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The Thing That Scares You Most: WWE Pro Wrestler AJ Mendez on Finding Your Superpower · Mind Over Mountain

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Mind Over Mountain with me, Cheryl Strayed. This week,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: my guest is AJ Mendez, a legendary WWE wrestler whose
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: ring name.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Is AJ Lee.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: AJ and I talk about her glorious trailblazing career, her
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: 10-year hiatus in which she wrote a book, among many
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: other things, and about her recent comeback last year. We
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: also talk about her work as a mental health advocate
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and diving in with vulnerability. Let's listen to our conversation.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: AJ Mendez, welcome to Mind Over Mountain.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Well, we have so much
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: to talk about.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of, my head is spinning with
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: all the things. Of course, your trailblazing legendary career as
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: AJ Lee in the WWE, your decision to leave like
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: 10 plus years ago, your decision to come back recently.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And of course, in between, you're amazing writing career and
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: your work as a mental health advocate. So we're going
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: to cover all that ground, but I want to go
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: back and start at the beginning. How did you become
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a wrestler? How did you find your way to this sport?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, gosh. I fell in love with wrestling thanks to
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: my brother.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Who I desperately wanted to be my best friend, and
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: he wanted.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Nothing to do with me growing up. Like all older brothers. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Like I'd try to get him to play video games
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: with me, and he was like, you know, those were
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: sort of the only times we would like, you know,
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: bond was if he'd let me play a video game
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: with him or if he'd let me like sit down
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: and watch wrestling with him.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: And so I fell in love with it through that.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: And how old were you at this time when you first...
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: watched your first wrestling matches a really little pitch probably really.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Really little there was like a a gap in between
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: it was probably around like the bret hart years i
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: must have been gosh i don't know five or six
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: and then came back to it um when i was
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: around maybe 12 11 12 and that was um sort
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: of like after the attitude error so it started to
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: um it went from like really really raunchy and then
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: kind of started to change and then i i jumped on.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Board Okay, so how old were you at that point?
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: There is a huge difference, obviously, between watching it and
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: being like, you know, this is my thing.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I want to be a wrestler. Tell us about that. Oh, man.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: I remember just really falling in love with the story
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: aspect of it. And the way I grew up, it
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: was kind of rough and to kind of escape into.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: fantastical worlds.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: When we were playing video games or when I was
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: reading comic books or watching wrestling, that was my only piece.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: And wrestling was real people doing it. So I was like, oh, the.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Things that I play in the video games and the
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: stuff that I'm reading, they're real people who are putting
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: on spandex and fighting bad guys. And it just felt
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: like the real life version of being a superhero. And
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: I vividly remember being 12 or 13 and like telling
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: my parents, I'm going to be a pro wrestler.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Like, okay. But I just knew it. Like, I just
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: knew that was, I needed to be a superhero. Yeah.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: And, you know, that, I mean, I think that that is,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: a feeling that a lot of storytellers have, you know,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: some version of that.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: I'm a writer.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I want to be a storyteller. But
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: of course, in wrestling, that's not the only part of
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the story. You know, you've also, it's an athletic experience.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: You've got to put your body on the line. When
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: did you start realizing, when did you start training and
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: actually getting in there and wrestling and start to realize
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: that this is something physically you could do and not
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: just as somebody who is interested in being a superhero?
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: Well, that was like the kind of like rough, like
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: awakening was I found a... I went to film school
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: because I loved the idea of becoming a writer and
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: writing like film and TV.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: And so I went to film school for that. I
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: couldn't afford it.
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  Speaker 3: And so to me, that was like the sign to
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: like chase this other wild dream and found a wrestling school.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: And immediately, like my first week at wrestling school, I
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: got pneumonia because... My body was, I had zero muscle
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: on me. I was vegetarian for like 13 years. I
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: just like very underfed, underweight. And, um, my body was like,
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  Speaker 3: you can't do this. You are not strong enough for this.
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: Like you, this is going to kill you. Um, so really,
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: really got hurt.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: And you're also, you're five too, right? So it's, it's,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: you were in no way large bodied or like, yeah,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: she looks like a wrestler. It was really bad. I
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: think it was like 96 pounds, like something really unhealthy. And, um,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: It really almost killed me. And I had to kind
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: of go, okay, do I keep trying or do I
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: just like give up here? And of course I was
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: going to glutton for punishment.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: Of course I'm going to keep going and kept going,
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: broke my foot, took a break, went back, got my
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: first concussion, went back.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Like I just, nothing really happened. could deter me. And
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: what did keep going mean for you?
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: So you obviously you're in there, you're wrestling and you're
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: in the wrestling school, but you had to build that muscle.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: You couldn't stay at 96 pounds. Did you like really
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: dedicate yourself to a workout routine? Did you have a
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: coach who was really bringing you along or was this
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: really something you were on your own doing?
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very much on my own.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: I got my first like full-time job to be able
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: to pay for wrestling school.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: And there was.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Like, really.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: What was your job? I was a secretary. A secretary.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: A secretary slash wrestler. I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: Like, a calling card company. And then I went to
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: be a secretary at a spa. And it was just
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: a lot of, like, you know, answering phones and ordering stuff.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Like, customer service. Right. And I just, like, there was no.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about like putting muscle on or
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: like training or like.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: All I was training was in the ring. So it
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: took me a really.
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: Long time to understand how to put muscle on. Like
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: I was already probably signed with the WWE by the
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: time I was like, okay, I should lift weights.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Really? Yeah, it took me a minute.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: So... at this point when you're in wrestling school and
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: you're first entering, um, you know, you're first like actually
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: doing some things, you know, in front of others, you're
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: in the indie circuit, right? Can you describe to, you know,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: to my listeners who are not really familiar with the
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: way people come up and, and finally get into the WWE,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: can you tell me, uh, your journey in the early days?
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Well, especially back then, um, it was kind of a
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: place where people would be scouted. And so like mostly
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: it was like models or athletes would sort of be
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: scouted for their potential and then trained. Whereas I was
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: in the indies and the indie circuit was not like
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: where they would pick people from. It had maybe been
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: like 10 years since they had hired like an indie
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: girl wrestler. And that world is very much like super,
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: super minor.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Leagues, like way below minor leagues.
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: It's like VFW halls and bingo halls and high school
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: gyms and There's like no safety regulations and I was
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: getting paid in like food sometimes.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Or next to nothing if it was money. Here's 20 bucks, right?
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I did like three or four matches in one night
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  Speaker 3: for $ 20. And I was like, I'm loaded. Like I
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: thought I was so rich. But I would save all
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: of that money and I just kept sort of scrolling
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  Speaker 3: it away so I could pay to.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: Try out for WWE one year. And in 2011... You
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: made it in. You joined the roster. What is it?
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: What did they see in you? And how did you
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: do that? How did you make that transition?
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: So there was like this program that you could pay
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: and try out. And I saved my money for like
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: two years. I missed the first one because I couldn't
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: save enough. I was able to do the second year
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: they did it. And it was maybe like 400 people
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: and like a handful of women. It was mostly guys there.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: And for three days, they would just watch you sort
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: of do wrestling drills and do a thing called cutting
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: a promo. And there was one particular day that was
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: supposed to be the promo day, and that was coming
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: later in the week. And first day, they pulled me
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: out of the ring and they said, cut a promo.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: I was like, I didn't prepare anything. It was like
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: freaking out. Um, and then I just went into like
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: a character that like, I think I had just had
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: been in me for so long and cut a promo.
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  Speaker 2: And, you know, I was told that was like the
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: moment they were like, okay, well, we'll give her a chance.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: They're like her. And you, at that point, were you saying...
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I'm AJ Lee. You had created this character. Not yet. Okay.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: It was Miss April. Is that right? It was still
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Miss April. Miss April. Okay.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: And here again, you know, I think that this is
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: such a... My first memory of watching WWE matches as
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: a child, I was kind of traumatized by it. So
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I was like, are these... is this real? Like, you know,
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: they were being so mean to each other and pulling
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: each other's hair and saying, you know, terrible things about
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: each other and seeming to actually be in personal fights.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: And I, it took me a little while to realize like, okay,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: this is a character. So what was that like for
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: you to, you know, cut that promo or to step
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: into this world where you were both bringing yourself and also,
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: you know, creating something new?
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, The great part about wrestling is that there
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: is always this like blurred line between the.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Real person and this character.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: And I think it's really good that there's like a
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: separation because it keeps you really healthy and safe and protected.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: But the character, it can be so freeing. It can
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: be everything you want to be. or like how confident
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: as you wish you could be, but you're not.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: You can fake it. Right.
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: You can be extra mean if you need to be
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: a bad guy.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: And you're too afraid to do that yourself. Yeah.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: So in that first promo that got you essentially invited
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: into the WWE, you weren't AJ Lee yet, but what
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: did you put out there? And how did that develop
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: over time?
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, I was such a dick. I went into a
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: bad guy character instantly. I don't know why. I was
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: just like, I think.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: I'm not like a, I knew my exterior looked like
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: a sweet little, you know, girl. So I wanted to
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: sort of play against that type. And I went into
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: this like really dicky character and that sort of like
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: spice stayed with my character for my entire career.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: She was born in that moment. So I went full heel.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Full heel, right.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: It's called a heel when you're like the villain in
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the scene. And yet, people fell in love with you,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: didn't they?
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Thank God, eventually, yes.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: I think, you know, I came into a landscape in
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: which every character was very aspirational and it was just
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: the right temperature in the room for people to want
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: something that felt relatable and felt like, oh, I could
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: be on screen. If she can make it, I can
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: do it. And I think that was the culture was
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: like trying to people really connected to the mission statement
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: of like trying to accept.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Your flaws and your.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: Weirdo parts and like all these things that you feel
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: insecure about. I was kind of putting them out there
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: as like, no, this is the character's strengths. And so
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: I think that just helped a lot of people feel
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: seen and less alone. And that was like lightning in
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: a bottle.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: And specifically as a woman, right?
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Because when you were coming up, women were really very
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: much kind of not central to what was happening in
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the WWE. There were these sideline characters and very often
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: confined to very limited roles. And you were a trailblazer.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: I'm going to guess you would agree in terms of
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: expanding that idea of what women could do in wrestling.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: I think, I mean, I credit the fans because... you know,
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: we have like these, these writers on the show, but
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: they wouldn't have kind of put in this opportunity for
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: my character if they didn't realize the fans were really
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: like supporting this character and like would show up and
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: would get.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: So excited and I'd get higher ratings.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: And they were just like really into this little, like
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: any two, 10 seconds I had on screen, like they
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: were eating it up. And so the writer's I appreciate
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: that they listened and started to give.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And the people really kind of forced their hand.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I always imagined, you know, because I know
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: you did from the beginning, you were like, I'm kind
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: of an outsider. I'm the sort of woman who's not
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: going to be in the box that you've, you know,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: essentially like made for women.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: And I thought that was really you kind of pushing
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: that agenda or that vision with the writers.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: But it's interesting to hear that it was the fans.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: It was them observing their response.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I'm imagining, too, it also was really affirming and validating
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: to you, which allowed you to expand that sense of
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: your outsider-ness.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: Because I really always felt like, okay, I've just got
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: to try something different because I'm not going to be...
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to compare to the other women. Like
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: they can do what they do so amazingly.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I can't compete. So I've just got to do what
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: And that's be a little weirdo and be a nerd
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: and a tomboy and just see if that connects to people.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: And they did like it. And that was so encouraging
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: to see that there was a spot for that. And
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: then I was grateful the writers like, okay, let's open
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: this door. Yeah, those all the world, like it was
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: a perfect storm.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: And of course, I'm curious about like, I mean, it's
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: an old trope of, you know, essentially the patriarchy where
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, this woman is the good woman because
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: she's not like all the other women.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: You know, so I don't want to set up that.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: dichotomy here.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: You were outsider and different from a lot of the
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: other women, but how, what was that like with you
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: in your relationships with the other women who were in
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: wrestling at that time where, you know, you, it was
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: such a time of transition. Were you a close, did
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: you have a sisterhood with these women or what was
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: the dynamic?
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: It was hard because, you know, it was a time when,
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: and I say this all bunch where like women got
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: like this one crumb to fight over. And, you know,
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: this system is in place that it's like, be distracted
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: fighting over this one crumb.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Why we all, like all the men get this feast.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: And so it's like, it's really an unfair, you know,
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: position to be in. And I do realize I was
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: so lucky to get the most of the crumb and
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: make the most of it.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: So it was harder back then.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: What was really cool this time around, coming back 10
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: years later, was to see Because the women, you know,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: starting with me and then so many women just pushing
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: that envelope forward and forward and forcing the business to evolve.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: There are more spots and there is a feast for women.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: And in that, you can feel calm and there now
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: can be a sisterhood. And that was like the most
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: beautiful thing. to experience now.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: I bet. And I'm going to imagine, I mean, we're
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: going to get to your comeback in a bit, but
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Those 10 years in between when you left at 20,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: you left WWE at 28 and then decided last year
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: to come back is like, not only did women advance,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: you know, but they also advanced in part because of you.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Like I'm imagining that some of the women you're working
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: with now are saying things like, okay, AJ, it was
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: you who inspired me when I was that child watching
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: this and.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Thinking, maybe I could be this. What does that feel like?
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, has that happened? And what does it feel like? Yeah. Yeah.
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: They're, um, they're so egoless and beautiful and kind and
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: generous that like, they've all given me my flowers, like
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: to my face, which is like such a It's so
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: crazy to get your flowers while you're still alive, quite honestly.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Normally, we just don't, you know, appreciate people until
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: they're gone.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: And so to sort of have this experience of women
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: giving me credit and then also seeing girls who have, like,
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: literally come to my autograph signings and then now, like,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: they are just, like, blowing me out of the water.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Like, amazing.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: And, like, actually professional wrestlers, like, and we're in the.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Same locker room. Like, that is... I mean, I couldn't
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: ask for anything more.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: Like that's all I wanted was even for there to
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: be like one more woman who got a shot. And
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: then to see like it evolved to be so many.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Like it was beyond my wildest dreams.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that thing that you're just naming
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: to me is the highest marker of achievement. You know,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: it's not the awards you won or the championships or
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: whatever that you won.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Those things are fun.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: But if somebody can say to you, I'm here in
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: part because of you, because of the model you were
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: to me or the ways that you made me braver
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: or stronger, that's just incredibly powerful.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: So I want to talk to you.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: There's obviously this craft of the characters, and we're going
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: to get into your writing career, but I'm really curious
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: about that craft of, again, the athletic piece of wrestling,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: which I think is such a fascinating marriage and professional
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: wrestling of this, like really hard stuff that, that you
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: have to put the body through. And so in your first,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: you know, your first run at the WWE, how did
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: you develop as an athlete over that time? Like what, what,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: what do you think were your high, you know, like
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: your highest achievements in And of course, your lowest moments.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: I know you got injured. You know, injury is part
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: of the game. Yeah. I mean, as an athlete, I
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: was so.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Just uneducated and like in how to gain muscle and
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: how to, you know, take care of myself and.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Learn that along the way, which is insane now that
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I look back at it.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: But kind of learned like how to work out five
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: days a week and how to like put muscle on
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: and be comfortable gaining weight so I could gain muscle
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: and like be strong and along that way really found
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: so much beauty and strength and that is like muscle
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: is like my ideal beauty now like that is everything
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: um and so that was really cool to see how
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: far I could test my body coming from someone who
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: was like such a sick kid and was such a
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: weak kid and then to go into you know using
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: my body as protection and as like my my weapon
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: um was really cool. And that was, I mean, highest high,
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I think, was just making a place for someone like me.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: I didn't, I didn't see people like me on television
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: growing up and to create that, like I had to
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: just put myself there. That's, that felt like my highest achievement.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: And I mean, lowest low is probably, you know, maybe
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: around my last year, it started to be I started
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: to get hurt a lot and so much inner work
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: I hadn't done. And I'm a kid who literally came
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: off the street and went on TV. So there's a
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: lot I didn't deal with emotionally. And it was just
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: kind of a perfect storm of a lot of bad
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: stuff happening in one year. And once the outside of
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: my body, like once my body was physically hurt, I
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: had to start paying attention to the inner hurt. And
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: I couldn't ignore it anymore. It was just everything all
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: at once. And so that was the lowest moment. It
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: looked like the highest moment. I was champion and I
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: had everything in the world, but I was just so
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: falling apart. I needed to make sure I was still
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: here to enjoy everything.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: And you made that choice. When you left, I think
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: that's so interesting. And I think a lot more people
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: go through this moment you described than we ever know.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: that from the outside they look like the champion, you know,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: either metaphorically or literally, and inside they're.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Faltering, they're struggling.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: When you decided to leave at 28, what did you
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: do next? Did you go and turn to tending to
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: your psyche and your body?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: I did, almost like instantly.
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: It was a different time culturally also where I was
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: very afraid to tell people that I was diagnosed with
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: bipolar disorder and I just, it wasn't like a mental
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: health days off kind of, you know.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I know we are talking, I mean, what's so interesting
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: as it's, it's pretty, you know, recent history and yet
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: the world has changed profoundly when it comes to mental health,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: mental health issues.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: It was very, I felt a shame and fear and
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: like kind of coming out as that. And so I
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: had this weird tendency anytime anything really scares me, like
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, I have to do that then. Like
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: the reason it's scaring me, I have to jump in.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: It means talk about it or write about it. So
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: when were you diagnosed with bipolar disorder?
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, before I ever started wrestling, it was maybe
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: around when I was, had just started, maybe like 19
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: years old. So I'd kind of gone through my whole
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: career not telling anyone and dealing with these ups and
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: downs privately and quietly. And like, I had like, I would,
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: you know, be on the road with some girls and
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: they would be like, it's so weird that she's just
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: staying in the car while we go in the gym.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Like, why is she, why is she crying in a
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: bathroom stall?
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: You know, it would be these really weird moments that
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: I couldn't explain to anybody.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I could. And that's on me.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: That's just me being ashamed. And I wouldn't talk about it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Like you say, you had reason to, because that wasn't
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: really acceptable.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: To talk to others about that. Did you, but did
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: you know during that time, I mean, it sounds like
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: you had some awareness, even if you couldn't bring it
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: into the world or into your relationships with others, you
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: had awareness of how to take care of yourself?
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: In, in sort of a really basic like survival way,
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: because growing up the way I grew up, like there
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: was no, like our, like we didn't have the insurance
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: to be able to go get help.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: You grew up in poverty.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: And there's just, it's impossible to get the proper treatment,
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: to go to therapy. It's so, there's so many barriers
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: to treatment. So I just knew like the survival, how
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: do I get by? Like, and just fake it till
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: I make it. And so when I finally had these
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: resources and I had the time and I kind of
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: took myself off of television, I.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Put myself through the ringer and went through F like everything.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: All kinds of therapy. I dated so many different therapists.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: You have to try out so.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Many different therapists. It's like dating. You don't know who's
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: going to fit you. I tried so many different treatments
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: to just see what.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Worked for me, what was the right cocktail for me,
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: and realized I needed to tell the world what I
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: was going through. And so they would feel less alone
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: because that was always my mission statement, whether it was
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: feeling less alone because you're a weird kid or because
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: you're a poor kid or because you're dealing with your
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: mental health.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: I wanted to tell my story. And that's when I
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: wrote the book. Yeah. Crazy is my superpower.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Your memoir that really blew that whole story wide open.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: No more hiding in the car, crying. And, you know,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: first of all, I just want to say that that's
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: a great title.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: And thank you. Tell me, you know, how is it
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: that crazy? is your superpower. What do you mean by
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: that phrase?
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Well, for so long, I saw it as this like
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: thing I needed to hide and be ashamed of. And
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: what I didn't realize was that when I was a
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: kid living on the street, when I was living in
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: a motel, when I was living in a car, my
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: brain would take me to like magical lands.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: And it was probably disassociation.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: But in my head, because I had these like wonderful,
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: fantastical worlds to kind of play with, like it was
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: this safety. And so my like crazy protected me and
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: it made me feel like I could believe in the impossible,
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: like I could get out of the street.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: It made me feel like I could do anything, like
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: I could be a superhero.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: It just gave me this like delusional confidence, I say,
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: where I just thought anything in the world was possible.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: And I really credit that to this like, sort of
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: steel hearted, like ballsiness that being bipolar gives you.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: And that kind of emotional intensity too, I'm imagining that,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: that you're like, you know, sometimes gloriously and sometimes painfully
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: awake and aware to your feelings and the world around
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: you and the feelings of other people. And, you know,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: it's a lot to manage, but it also is a very,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: it brings a lot of energy, right? Yeah, that's a
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: really wonderful way to put it. I haven't heard anyone
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: say it like that.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Painfully aware. That's very true. Painfully and gloriously aware.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I can connect to people.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I'm very good at knowing like what an audience wants
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: because I have like my.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: Like my nerves are exposed all the time. Like I
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: know what people are feeling all the time. I can
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: like drink in that energy. And so that helps me
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: be a performer and work a crowd. And it helped
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: me just know what people wanted to see on screen.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: But I think a lot of the fans also saw
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: like the manic parts of me and like the pieces
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: of me before I even was telling them, I think
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: they connected to it. Because once I came out as bipolar,
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: so many fans were like, well, me too. Like, or
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I struggle with my mental health. And then that became
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: the most probably profound thing I've ever done with my
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: career is have these people be able to share their
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: diagnosis or go get a diagnosis because I shared mine.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And feel validated and affirmed by you. I mean, I
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: always say vulnerability is my superpower. And I know you
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: did that. I write memoir as well. You wrote a
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: memoir and it is the opposite really of what you
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: described when you were talking about being that character, you know, A.J.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: Lee.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: And like, you know, you get to, you bring yourself
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: to it profoundly, but also you get, you're in some
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: ways obscured by it. And when it came time to write,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: the job of the memoirist is to tell that very
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: vulnerable truth. I'm curious about what that felt like to you,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: you know, on, you know, as you're writing those difficult
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: words that you had to write, those, those words that
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: you had finished, those things you had been ashamed about before.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: And now you're saying, look, world, read this book. What
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: did it feel like to do that and to have
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: those first readers respond?
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: It was the scariest moment of my life.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: It was, I got like my first gray hair.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: I remember like stuck out of my head. I was like,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: oh my God, people are going to know. It was terrifying.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: They're going to know. It was really, really terrifying.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: And because not only do I talk about like my diagnosis,
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: but I talk about And I don't talk about all
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: of them because I was like, okay, let's pace this out.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: But I talked about my first suicide attempt.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: And that was maybe the hardest thing I had to
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: ever write. And there's so many more stories to tell
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: that I've gotten to do over interviews over.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: The past decade. But it was such a.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: I carried so much shame about it. And I didn't
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: realize that was... the most important story to put in
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: the book. The only story that I really needed to
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: get out there. Because there is a life after. It
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: does get better as cheesy as that can sound sometimes.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Surviving those moments makes you realize how much the fight
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: is worth it.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And telling the stories about it about those darkest hours
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: that we survived, I think in my own experience is
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: really also then the thing that sort of makes, like
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: it expands, you know, its necessity and growth beyond just
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: your own life. But like you've said, and like we've
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: both experienced is other people are validated. They say, thank you,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: me too. I thought I was the only one. And
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: That's like, that just gives me chills to this day.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: And so any listeners who are like thinking about writing
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: a memoir, it's like, you know, I think some writing
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: tips from me and AJ, right? It's like, write the thing.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: What I heard you say is like, this is the
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: story you didn't want to tell. And it was the
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: most important story in your.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Book, right?
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Because it's definitely the hardest one. And, you know, that's
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: what we come to art for. That's what we come
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: to books for. And I think it is the stuff
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: that ends up being life changing. I always know the right,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: the paragraph I want to X out is the one
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: that I need to keep in.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I love that. It's so true. The thing that scares
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: me the most, like it's a reason. It's like there's
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: an alarm bell for a reason.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: It needs to be out there.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: And I think it's, it, It needs to be out
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: there because it actually is connected to, you know, the
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: larger humanity. Like, you know, those stories that we hear
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: about struggle and loss and pain and suffering, you know,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: they're not just about us here and now.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: They're about us throughout all time.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: And that's why we can go read, like, the Greek
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: tragedies and be like, oh, yes, yeah, that's how it feels.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: You know, that's what pain is or suffering is.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: So you wrote the book and, you know, you then
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: spent a decade pretty happily, like, and successfully in the arts, right?
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Tell us, tell me a bit more about like where
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: your writing career took you and the intervening years between
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: your two turns.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: As AJ Lee.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: Well, I like, once I wrote the book and I started,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I became a mental health advocate and I started doing
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: keynote speeches and all across the country. And I felt
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: it was the first time I was like on a
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: stage in front of a crowd as me.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: And that was a little terrifying and.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: Overwhelming, but it was also slightly less scary than like
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: being on, you know, in front of 80,000 people or
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: being on television. Like it felt nice to be not
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: a character in a TV show or not looked at
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: as by as many people. And so I really felt
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: comfortable in like that creative path. And I started to
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: adapt the book with like different production companies and along
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: the way realized, oh, I can do that. Like no
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: one can tell my story better than I can. And
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: that's what I went to school for, for a solid
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: six months was, you know, film and television production.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: So I had a little bit of like.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: Knowledge and it scared me thinking like, okay, how can
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: I start my own production company and how can.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I keep writing?
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: But fiction and take these you know these experiences and
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: make them fictionalized um that was scary but I figured
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: it out and I found this wonderful writing partner in
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: actress Amy Garcia who very much had a similar journey
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: to me as in like we didn't see ourselves represented
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: on tv we had to put ourselves there and um
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: we were the first you know in sort of our
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: respective fields to kind of represent these like you know
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: Latinas and who could just be all American also in
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: a way And.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: So it was a really specific point of view.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: And we started, you know, developing the show, which led to,
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: I would enter writing competitions. And I, you know, won
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: this competition on the blacklist and started to get representation.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: And that led to us writing comic books. And that
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: led to us writing our first feature. It's like action
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: movie that was on Netflix. Yeah, and then we were
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: in our first animated movie. What's your action movie on
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Netflix called? So everyone can rush out and see it.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: It's called Blade of the 47 Ronin. And it's like,
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: that was one of those things where it's like just dive.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Into the deep end. And they had a writer and
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: we thought it was like kind of interesting. We're like, well,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: can we pitch this?
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: And like literally the night before, like the last day
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: of like hearing pitches, we pitched this like really out there.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Like what if it's all women and female samurais?
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: And like got the job.
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: Just like being naive and being like, let's just dive in.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Really worked and we got the job. And then, you know,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: we broke up. Diving in sounds like, you know, a
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: theme to your life, AJ. I've noticed. Diving in with
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: verve and vigor. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's how
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: you get to do stuff.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, even like with writing the comic books, like
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: this offer came to us and we were just like,
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: do we know how.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: To write this? We'll figure it out. Yes.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: Like we just, you know, really enjoy like learning on
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: the job and like, why not us?
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Why can't we, you know, do that? We have so
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: much experience.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: We have, we're coming in with like so many skills
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: that are like transferable skills.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: So why can't we do that in all fields?
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: And then last year, we produced our first short film
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: that got into Tribeca.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: And we're making it a feature now. So it's just
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: been like... It's been really, really cool.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: And so you've had this really.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: successful career in the arts and that that's not easy
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: you know I mean I'm a writer myself I know
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: and all the writers out there listening you know it's
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: this is a you know we call it struggling artists
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: for a reason emphasis on the struggling right for most
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: people and so then why why why did you two
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: question two part question one during these years did you
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: keep your hand in the professional wrestling at all? Or
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: was it really just behind you?
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: And why did you come back?
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: Oh man, I'm like, to me, it felt like a relationship.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: And like, if I'm not like the type of person
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: that's like going to like, like stalk my ex on
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: social media, like I just like, that's when it felt
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: like I never watched any wrestling and I stood far
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: away from it. Yeah, I think a piece of me
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: was like, But so much of my heart was in
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: and I fell so much in love with it. And
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: there was a lot of like trauma also that happened
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: back then. It wasn't a very healthy place. And so
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: a little bit of it was like I had a
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: broken heart.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: And, you know, didn't kind.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: Of want to go there or think about it. And
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: then my husband went back to wrestling.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a wrestler. Yeah.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: And I watched a show that he did. And the
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: women were so amazing. And I was like, oh, what
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: is this? This is really cool. And then and then
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: he got hurt on that show.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, I'm never fucking watching again.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Like I thought.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: It was like bad juju. Like I was like, oh, no,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't have. Like you cursed him by watching?
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I was like, why would I do that? So I
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: got like really weird about it then. And I didn't
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: want to watch. And then. But wait, I want to.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: What did you see in the women when you were?
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, what difference did you see? Gosh, I mean.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: It used to be like.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: My character was so different just simply by being like
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: an ordinary girl.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Like that was what like was made such a difference.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: And then to see that now there were so many
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: women who were different in their own ways. Like there
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: was a different type for any person in the world
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: to relate to. And I just looked at it and
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: I thought like of myself as a kid. And it's like,
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: there were so many kids who would have just killed
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: to see a woman like that on TV. Or like,
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: there was probably 20 different women where I was like, oh,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: that would have been my favorite.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: She would have been my favorite. She would have been
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: my favorite. I would have had a poster.
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: Like, it really started to speak to the inner child
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: in me of like, these people would have been really
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: helpful to me to look up to growing up.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Right. And they represented like the full range of women
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: that you know in real life instead of like these just,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: you know. extremely rare and narrow visions of women.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like all different kinds of beauty was
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: finally represented and celebrated. And that was like, that's the
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: world they want to live in. Like, you know, if
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: you are traditionally beautiful, good for you. That is, like, gorgeous. Everyone,
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: you know, like, that's great. But not everyone is that.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean they're any less beautiful. So to
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: see that world where like beauty and strength was combined
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: and celebrated and like the fans were into it and
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: like I'd been just like drooled all over them. Like
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: to me, it was like, this is the dream come true.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: And that's, did you think, okay, sign me up again?
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Put me back on?
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: No. no I always use like the analogy um I
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: went to this like really poor high school and like
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: and we didn't even have like a field for sports
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: like we had to go borrow other schools fields for
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: like soccer games and um and then I graduated and
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: a year later they finally got a field like some
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: somebody like donated money and they could build their own
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: field and I always thought like I never was like
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: oh I'm gonna go be a fifth year senior and
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: like Enjoy this feel.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Look at that. Oh, my time has passed.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: And I hope these kids enjoy this extra wonderful thing
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: that they have. That's kind of how I always thought
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: about wrestling was like, oh, well, like I didn't get it,
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: but I'm so happy I could do anything in the
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: fight for you to get that one day.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: Just did not think of it in terms of me
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: at all. And and then they called.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: They called. Yes. Why did they call you? Yeah.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: Um, I guess the story was there. Very like business,
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: my business sense as there was like a new TV
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: show that they were needed to promote like a new
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: relationship with ESPN. I've always been a character that has
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: delivered very high ratings and very high merchandise sales.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: You're a star.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you. But there's a reliability of this character. And
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: God bless my fans.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: Like they, in any business I've gone to, they've followed
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: me and kind of supported me consistently. And that's never wavered.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: And so I think they knew I would bring that
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: support to this like event that needed more eyeballs. Um,
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: and the story was there.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: And so when they approached you, was that an immediate
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: yes for you or did you, did you reflect and
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: think for a while?
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: I took a second. I like, I took a, oh,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I took a minute. I, um.
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: A minute.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: You were like, ah, I love everything. Yep.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I said, yeah, it wasn't for me at first. I, um,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: just felt like I didn't, I had such a wonderful
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: career and I didn't want to mess with that. And yeah,
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: I just didn't think like they needed me. And I,
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: it was kind of a no for a while. And,
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: and I do remember like I had had dental surgery
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: and like, got a call and I was like, how
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: high am I?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Like, Connie, it's been 10 years. Who's calling me?
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: It was all a hallucination brought on by like, whatever
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: they gave you after you had a tooth pulled, right?
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: So it was, it was just like a weirdly bizarre time,
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: like where I was like, I don't, am I even,
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: but you know, the more I talked to them, I really,
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: I think the biggest hesitation on my part was my
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: mental health was so bad that last year.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I was really afraid of like.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: Backsliding because I'd done 10 years of work to get
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: myself really healthy and, and just be so happy in life. And,
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: but I think coming from the place of, I don't, like,
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: I don't, I'm not, I don't have like a list
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: of things to check off and I wasn't like desperate
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: for it. And like, it was coming from a place of,
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: I am so complete and whole and happy, never having,
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: never getting to do that again. It was actually the
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: perfect headspace to go in and feel healthy and feel safe. Um,
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: And they very much like told me my mental health
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: was going to be a priority.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: So they had changed too. I mean, you changed and
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: they changed. So you could step back in. And when
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: you did step back in, I watched, I went on
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: YouTube and watched this moment where there you are, AJ
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: Lee in the spotlight again.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: And I was so moved. Just the fans went crazy.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: The sound, whatever. What did that feel like to you
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: when you heard that? What was it like?
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, I could see what it was like outside.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: What was it like inside of yourself?
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, man. It felt like.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: when you have like that dream that like you're back
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: in school and you don't know like what the like the.
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: Tests are and you're just like oh well like it
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: didn't feel and you're not wearing any clothes and yeah
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: it felt like like surreal and not like that was
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: it was so bizarre but it was so encouraging to
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: get that energy back and there's this really crazy thing
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: that happens when a crowd is is intense where.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: You can feel like a warmth Like it is literally
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: like it's like electricity on you and like fire on
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: your skin.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: And that was amazing. And and then I think like the.
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: Second the first time I had a microphone, which is
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: like the second my second appearance, the crowd did a
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: therapy chant.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: And like they chanted for therapy. And I was just like, well,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: that's my work here is done. Oh, that is so beautiful.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, those worlds collide. The mental health advocacy,
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the inner experience you've had as a human and your
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: work as AJ Lee.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: That's beautiful. So you have been.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: you know, a source of therapy to a lot of people,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: which brings me to a very nice transition moment.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Dear AJ.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: I have this other gig, this side gig as Dear
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Sugar giving advice. And I use this podcast to get
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: amazing people to help me answer some letters, some letters
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: from listeners.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Ooh, okay. I have a letter for you. Can I
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: read it to you? Yes, please.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Dear Sugar, I'm a 26-year-old woman and I have a
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: great life in a lot of ways. Great job, amazing friends,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: an apartment that I love. Despite that, I'm struggling extremely
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: right now. The man that I love dearly and was
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: building a future with left me recently. It isn't the
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: first time that I've been dumped. In fact, it has
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: happened to me quite often. My family is a mess
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: and I've always wanted to create my own, but I
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: can't seem to do that. I love hard and I
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: feel things extremely intensely. The circumstances around my recent breakup
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: are complex, but it's also like my other breakups. It's
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: always the same story. Something happens that I think we
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: can work through, but the other person thinks we can't
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: and leaves. When I decide to love someone, I'm willing
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: to do a lot to make it work, but that
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: commitment is reciprocated, so I end up feeling expendable to
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: the people I love so hard. In this case, he
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: cited incompatibility due to different communication styles. This breakup was
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: especially hard, because the problem we had seemed so fixable,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: even though the issue came up a couple of times.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: The love I felt for him seemed very mutual, but
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: I guess it wasn't. I know I'm young and I
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: need to learn to be okay by myself. I need
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: to accept the idea that I might not ever have
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: a long, happy relationship. I feel so imperfect sometimes with
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: my emotional intensity, my insecurities, and my communication style. I
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: feel incompetent, heartbroken, and doomed, I'm in therapy and on antidepressants,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: but I would love your advice on how to be
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: okay and how to move forward when I'm feeling like this.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Thank you. Signed, Doomed. Wow. Oh my gosh. My arm
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: breaks for her. I know. That's it. So Doomed, before
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: we give.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: You advice, what we want to say is we love
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: you and you're going to be okay and you're not
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: doomed and we're folding you in our arms right now
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: over over.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: The airwaves of the podcast. Definitely. Yeah.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, the few things jumped out at me.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Let's hear them.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: Her saying, my family's a mess and willing to do
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: anything to make it work. Those are go hand in hand.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if she realizes that. It kind
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: of feels like, and then when she's talking about like
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: emotional intensities, I feel like you take those three and
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: you have maybe she experienced like some instability in childhood.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: Maybe she had like adults she couldn't really rely on
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: that weren't giving her that safety or that like, like
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: unconditional love. And so she kind of always had to
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: like make it work or maybe she was the fixer
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: or she was like, you know, the parent.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she had to be okay in chaos.
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: And I'm so happy that she's in therapy because I
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: think that they'll get there if they haven't already. But
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: to me, like any, all the pieces that she's talking about,
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: this guy is like, forget, forget this guy.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Like this, not worth your time.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: It really feels, and I think a lot of people
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: can relate to that of like, there are things in.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: You, you've got to sort of heal first and feel whole.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: And then worry about relationships because no one is going
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: to be the parent you never had or the home
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: you never had or fix you and make you whole.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: You have to do that on your own.
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: And find that wholeness and stability by yourself and find
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: that love for yourself. Because she needs to love herself.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: I don't like the way she's talking about herself, calling
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: herself incompetent.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Like, no. Yeah. And doomed.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Like forever sort of caught in this pattern. But I mean,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: on the other side, what I love too, I mean,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: what's so hopeful about this letter is, Doomed, you are
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: doing some really good things. You're writing to us, you're
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: in therapy. And I think that it's so wise what
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: you just said, AJ. All those bells were ringing in
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: my mind too, because clearly this is somebody who didn't
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: have maybe the best foundation of unconditional love and a
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: sense of safety and security with that family of origin.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: And so, of course, you go into the world and
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: try to create something that's.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: The opposite of that.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: But very often, until you can learn some things, what
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: you do is you kind of replicate the family of
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: origin and the chaos of that. And, you know, I
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: think Doomed, you know, in addition to the very insightful
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: things AJ suggested you explore, more deeply, you know, those
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: wounds that you have from your past and how to,
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: how to heal them, um, inside yourself without looking for
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: the relationship to that for you is to really sort
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: of let go of this story that you're telling yourself
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: that like the problem is these other people who keep
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: dumping you, you know, um, we don't know if those,
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: who those people are and what they did good or
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: bad in their relationships, but we do know that you
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: have a pattern that you have identified that you are
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: loving so hard, giving it all you got and you're not,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: and that's not ultimately being reciprocated. And so whenever we
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: see a pattern, I don't know about you, AJ, I'm like, okay,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: like the only thing we can do is look at
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: ourselves and say like, how, how is it that I
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: participated in this kind of relationship dynamic that resulted again
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: in this thing. And that is the, you know, the
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: beautiful thing about doing something like therapy, where you get
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: to look deeply, not just at your past, but at
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: the patterns that you're carrying out in your present life.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: And so my advice to as much as possible, just
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, don't get all like squirrely
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: in your mind about like, this happened, then he said that,
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: and then, you know, we could have fixed it.
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: Let it go. Those relationships are over.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: The only one that is worth really deeply exploring and
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: healing and improving upon is the one with yourself.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: And you have the power to do that. I love that. Yeah.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard work, though. It is. It is.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: And, like, there's so many things that, like, we will
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: take as, like, especially because the world is, like, we'll
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: throw out the.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Like, oh, she's, like, such a.
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: crazy ex-girlfriend or like and it's these monikers that like
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: actually like they're like was somebody really insecure and they
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: wanted to feel more secure by making you feel crazy
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: or you know or do you have like emotional regulation
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: issues because you're dealing with like a PTSD or like
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: a hypervigilance like because you have like a harder maybe
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: family life it sounds like I would look into that
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: like maybe you're not emotionally intense maybe like you're having
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: an actual trigger um so I would explore that in
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: therapy and.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Give yourself a little bit more grace.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think in that grace space, it's kind
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: of interesting. I was thinking of wrestling as I was
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: thinking about this is there's, there's often a lot of
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: us will often do this when we think about romantic
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: relationships that didn't work out. Like there's, there's the kind
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: of hero villain dynamic.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Like, They were wrong. I was wrong. I'm too emotionally intense.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: They didn't work hard enough.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Whatever those narratives are, when really the more interesting thing
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: is all of the territory in between. So emotional intensity
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: can mean a lot of things. It can be somebody who....
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Feels bigly and deeply.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: And it's an absolutely beautiful, you know, has beautiful ways
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: of expressing that kind of intensity. It can also be
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: somebody with an anger management problem, you know, and somebody
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: who does need to learn how to express those big
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: emotions in ways that are more respectful of others or
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: more mindful of like the impact, you know. And so,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that's the journey we all
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: must take. Like we all are who we are. We
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: all have our struggles. And we're all doing the best
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: we can do. And we can all do better. Like
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: that's kind of like right there. I just gave you
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: my whole like psychological mission statement, you know? And like
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: the work you could do is not on somebody else.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: It's only on yourself. And so don't feel doomed about that,
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: dear doomed. You're 26. You're actually like doing exactly what
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: you should be doing at 26. And you're paying real
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: attention to your inner life, which will... very likely result
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: in someday finding that love that you seek.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to guess if I had to put a
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: hundred bucks on it, I would. What about you, AJ?
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: I think so.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Also, you're 26, like just date around and then like
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: worry about like the one when you're like in your thirties.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: Okay. Have fun. That's right. That's right. How old are you?
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: You're like, I'm 39.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: I feel like I'm 60 in the inside since I
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: was 10. Like I just have always been a little
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: bit of like a older soul.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: So I feel like I'm sort of catching up to
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: my age. You're finally, I love it.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: 60 on the inside. That is so cool. So the big,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, 40 is a big milestone.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: You're turning 40. It's your birthday is in March, right? So, okay.
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: So it's next year. It's on the horizon. I'm so
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: excited for it. Yeah, you know, that's so good to hear.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: I was the same way. You know, I'm 57.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: And when people, when I was turning both 40 and 50,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: they're like, oh, dear. And I'm like, are you kidding me?
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: Do you know how lucky I feel to be here?
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Do you know how grateful I am for the wisdom
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: that I've gained and the experiences I've had and the blessings? Like, really,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: age has brought me so many things. Powerful things. Like,
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: and some of them are the simplest things, like feeling
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: okay inside myself, you know, in the world.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: So what about you?
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: Like, how are you going to mark 40? And what
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: are you grateful for as you walk toward 40?
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I mean.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: I really, I think like every decade has like something
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: really awesome to it.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Like I really, I don't like when people are afraid
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: of older years and I don't like when older people
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: like shame the youngins.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: We don't want any age discrimination here. No, you have
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: an awesome time in every decade.
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: And I always felt like your 20s are like figuring
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: out who you are and your 30s are becoming that person.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: And then your 40s, I think, are like enjoying that
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: person and all the work that you've done. So I
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: feel like I'm on the cusp of like, okay, I've
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: put in a lot of work here.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: And then your 50s are like being the queen of
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: the world. Dude, that sounds fantastic. And then like, I
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I'll report back in a few years after I cross
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: the line of 60.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's just there's something really wonderful
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: to look forward to in every decade.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: And I don't know. I'm psyched about it. I just
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: my skin keeps getting better and I keep getting more confident.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: So bring it on. The skin is OK.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: This isn't a beauty and wellness podcast, but we do
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: want to know your skin regimen.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's internal out, you know, like it's
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: the glow. Genuinely. It is SPF. Oh, wear SPF in
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: your 20s. Let me just tell you that. Oh, that, yeah.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: No, that's real advice. I mean, I came up in
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: a generation, like, no, there was no such thing, you know?
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: So we would put baby oil on, you know, and
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: lie in the sun.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a mess. I mean, it's a mess.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: But I'm glad we got a little, you know, beauty
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: advice alongside all of your other wisdom, AJ.
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: It is such, it was really wonderful to talk to
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: you and I'm wishing you the best. I mean, I
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: guess last question, what, what is next in your wrestling career?
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Like what, what's happening in the, the, the near future
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: here for you? I mean, we'll see.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: Like I'm very, um, there was a piece of me
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: was like, oh, I just need to like come back
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: with this little time.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: And then when I did, I was like, oh, I'm, I'm,
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: I'm still kind of killing it.
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: Um, so So I'm confident in what I can bring,
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: but I feel like I'm also story driven. And like
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: if there's a story there, that's going to be the
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: thing that excites me. It feels like something new that
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: I haven't done and feels like breaking ground. I think
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: that's always what's interesting to me. And yeah, so we'll see.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to keep writing and working.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Out and staying ready.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: And let the story of life and wrestling unfold as
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: it does.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: That's the only choice we have. All right, AJ, thank
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: you so much for our chat. I loved every minute
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: If you'd like to write me a letter seeking advice
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: on the show, please send me an email at deardearsugar
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: at gmail.com. And don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: Happy trails, and I'll see you next week.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: Mind Over Mountain with Cheryl Strayed is an iHeart Women's
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Sports production produced by Brittany Brown and Rodney Brown of
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: Barbara Jean Productions. Supervising producer is Kaylin West at Realm.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Associate producer, Amaya Brathwaite. Our executive producers are Molly Barton,
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Jerry Carita, Grace Fuse, and Jessie Katz. Our theme song
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: is composed by Gramascope Music. Don't forget to rate, review,
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Happy trails, and
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.