Latest / WoT Spoilers / A Storm of Light & A Good Soup - Towers of Midnight chapters 23-33 - EP565

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A Storm of Light & A Good Soup - Towers of Midnight chapters 23-33 - EP565 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time spoilers poodcast and we
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: do a Storm of Light by the guy who did
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the Stormlight Archive.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: So original, Oh my god.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Everything is stolen from the Wheel of Time.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: There were no books before the Wheel of Time.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: There were no books before the Time Wheel Time is
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: not based or a remix of anything else that came before.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: It, completely original from one man's head. Absolutely.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I always think a Wheel of Time as being so
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: good because it incorporates so many different myths and legends
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: from so many different cultures and brings them together in
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: a way that like you feel like you've read Wheel
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: of Time. It feels like you've read all of those books.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Right, It's like why work smart or why we're card
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: and you can work smart? All the greatest artists copy right.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, People like real Time's so long, it's fourteen books.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Why would I read so much? So you don't have
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: to read anything else? Right, Like, you're done, You're good.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: That's all you've read those fourteen books. You've read Western literature,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: You're good, done.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, totally, You've gotten a one oh one level
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: smattering of the whole world of things, Like you know
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: something from every continent that people have been on at
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: this point. Congratulations.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: And so we start with a return to Etereralda and
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: him sort of this saga of defending the city outside
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: than getting let in and then defending the gates. The
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: gates have been broken through, and now he's sort of
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: in the city using it as this guerrilla warfare battlefield.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Now he's no longer focused on saving the city. Now
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: he's focused on destroying the trolls as thoroughly and slowly
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: as possible, using the city as an expendable resource. It's
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: a completely different strategy and it's much more of a
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: war of a trish and he's losing a lot less
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: people per encounter, but he's also literally destroying the thing
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: that he was originally trying to defend.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: And he's losing his people.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: There's no winning tactic here. It's just bleed them and
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: last as long as you can till you're dead.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. This is literally it's kind of like what the
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Blood Knives are doing honestly to you know, jump ahead
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: to the next chapter. Like the idea of the longer
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: we can hold out and the more of the enemy
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: we can kill, the more dearly our life was spent
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: and that is the point. We're not going to get
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: out of this. We're simply going to destroy everything we
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: can on the way out.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: And then there is this moment where the palace is
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: packed full of shadow spawn and they put a bunch
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: of oil in the basement and lighted a fire, and
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, sircy, right is that dragonfire? Right? Like
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: basically exactly out of I feel like it's almost an
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: homage to a Game of Thrones there. I mean, I
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: don't it's a little too far away, but it's close enough.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Well, in fairness, trollucks actually deserve to get dragonshired in
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: a way that the citizens of King's Landing did not.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean the idea of put all your
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: enemies right over a bomb is classic. It's classic despotic
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: warlord behavior.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: And yeah, and I don't know what it is about this,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: like everything about Yoeli and the defense of the city.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Like if you remember in Misborn, there's a point where
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: the city is overrun. I think it's booked two of
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: the Misborn trilogy.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Sounds right.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe the destruction of that city and the description of
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: it being overrun and they had the coloss come into
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: that city and this is the trillus and like it
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: just it feels like you could just one to one
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: substitute and the invasion of the city and the horrors
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: that happened and the way they defend it and everything.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Like again, Sanderson, it might not be the same writing,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: but it certainly rhymes.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. When I read Miss Bourn trilogy one the one
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: time I read it, Yeah, it it did keep it
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: did keep feeling like a collage of things I recognized
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: from Wheel of Time, like cut up and put together
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: a little bit differently, you know, tralloc co loss, So
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: different words, such different words, obviously very different words. Also
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: the same word, like, let's be honest, like it has
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: the exact same mouthfeel. So it's it's like orc and trollock, Like, yeah,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: they're different words, but they're the same word. You can
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: feel the muse behind all of them. And yeah, this
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: whole section, I hadn't really quite thought of it so
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: much when I read it at that time, But now
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: you're saying, it's like, oh, yeah, he did, he really did.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: Just Okay, whatever, it's fine. It's a burned out city
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: full of monsters. It's only so many ways to write that.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: And I should say mis Bourne was written first, right,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: because miss Bourne existed when he was picked to write this.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: So this is a collage of Born stuff.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: It feels that way. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Except I read them in the other order, because I
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: didn't read miss Born until after he had done what
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: I cared about with Wheel of Time. I never heard
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: of Brandon Sanderson until Realift Time, so I read Misborn
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: after because I was like, oh, what's this guy done?
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it felt like there was little bits and
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: pieces of Wheel of Time. Now I'm learning that that
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: was an artifact of my order of exposure. But whatever,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: The point is, the man knows how to recycle a
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: good bit and also a mediocre bit.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Because he had written at that time Alantris, the first
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Misborn trilogy, and Warbreaker, or his five books that existed
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: when he was given the series. Now he claims he
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: wrote a bunch of books that he never published, you know,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: because I think he was told in his career, right,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: your first five or ten books suck, right, So he
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: wrote five or ten books, didn't publish them, and then like,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: try to publish the eleventh, is what he claims.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, if he started writing in middle school, we're
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: probably all better off not having read the first few.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: I think it was more of a college age writing exercise,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: but yeah.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Probably the same logic applies.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: And one of those books, right, Steel Dragon Steele is
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: sort of the foundation for miss Bourne and the origin
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: story for like how the God was killed and all
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: the worlds came to be right. So he wrote that story.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it's cringe and terrible and probably unpublishable, but
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I know he's gone back and like, I think he's
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: rewritten it because it is the foundation of like miss
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Stormline Archives. So he does plan on publishing it, but
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's got enough spoilers that he's waiting until
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: he's pretty much done with the series, which is another
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: twenty plus years.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I love that for him. I love that he just
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: knows what he's doing with his life and it's just
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: continuing to make up worlds in his head and have
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: other people like get them distributed to masses of adoring fans.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Like what a charmed life he must be getting to live.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I heard him say, He's like, I will never ever
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: write everything I want to. There's just that's not possible. However,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I will finish. I do have a plan to finish
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: the series that I am writing, right, Like, there's this
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: like I do plan on basically he does. I don't
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: plan on doing a rothus Or Martin. He didn't say that,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: but he's going to do a Jordan. Yeah, he's gonna
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: do it. Well, even Jordan didn't finish his books though.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: No, I'm saying he's going to keep writing until they
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: nail shut his coffin. He's literally yeah, going to be right,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: He's going to leave something unfinished. It might not be,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: of course you will, but when he dies, he will
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: be mid project of.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Course, of course, probably mid five projects. Right. I don't know.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: There's some people that never retire because what they do
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: isn't orc for them.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Precisely, it's the love what you do, and you'll never
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: work a day in your life.
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: Thing.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Speaking of not loving what they're doing, the Aschamon have
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: been booted out of this battlefield. Torolda sent them away
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: because they're a valuable resource. This is where we get
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: the line about how they looked up. They traveled to
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: where the signal fires were lit, and all they found
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: was an abandoned camp.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Which what is what is going on there?
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Is that the people we.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Talked about it before, and my hypothesis that dark Friends
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: sent a false signal and killed everyone and hit the bodies,
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: or that the sister in question was a dark friend
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: that was you know, they just left and went to
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: do dark friendly things. But we don't actually ever get
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: an answer. As far as I know, dark friendery somehow,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: but the question is who and how, and it doesn't
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: really matter, so it never gets revealed, right.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Because I assume it's linked to the lord who goes
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: insane later.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: No, I don't see why it would be. I think
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: it's just dark friend plotting stuff just.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Because it's all I'm just all dump throwing all dark
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: friends into one big cook pot.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I don't think I has anything to do
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: with that. I think either the sister who was leading
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: the group was a dark friend or they were ambushed
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: by dark Friends. Either way, there's no sign because mystery
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: will keep them tied up longer.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: And then the last writers, I don't know what.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the name of the company that was up
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: there doing the watch or something, but it's just like
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: the whole all the fortifications are being overrun. I Teralda
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: never believed that that was a real signal. I don't
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: believe it was a real signal either.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Interesting he'd sent a scout through gateway to the ridge
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: where the Last Writers had been said to watch. But
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: last Writers is one word. Yeah, and I don't find
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: any reference to that anywhere else.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Huh. That is weird?
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: All right? Chapter twenty four, my own sister, Sigrel leads
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: the Last Writers. Who's the sister of Yoeli? Yeah? Hey,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: I found the source of all the character names derive
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: from reader's names. It's on the thirteenth Depository.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Of course it is.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: There is an article, and so I've been looking them
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: up at w because it does breaks down by chapter.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm gonna drop this link in discord. So, okay,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I don't have any no idea what happened to her,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: assuming since she was the sister of the guy who's
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: fighting for the city and died for the city, I'm
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: going to assume she also was not a dark friend
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: and was leading them and legitimately probably got ambushed and killed.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like one of her subordinates was a dark friend,
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: and you know, like something happened and the bodies are
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: stuffed under a bush somewhere or they were kidnapped and
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: taken off to get you know, turned into murderer Blaze
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Italda is getting ready to you know, here's another force
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: coming in and is getting ready to ambush them Plan
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: number six whatever that happens to be.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they're gonna do another one of their plans.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: And then why are they marching in Unison?
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Right? So why don't they have hoof beats? And it's like, oh,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: because they're all feet, not hoofs.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: Because this is Bashir and an army that can retake
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: the city, and Rand has finally come essentially too little,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: too late, you know, in a lot of deact city.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: But nonetheless here he is.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways, the reason Fashiir's troops
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: have such an easy time of it is because Elda
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: bloodied them so bad and hurt them so bad that
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh fuck, we're not dealing with a real force.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Right, They're like, we know we can win against these
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: the rats. Oh god, now there's mastiffs in the picture,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: like the we cannot.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Meanwhile, those rat bites are infected and like causing you
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: way more problems than you thought they would.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's it is really cool that the simple
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: presence of a fresh army is enough to shoe all
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: the shadow spawn out of the city.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: And I kind of like the interaction between Ialda and Bashir.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: There's this like both generals who respect the hell out
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: of each other. You know, two people who are very
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: good at their job. Who are you know, willing to
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: work together for a common goal in common?
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: They're both masters of their craft, the countries of the
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: same craft. They are from countries that are sometimes allies
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: and sometimes a little more stand offish, so they have
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: to like you to do all that two big dogs
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: in a small room kind of thing. But also, you know,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Ialda is running on literal magically enhanced borrowed fumes and
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Bashir looks at him and goes, you look like shit,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: like why are you not like because like Iteralda is
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: literally going up the stairs thinking like I just want
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: to sleep and then I could talk to Bashir, but no,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I gotta be a general, and Basher looks at him
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: and goes, dude, you should take a nap before you
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: talk to me, like.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Wow, And we see evidence of Eyl's brain not working
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: very well because he has that magically reduced tiredness. But
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: even that's catching up with him, right, Like he's beyond
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: the point where he should have slept.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: He doesn't the opening, Like, he's like, I'm going to
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: just drop unconscious at some point without warning, and that's
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: yeah exactly. Basher looks at him and says, you look
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: like you're about to drop completely unconscious without warning.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: Tarkumun is the dark friend noble.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a cousin of Bashir's. And El is not
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: really sure if that means Basher is gonna be mad
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: at him for everything. And he's like, I didn't really
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: like the guy anyway, and Yurley was a good man
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: and he died fighting, so I'm just gonna take your
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: word for it for the time being able to deal
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: with him later, which I appreciate. I like, because like,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: you don't want to let personal feelings influence your judgment
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: of people in the sort of respect too much. But
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: also all the evidence, including your gut feeling, lines up. Yeah,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: he'll keep for a minute. It's fine, and we of
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: course know he is a deep dark friend, so it's
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: extra fine.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: So they set up a plan to basically distract the
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: trolks while they flee the city. Right, they're like the
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: city's too too banged up, which it drawls like how
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: dare you leave the city? But I'm like you already
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: kind of trashed it man, like there's nothing left you
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: do this.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: But that's the thing, you know, is it's like he's
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: been clenched around this idea for so long it takes
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: a little bit of talking through it to be like,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: you're right, we have to there's nothing to defend, right,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Like the point was to slow the trollocks down. We've
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: done that. Time to fall back to the next fallback point.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: You know, that was the plan right before they got
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: stuck here helping Yearly. And now Early City is literally
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: a burned out ruin, so let's bounce. And then a
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: man says, oh, the shadow Spun have also brought a
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: fresh army. The humans brought a fresh army. The Shadow
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Spun brought a fresh army. This is gonna be a problem,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: and maybe we can't leave.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Oh no, mm hmm. And later Rand says, you know,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: he brought that army to hurt me, right, he knew
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: this would hurt me. To this, this was a tenacity
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: that you people survived. You defied him, and so he
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: brought these troulics to hurt me because you surviving gives me,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: you know, hope and boosts the dragon. Right.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: That man still fights, right, Like that's what this was.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: This was a whole band of brothers doing the refusing
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: to be beaten. That man still fights thing. That is
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: what powers Ran through his final vision to defeat the
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Dark One. At the actual battle, when they're doing their
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: you know discourse.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Duel, so Rand shows up apologizes for leaving him.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he says, please tell me that Rand dealt with
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: the Sean Channer. I mean, Ali was with the Sean Shannon.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Rand says, yeah, I got to apologize for that, and
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: a bunch of.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Other stuff, and a bunch of other stuff because.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: It's kind of been failing at the whole savior thing.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: We get a list of people who died who are
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: all Crossroads of Twilight characters. As far as I can tell,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: they were introduced in the either the prolog or the
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: epilogue in which Doctoraldo was in the cross for Crossroads
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: of Twilight.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Right, good callback of just like all those characters that
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: you thought maybe you can invest in and that would
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: be part of his retinue, Like they've all fallen by
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: the wayside. This is the last man standing from that
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: original crop of characters that we wanted to care about.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: So Rand gateways out to basically a place where you
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: can see right.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Rand says, Actually, I'm going to save this burnt
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: out husk of his city because I'm tired of letting
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: him hurt my people, which I'm like, okay, victim blaming
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: yourself a bit much here, but yeah, Rand says, I'm
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: going to go one man army an entire tide of
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Tarlock's basically doing an eye of the world ism and
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: I have the world conclusion but on purpose at the hire,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: yeah yeah, and knowing what he's doing, and.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: He says he doesn't have an ongreole or does he
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: have the Fat Man? Does he have?
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I believe he's got the Fat Man again. I believe
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: that's returned to his possession at this point.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, I wasn't sure if you have anything in this
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: possession or not.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not totally sure, but I thought that he had
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: found the fat little.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Man because he's not using colind or he's destroyed the
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Chidren call.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's just the little the little Bododa man,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: if anything, And.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: We get some gate the gateway weirdness too, right, he's
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: doing a short hop so he doesn't have to know
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: the area, I guess is how.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he just hops outside basically like he's like, oh yeah,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I want to go down there. I can see it
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: from out of the window. I want to go over there.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, there's no issue with the skimming whatever.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: That really does. He really starts abusing gateways in that
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: way where he's just like, oh, yeah, I can just
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: you know, why go for a walk when I can
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: just pop in, you know. And remember the beginning when
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: they're like, well, we don't want a gateway inside of
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: a city in case we kill somebody, so we have
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: to walk for five days to make sure we're out
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the populated areas. And now he's like, yeah, you know,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go over there.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Well, in fairness, there's no one over there, but but yeah,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: he just like pops it open in the middle of
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: the room, jumps through. He does leave it open long
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: enough for his two maidens to come with him. He's
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: not fighting that. He's like, yeah, obviously you're not gonna
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: do this fight for me. You are two maidens with spears.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go to a big magic battle. But
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: we have an agreement, so yes, you can come guard
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: my back. You'll have nothing to do, but you can
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: guard my back.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: It'll be cool if the occasional trolloc made it through
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: that they got the spear. I think that would be
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: fun if you like let one through for him every
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: once in a while, just so they had something to do.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Every five minutes. He's like, are you look bored?
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Killdraulic?
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Totally? Totally. He should have done that. That would have
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: really carried. That would have earned him the most g
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: extra credit for the maidens.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so he does his storm of power.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: And they started to.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Die a light and streams of power. Now, and this
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: is how much of this is Ninive, Like, is he
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: the storm that Ninive has always been seeing coming or
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: is it the dark one? That's always something I wonder about.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: I still think it's the dark one.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's the dark one because this is a
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: very positive storm for humanity and Nineve is experiencing existential
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: for humanity. But yeah, he goes out there and just
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: lights up the sky, the earth and everything in between.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: He's glowing to Itcheralda's eyes, He's making the air just
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: vibrate with sheer energy. I think even people who can't
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: channel are like, there is something extra happening right now,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: just in my bones.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: And this is the glow of the light that Ran channels,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: right Because often he's trying, he's channeling Sideine or Siddar
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: or Sidar when he's you know, in a circle or
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: even La the true power. But every once in a
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: while you get to mention of like he channeled the
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: light and it seems to be something that's both part
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: of Sideine and also separate from it, maybe above it.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: It's the power of the Creator that he seems to
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: be able to tap into directly.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think he's just using so
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: much power that he literally is incandescent.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: And I would argue because it is the power that
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: drives the universe, he is in some ways tapping into
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: the Creator in that way, and he's using so much
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: that he's manifesting Like.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's like he's going above a certain
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: threshold and like you get like extra god powers or
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: something when you can channel above that threshold. Like it's
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: just it's on another level. He's in a whole other
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: tax bracket of God power.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Just because like there is that power he uses to
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: light the pipe, right, and there is somehow this access
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: he has, whether you can argue that's the light or not.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: And especially in the last battle, there's a lot of
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: channeling of what feels like pure sighting, pure sidar, pure
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: one power. Yeah, and that seems different than just the
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: one power.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: To which I say, sir, this is a hard magic system.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Please stop fuzzing it. Putting fuzziness on the hard magic system.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: The Robert Jordan very carefully crafted and I don't appreciate it.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: But there's something different here, right because Takomac whatever the
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: fuck his name is, Tokman, Yeah, dorkua Man, don torque Man,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: no level of channeling the one power would do to
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: dark trends, what seeing rand would do to them.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he goes all holy Lighthouse or whatever.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: So the light that they're seeing, and he's like the light,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: the light, it's not the one power, it's something else.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: That's where I'm coming at with that.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it Yeah, it feels like warmth to someone
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: like men, and it feels like a blinding light to
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: someone like Wyraman or Torquemen or their respective female partners. Yeah,
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: it's it's just a rand never describes it as being
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: like a third or secret fourth power or whatever. He's like,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I'm just channeling like you do.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I really do feel like he's tapping into
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: a different level of that power. He's tapping into the
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: pure power of the Creator.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and also he's able to skip past uh,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: there's no taint anymore. Right, So it's like he's he's
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: really reaching extremely new heights of what the power can be.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: He's unconstrained, he's unfettered in.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: The same way that like he created a shield out
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: of golden light to wrap around the team in his brain. Right,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: that that golden wrapper that Ninive sees, right, it's not
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: made out of sidine. She can see it.
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we keep getting stuff that people who are of
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: the wrong gender or the wrong power alignment can see.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean it's a good argument, but I
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: still think Sanderson is just putting fuzziness on a hard
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: magic system, and I rather he didn't. But you're right,
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're right objectively about what's there canonically to
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: connect the dots.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: With the demand seems to be glowing. A scream came from
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: nearby within the building one of the nearby rooms. We
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: know that's uh talk'man getting eye fried.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's getting like blinded in his soul and then
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: decides to stab his eyeballs out with a quill rather
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: than you know, continue to see the light, even though
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: he still sees the light because it's not the kind
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: of light you see basically with your eyeballs. His wife
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: makes them more smart decision, which is to just huck
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: herself out the window and die. Can't perceive things if
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: you have no nervous system activity, ha ha.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Except then you're at the mercy of the dark one.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well that was inevitable once you sold your soul.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: I would rather try and survive the last battle so
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: that he was locked away.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think dark friends think like that.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Except what does it do Landfeard does?
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well Landfear's special.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: And she didn't survive the last battle either.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: No, obviously, I don't think nobody in their right mind
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: would claim that.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Obviously, no one, no one, no one would say otherwise,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: not like Matt from the Dusty Wheel in the previous chapter.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: It's a rumor. If he says it, it's a rumor.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Precise can't be fact, it's half the fun being wrong.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And if the author says it, he should, you know,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: say it better in the books.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't accept ten year retcons. Sorry, it's a
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: statute of limitations.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because that wasn't even like a little secret thing.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: That was just pure retconning.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like now parents snapped her neck, get over it.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Anyway, so it takes an hour. Rand goes out there
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: and just absolutely goes at it with these one hundred
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: thousand trollocks or whatever and just do my as well
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: as them for an hour, all by his lonesome. He's
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: got ice, he's got fire, he's got lightning and water,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: and he's got everything every trick in the book. And
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: he does it for an hour straight. And then eventually
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: they all stop and run away, and he kills a
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: bunch more and it's great, and he ultimately says, yeah,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: that was kind of dumb on me. I'm a little tired. No,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I can't photo off enemies if they show up. I
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: shouldn't have done that, but it looked cool, But he
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: really shouldn't have done that. It's a very impractical way
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to blow his load.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: When I compare this to like the fight at the
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: manor with the Ashaman. It to me really highlights the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: difference between Jordan's writing style and Sanderson's writing style, because
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Sanderson is much is going to write a sword fight
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: where I can see it in much more detail. I
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: feel like Jordan did a better job of describing the
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: fire works and the way that the trollocks were torn
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: apart was much more visc role in those scenes. This
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: should be a much more impressive scene, and somehow it
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: fades into the background of the conversation with Ideralda. He's like, oh, yeah,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: hold on, hold my beer while I go Nuka trolic army. Right, Well,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I do have a military endiagement, and it's just I
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: don't it doesn't have the emotional impact that I feel
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: like some of the last battles have had on me.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And like to touch the point that like the first
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: time I read this, I kind of skimmed over it
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: and forgot that he torched a fucking army, which should
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: be like I have the world level impressive.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Well, but he tells you it was a master work,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: that terrible, destructive, wonderful master work. You don't need to
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: actually see the master. Could she eat him to tell
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: you that it's a master work, and it's left as
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: an exercise to the reader, right, because it's not you know,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: standing brutally on a on a rooflintel or doing a
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: cool sword fight in mid air with a burning stick
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: in one hand.
• 25:00
  Speaker 6: It's massive, and it feels more like a checklist of
• 25:03
  Speaker 6: like he used clouds, he used water spouts, he used
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: death gates, he used you know, like there's this checklist
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: of things he used, but no real visceral description of them.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, fades into the background is a really good way
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: of describing how this fight goes. It feels so massive
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: and also like a really inconsequential side quest compared to
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: the real conversation that is, it's so big. This is
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: bigger than what he did at the end of I
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: of the World. And it's literally a hold my beer
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: mid conversation at this point, Like that's too op. This
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: brand is too op if that's what's happening.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Like Torqueman's tearing his eyes out is more interesting into
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: me than Rand burning down tens of thousands of trolocs.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that does feel like a bit of a of
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: a misfire on the writing front.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Talk about nerving bad guys remember when one trollic was
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: a big deal a narg no, right, and now he's like,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, couple couple ten thousand nargs whatever. Yeah.
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's not that I think it's a bad battle,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: not that I'm like offended with the way it was
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: written or that I think it needed to be written differently,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: but I think adding more character emotional reaction around that
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: would have paid it off better, because no one's really
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: reacting to Rand blowing away an army.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Also, I am unclear on the fate of Maradon after this,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: and I feel like I shouldn't be good point do
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: they all leave merit? Who do they leave behind? And
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: do they leave anyone behind? Do they still evacuate every
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: single person from this burned out husk of a city,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Because if that's what they do, there was no point.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: It feels like Rand, well, the point was that if
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: they got past the city, they would decimate the rest
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: of the countryside.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, I mean you're right. Rand did literally
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: murder like fifty thousand trullocks by himself that human men
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: did not have to risk their lives to kill. Okay,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: that is true, that is fair.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: And he also was like, they won't have this city,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: so they didn't get it. Whether it can be rebuilt,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: whether anybody has it or the residents, I mean, I
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: don't know.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I feel like they could rebuild, yeah, but not during
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: the last battle. Like they're still all leaving, right, but
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Shear's like, oh, we got to leave right now, and
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Rand's like, no, I'm gonna make it so we can
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: leave in an hour, you know. Like I just I
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: feel like I shouldn't be confused and ambivalent and wondering
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: what happened to the city after such an epic defense.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: I feel like it should be very clear to me
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: from the like you said, the emotional impact on the viewers,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: like on the people in the scene, that emotional impact
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: should kind of tell me where the city's fate is
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: gonna lie instead of and then they just pov switched
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: to men and that's the end of it, you know.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and RAN's back in the Stone of Tyr right,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: he gave ways back and then no real description of
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: what's and I assume and Basher and after all the
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: and the rest of the armies are off to go
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: fight in the last battle.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: No, we hear them all coming in like on a
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: lower level of the palace they're going to get taken
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: care of. And yeah, it's like they still left the city.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: It's still gonna ultimately get taken by the next wave
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: of army when it comes through.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe, I mean if it comes to I mean,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: that's enough of a damage that they probably don't have
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: any more troops anywhere near there. They probably had to
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: gather everybody because again, you can't get away those trolks, true,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: which is another thing. Where do you come up with
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: this giant force of truls and how do you get
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: them there?
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And if they were all there, then why is
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: there a last battle to fight? If Frand killed them.
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: All, well, not all of them, but yeah, certainly on.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: The magic mechanics of the bad guy minions are often
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: very confusing.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: And I should say a Maradon is the capital of Saldaea?
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Just the capital? Oh, I kind of spaced that.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I did too, And it was a big city.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: I forgot it was the capital.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: So I get the feeling it will be rebuilt being
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: the capital. Yeah right, yeah, but I didn't. Yeah, I
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: didn't get that. I thought it was more of an
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: out of the way little city. I didn't realize how
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: big Maradon was.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean presumably, yeah, people will come back
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: after the last battle. But again, it feels weird the
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: way that we go back and forth in this chapter
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: about you know, destroyed the city, save the city, abandon
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: the city, save the city, abandon the city.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and no mentions like Queen Tanobia was in that, well,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: that's that was her palace, right that they burned down.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, because she's down and farmatting with the other
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Borderlander rulers doing the can we slap rand silly routine.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways, that's paren and Zorene's palace.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so they why.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Didn't they Serene? Yeah, fight you.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so they might end up rebuilding that at some
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: point in mid career, be like, yeah, let's move to
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: all day you for a decade and put the capital
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: back together.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: This is this is literally like, yeah, this is probably
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: where Fayel grew up. And because they say by year
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: this is b Shear's home.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Wow, Fayeel's childhood home is currently a burned out ruin.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Right that got burned down by the you know.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, I had never even put that together. Again, we
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: should have more of the emotional impact on the characters
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: this scene. We should have the shear being like, well,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm not going to be taking my grandchildren
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: to that like park at the center of the city
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: because I saw it burned out on the way in
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: or something. Ah. Wow, I cannot believe that I never
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: put that together. Okay, there's a little more emotional juice
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: to ring out of this than I thought. That's good,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: But it should have been a little bit more direct
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: on the page.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but sheer being like, my home city's
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: burned down. Oh well, thanks for doing your best, Like
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: it just doesn't ring quite true to me.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there should have been more like goddamn, I'm glad
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: you saved one thing, but did you have to take
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: down this? It should have been a little bit more,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: you know, wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: of the people coming to their home city.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I can see bashir like being walking through an untouched
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: garden in the middle of a blown out wreck and
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: being like, this is where I proposed to my wife.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you for saving it, like right, or like the
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: rest of my life has been burned to the rest
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: of my history is burned down. But at least I
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: have this, you know, or.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: Just like going through the whole meeting with just tears
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: streaming down his face and like holding it together, but
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: like just visibly completely destroyed.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we should not have been confused about this
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: and needing a podcast to figure it out.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: The face and some of it is is he's like,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: it's my nephew, is Torquaman?
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: Like he's really he's like he does say he grew
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: up here, like there's a few things like that. But
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: when I think he grew up there, I'm like, oh,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: it's the small town he grew up in, not the
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: big city that he you know, capital sit and really
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: he grew up in the capitol, right, Like I don't know. Yeah,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: you're right, You're right. There needed to be a little
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: more emotional connection to this location.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but Sanderson wanted to write Randolph or absolutely flattening
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: an army by his lonesome with two maidens guarding his back.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Sanderson wanted to write that, and everything else was just
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: in service of supporting that scene. I guess, Oh, well, povy.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Switch, pov switched to men.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: All right, so we're gonna head over to min and
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: she is studying stuff about Calendor. She's doing the academic
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: deep dive situation and that she's feeling that Rand is angry,
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: but she's a little bit like whatever. I got to
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: focus on my work. And then Rand stumbles in, you know,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: post Maradon, because that anger was his righteous fury, you know,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: wreaking vengeance on the trollicks. That was the anger she felt.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: And now he is coming in to sort of, you know,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: process and be dirty and smoky and just kind of
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: talk about it for a minute.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: And I think they make a point of being like,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: he's still human. He still has emotions, he still gets angry.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: It's just how he deals with it that's different. Like it.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: It's not that Rand has changed in some master where
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: he never has emotions.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: No, I really really like the part where he says,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: I have a right to my anger. Don't you see
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: before I tried to hold it all hidden within? That
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: was wrong. I must feel. I must hurt for the pains,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: the deaths, the losses. I have to cling to these
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: things so I know why I'm fighting and I it's yes,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: it's very Sanderson, it's very cliche, and it's what we've
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: been screaming at ran for the entire preceding you know,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: ten books, right, Like, this is the revelation that he needed,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: which is that, Yeah, emotions are not the problem. And
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: this is what so many of us need to learn,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: is that emotions are not the problem. Having emotions is
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: not a problem. It's it's processing through them and what
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: you do with them. And in his case, yeah, sometimes
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: you gotta you know, wield the power of a god
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: to destroy like fifty thousand evil monsters.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Because you're ap peeved, peeved, slightly annoyed, feeling a little
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: bit hurt, you know.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Fifi's guy a little stepped on.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Oh there's a prophecy line here I wanted to talk about.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: She read line again. Light is held before the maw
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: of the infinite void, and all that he is can
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: be seized.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: I don't remember this line.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I don't remember this line either, but it's foreshadowing, like
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Rand grabbing all three powers standing before the infinite void
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: that the thatches out of Shataharan, Right, And when he does,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: he seizes the dark one, and in that moment he
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: makes the choice to whether whether to kill him or
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: imprison him.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and he is also very vulnerable. They are
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: locked into a death spiral like Eagles or something. It's
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: a really cool line. I just don't remember it.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: It's kind of in passing.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: How dare I not remember a line? I mean I
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: should remember every single line from these books, particularly the
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: last thing.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: You do not know the last three books as well
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: as the rest of the series. You have admitted that, Yeah,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: but it's just I think it's it's it's for shouting,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: right that moment when he seeses the Dark One, right again,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: here's that light, right, it's not the one power, it's
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: light that he's holding. This light seems to be something different.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: All three powers together in one terrungry all person.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and then the mall of the infinite void
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: just the dark one.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, pretty pretty clear. So yeah, man asks the
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Maidens you know what happened to Rand, and the Maidens
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: are super super pro rad at this point, like, yeah,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: he earned a lot of g He worked himself a
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: little bit too hard to show off because he's a
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: young man who needs to show off. But he basically
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: just did that badass Warriors shit that we've been wanting
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: him to do this whole time.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: Here's a bit I don't really understand. She's like, why
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: is it a bad thing that you fought here? And
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: he goes it came too close to a confrontation between
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: us that must happen at shale Ghoul and at the
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: right time. I cannot afford to let him provoke me
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: like that. I don't really understand, like why would fighting
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: there cause a confrontation between him and the Dark One?
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Like wul the Dark One pop out? Like, I don't
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: see how that him unleashing power like that can cause
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: the confrontation early.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: The best I can think is that he almost let
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: himself get goaded into a life draining amount of power
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: usage in an effort to defeat the Dark One. And
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: you can't do that unless you're close enough to the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: bore and doing all the magic other stuff to like
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: have that work. But I feel like, I don't think
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: that the Dark One could pop through. I think it
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: was just that rand almost let himself get carried away
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: to destroy the whole army. That's the best I got.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: I don't really totally I'm not totally satisfied with that.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: Nantok's asking if it could be referring to the nabless, like, oh,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: maybe if he like fought hard enough, then like whoever
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: enabless is is going to show up and like curse
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: smack him. Maybe because he does say like if an
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: enemy showed up now, I wouldn't be able to defend myself.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: So like maybe it's like the when he did the cleansing, right,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: it's a big beacon of power. That's his enemies. No,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: he's weak and available.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he wasn't drawing that much power. His
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: skill in destroying the Trullucks had more to do with
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: the fact that he was weaving that many weaves, not
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: so much pow much. I mean, obviously there was a
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: lot of power involved, but it really was just like,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: oh my god, he's weaving hundreds of weaves at once,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: which is crazy, which is a skill issue.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I really think it's it's just that Rand
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: almost let himself get drawn into using so much power
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: that he'd be you know, too vulnerable or knocked out
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: for a week or something. But I don't know, I
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: feel like he should have expounded on that threat slightly more.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: And then he basically says he I can't fight anywhere everywhere,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Like the battle's going to be all over the place.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: I can't be in all this point, which is kind
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: of funds in the last battles of being in one
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: place anyway, Well, it.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Starts out on many places and then shrinks towards the
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: middle over time. But yeah, he does. Basically, it's not
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: even foreshotwing. He just basically tells us the last battles
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: are going to be on you guys. I'm going to
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: go do a big existential thing that you guys have
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: to like do the fight of Waves of Trolex thing
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: for months on end. That's not me, that's all you guys. Oh,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: and there's a little bit more about the prophecy. Have
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: you ever wondered why Calendor is so often called a
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: fearful Blade or the blade of Ruin, And there's an
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: end The blade will bind him in Twain by Twain, Oh,
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: bind him by Twain, right, by the.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Two people right, the nine even Moraine will be yeah,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: yeah bind and him in this case is a shawmele Yeah,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: because he picks up the blade and they bind him
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: and then fearful Blade or Blade of Ruin. I assume
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: it's because it is a true power song. Real.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it has a capacity that is very dark one
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: adjacent by definition so.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: That's sort of where I think that fearful or blade
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: of Ruin comes from.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: And also like that's part of the flaw that makes
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: it so that you can't control it unless you're in
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: a triad with two women to do the thing. There's
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: a lot wrong with it that.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: There seems to be two different flaws, right, It's flawed
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: in the hole like you have to be controlled by
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: two women or it drives you insane, but also in
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: that it can channel the true power. We never get
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: confirmation that those are linked.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: True, but I'm just saying, like it's a pretty fearful
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: blade when it brings down lightning on your side of
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: the army really bad, Like, that's a pretty fearful blade.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Like that's a bad weapon to bring in if it's
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: gonna turn into friendly fire, you know.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: And again because Sanderson blade of Ruin, his evil god
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: in the Missborn series was Ruin. Yeah, so so blade
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: of Ruin. I don't know, I don't know if that's
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: a reference or not, but it could be.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: It sounds cool, so why not it sounds cool?
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 39:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: The last thing we have for this chapter is Rand saying, Okay,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: at Eeralda, I know you want a nap. I know
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: you want a nap. However, there is one more thing
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: you need to see before you have yourself a three
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: day lie down. So they go off down the hallway,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: walking and talking get to kad Swain.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: The only other thing I want to say about calendor
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: is she says, Ran, I think it might make you weak,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: open to attack if you use it. And later he's like, oh, yeah,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: that's about how I die. But later it's like, oh,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: that's how you give it to Morden and he if
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: he uses it. So that's that's where that key comes from,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: of giving it letting him use it, because then he
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: is open to attack when he does, and.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: In fairness, Randa is open and vulnerable to attack for
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: a quick sec before he swaps it over to Mordon. Right,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: there's this moment of trust is the wrong word, but
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: mutual defense lowering in order to then do that switch
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: with Mordon and have Morton end up being you know,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: chained against his will. It's a cool.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Move, and that chain goes right back to the dark
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: One because the Dark One has granted an open passage
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: of true power to Mordon, and so that's how he's
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: able to control the true power.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there were also a bunch of names in this
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: chapter that we didn't talk about if they were like
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: fan names or not. Which names like some of the maidens,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I think if ANASI. Oh, there's also a soldier named
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: Vulgar Vocaler. There were some names that seemed new to me.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't know if they were fan names or not.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Let me pull them up.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Vogeler, I don't We might have seen that one before,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: but I feel like the two maidens had to have
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: been fan inserts.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: Vogeler is named for Eric Vogeler, a fan of the
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, cool, excellent.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Fina is named for Eva Snyder, a fan of the
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time. Okaya is named for Fina Ebo, a
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: fan of the Wheel of Time. All right, sweet and
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Ethanine wah so I f e y I n w
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: A so spelled a little differently interesting name e b
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: o h last name cool name cool?
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I'm glad I brought that up. Those are
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: the only names that I saw in that regard. And
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: then yeah, we just have this last cool interaction that's
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: all heartwarming and nice, where Rand is polite to kat
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Swain and rode A, Tiralda gets to reunite with his
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: best bro, the King.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: We find out that Matt and Stepanios was not actually
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: kidnapped by Grendal. He was actually being kidnapped by Lida
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: and was stuck on the road this whole time. It's
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: like when your package is like shipped but just sits
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: in the warehouse for two months and you're like, what's
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: going on? Why is it in Ohio? I don't know,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: but it's not bribing.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Right right, And he has this line here, Grandal never
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: had him. I didn't kill him. One innocent I assumed
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: that i'd killed still lives. That's something that's kind of
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: like an inverse to that moral lesson that Morgaze gave
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: to Galad earlier. If here's one innocent man I know
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I executed, that's one black mark that I can point to.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: And Randon's basically in the inverse, Well, there's one innocent
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: person I thought I killed that I didn't. That is
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: one point of hope. That's one point of positivity.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: And I feel like Moraine's another one.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: Right, like yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: So I think they should have more effect on them
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: than it does in that way. Well, I think Moraine's
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: survival should have more effect on him than it does.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, but this just felt like such an
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: inverse of the more gaze thing. It's just it's because
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: he knows of something that Sanderson really wants to emphasize
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: with Rand in these books, is that like an individual
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: life matters, an individual salvation matters, an individual being protected matters.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Like just because you can't save everyone doesn't mean you
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: shouldn't save someone. Like that's such a thing that Rand's
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: ultimate revelation revolves around. And you know, it's kind of
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: cool to see a couple different. You know, sometimes you
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: fuck up and sometimes you gloriously don't fuck up, and
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: both things happen.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And that's end of chapter thirty two, which brings us
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: to chapter thirty three. A good soup, And we've got
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: the line of and or because it's a Lane chapter.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is still soup season. So I'm I'm really
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: a big fan of a good soup right now.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: I made a potato leak soup, the other potato creamy
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: potato soup yesterday two days ago. It was really good,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: nice out, well, very nice. Why is the soup from camelin.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Good because Camelin has the sunlight over it, right, the
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: unnatural sunlight, because a lane is a nexus of Rand love,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: and so the food in Camelin is pretty good. So
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: apparently there's a bit of staying power as those resources
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: go out to other locations.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I would argue, yes, and what other the places have
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: we seen food be fine and not spoiled? Parens Army?
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah?
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: And who's who else is stationed in Cammelin? What other
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: tavern Matt Matt's in Camblin and the food like they
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: I almost think that tavern might be the vectors by
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: which Rand keeps the food from spoiling. Because Paren's Army
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: has food that doesn't spoil, Matt in Camlin might be
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: keeping the food from there from going bad.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: I had never thought of that. I was just like, no,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: it's the power of love and also the gestating queen.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: But you're right, Matt is also in the same geographic proximity,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: and food and weather are not necessarily related. They definitely
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: go together when Rand is in the picture, But that
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean that that's true amongst his allies that get
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: splinters of his effects. I also feel like, honestly, his
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: strong connection to Agwaine and Ninive should be giving Tarvalin
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: just a general glow up in that regard.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Exactly exactly right, Like, why isn't Tarvalan line any of
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: his other Why isn't Avienda creating that effect? Why isn't
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: men creating that effect? Right? Like, Yeah, it's the tavern
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: that secure the pattern against the dark ones corruption.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Matt never really mentions food. No, he does
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: mention being surprised at hearing about food spoiling because it
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: just hasn't been an issue for his army. And when
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: he reconnects with the.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, underway foods.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Really, you guys must not know how to store food
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: or whatever. Oh my god, get your right end talk.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Get that power of friendship at it here. It's Teveran.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: I'm Teveran.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Just the thought. I mean, I think, if you want
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: a head cannon that he like gave Camelin a special
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: blessing because his love lives there and it's the capital
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: of the Free world and all that kind of stuff, right,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Like there's a certain amount of Camelot Camelin. It's a
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: special place.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I kind of like the idea that.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: It's the boys and it's where he came down, you know,
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: and Dragon Mount's right there. Well, no, Dragon Mount's right
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: near Tarvollin, So if anything right, he came down he
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: had his epiphany on Dragon Moounts the apples thing right
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: near tar Vroland. So you would think Tarvallin would be
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: in the light and be fine.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Right, like y'all are in the same zip code.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Like what But no, it's the food from Camelin because
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: it's it's Teveran.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, yeah, no, I had never thought of that,
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: but I actually do like that explanation that it's it's
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: not the power of friendship or the power of love,
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: it's just literally tavern because the food spoiling is an
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: odds balancing thing. The Taveran nature just like is a
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: natural counterbalance without big interpersonal epiphanies or anything that less
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: satisfying but more solid, if that makes sense, because yeah
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: it is weird otherwise. But okay, all right, so these boys,
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: is she to be on a constant rotation tour.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Just keeping the food? Well, it's just that everybody has
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: to join the armies is basically what it boils down to.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: It's a recruitment tool. The pattern is recruiting for matt
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Random Perin by forcing you into their army because it's
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: the only place the food isn't spoiling.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: That's upsetting logic. But I don't think you're wrong. I
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: just that annoys me.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Well, it's it's that the Dark One can't do anything
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: without helping the good guys. Right, He's destroying the world
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: and corrupting the food sources, but by doing that, he's
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: forcing people to join the good guy's army. Right, there's
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: this like, in a lot of ways, the reason Ran
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Mattin Perrin have been propelled to the front line, have
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: gained the power they've gained is because the Dark One
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: has tried to take them out, has tried to like
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: by making them a target. They've had to become stronger.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: There's no lessons here that apply to the real world kids,
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: none at all.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, let's be honest, who joins an army
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: without being economically depressed, starving, and or without options.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: A handful of adrenaline seekers. There are definitely people who
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: are just adrenaline junkies who think that it sounds like
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: a really good way to get at their fix. But yeah,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: as a bulk recruitment tool. Hunger is doing all the
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: heavy lifting.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: So basically, the pattern is as bad as the US government.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm getting out of this and every other government.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: Let's be I.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Feel like it's worse because the pattern's dealing with consequences
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: of actions. The US government's making a choice. Do you
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: want to talk about how dangerous ice is? At some point?
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: All that's the fucking Christ. Not right now, not in
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: this moment. We are trying to get through the chapters.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: We will we will save that for its appropriate place
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: at the end, where I will just scream into a
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: pillow for twenty minutes, just.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: Twenty minutes of this sound on the podcast.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: Who like literally where we're not baring our heads in
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: the sand, guys, we're just taking a breather, editing a radio.
• 49:32
  Speaker 7: Here to say that we didn't actually get to this
• 49:35
  Speaker 7: this week, but next week does very much have that content.
• 49:40
  Speaker 7: Something about the White Cloak trial gets us thinking about
• 49:43
  Speaker 7: all of this Ice et cetera stuff, and we just
• 49:46
  Speaker 7: run with it for a bit.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: Ah Okay, So we're getting a report from NINEVE about
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: all this stuff that's been happening with rand. Essentially, we're
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: getting a GWayne and Swan sort of up to Supergirl
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: information speed, Right, we're not going to be doing that.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: Oh well, he couldn't have done that. Oh well, this
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: is a room. We're like, no, we're getting it from
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: the horse's mouth, so that way we can all be
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: on the same page.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Remember ever since she got taken away at Winter's Heart, right,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: actually maybe the book before right, end of Crossroads, Like
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: she's been with Rand for a big chunk of time,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: and yeah, I love the pushback, right she calls a
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: gway out. Yeah, yeah, where Gwen's like the Oshaman or
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: his responsibility and you mean, like the Isidi are yours
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: the ones who beat and tortured and imprisoned him? And
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: she's like, well, hm, you take his side too much?
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, I didn't own slaves, so I'm not responsible
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: for giving back all of the ill gotten gains. Like
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: that's literally what she says. I inherited a little bit
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: of guilt, I guess, But like, really, you're just biased.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Facts are biased, Science is biased, and and freaking Swan
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: is over there, like yeah, science is so biased, is
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: so in Rand's pocket. I'm just like, oh my god,
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: get out of the tower and touch grass.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: God right, there's a reason Ninive and Moraine the only
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: two I said, I he trust to me in the
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: He's the only one's not corrupted by Like even Agwaine
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: is completely corrupted by Tower politics.
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: No, she is Ivory Tower through and through. She's a tool,
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: She's an asset, but she's also a tool and a liability.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: And so they've got this interesting exchange here where they're
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: talking about how Rant has changed, and Niniva and Agwayne,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: you know, confer on the yell say he's embraced death,
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: and Quaene has this weird rejoinder where she's like, he
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: didn't seem like he didn't seem like he would need
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: to destroy natural Sparra. Those inside would just follow him,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: And I'm like they were brain wiped by compulsion. I
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: don't know if Rand's tevereing compellingness on the poor, destitute
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: wretches of an abandoned city are the same as Grandall's
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: mind puppets.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: There is a little bit of he had to be
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: hard because the circumstances forced him to be, and now
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: like he's being nice and kind and everything's kind of
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: working out for him.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: But that wouldn't have worked with Natrons vero, it just
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have no.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: And so there are circumstances, right, Like, I do feel
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: like there's a little bit of writing the story so
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: he can be this way. But then how much of
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: that is severeness? How much of that is like because
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: he's chosen right with the sacks of grain, right, how
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: much is it because he's chosen to be good? Those
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: sacks of grain are good? How much is it because
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: he's chosen to be nice? He's in circumstances where niceness helps. Yeah,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that in the most eloquent way,
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: but you understand what I'm trying to say.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And it's it's just weird that Agwaine is like, well,
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: this is clearly evidence, Like I don't, I don't know.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: It's a weird example Natron's barrow is. I'm not saying
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: that it was like he had a different choice or
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: didn't have a different choice. It's just weird that she's like, well,
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: the people there would have just followed him. He didn't
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: have to kill them, like they didn't have minds to
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: follow with. Yeah, it was something there for to work gone.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: They'd all been hollowed out by grandall anyway, So we
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: move on to plans for drawing Masana out. We got
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: a long conversation about the logistics of how we're going
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: to induce Massana to be trapped in tell Aroundriod and
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: do all of that awesome battle in the tower stuff
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: that they don't plan to have in the tower, or
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: they plan to have in the tower, but anyway, parent
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: interferes with it. All of that. This is a lot
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: of conversation setting up the logistics for that.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: So and they're teaching isaid I dreamed tar on Greol
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: and we had a line where those were created by Elaine, right,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: because the original ones were all stolen.
• 53:34
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: She sends Nicola and another accepted off to Camlin to
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: pick up what Elaine has to deliver, and it's a
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: whole big you know. She's like, that's when she's letting
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: out the rumor that there's going to be dreamter on
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Greil for Isidie to learn on. And yeah, she sends
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Blabermouth accepted to do the pick up from Elaine. We
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: never see Elaine do the manufacturing, but we do see
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: that rumor creation seed getting going.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: And so they're going to do She's seeing the wind
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: Finders in one place, and.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: The Wise Ones in another place, and the Isidaie in
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: a third, And she's like, if all of those groups
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: are all meeting me until I run Riod that night,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: there is no way that Masana is not going to
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: be slavering to know what's happening, which is absolutely drooling
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: to be until I run Riod spying on them at
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: that time, at that place.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: And which, yeah, I can't remember exactly how the plan is,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: but it all gets messed up because of Paren brings
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: in the dream spike.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's we could try to reconstruct what they thought
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: was going to happen, but since no plan survives contact
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: with the enemy, it's sort of moot. Paren comes crashing
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: in and then the rules are completely changed, and I
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: believe the wind Finders basically bounce out of the battle
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: pretty quickly because they're not super experienced, but the Iyeal
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: stay and the Isi diet, it's more of a mixed
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: bag depending on which ones are supposed to wake up
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: and which ones are supposed to stay, but they just
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: stay and participate in the fight.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Well, of course, as the.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Wind Finders are like, we are not qualified for this,
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: we are leaving goodbye, as I recall, that's what happens.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: We'll get there. When to get there, I'm so excited
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: makes us.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: The wind finders have no idea how to use the
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: world of dreams.
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Right exactly, And it's the first rule of disaster management.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Don't make it worse. So leaving is not cowardly, it
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: is pragmatic. And Gwan goes on her whole rant about
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: how she's, you know, not just the morline, but the
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: most valuable tool, and fighting Masana here is important enough
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: to risk even her to do.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: She's a tool, all right, She is a tool.
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: She is a tool. I love her and I love
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: her ambition, and I hate that she's a tool. I
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: both things can coexist to me at the same time.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: I did notice a line here that I hadn't picked
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: up before. She says she's dreamed this, right, that might
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: be why she's so set on setting up this trap.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: The way she's setting it up is she has dreamed
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: how she's going to beat Masana. She's had this prothetic
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: dream and that's why she probably doesn't believe that there's
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: the blood knives, right, there's this She's very tunnel visioned
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: on Thessana, and I never really could figure out why,
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: but it makes sense is she's had a dream that
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: she's going to fight her intel her on riadd. Oh, well,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: since I know there's an enemy, there's no reason to
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: suspect there's other enemies hiding out in the White Tower.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a very understandable blind spot. When you literally
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: have the answer that explains everything, why would you look
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: for further answers. I mean this is the experience of yeah,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: I'm autistic. Oh I also have adhd oh, I also
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: have oh oh, Like I've been going through this process
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: a lot lately with my medical stuff, which I don't
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: mean to air on the podcast, but yeah, it's amazing
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: how often one diagnosis is simply the opening salvo to
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: a series of increasingly refined revelations. Yeah, so Igwaine is
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: not having that perspective. She is going with the first
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: layer and that's it.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Just because you're stupid doesn't mean you can't also be
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: an asshole. We contain multitudes, We contain multitudes. Thanks. We
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: know it's after her testing because she doesn't have a
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: braid anymore.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Ninive is braidless and overly fascinated with the
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: addition of the ring to her hand, right, Swan thinks
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: kind of smugly like, oh yeah. Even though she's been
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: claiming she's yes to die and she's mad she had
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: to take the test, she's also clearly very happy that
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: she passed the test.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: I am still unhappy that we didn't get to see
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: the braid get burned off. She just comes out with
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: the braid burned off. The braid was such an important
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: character and it didn't give a death scene. Kisses me off.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that a couple of years ago,
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: when someone did a wat idol parody about the braid,
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: there was a line about the off sen offscreen death
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: and how rude that was. I'm pretty sure that that
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: was specifically referenced in that parody. Might have been this year,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: I don't remember. It's all a blur. Nieves suggest maybe
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: bringing rand into this fight, maybe that would be helpful,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: and Igwaine says, no, the fate of the world rest
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: on this, but we don't need help from no stinking
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: dragon reborn. We can do this ourselves, and with that
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: we to parent, and with that we pov switched to
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: paren who has done his rocky training montage and is
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: entering the POV at full tilt, crashing into a his
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: umpteenth nightmare in his training montage, and you know breaks
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: it apart and immediately complains to Hopper that it took
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: still took him a couple of minutes. It should have
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: been faster.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Done a dun all right, rocky music playing in the background,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: except like, take my bad singing and like put actual
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: rocky music into the podcast. Right there, Parent hit the
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: nightmare running. The air bent around him in the city
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: houses this time of Kyrie inne flat top variety disappeared.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: The road became soft beneath his feet like mud, then
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: turned to liquid. He's splashed in the ocean water again,
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: he thought, with annoyance. Deep red lightning crashed in the sky,
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: throwing waves of bloody light across the sea. Each burst
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: revealed shadowed creatures lurking beneath the waves, massive things, evil
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: and sinuous. In the spasming red light. People clung to
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: the wreckage of what had once been a ship, screaming
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: in terror and crying out for loved ones. Men on
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: broken boards, women trying to hold their babies above the
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: water as towering waves broke over them dead bodies bobbing
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: like sacks of grain. The things beneath the waves struck,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: snatching people from the surface and dragging them into the
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: depths with splashes of fins and sparkling razor sharp teeth.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: The water was soon bubbling red that didn't come from
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: the lightning. Whoever had dreamed this particular nightmare had a
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: singularly twisted imagination. Parn refused to let himself be drawn in.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: He squelched his fear and did not swim for one
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: of those planks. It isn't real. It isn't real. It
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: isn't real.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Nice. Nice. I think that's going to be just so
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: incongruous with the like upbeat, rocky music and twist it
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: horful scene. You know, I said, in the last time
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: we saw parents, he was doing his rocky montage, and
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: like here he is just like succeeding. Like this is
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: a long scene. It's it's really visceral and intense and scary,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: but it ends with him going, damn, I haven't beat
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: my own time yet, Like he's clearly done this so
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: many times at this point.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: The way he kind of transitions it reminds me of
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: like the Magic Eye things where you're like trying to
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: look at it and like trying to focus and make
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: that image pop out, and then like it does and
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: you just it happens, right all of a sudden. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: and like I kind of imagine just practicing with the
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: magic eyebook.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: It's kind of a matter of focus and uh uh huh. Yeah.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: But you know, this is this is your classic what
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: you have to do in an actual nightmare, right, you
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: have to wake yourself up, convince yourself this is a dream.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: I can manipulate it. I can choose to wake up. Like,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: this is how you deal with nightmares. This is how
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: I deal with nightmares, and how a lot of people
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: I talk to deal with nightmares, being able to control
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: it and tell it no, no, no, I know what's happening.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: I know this is a dream. Is how you break dreams.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: So he does that. He does that very effectively, and
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Sanderson writes it in a beautifully visceral visual way. There's
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: this one line around him, the nightmare bent, a bubble
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: of reality pressing out from him, dark air, cold waves, screaming,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: people ran together like wet paint, so visual, so gloriously
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: like this this is good dream writing. Sanderson's ability to
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: paint a picture works really well when you're describing an
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: actual magic nightmare.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, and then I like the exchange between him and
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: Hopper where He's like, I just started and Hopper's like,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: you've been coming here for years, and He's like, but
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: I just seriously started training, and Hopper's like, doesn't mean
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: you weren't learning anything, And I think we have said
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: that so in times like it feels ridiculous that this
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: is when he starts training, even though he's been doing
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: stuff with Hopper for years.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean he's right, he's been resids sting
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: the education up until a few weeks ago, and now
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: he's leaning in. That is a different thing. I also
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: like that Parent's like measuring himself against nightmares, saying, well,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Slayer's gonna be worse than this, Layer's gonna be faster,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: and Propper's like, ah, I mean, honestly, Slayer's not as
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: strong as a nightmare, dude. And we see in the
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: actual fight between them that Slayer has been very good
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: at avoiding nightmares. And that's what actually gives Parent an
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: edge is that Parent trains on nightmares and Slayer trains
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: on avoiding nightmares. So I do think that it's you know,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: it's like if you tell someone what the world record
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: is for a thing, they will beat it right kind
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: of regardless. Like we used to think that, like a
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: what six minute mile was impossible or something like that
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: because people just hadn't done it yet. I feel like
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: Parent's kind of deliberately playing with that dynamic for himself,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: being like, Okay, if I set myself up to be
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: able to beat literal nightmares, then the lone Man of
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: Slayer should be a little bit underpowered for what I'm
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: worried about. Well, that rules, Vougie. That's awesome. I'm usually
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: just as soon as I start to get slightly loose
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: to the dream breaks and I wake up.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: So what I hate is this. I've had a sleep
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: paralysis where you're trying to wake up and you're fighting
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: it and you cannot.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: I've had that happen three times, and I remember all
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: of them very distinctly, and it is the fucking worst.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: It's it's terrifying, and it's the one place where I'm like,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: I'm actually terrified and I don't know why, Like you're
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: in this like you're in a terror state. Yeah, that
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: you wake up into and it's it's crazy because you're like,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: I don't have a reason for this.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: And not being able to move, like really not being
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: able to move is like, Okay, now I'm starting to
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: get a good reason to be afraid, Like, am I
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: ever gonna be able to wake up again?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: Like?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: What is?
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: What is wrong? Now? I hate sleep paralysis. I'm so
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: glad it's happened to me so a few times.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: It's what I imagine locked in syndrome is like, like
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: except forever.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: Right. One assumes that there are states of being comatose
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: that have elements of that. Because we know so little
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: about comas, I'm like, I'm just gonna map this on
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: to the great unknown of what comas are like and
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: assume that this is part of it for some people, it's, uh,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: you can imagine just being stuck there forever.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: For me, whenever I have sleep proalysis, I'm always in
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: my head, I'm screaming help as loud as I can,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm not making any noise. And I've had a
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: couple of people, you know, like my wife said basically
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: it's only happened like once or twice since I've known her,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: But basically I was like, oh, did you hear anything?
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, you were. You were totally silent and
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: then you jerked violently and he said help, and then
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: you were awake.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: Once it finally gets out, because yeah.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: But it's like in my head, I've been doing that
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: for minutes.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, not my favorite sucks.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If you don't have it, consider yourself blessed. It's
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: it's very unpleasant.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: There's some really good like Renaissance era paintings of sleep
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: paralysis that is like, eh, yeah, if I believed in demons,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: that is exactly how I would envision this experience.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: No. I mean there's so many things in our life
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: that are explained by science that if I didn't know
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: what it was, I would think I was being haunted
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: or possessed or absolutely some you know something was coming
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: for me. Yeah.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, science has a candle in the dark.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: Is really real, even just our own brains, right, the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: way we hear our own voice in our head. A
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: lot of people attributed that to God's talking to them.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and understanding how a hallucination can manifest like
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: mechanically and be like, oh, like this is what happens
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: when like my hearing is damaged versus when like my
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: auditory processing part of my brain is confused, and like
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: it takes a lot of knowing about how the human
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: body and brain work to be like, oh, I think
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: I just misheard you versus no, the sound was so garbled,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: I heard something else entirely.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: I hallucinate music in our window box fan all the
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: time if there's no other noise going on.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, oh yeah, yeah, fans. It's so easy to
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: just hear like a repeating half bar, and eventually, finally
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: your conscious brain is like, I've been hearing that half
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: bar for the last thirty minutes. I don't think this
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: is music. I think this is actually white noise.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Oh no, for me, it's not. I don't hear a
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: half bar. I hear a soul song playing in the background.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Like my mind hallucinates music like I'm not hearing like
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: a repeated like I hear music where I'm like, is
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: that playing on the radio somewhere far away?
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I feel like that for like a good
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: long while, And eventually I realized that it's been the
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: same music the whole time. There's no song, but's thirty
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: minutes long. That's that's not or like being near a
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: train that is slowing down or where the rails are
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: really screechy, but especially if they're putting on the brakes,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: the different high screaming overtones can turn into music real
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: easy if you're at the right distance. If you're too
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: close to it, it just hurts. But if you're the
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: right distance away, it will turn into this like violin
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: symphony quite easily, at least in.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: My head, which I mean, yeah, it's vibrations, right, Like
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: that's all a violin is is just noise and vibrations,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: It's just tuned a little differently.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. And some music is just math, you know.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, words, well all music is math, really.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But like I mean, it's everything's math. Everything's math.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: It's true, everything is math. I'm just saying it's like
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: music isn't just in the eye of the beholder, right,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: Sometimes things that are mathematically sure, imprecise and not quote
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: unquote correct sound beautiful to us because our brains are
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: silly little monkeys. But like, some music is just math.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: There's no need to be creative about it. So if
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: you just have random noise, sometimes you'll get music because math.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: One of the most impressive people groups of people that
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: I ever encountered were music and engineered or music and
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: physicist duel majors. Oh yeah, like those people. One they
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: operate on a whole different level of art and intuitive science.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: And second of all, both of those things take an
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: insane amount of time, and to do both of them
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: at the same time, you have no life. Like people
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: don't joke about engineers being busy in college, and it's like, yeah,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: pile Like, the two hardest majors at least the college
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: I went to, were engineering in music. So the dual
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: majors in those were just they were insane people. They
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: were absolutely insane people and some of the most talented
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: group people I've ever met.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all the musicians I know, and I know a
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: lot of musicians because my mom is one, most of
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: them didn't go to school for music. But man, music
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: takes a lot of time. It's just like one way
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: or another. Music is such an all encompassing thing to do,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: Like to imagine applying that in an academic context while
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: also being an engineering student. This seems like a lot.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: That seems like a lot.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: And the reason I know about those people is purely
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: by reputation because you never saw them at.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: A socialis sure, sure, you kind of meet my friends
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: sometime if he ever comes out of the cave, which
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: he won't.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they won't.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, how did we get onto music as math
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: and engineering?
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: We were avoiding talking about gowin oh oh.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: I didn't even realize that that's where we were, So
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: my subconscious was really work. It hard to protect me
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: on that one.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: Because I don't have anything else with Paren. Just they
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: do the training montage and then he's like, let's go
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: do another one, right, it's like another rep The only.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: Thing else that I had in that was just the
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: note that the tell I run red wolves are running
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: as packs to Dragon Mount rather than shifting there. And
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: I think that's interesting that, like and Paren actually, like
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: in the page before he walks over to Hopper rather
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: than shifting across the street to get to him. It
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: feels right to do some things normally, and I feel
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: like that's what all the wolves in the dream are doing. Like, no,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: we need to gather and commute to the battle. We
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: can't just think ourselves there. It doesn't feel right.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: A religious pilgrimage. If you will the last battle.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the pilgrimage is part of the process.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Right, Like people don't fly. Yeah, you're supposed to walk
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: to that area, right, totally.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's all I have for that. And then yeah,
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: we have to get to a Gowens section that there's
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: Are you gonna say it's slightly less annoying than normal,
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: because I'm gonna have to push back on that one.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: I was almost gonna say that, and then I realized
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: that that's not true. If there's something different about this section,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: I think it's because Elaine features so heavily in it.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: We're not just in Gwen's head. We're actually really getting
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of him talking to someone for the bulk
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: of the thing. But the Gowen Elaine banter feels like
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: something that should be charming and witty and instead is
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: just kind of immature and grating, if that makes sense.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: It's like when you visit your family and you revert
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: back to being a twelve year old and you like
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: have the same stupid arguments that you had with your
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: siblings and parents when you were twelve.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like that, And I feel like Sanderson wrote
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: it to be not that, but he failed. Maybe that's
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: just me projecting too much. But I wanted to, like
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: a go on actually talking his problems out with Alane.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: I really wanted like, hey, keep the parties are communicating.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: They're like talking directly, like this should be good, this
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: should be redeeming, and.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: It just isn't because this is what he should be doing, right,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: he should be being like, you're right, I'm done with Agwayne.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: I should be your first prince. I don't care. I
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: appreciate that you're not giving me an obligation to be
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: the captain commander. But you know what, Agwayne doesn't want me.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: I need to be my own man. Maybe if I
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: can establish myself as a power here in Camlin, i'll
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: be somebody she's interested in.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: Maybe I should return to what I was going to
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: do my whole life and find myself in the thing
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: that I knew I was.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm also going to harp on my not heart,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: but I'm also going to bring up, of course, the
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Gawain compulsion theory, right that he's been compelled to follow
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: the Amberlin seat and that's why he has a lot
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: of unclear answers as to why he hasn't shown up
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: to be the cap the commander right, because he was
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: supposed to be and he was compelled not to, and
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: so he kind of has to justify it in his
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: own head in the way that Morgaze has to justify
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: that she loved Gabrielle right in her own head.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: You have these like I don't really know why I
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: didn't show up, but I just didn't feel like I
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: could do it. I was entangled, right, this idea that
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: like maybe he didn't have free will in this situation,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: and only once Agway he's again. Once Agwayne becomes the Ambulin,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: he can obey her and he can do things. He
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: can basically gain back some free will because she's the
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: Amberlin in quotes that he now has to obey yeah
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: or I or if he was supposed to obey Alida,
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: she's gone, right, so he has no he can't do anything.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: He can't follow her lead if the compulsion was specific
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: to Alida, right.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: And then Elaine also digs into his hate of Rand
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: and you know, manages to dig down to like it's
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: just jealousy. And I almost want that to be compulsion
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: based too, because I just don't get jealousy. I just
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: don't get it to be easy to explain it as magic.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: That yeah, no, that seems different. That doesn't seem like
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: it's related at all. Godwin is just a spoiled little
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: princeling who's jealous of a sheep herd are doing a
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: better job. But also, like, part of the reason that
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Godwin's doing such a shit job is because of the compulsion.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: So maybe some of his anger at Rand has misplaced
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: anger at the woman who compelled him to ruin his life.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know, mm hmm, but yeah, she basically says, yes,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: I'm pregnant by Rand. I wouldn't tell you if I was,
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: but I am. Right. He feels sick about that, and
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: she's like, listen, he didn't kill her mother. She disappeared
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: long before Rand showed up. A bunch of people say
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: it right, like and obviously he wouldn't do it, you know.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, like Godwin's being he's
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: causing the roses to wow, Well, no man caused the
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: roses to bloom. Well except for one. The dragon is
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: one with the land.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: This is not secret knowledge. This is like a prophecy.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: And shit, you're educated, So then we so they're walking
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: through the garden, right, Gowan shows up at this rooftop
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: garden thing, not the rooftop garden, but the inner garden,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: the garden where they met Rand coincidentally, and they go
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: over to the pond and we get truly an obnoxious
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: amount of exposition on the pond incident that's been being
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: referred to throughout the books many many times. And I
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: have a couple of critiques, Okay, I mean one, it's
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: just this is this is taking a lot of the
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: magic out of things. Have you ever heard of the
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: noodle incident as like a trope structure thing? No, it's
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: a reference to Calvin and Hobbes. Calvin and Hobbes they
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: reference the noodle incident many many times, and it's there's
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: never a panel about it. There is no strip with
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: the noodle incident. But it's a thing that they can reference.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: And so it's part of this world building, right that
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: the noodle incident is a thing that you never saw
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: but does influence the characters. And so I remember watching
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: in osp video overly sarcastic Productions video about that as
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: kind of like a trope archetype, and this is taking
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: a noodle incident and explaining it, and it's like you
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: just you just popped the bubble and took the magic out.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: And the magic is that Elaine selfishly endangered Gwen because
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: she was a brat and never understood that Gawen literally
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: almost died and Goalad had to save him. And then
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: Gowen's been carrying the blame for being knocked into the
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: water because they were two little kids playing and it
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: was just an accident. And it's like this whole shaping
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: part of his personality and Agwain has no Elaine has
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: no fucking idea how much she influenced him, Like this
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: is the worst way you could ruin a noodle incident.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very attack of the clones, right, Like that
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: was a reference in the original Star Wars where he's like,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: your father fought in the Clone walls, right, and you're like, okay,
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: cool reference. What are the Clone Wars? I don't know,
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: I don't care, but it's cool, right, And then they
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: made a fucking movie. You had it. There we go
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: there we ruins it, right, Yeah, And and this is
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: very much like he's doing an attack of the Clone
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: Wars here, or it's like the noodle.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, so attack So the Clone Wars and
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 2: the noodle incident are the different ways of saying the
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: same thing as far as this shape.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: Right, well, here's here's the thing. The noodle incident they
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: never showed you, right.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: Right, okay, So the clone wars is what happens when
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: you fuck up a noodle incident.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, when you fuck up a noodle incident.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'll put the osp video in the show
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: notes just in case anyone's like really annoyed he's saying
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: noodle incident A thousand times.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: You fuck up on noodle incident, you get a clone wars.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So yeah, this is I find this to
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: be frustrating on a lot of different levels. And the
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: fact that like literally a Laine basically accidental like accidentally
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: almost you know, seriously hurt her brother and then Galad
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: like got mad at it, gowing for I just I
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: don't know, so gowin in a lane in a little
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: rowboat on a little pond, that doesn't even justify a rowboat.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: Continuing to talk about Gwin's purpose in life and a
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: gwayn so.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: In particular, I want to talk about why he couldn't
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: join her and what he says about why he couldn't
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: join her. She says, I worried about you during the
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: Steeche I could have used you in the fighting, but
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: you stayed away. I explained that Elaine I was embroiled
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: in the White Tower politics. Not to mention, the winner snows.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: It burns me that I couldn't help. But those women
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: had their fingers on me.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so weasily.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Those women had their fingers on me, maybe like with
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: the one power, maybe with compulsion. Right, this idea that
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: like I couldn't join you because I was being manipulated.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like by like what, like what blackmail
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: did they have over you? Like what are you? Yeah,
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: it's so weak of an excuse. Once he's finally on the.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: Spot, and then he says, you're one of the good ones,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: which is always a nice racist thing to say.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hate all of them except you because I
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 2: know you you Yeah.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: And then anyway, you're right, I should have been there.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: I don't know what other apologies you expect me to make, though, right,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: he acknowledges I should have been there, and he doesn't
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: really know why he couldn't make it, And to me, again,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: I feel like this is his brain working around compulsion.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean either that or as a terrible writing
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: choice in Sanderson is trying to massage it around into
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: something that the fans can get behind. I like compulsion better, and.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: I apologize to everyone who's sick of me hearing this argument,
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: but you're gonna hear me bring it up every time
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: there's evidence, because otherwise I just can't get through the
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: gowin sections I find I find him being this annoying
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: on his own, to be just insufferably boring and stupid.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so he has not been moping, He's been pondering,
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: and he finally gets an explanation for why Brigada doesn't
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: like him, and it's because she thinks that he should
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: be taking her job and she doesn't want her job
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: Captain General.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: And again, why isn't he Why isn't he stepping up
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: and doing things? I think it's because he knows he
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: has to return. I think the compulsion is pulling on him.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, his devotion to Agwayne, magical or otherwise, is such
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: that he's he's here to punish her. He's not here
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: to find a new life. He's not actually trying to
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: find himself or discover who he is he's just there
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: to punish her.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I never really thought about it that way,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: but you're right. It is just because it's like when
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: you're fighting with someone and you say go away and
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: they say fine, and they like take a flight across
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: the country and take a week vacation in San Francisco,
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: and you're like, not what I meant.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And he's also stomping off to his room
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: and waiting for her to come to him, apologizing and
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: asking for him to please take her back.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: He's folded arms, face in the corner like he's waiting
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: for her to come to him. Right. The only reason
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: he doesn't go back to at the end of this
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: chapter is because when she comes to him, it's this
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: you know, well, I'm sorry that you feel that way
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: kind of bullshit and in Sylvia on his voice and
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: all that. But like he's he's just waiting for her
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 2: to come to him. He has no desire to pick
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: up the pieces of his life and discover who he
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: is without her.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: I have to read this out loud. Let mind it full.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: It's great. I'll buy into the Gwain compulsion theory. If
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: we also agreed the compulsion was removed like the Neve
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: did with Kerb, leaving only remnants of a brain. Oh perfect,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: I'm going with it. I'm going with it. It was
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: removed when Grendel she took off and removed the compulsion
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: from him when she like, I don't know.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't even care. It's fine, I.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: Don't even care. Maybe Masana took it off at some point,
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: because it was Massana like after okay here, it was
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: on him during the rebellion for a while, and then
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: Masana was like, eh, let's go kill him, send him
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: out to go die. I'll take the compulsion off of him.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't super heavy like it was with because
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: Curb was completely hallowed out to be a complete automaton.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: Gowen was just tweaked a little bit, so right right right.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: It just gave him some minor significant brain damage.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but like you know, he still has his language
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: centers and his ability to ride a horse. Right. He
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: was not like literally dying as like a gibbering idiot.
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: He would have been pretty enough for Grandall. He's too
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: stupid for grand although.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: He's powerful and she doesn't care about smarts. She cares
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: about power and looks.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: That's true because she installs it, because she installs whatever
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: she wants. And yes, she should have taken Gwen. That
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: would have been an amazing, horrifying scene for Rand to
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: like see Gwen in the crowd of people right before
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: you know, the bailfire or something like that, like and
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: some evidence that like Gowen was there, and he's like, no,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: I could have saved him, right something.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: Or Gowin and Gollin. I mean, Golled's even prettier, right,
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: he's the pretty one.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's less powerful though, but he's prettier.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: So is he?
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know. He's the leader of the white Cloaks.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: That's leader of an army that rules a nation.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: Basically, well, I was thinking several books ago, like back
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: when she would have snatched them up, Like he's he's
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: the not even spare saved on compulsion waste, like this
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: is an economy in this economy can save that shit?
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: But okay, yeah, back to my theory. Elaine says, oh, Gowin,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: what happened to you? He was compelled? Yeah, Like that's
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: a personality change, right, Like and he says, Brin thinks
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: I was too accustomed succeeding, and I don't know how
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: to react when things started to upend on me. Fine,
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: that's a pretty if you want to be like, okay, yeah, everything.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: He's a golden boy. Essentially, he breathed through high school
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: without doing any homework, right, and then he got to
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: college and things were actually hard. You could you could
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: say that was his problem.
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: That's what Brent thinks is his problem.
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: That's what Brent thinks his problem. But Awayne says, and
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: what do you think? He doesn't answer. He says, I
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: think it's good for me to be here, But he
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't say anything about what went wrong because he was
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: compelled and his mind just skips over it.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I. It's the farther we get into this,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: the more Sanderson tries to dig Gwen out, the more
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: evidence he gives us for compulsion being the only explanation. M.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: I fully understand there's nothing hard about that, right, that's
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: not probably what the authors had in mind when they
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: were writing these scenes. I understand that I don't care.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't care either. I don't care with you.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: So Elaine tries really hard to give Gawen relationship advice.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: You know that I have armies full of men who
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: are willing to die for me. What I need is
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: a man who will do the dishes without being asked, right,
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: And Gowan's like, that sounds like some woke feminist bullshit,
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: and I'm not really sure I can accept that sort
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: of an impingement on my personal freedoms. It's like literally
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: how it reads literally? She says, can you be a
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: supportive partner that doesn't need a list to do basic housework?
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: And he says, wow, slavery much.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it is. It's you need a partner
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: which is not someone who like I have people who
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: I can That's something I think both when planning the
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: wedding and wat Con that I found was very true.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: I don't need someone to say what can I do
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: for you? Because by the time I tell you what
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: I need, come up with it, describe it to you,
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: communicate that with you, answer your questions, it would have
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: been faster for me to do it myself. What I
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: need for you to do is figure out what I need,
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: do it, and then present me with a finished product. Right.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: And it's as someone who's offered my services many times
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: by saying, tell me what you can do it's a
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: real rude awakening to realize. And I think even even
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: in doing the podcast in the beginning, there's a lot
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: of people when the podcast was growing and taking off
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: who were like, what can I do? Right? And I
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know what you can do right,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know who you are, I don't know what
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: you know. But a radio was like, I can correct you.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: That's true, it's true, and.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: That's why she's the co host now, right, Like yeah,
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: And that's the sort of the energy that like the
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: people who got involved in the podcast often came to
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: me and just said like, here's what I can do
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: for you, and I said, go for it. The people
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: who said let me know what I can do, I said, well,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: can you do this? And oftentimes the answer would be oh, no,
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: I don't have those skills or oh I don't have
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: that time. And I'd be like, well then I don't.
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: It's going to take me more work to come up
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: with something for you to do.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Even with my I struggle with this so much.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: I'm really bad at delegating, Like even with my autistic
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: stuff for Artistic People podcast, I've got my co host
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: over there saying I want to help you with publishing,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: and I'm just like, I don't even know how to
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: separate myself from this task.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: Eight pages left in this college.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, Okay, we got this.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: We got this, we got this, we got this.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: So do we need to talk about Elaine doing deconstructive
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: therapy on Goblin's jealousy of Rand? Who did I already car?
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: Oh my god? Yeah, like he didn't kill him. I've
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: got evidence you hate him. This isn't about mother.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hate what he's become. A tyrant?
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: You mean a ruler? You mean like a hero, you
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: mean like a good guy.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: He's a sheep? What right does he have to cast
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: down thrones?
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: And there it is.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: There we go, being classiest.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: Ass all the way down. Yeah, and we we have
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: a anchor for Goblin's jealousy of Rand that has never
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: made any sense to us. Why he's believed the rumors,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: why he doesn't like it. He's an uppity, no good,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: redheaded farmer who thinks that he can rule. I am
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: the blood of more Gase, I am a trick can't
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: I am king Bread? I should be ruling and he
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: thinks he can. Meanwhile, I'm stuck out in the middle
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: of a swamp, killing my friends, and he's becoming the
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: hero now. Not no mention of all the suffering he's
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: gone through in that time, no idea what RAN's gone
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: through to get where he is. He's just had an
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: easy ride onto being a hero.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: Like, no sense of we've both been fucked over by
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: eyes to die. There's tons of things that you guys
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: have in common being screwed over by Elida and her ilk,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: but no, none of that is relevant.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: You both have the same brother.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: You literally saw him get kidnapped and tortured. It's really
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: nice when someone finally reveals who they really are. Oh,
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: Gowen is like, you know, racist Essentially, he's a classist eugenicist.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: He's racist. He thinks he's better than other people because
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: of his breeding, or.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: At least that's how Sanderson's writing him. But yeah, I mean,
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: why else how else do you explain his attitudes right
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: towards rand.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: Oh Foujie's putting it the best. He's a salty princeling
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: who wanted to be the hero. That's yes, that is
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: the way he's a salty princeling. That's the efficient way
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: to say it.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: Now, and if you want to crouch this in the
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: compulsion argument, which I always will. He is compelled to
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: hate Rand and he has to therefore justify it some
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: way in his own head. And so this is not
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: normally something he would think or say, but because he
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: has no other way to justify his hatred, and he
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: has to justify in his own head, because that's how
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: our brains work, right, If you do a thing, you
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: have to justify it. They've done studies.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he really is leaving a lot of reasons on
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: the table by not getting mad at that man for
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: touching his sister.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of rage on the table he's
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: not taking advantage of.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: I think there's a little bit of like, yeah, but
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: Elaine wanted to touch him, and I am I'm not
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: about to control on that. She's crazy. That's where he
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: definitely thinks to himself, like, oh, I can't believe, but
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: Elaine is the kind of person who would so like
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: he immediately is like, yeah, that's that's Elaine's bag.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: That's fair, that's fair, all right. So Elaine gives him
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: a very good rejoinder, which is that's not jealousy, it's selfishness.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: You want to kill this man because you have weird
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: brain pretzels, Like what does that do for the rest
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: of the world. You literally want to be he He
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: thinks he's the hero and he wants to single handedly
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: destroy the world's chance to survive. Like that is literally
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: anti hero. Sorry, so Elaine calls him out.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but he never changes that attitude. That's why he dies.
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: He thinks he's the hero. He thinks he can take
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: out the general of the enemy, the one who's devastating,
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: who's got the power, who is devastating armies. He thinks
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: he can personally go up against this guy. Yeah, he
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: thinks he's the hero.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's completely selfish. He would risk the world, he
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: would risk Agwayne, he would risk everything to satisfy his
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: go and feel like a special boy.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: I do think it's fun though, that we would probably
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: all be more like Gawain than Rand if we were
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: in this story. I mean, she and then turn out No, you're.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: Really I mean we hate that which we see reflected
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: about ourselves. We would all love to be Rand, but
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: we all probably would be more like Going. And it's
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: and he is well paired to a Gwain in the
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: way that. You know Elaine reads them both. You know
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: a Gwaine needs you. She may not realize it. She
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 2: may be convinced she needs to hold up the world herself.
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: She's wrong. Same can be said for Gowin. He thinks
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: he can save the world with a few sword swings.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: Agwayne thinks she can save the world with a few weaves.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: You know, they are well matched in that regard, and
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: go have Hubris together, fly too close to the Sun together.
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: That's true. The difference is a GWayne does save the
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: world with a weave?
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: Well, sure, yeah, they're different.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: The bail fire he loses. She stops the bail fire
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: from destroying the planet.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: Would she have had the inspiration and so feeling necessary
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: to do that weave if she hadn't just lost her
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: husband toward her.
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, because she does it in small quantities beforehand. It's
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: not like she discovers the weave in that moment.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but like she discovered it five minutes prior, and
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: then she uses it to take out what's his face? Yeah,
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: I don't think she would have taken out what's his
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: face if she wasn't all sad?
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, I'm not. We can debate it when we
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: get to that scene, right, But I don't think there
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: was a need to kill herself in that moment to win.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, probably not. Elaine absolves him of his responsibilities. He
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: feels cast off by another woman and unsettled by it,
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: and then they part ways. He feels better. He goes
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: strolling off through the gardens, being like, well, Elaine's optimism
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: is still nice to be around, even if she made
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: me feel weird with the whole being absolved her responsibilities. Basically,
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: he hates not having a strong woman tell him what
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: to do, even though he also hates having a strong
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: woman tell him what to do.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: You know, the paradox of man.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: He wants to have direction. He's like, no, don't give
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: me no responsibilities, but also like, you can't tell me
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: what to do, You're just a woman. Like he's really
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: in a complicated, little brain pretzel of his own making.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: At this point, he.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: Wants to be told what to do. He just doesn't
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 1: want anyone see him being told what to do, which is.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: Just like, get over yourself. I mean, I get it.
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: He's in his early twenties. I had not gotten over
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: myself at that point, but get over yourself. It's the
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: end of the world.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and even here, all right, more compulsion evidence. Talking
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: about Elaine, she seemed to grow more legal by the day.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: It was like watching a flower boom. He wished he'd
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: been in Camlin to view the process from the start,
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: and why wasn't he Because he couldn't be because he
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: was compelled. Yeah again, light binding fool. The Gollwain hates great.
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: By the way, Gawin does have a worder record fastest
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: replacement time because all the other ones grieved. Agwayne was like, nah,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: I don't need to grieve, give me another one.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: I mean that lasted for like three days.
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I know, I know, which is sad because
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: I one hundred percent now and we've talked about this,
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: but I think Llewellyn would have been a better order
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: to Agwayne from the beginning. And I think it would
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: have been cool to never see her bond Gowin, Yeah,
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: it would.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: Have been cool if he'd come back. And she's like,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: I have a stern faced shan Chan woman. And also
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: here's her pirate.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: Husband, right, go help your sister.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, basically shure. Then Gowan does this really hilarious moment
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: where he absolves Althor of his mutual hatred. He's like,
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: you know what we're done now? I mean, like, what
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: does he say We're done from now on? I care
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: nothing for you. Rand's like, who are you?
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly that meme.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean technically Rand does know whatever he is.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 2: But yes, I never think about you at all, exactly,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what that is. But it makes Godwin feel better,
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: you know it It calms down that, you know, incipient
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: ulcer that he was working on life planted full you
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: are full of pison vinegar today. Is it possible Gowan
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: can also channel and compulse himself. No, we know channeling
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: doesn't work that way.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: No, I don't think you can convince like. You can't
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: heal yourself. I don't think you could compel yourself.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: You can't heal yourself. You can't tickle yourself. You probably
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: can't compel yourself. But if anyone can, it would be
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: broken Bay into Gowan. Maybe he's like got like multiple
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: personalities and they have like the different you know, brain
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: waves layouts.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: It is canon that Gallid can channel, right, so maybe
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: it was Galid did something to him one of his.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: Early you know, we tried to make Gowan always do
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: what is right. He wanted it really, really bad, and
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: then Gowen ended up with a very weird form of compulsion. Yes,
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: to follow the strongest like authority figure who claims authority
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: over him, and anytimes someone doesn't claim authority over him,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: he gets really upset. Yeah, he's just convinced he's the hero.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: He's just really every morning in the mirror, he's telling
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: himself that, like, this is his day to save the world.
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: He's just convinced of it.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: So as he's walking along, he pulls out his shawn
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: Chan assassin dagger to play with in front of a
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: shan Chan who's you know, a Suldoan former school. This
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: is the.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: That's right, we start with the formers of Mona, who
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: gives him a clue, and then he dig deeper with
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: a former soooldob that's right, and she's being walked by
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: the Kin.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: The Kin are sort of on the edges of this.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 2: He doesn't really understand who they are, but he notices
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: this woman who I think is probably also a fan
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 2: name what.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: Is it, mama? Look at it? She's been around since
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: the Path of Daggers.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool, So she's just a member of the Kin.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: So she's doing the thing where like they're walking around
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: these women trying to get them used to their freedom.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: And yeah, recognizes the knife in Gawa's hand because she
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: saw one hanging on a wall once, you know, in
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 2: one of her owners' homes. And so Gowan gets his
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: first clues about the knife.
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: Morel is the one who's Dema. Demana is the kin
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: and she's walking Morell, who's the former Suldo.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: Ah, yes, is Morel a fan name.
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, former Demane. Sorry, Morrell is not not Merrell.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: Merrell obviously Merrell.
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: She's been around since Winter's Heart. So this is this
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: is bringing forward that group of people who was taken
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: out of.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: They didn't take take Shawan Chan with them though. That
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 2: time Rand sent the shawn Chan two.
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: Oh that's right, that's right.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: He captured during the campaign where he lightened his own troops.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: I forget which country that was in.
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: Right, just it was against the shawn Chan forces as
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: they advanced. It doesn't really matter what country it was in.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 2: It was yeah, yeah, yeah, and they were he was
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: capturing those pairs and he just sent them onto a lane.
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: It was Alion, Yeah, that's right. And Elaine was like,
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 2: why do you keep sending me these I don't know
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: what to do with them. And now her plan is
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: to train them to talk about the fact that they
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: are the shan Chan are using women who can channel
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: as respected members of society as well as as and
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 2: that that's going to crumble everything. So that's where these
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: women are coming from. But like you said, the kids
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: women have been with Elaine since the flight from Abu Dhar. Yeah,
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: he was warring with them all. It was the second
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: time Rand went to serious war with the shan Chan
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 2: and the time that he lightened his own troops.
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: As was the first time, which was just using the
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: horn right exactly.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: So he gets basically the Wikipedia summary of what a
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: blood knife is. He gets the name the little like
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: propaganda slogan for what they are. But this is fundamentally
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: a low level grunt who was never given a formal
• 1:37:48
  Speaker 2: education in things, and the kinswomen are like, you know,
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: we have a suldom who was of the low blood.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: She was educated.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: She does come from the other side of that ignorance
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: of that this former Demani is behind. So we can
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: go deeper into this than Wikipedia summary. We can click
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: the hyperlink. We just have to go get this weird
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: woman who we don't totally trust.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: And she's got this weird because she's accepted that she
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: can channel, but still believes in the sean Chan hierarchy
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: and so thinks she should be made Demane. What she's
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: missing is the fact that all the school domin need
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: to be made Demani. And then you don't have any
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: suoldam left.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's mid brain pretzel and the thing that does
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: not actually have sustainable internal consistency. But you know that's
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: where she's at. And this is Gowain's first proof of
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: the fact that he's right that there's multiple threats at Aguayin. Right,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: this is him because he learns about the fact that
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: these are suicide trips. Yes, finally, my suspicion that there's
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: something other than Masana going on here has real concrete evidence.
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: And Kais is named for Jennifer Kaiser, a fan of
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: the Wheal Time.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: Nice but yeah she is. You know, she's kind of
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: like more gazed when she first went incognito, or like
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: when Elaine is trying to go incognito at like the
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: bows feel mocking to people who are used to getting
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: bow too, and she's she's just a whole different category
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: of Sean Chan than a former demane. This is a
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: former soooldom And yeah, the whole thing was like she
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: wants to maybe learn the weaves so she can cause
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: an accident to justify getting leashed, and she's like, God,
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: what offers to try to get her leash? And that's
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: what gets her to cooperate, Like she's she's in a
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: weird way.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: She's damn she hates herself, right, yes, yes, It's it's
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: like a racist finding out they have an ancestor of
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: the race they hate, you know, like a direct ancestor, yeah,
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: you know, or multiple direct ancestors. And it's like, oh,
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: I'm terrible, And it's like, well no, but you believe
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: that the category you're now in is terrible.
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, Like when you have people who are
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: of a specific marginalization join a hate group that's like
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: against their own Marginalization's like, what are you doing? This
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't make sense? But self hatred.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: Log cabin Republicans here we come.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: It's a weird thing.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: Weird thing is it's like a Republican coming out is
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: gay but still believing that gay people shouldn't be able
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: to marry each other, right, and there are those people,
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: There are those people out there.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: Who wise, what's up. Yeah, it's it's I mean, there
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: was so many examples across every hate gred you could
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: ever pick. Yeah, it's it's really self hate. Is it
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: does give a certain kind of dopamine to direct that
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 2: hate it yourself, I guess. But it's really corrosive. It's
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: really really corrosive.
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: Like blinded fool. I do like that map because it
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: does have it labels all the unclaimed land and shows
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: you where the actual claimed countries are.
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: Oh that's a good map.
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it's really helpful to realize how much
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: of the world is basically empty.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: And not necessarily uninhabited. Right, those unclaimed places still.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: Have people in them, yes, some of them.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there's areas that are less but yeah, Oh
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: that's a much better map than just Oh, that's really good.
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: And it sort of helps you understand like why far
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: Matting is in the middle of nowhere, why tar Vallin's
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere right, like right right, and
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: that and that and or despite being big, isn't that
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: much bigger than Kyrieenne. It's just sort of elongated. It's
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: kind of like chili.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah that is huh. Wow, that's a really interesting perspective
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 2: on the rand Land continent.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: Map, especially if you consider like the west half of
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: and Or is basically untouched. Then you like, you see
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: how small land Or actually is.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, there's outposts that and Or claims going out
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: that way, but that's a lot of unclaimed territory as well.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: Wow, that just puts a whole new perspective on how
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: people are on the continent and how they move around
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: and what the travel limitations are on people. This is
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: not a well done map visually, but it's so information rich,
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: like with what I know that compared to the beautiful
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: blown up version I have on the wall from the books.
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: But information rich in that it is very simple and
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: that gives you information that you don't get on any
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: other map, right right.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 2: It's simplicity is its strength.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: M hm huh.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: Who made this?
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: I've seen it a handful of times before.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever seen it just.
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: On the reddit. I think the subreddit people have brought
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: it up, but I don't know where it came from.
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 2: Well, whoever made it, congrats, to you. This is a
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: really cool map. I'll put it in show notes or something.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: But yeah, new perspective on how much of it of
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: the land is just completely unclaimed.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, almost half of the continent is white and unclaimed
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: if you add.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: It all up, and really the western half of the
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: continent is just Kyrie. EN's really the only thing over there,
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: eastern Eastern thank you?
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool? Yeah, so there's a reddit post to go
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: with this.
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: Excellent.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: So that's what I'll put in the shows, is the
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: reddit post. But yeah, totally the farther east you go,
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: it just becomes Kyrie in and then even Kyrie is
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: like thinning out into just basically a buffer around the
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: road that leads to the dragon Wall.
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: And then you get a little bit of Tier in
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: the north and or Schinar in the north, tier in
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 1: the south. Right, but those kind.
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 2: Of the huge amounts of unclanned land between those and
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: Kyriee on both sides. Wow, that's I could just stare
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: at that forever thinking about all the politics of Randland
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: that I know about. Wow, that's really I am. I'm
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: with Fouji. How have I never seen this map?
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: It looks like it was created four years ago by
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: TGB Kinger in the subreddit.
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, well, TGB Kinger, thank you very much for making
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: that map. My mind has been blown today.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: And he started with a blank map from the Atlas
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: of Ice and Fire.
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: That's a really good website for web for maps, and
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: so if they've got like three D planets of the
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: world and everything.
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: So he took one of their blank maps and then
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: just he's like, I have no editing skills, but I see.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: God enough for government, good enough for getting the point across.
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, it looks amateurish, but that doesn't detract from
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: what it's trying to say. I mean, yes, technically the
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: nations are claiming much larger areas, but this is a
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: more realistic representation of what's actually inhabited.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: This is what's described as what they actually control, right,
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: as opposed to what they are on the map in
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: quotes right right.
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: Because they're going to claim big historic boundaries, and you know,
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: you can see from how unclaimed this land is that
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: it would be easy for them to get away with
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 2: it if no other country is claiming it.
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Like Ilien claims up a bunch more land
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: than that. It like extends up and it's like nope,
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: you really just don't have access to that.
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like the western half of and Or is definitely
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: fading out, like the two rivers, you could argue is
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: kind of unclaimed. They still have economic ties to and Or,
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 2: but they haven't seen queens men in generations, right, Like
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: is that really claimed? You know?
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I really do feel like you could you could
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: wall that off around Westbridge and just say, like you know,
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 1: old Menethren.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally totally. And yeah, Altara is kind of bigger
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: than it really should be, given how Thailand describes the
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: limits of her range.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, almost all of Altara's just basically should be
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: unclaimed as well, like.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 2: People who call themselves al Tarans. But like the same
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: with like Mirandi, right, Like lots of people in Mirandi
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: call themselves relative to their city rather than to the
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: nation of Mirandi unless there's someone who attacks them, right.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: I think Altara is kind of the same way. You know,
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 2: Galadan has a really like rapid turnover on its throne.
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that whole area is almost it just because it's
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: so small and together, I think is why it's claimed. Right,
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 1: It's like there's enough people living there that call themselves
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: Mirandians or al Taurans that even though the city doesn't
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 1: have a lot of control over it.
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that area between and or galad On, Murandi
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: and Murandi that is on this map Altara, like that's
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: probably like those parts of I'm totally spacing the name
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: right now, but those parts of Europe, like between France
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: and Germany that have switched back and forth so many
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 2: times that it's really its own kind of thing.
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking it's mountainous.
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: Probably, I'm looking at the map.
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's basically all mountains on the map.
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's probably totally people that live up there
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: that just really have no truck with any of those
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: fourig nations, even though they are according to this map
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: in Altara, they're probably kind of their own thing.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's sort of a ridge of mountains between
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: Altara and a Medicia. Sorry that that ridge of mountains
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: actually follows the Yeah. Yeah, So there's a ridge mountains
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: that goes south from Emmonsfield that follows the border between
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: gealod On and Altara, so that splits there, and then
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: between them there's like a valley and then there's a
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of mountains on the other side that kind
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 1: of make up Murandi. Murandy feels like a very mountainous area,
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: and so there's this kind of valley between Geladon and Muran.
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: D wonder how much like Appalachia that topography is.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it just it feels like it'd be very
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: rural and then like you come in the top of
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: that is the forest that they can't get through.
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm thinking that there are some hollers up
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 2: there that you know, the Queen's guards do not go into.
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, Gelidon or how would you say it, gild
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 1: On guild on.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, totally holy Roman Empire kind of.
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: Thing, guild on. So you think it should be two
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: syllables Guildon versus Giladn.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 2: The audiobooks can't make up their minds, so it's definitely
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: a good God yeah kind of situation on this one.
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 1: I do definitely three syllables geel like ghoule uh because
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: there's an A in between it, and then dan or dawn.
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I prefer the three syllables, but I've definitely accidentally
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: done two syllables before.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: In the same way that I don't really like moga.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: I like mogedion. Yeah, I don't. I don't like Asmodine,
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: I like Asmodian, I don't like guildn. I like giela don. Yeah,
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: I'll always add in an extra syllable.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah, because we fancy gill ladn, not gila don.
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: Okay, gil don gi ladn galden gld Oh.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: I guess I was reading the spelling on the page,
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: on the actual page, guildon it is g al don. Yeah,
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: that's a tough one. I probably do pronounce it wrong,
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: just because the audiobooks.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: Blame Michael and k I will, I will, all right,
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: you wanted to try to finish this damn chapter? No,
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 2: not really, come on, come on, we got this, We
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: got this. So so we have go in saying, oh this,
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 2: this assassin's not doing a great job, just killing a
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: couple every few days. We only got to wait for
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: a month because you know this Zamani or former suldom
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: talks about. You know, their blood will turn against them.
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: It'll kill them within a month, if not sooner, we'll
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: kill them within a month, perhaps much sooner. Say switch
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: got of what I'm out? And she says no, no, no, no, no,
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: there's gonna be a big big thing before they die,
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: Like they will not just nibble it. These are all tests.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 2: Every one of these murders is a test, stress testing
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 2: a different part of the system. There will be a
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: lot more death before these people die.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: And I feel like this is the best information we
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: get about the Blood Knives. Right, they will live about
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: a month. But they also don't rest right, they're not
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: taking their rings off. Yeah, I think we've speculated right,
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: like how long are they living? Right? But she says
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 1: once they are given a duty, they do not rest
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 1: from it.
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: That that not resting from it might still mean taking
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: the rings off because you need to wait for time
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: to pass and you need to like extend your life
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: in order for the plan to work.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe I have the feeling that that's not something they
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 1: would do. That once you're giving this ring by the Empress,
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 1: you put it on. The practicality doesn't really play into
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 1: it because it's Sean Chan and its formality. Right, The
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: idea is like once this is on, you don't stop.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: You are given the ability from the Empress, and it's
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: not like you take the ring off and otherwise the
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: ring becomes the ability. If you can take it on
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: and off, that's a.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: Really good point with the way that Shawn Chance psychology works.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: And they talk a little bit about the strategy of
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: fighting a blood knife. The more light you create, the
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: more shadows there are, which you know. Ultimately he figures
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: out the trick means you have to fight in total
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: darkness because then all things are even their advantage is neutralized.
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: If no one can see anything and.
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: There are more of them, the more you can swing anywhere.
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, she says, count yourself fortunate to have
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: survived fighting a blood knife. You must not have been
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: his or her true target. It would be prudent to
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: hide yourself until the month has passed, allow the Empress
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: to accomplish her will, and bless the omens that you
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: were given enough warning to escape and live, Which is
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: I like, how sinister that is, Like, you shouldn't have
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: survived that encounter, but you did get out while you can. Meanwhile,
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: we know that Gawain is he is so many inconcis
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: and erratic things, but we know he is running headlong
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 2: into danger. If there is a way to get himself
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 2: killed by not avoiding these guys, he's gonna take it.
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: He also survived because of skill, right, that is one
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: thing we have to give him is he is an
• 1:51:13
  Speaker 1: incredibly skilled swordsman. He will probably top five in the
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: world at this point.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: And the Blood didn't go head to head with him,
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: right like, they tried to kill him as they made
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: their escape from the scene. So his incredible skill allowed
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: him to survive the encounter because they were actively trying
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: to get away from him at the time. A lifelind off,
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: We'll take off the ring, Yeah, big time.
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get three Oh my god. And yeah him
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 1: him with the three rings. That's why it's like, yeah,
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: he's got a month with just one ring all the time,
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: but what about three rings that he takes on and off?
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: Who knows? Who knows?
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 2: And then there's this other line here where he thinks
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 2: the target was Agwaynt. Obviously, why else would the Shan
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: Shannick spend such a powerful weapon. GWayne factored zero percent
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: into them sending blood knives into the tower. When the
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 2: Shadchan decided to send blood knives in, it was just
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: to kill Marathdamani. It had zero percent to do with
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: internal tower politics.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: I do think the blood knives are trained to take
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: out the highest ranking right, so I do think that
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: they probably will try and take her out because she
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 1: is the ambulance seat and like that does the most damage.
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, but that's not why they were deployed. That's something
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: that they figured out on the ground once they'd already
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: been deployed. The Shadchin didn't choose to take down Agwayne
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: as part of the point of the raid. That's something
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: that they had to figure out in country. And Yeah,
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: then he stands there thinking, it doesn't matter how angry
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 2: she is at me, I have to give her this information.
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: And then he gets a snarky nup from Sylviana and
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 2: completely changes his mind because he is just a salty,
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: moody child. Yeah, he sends information back with the messenger,
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 2: but like he was about to go back himself until
• 1:52:56
  Speaker 2: Sylviana pissed him off.
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Ambulin was thoroughly displeased discover your departure. You
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: were never instructed to leave the city. She has asked
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: me to send this missive explaining that you have been
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: given ample time to idle in Camlin, your presence is
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: required in Tarbalan and you are to return with all haste. No, no,
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 1: that was actually said by her, right, that's just Sylviana
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: interpreting it.
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is why I say, like, this note is
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 2: in Sylviana's voice. You really like Agwayne did not editorialize
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: to that degree. That is a Sylviana editorialization.
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: Now the reply never makes it.
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 2: No, that's right. He sends the knife and a verbal warning,
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 2: and the messenger is found dead. I believe once the
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 2: dust has settled.
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: I looked into it and I just found him. Not
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: I didn't see anything about that, so I may have
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: missed it.
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: But she does say the messenger never arrived. She does,
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: in fact, never receive this information, and I.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, she never receives this information, whether they're found
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: dead or not.
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 2: I want to say that they find the messenger dead,
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 2: but I could be wrong about that. But yeah, he
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 2: gives the messenger verbal instructions written and the knife, and yeah,
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 2: it doesn't make it to her. So she's not able
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: to take appropriate precautions because he's so mad that he
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: can't just go himself.
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So in Twers of Midnight, chapter thirty eight, she
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: wakes up realizes Gowen is you know, stabbed, and she
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: never has She never gets a message from him or anything, right,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: so she thinks she never got that message let's see
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: if there's anything. Twers mid Night, chapter thirty five, Sylviana
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: reports Togwayne, there is no news from Gowin. I don't
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: have any more information on that that I can find.
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 8: All right, Well, we'll find it when it's out there,
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 8: if it's out there or not. So yeah, he's salty
• 1:54:39
  Speaker 8: a little bit and says that she can just deal
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 8: without him for a while and leaves her to her
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 8: own devices. And that is a long god damn last
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 8: the end of this chapter.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: Twers of mid Night chapter forty two, Agwayne had no
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: warning because Gowin's messenger was killed.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: Who killed the messenger?
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: Let me just go to Towersan mid Night chapter forty
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: two really quick. Sorry, I know this is a bit
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: of a divergent at the end of a very long recording.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: That's an important question to answer, though.
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: Should we play the Jeopardy music?
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 2: Oh, someone aside just posted a quote. Oh, it isn't
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: a name character who kills him, but rather one of
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 2: the blood knives carrying out the attack, who ambushes and
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: kills the messenger before he can deliver Gwain's reply. I
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 2: guess that makes sense. Maybe maybe the blood knife spots
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 2: a blood knife on a message Tray and is like, well,
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: that can't be good for me.
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 1: It might have worked. I was anticipating the black Aja
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: or maybe a gray man. I sent a warning the
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: messenger has been found dead as well. She item you
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: did the right thing tonight. But it still has me worried.
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, they did their best, but Gwen still survived.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: It's true, and it's implied that they because the tower
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: guards were all killed by the assassins. Right, and it's
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: implied that since she says your messenger was found dead
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: as well, it's implied they were killed in the same way. Sure,
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: so you can imply killed by the blood knives. Works
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 1: for me, But I think that brings us to the
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: end of the chapter. Right, Is there anything else?
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 2: No?
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 3: No, that was.
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: How did I not have one more note?
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 4: I'm tired of going I'm over it, editing Alradia back
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 4: again to say that I finally remembered that My last
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 4: note for this chapter was that the bed incident that
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 4: was edited out of an earlier Elaine chapter was referenced
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 4: here as a bed, not a litter. So ha, that's
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 4: a second instance of them fumbling that entirely unexplained and
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 4: unjustified alteration.
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 1: But yeah, this is we essentially got an information dump
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: about the blood Dives, except we knew all the information
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: already because we were told all the Blood Didives were.
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: So now Gollin knows and he has to get that
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 1: information back to Agwayin.
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: Well, no, we didn't know a lot of this stuff
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 2: about the blood Knives, right, Like we didn't know like
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: the mechanics of how long the rings worked and stuff.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 2: We knew they were assassins. We knew they were assassins.
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: No, they knew they were assassins, and we knew they
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: didn't survive the assassination attempt. Yes, so I guess this
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: is a good, good expedition exposition Bell.
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was almost sufferable, but because it was Gowen,
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: it was still insufferable.
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but I think with that one of our
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: longer recordings at two and a half hours, should come
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: to a conclusion that was.
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: A lot of tangents.
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of tangents and a lot of pages.
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining us on that journey,
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: the long one that it was. But yeah, I got
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 1: way more out of it. I got way more out
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 1: of the recording than I got out of the chapters,
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: if that makes sense.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: It's funny when that happens, like there's nothing here, but
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: like we had so many like tangents that like they
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 2: weren't all bad tangents, Like this is still going to
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 2: be a long episode. Even after I cut out all
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 2: the bad tangents, It's still going to be a lot
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 2: of really interesting things that we did find to pick
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: out of it. Not the good writing per se, but
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: there was lots of things that were interesting to.
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 1: Talk about a pursuit.
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, with that, let us say good night to everyone
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 2: who was sane. You next week.
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: See you next time.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 5: Bye.
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to The Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: Please rate and review us on your podcast app, and
• 1:58:42
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• 1:58:46
  Speaker 2: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:58:49
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• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: at Foxendravenmedia dot com.