: to cool them on the phone. So this didn't raise
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: any alarms. Now. It wasn't until December twenty fourth, two
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: full days later, that the family realized that Beth hadn't
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: just stayed overnight at a friend's or gone to her
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: parents' house. By then, the trail was not just cold,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: it was literally frozen. It was literally frozen. I would
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: never make it in Alaska in the wintertime, girl, me neither.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, you do the Michigan weather, and that's bad enough.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: That's as close to Alaska weather that I want.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Right, we're talking southern Michigan night right, not even the
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Upio No, thank you. Now, what makes this walk she
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: took so significant in the context of Robert Hanson is
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the geography, as we said, Northern Lights, Boulevard, main artery
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: of the city, and Hanson admits that he was a
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: troller of patroller meant something different back then, but of
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: that street. So here is a very good connection of
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: why it might be him. Also, he literally kidnapped and
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: assaulted somebody, a woman three days later, But then he
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: let her go, and it part of me wonders, and
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about this later, is if he is the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: one responsible for best murder? Did that happen because it
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: wasn't She wasn't as and I hate saying this, because
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Patty was not being cooperative. She was surviving, you know,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: so she was being cooperative to survive. Was was Beth
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: not doing that? And that's why it ended up the
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: way that it did. That's if you guys can decide
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: at the end of this episode whether or not you
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: think Robert is responsible for the murder of bethman Sam
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: because he refuses to claim. Yeah, there's quite a few
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: things that I hey refuses to claim and it's like,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: you know, the whole Oakham's razor, right, the simplest answer
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: is usually the correct one, And the simplest answer to
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: all of these is that it's probably robberies. Now, Beth
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: was bundled up, likely focused on the nine pm closing
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: time of the Bilo, you know, and her guard is
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: down in her own neighborhood. She walked the streets all
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the time. It wasn't some big thing. I mean, it
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: wasn't even to our own brothers, you know.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: I mean, most people feel comfortable walking in their neighborhoods.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and it's a main street. You know,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: there is traffic. Her house faced a neighborhood away from
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: but she had to walk on the main street to
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: get there. So I would be like, oh, at least
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: if something happens, cars are going to see me right.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: For a hunter like Canton, though, a young woman walking
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: alone at night was an opportunity. He had already practiced
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: seizing numerous times before. By the way, your discord just
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: kids gone.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: Let me just mute that.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Now. While the brothers were getting high, an act that
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: might have made them, you know, a little less observant
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: or more prone to losing track of time. The family's
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: core was deeply rooted in the Mormon Church. I know.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: It surprised me as well. Now. This would also later
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: play into the investigation, as police initially struggled to reconcile
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the respectable family image with the reality of a house
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: of a house full of young men on their own. Oh,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: here we go again, with the words respectable and bias
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: and all of the fun stuff. That's right, lady, and Gray,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: he does he has no problem claimings the prostitute, the
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: drug users, but denies anyone that wasn't one of those people,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: which I don't believe him. He's a liar, layer who lies. Now.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: More importantly, the mention of cousin Greg babysit job became
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: the pivot for the really investigation. Oh is that what
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: you think? Ginger? Okay, She's like, yes, I agree. This
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: guy sucks. He did it? See figure it out.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Ginger doesn't like him either, Ginger just the best.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: We all love Ginger. Now, the police would spend critical
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: hours looking into Greg and the friend Beth was supposed
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: to babysit for now. Greg's life was a series of
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: displacements and hardships that made him a vulnerable target for
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: police scrutiny. His background was marked by a mix of
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: racial tension, institutional failure, and personal tragedy.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Frankly, I Greg, I feel bad for Greg.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: I feel bad for Greg too, Like you'll all see why, yeah,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you will. Separated from his biological family at the age
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: of three due to tuberculosis, which his mother quickly died from,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Greg carried a deep resentment towards his father for not
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: keeping the family together. This troubled youth narrative is often
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: catnet for investigators looking for a profile of rage. And
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not. Okay, I don't
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: think this is one of those times. Now. He was
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: then sent away to a Bureau of Indian Affairs school
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: in Oklahoma, where he was a victim of severe violence
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: and not a perpetrator of it. If you are not
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: familiar with the story of Bureaus of Indian Affairs in
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: everything that we as a country did to those people
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: and to their children.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Just got the chills just thinking of some of the
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: stories I've read.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Disgusting, disgusting. Now and listen, there was it was rife
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: with abuse there. That's not there's not up for debate, Okay,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: it was. It's not up for debate. What those children.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: He has a whole page on it.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's bad, it's very very A broken jaw and
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: subsequent plastic surgery left him with a face that had
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: never been the same, a physical trait that could be
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: misinterpreted as rough or suspicious by witnesses. I mean, you can't.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: You can't control your face, you know, but it does
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: play into how people perceive you with their first impressions.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Who don't know anything about you. Sorry, Now, Greg was
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: gifted when he was school and he really had a
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: serious career, serious career potential in future ahead of him.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: He was an award winning architectural artist. He had a
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: future in drafting that was unfortunately erased by a bro
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: of n affairs foulub How convenient if you know anything
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: about them, go figure. So instead of a scholarship and
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: a career, Greg returned to the pressures of Anchorage in
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. So he has not had a very
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: good upbringing or normal upbringing all, simply because he was
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: born as a native. Such a gross time. Now, Kathleen
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: van Zanten, Best's mother provided the kind of internal friction,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: family friction that police often use to build a case.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: By pointing to the poor arrangement of the bedrooms in
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Best's sudden distaste for dating, Kathleen read about in her journal.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: She inadvertently painted Greg as a potential aggressor because listen,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: you usually is someone you know. Okay, it usually is
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: someone that's close to you or the family. But also
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: we have an act of serial predator running around and
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: we know this well.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: But see, you know they didn't know that well.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: They didn't know that, right, The family didn't know that,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: but the investigators knew that. There's no secret.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: And she lost her daughter, So yeah, oh right, she's
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: trying to run anybody that can be accountable.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: On Christmas Day. How awful now, she said. The fact
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: that Beth and Greg had adjacent bedrooms on the same
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: floor were causing tensions between the two. Kathleen also saw
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: a lifelong pattern of conflict between Beth and Greg, and
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: she feared that it had finally escalated into something violent,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: throwing the fact that it's a strict Mormon household and
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: the concerns about modesty or Greg getting out of line
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: carried significant weight, suggesting that there was a motive for
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: an assault. Now. Eloise Wi Boda, Kathleen's sister and Beth's aunt,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: who had raised Greg since he was three, offered a
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: completely different perspective because she didn't see a creditor in Greg. Instead,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: she saw a traumatized young man who was being crushed
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: by the weight of an accusation he couldn't fight. He
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: also knew that as a native, it already put a
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: huge target on his back because of the way that
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: they were being treated by everyone, and he had been
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: treated that way his whole life.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Eloise witnessed Greg's shock and grief upon hearing of Best's death,
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: and she said it was a genuine emotional response that
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: stood in contrast to the cold calculation of a killer.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Greg admitted he had been out drinking the night Beth
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: had vanished, which is going to come back to bite
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: him in the ass. And also, remember people were allowed
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: to drink at a much younger age in the seventies.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: So in case you're like, whoa, they're ages, it's fine now.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Besides what minor I mean, who doesn't drink? Well, I'm
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: just saying they probably would have done it, whether they
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: could have or not.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: But they definitely could have now. As I said, in
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, a young Native man with a shaky
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: alibi and a history of drinking was a very easy
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: target for law enforcement. And we all know how they
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: are with their biases. And Greg knew it. You know,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: his fear wasn't necessarily the guilt of a murderer, but
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: the terror of a man who knew the system was
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: built to find him guilty. Eloise also maintained that Greg
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: had never shown own any sexual problems, directly challenging the
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: theory that he would have attacked his foster cousin. Now,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: the conflicting perspectives of the two sisters created a black
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: hole in the investigation. The more through it though, But yeah,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: oh my gosh, right, not.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Only do you have the mom blaming the cousin or
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: pointing the cousin out, now you have the mom and
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: her sister going at it because yeah, it's just awful.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: It is awful. It does not get better, friends, No,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: it does not get better. Now, the conflicting perspectives of
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: the two sisters. Okay, the more the troopers dug into
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the family dynamics, the further they moved away from the
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: old Seaward Highway and the makeman who was actively trolling
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: it at the time. Now, while the lease were debating
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: best letters and the modesty of her living arrangements, they
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: were missing the forensic reality of the crime. The speaker
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: wire and the yellow tissue paper didn't point to a
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: spur of the moment family argument. They pointed more to
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: a prepared kit. They pointed to someone who had been
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: planning a hunt. In my opinion, now, on December twenty sixth,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, less than twenty four hours after Beth
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: was found in the snow. The pressure on Greg reached
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: a boiling point at the fly By Night garage where
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Sergeant Walter Gilmour and.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: They got deleted.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: Something did get deleted. Well, anyway, he's surely oh is
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: it the name roly Port? Okay? When Sergeant Walter Gilmour
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: and Rolyport his real name, by the way, And I
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: didn't know what he looked like until I saw this,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: And that is exactly how I thought a man named
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Rolyport would look like. That's his real name. They went
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: there looking for a confession. They demanded that Greg give
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: them a step by step account of December twenty second,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: but Greg's memory wasn't the greatest. Greg admitted to them
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: that he had spent the night of best disappearance in
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: a heavy alcoholic case in nineteen seventy one Anchorage. This
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: was a common enough vice, right, everybody's doing it. What
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: else is there to do in the middle of December
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: in Alaska. But in a murder investigation, it was a
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: red flag for a blackout or a convenient excuse to
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: hide a crime. I mean, yeah, now, Investigator Rolyport. Oh,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Were you going to say something?
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: No, I'm just flabbercasted, that's all.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, right now. Investigator roly Port watched Greg closely
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: and noted that he was quivering and crying. I mean, okay,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: as one does when they're family member who they live
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: with has been found dead horrifically. Now, to the investigators,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: though this didn't look like grief. It looked like the
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: physiological collapse of a guilty man. Because you know, if
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: they cry, they're hiding something. If they're not crying, they're
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: hiding something. There's literally nothing you can do to win
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: if they have their eyes set on you. Now, they
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: viewed his presence at the garage not as a family
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: member seeking support, but as a killer trying to act
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: normal to deflect suspicion. And the atmosphere in the fly
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: by Night garage was very thick with hostility, all right.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Sergeant Walter Gilmour, a seasoned and formidable investigator, wasn't just talking.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: He was hunting for the killer. As he questioned Greg,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Gilmer's eyes were constantly scanning the garage floor and the
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: work benches. He was looking for a specific match to
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: the speaker wire. He knew best Risk had been bound
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: with it, and he was convinced that if he looked
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: hard enough, he would find a spool of it among
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Greg's things or the brother's gear. But couldn't have just
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: been literally from anywhere, Like you didn't have to like hold,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: you didn't have to have a car garage to be
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: the only people that would have it, right, regular people
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: that tinker with stuff might Yeah.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: I just realized that the fly Bly night Garage and
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: the fly Blind night Club are two different things.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: They are two different things. Isn't that interesting? They were
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: very creative with names in ingreage Alaska.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, and I find that as doing the
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: slides and reading this story, there was a lot of flying.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Airport seems to be a very common thing in Alaska
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: that people like to fly. There's lots of pilots.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: There are lots of pilots. One, there's a lot of
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: pilots to deliver things. Because a lot of people live
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: in isolation in Alaska that many times it's not even
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: possible to get to Plus a lot of people had
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: to even get to Alaska. I had to fly into Alaska.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of flying in Alasta.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't realize. I mean, it makes sense, but I
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: didn't realize it until.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: I didn't either at all. And then then there's one
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: thing we're going to talk about tonight that I didn't
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: know was a thing either, and I'm very excited to
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: share with everyone because I was like, what anyway, all right, No,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: you're fine, you are fine. Thoughts are welcome. So while
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Gilmer was giving Greg the evil eye and searching for
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: a speaker wire in a family garage, Robert Hanson was
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: just a few miles away, and if he was best killer,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: he was likely feeling a surge of confidence because the
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: police were tearing apart a grieving family while the man
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: who actually owned the kit, the type of wire, the knife,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: the yellow bakery tissue was completely invisible to them.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Unbelievable because the next day, after they had done interviewing Greg,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: who shows up at the station Patty fucking Roberts, who
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: tells them what happened to her and then she thinks
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: she literally says, I think Robert Hanson killed that Beth girl.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: I remember that one of the first episodes.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: And they are so hell bent on on this, But okay,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Now with as I said Patty Roberts, pointing towards Robert Hanson,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: the troopers chose to pull the thread of the person
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: they could easily reach. Greg's cousin, Ronnie. If Greg was
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: the suspect, then Ronnie was the key. But as Ronnie
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: laid out the events of December twenty second, he provided
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: a chronology that was less a straight line and more
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: of a Jaggett's circle through the Anchorage Bar scene. They
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: were all over the place that night. They were getting
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: turned up. Okay. Now, Ronnie's statement confirmed the one detail though,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: that tethered Greg to Beth. That night the phone call.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Ronnie wanted to go out with his girlfriend Freeda and
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: they needed a sitter, so Greg suggested his cousin Beth.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Greg did in fact call the house, and this explains
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Best's final words to brothers about babysitting for a friend
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: of Greg's. Now Ronnie admitted they drove to the Van
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Hansen house and parked out front, and in the eyes
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: of the troopers, Greg wasn't just a cousin anymore. He
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: was the man who had been physically present at the
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: victim's house right before she vanished. Where he also lives,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: so okay. Now, Ronnie's account of the night was a
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: blur of joint smoking and moving from the Montana Club
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: to the Alley Cat to the Rabbit Hutch. Clever names
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: they had, and the troopers began to calculate the travel
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: time required for Greg to be the killer. They were
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: looking for a gap in Ronnie's memory that was large
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: enough to fit a kidnapping, A twenty six minute drive
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: to McHugh Creek wasted in assault, and a return trip.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: It's kind of a lot of things to try to
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: fit into a time frame here. Now. Their theory, though,
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: was that Greg slips away while Ronnie is cashing a
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: check or wandering to another bar. But even with Ronnie's intoxication,
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Greg would have needed to be a speed demon of
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: violence to accomplish the crime in under an hour. I mean,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: twenty six minutes there, twenty six minutes back. It's fifty
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: two minutes, leaving eight minutes to do fuck all everything else?
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, wasn't there I don't remember specifically at
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: this point, but wasn't there evidence that she fought to
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: I think so?
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I think so.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: The point being is that the drive took up more
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: time than it would have taken for him to subdue.
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: And sure, yeah, okay, thank you, sweetie. Yeah, go ahead
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: and get your shower. Fine, Sorry, sorry, it was aalta glama.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: What did you say? I'm so sorry.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: No, I was just saying that it you know, the
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: fifty two minutes of the struggle. Yeah, I mean, even
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: if she didn't fight fight back there, you know, there was.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Reasons I would say she could. I didn't fight you
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: back in a sense that her arms were tied behind
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: her back, but she did she clearly somehow it gaped
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: and ran like.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Is she trying to tie somebody up?
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly?
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: They're not going to be like, oh yeah, okay, here,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: it's fine.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: No anyway, sorry, it doesn't make sense now. The fatal
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: flaw in cousin Ronnie's statement and the reason the troopers
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: couldn't let go, was the sheer volume of alcohol involved
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: to a man sleeping on a table at the Rabbit
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Hutch less than an hour, I guess, could easily have
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: been three hours. Like, okay, all right, maybe they don't
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: remember events very well. I've had those nights. But I
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: also didn't like murder anybody or kidnap them or anything now. However,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: Ronnie's interview left the troopers with a very dangerous Itchd's
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: initial story about his night didn't match the bars and
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: phone calls Ronnie described. The investigation was now fully committed
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: to the family theory, and the troopers were heading back
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: to Greg to break his story. I mean, I still
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: don't even see how they got that far. They were
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: both shit faced, So how could you believe one and
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: not the other? Anything either one of them said shouldn't matter, right,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: But okay, I.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: Don't have a badge.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: So well, we've learned we are overqualified for Alaska and
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: the state of Massachusetts, so I don't know if that
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: holds up anymore.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Now many other places, I'm sure that we probably wild up.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Yikes. Now, the pressure on Greg intensified during his second interview,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: as investigators attempted to map his movements with mathematical precision.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: In the pre digital age of nineteen seventy one, a
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: man's life could depend on whether his memory of a
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: clock aligned with a witness's testimony. And that's a very
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: terrifying fact, very terrifying fact that really it's like, well,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: that person seems more respectable, so we're gonna go with
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: their telling the truth, which we see play out quite
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: a few times in this whole story overall. So during
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: their second interrogation, Sergeant Gilmour and his team pushed Greg
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: to account for the minutes they were looking for a window,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: specifically between eight thirty and nine thirty pm, where Beth
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: was last seen and when Greg claimed to be at
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: her house.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Excuse me, ma'am.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: What are you talking about? Detect a bullet, that's true.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Amosas are better known as her secret identity. You shouldn't
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: take your glasses.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: Hold out my badge, my sun glasses.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Now, Greg's revised statement placed him inside the Van Santon
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: home and approximately nine pm, he described Beth as laying
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: on our bed looking at books, the house fully lit,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: and he claimed he was only there for three minutes
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: before leaving for her brother Dave's garage and eventually heading
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: to the downtown bars. Another thing that I would like
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: to note is coarse confessions, and there was a lot
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: of that going on at the time. Even now, I mean,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: we've heard, you know, trial as we've watched where the
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: interrogation videos. You're like, okay, but that's not really how
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: that was said. Like at all.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: They're like, does anything ring back.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: And a person is just trying to give them answers
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: to fill something in and get out of there. They
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: will literally say anything. And so this part here, I'm
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: wandering if that wasn't just also him being like, you know,
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: normally she's on her bed and you know, stuff like
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: that hard to tell, And considering we're not dealing with
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: the top notch Alaska's best over here, they wouldn't put
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: it pat.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Them clearly he hadn't asked for a lawyer.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: No, yes, yes, now, he claimed he was only there
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: for three minutes before leaving for her brother Dave's garage
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: and eventually heading to the downtown bars. There was one
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: piece of evidence the troopers held back, a hard stop
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: in the timeline. At one am, a state trooper patrol
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: had stopped Greg and Ronnie on Fourth Avenue. They were
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: drunk in the company of three Native women and were
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: deemed too intoxicated to drive, and the police forced them
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: into a taxi. So that's how we know how hammered
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: they are. And look at him just being like, it's fine,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: we'll drive you back. But also even if he had
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: taken even if they had taken her at nine, it's
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: gonna say your time is getting That doesn't add Again,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: we're talking about a twenty six drop. Many drive there
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: and back. But yet, and.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: What was the weather like, because this is winter in Alaska.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Didn't they just have like this huge dature weather too, Yes.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: They did. They had a huge storm coming in because
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: on Christmas Day it was finally like dethalling and like
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: nice out. They had had a very tough winter. Now,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: the traffic stop proved two things. One Greg's state of mind.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: He was shit faced. He was undeniably impaired that night,
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: casting doubt on his ability to remember a three minute
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: window versus a twenty minute window. And two, if the
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: crime happened, it had to have occurred before the one
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: am stop. Again, at this point, the police know how
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: shitfaced he is, and you're expecting him to fill out
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: a timeline for you, and you're admitting there's no way
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: he could be accurate about any of that. You're just
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: trying to trap them, you know. Now. Even though the
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: math now seemed to work, the investigators were suspicious of
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: the coordination. To Sergeant Gilmour, the precision of the three
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: minutes and ten minutes felt too clean for two men
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: who had been in a drunken stupor did Ronnie and
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: Greg get together to sink their watches before the interviews?
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: I think so. There was also the matter of other
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: eyewitness accounts. If Greg was at the house at nine pm,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: why did a neighbor report seeing Beth on Northern Lights
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Boulevard at the same time? If she was at the store,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: she couldn't have been on her bed looking at books.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: This is not good for investigators here, like.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: You know, they seem to be wanting to, you know,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: go by. You know, the stereotypes are you know, putting
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: people in these silos of you know, he was he
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: fit the mold of somebody that would do something like this, right,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: That's what I thought.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: And facts from right here.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: What about the neighbor? What box did they fit in? Right?
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: More reliable? So you're gonna you know what I mean exactly?
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. It does now. As a
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, I titled this next section what a
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: clusterfuck because that is where we are in this story.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: So could I couldn't find a slide for that.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: But it's just us being like, ah, so wild. Sergeant
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Walter Gilmore and his team were desperate for a clean trail.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: They were met instead with a clusterfuck of witnesses. It
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: was a collage of accounts that painted Beth as everything
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: from a naive extrovert to a boy crazy hitchhiker who
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: quote found what she was looking for. Yeah, this is
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: wild now. Some of their statements were just wow when
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: I was reading them, like why would you even say
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: them out loud? And in particular, I'm going to call
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: out a mister Robert Michael Morgan, friend of Greg Nicholas,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: who said, quote I went over to where Greg lived
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: and met the girl who was killed. She was kind
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: of fat. Like what, what mister Robert Michael moore agenda.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Has anything to do with Like why why even say that?
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Why you haven't say that?
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Why would you say that aloud.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: If you did meet her, even if you did think that,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: what does that have to do with anything?
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly now, Grant, he's probably a stupid young kid,
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: But a lot of people have a lot of opinions
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: about this now. When investigators began interviewing those who knew her,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: they described a young woman who was a paradox. Friends
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: of Anchorage Community College described her as an extrovert with
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: wild ideas about building bush lodges, and also a strict
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: moral stance against hitchhiking. So that's interesting.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: That's not really though.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Others like Diane Carlo claimed that she was boy crazy
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: and walked everywhere at night, though she wouldn't scare each life.
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: But a darker undercurrent came from Mary McKenny, who claimed
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: that Beth was quote quite free with her body end quote,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: and had explicitly warned her not to trust her foster
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: cousin Greg. Diane, I don't know about any of that
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: you have, Mary, Mary said that, Oh Mary, yes you
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: Mary mcknny. Are you Robert's mom or something with your
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: judgy comments. Now, in these contradictions, we see the tragedy
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: of a girl who was only eighteen years old, all right,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: a little pupa waiting for her next stage to being
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: a beautiful butterfly, and now subject to the post mortem
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: judgments of an entire city. Anchorage might be the most
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: judgeous place I have ever had to research into at
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: these times.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: Literally, wow, I certainly hope they've changed. You know, we
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: shouldn't judge a whole city or state based on these
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: dous that book.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: We're going to call them all out. They should be. Now,
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: the most specific and terrifying lead it came from two
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: school friends, Andrea Taggart and Louise Hawkins, who claimed to
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: have seen Beth at approximately one am on December twenty third,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: hours after she supposedly vanished, and also when Greg is
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: getting pulled over forward. All right, so these two women
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: who are her school friends or at least acquaintances at school,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: know who she is and what she looks like. This
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: is what they had to say. So they said, Now
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: whether or not they're actually friends is debatable, to be
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: quite honest, you know, it's just not town. Just because
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: you know somebody for like five years doesn't mean you're
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: actually like friends.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: But also, and even back then, I'm sure there were
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: the people who wanted to you know, yeah, even as
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: disgusting as it sounds, want to get some sort of
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: you know, fifteen minutes.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Like Mary just talked about. Because I think that was
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Mary mckenniy's whole thing. I told her not to trust
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: him when she probably never once ever said that it
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: was his eyes, it was his face. It just made
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: me uncomfortable. No anyway, So Andrea and Louise. All right,
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: they said Beth appeared blown away, stoned, out of her
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: mind and disheveled. We don't know if she smoked weed
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: or not. I don't know. I don't think so. I
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: didn't hear anything about the toxology report, but we also
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: don't have the information, so I can't really.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: But I also wouldn't be judging her based on that
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: either her age there. I mean, everybody else was doing
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: it in her household, so.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Everyone else is getting she faced out of their minds
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: on alcohol and drugs at the time. Okay, if she
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: was smoking weed, it is the least of anybody's business.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: And at one am, who doesn't look disheveled.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: I look dishoveled now.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: You see.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: My hair got bigger today as the day went on,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: and I was like, oh man, I got like that
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: cave lady hair today.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: Mine got great. It's your wisdom, yeah, okay, yeah.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: Now. They said her hair was a mess and she
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: hung her head looking droopy. They said she came in
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: with the man, but both of the women gave slightly
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: different descriptions of him. Andrea said that he was a
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: white male, very tall, like six foot or six y two,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: which again, people doing heights generally have no idea what
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: they're talking about, so I.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: Don't don't even try to guess with somebody's oh white weight,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: forget about it.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: I'm never close to any of those things.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: I can only make an assessment based on if they
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: looked similar to me, because I know my eye and
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: I know my weight, or if.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: They're like six foot four and you're like, oh, that
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: was definitely a tall person, a tall tall person that
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: the person had rather skinny legs, about one hundred and
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: eighty pounds, wearing a drab military type parka with a
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: fool hood and wolf appearance around it. I don't know
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: what that means, but I'm assuming like a fur yeah thing.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know why you would describe it that way,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: but I don't.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: I don't either. They were wearing jeans, not dow bottoms.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: Just to clarify, because they did it. It's the seventies,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: black shoes, clean hair, dark brown, one inch or two
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: inches below the ear, not well kept. He was twenty
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: two or twenty four years old or younger. He had
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: a large nose, and she did not notice a beard
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: or glasses. Now Louise described the man as being young,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: early to mid twenties, thin, tall five eight to six
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: foot with long, dark brown hair. He may have been
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: wearing light horn rimmed glasses and possibly a few days
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: of beard growth on his face. Now, what's interesting about
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: the tiki room at the Tropics Hotel was that it
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: was directly across the street from the fly By Night
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: garage owned by Bess Brothers. So, if you believe Andrea
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: and Louise, this placed Beth in the company of a
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: stranger mere feet from where her brother and Greg were
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: supposedly hanging out. Yet the bartender and waitress had no
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: memory of her. You know, the sober people.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: Was going to I was gonna say they probably weren't drinking,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: but I do also this.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, drinking does happen when you're working barn. But
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: still you can't get a super ship face now, you know.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: It did raise a chilling question though, was Beth already
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: in the hands of a predator right under the noses
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: of her family. I'll be honest, I don't think that
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: she was at the teaker room. Why would somebody kidnap
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: her take her there? She seemed drugged. That just seems
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: very weird to do so, and nobody else saw anything
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: but those two. So you can let me know if
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: you believe them or not. Maybe they're right. I don't know.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: I will say Louise is the script. Guess who that
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: fits to a fucking tea. Robert Hanson, that's who? Five ten,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: a little bit longer hair at the time, horn rimmed glasses. Now,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: while the tiki room man was a compelling new suspect,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: the neighborhood witnesses at Northern Lights Boulevard offered a more
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: grounded and perhaps more accurate timeline. A neighbor, Jay Dice,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: said he saw Beth around nine pm talking to someone
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: in a dark colored car under a lamp post. Who
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: do we know that has a dark colored car? Robert
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: Hanson that too, I don't know what color Greg's car is.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: Another witnessed her walking towards the bilo somewhere between nine
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: thirty four and nine pm. Eight there were oh, eight
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: thirty four, thank you, eight thirty four to nine pm.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: There were two other witnesses who claimed to see her
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: a little bit later. One said they saw Beth walking
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: away from her house at about ten pm, and the
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: other witness said they saw Beth hitchhiking on the main
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: road sometime between ten and eleven PM, So that just
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: extended the time further. I think maybe they're cloxious, weren't right,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: But I think that they're a little bit more reliable
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: so far of all of the other people that we've
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: talked to. But who knows where these girls wasted when
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: they saw him? I mean probably, I don't know. Now.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Despite the Tiki room man matching the description of a
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: typical seventy strifter, the description didn't quite fit the short
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: studying baker with the thick glasses. But as I said,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: the dark colored car spotted by the night the neighbor
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: that was signature Roger Robert Hanson. He literally used that
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: car three days before to take Patty Roberts.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Now, while the cuture is very adamant about the story,
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: can you hear her?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Oh? Who ginger? No? I hear my true?
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: Never, she does not ever bark this much. And tonight
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: she is going off.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: She has popping off. She's like even I figured it out. Now.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: While the Taq room man remained a ghost in the distance,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: the investigation into Beth van Santon's murder snap focused back
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: onto cousin Greg. A chaotic sequence of events, including a
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: literal collusion collision with a moose, made Greg look less
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: like a grieving cousin and more like a man frantically
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: scrubbing his life of evidence to investigators. Now, I did
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: not have a moose on my bingo card for this story.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys dead, But on Christmas Eve,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: as Beth's body lay frozen and undiscovered at Acute Creek,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: Greg was driving to Conny with the young family. At
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: mile eighty one of the Sterling Highway. He struck a moose,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: totaling his car because it's a fucking moose, And in
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: the rugged logic of Alaska, this was more than an accident.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: It was the ultimate mechanical black hole right whatever, to investigators.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Whatever forensic evidence might have been in that vehicle, fibers
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: from the green parka that she may have been wearing,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: speaker wire, or bakery tissue, was now sitting in a
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: crumbled heap in a Naptown tow yard. Now this is
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: again before they even bring him in. Okay, Now, if
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: you are like me, I had never really thought about
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: moose car accidents before, so of course I looked into
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: it as Mama dots, and apparently there are thousands of
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: car moose collisions that occur every year in North America,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: with roughly eight hundred of them in Alaska a year.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: How terrifying? Have you ever hit a deer before, Amy, Yes,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: and we think that's wild a moose? No, thanks, Oh
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: my gosh, that would Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like they move fast.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: They actually moose can move very quickly.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Really, I'm not no moose.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, moose are terrifying. They are terrifying, But I.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't mean when you could stop in time. I don't know, maybe,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, I don't know.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: I know if the moose were in Ohio, we'd be
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: hitting like seven a day.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: Running into all kinds of buildings.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: Right, I'll be honest. I didn't even know that there
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: were enough moose in Alaska to have eight hundred car
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: moose collisions a year. Really, I mean, I knew that
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: there's a good population, really, I didn't think there was
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: like many.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the plural is.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know moose are I think it's just moose
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: moose yeah, Okay, I don't think it's MEAs might. Yeah,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know much about moose. But
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: they're scary, they're bigger than horses.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: They yeah, and they're angry. Yeah, they can be learns about.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: Learn about moose.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't have a topic pic for it tomorrow,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: so I almost type to me. Now, all right, So
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: he hits a moose and a car is totaled, and
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, we knew it, we knew all the
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: evidence was in there, and he mostid it on purpose.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Remember he was in the car with other people, So okay,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: whats it? So investigators turned to Greg's friends to nail
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: down his nine PM alibi. Elsie Young, who was also
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: in Greg's car when he hit the moose, initially provided
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: Greg's airtight alibi, but her subsequent statements to investigator Zaruba
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: did Greg no favors.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: Wait a second, he hit the moose on the same
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: night she went missing.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: Okay, on Christmas, because how would you not remember that.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: Two days after she went missing. So the day before
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: her body's found, okay, is when he hits the moose.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: So this is before anyone even knows she's dead. They
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: before anybody suspects him of killing her, like and as
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: we learned in Alaska, it's not uncommon to him moose,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: and they're acting like this is some master obscure plan
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: concocted by him, before anybody even knows she's dead. Okay, now,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: as I said, where was I? There we go, Elsie?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: All right? So, Elsie admitted that Greg had given her
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: twenty dollars for cav Beair to see the troopers and
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: explicitly told her don't tell them I gave you any money.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not great to tell her no, But
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: also I could be like, just why would that matter?
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Why does it matter? Exactly? She also said on January
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: tewond at around midnight, Greg had pounded on her door
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: panic and pleaded with her to tell police he was
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: with her from nine pm to midnight. Now most ominously,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: Elsie confirmed that Greg wore a knife and a leather
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: pouch on his belt that Knight Beth vanished. She also
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: mentioned he was wearing it during the Moose crash. Uh
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: so do most Alaskan men. I've learned in this story
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: that somebody who carries around a knife is pretty like
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: that's pretty normal.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, they do it everywhere everywhere. My husband and
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: son both have pocket knives, right, it's I mean, I
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: guess I don't know if this is a pocket knife
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: she's talking about, but regardless, but up there in Alaska,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be like, oh my god, he was carrying
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: a knife.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: Right, you don't know when you're gonna run into a mouse.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: They're everywhere.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: Apparently it's pretty odden.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Right, I've watched a lot of seasons of Alone that
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: are that takes place in Alasta.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, carrying around shoelaces, leather laces is not suspicious.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, right, people were not Carrie knives all the time.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's that weird. But to the police,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: they're like, yes, got him, Okay, Now, this was a
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: detail that aligned up perfectly with the slash wounds found
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: on best chest. But they're not saying that the knife
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: made sense in any way, like it was a match
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: or anything. The alibi Greg tried to buy was quickly
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: dismantled by Wassili Wassili that's her name, who had been
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: with Elsie that night. She claimed that between nine oh
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: five and nine to twenty five pm, Greg and Ronnie
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: arrived at the Montana Club, talked for about five minutes
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: and then Wassili left, so Elsie was supposed to leave
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: with her, but the two had a disagreement and Elsie
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: went back inside. So now the police have these two people,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: Elsie and Wascily, who.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: Was like, you know, I thought that was a typo,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: I don't worry.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: I checked. I was like, what was Cely? Was Celi?
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: I think she might be like a native or something
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: like that. That was my only gues that makes sense
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: now I don't know. So they're saying, yeah, we were
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: at the bar the Montana Club between nine oh five
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: and nine twenty five. So if they think they took
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: Beth from her house at nine, how could they be
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: with Elsie and was Sely? It doesn't make what they
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: just had her in the car and didn't let her
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: come in or like, it doesn't make any sense all right.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: So then there was also Frida Shanigan, sorry my hairs
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: all make of my ear? And she remember her the
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: one with the kid that needed a baby sitter to
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: go out with Greg and Ronnie. Well, she claimed that
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: she refused the babysitter and never asked either of them
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: to call Beth okay, and maybe they just really wanted
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: to go and they're like, well, we're gonna find her baby.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: I know she said no, well I'm gonna I'm gonna
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, maybe if she had a babysitter, she.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Would go right, yeah, like how many times if I
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: don't be never mind, never mind, don't worry about it,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: don't do it. And he goes and fucking does it. Anyway,
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: all right, it's not that weird. It's all I'm saying.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: It's not unusual. The gap here, though, was widening. If
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: Frieda never asked for a babysitter, then why did Greg
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: call back? If while Seeley left early, who was actually
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: watching Greg during the hour it would have taken to
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: snatch Beth from the Northern Lights Boulevard. None of this
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: is making any sense. It doesn't make any sense to me.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: But to Sergeant Walter Gilmore, he was now convinced he
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: was being played. Okay, between the twenty dollars bribe to
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: Elsie and the conflicting stories about the babysitting call, the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: family theory seemed to be hardening into a solid case.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: First of all, he didn't bribe her for twenty dollars.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: They literally said, oh, it was for my cab, and
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: he told me to say that he didn't give me money.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: It wasn't He gave me twenty dollars and told me
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: not to light to you guys. No, that's not at
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: all what happened. Now, however, a new surprise surface, the
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: possibility that the wrong cousin was being squeezed. So as
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: Greg felt the walls closing in, he stopped defending himself
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: and began pointing the finger at Ronnie Buruton.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, I mean everybody's pointing to him, not saying that's okay,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: but right now.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: In Greg's third interview with the investigators.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: Still no lawyer, Still no lawyer.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: For some reason, Greg he threw Ronnie all the way
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: under the bus. He painted Ronnie as a volatile, muscle
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: bound threat, the polar opposite of himself. Greg claimed he
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: had given Ronnie a spare key to his car that night.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: He provided the investigators with a way for the car
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: to be at McHugh Creek while Greg was allegedly at
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: the bar. Greg also suggested that Ronnie was eavesdropping on
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: the babysitting call and was probably on his way to
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: pick her up before Greg even arrived, which doesn't even
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: make any sense.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: Greg, come on.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: He even went as far as to identify Ronnie's hard
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: boots in the crime scene photos. He pointed at the
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: slick sided footprints in the Mchu Creek slush and told
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Sergeant Gilmore that looks like Ronnie. I mean, I have
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: a feeling that they brought They just.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: Show crime scene photos to suspects in Alaska.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: That's not cool, Yeah, and trying to, you know, give
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: him an out. It's a common tactic in investigations, so
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: it's not surprising where they were like, listen, Okay, so
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't you, but what about your cousin, Ronnie?
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: It could be you tell us more of the story
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: and hoping that he ends up tangling him and his
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: cousin in there together and just maybe they both did it.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: But I feel like that's what this conversation really was.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: He's just like, I mean, I guess it could be.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: Well now. At one point, Greg seemed to be tested
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: the limits of nineteen seventy science, asking Gilmaher if his
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: hair and Ronnie's would look identical under a microscope, and
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: he said, well, things look pretty bad for me. It
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: looks like either me or Ron, because I mean, that's
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: what the police are telling him. Let's be honest here,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: that's very much what's probably happening. And perhaps he was
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: hoping that if the police couldn't prove which cousin was
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: driving the car, perhaps they couldn't convict either. Now when Gilmore,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: sensing he was on the verge of a breakthrough, leaned
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: in and asked Greg what he was waiting for to
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: tell the whole story. See that's how we know they
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: were playing playing games. Greg's response was, I'm waiting for
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: the lab results. This is a kid who doesn't even
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: know to ask for a lawyer. And he was like, well,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: I guess, because here's what I think he was probably thinking.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: I was fucking blacked out. I don't know what I
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: was doing. I don't know what I was doing, and
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: maybe something did happen because people keep thinking it's me
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: and saying that there's stuff to prove that it's me,
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: but I don't remember. It happens all the time. And
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: remember he's young. He is very very young. I mean,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: he's an adult, but he's like, I don't know, like
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: nineteen or something. So Sergeant Gilmore didn't think. This wasn't
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: the answer of a panicked kid, and more so the
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: answer of someone who understood understood that in a he said,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: he said, battle between two drunks, only the physical evidence mattered.
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: Maybe Greg was betting that the slush and McHugh Creek
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: hadn't held onto enough of the truth to convict him.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: While the troopers were obsessing over which cousin had the keys,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: they were completely ignoring the Mick Baker, who didn't need
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: to borrow a car, didn't have a muscle bound cousin,
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: and whose own hard boots were never compared to the
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: prince at McHugh Cree. H even though somebody came in
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: and said, listen what he did to me, and I'm
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: pretty sure he probably killed her too. Nope, it has
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: to be these two, has to be.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: It's just.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: Robert Hansen's greatest luck wasn't just the melting snow that
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: it was the police who had found two suspects so
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: perfectly rough and troubled that they forgot to look at
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: the man who was currently baking their morning bread and
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: already got caught. Because at this point too, he's been
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: arrested for the kidnapping, assaults and rape of Patty Roberts.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: And he was already in court for the of ten
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: the aduction of Susan Heppert. He's literally in their grasp,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: like it's not just like he wasn't on their radar.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: He could not have been more a center of the
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: radar right now. Now, at this point, the investigators were
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: at a crossroad. The physical evidence that McHugh Creek was melting,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: the witness statements were a clusterfuck of contradictions. In the
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: primary suspect, cousin Greg Nicholas, was being protected by attorneys
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: who knew the system's weaknesses. That's right, he finally lawyered up.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: They said their client was more than willing to take
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: a light detector test. He now means everything. In nineteen seventies, Alaska,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: they love their light detectors.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: I think most did in that time, though not just Alaska.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: It's true now, just like today, though nineteen seventy two
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: Alaskan courts found a lie detector results inadmissible as evidence
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: because they don't really measure any sense of truth, just
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: atomic or auto automnemonic. Thank you, there we go arousal right,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: So your body's responses to things, all right, has nothing
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: to do with the truth, and, as the American Psychological
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: Association points out, a polygraph is often more of a placebo,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: meaning it works best when the subject believe it works.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: If you're terrified of being caught, your heart rate and
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: skin conductivity will betray you, or you have anxiety because
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: you're being questioned about stuff you don't know anything about.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: But if you're a cold blooded predator, or simply someone
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: who has lived a life of constant trauma, your baseline
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: fear might be indistinguishable, indistinguishable from your truth. Their garbage.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: We liars believe what they say.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: That too, exactly exactly they're garbage now. Sergeant Walter Gilmer
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: was a veteran who trusted his gut more than a machine. Well,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: I don't really, I don't know about that. His gut
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: is wrong a lot in this overall story, because he
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: doesn't go away, I'll be honest. He helped write the
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: book Butcher Baker and No Offense Sergeant Walter Gilmore. But hmm,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: some things were not great like this. For example, he
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: resisted giving Greg the test simply because he thought Greg's
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: lawyers were using it as an exit ramp. Oh, the
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: one time, we don't want somebody to take a lie
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: deteckt your test. Apparently, they promised that if Greg passed,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: the troopers would have to stop treating him like a subject.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: While Gilmour was out of town, his superiors, perhaps desperate
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: to clear a high profile case, gave Greg the box anyway.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: So Greg sat for the exam, and given his previous
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: behavior of the quivering and the crying the twenty dollars
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: bribe to Elsie Young, everyone expected the needles to be
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: flying off the paper, but instead Greg passed. The machine
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: indicated that he was not responsible for the murder of
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: Beth fan Zen. However, the results came with two massive
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: asterisks that kept Gilmore's suspicions alive. And this, mister Gilmore,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: is why I question your gut instincts of things. Prepare yourselves,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: you guys, prepare yourselves. The operator admitted that questions might
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: not have been geared to the actual circumstance. For example,
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: if you ask someone if they murdered a victim, but
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: that person only helped or watched, they might pass the
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: specific question through a technicality of the mind. Right, your
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: mind says well, I didn't murder, so I can say no.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: All right, So Greg, Greg only showed deceptions on two questions.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: Question number one, have you ever participated in an unnatural
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: sex act? Whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean? Like,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: what does that even mean?
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: In I mean I would be nervous answering that.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and especially this would like Mormon family, you know.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: Please please explain the term.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: Unnatural sex act is very vague category, you know, and
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: I don't even understand. And have you ever used marijuana?
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: And guys, this is as Gilmore said, this is what
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: kept his suspicions alive. Those two very bizarre questions, that's
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: were the two where he showed deception. Yeah, because remember
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: marijuana is super legal, okay. And also the sex question
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: was very confusing and weird and means nothing. So cool.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: So with Greg's successful.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: Because I probably would have failed both of those.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: Parts, right, yes, lady, and great unnatural is very subjective. Okay.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: Now now the troopers, oh, I'm sorry. With Greg's successful
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: polygraph acting as a shield, the investigators had only one
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: place left to go. They thought Greg was already thrown
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: his cousin under the bus, claiming Ronnie had the keys
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: in Ronnie's boots match the prints in the snow. Now
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: the troopers had to confront Ronnie Broughton. They needed to
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: see if Ronnie would crumble under the same pressure that
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: Greg had managed to deflect. Again, I wrote this as
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: it was reported. Okay, I don't agree with half of
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: how the story appeared for all of us to consume.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: I'm just put that out there, but this apparently is
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: the story that's out there. So they give themselves a
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: lot of credit where credit is not due in my opinion,
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: right half assed fashion. I'm not going to repeat that
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: on the podcast, but exactly exactly right now, Sergeant Walter
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: Gilmore sat across from Ronnie, expecting a confession or a
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: counter accusation. Instead, he got basically the same narrative that
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: Greg had given. But there was one inconsistency that emerged
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: over cash. Greg claimed that Ronnie didn't have any money,
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: so he gave him twenty dollars, but Ronnie claimed that
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: he gave Greg ten dollars and left the Montana Club
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: to cash a hard earned check from the Alaska Scallop Fleet. Now,
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: Ron's mention of the scallop fleet gave a bit of
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: a rugged, blue collar legitimacy. To his story, scallop fishing
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: in Alaska was and is brutal, around the clock labor.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: Though I did love scallops, I haven't had them in
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: so long. The fact that Ronnie had a paycheck from
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: a grueling job showed that he was a guy with
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: a schedule and an income, and we all know, to
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: Anchorage police makes you a respectable person who could never
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: do anything wrong. Ever, Yet the troopers couldn't reconcile why
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: two cousins would lie about something as trivial as a
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: twenty dollars bill, unless maybe they were trying to hide
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: the nature of their movements gat or maybe it just
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: doesn't fucking matter. They were drunk. Why does it like?
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: Why does this even matter? So to Sergeant Gilmore, Ronnie's
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: defense was maddeningly passive. Ronnie didn't erupt in a rage
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: at his cousin's betrayal. Instead, he simply dismissed it as
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: Greg being strange. Gilmore was witnessing the family theory dissolve
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: into a series of dead inns. You think Greg pointed
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: to the bootprints in the snow, but Ronnie was never
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: definitively linked to them. Greg claimed Ronnie took the car
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: and Ronnie they were together. The investigation was drowning in
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: the subtlety of meaning. Every time a trooper pulled on
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: a thread, a twenty dollars bill, a scallop check, a
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: ten minute time gap at a bar, the thread snapped back.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's because you guys focus to people. Yeah. Now,
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: as I said, remember it was Patty Roberts kidnapped and
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: assaulted the TRUSTe trooper's daughter just three days before Beth
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: went missing. Who put Robert Hansen on the investigator list
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 1: of suspects as she vehemently believed he was responsible for
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: bethan Sand's murder. And she didn't even know Beth, but
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: she was like, she didn't even know much of the details,
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: but she was like, yep, yes. When they brought Hanson
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: in to talk about the abduction, rape of Patty everybody,
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: they also asked him about his whereabouts on December twenty second,
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: the night Beth went missing.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: So they did did he say that he was trolling
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: on Northern Lights Boulevard And they probably didn't think anything
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: of it?
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 1: Right, Well, here's what happened. Hanson provided a handwritten statement
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: that accounted for nearly every minute of his day with
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: a rigid, almost defensive precision. Tell me that's not suspicious,
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: because it is. He did this whole hard working family
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: man shtick. He worked a full shift, then spent time
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: with his wife and sister in law and daughter. He
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: then blazed himself at a pizza supper with Larry Bivins,
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: but didn't leave until ten thirty pm. Okay, a pizza
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: supper till ten thirty pm. Okay, buddy. And out of
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: the nine times in that statement that he referenced the clock, yeah,
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: like he was thorough thorough, he only underlined one, and
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: that was the ten thirty one. Because Hanson knew exactly
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: what he was doing. In my opinion, by stressing the
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: ten thirty pm, he was intentionally clearing that nine pm
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: window when Beth vanished. It was his way of saying
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: he had an alibi without ever having to say he
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: knew when she disappeared, and considering he was he has
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: all of these alibi friends that he gets to life
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 1: for him. I really find this pizza dinner suspicious. Af
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: I don't believe a single word of any of his
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: his accounts for that day now because remember, Oh he
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: had all sorts of al for Patty, for Cindy. Oh no,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: we were just uh what was it. We were just
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: playing a fishing trip from eleven thirty nine to five
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: in the morning. Just too, dude, It's totally normal. It's
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: fine now. Sergeant Glenn Flock, looking back years later, saw
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: the statement for what it truly was, a predator's camouflage.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: Me too, sir, Me too. Flak understood that the most
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: effective lies are built on a foundation of truth. Hanson
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: likely did go to that pizza supper. He likely did
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: sit there with his wife and daughter. But as Flock noted,
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: Hanson was a man who could function for it days
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: without sleep, fueled by a dark manic homicidal energy. Hanson
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: didn't need to be missing all night. He only needed window.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: He had more than enough time to intercept a girl
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: walking to the bilo, transport her and return before the
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: night was over. Think about a normal time to have
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: a pizza dinner. Okay, chances are at this point you'd
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: at least probably be heading home about nine in the morning,
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: because remember he starts were it at four in the morning? Reasonable,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: Your wife wouldn't want you out super late. You head
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: out around nine o'clock. Oh oh, and then you see her,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: but then you don't ride back at home till at
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: least ten thirty eleven, which really fits into that timeline
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: like a whole lot. So it is absolutely mind blowing
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: to me that this was all. This was all they
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 1: ever asked him regarding Beth when he was literally arrested
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: twice and that moment, being arrested for abducting and insulting
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: two other eighteen year old women. All right, that's how
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: old Beth was too, Like how he was not the
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: prime suspect in this is beyond me when so much
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: of it matches his emo. As we go by telling
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: you the victims remember all of these early days. I mean, yes,
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: we do have the privilege of hindsight, but you were
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: also arresting him for what literally sounds like the same
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: thing to happen to be, like, you have more on
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: this guy than fucking Greg.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: Hmm.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: So you know, yes, you're more likely to be murdered
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 1: by someone you know, a friend or a family like
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: Greg and Bronnie. But someone who has done with Hanson,
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: has done who had been caught doing it, it's even
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: more likely. In my opinion that this was always going
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: to escalate to murder, and I believe that escalated to
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: murder with Beth because he didn't actually murder her. She
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: died from falling fifty feet to her death. I mean,
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: it still counts as murder legally, but I do believe
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: it was him, absolutely, and I just don't understand.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: So he didn't murder legally he did well, I'm just saying,
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: in his eyes, he didn't murder her.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: Right exactly, you know exactly now. Sadly, as January nineteen
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: seventy two came to a close, the investigation into the
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: death of Beth van Zantin didn't end with a bang
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: or a breakthrough. Instead, it ended with a transfer. Walter
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: Gilmour was pulled into Colonel Dankworth, yeah that's his name,
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: Dankworth's office and told his focus was moving to narcotics.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: In the eyes of the department, the family theory had
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: reached its limit and there were no other viable paths.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: Gilmour's briefing to the colonel revealed the crushing reality of
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventies forensics. For all the psychological pressure they put
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: on cousin Greg, the science simply wasn't there to back
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: it up, despite the victim coming. There was actually no
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: foreign hair found on best body or clothing, despite what
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: they told Greg, Yeah there was nothing. Guys, there was
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: all a bluffin to him. But then he's the asshole
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: for being like, well, I guess I'll just wait and
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: see how the tests work. I don't know now. The
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: sperm recovered because she was sexually assaulted provided a blood type,
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: but in nineteen seventy two blood typing was more exclusionary
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: and not definitive. It couldn't really tell you much, meaning
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: though that it would narrow down a population if maybe
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: it's one of the rarer ones, you know, but like,
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: but it couldn't point to a single man. Then the
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: other piece of evidence that might have held fiber our prints,
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: according to Gilmore, was Greg's car, and that was a
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: literal mess of moose hair and blood. But honestly, I
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: don't think they would have found anything in there anyway.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: Well, well, of course they wouldn't, because he didn't do
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 2: it right.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: No, I do wonder if since they actually instance car,
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: huh did they actually.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: Try what to get magic car and find anything in there?
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, I realized that it was probably a mess
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: of since it was totaled.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it was also pretty far away from anchorage.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: It could have been destroyed by the time. I mean,
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: who knows. But I do wonder that since they had
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: Hansome's car because of Patty's case, because we know they
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: took his car, if there was anything done or found
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: in it that could have been linked to Beth in
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: any way shape performed, we won't know. Because of me
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: everything I've learned, they didn't even bother to freaking look.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: And then there's the speaker wire used to bind Best,
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: the risk that they desperately tried to identify its manufacturer source,
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: but without the match to a suspect's home, it was
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: just a piece of trash. Now. According to Gilmore's notes
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: from the early eighties, he was frustrated by the systemic
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: blindness of his law enforcement of years. Yeah, this is
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. Oh yeah, really, yeah, buddy, Oh yeah, who.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: Has systemic blindness?
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 1: Uh?
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: Greg? I mean Gilmore right, the audacity?
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: What's crazy? All the majority of the troopers saw Robert
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: Hanson as a wimpy, stuttering baker who was too small
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: for murder. Gilmore saw a predator. But did you though, again,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: these are my information comes from the Butcher Baker book
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 1: and his own statements. And I'm like, sir, what because
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: you literally had him in jail, you literally asked him
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: what he was doing. And now you're going to be like, no,
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: I knew it the whole time.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: What?
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 1: So he dismissed it later on the world cap Class Hunter,
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 1: accolades and the Psychiatric Google the book. As he said
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: to Gilmore, Hanson wasn't a success story of rehabilitation. He
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: was a quote creepy little shit whose teenage fantasies of
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: hurting women were manifesting in the real world. Yes, but
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: you did not help with that, sir. Now, with his
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: two best friends effectively dead, I'm sorry, Nope, that's not
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: at all right. I'm sorry. I was like, wait, that
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. With his two best leads effectively dead,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: Greg had passed the fear detector and Hanson and his
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: pizza subburb supper alibi, Gilmour was left with nothing but
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: the case log. This log was a collection of every tip,
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: every rumor, and every dark secret phoned in by the
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: citizens of Anchorage. It was a record of a city's
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: rot It revealed a hidden world of sexual abuse and
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: violence that the respectable public didn't want to acknowledge. The
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: investigation into Beth van Santon's murder was over for now,
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: But for Sergeant Walter Gilmore, the butcher Baker wasn't a mystery.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: He was a man the system had simply decided to ignore.
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: Which you helped, Sir.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Bold, Bold claims there, Sir Bold. Now, Still to
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: this day, Beth van Zanton's murder remains unsoft. Many investigators
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: believe Beth was the turning point. If she was indeed
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: Hanson's first murder, it provided Hanson with a very dark
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 1: epiphany that he could kill and get away with it.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: And we know he's about to go to court and
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 1: find out that if you assault a sex worker, it's fine,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: You're not going to get in trouble for it, and
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: it's all fine. So all of these things happening at
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: the same point. How could he not think that? Because
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: when the system failed to connect him to the girl
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: in the snow at McHugh Creek, it embolded him. It
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 1: taught him that the respectable Baker could commit the ultimate
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: sin and the police would still look at the foster
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: cousins and the local drunks. First, the meek Vicker had
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: found his rhythm, and as we move into the mid
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: seventies the Silent Decade, Anchorage was about to find out
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: just how loud that silence could be so bad. Well,
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: next time on True Crime and Wine, Time's Frozen Fear
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: the Butcher Baker of Alaska series. We moved deeper into
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: the Silent Decade with the Beth of van Zanten case
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: leaving a permanent scar on the city. The year nineteen
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: seventy two arrives, and with it a terrifying pattern begins
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: to take shape. We start on the freezing night of
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: February twelfth, nineteen seventy two, at the Green Dragon Nightclub.
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: It was here that eighteen year old Shirley Anne Jonas
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: walked out into the sub zero darkness and into the
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 1: company of a tall man in a yellow shirt. When
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: she was found hours later in a desolate truckyard, the
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: weapon wasn't a knife or a gun. It was the
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: Alaskan winter itself. We'll ask the question the police couldn't answer.
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 1: Then was this another notch on the butcher Baker's belt?
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: But the year wasn't finished we'll also investigate the August
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two disappearance of zz Mason. Unlike the other
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: victims found in the snow, Zizi vanished into thin air
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: of late summer, leaving behind a trail of broken leads
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: and a connection to a rough suspect that might have
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: been the perfect distraction for a stuttering baker. As the
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: body's mount and the files remain unsolved, we'll look at
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: how Robert Hansen was navigating this landscape, a man living
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: just over a mile from the crime scenes. Was heching
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 1: the police chase ghost while he perfected the hunt. So
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: join us for part five of the Silent Decade nineteen
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: seventy two Unsolved Shirley Ann Jonas and ZZ Mason. And
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: that one is also wild. Guys, if you think they
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: get better and investigating, no, don't. And if you enjoy trials,
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: there is a trial in that one. So you used
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: to want to visit Alaska?
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: Him same.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a beautiful place, all right. But now
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: I just have a little closing thought. But do you
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: have any thoughts you want to share? Before I do,
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 1: uh my clothes out. I know I read a lot,
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: so what do you what are some thoughts you have, Amos.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 2: I think I'm want to save mine for next.
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, yes, because Amos will be a guest co host
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: with me next week. I'm very excited about about that.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it'll be planned and all.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I oh, I do very much appreciate you
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: come on, coming on and hanging out and just being like,
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: because Ama sends me a message at least every other
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: night being like, I hate this guy and I hate you.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: The things that I'm finding along the way is just
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: mind blowing too, like, and they may be in the story.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 2: I just haven't got to that part yet, but yeah,
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 2: it's like.
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: M And now some investigators claim that who they believe
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: the murderer of beth Is died a short while after this.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: I don't believe that for one second, which by the way,
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: would not be Greg or Ronnie as far as I
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: could find. So I don't know.
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I did think there were other killers in.
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: That there was one that we talk about next time.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: I think, well, I don't want to say too much
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: just because I don't know and I haven't really read
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: everything yet, so it may be in the future. And
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: I know how you are about spoilers. And I've already
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: gotten that's true. Shamed about spoilers in another chat today,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: I just try to love that myself.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: I love that well. My closing thoughts for this episode is,
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: you know, we like to think that justice is a
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: straight line. I mean, for the most part, it usually
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: works that way, But in the frozen landscape of nineteen
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: seventy one Anchorage, it was more of a circle that
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: led back to the same dark corners. The tragedy of
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: Beth van Santen is that she wasn't the only one
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: speaking while best body being laid to rest. Patty Roberts
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: was offering the police the keys to the kingdom. They
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: couldn't have had a better victim, quite frankly surviving victim
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: than Patty Roberts. She gave them his name, his face,
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: basically a blueprint of a man who didn't just hurt women,
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: but wanted to dominate them. She told the truth with
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: a clarity that only a survivor can process or possess.
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, yet, in nineteen seventy one, it seems like
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: the truth was more of an inconvenient guest. Sure does
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: sound like that, and we're only on nineteen seventy two.
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: It was easier to believe in the meek baker than
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: the butcher. It was more comfortable to view best death
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: as a tragic anomaly and Patty's trauma he said, she said,
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: complication right, so easy. The system, though, didn't just fail
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: these two women. It chose a comfortable lie over a
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: terrifying reality. I believe that it chose to see the
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: flower on Robert Hanson's hands instead of the blood that
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: was on them. If Hanson is indeed the killer of
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: Beth van Sanden, then her story may be one of
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 1: the most haunting what ifs in true crime history. How
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: many exes could have stayed off of that infamous aviation
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: map if the system had been brave enough and I
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: don't know, smart enough to believe the women who were
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: already shouting the truth, if the system had actually punished
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: the predator. So as we leave the snow of McHugh
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: Creek and heading more into the Silent Decade, we are
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: left with a chilling realization that the most dangerous thing
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: about Robert Hanson wasn't his gun or his plane. It
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: was actually our refusal to see him for what he
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: truly was. And so that brings us to the end
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 1: of the episode today, Mike Drop, Mike Drap, I mean,
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: just all the what ifs, all the what ifs. We're guys,
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: seventeen women that we know of are going to lose
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: their lives very soon, and it's a shame. It's a shame.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: Beth might have been the first one. But so before
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: we go though, just have a cute few little you
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: know promos. If you like what you heard tonight, be
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: sure to follow us on all of our socials and
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: subscribe to our YouTube channel it's free, or if you're
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: listening to our pod, please download and give us a rating.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: All of that helps us tremendously, tremendously in getting our
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: channel out there, no matter what platform you're listening to. Also,
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: we'll be back with part five of our Frozen Fear
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: The Butcher Baker of Alaska series on Monday at eight
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: pm Eastern YEP. Next week, you guys are getting a
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: lot of true crime and wine time because we have
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: a bunch of parts we need to get through and
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: I have a March deadline where I have to stop
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: talking about it. So next week you are going to
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: get a lot of true crime and wine time. Monday
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 1: at eight pm, So if you haven't yet, hit the
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: subscribe button and turn on that notification bell so you
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: don't miss will me go alive? Is there anything you
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: would like to say, Aimes before I sign us off
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: for the evening. No, just that Lama needs to stop
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: being in charge of deep diving. It's bad for everything.
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, I actually don't mind it. I just it's
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of rabbit hole like it's like a black hole,
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 2: like it just doesn't end. It just does not end.
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: And Mondays is gonna be boy oh boy, oh boy.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: All right, you are well. Thank you for being here
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: with us tonight. You guys, please stay safe and until
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: next time, go forth and be amazing. All right, bye guys.
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm