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Guyana Where Adventure Meets Untamed Beauty · GowayPro Travel Tales

• 0:00
  Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaay and welcome to the Goaay Pro Travel Tale Podcast.
• 0:05
  Travel far and gravel often.
• 0:20
  Are you ready to embark on a truly epic adventure to an undiscovered corner of South America?
• 0:27
  Where some of the most spectacular natural attractions are unveiled within a beautifully diverse landscape.
• 0:38
  from the wetlands and savannas.
• 0:43
  to the ancient mountains, magnificent waterways and lush and rich in rainforests.
• 0:52
  was provided a vast playground for some of the most exotic and breathtaking creatures on the planet.
• 1:01
  including many of the world's giant species.
• 1:06
  This untouched land of mystery and wonder serves up an exclusive experience for travelers.
• 1:14
  So are you ready for a new awe-inspiring adventure?
• 1:18
  Welcome back to nature.
• 1:21
  Welcome to Diana.
• 1:25
  Hello everyone, welcome to the Go Way Pro Travel Tales podcast.
• 1:30
  I was just speaking to my two guests off air, which I'll introduce you to them both in a minute, about uh how the region we're gonna discuss today was once referred to, at least
• 1:41
  within Go Way, Latin America.
• 1:43
  uh We now refer to it as the Americas, so Canada, US, Central and South.
• 1:48
  But our two guests were referring to their country within...
• 1:51
  uh
• 1:52
  Latin America is no, they don't refer to it as Latin America anymore.
• 1:56
  They refer to it as South America.
• 1:58
  So I've now narrowed down our destination of today geographically into the lower continent of South America.
• 2:05
  And it's a, I would say, I've forgotten about, but.
• 2:11
  unknown destination for even probably some of the most hardiest travelers into that region of South America and that is the country of Guyana.
• 2:20
  Now there's some little facts and stats for those who may not know.
• 2:25
  I'll let the girls, yes actually let me introduce our guest to you first of all.
• 2:30
  First we have Carla who I believe Carla you were once with the Gowonan Tourism Board is that correct?
• 2:37
  Yes, I was.
• 2:38
  I've actually spent 21 years of my career working with the government, ending my tenure with the Ghana Tourist Board.
• 2:50
  and you are now working for our partner down there, Wilderness Explorers, is that correct?
• 2:54
  Yes, I made the adventurous trip of switching from government to the private sector.
• 3:00
  A lot of fun.
• 3:02
  And where are you coming to us from today?
• 3:05
  Are you actually in Guyana, in Georgetown?
• 3:07
  Yes, I am based in Georgetown, Guyana.
• 3:11
  Lovely.
• 3:11
  So you're obviously born in Guiana, I would assume by that.
• 3:15
  Yes, I'm actually um originally from a remote indigenous community called Camarang, um which actually is not known for tourism.
• 3:25
  uh That region, because of all the successes that they're seeing in other indigenous communities, are now looking to get involved in tourism.
• 3:33
  So really excited um to be where I am today and also to help those communities get in tourism.
• 3:41
  wonderful and we will touch on the indigenous interactions and Giana soon.
• 3:47
  And our other guest is Jane.
• 3:48
  Jane has been representing Giana for many years.
• 3:51
  Again, you just mentioned you'll be doing it for least a couple of years.
• 3:54
  So Jane, what's your background in relationship to Giana?
• 3:58
  So I started working for that.
• 3:59
  have a representation firm in the US started working for them in 2018 and uh representing them to the North American market.
• 4:09
  And it has just been so much fun.
• 4:15
  When I first started, everybody always thought we were selling.
• 4:18
  uh They'd say, where in Africa are you selling?
• 4:22
  And it would be no.
• 4:23
  wrong continent.
• 4:25
  so that has been absolutely it's been so much fun.
• 4:28
  And uh we get we get to share the this undiscovered part of South America with the world, though it's a lot more discovered now than it was in 2018.
• 4:39
  The changes have been unbelievable.
• 4:41
  Yeah, for sure.
• 4:42
  And we'll touch on some of the reasons why Ghana is expanding both from a regional economic point of view as we get into our conversation.
• 4:52
  And I think kudos must be uh sent out to the owner of Will, who's a fellow Australian, Tony.
• 4:59
  uh And I met Tony forever ago at one of our travel shows.
• 5:05
  It was called Latin Travel Mart.
• 5:06
  ah And Tony's been in Ghana for many years.
• 5:10
  ah
• 5:11
  been slogging it hard for all those years.
• 5:14
  Tension of Ghana to the world and I think probably finally now, and correct me if I'm wrong here, I think Jane you have inferred to it there that it's finally getting some
• 5:24
  traction from a tourism point of view for sure for Ghana and it's not being viewed as anymore as one of those countries that off the main tourist route which it has been
• 5:34
  historically.
• 5:35
  So before we get into all the sort of the meat to potatoes and cuisines, some little
• 5:40
  facts and stats people may not be aware of.
• 5:43
  Guyana was once part of British West Indies and by extension is the only country in South America with English as its official language.
• 5:54
  You have probably obviously Spanish, Portuguese, so I would assume by the name French Guyana, French would be the main language in that country.
• 6:03
  Either of you for that response?
• 6:06
  it is part of France.
• 6:07
  Yes.
• 6:08
  French Guyana is part of France.
• 6:10
  then Suriname is Dutch.
• 6:13
  was Dutch, yeah, because that was prior to the British taking control of Guyana, it was a Dutch colony.
• 6:20
  Christopher Columbus actually did spot it on what I think is third down there.
• 6:27
  But it was Sir Walter Raleigh who wrote an account of the region at the time.
• 6:31
  And as she said, the Dutch took it over, then the British and in 1966,
• 6:39
  Yarnow, Warnow, Took, or was granted, I'm not sure of the history there, so I'll let you ban that independence from Britain.
• 6:45
  So 1966 makes 2026, let me do my maths, 60 years anniversary.
• 6:51
  Is that right, Carla?
• 6:53
  yes, yes, it is.
• 6:54
  It's going to be a very big year celebration.
• 6:58
  I hope you've bet, and deservedly so.
• 7:01
  It's bordered, for those who may not know where it is, it's bordered by the Atlantic Ocean on its north, Brazil to the south and southwest, and Venezuela to the west, Suriname to
• 7:11
  the east, as we just referred to.
• 7:14
  It's referred to as the Guianas, which includes Suriname and French Guiana.
• 7:18
  So again, if you're looking at a map, you're looking at the top right-hand corner.
• 7:24
  Now,
• 7:25
  Carla, getting into Guiana by road, is there a way, say from Venezuela or Brazil, or do you have to fly into Guiana?
• 7:34
  uh You can actually get in from Brazil.
• 7:38
  We actually share a border town called Lethem and Bomfen.
• 7:42
  But you can also drive over to Suriname where we share a border as well using a very small ferry.
• 7:49
  We do not have any road connections with Venezuela.
• 7:54
  Right.
• 7:55
  And the reason I bring that up is for those who know me podcasts, I was an overland driver, I've driven through these regions.
• 8:01
  And this is one reason why, at least back in the day, it was often missed because there were no sort of main road.
• 8:06
  And actually you come in from Venezuela into Northern Brazil.
• 8:10
  And then from Manaus out, there was no roads at the time, but I think there are still many.
• 8:14
  So again, it was always sort of just off.
• 8:17
  It was literally on the map, of course, but off the driving map.
• 8:20
  And again, back in the day, it's big brothers and sisters, Venezuela.
• 8:24
  Brazil would grab all the limelight let alone the Ecuador's peruse of the region.
• 8:30
  That's what I think one reason why it's remained undiscovered to a degree.
• 8:37
  Now as Carla mentioned she is from an indigenous tribe down there and this is from Wikipedia so Carla you can correct me if I'm wrong.
• 8:47
  There are nine indigenous tribes that reside in Guiana.
• 8:50
  Is that still a correct stat?
• 8:53
  Yes, that is correct.
• 8:56
  I won't read them out because most people will not understand them or remember them all.
• 9:00
  But I think as we get into our conversation, you'll find that Guiana from its uh wildlife is also culturally very, very rich.
• 9:07
  And as Carla has also mentioned, the indigenous aspect can be part of an itinerary in the country.
• 9:13
  ah And on the wildlife point of view, Guiana, I'm just going to quote here, Guiana itself has one of the highest levels of biodiversity in the world.
• 9:22
  home to more than 225 species of mammals, 900 species of birds, 880 species of reptiles, and more than 6,500 species of plants.
• 9:33
  So you can see from that little introduction and the stats, it has cultural opportunities, it has wildlife, and by extension, adventure opportunities.
• 9:44
  So after all my rambling, let's get in and speak to the two experts about it.
• 9:49
  um So.
• 9:52
  uh I've inferred and stated outright that Guyana back in the day was often forgotten about from a traveller's point of view.
• 9:59
  uh It is now better connected to get to both land and by air.
• 10:06
  So let's start with some basics.
• 10:07
  We've discussed where Guyana is.
• 10:09
  If a traveller is wanting to get to Guyana, for all the reasons we'll discuss in a minute, how can they get there from North America?
• 10:17
  um So the very funny thing about Ghana, we've actually had very good air connections with the North American market for quite a number of years.
• 10:28
  The main gateways are actually Miami and New York.
• 10:31
  um Over recent years, we've had the addition of United Airlines, which now comes out of Houston.
• 10:38
  um
• 10:40
  And we also have connections with Copa Airlines, I think, which really services, I would say, the western part of the US.
• 10:48
  So you can actually take Copa Airlines from San Francisco, come all the way to Panama, and then to Guyana.
• 10:54
  So air connections with North America has been really, really great.
• 10:58
  You have American Airlines, United Airlines, Caribbean Airlines.
• 11:04
  um And more airlines are coming on stream.
• 11:07
  I would say it's a very big focus uh of the government in terms of increasing airlift.
• 11:13
  And not to forget Canada.
• 11:17
  We've got Toronto and Montreal, Transat and uh Caribbean Air.
• 11:23
  and their direct flights for the Canadian gateways.
• 11:25
  direct flights.
• 11:26
  Now Transat from uh Toronto and Montreal is just seasonal so it'll run from about now from I guess what is it December until April.
• 11:38
  Okay, so that you've sort of preempted two questions.
• 11:43
  um Are the flights seasonal?
• 11:45
  At least out of Canada they are.
• 11:46
  Carla, out of the US, are they seasonal or are annual?
• 11:50
  their annual.
• 11:52
  annual and therefore from the seasonal aspect Jane you mentioned running from now so and well it's a double-sided question here so from a flight point of view it's seasonal so
• 12:02
  it's Canadian winter so you know fun sun
• 12:06
  snowbird mindset as in when to go from a Canadian point of view in respect to airfare.
• 12:12
  But Carla, is Guyana a year-round destination?
• 12:15
  Is it seasonal?
• 12:16
  Is there a better time or worse, I shouldn't say worse time, is there a better time to go down to Guyana?
• 12:22
  Yes.
• 12:22
  um Again, coming back to what Guyana is really known for, what makes it special is wildlife and rainforests.
• 12:32
  And the best time to see and experience that is actually in the dry season.
• 12:37
  That's because the waterways, the rivers are a little dry, etc.
• 12:42
  So animals come out and you have higher chances of spotting them.
• 12:47
  So the dry season, actually, would say it's really two periods that we look at.
• 12:51
  So you're looking at from January to maybe up to the second week in April.
• 12:56
  And then we go into a very wet season um from there.
• 13:01
  And then you will do a dry season again, beginning from mid September, um just to the second week in December.
• 13:10
  So would the dry seasons also be termed as the high seasons for Gowna?
• 13:13
  Yes, it is.
• 13:16
  Is the rainy season a time not to go or it just offers different, obviously offers rain, it a time when you would say don't go or just be aware that you'll get more rain in that
• 13:30
  particular?
• 13:32
  Oh, definitely do come.
• 13:34
  It's a different experience.
• 13:36
  know, for example, um you know, going through flooded forests, every some of the very locations you go to spot wildlife and just to experience the rainforest.
• 13:45
  But you're going through instead of walking, for example, to go to what's a common pond, you'll now be taking a boat ride in the flooded forest to get there.
• 13:54
  The other thing as well is Kiter Falls, which is our very main attraction.
• 13:59
  During the wet season, you get to see it at its fullest and it's actually quite majestic when you travel at that time.
• 14:08
  The only downside of traveling in the rainy season is because it's a lot more rain.
• 14:13
  You have higher chances of your flights being canceled domestically because of rainfall.
• 14:19
  uh Visibility is important for pilots to land at the very small air strips that are found throughout Guyana.
• 14:26
  But people do travel during the wet season.
• 14:29
  Again, it's a different experience, but it's not considered our high season.
• 14:35
  And a lot of the diaspora will come during the wet season because they're coming during their summer holidays.
• 14:42
  Okay, interesting.
• 14:43
  um So Carla's points there of uh flights, et cetera, that leads to the geographical layout of Giana.
• 14:53
  So the main gateway which we didn't touch on was obviously, or would be, maybe obviously is Georgetown, which is on the coast, and it's the only city or the largest city in Giana?
• 15:04
  It is the largest town, is the main capital, but you have other small towns throughout the country.
• 15:15
  So, but Georgetown is the main one.
• 15:17
  Once you land in Guyana, you have to visit Georgetown before you go anywhere else.
• 15:26
  Okay, now we'll come back to Georgetown and its attractions in a minute.
• 15:29
  What I'm getting towards here is that when you look at a map of Yana, for the most part, again, I am sort of broad stroking it here.
• 15:37
  Coastal area around Georgetown is where you'll find, I'm doing inverted commas for those that aren't watching, um the city, civilization, so to speak.
• 15:46
  But for the most of it, I'd say 80 % is more wilderness based.
• 15:51
  So therefore getting around Ghana is often by flights to get into the centre or the heart of the country and then getting around by four wheel drives.
• 15:59
  Is that correct, Joan?
• 16:01
  That is correct.
• 16:02
  uh There is one main road that will take you into the interior.
• 16:09
  How many miles of that is now paved, Because they're working on it.
• 16:15
  Yeah, 48 miles, I believe is the last update.
• 16:18
  But yeah, that is changing every day.
• 16:25
  So 48 miles, a lot of people are gonna go, that's not a lot of road to get paid.
• 16:29
  Georgetown's paved.
• 16:34
  Let's not keep people confused.
• 16:36
  is paved.
• 16:36
  And again, it's like I've not been so I can't speak of it firsthand.
• 16:39
  ah It's like a, I wouldn't say city, a big town for the most part compared to other big cities in the region.
• 16:47
  But even 48 miles is not a lot of road when we talk the interior.
• 16:51
  Let me take a jump back here, Carla.
• 16:53
  How big is Ghana compared to a US state?
• 16:56
  Most people will say it's as big as Texas or as whatever.
• 16:59
  What's the equivalent when we're talking Ghana from its size, geographical size?
• 17:03
  Yeah.
• 17:05
  In comparison, would actually say Guyana is the size of Idaho.
• 17:08
  Yeah, so that's in terms of the landmass.
• 17:12
  Yeah.
• 17:14
  So 48 miles of road to the interior is not a lot, which goes to the point that even though Guyana is expanding, uh its wealth is increasing, we'll touch on that statement in a
• 17:26
  minute, um it's still, and again, I'm asking this question of you two, it's still, compared to its neighbors in particular, a rustic destination with an infrastructure that
• 17:38
  may not be at the same level as of today's recording as someone may see in Columbia, Ecuador,
• 17:44
  Brazil, etc.
• 17:45
  Is that a fair statement?
• 17:47
  That is a first statement.
• 17:49
  But what I would also add, it's really also what adds to Guyana's uh uniqueness.
• 17:55
  just to put a bit of that, we're talking about the size of Idaho.
• 17:58
  Picture 80 % of Idaho covered in rainforest, 80 % sorry, 87 % covered in rainforest and 80 % of that in pristine forests.
• 18:09
  So Jane mentioned there's this one main road that comes from the city.
• 18:14
  all the way going to the border town of Lethem, which goes into Brazil.
• 18:19
  So that's our main highways.
• 18:21
  Outside of that, it is a small aircrafts and our rivers actually have been the highways connecting indigenous communities, et cetera, which also forms part of the experiences
• 18:31
  that you are going to have when you come to a place like Diana.
• 18:35
  So people can view, and I'm now thinking from one of our destination specialists or travel partners, that when they're selling, if someone comes to them and asks, in general terms,
• 18:44
  Guiana, you could say um it's old school South America, it's more rustic than I use, it's an often used expression, it's a jewel in the crown, it's a gem, unhidden gem type thing,
• 18:58
  um where they're going to go to a country less touristed, um but
• 19:05
  very very natural in its offerings from wildlife to indigenous cultures.
• 19:11
  and everyone speaks English.
• 19:13
  And everyone speaks English.
• 19:14
  That's big plus.
• 19:17
  They do get little bit intimidated, even though most of South America is very well-versed and um switched on for foreign travelers and in particular English speakers, having
• 19:28
  English as the first language makes getting around and doing stuff.
• 19:32
  And so you don't need a translator to speak to the local community.
• 19:36
  They're showing you how to make uh cassava flour, they're just talking.
• 19:43
  And you can have the conversation back and forth.
• 19:45
  So it's really lovely not to have a translator.
• 19:48
  Right.
• 19:48
  On that point, Carla, I would assume with the nine Indigenous tribes that the Indigenous languages are still spoken amongst themselves.
• 19:57
  yes, it is.
• 19:58
  And I would say that tourism actually has been helping in maintaining those traditions and culture um because there was a part, would say, for a bit of time where, you know, young
• 20:12
  people or the younger generation, you know, was not becoming interested in maintaining those traditions.
• 20:17
  Now, because of tourism, it has rejuvenated that interest in keeping that culture so that we can continue to share that.
• 20:26
  uh with our visitors that are coming to these different locations.
• 20:31
  I think tourism has definitely been a force for good in preserving culture, traditions, heritage.
• 20:39
  So I would assume by that that uh maybe still to this day, but definitely in the past at least, the youth of the indigenous populations and or people outside of Georgetown were
• 20:50
  doing what most young people do, would head to the big city for university, different futures, that type of thing.
• 20:57
  And you're now saying tourism is helping, again this is my term, don't, could extend the tide of that physical exodus but also.
• 21:06
  as you just did uh say, the protection um of Indigenous cultures and languages and ways of life.
• 21:15
  Yes, definitely.
• 21:17
  um mean, I would say services are definitely improving in Indigenous communities.
• 21:23
  And as I said, tourism is helping a lot of that.
• 21:26
  So for example, in communities that have their um lodges that are owned and run by them, those revenues are going toward, for example, sponsoring someone from the community to go
• 21:38
  to university to become a doctor.
• 21:40
  So you have all these other domino effect.
• 21:42
  But what's happening from that
• 21:44
  is instead of that now trained doctor remaining in the city, they're now returning home to be part of their community development.
• 21:54
  Excellent, excellent.
• 21:55
  um So when a young person, be it from an indigenous community, uh be it British descent out in the bush or in Georgetown, when they look to go to university or uh further their
• 22:09
  education, are they staying within Yarner and Georgetown?
• 22:13
  Are they going somewhere else in South America?
• 22:15
  Are they coming to the States, going to the UK for that education?
• 22:20
  I would say majority of it is in Guyana.
• 22:24
  But there are quite a bit now where there are scholarships that are being offered by many, many countries.
• 22:30
  So you are seeing a slight increase in people going overseas, cetera.
• 22:36
  And more recently, with the advancement of technology and internet, people are now able to, you
• 22:44
  improve their education through online school, universities, etc.
• 22:49
  um And that actually would have changed quite a bit, especially since COVID.
• 22:53
  So Starlink has uh also helped.
• 23:00
  now people are able to attend classes right from the comfort of their home and communities, even in the big cities, etc.
• 23:07
  yeah, um would say education majority of it is in Georgetown, Guyana, but
• 23:14
  now the different platforms to access have definitely increased.
• 23:19
  But Guyana has a long-term reputation for having an excellent educational system.
• 23:26
  uh I deal a lot here in the US with lot of uh college professors who are Guyanese, and there are a lot of PhDs from Guyana.
• 23:38
  It sounds like tourism as it should and modern technology as it should in a perfect world is having a huge positive impact for Ghana in that tourism is, uh again my term,
• 23:52
  reinvigorating the indigenous way of life as in protecting it, keeping it.
• 23:58
  thriving and also you're not seeing a brain drain away from the country.
• 24:02
  It sounds like people are happy to learn and or better their education within Ghana and you say Jane there's a good infrastructure there already and even if they do go overseas
• 24:11
  they're returning back.
• 24:13
  it sounds like the positives of both tourism and modern technology is, has been a very positive experience for the country of Ghana.
• 24:23
  On that note,
• 24:25
  Statistically, this is my reading up.
• 24:27
  think Ghana had quite a high poverty level uh up to 10 years ago, but I've learned in some recent conversations with Tony, the owner of Will and Six Blowers, and just some general
• 24:39
  research that, and it's a very hot topic at the moment politically, Ghana has discovered very large oil reserves off its coastline to the point I think it's, like it's
• 24:51
  substantial.
• 24:52
  fine and I believe that the oil industry is gathering pace there at the moment which can hopefully only benefit Ghana more from an economic point of view.
• 25:03
  So Carla would you like to expand on again does have a huge impact on tourism but I think it's
• 25:09
  It has had an impact on tourism because of the air lift.
• 25:13
  uh
• 25:14
  okay.
• 25:15
  Yeah, course.
• 25:16
  Yeah, Carl, do you want to expand on that a bit and just, you know, the impact that it has and will hopefully have on the country in general and tourism in particular?
• 25:24
  Yes, definitely.
• 25:26
  actually, would say Guyana, uh what do I say, first pulled oil um out of the earth in 2015.
• 25:34
  And um I do think just because of the way it is being managed or the way the growth has really helped the country, it is having a positive effect.
• 25:44
  Jane talked about uh increased airlift.
• 25:47
  That was actually as a direct result of increased demand for travel, business travelers, people coming to invest or even support services to support the oil industry.
• 25:59
  uh Ghana did not have or still does not have, I would say, the technical skill set.
• 26:06
  support the oil and gas.
• 26:07
  So a lot of that labor was imported.
• 26:10
  Now there's a lot of local content that's involved where Guyanese are being upscaled.
• 26:15
  So over the next coming years, we're going to be able to take over those technical positions, et cetera.
• 26:20
  So immediately just to support the workforce, there was an increase in airlift.
• 26:25
  Now that's a positive for Ghana, for the tourism industry, because we've been appealing for airlift for many, many years.
• 26:32
  As I mentioned to you, we had the two main gateways with North America, which was New York,
• 26:36
  and Miami, but we wanted more ill if with Europe, et cetera.
• 26:40
  And those oh are now being serviced and that's increasing and changing every time.
• 26:45
  um Another positive impact for oil and gas is just raising the standard in which businesses operate.
• 26:55
  um In oil and gas, health and safety is really, really big.
• 27:00
  And that has allowed every industry
• 27:04
  to improve their standard, including tourism.
• 27:07
  um COVID also would have helped in that because we really had to examine the way we were operating and improve that.
• 27:14
  So, oil and gas is having an effect, um just higher standard of operation.
• 27:20
  So, one of the other things for, again, is the oil revenues.
• 27:25
  um
• 27:26
  There is a structured way for Guyana in terms of how those resources are used.
• 27:33
  And there are select industries that are being used to diversify the economy beyond oil and gas.
• 27:41
  And tourism is one of that industry that has been identified to help the economy beyond oil.
• 27:50
  So there is a concerted effort in terms of investing in tourism.
• 27:55
  There is massive infrastructure development that's happening in the capital, on the coast, in the interior where, know, Dojane was talking about this one road.
• 28:07
  There is expansion of roadways.
• 28:09
  There is expansion of airstrips to accommodate larger aircrafts, etc.
• 28:17
  All of this is happening because of the oil and gas revenue.
• 28:21
  And all of these developments supports the industry.
• 28:25
  in a couple of years, Georgetown is going to look drastically different.
• 28:29
  Ghana is going to look drastically different.
• 28:31
  However, the development of tourism is being very thoughtful.
• 28:37
  I talk about the 87 % forest coverage.
• 28:40
  The plan is not to clear that down.
• 28:43
  The plan is to keep that and to use the resources from oil and gas to support the development of the tourism.
• 28:50
  agriculture and other uh industries like that.
• 28:56
  I'm also going to add sorry.
• 28:57
  I'm also going to add they're upgrading the port Yeah, so for ships to come in now not huge giant ships, but they're either making that better for smaller more boutique cruise
• 29:12
  Ships that will be able to come in
• 29:14
  The clarification from a geographical point of view, my understanding is the oil find is offshore, correct?
• 29:21
  Right, so in your conversation there of development off the back of oil and gas, at least as we sit here today, this does not impact Yana's interior with logging and clearing.
• 29:36
  But you did mention making a strips bigger, type of thing.
• 29:39
  That's not directly for the oil and gas industry.
• 29:42
  That's just a byproduct.
• 29:44
  to invest in the infrastructure of the country, correct?
• 29:47
  Correct.
• 29:49
  And keep in mind, you also have a lot of expats who are living in Georgetown and they want to do things for the weekend.
• 29:57
  That's what I was gonna out of the city.
• 29:59
  Yeah, so.
• 30:00
  Have all these experts coming in to develop the oil and gas Yeah, they're want to do stuff in their downtime and any type of tourism is a natural byproduct of that So that's the
• 30:10
  first I guess um Well other than the tourism that's been there for years That's the first you know big injection of of youth people and by extension You know as we all know travel
• 30:21
  is a lot of word word of mouth This country's great.
• 30:23
  This company's great.
• 30:24
  Go away uh
• 30:27
  on from being the poorest country in South America to the wealthiest.
• 30:32
  Yes, exactly.
• 30:33
  And that's what I was going to sort of wrap this point up that it's uh oil and gas has again, like everything's got its pros and cons.
• 30:42
  One of the pros will be obviously more wealth into the country and if it can be managed properly, which I have no doubt it will be, ah then everyone from visitors in to the
• 30:51
  Indigenous communities to the locals uh hopefully can only benefit from it.
• 30:56
  Jane, I'm going to ask you this as an American and the fact that you aren't aboard as Venezuela at the moment.
• 31:01
  Well, actually, should probably ask Carla.
• 31:02
  She's probably closer to this from a political view.
• 31:05
  Carla, the again, I say this because we're recording this in early January 26.
• 31:09
  There's obviously some friction with Venezuela and the US government at the moment.
• 31:15
  As it stands today, is there any perceived overspill of those issues in Togana or it's just really too far away to warrant any concern for a traveler?
• 31:25
  Yeah, no, it's definitely too far away.
• 31:29
  And I do think that Venezuela has its own problems uh to focus on.
• 31:34
  And I would say for years, I this is a long standing issue that we've had with Venezuela, and it's always been an exchange of words, really, um a new action.
• 31:44
  So I know that there's a lot of information online, really positions Ghana.
• 31:50
  in some way as being unsafe because of this potential situation.
• 31:54
  But the reality on the ground is um everything is basically normal uh in terms of operations, flights.
• 32:01
  There's no disruption to business.
• 32:03
  is business as usual.
• 32:04
  But yeah, we continue to monitor it.
• 32:06
  But it is not something that we are worried about in terms of that situation spilling over to Guyana.
• 32:13
  Yeah, again, I expected as much in that response.
• 32:15
  you know, I'm sure there will be travel partners out there who may get that question or may themselves be conscious of it.
• 32:24
  again, as of recording, there is no issue there.
• 32:28
  uh One thing I would like to point out based on back of Carla's response to the oil and gas thing is that as the country or in Jane's point, from poorest to potentially the
• 32:37
  wealthiest country in the region.
• 32:40
  And Carla did say Georgetown will look
• 32:42
  drastically different in two or three years from now, and I'm sure it's changed in the last two or three years from the original fight, is that clients and passengers out there,
• 32:50
  travelers out there, to see Guiana as it probably would, you can never see things as they were, but if you want that rustic experience, that sort of forgotten...
• 33:02
  South American country getting now before its wealth does maybe change it to the point that it's not what it was.
• 33:08
  You know, it's natural progression, of course, and I'm sure, know, Kala is a Guyanese.
• 33:13
  Guyanese?
• 33:14
  Is that the correct terminology?
• 33:16
  That's how she Guyanese.
• 33:18
  I need sorry, my bad.
• 33:20
  m You know, welcomes the change in the improvement of her country.
• 33:25
  But for a traveler, if you want to see that untouched rustic site, get in sooner rather than later, because it will change probably faster than the average country due to gas and
• 33:35
  impact.
• 33:36
  So that's the modern progression we're seeing now, the investment, the money that will come into the country.
• 33:44
  So
• 33:45
  As I just said, Guyana is about the rustic experience, the wildlife experience, the indigenous experience.
• 33:51
  we've established that, you know, civilization, again inverted commas for those who aren't watching, is pretty much coastal.
• 33:57
  The interior, 80 % of it is rainforest, of that 8 % is virgin.
• 34:03
  So what are the highlights, and the draw to go into the interior of Guyana?
• 34:08
  Why do people need to do this?
• 34:11
  Yeah.
• 34:13
  I think on top of the list is really that cultural immersion.
• 34:18
  Again, having those direct conversations with the Indigenous people who are really the protectors of the forest that we have intact to this day um and having them uh share their
• 34:32
  tradition and culture with you.
• 34:36
  And outside of that, you
• 34:38
  you talk about the biodiversity within Guyana, that's what makes Guyana special and being able to see nature as it is intended.
• 34:49
  You know, there's not a lot of places too that you can go to and have an entire national park, for example, I'm talking about the Kaitro National Park, to just you and your group.
• 35:00
  You know, you're not competing to get the perfect view, etc.
• 35:05
  You have the entire place to yourself.
• 35:07
  um And this is also even when you go to the interior lodges, etc.
• 35:12
  um They're very small, most are eight to 10 rooms.
• 35:17
  So majority of the time you go there with you or just it's just going to be your group having the entire place to yourself.
• 35:22
  So you have that um personal attention, so to speak.
• 35:27
  And it really does, I would say, change your definition of what's luxury because you're just getting that personal attention from all the people that you interact with.
• 35:38
  And you know, something I did one time a few years back is I went on a camping trip.
• 35:44
  We went, you know, four hours up a river and four or five hours up a river and we did not see another human being who was not in our group for four days.
• 35:55
  And there are not many places that you can experience that in the world.
• 36:00
  And it was so special.
• 36:03
  That experience then goes back to my point before of getting in there now before it becomes even more popular, which I know is the goal of both Jane and Carla, get more
• 36:13
  people there.
• 36:14
  it's that sort of, know, ah but, you know, it will take time and infrastructure will come.
• 36:19
  But if you really, if I'm talking about travel partners out there now, if they're really looking to offer a destination in South America that's new, different, safe, English
• 36:30
  speaking, um
• 36:32
  And again, a hark back to the back in the day, then Yana should be at the top of that list for sure.
• 36:39
  uh Carla, you mentioned uh group sizes or being in an area where you're the only person around.
• 36:46
  So I am going, well, I know this, I've asked this question before in other podcasts, but I'll ask again.
• 36:52
  The infrastructure when it comes to accommodation uh outside of Georgetown, I know in Georgetown you have your sort of corporate hotels plus local hotels, five, four,
• 37:01
  three-star, excuse me, but when someone heads the interior, what level of accommodation are they looking at ah when they're in that area?
• 37:12
  um I would actually best describe it as very simple and rustic.
• 37:18
  You have a comfortable bed, clean rooms, running water.
• 37:22
  um The only thing you don't have is hot water.
• 37:26
  um You have internet.
• 37:28
  um There was one other thing, Jane, we always say we don't have air No air conditioning, Those are the only two luxury items that you are missing.
• 37:39
  But when you're actually uh
• 37:41
  in the jungle or in the savanna lodges, you actually don't need hot water.
• 37:46
  It's actually quite refreshing.
• 37:49
  And sometimes you really don't need that cold shower, so to speak, to just, you know, set your temperature back and just to be ready for the next adventure.
• 38:00
  Fair enough.
• 38:02
  Is the intent, I know you're now private sector car, but you did work with the tourism board, with the incoming wealth through oil and gas, and then hopefully the increase in
• 38:12
  numbers of travelers coming to Guyana, is the intent to expand on the accommodation levels in the interior or to keep it at that experience of that rustic simple level?
• 38:24
  uh I think from both private sector and the government standpoint, uh everyone wants to grow, but we also want to grow, I would say, to a level that is manageable.
• 38:36
  So from a private sector standpoint, uh the largest etc., they are looking to increase their capacity.
• 38:44
  And the reason is for that is because I mentioned about the age rooms and oftentimes uh
• 38:50
  Even right now, like we're looking for 2027, 2028 accommodation availability.
• 38:56
  And sometimes these small accommodations are booked out six months to one year in advance.
• 39:03
  So there's definitely a need for more capacity.
• 39:07
  So that is happening slowly from the private sector, the current private sector that we have.
• 39:13
  And we are also looking at investing in
• 39:18
  I would say higher quality accommodation, more luxurious as well.
• 39:22
  And that's because the market is asking for that and we have to meet that demand.
• 39:27
  So I know from a government perspective, they have put out, for example, a call for proposals for more luxury lodges, resorts, et cetera, within different locations within
• 39:41
  Guyana.
• 39:43
  So I think it's going to be a hand in hand where you're going to have different options.
• 39:49
  Like right now you go to an area, you have only one accommodation option.
• 39:54
  In the next five years, now you're going to have the option to say, do I want a rustic lodge that is managed by an indigenous community?
• 40:04
  Or it could be an indigenous community partnering with another private sector to offer something that's a little more upscale.
• 40:11
  So that's the direction, but it's not a case where nobody's putting up 100 rooms in any particular location.
• 40:19
  That's not the kind of growth that um is going to happen.
• 40:23
  And that is an agreement.
• 40:24
  I was there a concerted effort by both the private and government.
• 40:27
  We want to grow in a very sustainable way.
• 40:30
  We are very passionate about our environment.
• 40:33
  So it is going to be a consultative process.
• 40:37
  uh Yeah.
• 40:39
  And just to grow in a way that we can manage.
• 40:41
  Yeah, one of the beauties of Guyana is because tourism has been so small, they have been able to see where other places have failed, where other places have done a good job.
• 40:55
  And so they have really come up with an excellent, excellent plan.
• 40:59
  And it is a really good plan that they've put together for growth.
• 41:05
  And they've been able to see what works and what doesn't from other countries.
• 41:11
  Agreed and Jane can attest to this because you also look after some lodges and destinations in Africa as well.
• 41:19
  What you generally see these days and what a trend is, I wouldn't say it's a Trinity more, just the way people like to travel for the most part, is you will have travelers looking
• 41:29
  to experience the authentic side of the country and choice of this.
• 41:33
  Be involved in indigenous interactions.
• 41:38
  be confident in knowing that the money they're spending is going to some degree back into the local communities, the local economies, but you will also find that the average go
• 41:49
  away climb for the most part.
• 41:52
  as roughy-toughy as they like to be during the day ah or over a couple of days of maybe trekking and camping, they then want to come back to something comfortable from an
• 42:01
  accommodation point of view.
• 42:03
  I see, and Joan, you can again attest to this, that almost every new property that opens up...
• 42:07
  uh
• 42:09
  around the world is four to five star these days.
• 42:12
  There's not a lot of people going in at the rustic three star level for the most part.
• 42:16
  So it's good to hear that Ghana is heading that way because there will be people looking for it.
• 42:20
  It's good to know that they're going to be opening up more than one lodge in one area because again, if you're both successful in your roles, which I know you will be, yeah,
• 42:28
  you're going to have demand outstripping supply, which we don't want to get to.
• 42:33
  But on the flip side, it's good to hear Carla say that it's going to be done in a very controlled uh
• 42:39
  in consultive and sustainable way because a lot of the aspects of Gyanah we're preaching today, it's rusticness, it's indigenous aspect, it's beautiful wildlife and nature.
• 42:51
  You don't want to have, uh if not destroy, damage by increasing too fast, quickly, and in the wrong ways.
• 42:57
  uh From the wildlife point of view,
• 43:00
  um I know that you can see, or probably one of more famous birdlife birds down there is the happy eagle.
• 43:06
  ah Can you see jaguars in Yana?
• 43:11
  Yes, you can.
• 43:13
  But you have to be really lucky.
• 43:14
  going to watch the movie.
• 43:15
  Bye.
• 43:17
  You have to be lucky.
• 43:19
  Yeah, no.
• 43:20
  So the reason I say you have to be lucky is I've been in the industry for over 20 years and I've been on multiple trips in the interior of Ghana and I have not been lucky enough
• 43:29
  to see it.
• 43:30
  But I have had groups travel just before me, just after me, and they've had good luck in spotting the Jaguar on this very main highway, this one highway that we talked about going
• 43:43
  from the city all the way to Latham.
• 43:46
  uh The more common area for spotting the jaguar is actually in the Arocrama Rainforest Reserve.
• 43:53
  People have had really great luck in spotting it in that location.
• 43:58
  And the good thing is with the way itineraries are designed, they give you multiple uh opportunities to be able to spot these wildlife.
• 44:07
  I think as a matter of fact, uh I think we really do focus a lot on the giants that you can see in Guyana.
• 44:16
  So the jaguar is the largest cat.
• 44:18
  Another large mammals that you are able to see, for example, the giant ant eater.
• 44:25
  You also have the giant river otters.
• 44:27
  We have the giant river turtles.
• 44:29
  We have the largest snake, which is the anaconda.
• 44:33
  There's a lot of giants, including the harpy.
• 44:35
  The biggest spider, but which is, it's not on a wall guys.
• 44:43
  It's in the ground.
• 44:44
  You're going to see it in the forest.
• 44:48
  Because because Australia has a lot of big spiders all over the place.
• 44:51
  Yeah, Carla in respect to the the big wildlife you just listed there, um with the exception of the jagger, which you can see it is hard to see lucky to see.
• 45:01
  m Someone doing a trip into Ghana on a wildlife based trip, which sounds like what most of the trips would be.
• 45:09
  um Are they likely to see those giant species you just mentioned?
• 45:14
  Yeah.
• 45:14
  So I would say the ones that are more common, like you get to see a lot of monkeys, but giant ant eater, you have a very high chance of seeing that.
• 45:24
  Especially if you go to a place like Karanambu or Wiccan Lodge or Wichabayi.
• 45:29
  And you also get to see giant river otters.
• 45:32
  Again, once you come in a dry season, you have a greater chance and opportunity to see the wildlife.
• 45:41
  And then birds like the harpy eagle they tend to nest and they nest in an area for years And so they know where they are and if you make a specific trip to where they are Your
• 45:54
  chances are you're gonna see them
• 45:56
  And Jane, that leads, or jumps into my next question.
• 46:00
  I know for a fact that Gowner is famous for birding or bird life and in turn, birding.
• 46:05
  So beyond the Harpy Eagle, um we have birding itinerary or birding focused itinerary.
• 46:12
  So if someone's into bird life, outside the Harpy Eagle, what else of note is there to see from a birding point of view?
• 46:20
  the Sun Parakeet, the Guyana Cuck of the Rock.
• 46:24
  um
• 46:27
  not a great birding expert myself.
• 46:31
  I would say like the Hwatsin as well, the blood colored woodpecker.
• 46:36
  uh Quite a lot of, um I would say on a trip that someone comes, they really do hit a lot on their list.
• 46:44
  And again, this ranges from coastal to savanna um to rainforest in terms of the habitats that you're going to be able to um visit and experience.
• 46:55
  The Red List can actually was one.
• 46:58
  the red sisk in Yes, that's very important.
• 47:01
  Yeah.
• 47:02
  Yeah, it's
• 47:03
  Going back to the rustic aspect of the interior in particular, ah not that it should be a driving force for someone to travel, but as a photographer taking photos and then wanting
• 47:12
  to either upload them or share them, you mentioned Starlink has made a big uh impact in Ghana.
• 47:19
  for the most part, will people be connected when they're in the interior if they choose to be?
• 47:25
  They are going to have uh internet connection at the lodge itself.
• 47:30
  When they go out on the road and on the waterways, no, because you don't really have a lot of cell coverage, but at the lodge itself, they're going to have internet and be
• 47:38
  connected.
• 47:40
  Okay, that's key, as long as people have it at the end of the day.
• 47:43
  I think that's an important part.
• 47:45
  So we've discussed wildlife, we've discussed some of the species, the birds, we've talked about Indigenous encounters a lot, but we haven't been specific.
• 47:53
  So, Carla and or Jane, if someone wanted to go down with an Indigenous encounter as their sort of focal point of their trip, what's on offer?
• 48:05
  So there's quite a lot of indigenous communities that are really doing tourism right.
• 48:11
  um Sarama Ecology is one of the very, or is the first community actually to get involved in tourism.
• 48:19
  That community is actually one of the locations you go to if you want to see the Harpy Eagle.
• 48:26
  And again, you're talking with um Mukushi guides in English.
• 48:32
  Mukushi, by the way, is one of the indigenous groups.
• 48:36
  They're known to be very shy, so being very new to tourism as well.
• 48:40
  They're learning to be host, but also having a very good time.
• 48:45
  Another kiminiti that does really, really good is called Riwa.
• 48:50
  Riwa Ecology.
• 48:52
  They are best known for doing sports fishing.
• 48:56
  And as a matter of fact, they do catch and release of the Arapaima.
• 48:59
  uh
• 49:00
  which is the world's largest skilled freshwater fish.
• 49:03
  um And they have limits and permits and being able to do that.
• 49:08
  But it's also one of the location that's very, very good for spotting um wildlife as well.
• 49:15
  um And the beauty about REWA is their community, which is just over 300 persons living in that area.
• 49:24
  They all within a year, they work at the very lodge.
• 49:29
  that supports that community.
• 49:31
  So they have a very nice community business model for tourism.
• 49:38
  You also have other private lodges that operate within Indigenous communities, like Karinamble Lodge, for example.
• 49:47
  While it's privately owned, its team members are all from Indigenous communities that are nearby.
• 49:55
  So the guides, the people who are cooking for you, making your beds, et cetera, they're all indigenous people.
• 50:01
  And you also go to Wichabayi, which is in a place that is deep south in the Rupinuni.
• 50:09
  And if someone types GAN in the Rupinuni, they're going to see that that's a destination within GAN of itself.
• 50:14
  But again, um this ranch, this working ranch is located nearby indigenous communities who all
• 50:24
  work at the lodge and the ranch and also showcase their culture within the communities themselves.
• 50:31
  So depending on what experience you're looking for, there is something for everyone.
• 50:36
  As a matter of fact, I talked earlier about that I was born in a community called Camerang, which is in a geographic area that's called Region 7.
• 50:47
  That particular area is now getting
• 50:50
  involved in tourism, more focusing on hard adventure.
• 50:53
  So a lot more multi-day tracks and tracks and mountains and going to different waterfalls.
• 51:00
  um One of the communities that we're actually so very proud to work with is called Parima.
• 51:06
  They're the last remaining Aracuna indigenous group that is settled in Guyana.
• 51:13
  And this is actually found um very close to Mount Rima, that border with
• 51:19
  um Brazil and Venezuela.
• 51:22
  So that community, think, if we look at the history of tourism and developing um tourism within Indigenous Committee over the years, Sarama took 10 years to develop their product.
• 51:36
  Rewa took half, I think they say half that time.
• 51:40
  And now you have Parima, which is our most recent, they actually developed tourism, I say within two years.
• 51:46
  So the learning curve
• 51:47
  for Indigenous communities getting involved in tourism is getting shorter, and that's because they're learning from each other, and they have more experts like us who are
• 51:56
  helping to um train them and get them involved in tourism.
• 52:02
  So there's a lot of successes, and I've just named a few.
• 52:06
  There's another village that's called uh Warapulka, which is also known for the Harpy Eagle as well.
• 52:13
  So depending on your interest, there's just something for everyone.
• 52:18
  It would sound like therefore any trip into the interior at its base level has indigenous interaction because it sounds like almost all the guides, if not all, and all the staff
• 52:31
  will be indigenous, of indigenous tribes of the area.
• 52:35
  And then you can take that up a notch if you want to get more involved or have a stronger interaction with the local cultures.
• 52:41
  Yeah, very true.
• 52:43
  You know, I talk about Turama, for example, they have a farm to table experience where you actually go to their farm where they're planting the cassava and then they show you how
• 52:51
  they use that for their food, making it into cassava bread or another uh staple that's called farine, which is kind of like couscous, if I'm to give it a comparison.
• 53:02
  And show you how to make all of these things.
• 53:05
  again, depending on how interested you are, there are multiple experiences within the communities.
• 53:11
  within the lodges um who employ um local people, local Indigenous people.
• 53:19
  When it comes to education or coming back to education, the youth of these tribes...
• 53:26
  tribes not the right word, I guess it is.
• 53:29
  Is it?
• 53:29
  Is tribes the correct terminology?
• 53:32
  They actually refer to indigenous groups, yes.
• 53:36
  Indigenous groups, okay.
• 53:38
  So for each of these indigenous groups in the interior when the youth are growing up when it comes to education are there local schools they attend there and are they taught their
• 53:48
  Indigenous language as well as English growing up?
• 53:52
  So I'll take the first part of your question.
• 53:54
  Yes, there are schools, there's nursery, primary for many years, and now they've been adding uh high schools within the area so that they're able to graduate at a much higher
• 54:05
  level.
• 54:06
  So there's been that has been happening and improving.
• 54:09
  I think going back to Jade's point that education has been a top priority for Ghana for many years, and that continues to evolve.
• 54:19
  One of the uh you talk about
• 54:21
  teaching in Indigenous language.
• 54:24
  Now, there is actually one community where I know within the past five years, they have been doing a pilot regarding, and this is actually the Wapishan Indigenous group in a
• 54:36
  village called Aishalton.
• 54:38
  And they actually found that the students were performing much better when they were taught in their local language.
• 54:45
  So because that pilot has been successful, they're now looking to expanding to another
• 54:51
  um Indigenous language, which might be Makushi, and then to expand that throughout the rest of Guyana.
• 54:58
  But they did a pilot, they saw that it was successful and that has been exciting, especially for me because I actually grew up in Camerung in my home where my mom spoke Ako
• 55:10
  Wai'o.
• 55:10
  I'm actually from the Ako Wai'o Indigenous group.
• 55:15
  I would say in cultures there, know, children, when you're young, you're not allowed to be part of adult conversations.
• 55:22
  So because of that, my mom actually spoke to me in English and spoke to her family in Acoaio.
• 55:27
  So unfortunately, the little that I know is from my grandmother when I would visit her farm, et cetera, when I was a very young child.
• 55:35
  But beyond that, to have a full on conversation, I missed out on that.
• 55:41
  Jane, you mentioned that you did a camping trip at one stage.
• 55:47
  Carla, you mentioned in a previous answer about hardcore adventure.
• 55:52
  As we've mentioned, Guiana, for most part, is a rustic experience you're going to take.
• 55:57
  Going into the interior is adventurous in itself.
• 56:00
  So can either of you, let's give Jane an opportunity here.
• 56:04
  From soft adventure to hard adventure, can you give us some examples of what people can choose to do?
• 56:09
  So, you know like on the camping trip we were sleeping in hammocks surrounded by mosquito netting and I will tell you a hammock is the most comfortable thing ever to sleep in.
• 56:21
  You're not on the ground.
• 56:23
  The locals, the indigenous people do not sleep on the ground.
• 56:25
  They sleep in hammocks.
• 56:27
  But you can go, you can, going out in the boats fishing, going out with the local community to
• 56:38
  capture Caymans uh for a research project to help with that.
• 56:43
  I'm just trying to think, the four-wheeling, there's a rally you can do four-wheeling.
• 56:50
  You can actually rent the cars and I would do it with a guide and go out and drive.
• 56:57
  uh Is there an equivalent of a trek to the lost city or a trek to Machu Picchu?
• 57:06
  I don't mean trekking to a set of ruins per se, but an extended overnight trekking route or a famous...
• 57:13
  like can you walk to Qaeda
• 57:17
  takes three days, I believe.
• 57:19
  Yes, you can.
• 57:21
  You can do it over land.
• 57:24
  and do it over and that'd be camping en route.
• 57:27
  Correct.
• 57:29
  So to summarize, you can do soft adventure, considering where you are in virgin rainforest, to more hardcore adventure from rally driving to trekking to the waterfalls
• 57:40
  and everything.
• 57:42
  And there's a guy who will take you out if you want to go out for a month into the wilderness and go up the rivers and explore.
• 57:50
  You can do that.
• 57:53
  And there is even I forgot the jungle survival course that you can do.
• 58:01
  Really?
• 58:03
  Okay.
• 58:05
  Yes.
• 58:07
  That one teaches you mental strength to be in the jungle on your own.
• 58:12
  Obviously they give you the skills to survive before they let you go in the jungle on your own, but I think that one is quite an interesting experience.
• 58:24
  You're released on your own into the jungle?
• 58:26
  Yes, you are for the jungle survival.
• 58:28
  You have to survive on your own to pass that course.
• 58:35
  survival course.
• 58:36
  not a it's it's it's not a weekend warrior course.
• 58:40
  It's like
• 58:41
  It is a proper survival course.
• 58:43
  I actually said to the guy who started it years ago, said, I would die.
• 58:48
  And he said, Nope, because I will teach you how not to die.
• 58:52
  That's a pretty extreme even for Goy to start releasing some of our travelers into the wilds of Guiana on their own.
• 59:00
  We like hard adventure but I think that's truly extreme adventure.
• 59:04
  But they're well trained by the time they do it.
• 59:07
  Okay, now one thing I'd like to return to this is from a historic point of view a Lot of people have probably heard about this incident have heard the name but never put
• 59:18
  one-on-one together I is where Yana is in respect to this and this is Jonestown I think the terminology all this precious the Jones town massacre and it was from um It was a US
• 59:33
  based evangelistic preacher of some description
• 59:36
  who had his followers go to Guiana and, uh what was his name, Jane?
• 59:43
  Jim Jones.
• 59:44
  And he created Jonestown where his disciples and followers gathered and for whatever reasons, I don't know the history well enough, but this is why through this particular
• 59:52
  tour, he convinced them, or maybe not convinced them, forced them into a mass suicide.
• 59:58
  that was, when was that, Jane?
• 1:00:00
  When was that?
• 1:00:03
  1978 or so.
• 1:00:05
  that correct, Carla?
• 1:00:06
  Something around there?
• 1:00:09
  Right now there have been a lot of documentaries on it where they've gone back and looked at it after like 40 years.
• 1:00:18
  And I remember actually seeing one of those because it came to note to me as a young Australian on the news and make news for obvious reasons.
• 1:00:25
  And it was just presented at the time.
• 1:00:27
  And this is also youth and 40 years ago memories.
• 1:00:30
  was like this.
• 1:00:32
  These disciples willingly took their lives for police.
• 1:00:37
  That's well, that's what I think.
• 1:00:39
  has been more discovered in recent years, it wasn't so much a voluntary situation, it was more a forced situation.
• 1:00:47
  um so Carla, when that happened, obviously it was huge news.
• 1:00:52
  um As times have changed, and I would assume by the fact there's now a tour based around this, that Giana has accepted that part of its history and is now willing to discuss it
• 1:01:04
  with the world.
• 1:01:04
  Is that uh why this tour was sort of...
• 1:01:08
  m
• 1:01:08
  cradle was it through uh...
• 1:01:10
  was it through demand the people did not get out did not get the the jones town massacre and wanted to learn more about it all all the above
• 1:01:18
  Yeah, I think a little bit of all that you've said, but I think one of the main things too is the perception that it was actually Guyanese who would have perished um at this
• 1:01:31
  massacre.
• 1:01:32
  uh And you have quoted the history correct, but there's still a lot of unknown and wrong information around that tour.
• 1:01:41
  So, Guyana has been known for this situation for many, many years or this incident for many years.
• 1:01:48
  And we wanted to be able to tell, I would say, the Guyana side of it while respectfully telling that story and how it happened and why it happened, basically.
• 1:02:01
  Can I ask a question, and this is pure curiosity and I'm sure it would come out in the tour down there, but why did Jim Jones choose Guiana to set up his ministry or his base?
• 1:02:13
  I don't know if we know that particular answer as to why he chose Guyana particularly.
• 1:02:19
  ah
• 1:02:20
  I think it was an expensive land.
• 1:02:22
  Yeah, that's probably that's probably the reason.
• 1:02:25
  Yes.
• 1:02:26
  And you can be isolated enough.
• 1:02:29
  Yeah, because back in the 70s, Guiana would be obviously even less known about the...
• 1:02:35
  Yeah, again, it's curious and as I...
• 1:02:38
  And it is still a sticky subject.
• 1:02:40
  A lot of people don't like that they're doing this tour.
• 1:02:43
  Well, that was my next question is like, it's still a small point, even though was 78 or whatever you mentioned.
• 1:02:49
  As I said, like I heard about it in the news, and then it fell out of my memory for obvious reasons being in Australia.
• 1:02:54
  But when I started working as an Overland Guide in Latin America, it became sort of not on the radar, but because it was in the region, I did a bit more research into it and learn a
• 1:03:04
  bit more about it.
• 1:03:05
  So yeah, I can well understand that it'd still be a touchy subject I was surprised when you did mention that it was an option down there But at the same time there's I guess this
• 1:03:14
  curiosity
• 1:03:15
  People always ask me.
• 1:03:17
  mean, it's one of the first things.
• 1:03:18
  Yeah.
• 1:03:19
  You know, it's interesting when I started working for the country, uh my sister, who's older than me said Jonestown, my nephew said Gold Rush because the TV show Gold Rush was
• 1:03:32
  there.
• 1:03:32
  Yeah.
• 1:03:33
  uh I can see why the government and all the people may not want it to be the point of reclassification.
• 1:03:43
  had nothing to do with it.
• 1:03:44
  Other than allowing them in.
• 1:03:48
  Yeah, exactly.
• 1:03:50
  but I guess ah fame will be in it.
• 1:03:55
  Fame, albeit infamous fame is a reason that people will notice your country.
• 1:04:01
  Again, if it gets them in the door, that's, you know, they're in the
• 1:04:05
  and charm them with the great food and everything else once they're there.
• 1:04:09
  But to be perfectly honest, I don't think that will be the main driving force.
• 1:04:14
  I everything we discussed today will, and if someone has an interest, they now know, our travel partners now know that that's an option they can take and do a half day or a full
• 1:04:24
  day tour to learn a bit more about it if they're interested.
• 1:04:27
  And if they're not, then Harpie Ebel, Coyote Falls, Indigenous interactions, et cetera.
• 1:04:33
  and all the cool things to do in Georgetown now too.
• 1:04:36
  Okay, so let's wrap up our podcast with exactly that because I did say we'd get back to uh Main gateway in, main gateway out.
• 1:04:45
  A port is being developed to attract more boutique style cruising.
• 1:04:51
  I hope it stays at that.
• 1:04:52
  I'm not a fan of the big ships dropping off in any city, but that's obviously for the Guyanese and the government to decide.
• 1:04:59
  uh Most of your trip will be spent in the interior or should
• 1:05:05
  but you spent in the interior.
• 1:05:07
  So let's go back to Jane.
• 1:05:08
  How many days should someone allocate for Georgetown?
• 1:05:10
  And then Carla, what can you do in and around Georgetown?
• 1:05:14
  So day-wide, I would say uh three days, I think is probably a great time to go.
• 1:05:21
  know, a lot of people just come overnight and leave.
• 1:05:24
  But I think three days is really good, especially if you want to do a good food tour.
• 1:05:29
  There are some great food tours.
• 1:05:31
  I personally and I will say Wilderness did this with it took me on my first trip there.
• 1:05:37
  We did a pub crawl on a Sunday night at the waterfront.
• 1:05:44
  on the, em I just forgot the name of it, Carly.
• 1:05:48
  The Seawall, thank you.
• 1:05:49
  On the Seawall, which on Sunday nights, all of these vendors come out and, em but we did a whole, we had a chef take us around and go to his favorite spots on a Sunday night with
• 1:06:02
  all the locals who are, the families are out there, people on dates, and it is so much fun to do that.
• 1:06:11
  only a local would really know to do that.
• 1:06:14
  So again, we have to remember this was part of the British Empire.
• 1:06:17
  Yeah
• 1:06:20
  Don't forget we have the world's best rum, El Dorado.
• 1:06:25
  Oh, okay, that I didn't know.
• 1:06:29
  So Carla, beyond the pub crawls and the good food, which I have no doubt is on offer down there, what else does Georgetown and its surrounds offer?
• 1:06:40
  Yes.
• 1:06:41
  So I think one of the very nice things about Georgetown, which is why spending two to three days in the city is absolutely, I think, important is because it really gives you, I
• 1:06:52
  would say, really nice introduction or if you're ending the tour, the sense of this cultural melting pot that we have in Guyana.
• 1:07:01
  We have uh six main ethnic em races in Guyana.
• 1:07:06
  And you see all of that come to life through the food and history, et cetera.
• 1:07:12
  So in terms of filling your time, Jane talked about the Sunday afternoon going to the seawall to see that lively atmosphere, but also doing a market tour, I think really is
• 1:07:24
  something nice.
• 1:07:25
  You get to go to the market with a chef, you're sampling fruits and food along the way, street food style.
• 1:07:32
  ah And again, that's how I think you can truly uh
• 1:07:36
  truly understand the culture of a place to their food.
• 1:07:40
  And many times too, you also see that we're such a big world, but we're connected in so many ways.
• 1:07:45
  You know, for example, basil, which is known in North America, we call that married man folk in Guyana.
• 1:07:53
  So you see all these things, like there's so much connection.
• 1:07:56
  You get to sample different uh fruits.
• 1:08:00
  And then you also have the option of saying, you know, if you see something interested, you can tell a chef, you know, I want to try that.
• 1:08:07
  He goes back, he buys everything that you've selected in the market with him.
• 1:08:12
  He goes back to his home to prepare that meal for lunch.
• 1:08:17
  While you go off exploring the city, learning about the history, etc.
• 1:08:21
  After the city tour, you then go back to his place to have lunch at his home.
• 1:08:26
  And he actually refers to this as backyard.
• 1:08:28
  It's called Backyard Cafe.
• 1:08:30
  That's because it's actually in his backyard.
• 1:08:33
  It's not a fancy AC building.
• 1:08:37
  It's really in his home.
• 1:08:38
  you can again, to go home to another local.
• 1:08:42
  The other excursion too is we have three main rivers in Guyana.
• 1:08:47
  Demerara River is our main commercial port.
• 1:08:52
  So you get to see the city from a different angle.
• 1:08:55
  We have an
• 1:08:56
  an afternoon boat ride, which is a bit of, again, history with looking at a city from a different point of view.
• 1:09:03
  But you also get a bit of nature experience within that.
• 1:09:07
  And you also get to enjoy a lovely sunset at the end of the day over some drinks, Eldorado rum, etc.
• 1:09:14
  And you get to see the birds um roost at the end of the day.
• 1:09:17
  And that's a really, really nice way to end that day.
• 1:09:19
  um
• 1:09:21
  And the bird life was spectacular doing that.
• 1:09:24
  I was surprised how close you are to the city to see those kind of birds.
• 1:09:29
  Correct.
• 1:09:30
  And she talked about birding on that particular Demerara River sunset tour, you actually get to see the scarlet ibis.
• 1:09:39
  They're all in thousands roosting on a tree.
• 1:09:43
  The other excursion as well in the city that's really good is birding within the botanical gardens.
• 1:09:49
  It's a very early morning or afternoon um excursion as well.
• 1:09:53
  That's really nice.
• 1:09:54
  So for people that are into birding, there aren't many cities you can go to.
• 1:09:59
  and see over 200 species of bird in the middle of the city.
• 1:10:05
  And that's what the botanical gardens offer.
• 1:10:06
  And then you also have coastal birding um as well.
• 1:10:13
  Sorry.
• 1:10:13
  you can go to humanities.
• 1:10:16
  Yes.
• 1:10:17
  So.
• 1:10:18
  Yes.
• 1:10:19
  It would seem that the wildlife, we sort of, you know, generalized before 80 % is forest.
• 1:10:25
  It sounds like the wildlife has creeped right up to the coast and into Georgetown itself.
• 1:10:29
  So other than the modern day cultural interactions, pub crawls, local chefs, et cetera, you know, the historical aspects, you've got wildlife literally in the city.
• 1:10:42
  And I'd like to use a comparison here for someone looking to travel to Ghana and not skip Georgetown is in the early days of developing the South America product here at GoWay and
• 1:10:52
  in Peru, historically people would fly into Lima and get out of Lima really quickly.
• 1:10:56
  They thought it was yucky and scary and unsafe and that type of thing.
• 1:11:01
  And it never was.
• 1:11:02
  It was always very, very interesting.
• 1:11:03
  um And I've seen over the years how people have gone from just using Lima as the gateway in and out overnight to now spending two or three, four,
• 1:11:12
  five days there if you really want to get into it.
• 1:11:14
  So it sounds like Georgetown, as Jane mentioned earlier on, has that depth of things to see and do as well.
• 1:11:21
  All that is to say to our travel professionals out there, when you're building your itinerary, give two or three days to Georgetown for all the reasons that Carla and Jane
• 1:11:30
  have just mentioned.
• 1:11:30
  It shouldn't be used as literally your gateway in and out wholly.
• 1:11:35
  and solely.
• 1:11:36
  Before we wrap up, just some questions on some logistic stuff.
• 1:11:39
  I'll just throw these at Jane.
• 1:11:40
  um North Americans, Canadians, Americans, do they need a visa to visit Guyana?
• 1:11:47
  Okay.
• 1:11:48
  Carla, money.
• 1:11:50
  I know you have it.
• 1:11:51
  You've got a lot more coming with the oil and gas.
• 1:11:53
  What's the currency, ATMs, credit cards, I guess it's all, you use all that when they're down there.
• 1:11:59
  Yeah, Guiness is the Guiness dollars, the official uh banking note here.
• 1:12:04
  But we also accept uh US dollars and MasterCard visa uh are generally widely accepted.
• 1:12:12
  Amex, not so much.
• 1:12:15
  Yeah, that's not just with Guiana, that's almost everywhere in the world I find.
• 1:12:18
  I'm an Amics ground holder and I often run into that issue.
• 1:12:21
  um Health in respect to, as we've discussed, most of your trip will be the interior, very remote.
• 1:12:28
  If someone was to get ill or hurt themselves in the interior, getting them to medical uh facilities quickly and easily, I'm sure that's all in place in regards to light aircraft
• 1:12:38
  and all local hospitals, doctors.
• 1:12:41
  Yes, as I mentioned, there's a lot of development that are happening in the different parts of Guyana.
• 1:12:46
  So there are actually hospitals in a lot of these locations now.
• 1:12:50
  also, light aircrafts are available um to bring someone out of it absolutely requires that.
• 1:12:57
  Yeah, and I'm going to recommend people carry hydration fluid, know, just, you know, hydromate or one of those and have one or two of those a day if you're in the interior
• 1:13:06
  because it's very, it can get very hot.
• 1:13:09
  And if those of us who aren't used to that heat.
• 1:13:12
  Is it a dry heat or a humid heat?
• 1:13:13
  m
• 1:13:17
  I think it's too big year round.
• 1:13:18
  uh
• 1:13:21
  um We've mentioned or you ladies have mentioned when it comes to the lodges etc in the interior in particular either only one in one particular area or if there's a few there
• 1:13:30
  are still small capacity.
• 1:13:33
  I'll throw this one at Jane.
• 1:13:34
  uh Goway has a very large groups department.
• 1:13:37
  uh We have lots of birding groups etc etc.
• 1:13:41
  Guyana is an obvious destination for a lot of groups.
• 1:13:44
  You know painters, photographers, birders etc.
• 1:13:48
  If we have
• 1:13:49
  or someone comes to us with a group of 10 or more, maybe in the 20 mark, ah how well is Guiana geared to handle group travel outside of Georgetown?
• 1:13:59
  They can handle up to 10 or 20.
• 1:14:02
  going to, may have to, if 20, they're going to have to share a room.
• 1:14:06
  Okay then, and if the location works, they could maybe split them into two lodges.
• 1:14:13
  But again, if it's a one lodge situation, they're gonna have to look at, as you say, sharing.
• 1:14:18
  So on that note again, the question for Jane, for groups in particular, but in general, well, I know the answer is groups in particular, you should be booking a year, a year and
• 1:14:26
  a half ahead by its nature.
• 1:14:30
  In general for a couple traveling, three or four people traveling together.
• 1:14:34
  How far ahead do you recommend they book for Giana to get to space?
• 1:14:38
  Because I think it's going to come down to space particularly.
• 1:14:40
  Five years ago, I would have told you a month.
• 1:14:44
  Now it is everything has changed so much, Carlo.
• 1:14:48
  uh It's still things are booked up.
• 1:14:51
  Yeah, no, the lead time, would say six, still very much six to uh six to 10 months, I believe again, because of availability, you're looking at small accommodations.
• 1:15:02
  But you do have those, I would say last minute bookings, uh the month still does work for some last minute bookings.
• 1:15:10
  But if you're traveling in the peak season, then that's when it becomes difficult.
• 1:15:15
  Yeah, and if for fishing, if you want to go to Rewa, that can be up to a year to two years.
• 1:15:22
  Okay, so, Jan has fallen back into...
• 1:15:26
  will not fall back into has fallen into the category of a normal destination regards to availability as in you want to be looking at your six to eight months ahead to get the
• 1:15:36
  itinerary and or accommodation of your choice.
• 1:15:39
  If you can't look at that far ahead, there may be opportunities to find availability, but it'll be what is available, take it or leave it type situation.
• 1:15:47
  So that's a positive sign.
• 1:15:49
  And again, as Carla has mentioned, the country is working towards adding more availability.
• 1:15:54
  So hopefully that will.
• 1:15:55
  probably stay the same but you'll have obviously more choices and maybe with that one last thing I don't think it happens in Ghana itself I think it happens uh in French Ghana if
• 1:16:08
  some rocket person wanted to go down because for those who don't know there are a lot of rocket launches I think it's from French Ghana is that correct?
• 1:16:15
  time.
• 1:16:16
  I just was there.
• 1:16:17
  I just was there the day before the rocket launch uh in August.
• 1:16:22
  Yes, in front of Guiana there are lots of rocket launches.
• 1:16:25
  There's a rocket launch base down there.
• 1:16:26
  It's close to the equator.
• 1:16:28
  All of the different astronomical reasons.
• 1:16:35
  So Jane and or Carla, if someone wanted to go into Guiana and get across to French Suriname to witness a rocket launch, one, is that possible?
• 1:16:43
  Can you actually see them launch?
• 1:16:46
  And two, how do you go about doing that, working out the dates, et cetera?
• 1:16:50
  Is that us asking you when a rocket launch is happening and then building an itinerary to get you into a viewing point for that?
• 1:16:57
  So um yes is a simple answer, but also they don't release the dates very far in advance.
• 1:17:06
  That's the only challenge with that.
• 1:17:10
  Right, so that's very much, I wouldn't say hit and miss, but that's rather refined request if we get it.
• 1:17:16
  can work towards it, we can try and get it built for you.
• 1:17:20
  So it's doable, but it has parameters and caveats built around it.
• 1:17:26
  to particle seed launch.
• 1:17:29
  Yeah, and the Space Center though is very, very interesting.
• 1:17:32
  uh I spent a couple of hours there.
• 1:17:35
  Yes, very interesting.
• 1:17:36
  And also it's right by Devil's Island.
• 1:17:40
  Yeah, okay.
• 1:17:41
  which it's, mean, it's just basically the same town that they.
• 1:17:45
  So Devil's Eye, for those who may or may not know, that's the famous story of Papillon and where the French used to send their criminals.
• 1:17:54
  was pretty horrific, actually, what they did.
• 1:17:56
  So that's another issue.
• 1:17:57
  We're talking different country, of course.
• 1:17:58
  But on that note, ah our partners, Wilderness Explorers and Carla, you have an itinerary, I think it's called the Three Guianas, which takes you into obviously Guiana itself,
• 1:18:08
  French Guiana and Suriname.
• 1:18:09
  Is that right?
• 1:18:10
  Yes, it's actually called Discover the Hidden Guyanas, but it touches on all three countries, the highlights of all three.
• 1:18:18
  Okay, my suggestion is someone's looking at going down to that region, try and grab all three if you can.
• 1:18:24
  ah And this will lead into my last question to Jane.
• 1:18:28
  Let's go back to what our focus is, Guyana itself.
• 1:18:31
  What is a good length of time to spend in the country to get a best of?
• 1:18:36
  Is it a week, is it two weeks?
• 1:18:38
  Again, taking budget and time.
• 1:18:41
  So let's go unlimited budget, unlimited time, and then down to what is the standard time frame.
• 1:18:47
  Okay, budget, unlimited time, I'd say around two weeks.
• 1:18:52
  And that way you can really immerse yourself in some of the uh places you're not there one or two nights, you can spend three nights at a lodge to get in there.
• 1:19:03
  And then short amount of time, minimum, I think of 10 days.
• 1:19:06
  uh Yes, you can do a nice five day trip, which can be easy for Miami.
• 1:19:13
  to do that, but I mean, to really get a good feel, I'd say 10 days.
• 1:19:18
  You get a few days in Georgetown, you go out to Kitor, and then from there, you know, we've got quite a different lodges to go to the Rupa Nuni, stay on the savanna to see good
• 1:19:31
  wildlife.
• 1:19:32
  Yeah, and that's so that's like a best of.
• 1:19:35
  As we've already mentioned, you could do a fishing only trip, a birding trip, you could do a trekking trip.
• 1:19:42
  There are so many variations and options available.
• 1:19:46
  Okay, so let me ask Jane, is there anything else you'd to let our travel professional partners out there know about Giana?
• 1:19:55
  ah that the tourism board we are here to help you.
• 1:19:59
  Anything you want to know, our job is to help you.
• 1:20:03
  And that's of in the background of our...
• 1:20:06
  I have the German shepherd from hell.
• 1:20:09
  That's right.
• 1:20:11
  And Carlos, anything else you'd like to pass on, be it from your time as a tourist board representative to now private sector or as a local from Guiana.
• 1:20:21
  Yeah, I think just really wanted to share that Ghana is a really special destination and tourism uh is really helping communities, etc.
• 1:20:33
  um The infrastructure is still very rustic, but I would say choose to visit Ghana because your money really does go toward helping to build these communities and to build the
• 1:20:45
  economy.
• 1:20:46
  So just knowing that your money is going towards something really good.
• 1:20:52
  Yep, Iana is in that early stage of development, comparably speaking to its neighbors.
• 1:20:58
  uh They are in a really good position to learn from others mistakes.
• 1:21:04
  I think you've heard today that just naturally prior to the find in the oil and gas industry, but that's obviously going to help things that the development of the tourism
• 1:21:14
  ministry has all been very locally focused and based indigenous groups expanding their horizons.
• 1:21:20
  uh
• 1:21:22
  As Carlos mentioned, uh learning uptick on how to run uh a lodge, cetera, is increasing.
• 1:21:31
  The local economy is only getting wealthier through tourism, through its natural resource finds.
• 1:21:37
  The country will expand.
• 1:21:40
  It'll get better.
• 1:21:41
  It will be moved from the rustic up to the nice and probably into the luxurious role at some stage.
• 1:21:48
  The country has everything you need.
• 1:21:50
  You can see it now.
• 1:21:52
  see it at its rustic level, come back.
• 1:21:54
  And this is other thing too, like any country, you can go back once, twice, three times.
• 1:21:58
  Go in the next year or two and then go back in four or five years and see how it changes.
• 1:22:02
  But I suggest people go now that I suggest our travel partners, when someone comes to you with a request for South America, don't forget about Janna.
• 1:22:11
  It's like, it's as good as any other country around it.
• 1:22:14
  I think it's better in a lot of ways because it is much more natural, literally, I think spiritually in a whole lot of different ways.
• 1:22:21
  So,
• 1:22:23
  Don't ignore it.
• 1:22:24
  GoWay's been working with Wildlands Explorers for many, many years trying to get, again, uptake and traction on this destination as it fights from a marketing point of view with
• 1:22:33
  its bigger neighbors.
• 1:22:35
  think now is a good time.
• 1:22:37
  Well, it's always been a good time, but now is even a better time to get down there.
• 1:22:41
  The Tourist Board through Jane and, well, I almost said Carla, through Jane and Carla as our local office down there in Georgetown.
• 1:22:51
  are there to help you.
• 1:22:52
  have a couple of itineraries on our website, but again, as Go Way customizes everything, give us a call, tell us what your clients are interested in.
• 1:23:01
  We can take them anywhere from just being in Georgetown and doing, again, inverted commas, those not watching, civilization, all the way to Soft Adventure.
• 1:23:11
  Probably wouldn't recommend it to this extreme survival course off in the jungle.
• 1:23:16
  It's there if you want it.
• 1:23:19
  But I think you can see by that you have everything on hand in Giana.
• 1:23:24
  So on that note, I'd like to thank Carla for her time today coming to us from Georgetown and Jane coming to us.
• 1:23:30
  I think you said Jane from Atlanta in the US of A.
• 1:23:33
  Thank you ladies both for your time today.
• 1:23:35
  And as always to our travel partners out there, thank you for your time.
• 1:23:39
  We know how busy we are, busy you are, but we are too, busy you are, and we appreciate you giving us some of your time today.
• 1:23:45
  On that note, thank you very much.
• 1:23:47
  Our pleasure.
• 1:23:49
  Bye.
• 1:23:51
  Thanks, Dawn.
• 1:23:51
  uh