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LIVE from the WriterCon Cruise! · WriterCon

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  This week on the writer KHN podcast Read Everything. Welcome to writer Khn,
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  a gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing and the writing world.
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  Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of the Red
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  Sneaker books on writing, and Renee Gutteridge, best selling author of over thirty
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  novels and screenplays. Wellow, writers, We were recording this podcast live from
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  the Writer Con Cruise. Yes, those are real people, all crowded together
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  in the ship's library so we can bring you this podcast. But that's okay.
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  We're all friends now right. Renee couldn't sail with us on this cruise,
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  but as a special treat today I'm joined by the award winning author of
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  Red Rain and the Wotton File series, the one and only Laura earn Hard,
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  and as usual, our sound engineer, Jesse Ulrich, who is a
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  far more experienced cruiser than we are. Jesse, is it true that you
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  had a cool terry cloth robe waiting for you in your room? Well,
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  one, I don't know if it was terry cloth, and two we had
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  to spillhart but a very thick, uncomfortable cotton. But it was free,
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  so that was nice. I did not get a robe. I know that
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  part. I know they're available for twenty five dollars, so you want one,
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  So you're gonna have one. Laura, this is your second cruise,
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  I believe. Are you having a good time? Yes? What's what's not
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  to enjoy? I don't have to cook, I don't have to clean,
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  and there's so much to do on the ship, and I'm surrounded by all
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  these amazing people. Yeah, lot's of good writers. Huh. What's your
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  favorite part of the cruise? Favorite part? Well, we're surrounded by my
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  beautiful see beautiful writers, and we're unplugged and just focusing on what we're most
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  passionate about. Yeah, great stuff. Our interview today will be with Carrie
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  Herwig, the author of many published books, including most recently the Army Brat
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  Hunting series. The second installment of that The World Ends at the River has
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  just been published. But we're also going to talk to some of the cruise
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  participants about the whole writer Ton cruise experience, because you know, we'll be
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  having another one next year and you could be a part of it, and
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  I hope you will. So we'll talk to Carrie and others after the News
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  segment and a brief word from our friends at draft to Digital. Hi,
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  this is Kevin Thombinson with digital e books are amazing, but there's just something
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  about having your book in print. That's why we built D to D print.
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  We take care of you with free layout templates and formatting, and we
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  can convert your ebook cover into a full wraparound print cover automatically. Come check
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  out D d print and all the cool duels we've built for you. Find
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  out more at draft to digital dot com News story number one. You may
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  remember last time we talked about James Patterson because he was objecting to being banned
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  by a Florida's school. His young adult series Maximum Ride was banned for no
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  immediately apparent reason. But now he's lashing out against the New York Times and
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  specifically their best seller list. He is annoyed that his most recent nonfiction book,
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  which is called Walk the Blue Line, it's a bunch of true stories
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  by police officers, it did not make the New York Times bestseller list.
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  Well, why aren't you just saying darnick, as I didn't make the list?
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  Maybe next time. Well, it's because according to the book scan data
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  we've talked about BookScan before. Just to avoid confusion, they're now called sir
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  Kenna, but it's the same thing. According to that data, Patterson says
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  that his book actually outsold most of the books featured on the bestseller list,
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  and so I wrote a letter to The New York Times to complain about this
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  and tig surprise, they didn't run the letter, so he posted it on
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  social media. Here's the key quote from this post. He said, you
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  suggest your process has statistical rigor, and it simply doesn't end quote. Well,
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  this is not exactly news. Everybody in the publishing industry, and especially
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  self published authors, are well aware that the New York Times list is,
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  to put it, politely curated, meaning it's not driven by raw sales data.
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  This is one reason why the recent loss of the USA Today best seller
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  lists seemed like such a blow, because it did not curate. It went
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  on raw sales data. It just told you this is what's selling. On
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  the other hand, BookScan data is somewhat limited in scope too. It primarily
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  reports print copies that are sold at retail outlets, so it does not include
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  library sales or direct to consumer sales, much less Amazon sales, which it
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  can be somewhat significant. So, Laura, what is the biggest mystery here
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  that the New York Times best Seller List isn't entirely accurate or that people in
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  the industry keep referencing it even though they know it's not entirely accurate. Well,
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  I think that it's not well known to most readers the way that this
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  is compiled curated, as you said, So that's a big tag on a
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  book, and it draws readers in. You're a New York Times bestselling author,
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  that is still something that you're going to use to promote yourself. I
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  would not I'd do the same thing. I wouldn't turn it down if I
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  was a New York Times bestselling author. I like that it means something to
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  our readers, and it's still something that we would want to promote. So
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  probably the biggest mystery is that they're still doing it this way, even though
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  we've figured them out. I wish that they would bring it bring it about.
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  If you go back far enough, you'll remember when the Harry Potter series
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  was news was new, and the Times List was upset that four of their
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  slots were taken up by Harry Potter books. So they created a separate children's
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  books list and put all the books on it so they wouldn't have that riff
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  raff on their bestseller list. They've never covered self published books, they've never
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  covered am on sales. They don't cover you know, big big box stores
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  like a Target or Walmart and that sort of thing, So it is not
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  scientifically accurate. And they do tend to promote the books from New York publishers
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  that they like, except that didn't help James Patterson this time. Jesse,
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  you're a sympathetic soul? Are You're feeling sorry for James Patterson? So you're
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  asking me about the richest author in America, James Carson. Book that isn't
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  even fiction, just copy conversations of other people didn't make it on the New
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  York Patterson. No, I do not feel sorry for James Patterson. Wow,
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  I take back that whole you're a sympathetic soul, forget it. I
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  met one of his ghost writers wrote this letter to me. Wow, we're
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  getting down to it this time, aren't we all right? News story number
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  two. This relates to a Twitter series some of you will be familiar with
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  hashtag MSWL, which is short for Manuscript Wish list. It's a place where
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  often agents or editors will go to indicate what they're looking for, what's been
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  there this month. Agent Tia Melee wants trope heavy romance. Somebody else wants
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  awkward first state stories. Somebody else wants contemporary romance. Somebody else wants classic
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  rom comes. Somebody else wants romantic stories about monogamy, somebody else wants Soony
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  be Still My Beating Heart romance, somebody else wants ya romance. And even
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  the science fiction editor from Orbit Books says she's looking for the spiciest fantasy romance.
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  But that's just because it's a cool cruise. Do I detect, Jesse,
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  do you detect pattern here? People like romance? Yeah? So are
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  you're going to start reading romances? Here's the thing. Romance is in almost
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  all fiction that I read. It's just not necessarily classified as such. So
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  well, that's true. But I think these people are looking for genre specific
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  category. I will certainly read young adult romance about ultimate Frisbee. I think
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  that'd be fun. Laura, you're not category romances, but you write women's
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  fiction. Can you explain this phenomenon to us? Maybe I have a theory
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  women's fiction what I write is more serious, and we're actually looking at more
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  serious issues. I think we've all been through a really rough three years.
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  Yeah, and I think right now readers are very much wanting Happily ever After.
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  They want they want to get away from more serious concerns because we are
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  already faced with that every day. So I think people, like we said,
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  we've always romance. People really enjoy that particular genre. But I think
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  that Happily ever afters what's getting everybody right now. They're looking for escape.
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  They want to be amused and happy. Sure, as long as it's spicy,
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  and everyone's getting spicy lately. So to be fair, there were a
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  couple of requests for more ya fiction that didn't actually include the word romance,
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  and somebody was looking for books that can be compared to the Yellowjackets TV series,
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  Young Women Strandard Somewhere, plane crash, They went down somewhere. But
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  it appears the romances and high demand news story number three mass firings. Ashett
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  Hashette book Group, of course, is one of the Big five publishers,
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  and both Hashette and Harpercollas have both announced that they're offering voluntary severance packages.
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  To some of their employees as the economic outlook for traditional publishers in twenty twenty
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  three remains sketchy, I'll use that word. A rep from HarperCollins told Publishers
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  Weekly that and I'm quoting here as previously announced, we are working toward a
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  five percent workforce reduction and also the company has quote offered some groups a volunteer
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  severance book program as a part of that process. I have a question,
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  is HarperCollins James Parterson's publisher. No, okay, that's the check you're thinking.
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  They wouldn't have this problem if ye yeah, if only his book was
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  on the New York Times dressing their list, but different publishers, or they'd
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  have it worse because I think it's a pretty good amount of royalties. And
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  contrast that with the last news story number four. Draft to Digital is now
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  adding print distribution, so possibly at the same time the traditional publishing seems to
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  shrink, the publishing world seems to be growing. Draft to Digital just to
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  rewrite remind you in the interests of fairness, is a sponsor of this podcast.
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  They're also the world's leading book publishing and distribution platform for independent authors and
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  published and publishers, and they've been distributing or aggregating ebooks for a long time.
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  In the last few years they've been test driving their print program and now
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  it's ready to go. So the same people that are sending ebooks everywhere online
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  that sells books just about can now handle your print books as well. They've
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  already helped more than nine thousand authors distribute over thirty thousand print titles. But
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  compare that to overall, they've worked with a quarter of a million authors and
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  publishers and have managed the production, distribution, of promotion of almost one million
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  e books. Fewer than ten percent of those ebooks, though, are actually
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  being offered in print, and that's what Drafted Digital wants to change, because
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  there are in fact still people, even young people, who are actually reading
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  print books. Laura, given all this breaking advice, all of these stories
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  that we've been talking about, all this information, what advice are you giving
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  your writer friends and students. I would never publish just an ebook. I
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  would want that print book. And all my books are available everywhere. You're
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  saying even young people want that. Actually, I just saw something that gen
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  z which is loving the retro feel of vinyl. Right now, They like
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  the retro feel of a book in their hands, so they are actually circling
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  back and like having that hardcover or paperback in their hands. So I won't
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  necessarily put everything in hardcover, but going to have that print no matter what,
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  and I wanted everywhere. Well, you mentioned Vinyl. I read the
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  last year. For the first time in many, many years, probably decades,
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  Vinyl actually outsold CDs in the music world. You have to see print
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  books coming back that big. It could and probably not. I think ebooks
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  are probably going to continue to hold on, but it depends. It depends
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  on the author, and it depends that definitely. We have certain population segments
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  who prefer print, So having the younger generation coming up now and starting to
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  buy some, we might see it edge a little bit out. I think
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  ebooks will probably hold onto the majority share. But it's worth having those print
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  books, I think so plus and how else are you going to take them?
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  How else are you going to give them to family or put them out
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  for your mom or you got to have that print. Yeah, it looks
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  better on the coffee table for sure, right Jesse. I happen to know
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  for a fact because I've been working with her all week that your wife is
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  writing a book, So what advice? What are you going to tell her
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  to do with it once it's finished? Well, first of all, I
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  don't tell her to do anything. I advise her one ask. Yeah,
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  I mean, first of all, like we have multiple versions of the same
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  book on our bookshelves, Like we have at least five different copies of The
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  Lord of the Rings. Like I like physical books, even if I don't
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  read from them, even though if I read on my kindle. And as
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  you know, I'm a fan of fantasy, and there's nothing better than like
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  a really well produced copy of a fantasy book. I might not I might
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  just go to it to look at the maps and read it on my kindle.
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  I still like owning us, still like the I like the idea of
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  physical books, even if reading reading from it is not my number one way
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  of reading things. So I don't think I think books will serve come back
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  in a more sort of retrow sort of way. And it might be more
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  that there's less of sort of than mass produced paperbacks and more of like the
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  really cool looking right our backs. So so it's like the like shopping for
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  jewelry at Tiffany's you'll pay more, but you got something cool. I don't
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  know about you, but have you ever enjoyed reading one of those like mass
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  produced paperbacks where the font is so small that you'd like, hold it right
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  here? I've never I've never once liked one of those like you can fold
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  it open up the entire way. I hate it. And where's the button
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  where you can enlarge the text so I can read it? Yeah? All
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  right, Jesse, we got some people that I really want to talk to,
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  so qu up the music. Harry Herwig, thanks for being on the
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  podcast. Thank you for asking me all right. Traditional first question that every
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  guest gets stuck with. If you could give authors one piece of advice?
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  And I bet you could give a lot, But if you have to narrow
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  it down to one piece of advice, what would it be? Read?
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  Read everything, all kinds of fiction, John Is. Every type of book
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  has something you can learn from. Fantastic, excellent. What inspired you to
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  start writing in the first place. I just loved to read, and I
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  just thought maybe I would try it. I'm one of those late bloomers.
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  I didn't start writing really seriously until I was in my forties. I would
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  argue you had more to say. Then I think it's never too late.
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  That's probably true. Well, let's talk about those because I mentioned earlier the
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  Army Brat Hunting books that you're doing now. But what was your first book?
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  First one that was published? Science fiction? Really? Yeah? I
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  was called eros she and what's that word again? How do you spell that?
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  Hi? Okay? So how'd that go? It did well? It
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  sold true, and then they asked for two more books. This was before
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  you always got a three book contract, right, And it sold pretty well.
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  So I stayed with the publisher, first X books together. And then
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  what took a break or Yes? I decided to go back to school and
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  get a master's degree. And then I got a job and I had to
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  work towards tenure and I was doing all this other writing, which is pretty
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  dull, nothing like fiction. Yeah, life gets in the way, he
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  doesn't, it does. But now you're writing the Army Brat Hunting series.
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  Yes, what sparked that idea? How did that come about? Well?
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  I've always thought I kind of lived an interesting life as an Army brat,
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  moving around different schools, and I sort of wanted to leave something for I
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  don't have children, but I had my nieces and nephews and wanted them to
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  know what it was like for her, my sister and me to grow up.
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  So I thought, well, I'll just write this series of about Vivian
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  and put in some ghosts for some added information. I did never see a
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  ghost, but Tim, I thought I would make it kind of fun.
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  X. Well, we've both we're both write about ghosts. I also have
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  supernatural suspense series. What do you think brings readers to this? What's the
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  appeal? Why do people want to read these supernatural suspense books. I think
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  a lot of people want to believe in ghosts. I've had a couple of
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  things where in an old building once I thought I saw one out of the
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  corner of my eye. Never did know what it was, but I think
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  everybody wants to know do they exist? Are they real? Did I really
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  see one the other day when I was walking down the street. This kind
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  of thing, it's mysterious, I do. I've had people who and I
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  love this. I love getting connection with my readers and I will have people
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  very hesitantly ask you write about this, do you actually believe in it?
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  And if I when I tell them, I'm open to the idea of it.
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  I love that then they feel comfortable sharing experiences with me that they've had,
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  they found kind of inexplicable, something that made them wonder, is there
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  something after this life? Is there something that comes next? Very cool?
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  All right, So I think there may be some people listening, and I
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  know there are some people in this room who are interested in writing on the
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  writing process, So let's talk about that for just a minute. Are you
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  a panser or planner? Oh? I'm a panser. I once raised one
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  of the famous authors I can't remember now what it was, who said she
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  writes a book to find out how it is, and that's what I do.
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  Really interesting, Okay, So what does your writing day look like?
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  What's your process? Walk us through that. Well, I'm retired now from
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  a real job. So I get a late okay, and I go to
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  the computer and start looking through my media social media, and that kind of
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  gets me focused in on the computer and so on, and then I start
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  writing and I write two hours and then the rest of the day I will
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  try to do some marketing stuff and promotion. But I find because I wrote
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  in the evenings before and had a limited amount of time, because they had
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  a full time job. I can't write more than about three hours at the
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  most. So do you ever find that you circle back in the evening?
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  Do you do you find that part of you still feels like that's your actual
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  writing time. So after you've got it down, you're done for the day,
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  unless I hadn't just really brilliant idea at dinner time and I want to
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  go in and add it to the book or whatever. Sure, where do
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  you find your inspiration? Or let me ask that differently, where do your
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  characters come from? Well that's a good one, of course. Vivian and
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  her sister Lauren kind of come from just being my sister and me. You
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  know what, you put elements of yourself and your characters in a while.
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  Yeah, I did have someone say that Eroshi, who was the main character
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  in my first three books, was me wanting to be a warrior woman,
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  which I wouldn't mind being a warrior woman, but that was not my goal.
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  I want I always do women as my main characters. I know more
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  about being a woman, and I think I want to give strong women characters
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  to people who want to read about what it's possible and that women can do
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  almost anything. They want to nice. So you've been writing for dare I
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  ask how long? It's been a little while. Probably thirty five forty years.
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  It's been a while, okay, So what have you picked up along
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  the way that you think you could pass along, Like, what kind of
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  good tips have you found that you could pass along for others? I think
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  one of the most important things for me, I realize, you know what
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  works for me. It does not work for everyone. But I think one
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  of the two of the most important things is finding a place to write and
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  always right there because when you sit down, you know what you're there for
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  and the time. Always write at the same time because your mind is used
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  to this. It gets used to this, and when you sit down and
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  it's at ten o'clock in the morning, it's time and you just sort of
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  fall right into the path of doing the writing for the day. Please cool,
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  And I do write every day. Yeah, one last question, what's
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  next? What are you working on next? I've already finished the drafting of
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  the next two Army Brat hauntings. So those two great about terrific series.
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  Yeah, oh, thank you. And I'm working on a thriller series which
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  you all have helped me with over this this cruise, which has been wonderful,
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  and another strong woman character who Tani, comes out of some weaknesses and
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  has to defend herself and take care of herself. And it takes place in
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  DC. And since I was an archifist, she's an archivist and she does
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  congressional papers for congressman and senators. Sounds terrific. Thank you, Thank you
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  so much for being on the podcast. Thank you for asking me again.
• 24:22
  The cruise is about to end. But I would be remiss if I did
• 24:26
  not mention that Writer Con the annual conference happens every Labor Day weekend this year
• 24:33
  that's September one through fourth in Oklahoma City. We've got more than sixty presenters
• 24:37
  lined up as I speak, probably more by the time the conference happens.
• 24:42
  This is the best roster of agents we have ever had, including movie TV
• 24:48
  agents and publishers and much more. Every year we have, I'm pleased to
• 24:53
  say, successfully helped connect writers with agents. And this year we're kind of
• 25:00
  doubling down on that and trying some new things, trying to innovate a little
• 25:03
  bit rather than simply imitating what people have been doing for fifty years. And
• 25:10
  if you register now, you can take advantage of the early bird prices,
• 25:12
  so why wait. If you want more information about it, visit our website,
• 25:18
  which of course is writercon dot com, and you can subscribe to the
• 25:22
  writer khon newsletter, which is free. You can join the writer kon Facebook
• 25:26
  group. Information about all of those things will be in the show notes for
• 25:30
  this podcast. All right, until next time writing, remember and I'll fail
• 25:38
  if you're right