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The First 30 Seconds: Why Active Shooter Response Must Change · Making Shooters Better

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the shooting at Parkland, the high school in Parkland, Florida, several years ago, that shooter shot eight people in the first 10 seconds.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: And in the Greenwood Mall in Indiana, that shooter shot five people in the first 15 seconds.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: So when someone's willing to shoot innocent people for no reason in a public place, and that collides with people who aren't expecting it, who are going to take several seconds to even realize what's going on and then react to it, uh, there's a lot of people getting shot.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the there's outliers, there's very fast shooters like Aurora and Dayton, and there's slow, laxadaisical shooters like Columbine.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: But the vast majority in the middle shoot at a fairly predictable rate, meaning they shoot victims at a fairly predictable rate.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: In the first minute, the average active shooter will shoot a new person every three to five seconds.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: There are active shooter instructors, and then there are people who have spent literally decades challenging the very foundation of how we prepare for these sort of attacks.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Ed Monk is one of those people.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: A retired Army officer, law enforcement officer, firearms trainer, author, and longtime researcher of active shooter events, Ed has spent nearly two decades studying what actually happens when the first shot is fired.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: And his conclusions are uncomfortable, because they challenge some of the most widely accepted response models in America.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, Ed is going to explain why the first 30 seconds matter so much, why the traditional lockdown and run-hide-fight doctrine will fail when seconds equal casualties, and why someone already on scene may be the only person capable of changing the outcome fast enough to matter.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: We're also going to get into the psychology of hesitation, why people misinterpret gunfire, why armed responders must understand their true shooting capability, and why there are no misses in a crowded public space, only hits and unintended hits.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Ed is a genuine pioneer in active shooter response training because he's willing to teach the part many programs avoid, that when innocent people are being murdered, effective preparation has to include the capability, mindset, and willingness to stop the violence as quickly as possible by any means necessary.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: The conversation may challenge what you've been taught before, and frankly, that's exactly why you need to hear it.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Let's roll the episode.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Ed, hello, and welcome to the podcast.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, thanks for having me on.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you joining me.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I know you're busy teaching literally all over the country, so I appreciate you carving out some time, mate.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure, any time.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the questions I ask every guest, because I'm curious, is when did you first start shooting?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I first started shooting probably at five or six.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh dad took I'm the youngest of three sons, and dad would take us out and we'd shoot a 22 rifle, and then that would then we could start squirrel hunting.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I grew up shooting guns uh mostly for hunting, a little bit of recreation, but there, you know, there would just wasn't a lot of ammo and money for that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't get into defensive shooting.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I went in the military when I was 18, but that's that's kind of a different way to use a gun.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't get into defensive shooting until probably I was in my 30s.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's when I started that path.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: So the squirrel hunting, did you actually cook, eat, and put that on the table?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we did uh here.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in southern Arkansas.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh big thing was deer season every fall, but we did squirrel, rabbit, quail, dove, and I think that's it.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't get into, I mean, it's it's it's a religion here in Arkansas, duck hunting.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: We never, my family never did that.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we never did turkey hunting, which is also pretty big here.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's funny because I did that with my kids.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: I had a rule you could shoot whatever you wanted, obviously within reason.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: But whatever you killed had to be eaten.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I do remember having squirrel on the grill outside on outside of a nice suburban neighborhood.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: And one of my neighbors came by and he's like, Oh, that smells good.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is it?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: And he came up on the deck.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And when we opened up the grill and there's two squirrels sitting there skinned, he's like, I have no idea what the hell I'm looking at.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: And of course it made us laugh.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: The kids are all like, This is just what we eat.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: We killed it, we're eating it.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: She was just a couple of stray cats in the in the neighborhood.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to get rid of it.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because they they look pretty gnarly when you actually put them on a grill after skinning them.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: But hey, simple rule.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, this is where food comes from.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna shoot it, we're gonna eat it.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that it taught him some valuable lessons.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty good.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you had a method to get every single hair off of a squirrel, uh uh, you are a better man than me.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I could never ever get it pre uh, you know, skin got to prep a squirrel to and it had not had any hair anywhere.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Just almost impossible.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Impossible.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I know you would spend a good five minutes after dinner just sort of picking a few stray ones out.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna jump in now.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: And given your expertise in the field we're gonna cover, this is something I I literally think everyone, particularly defensive shooters or or protectors, need what you teach.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: I really do.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna jump straight in with a very real hypothetical.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: The first shot has been fired at a public venue.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Could be a school, could be a church, could be a workplace.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: People are now literally dying in real time.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: Strip away the bloody policies, the acronyms, maybe even the response plans for most locations and tell us what is really happening in the first thirty seconds of an active shooter attack.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really bad stuff is happening in the first thirty seconds.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um someone who has very likely fantasized, drooled uh about this attack, been planning it for months and months and months, that's going to intersect with a crowded public place where no one expects it.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the places these attackers tend to try to target are places where the victims, once they start their attack, will basically act like roaches.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but if you're outside at a park and you pick up an outdoor trash can and there's roaches underneath it, those roaches will do one of two things.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: They'll they'll freeze or they'll try to scurry away.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and both are very easy to stomp, and and both are very easy to shoot.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: So a guy who's gonna show up with two to four guns, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, and absolute evil he's been fantasizing about for months, is gonna collide with a crowded public place where no one expects it.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when he starts shooting, many of the victims are gonna freeze out of denial and shock.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that is just gonna that's that's a condition where even a low-skilled, no-trained punk who stole the gun yesterday or bought it four days ago, barely knows how to load it and make it go bang.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Even those people can get a very high victim count in those early seconds where no one's expecting it.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a crowded place, so it's very easy to go from one victim to the other.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the shooting at Parkland, the high school in Parkland, Florida, several years ago, that shooter shot eight people in the first 10 seconds.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in the Greenwood Mall in Indiana, that shooter shot five people in the first 15 seconds.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: So when someone's willing to shoot innocent people for no reason in a public place, and that collides with people who aren't expecting it, who are going to take several seconds to even realize what's going on and then react to it, uh, there's a lot of people getting shot.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the there's outliers, there's very fast shooters like Aurora and Dayton, and there's slow, laxadaisical shooters like Columbine.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the vast majority in the middle shoot at a fairly predictable rate, meaning they shoot victims at a fairly predictable rate.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: In the first minute, the average active shooter will shoot a new person every three to five seconds.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the horrible ugliness of what's going on.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like uh if if your septic tank gets clogged up, there's no real hurry.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: You can call the professional in the pumper truck uh to come deal with that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if you flush your toilet in your house on Sunday night and it starts backing up, you can't wait on someone else to fix that because it gets worse every few seconds.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, fire spreads at a fairly predictable pattern and rate, and uh the active shooter is going to shoot humans at a fairly predictable rate until somebody counters him and stops his plan or he decides to stop.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that happens quite a bit, but it usually happens deep in the attack when he has the numbers that he wants.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what most people don't realize is there's a one to four minute delay in these attacks between that first shot and the first 911 call being heard by an operator of that jurisdiction.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that surprises a lot of people.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't they?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't understand.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why aren't people calling sooner?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the people getting shot at got other priorities.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so touching their phone is not their priority.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what about the people who aren't initially getting shot that are nearby that can hear it?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the human brain goes to where the brain's been before.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And most people have heard fireworks several times a year in public places.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: I know I have.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard a lot of gunshots in military career, law enforcement, and as a gun instructor.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I've heard very, very few, if any, inside a building with no hearing protection.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that that sound is going to be different for me.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one to four minutes.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: So most people think it's something else.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: The brain goes to something they've heard before, which is more likely than this.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then they finally feel safe enough to access their phone, unlock it, dial 911, wait for it to connect, wait for it to ring, all that.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: One to four minutes.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: The fastest one I have data on is Fairchild Air Force Base, 46 seconds from first shot to first call being heard.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And at least three school shootings, the first call was diverted.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: They were cell phone calls, and the cell towers sent them to the wrong 911 center.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they had to be listened to twice.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: They had to be listened to by the wrong 911 center, figure out this is not in our jurisdiction, and then transfer all that time.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: More people are getting shot.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And also, one of the things you already mentioned there was there's a potential that the attacker, when it begins, is going to have multiple firearms and probably a fair amount of ammunition.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it surprised me to read some of the stats before this interview that said they could have upwards and and perhaps even more than a thousand rounds of ammunition.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think five, or as of now, I've had a thousand rounds of ammunition.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thurston high school, a student who shot up his school, had 1,100, the New Life Church out in Colorado.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he had over 1,400 rounds and on him, not in the car accessible, but on them.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So people on this uh show probably are gun people.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: They know how much a thousand rounds of ammunition.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about 22 long rifle here.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: A thousand rounds of ammo is burdensome and inconvenient and uncomfortable, and you wouldn't voluntarily put up with that unless you had a reason, which is to shoot a whole lot of people.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So two to four is the norm for what they'll have with guns, and they'll usually have hundreds of rounds extremes.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Some have had a thousand and and many, if not most, if not all, in preloaded magazines.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: So what okay, the cognitive element of this is truly fascinating in that the freeze response, the runaway response, seems fairly clear-cut and self-explanatory.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: But the process of an individual who's not actually being shot at trying to justify and find a harmless reason for why there is sudden this sudden noise, the cacophony of shots going off in a building.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Expand on why someone might take four minutes to dial 911 as their brain tries to catch up with the reality of the situation.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, the the ones that feel physical fear, they're more concerned about running, hiding, doing whatever.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're not touching their phones.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: The people, you know, down the hall, out in the parking lot, that can hear the popping sounds, their brains will initially say the most often is fireworks.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, others, you know, it's slamming lockers at the school.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: The weirdest one I remember reading about, a teacher at Sandy Hook, who was weighed on the other side of inside the building, but far away from the guy shooting in the hallway, she said it sounded to her like someone was out in the hall crinkling an aluminum can, which is weird.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, construction on the roof.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: We have stackable chairs.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: I thought they fell over.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the brain goes to other things that in their mind is more likely.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then once they realize holy list of custom words, it's one of those active shooters, then they might have initially, well, I need to run, I need to do something else.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then eventually someone will get to a phone and call it.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, that what does that take?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Getting your phone out, unlocking it, dialing 911, waiting on the connection.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, one to four minutes.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all the things that people I think underestimate how difficult to do when their heart rate, the stress levels are all through the roof.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: They think, oh, I've used my phone a million times.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I won't have trouble unlocking it, potentially, putting in a passcode and then dialing 911.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the same thing with putting a key in a doorknob of a classroom or something.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I do that every day, you know, but not when you're under that much stress.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you've spent nearly two decades now studying these events.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: What did you discover that made you perhaps conclude that our traditional active shooter response doctrine may be trying to solve the wrong problem?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what is that problem?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is we're allowing these evil people to shoot us.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's the problem.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not solving it.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you know, if I wrote a book that said, hey, if your kitchen catches on fire while you're cooking, if you grab a fire extinguisher and put that thing out in 10 or 20 seconds, you'll have far, far less damage to your house than if you go find a phone, call 911, report it to the operator, they call the fire department, the firemen get up, of course they have to eat their meal, you know, and shower, and then get out to your house and put out the fire.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Either way, the fire gets put out.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: But there's going to be a lot more damage.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: No one would buy that book.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a blatantly obvious uh observation, but we still haven't realized that for shooting yet.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: That we're not factoring in the time for these active shooter attacks.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they'll say, well, we'll just call the cops.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you can do that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And let me show you a list of all public places, stores, schools, businesses, churches that called 911 and thought that call would stop the active shooter, and it will.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But by the time that call brings the cops there and the cops do the action to stop it, you're at 20 to 40 people shot.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's going to take one to four minutes for somebody to make the call.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then once that call is understood enough, that person's going to hit a radio button and tell every cop on dispatch we have a report of a shooting at XYZ location.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then the cops know about it, they have to travel there.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: By the time the cops get that radio call, by the time there's almost always over 10 people shot before the first 911 call is heard.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: There is normally plus or minus 20 people shot by the time the cops get the radio call about the shooting and where it is.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So now they have to travel there.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So one big thing most citizens don't understand is victim time is drastically different than cop time or police time.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Victim time starts when the first shot's fired.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cop time starts when they get the radio call reporting that attack, which could be one to four minutes after that first shot.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So now the cops have to travel there.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's driving if they're on patrol, running, walking if they're already on the property, such as a school resource officer or a cop at an outdoor festival or something like that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Then the cop has to get to the right address, to the right building.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: All active shooters aren't in buildings, but the vast majority start in a building or they start outside and transition into a building.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: They have to get to the right building, get in that building, and continue to aggress to find the active shooter to threaten him with deadly violence.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that system we've been using for 40 years usually gives us a victim count in the 20s and 40s.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh to me, that's unacceptable.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we as a country say it's unacceptable, but we keep on accepting it.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we try to focus, we do things, we try to focus, well, let's let's let's have these things, these technology to try to get the cops there 15 seconds earlier than they otherwise would.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm all for that, but that's just gonna make the victim count 26 instead of 29.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, let's why don't we work on the other end, not getting the cops there a little sooner, uh, so the victim count's not quite as bad as it's gonna be, but why don't we start it sooner?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So if you study the timeline of, again, fairly predictable.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: The only way to have a mathematical expectation of a single-digit victim count, which is what I think our goal should be, is zero to nine, he has to be stopped in the first 30 seconds because of his known shoot rate.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a guarantee, but it's about a 90% chance right now.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so then that's it, once we accept that, the ugliness, the uncomfortableness is pretty clear to most people.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: There is no way to call somebody who's not at the attack site when it started and get them here within 30 seconds.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's everybody understands that's impossible.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that leaves us with the conclusion that one of the victims, one or more of the victims, has to counterattack and stop him within that first 30 seconds.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just so blatantly mathematically obvious and non-negotiable and non-debatable, but we just we don't want to do it because it makes us uncomfortable.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Anything we're uncomfortable with, we outsource.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like cutting grass in the heat, you know, I get sweaty, I get grass clippings all over my ankles, so I'll pay some guy to come cut my yard.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like changing the oil in my car, I get grease all over your fingers, it takes a week to, you know, I go to a jiffy loop, I go to a place, and that's okay because nobody's getting shot every three to five seconds while I wait on those other people to do the jobs I don't want to do.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: But we can't outsource the counterviolence that's required, and we know that's required because when we call the cops, what we expect is they will show up and do violence, counterviolence against the active shooter.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: We can't outsource it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: We can't wait on that to be notified and show up.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have to do that, and that makes a lot of people very uncomfortable.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I found out.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the people that are planning for it uh generally have no experience in planning for violence.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they they don't want to think about it, they have no stomach for it, they have no training in it, so they look for an expert, they look for somebody else to tell them, and that's usually the government or a consulting firm, a training consulting firm.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and both of those will normally tell them, you're doing the exact right thing, just just hunker down and try not to be shot until the cops get here.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and that we see over and over that's a really bad plan.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because for the longest time, and I don't know how many years it has been now, the the doctrine has been run, run, hide, and then okay, as a last resort, fight.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's not fight and see if you can end the bloody threat yourself as soon as possible.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And actually the worst, and it's still um had out there by a lot of schools, unfortunately, is the lockdown, to where they don't even acknowledge there's a fight option.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's lockdown and try to survive, try not to be the ones that get shot until the cops get here.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: That is that plan is basically saying we're gonna take some evasive measures, we're gonna turn out some lights, we're gonna lock some doors, but you can shoot all of us you can find until the cops stop you.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: That is just a horrible plan that we see over and over again.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: That was the plan at Uvaldi, that was the plan at Columbine, that was the plan at Parkland, that was the plan at Sandy Hook.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because schools have plans they're comfortable with.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Schools have plans that work flawlessly every day the shooter doesn't show up.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: They drill really well.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: The lockdown drill, people love it for a lot of reasons.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: One is it only takes like 10 minutes.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I taught high school for four years, lockdown drill, lockdown drill, assistant principal in charge of security walks around with a clipboard, yep, lights out, yep, lights out, yep, yep, okay.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Lift the drill.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: We've successfully done another drill.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll hear the teacher say, Oh, we do a drill every month, we're ready for this.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're ready for to get slaughtered, is what you're ready for.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um the Parkland shooter in Florida, Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida, he shot 24 people in the first 90 seconds.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if you run the math on that, it's one new sh one new victim shot every 3.75 seconds, which is right at what we should expect.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: But 18 of those 24 people shot on the first floor were inside their classrooms behind locked doors, doing exactly what they were told would keep them safe.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: But the shooter just shot through three classroom doors into into the classrooms.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: He never entered a room.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: He just shot through the locked doors and hit 18 people.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that was only shooting into three of the 10 classrooms.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: If he'd have shot into additional classrooms, he probably would have driven the victim count up higher.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: So this lie that we keep telling the schools, and I was told as a brand new teacher, you keep your kids in the classroom and you keep that door locked and you'll be safe till the cops get here.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's an absolute lie.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yivaldi, he shot through both doors and walls because the walls were just drywall.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that it's just drills that sound good, that make us feel safe, that work perfectly with every day they don't attack, but it gets our kids killed on the day they do attack.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm here in Arkansas, you're in North Carolina.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine if you were a school teacher, brand first time at school, or imagine if your kids came home and told you, hey, today we went over the tornado drill at school, and that is when they announced tornado drill, we're all going to go up and get on the roof of the building and wait and wait there until the drill's over.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I would hope people would say, No, I'm no, I'm not doing that.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the worst thing you could do.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I would hope parents would go and demand at the school board that that be changed.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine if the fire drill, your kids came home and said, Hey, we we we got told what our fire drill is at school.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: If they announce fire drill, we stay in the classroom and we just wait to see what gets to us first, either the firemen or the fire, but we just sit in the classroom and wait on that.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I would hope.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Parents would revolt against that, but they're not doing it with the active shooter.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: They keep the lockdown drill.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next thing, at least run, hide, fight acknowledges that everybody gets to make a choice, which is good.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: They should.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: We just, as you said, we have to put fight first.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: In almost every case, it's well, it's the government has been pushing it as 40 years as run, hide, fight.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: All the major training consulting companies have have a different word, but they mean the same thing.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh get out, lock out, take out, but it means run, hide, fight.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: And they almost always say fight only as a last resort, which makes no sense.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you and I were in a room with 30 other people and someone came in the door and started shooting us, why would stopping him be the last option we consider?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't stopping him be the sooner somebody counterattacks him and stops him, the more the fewer humans get shot?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's the best for humanity.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Someone fighting quickly is best for humanity.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody doesn't have to fight.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: We only need one or two, and he's going to attack a crowded place.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: And out of that crowded place, there are a few people there mentally and physically capable of fighting.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: So let them tell them to thank you.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: By you fighting, you save other human lives.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we just have to put fight first, give everybody the choice because everyone's not mentally or physically capable of fighting.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so, okay, so you only have two choices, really, in most cases.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Go towards him and hurt him or get the hell away from him.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So are are you physically and mentally capable and willing to go fight him?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: If yes, thank you.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Please do.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not, then there's only one other choice, so your choice is made, and that's run, slither, backpedal, low crawl, whatever locomotion, get away from him.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third, I call it an option, almost never a choice, is to barricade.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: You would never stay put and try to barricade if you had the option of getting far away from the guy trying to shoot you.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: The only exception would be special populations, maybe a special ed classroom in a school, nurseries, daycares, hospitals, nursing homes, that you cannot expect them to be able to flee.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: But almost everybody else, and we all over the country, we have schools with policies that lockdown, you must stay in the building.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: You must stay in the building with the evil guy with 800 rounds and three guns trying to kill you.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's orderly and that that helps for accountability.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: When I was a brand new teacher, I was told to stay in the classroom and I'm like, I'm on the first floor.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: We have a huge window.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we run up and run?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I got told, no, that would take hours to get accountability of everybody if we if we told the kids to run.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you could account for them if they're all dead on my classroom floor, but maybe accountability on the day of the shooting is not what's the the uh the priority.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I call it opposite day.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: When I teach it, I say the attack day is opposite day.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is different on attack day.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Every other day, we're playing checkers.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: When the first shot's fired, we're now playing rugby.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a completely different day with completely different game and completely different rules.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, school, church, Walmart, we don't want humans to be violent against other humans on any other day.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: But once that first shot's fired of the attack, we want somebody to be not only a little bit violent, but horribly all in, ruthlessly deadly violent against this guy, and the sooner the better.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: On any other day, we don't want kids leaving the classroom or the or the school building or campus without permission.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: But once the first shot's fired, the rules have changed.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now we don't care where you are as long as you're not shot.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So just run.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Run like the wind.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll find you later.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody has phones, that's not a problem.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: But we have a different rule once the bullets start forming.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a real disconnect between the reality of the situation and the comfortable planning that goes into this will make us all feel better, even though it achieves nowhere near the actual objective of saving life, versus, okay, we're going to get uncomfortable now in our planning and figure out the best way to get constructively violent as quickly as possible.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we're looking for a particular mindset from those who already have a propensity towards being defenders.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody in the crowd says, no, enough of this shit.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hell no, I'm going to take it to them.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: We need more of that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why are we not getting that kind of training into the schools?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Is it simply because having a teacher say, I'm ready to defend, is uncomfortable because they teach our kids?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think the the damn barrier is?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's just clearly our society and it's more uh focused in schools that viol, you know, violence is never the answer.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it is.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in fact, uh a mentor of mine who unfortunately passed away in the last year, John Benner, uh, used to talk to he was a longtime cop, used to talk to schools about this.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when he was talking at a school in the Cincinnati area, and he's and he said, you know, you have to fight him.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: So pick up a wrench, pick up something, the superintendent stopped his presentation and asked him to leave and said, My in my school district, we will never advocate violence.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think she was speaking honestly.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think on the day of the attack, several of her staff would be screaming into the phone, screaming as loud as they could to get the cops here to do some violence on this guy.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: So on attack day, they clear, and you know, I've heard a lot of recorded 911 calls on active shooter days, and I've never heard one victim call and say, get the cops here, get the cops here, but you make sure those dang cops don't bring their guns because we don't want any violence here.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, they know violence is the answer.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's just a matter of time.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: You are you willing to do it in the first 30 seconds, or are you gonna wait four to twelve minutes for the cops to get here?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Schools are, you know, like it or not, we live in a lot of places where if your kid's sitting on the bench at recess reading the Bible on the playground and some bully comes up and kicks him in the back of the head onto the ground and gets on top of him and starts fighting him, and he fights the bully off, both of them are going to the principal's office, both of them are gonna get suspended.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Violence is not the answer, we don't allow violence.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: When clearly sometimes violence is the answer.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they want to hear anything except violence, even though they know in their deep dark in their heart they're gonna be screaming for someone else to come do the violence.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I tell when I tell them that the kids in middle and high school, the kids should be prepared to do the violence.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: That some of them can't, are you suggesting that kids fight the active shooter?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, well, no, not unless you want a low victim count, then yes.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're okay with 20 or 30 people getting shot, then no, the kids shouldn't do that.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I point out to them that it's STEM and Thurston High School, two of the nine times that schools in America were attacked by an active shooter and people with victims without guns counterattacked successfully and stopped it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, two of those times were students.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Would you have rather those students not done that and just let the person and Thurston's one of the times he had three guns and 1,100 rounds of ammo?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh had that 11th grader not tackled the guy and stopped him, that would have gone on for a long time.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we just had one in Oklahoma in May where the guy came in wanting to shoot a lot of people, a previous student.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the the principal tackled him with ended with one victim.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: The principal was shot in the leg during the struggle.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's it, one victim.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: When the guy came to have a high Columbine count.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, quick violence is the answer.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, from June 25 to May 26, in that 12-month one-year period, we had seven active shooter attacks that were stopped quickly by victims that were there.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Three of those times they were the victims were armed, four of the times they were unarmed.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I tell when I train, I say, what you fight him with is negotiable.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's optional.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: The fact you have to fight him is not mathematically debatable.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so the gun is by far the most efficient.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the average cop's got like ten tools on him or her when they come into an active shooter scene if they're in uniform on duty.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they got tasers and cuffs and radios and ticket books uh and and all kinds of stuff, all a pepper spray.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: I guarantee you which one they're gonna have in their hands when they go into an active shooter call.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because it's the best tool.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the only tool, but it's the best tool.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So if the gun is legal, then have it and be ready to use it.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: If it's not legal or by policy or decision, you're not gonna have it, then it doesn't excuse you from the responsibility and the requirement to fight.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So have the best legal tool there, which could be a baseball bat, it could be a half pot of hot coffee.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we've now run over two active shooters with vehicles.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the Ford F-150 is now classified as an assault truck.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we've had pepper spray once, at least once, I think.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: The most common used way for unarmed people to stop an active shooter is by simply tackling him, running aim and tackling.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's the most common.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: It works.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason unarmed people have been so successful at stopping people with guns, that doesn't make a lot of sense to some people.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: How in the world could somebody without a gun stop an evil person with three guns and 800 rounds of ammo?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: The two biggest reasons I think are A, so far, thank God, these attackers have not been Navy SEALs or MMA fighters or John, uh, you know, uh John Wick or Jason Bourne.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're not tough at all.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're not well trained, but they got a gun and they're willing to shoot people with it, so that kind of makes them king of the hill for a while.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is they're not expecting it.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you look, when we have them on video, when someone counterattacks them, they're completely surprised.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't have come here if they thought the victims would have counterattacked them.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: They'd have gone somewhere else.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And they walk back and forth, so they turn their back on you.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but a lot of people don't understand the importance of the doorway.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the Parkland shooter had a rifle that can shoot people at 500 yards.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if you hide on the back side of a doorway, he won't see you until he's a foot from you.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the, you know, the tactical importance of the doorway and the fact he's been shooting a gun inside, which means his hearing is crap.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: So running up from behind him, he's probably not going to hear you.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: And auditory exclusion works both ways.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so yeah, get the best, those that are willing and capable, if you bring in the best legal tool for you.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with a school in Iowa, and the principal said, all any staff member that wants it will buy you a baseball bat, and we'll put the school logo on it, so it's a spirit thing to have in the classroom.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Go, Eagles.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: But on opposite day, we're gonna crush his windpipe with it, we're gonna crush his skull with it.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: If he reaches his hand in the broken window to open the door, we're gonna break his arm with it.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the kind of uh it's rare in schools.
• 32:20
  unknown: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the kind of focus we have to have.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: I did a police department outside of Detroit a couple of years ago.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: We did two days to get all their cops because of their shifts, but we added a third day.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted to add a third day to bring the school district in, which is cool.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And before I gave my school pitch to the school, the superintendent got up and apologized about how he's so sorry we have to talk about something like this.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then he said, if this topic triggers any of you, and he used the word triggers any of you, you feel free to walk out the back door.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: No shame, you're free to leave.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to participate in this.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, hold on there, Sparky.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the parents by law have to send their kids to your people.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you let your staff get you know not participate in fire drills?
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: If that if that triggers them, do you let them out of other things?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because the active shooter's not gonna let your staff out of his attack when he shows up.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's just the administrative way we're treating this, and we're not treating it seriously.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Now there's definitely a disparity between the reality of what's gonna happen and the training somebody actually needs to then be able to counter it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it you're right, the outsourcing of that violence to somebody else makes civilized society feel, well, that's the way things should be, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's a hierarchy of responses, and it's not my responsibility to go.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: But you may not choose that responsibility and yet still find yourself first in line, first perhaps targeted, or more likely second or third, and you are the closest one at that exact moment to go.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: So why are we not giving that individual the training necessary and obviously a firearm being first because it's the grain the great counter in all of this?
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Accurate fires, you know, returning fire is the quickest way to stop that thing, rather than asking our people to, as you just said, get a bat and you know, hope you've got proximity to take a swing at someone whose personal weapon is something they can use at distance.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's so frustrating to me.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: I taught martial arts for a lot of years, and I also taught defensive and tactical pistol, that we seem so reluctant to want to take on the responsibility of being violent.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: We are in a civilized society and thus we must act civilized.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, we should, for the most part.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: But if you find yourself first suddenly facing a situation that was not of your choosing, but with very few options, the one or two or three options you have available to you should be the damn things you've trained in.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: So you know you can do them.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like Dr.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: April, you say you have to have a parking spot in your brain.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have thought this through, and that is that is a possibility.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when this happens under stress, your brain can go to a place it's been before.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, people need to decide whether I'm capable of this.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes we lie to ourselves.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, there's been unfortunately a lot of times where police officers uh failed to act.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I bet if you'd asked any of them in public, amongst other people, you know, if your active shooter happens, are you gonna get involved and stop him?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: They'd say, Well, of course, that's my job.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: But people need to ask this question of themselves when they're alone, looking in the mirror, and they don't have to impress other people.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, almost everybody knows that the school resource officer at Parkland High School did not go in even after he heard the shooting in the building.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Most people don't know that the next seven deputies that showed up didn't get within 50 yards of the building.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the five closest of the seven could hear the shooting inside because we have their body cameras that recorded the shots.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a mega mega church in Houston, Texas, uh, Lakewood Church, paid five off-duty cops to be there on Sunday for security.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: When the crazy lady walked in there and started shooting people in the lobby, four of the five cops hid.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: They backed up into door recesses, we have their body cameras and just hid while one of the five cops walked down there and did his job, found and killed the active shooter.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the problem is I don't people can identify, say I'm I'm I call them hornets, and I'm gonna be one of the fighters, and that's fine.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot to be said about skin in the game.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: If I work here, these are my co-workers, this is my school, these are my kids, this is my church.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: My parents go here.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: My my grandparents used to go here, my kids go here, my best friends go here, versus uh you pay somebody$30 an hour to come here and drink coffee on some easy overtime.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's something to be said for skin in the game.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we we have to let it so I think it's instead of paying somebody to be here for what 99.999999% of the time is not gonna happen.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Just in my eyes, it's a waste of money in most situations.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just take people who are already gonna be here and have skin in the game and equip them to the best we can.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: The gun is the best way, it lets you sh it lets you fight from a distance.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so people like, well, that you know, cops, I can understand cops, that's why we have cops, but not armed citizens.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, cops aren't gonna be there almost all the time, so the time factor comes in.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the your you know, armed school staff, armed church volunteers, they don't have police training.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Sparky, they don't need police training.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, shooting a gun is not a police specific task.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Cops drive cars, but they're not the only people that drive.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Cops talk on radios, but they're not the only Americans that talk on radios.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh millions of truckers do it all the time, just fine.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And cops carry and train with guns, but it's not a cop exclusive thing.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Humans without badges have been shooting large mammals with guns for hundreds of years.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's called hunting, and they still do it every year.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's just lining up two things and pulling a lever.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a police specific task.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very simple task.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: It takes some emotional control if you're doing it against a mammal that can shoot back.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: So armed citizens have not yet, now it could happen tomorrow.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's no reason why it couldn't happen, but an armed citizen has never shot the wrong person while shooting an active shooter.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Cops have shot the wrong person multiple times on active shooter calls.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Three of those times cops have shot each other by mistake.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Two of those three times they killed each other by mistake.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Borderline Barn Grill in Ventura, California, in Prince George County, Maryland, if you want to look them up.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't need police training.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Eli Dickon had no military or police training and really no professional gun training at uh Greenwood Park Mall when the active shooter started shooting people with a rifle.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: But he pulled his Glock 19 and shot and killed the guy.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Stopped the attack in 15 seconds with five five victims and five is bad, but he had three guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I uh Eli Dickon again had no professional training at all.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: He said, My granddad taught me how to shoot when I was little.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I suspect what his granddad taught him was line up two things and pull a lever, and he was able to keep his emotions under control and and do that just fine.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when citizens have such a right now perfect track record, it's hard to say, well, cops should be able to, but citizens shouldn't.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: When citizens not only have a better safety record and I would argue better accuracy record, but they're gonna be there and the cops almost never are.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's some exceptions, Greg Stevens being one, but yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think it's interesting, and it's also interesting to understand that although the firearm allows you to shoot defensively and offensively from a distance, there's still a psychological barrier for most people in taking a life and or having to inflict violence on another.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I would put this question that taught a lot of personal safety and a lot of situational awareness, and a lot of the women's groups, I would ask, okay, set somewhat hypothetical and unrealistic um situation where you you as a female have just been grabbed by some big hairy dude, he's wrapped you up in his arms in a bear hug and he's carrying you off to the root the you know quintessential 70s rapist van in the parking lot.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: How many of you, with the only tool available to you being your teeth, are capable and willing to bite off his nose, like biting off a carrot, snap through that thing, spit the lump out, and start headbutting the hole in his face.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the amount of people that would say yes to that is minimal, as you could probably understand.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: A few hands might go up, but the majority are horrified at the very thought of doing that.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, oh my God, I bit off his nose, there's a hole in his face, there's blood everywhere.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd be like, Yeah, but just keep breathing out, spit out the lump and go for it.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: And there would be no, usually uniformly, fairly consistently no in a large group.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd say, okay, I want you to now imagine that your eight-year-old niece or nephew is in the arms of this hairy ass, you know, dangerous dude, and you are in a position to do the exact same action, but in defense of this kid.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uniformly, you'd get upwards of nearly 100% in that group, say, oh, hell yeah, I'm taking his frickin' nose off, and I'm gonna punch that thing until he stops doing what he's doing.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, all we need to do psychologically, cognitively, is open the door to allow ourselves to be violent.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if that requires us to do it on behalf of somebody else, and that's the only situation in which we can sort of reconcile ourselves with the potential to be that violent, then so be it.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: But open the door on it and recognize that you are and will need to be capable of great violence in order to facilitate stopping the threat.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, make make that parking spot in your brain.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've already considered doing it, what triggers will make you do it, what you're capable of and what you're not.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think what you're talking about, what I heard you say, is the it's the mother hen.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, a little chicken hen is very docile, but you attack one of her chicks and they get they get uh, you know, what pulp fiction go medieval, right?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or Clint Clint Eastwood and Josie Wells just get plum mad dog mean.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think some people they have they have never experienced uh the possibility of close deadly violence against their own body.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: They see it on TV.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: We watch movies and TV all the time, but we can disassociate from that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when we say, Well, I don't think I could be violent, I don't think I could be violent.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, someone's trying to kill you.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this and as horrible as it might be for you physically to get attacked in a parking lot, um that what we're talking about with the active shooter is not just one victim that very bad things could happen to, but 20, 30, 40 victims, 102 in Pulse Nightclub, could get done to.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's even more important that somebody stand up.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just best for you, it's best for humanity because fewer humans will get shot the sooner somebody fights back.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I saw an interview with uh the cadets at Old Dominion University, which is one of the recent ones in the last year.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: They tackled that guy, they stabbed him with a knife, according to one cadet, uh they reached in and pulled one of his eyeballs out of his socket.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when you talk to people about biting their nose off, perfect, uh thumbing an eyeball out, they'll cringe and they're like.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if I say you know, the active shooter uh at Fort Hood shot 43 people, you don't cringe when I say that.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: But but popping the eyeball out of an evil person that wants to shoot 40-something people, we cringe at that.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's so what me what got me into this was in 2007 I retired after 24 years active duty in the Army, and I was an armor officer, so I was in units with tanks, and so planning for horrible, deadly two way violence is what we did.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's just wasn't emotional, it's just what we did.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Ten days after I retired, I started teaching public high school.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I had cultural whiplash, leaving a career of just honestly and non emotionally dealing with violence to a profession where we were darn sure not gonna do it, we're not gonna plan for it, we're not even.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Going to discuss it.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to outsource that to somebody else.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then they told me that best practices was to keep my kids in the classroom and wait to see if they would get killed or not instead of fleeing.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's what got me into it.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is horrible.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is stupid.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: Even the dumbest private in the army, and that's saying something, the dumbest private in the army knows if you're if someone's coming to shoot you, you don't bunch up in a group.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're making his job easier.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're making your enemy's job easier.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're making your death easier.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: You spread out.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what it's still most schools do best practices of the lockdown drill.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just absolutely crazy.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody's got to get violent.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody does it, but somebody does.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: First shot accuracy from a holster, whether that's outside the waistband or carrying concealed inside, comes down to one thing: reps.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: How many reps are you putting in each week?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't draw from either concealed or especially outside the waistband in less than a second and hit your target every single time, you have work to do.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: And when it matters most, you're not going to get a warm-up rep.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: Laser ammo gives law enforcement and responsibly armed citizens the tools they need to train consistently, safely, at home or at the department.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Five, ten, fifteen minutes a day could make all the difference in building your draw speed, building your first shot accuracy, and building your confidence that your performance will be there every single time.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Train more, train smarter, train with laser ammo.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Go to laser ammo.com to find out more.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: And now back to the episode.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we've spent a good amount of time talking about kind of what happens in that first 30 seconds.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: But in many cases, there are lots of warning signs that come ahead.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Research has revealed that individuals might be researching targets, studying previous attacks, preparing weapons, equipment, getting maps.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: There's often preceding communication with people around.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: So how often do we get warnings like that, pre-attack indicating behaviors that might and should set off alarms for people, but perhaps don't for whatever reason?
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not an area where I really study, but just looking at it on the periphery because of all this stuff we do.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really easy in hindsight to say we should have seen that.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: 20, 30 years ago, you know, Bethel Alaska High School would be, I mean, he told people about it.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: He got someone to come with him and video it for him.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they call it leakage, you know.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they'll they'll they'll say things, they'll do things to indicate maybe they'll do it.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: That in my opinion, and again, I haven't independently studied this, but it just, in my opinion, really, that doesn't happen a lot.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: What surprisingly does happen, which I can't explain with today's youth, because they know the internet.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they absolutely know technology internet, and they'll make just off the cup, well, I'm gonna come shoot the school up next Monday.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they don't mean it, they just say it in a fit of frustration.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, of course, once that's on the internet, it's there.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so now they've got felony charges.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't really mean to do it, but actually when they're serious about it, um, because again, we've only had three uh multiple shooter attacks at schools.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's two shooters, at least there's a possibility of intercepting or overhearing communication between the two.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: But vast majority of the time it's only one shooter.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So unless they're just really stupid, we normally don't see.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times we find it afterwards.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_00: They will put and so after after the after it's over, of course, now we know who the shooter is.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've killed him or we have him in custody.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: So now we'll do all the warrants to search all his electronic life and everything, and they'll find this post he made it two days ago on the internet.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go shoot, and they'll say, He we knew two days ago he was gonna do it.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was on an anonymous website under an anonymous name.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, no, we're not gonna be able to react.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: But people will say that I knew that was gonna happen.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: You knew that was gonna happen.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the uh the uh Orlando, the Pulse Nightclub shooting.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: He made some statements to some people, and they told the cops, and the cops went to investigate and question him about it.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: And he didn't say, Yeah, they're exactly right.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: I did say those threatening things.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: He's no that guy's I that guy I I started dating the girl that left him, and he's jealous, so he just, you know.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there were allegations, but it takes more than that to take action.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so now I hear when I go, I go to a lot of conferences about this, and I'll hear other speakers, and they'll talk about how we can predict and stop these things.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we we stop a few, and I'm all for that.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: But they'll say things to look for, you know.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: Does he talk a lot about guns?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Does he draw pictures of guns?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sitting there looking like, oh now you're gonna that's all I did growing up.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: So now you're gonna target me because I draw guns and talk about guns and read hunting magazines.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: So now I'm gonna be on a threat assessment for this.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I call it bookends.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: We love spending time, money, and effort on the bookends, but not the books because we're uncomfortable with the books, so we spend time on the bookends.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: We spend a lot of money, time, and effort on training and products for what do we do before the first shot, before the attack starts.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where the threat assessment and the security audit and all these other things come in.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other half, the other side of the books is what do we do after it's over?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: The reunification drill, the searching, the all the that's mostly police action.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but we don't talk about what do we do in the first 30 seconds after the first shot, because that would require us to talk about counterviolence.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then after I gave this at one police conference, literally like a week later, I got a text, or maybe it was an email, from one of the school resource officers that was in the conference.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he he took a picture of the slide.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, here I am in a two-day class learning how to fill out a 12-page threat assessment form that will not save one life uh in the active shooter world.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what we feel comfortable with, filling out forms and buying products that won't help.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if if if they're stupid enough, if if they're uh unlucky or stupid enough, if mom cleans up under the bed and finds a map of the school and guns and ammo that she didn't know about, yeah.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's again, occasionally we will catch people, but I don't think there's as much leakage and predetermination as I keep hearing about uh at conferences from people that talk about.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: She's really fascinating because even the Secret Service pushes that type of bookending and planning and strategizing with what communication has been leaked, you know, how far ahead was it, who was listening, why has someone who heard a what could be construed as an overt threat explained away as harmless?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the things I I took a Secret Service um class on threat detection and what other things we should be looking for, and communication ahead of the event was one of the primary signals that we should be looking for.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I don't put as much importance on that.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um I do tell on I was at a conference one time and a psychologist gave a presentation that made some sense to me.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: He said there's three, you know, there's all kinds of reasons people do this.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: But he goes, the three big ones he saw.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: One was from the shooter's perspective, a series of losses or grievances.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: So wife left me, lost my house, lost my job, uh, you know, just a series of losses.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm done with life, but instead of just committing suicide, I'm gonna make the world feel my pain, right?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of so I tell the schools, you know, if you have a kid, troubled kid, he's you know been in trouble several times, you know his girlfriend left him, he's failing two classes, and you you had to suspend him for something he he did.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe when he comes back, you know, uh just don't follow him around.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: But hey, I would do this as a teacher.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: If I knew a kid was going through something like that, now he did wrong, right?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Come back and say, hey man, how you doing?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get this thing started again.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's forget the past, let's have a positive, and just try to bring him back into not let him hang back with his past actions and how bad his life felt at the time, but try to bring him back in and get more positive.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because one of the things that they say is alarming is they're not just someone expressing a desire to kill others, but someone who expresses a desire to kill others and also has no intention or no belief that they will make it out of the attack they intend to perpetrate.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's uh, you know, active shooters are a subset of all violent criminals, but in the in one way, they are drastically different than almost all other violent criminals.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Other criminals right now in a jail or a prison cell are saying to themselves, crap, I screwed up.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Something went wrong.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't mean to get caught.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: I somehow something went wrong.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: I got caught, I'm here.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the active shooter, almost all of them, knows and plans.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: When they fire their first round of their attack, they will end that day in the morgue or in custody for the rest of their life, which makes no sense to rational people.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so many of them are young.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um El Paso and the Buffalo grocery store shooter were both in their mid-20s, and both of them plan to shoot a bunch of people, and then when the cops showed up, give up.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: So their plan is I'm I'm mid-20s, unless there's something premature.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna spend the next 40, 50 years of my life in a maximum security prison on choice.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: By choice, it makes no sense to us, but shooting a lot of people doesn't make a lot of sense to us.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll hear things about we need to bring back the death penalty for, you know, active shooters.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not trying to go one way or other on the death penalty, but I'm just saying, dude, most of them give themselves the harsher penalties are not gonna help in any way for the active shooter because they they plan on being in prison for the rest of their life or getting killed or killing themselves.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to treat them different.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's still the application of rational thinking to that process that if we put in more harsh penalties, that will off-put that this individual is not rational in their thinking anyway.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: And they're planning on dying in most cases, if but not by their own hand in a you know, a blaze of you know, quote unquote glory with law enforcement.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's us trying to rationalize because we can only look at it through the lens of our own personal bias.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And again, people have no training in actual violence, so they just take policies or recommendations by the government or consulting.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: So they have cookie cutter, one size fits all, bumper, sticker, slogans.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: Lock all doors for safety.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that really isn't what we should do in all cases.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Another one's security cameras, right?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, man, after you've already a bunch of schools spent a whole bunch of dollars on security cameras, upgrading their security cameras.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: Security cameras will help for almost all other discipline problems because those people don't want to get caught and they don't want evidence against what they did.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the drug dealer, the bully, the vandal, all those other problems schools have, security cameras are a good thing.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: The active shooter wants to be on camera.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's doing this to get media coverage.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: He wants to be.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: Channel 7 needs something to play tonight, and then one of the new trends is they're not happy relying on your cameras, so they either wear a GoPro camera or they live stream with a smartphone in one of their magazine pouches of their vest or their front pocket shirt because they want good footage of their shooting.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: So people say, I go to talk to schools, they say, well, after Yivaldi, after Park, you know, we got really good cameras.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it won't help a bit.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: And way, way over 90% of middle and high school shootings in America so far have been the shooter, has been a current student of that school, almost always.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they'll say, Oh, we got look, we've hardened the doors.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: We have film on the glass, we have these super locks, these you know, a nuclear bomb cannot detonate that lock.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're safe in here.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're a middle or a high school, your shooter's already in the building.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: You sent a bus to bring him in the building, and now all that super door is going to do is keep the EMS and cops out.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're not thinking through what's actually coming.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: We just have lock all doors for safety, better security cameras.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: That we're not thinking it through.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: They won't help at all, and in some cases they'll hurt.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, in your opinion, what kind of training should we be providing to the individuals who are most likely going to be first as the a responder to an incident like this?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking about armed or the people there who may or may not be armed.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my my presentation for I call it considerations for armed responders to active shooters.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then that is about 80% of my law enforcement presentation.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because what we what do we want cops to do?
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Get in there and shoot them with your pistol.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what we want armed citizens, armed school staff, armed church volunteers, etc., to do.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of the subtopic or subtitle of that I call rule four, round two, and the monkey, because those are uh some of my big uh topics there.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: Rule four.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: As we train it here, rule four, safety gun rule four is be sure of your target and what's in line with your target.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the first part of that, be sure of your target, and an active shooter response, I don't think's gonna be a problem.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my my my dear father who passed away some time ago, he would have said that'll stand out like a nun in a whorehouse.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's not a calculus problem.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: That would be a dude in a public place holding a gun, very likely a long gun, because most of them start with a long gun.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that that won't be hard to figure out.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: But that second part, what's in line with him, is a huge problem that we're not training for.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about rule four.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you take a gun class, they're gonna cover rule four.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then what are they gonna do?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: After you talk about it, they're gonna take you out to a range where we eliminate rule four.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're not used to dealing with the fact that we could have things on the other side.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um difference on now, I'm not saying we shouldn't train on ranges, we have to, but we we have, I think we've got to do a better job of making sure our responders understand the difference.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you've taken a gun class or if you've had to shoot a qualification as a cop or for a conceal carry license or whatever, uh, you know, on a range, you're told from where to shoot.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: The instructor or whoever says you, everyone on the three-yard line, everybody on the five-yard line, okay?
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: That is an arbitrary administrative requirement.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do it, do the best you can.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: But in a real gunfight, you decide.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a responder, you decide from what distance to shoot.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think the vast majority of the people out there carrying pistols with and without a badge lack a piece of knowledge they need to know.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that is how far back from a humanoid-sized silhouette target can you guarantee every trigger press you take is a solid center hit in the torso.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: They just know I shot a 92 in qualification.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: I met the minimum standard.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: I did this.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: But what we need to know is, because in qualifications and gun classes, the range Nazi, the instructor, tells you at what distance to shoot.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: You do whatever they tell you to do.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: Get on the 25-yard line.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: 25-yard line is too far for some people.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: So they tell you to shoot six rounds and you get four.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: You hit four of the six, so you're happy.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can still qualify with that.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, on the range, we talk about hits and misses.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: They put up a target, they tell you to stand here, shoot at that target, you either hit it or you don't hit it.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we talk about those in terms of hits and misses on the range.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_00: In a public shooting, there are no misses.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: There are only hits and unintended hits.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everything is a hit.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I know there's both indoor and outdoor ranges, but I tend to just talk about outdoor ranges for simplicity, right?
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's a 12-foot wall of dirt behind that target.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: So no matter how well you hit or don't hit, uh, the bullet is going to be safe.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's in a wall of dirt, but that's not the way it is in a public shooting.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, for an active shooter, by definition, they are going to start their attack in a crowded public place.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: So wherever you're standing as a responder, if you hold your finger out and twirl around 360 degrees, there are people that don't need to be shot.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people that don't need to be shot, but there's one that does.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not used to that environment.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: On a range, there is a safe area between your left limit, right limit, everything down there is a safe area.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: In a public shooting, there are no safe areas at all.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not used to operating them.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to transition the paradigm from I try to hit this cardboard target, but whether I do or I don't, I know the bullet's going to go through that and end up in a wall, to I am shooting a three-dimensional human.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: And because I have no control over what's behind him, I have to guarantee all my hits are solid hits with good hollow points that stay in the body.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to start stressing if if I tell you from where to shoot, if you're doing some artificial thing that the instructor makes up, do the best you can.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: But in a public shooting, you do not pull the trigger unless you can guarantee a solid hit, a hundred percent solid hits.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I get some resistance there.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Ed, 100%.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's a little unrealistic.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Your 14-year-old daughter is in her high school cafeteria.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: When the SRO comes in there to shoot an active shooter, what percentage solid hits do you want that SRO to get?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's at least 100 if my 14-year-old daughter is behind him.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's got to be that always.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we tell our students you shoot that first round, not like you have a 17-round mag, but you have a you have a flintlock.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_00: You have a one-shot flintlock pistol.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's you shoot that first round like that's all you got.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you shoot all your rounds like members of your family are standing right behind him.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm talking about the ones you like, not those other members of your family.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: You must guarantee every hit.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: That is gonna require a lot of emotional control.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh we what we teach it is any any gunfight's gonna have a high level of fear and stress, right?
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because you could get physically hurt.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're a responder to an active shooter, there's an additional higher level of stress because not only I'm fixing to go find this active shooter and there's some physical danger there, but every few seconds I haven't yet found him and haven't yet engaged him, another human is getting shot.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: The only reason I would go put myself at risk against this active shooter is to save innocent life as I'm moving towards him.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I hear a pow, a shot, that's a that's a failure on my part.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: There's another human that just got shot because I'm not there yet.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: So the way we teach it, and this is the monkey, it's the stress.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be a monkey on our shoulder screaming, go, go, go, go, go.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can't get there fast enough.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and a cop in a car driving to an active, he, he or she, in the three to 12 minutes it's gonna take them to travel there, they know in their head there are people right now getting shot because I'm not there yet.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: So what we say is you have to listen to the monkey initially because he's right.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot get to the active shooter once he started fast enough.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because every few seconds a new human's getting shot.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: But once you turn the corner, once you see the active shooter, you have to tell the monkey to shut up.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because at that point, the monkey's gonna transition from hurry, hurry, go, go, to there he is, shoot him, there he is, shoot him, there he is, shoot him.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: And no, that could cause you to shoot at a greater distance than your skill has the ability to get hits.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you're within your skill distance to shoot the shoot more rapidly than you could get hits at that distance.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: So the monkey is gonna talk you out of your skill.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: We show a lot of videos of people doing this, and a lot of times in the training world, people say, Well, those people aren't trained, they need better training.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think in many of the cases, the person had adequate training, they had the ability to get the hits at that distance.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, at 15 yards, I can probably guarantee you chest hits at pow, pow, pow.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: At 15 yards, I can't guarantee hits at pow pow pow pow pow pow pow pow pow.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the monkey will tell you to do.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: So in a lot of cases, these responders, cops and non-cops, they had, if they'd have kept control of their emotions and either either got closer or slowed down their trigger press, they would have got hit.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the monkey.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: Good monkey initially telling you to hurry up, but bad monkey once you see them.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: And rule four, there could be people behind the active shooter that you can't see for many reasons.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: One is just stress.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: You turn the corner and saw the active shooter, you're not going to take a lot of time to look back there and see what there is.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: You turn the corner and the active shooter is up against a wall, and there's nobody between you and him, and he's up against a wall.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_00: 100% perfect safe shot.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, most interior walls aren't bulletproof.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_00: There could be a classroom of kids.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the famous case of the mall out in California where the cops entered and shot the guy that needed to be shot in the clothing store, but their AR rounds overpenetrated and they hit a 14 or 15-year-old girl in a dressing room right behind him.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they couldn't see her because she was behind a wall.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, but for all those reasons, it seems to me the safest thing is, again, if you're in training following an instructor's directions, do whatever they tell you to do your best.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: But in a gunfight or in scenarios that we do, you do not press the trigger unless you can guarantee every single shot.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of uh rule number four and round or the monkey, and then round two.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're our pistols are capable of stopping every active shooter.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: I show 26 uh attacks where the active shooter had a long gun, a rifle, or a shotgun, and were stopped by a copper citizen with just a PP pistol.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: The the pistol can do the job.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's adequate, it can work.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but don't expect it to do it on the first shot.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's only a couple of active shooters that were d put down with one pistol shot.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: So what we train in all gunfights is the first goal of that gunfight, once it goes kinetic, is to win round number one of that fight.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: And round Number one is putting him on the ground.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: Once you've done that, congratulations, but don't start giving high fives and holster up and call the mayor and ask when your parade's gonna be, because there is often around two.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: But first you have to get your mind that don't shoot them once and say, Man, I know I hit him.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why didn't he go down?
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because most of them don't.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're carrying a nine millimeter, you have a D-Walt cordless portable drill, and the drill bit is 0.36 inches, and all you're doing is going, zzz, you poked a hole in him.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: And poking holes in people don't normally drop them on the ground.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you carry a by God man caliber, it just means the bit on that drill is just a little bit bigger.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: So of course, Jack Wilson shot his guy through the brain, that put him on the ground.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: Vic Stacy shot the guy in the thigh with a 357, that put him on the ground.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: But in most cases, it takes multiple hits from a pistol to put them on the ground.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: So get used to that.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: Don't freak out if you know you hit him once or twice and he doesn't go down.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_00: Even without a vest, it normally takes two to eight.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: So get used to that.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you put them on the ground, a lot of them are very inconsiderate and they want to keep fighting.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: Either they shoot at you from the ground like Vic Stacy's guy, or they get back up and keep shooting.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we show videos of both of those.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_00: So once you put them on the ground, you won round one, then quickly transition to where is the best place I could possibly be if this fool wants to keep playing with me and get always get ready to play round two.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the biggest things I can tell them.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is and just and it's very simple to say, do not pull the trigger unless you can guarantee the hit.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I do understand that's gonna be you'd have to have a very high level of emotional skill.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, Eli Dickens shot his guy in the mall and while the guy was walking at 43, two hits at 43 yards, four hits at 22 yards, and his last two hits were at eight yards.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_00: No professional training.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_00: But but he apparently he knew how to line two things up and pull a lever and keep the monkey under control and do that.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but as you probably know, there's videos of people shooting multiple rounds at each other from three yards away and no one's hitting anybody because they're just pulling the trigger really, really fast and not paying attention to the bumpy things on top.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's two things I'm particularly interested in what you said there.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_02: When somebody says, perhaps after the fact, I fired the A shot and I know that shot hit.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: Do they?
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: Are they confident enough in their skills to know that shot actually landed where they think it landed?
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you shoot someone in clothing, there's no Hollywood spurt of blood.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there may well not be a reaction.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to know that that shot hit.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: And something I uh had a discussion with another instructor who uh taught firearms law enforcement, he would put t-shirts on his paper targets so that it was very difficult for officers to see where those shots were hitting.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like they had to be competent and confident enough in their skills to know my sight alignment was good, my trigger press was good, I know it hit.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_02: Even if the target didn't respond, those hits were hitting.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's nothing worse than the stress of having to do something like this and engage a threat and then second guessing whether your shots are hitting.
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_02: And now you start trying to change the sight picture or you aim off because you think, well, maybe I didn't hit because there was no reaction.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_02: You have to know deep down in your soul that your sight picture was good, your trigger price was good, and that even if the target does not drop, as we would love them to do on one shot, that you are hitting the target you are shooting at.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other thing is teaching people in a defensive scenario the difference between switches and timers.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hitting someone in an area that is a switch and hitting someone in an area that events eventually causes trauma, but they're on a timer to actually being incapable of fighting and understanding that physiology.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so when when we do our three-dimensional scenarios, we use three-dimensional mannequin targets uh that if I tape them and prep them correctly, uh, somewhere between one and six pistol hits will normally drop the target.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, if you're shooting at a paper target as a student, as soon as you get through with the drill, everybody does the same thing.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Where are my holes?
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, where do my holes are relation to everybody else's holes, right?
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when they go in and do the scenario and they shoot dude to the ground and then play round two, because sometimes we'll have them engage.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Then when I finally say holster and we start the after action of you, of course, the first thing they want to do is go up there and my dummies have shirts on them and sometimes hoodies and sometimes tack vests, right?
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing they want to do is run up there and pull the shirt up.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, that's the last thing we're gonna do.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me about what were you dealing with as you came in, because we pipe in the sounds of shooting, screaming, fire alarms going off.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what what decisions did you make?
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: What confused you?
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: How did you fight through the confusion?
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then, okay, I saw him, and then what'd you do?
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then we'll say you say, then I engaged him.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: How confident were you in your sights and trigger?
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: We'll ask, and we tell them ahead of time, we're gonna ask you that because we want them to try to call their shot.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times they're fairly they're fairly honest.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_00: They'll say, Oh, the first one, I don't even know if I looked at my sights.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_00: That first one the monkey got to me, but then I calmed down and I got good hits.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: The last one I think I might have pulled a little low into his, you know, his torso.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we try to train them to do that, to actually know where their dot or their sight was when the gun went off.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if if they think or they know one or two hits and he didn't go down, don't let that freak you out because a lot of times they they don't go down on the first hit.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've probably I don't know if you've seen the little short deputy backing up, shooting the guy 12 times point blank in the torso before he finally drops.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said, one of the first two or three bullets could have ripped through something in that dude's chest.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_00: He there's no saving him.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna die here in a in a minute or two.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the the time it takes that to bleed out, to lose consciousness, to go to the ground.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's and then the the the famous one in the mall where they shot him, I think, five times and he fell down, laid down there for I think 11, 12, 13 seconds, got back up and walked away.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, don't know how many it'll take to win round one and always, always, always be ready for round two.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it seems to me that there's definitely a a split here, a divide between the wishful thinking style training that most people are participating with and the reality base that is uncomfortable but necessary.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: So as far as getting training with you, having you come in, whether that's to go to the range or do both or or have the classroom time, where do you want people to go to connect with you?
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um my email is my name, Ed Monk, E D M O N K at AOL.com.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, AOL is still in business.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And just because I still have the address, it it doesn't mean that I have a rotary cell phone, all right, and that I still carry phone a single action army pistol.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I still have AOL.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um 870-27313 is my cell.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I travel all over the country probably two to five trips a month now.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh mostly what I do is presentations.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I speak to cops, churches, schools, or conferences for cops, churches, and schools, some some businesses, but not a lot, on the threat to them and how to do better in planning and prepping for that.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Most of what I do is lecture.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do some gun training.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_00: The one day I call active shooter basics.
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh again, when we go to the range, we do some other drills, but the biggest thing we do on that day, what I think is the most important is what I call the fade back drill.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're all going to start at the five-yard line using an eight-inch chest circle, and we're going to shoot 10 rounds.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not 10 rounds at once.
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_00: I call them out randomly.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: One, two, one, three.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_00: When you shoot 10 rounds, we stop.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_00: If all of your shots are in that eight-inch circle, congratulations.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_00: You've graduated the five-yard line.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now move back to the seven.
• 1:13:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you graduate the seven, we move to the ten, then to the twelve and a half, then to the fifteen.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be called the everybody misses drill because everybody will do 10 rounds until they reach a distance at which they miss.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the the and and that hurts a lot of people's feelings.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_00: In my instructor level classes, instructors hate to miss in front of us.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_00: But every everybody, you won't know where your limit is until you miss.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So then if I missed, if I threw my first round at the 20-yard line, that means 17 and a half right now, with my current skill and this current gun.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I have right now that's my distance.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we do that fade back drill, and then we have them, we tell them to bring 10 rounds of their carry-duty social hollow point ammo, and then everybody goes to their max distance, whatever that was for you, and you shoot your 10 rounds, and we want to see where your hollow points you carry, how how that groots and where it hits in relation to your training ammo.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh days of two or more range days, uh, act active shooter responses for the user, active shooter, instructor for instructor level.
• 1:14:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we get into the 3D mannequin targets and stuff.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I travel with that very rarely because that requires logistically a bunch of three-dimensional.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_00: It requires at least two bays because I limit that to ten people, ten students.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because once we go into individual scenarios, I've been in classes that I paid to attend where you shot a scenario for two minutes and then you sat around for an hour waiting on everybody else to go wasting your time.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not going to do that.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we have we'll have two instructors, me and another, and we'll run simultaneously two bays at once.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it takes two bays, it takes an additional assistant instructor that I trust can run the scenarios well.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_00: I very rarely uh train that.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Farms Academy of Seattle bought a fleet, uh, big church and private school out in Phoenix bought a fleet.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: South Dakota Police Academy bought a fleet.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So if I go to a place where I have a trusted AI and they have the range facilities and those three-dimensional targets, I'll drive.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can carry on two or three hours away.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_00: But mostly what I do when I travel are the presentations.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I have a general one that talks about attacks everywhere.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I have one just for schools, one for churches, one for cops, and then one the considerations for armed responders, which is the other one that I talk about.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's absolutely fantastic.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't think of training that is more in need, because given what is being taught, generally speaking, there is this fantasy about how they should respond, and everyone has bought into it.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the reality is it should probably be a very different preparation planning and uh even tactical response that is ready to go with the right people in the right place, as much as that is possible.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for coming on here today, and I really do hope people bring you in for this training because it's literally life-saving.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so most people out there, most armed citizens, are training for the mugger, what we call the parking lot experience.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what they you should spend, because that's you know 90 plus percent.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you ever have to use your gun outside the home, that's gonna be it.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the importance of getting hits is just as important on the mugger, but by the time you realize that dude is trying to mug you, you're gonna be two to five feet away from him.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you can miss at two to five, but you're always within your skill distance.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to make that assessment.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Am I close enough to engage a mugger?
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_00: You you always are.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you go responding looking for an active shooter, again, that's another difference.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, none of your audience is walking around a Walmart parking lot looking for a mugger to shoot.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Where's a dang mugger?
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Where's a mugger?
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Have you seen a mugger?
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_00: But if you choose to go respond to it, you that's what you're doing.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're moving towards the evidence, trying to find a guy to shoot.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what you're doing.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a completely different fight.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_00: If people want to know what I say, my presentations, my book, First 30 Seconds, is out there.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_00: It sold over 8,000 copies now.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's been out for just over a year.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's on Amazon, uh, Kindle, paperback, or hardbook.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_00: So buy first 30 seconds, and you can see part of what we've talked about here, but but more stuff as well.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_00: This was great.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thanks to everyone who tuned in for this episode.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably one of the most important episodes you've ever tuned into.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't already, don't forget to like, share, and we appreciate your support.
• 1:18:06
  SPEAKER_02: So until next time, thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you again soon.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Cheers.