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Ridiculous Live: The Humor and the Heavy · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
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Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Hi, how are you.
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Speaker 1: I hope you're doing well. Hello to all all your
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Speaker 1: loved winds, all your friends. Hello to the one and
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Speaker 1: only super producer Max Williams. This is an intro to
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Speaker 1: something different because we did a live show for the
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Speaker 1: first time in years. It was so much fun. It
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Speaker 1: was kind of a live show. Does it count as
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Speaker 1: a live show? Oh? Yeah, there are people. There were
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Speaker 1: real life people there, and we were there in person. You,
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Speaker 1: myself and Eli and Diana from Ridiculous Romance, along with
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Speaker 1: Lauren Vogelbaum, our dear friend and colleague and host of
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Speaker 1: the amazing American Shadows on the Grim and Mild Network
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Speaker 1: of brain Stuff of Savor, along with Annie Reese. And
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Speaker 1: this is one of our favorite people in general. Who's
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Speaker 1: a fantastic job of moderating a panel we did about
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Speaker 1: I believe you came up with his name? Man? What
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Speaker 1: was it? The the humorists and the heavy Yeah, the
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Speaker 1: humor and the heavies. So, if you've heard our previous
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Speaker 1: episode or previous series where we were lucky enough to
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Speaker 1: have our friends Diane and Eli on the show. Their show,
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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Romance is delightful, but just like our show, they
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Speaker 1: run into some pretty heavy subjects. So we went Uh Noel,
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Speaker 1: You and I and uh Diana and Eli and Lauren
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Speaker 1: a couple of other folks went to podcast Movement in Nashville, Tennessee,
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Speaker 1: where we spoke with a crowd about how to how
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Speaker 1: to do right by these stories, these historical people, places
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Speaker 1: and events, and how not to diminish them when we
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Speaker 1: are telling these stories, but how to do it in
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Speaker 1: an accurate and approachable way. So it isn't as a
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Speaker 1: what did you call? You had a great phrase in
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Speaker 1: this one. I think it was like a slog or
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Speaker 1: a death march or something I can't remember. Man. That's
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Speaker 1: the thing though, right Ben, Like, I mean, some of
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Speaker 1: the topics that we discuss inevitably do have some kind
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Speaker 1: of heavier elements that I wouldn't say we're necessarily a
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Speaker 1: comedy podcast, you know, where we try to do our
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Speaker 1: best to approach this stuff with with lightheartedness and kind
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Speaker 1: of make it listenable and approachable. Um, we're definitely a
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Speaker 1: history podcast first, but we do have to be careful
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Speaker 1: not to either not the little or just to kind
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Speaker 1: of like give a sense of dismissiveness by being too
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Speaker 1: you know, lighthearted when things maybe you're a little heavy,
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Speaker 1: but also to balance those things. And I think Diane
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Speaker 1: and Eli, you know, approach ridiculous romance very similarly. And
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Speaker 1: we had a really great, very open conversation with a
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Speaker 1: great Q and A at the end at Podcast Movement,
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Speaker 1: and we thought it would be great to share with
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Speaker 1: you as is because we really enjoyed it and we
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Speaker 1: hope that you do too, And next time Max will
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Speaker 1: be there. Definitely. Yes, here it is folks, before you
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Speaker 1: get started, thank you so much for coming to this
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Speaker 1: panel today. Is everybody having a good time at Podcast Movement?
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Speaker 1: So far? Has everyone gotten lost? Like in the Jurassic
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Speaker 1: Park atrium at least once? Cool, twice, three times lost?
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Speaker 1: Is anybody here actually lost now? Because if so, I
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Speaker 1: will give directions. That's great at that. Yeah. The panel
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Speaker 1: that you're supposed to be in is called the Humor
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Speaker 1: and the Heavy explore serious subjects with finesse and empathy.
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Speaker 1: That sounds like I'm in the wrong place. You're our ringer,
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Speaker 1: he needs you? Uh so, Hi, I'm Lauren vog Obama.
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Speaker 1: I am your friendly neighborhood moderator. Um. The panel that
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Speaker 1: we are in is the thing that I just said.
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Speaker 1: Here with me on the stage today we have Ben Boland,
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Speaker 1: Noel Brown, Eli Banks, and Diana Brown no relation that
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Speaker 1: I know of, not for friends, um and uh. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: They are the hosts of Ridiculous History and Ridiculous Romance,
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Speaker 1: which are two podcasts. So it's part of it. It's
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Speaker 1: part of a whole ridiculous slate now at heart U
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Speaker 1: extended extended well good um uh and and and these
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Speaker 1: two shows explore, try to take bits of history that
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Speaker 1: are honestly ridiculous, um and and explore the y and
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Speaker 1: how of of of of what went down um. And
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Speaker 1: frequently it's very funny and frequently it's incredibly tragic um
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Speaker 1: often at the same time. UM. And So what they
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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about today, UM is just just their
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Speaker 1: their insight into how they handle that carefully and with
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Speaker 1: human empathy, but also keeping it keeping it light and funny, entertaining. UM.
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Speaker 1: So uh. I have some questions. Okay, all right, we
5:17
Speaker 1: go way into it. So y'all do often take a
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Speaker 1: humorous approach, but um, but you have to acknowledge those
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Speaker 1: serious uncomfortable realities that are part of the stories that
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Speaker 1: you're telling. Um, how how would you all describe the
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Speaker 1: process for how you handle that on air? So I
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Speaker 1: guess I would. I would kick us off by saying
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Speaker 1: one of the first things to think about is the
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Speaker 1: It's almost cliche, but in our opinion, when Nolan and
5:48
Speaker 1: I first started Ridiculous History, we decided from day one
5:52
Speaker 1: that the most important part of any show we ever do,
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Speaker 1: episode or podcast entire is going to be the audience.
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Speaker 1: And so, you know, we dumb puns are there a plenty,
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Speaker 1: you know, and and bits and riffing, but ultimately we
6:09
Speaker 1: want to serve the story and the audience by telling
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Speaker 1: the truth, even when it might feel uncomfortable. Uh and
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Speaker 1: and a lot of Honestly, when you think about it,
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Speaker 1: a lot of comedy exists in this sort of liminal
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Speaker 1: space between what makes us laugh and what makes us uncomfortable.
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Speaker 1: Laughter itself is often a reaction to things that people
6:33
Speaker 1: would rather not acknowledge. It's kind of funny. Actually. Is
6:37
Speaker 1: one thing you learned being a podcast there is you
6:39
Speaker 1: can't make everybody happy. Um. So oftentimes we will hedge
6:44
Speaker 1: a little bit or talk about how a practice of
6:46
Speaker 1: a certain era. Perhaps it's problematic and wouldn't fly today,
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Speaker 1: And we literally get kind of dumped on sometimes for
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Speaker 1: like trying to do that too hard maybe, But I
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Speaker 1: think we do it just hard enough, and it's important
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Speaker 1: to us to acknowledged the present and you know, the
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Speaker 1: norms and what's okay now and why this. I mean,
7:05
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of a good example, even like
7:07
Speaker 1: in the history of underwear for example, like how it's
7:10
Speaker 1: so based on this like weird patriarchal kind of idea
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Speaker 1: of beauty and like fashion and it was very like
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Speaker 1: the opposite of empowering for women. Um, and then it
7:19
Speaker 1: kind of you know, progressed from there and became like
7:22
Speaker 1: you know, Calvin Klein underwear models and all that. Oh
7:25
Speaker 1: and reading historically accurate quotations because people were, you know,
7:33
Speaker 1: way less diplomatic at times. How about y'all. I know
7:36
Speaker 1: it's something. One thing that's inituting different between our shows
7:39
Speaker 1: is we set a cut off historically very very arbitrary. Well,
7:43
Speaker 1: it wasn't entirely arbitrary. It was based around apartheide. We
7:46
Speaker 1: had an episode about like a really plucky guerrilla in
7:50
Speaker 1: the in the Johannesburg Zoo that like chased down a criminal. Um,
7:54
Speaker 1: and that was the focus of the story. But this
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Speaker 1: is a great example too. It was all surrounded by apartheid,
8:00
Speaker 1: which is obviously a historical event that is super tragic
8:03
Speaker 1: its own form of genocide. You could argue in some ways,
8:06
Speaker 1: but like we decide, Okay, this is a recent enough
8:09
Speaker 1: historical event and we really can't go much further back
8:13
Speaker 1: than this. So we sat there cut off in mid nineties.
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Speaker 1: But y'all, you don't really have that cut off. I
8:18
Speaker 1: think it's great because history is obviously being written every day.
8:21
Speaker 1: But um, with some of the more modern stuff that
8:23
Speaker 1: you guys do, how do you approach it, you know,
8:26
Speaker 1: in terms of keeping it light while talking about like
8:29
Speaker 1: heroin addicts that are murdering each other, like sitting Nancy
8:31
Speaker 1: for example. It's true, um, And and that's sort of
8:34
Speaker 1: you know, we've been leaning more historical because it's nice
8:37
Speaker 1: to have at least the full story of these people's lives.
8:39
Speaker 1: When we're talking about a romance, you know, we want
8:41
Speaker 1: to see the context of where they met and kind
8:43
Speaker 1: of the whole story of how it ended. Um. But
8:45
Speaker 1: we do get into some more modern stories while trying
8:49
Speaker 1: to dodge tabloid e stuff. You know, Um, we've done
8:54
Speaker 1: a couple of celebrities. Go ahead, Oh, I was just
8:56
Speaker 1: gonna say we were really steering clear of like a
8:58
Speaker 1: Hollywood insider e new you know, like tabloid e exploitative
9:03
Speaker 1: kind of feeling of if it's not got something, if
9:07
Speaker 1: it's just like look at these two weird like it's
9:10
Speaker 1: kind of it feels bad, you know what I mean.
9:12
Speaker 1: There's got to be a richness to it, Like, um,
9:14
Speaker 1: you know, we're not just going to peer inside people's
9:17
Speaker 1: current lives, you know, and pick them apart and and
9:21
Speaker 1: tell that story. We won't. We want some sort of
9:23
Speaker 1: richness out of it. Like when we, for example, did
9:26
Speaker 1: the Robert Downey Jr. And his wife's story, that was
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Speaker 1: what we were really talking about is addiction and uh
9:32
Speaker 1: and and how difficult that is. And we kind of
9:35
Speaker 1: used that fairly modern, sort of tabloidy kind of story
9:39
Speaker 1: to examine something I think a little deeper than that, hopefully. Yeah.
9:44
Speaker 1: I think you guys do do a great job, but yeah,
9:46
Speaker 1: they're better than us at um uh Eli and Diana
9:52
Speaker 1: there you're you're talking about these relationships from the past. Um,
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Speaker 1: are there any examples that you have for us of
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Speaker 1: of ones that are clearly misunderstood by people in these
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Speaker 1: are modern times. Well, I'll start with UM one. I
10:10
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting. We just did recently. That's uh,
10:13
Speaker 1: this story has really opened up only in the last
10:15
Speaker 1: couple of years, and that was Winston and Clementine Churchill.
10:18
Speaker 1: And um, that was full of challenges because Winston Churchill
10:23
Speaker 1: is a super complicated character. He did a lot of
10:26
Speaker 1: really great things and a lot of really horrible things,
10:28
Speaker 1: and um, but only in recent years of biography came
10:32
Speaker 1: out in or this author you know, went through all
10:37
Speaker 1: their personal letters and just found out that she was
10:40
Speaker 1: hugely instrumental in his rise to success and ultimately defeating
10:46
Speaker 1: the Nazis, which was great. And you know that a
10:50
Speaker 1: guy took credit for something a woman actually did. Yeah,
10:52
Speaker 1: I know, you know happen over and over again. It
10:57
Speaker 1: never happens, but this time it happens weird. So um.
11:01
Speaker 1: So that was one where you know, the the idea
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Speaker 1: of Clementine Churchill for so long was that she was
11:06
Speaker 1: very quiet and kind of just like stood by her
11:09
Speaker 1: man and I've never heard of her. I'm not joking.
11:12
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't see the movie, but I've not
11:14
Speaker 1: heard of Clementine Church. Yeah, I knew the exact moment. Yeah,
11:17
Speaker 1: I'm ashamed to do very little before we started researching
11:20
Speaker 1: and um and kind of learning that romance was something
11:23
Speaker 1: I don't think people are only beginning to understand it.
11:26
Speaker 1: So that was something that you know, we were happy
11:28
Speaker 1: to bring out to people. But then Arita, yeah, definitely
11:33
Speaker 1: we are. Like our second episode was about woman who
11:36
Speaker 1: married the Berlin Wall, and so we ended up like
11:39
Speaker 1: going married married Berlin Wall and so just throwing that
11:47
Speaker 1: out there. Um, we ended up getting really into objective sexuality,
11:51
Speaker 1: and we started talking about animalism and in all kinds
11:54
Speaker 1: of like just it went into a lot of different
11:57
Speaker 1: kind of rabbit holes. I as you could say, um,
12:00
Speaker 1: but it was I think was something was very misunderstood
12:03
Speaker 1: about them because they they as you as you got
12:06
Speaker 1: more and more into how they feel about it and
12:09
Speaker 1: how they expressed it and how how it's happening for
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Speaker 1: them and in real time, and and it was really
12:16
Speaker 1: kind of profound and it was powerful, and I was like,
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Speaker 1: I feel this romance happening, even though I can't enter it,
12:23
Speaker 1: I would I can't enter into that at all myself.
12:25
Speaker 1: But I was like, I like, I'm I have a
12:28
Speaker 1: little tear in my eye. I would watch this Pixar movie.
12:30
Speaker 1: I would I mean, you know, like and I would
12:33
Speaker 1: play the wall. Who would be the voice of the world?
12:36
Speaker 1: Can we go Tom Wait Christoph Waltz? Perhaps Christoph he
12:39
Speaker 1: used to go to German her song I Am Lonely
12:47
Speaker 1: Please Love Me. Yes. I would watch the movie. Well.
12:50
Speaker 1: I was really glad we did that episode first or early,
12:53
Speaker 1: because I think we approached it because it sounded funny,
12:56
Speaker 1: and that that as we dug into it, I think
13:00
Speaker 1: we really like just found a lot of empathy for
13:02
Speaker 1: these people and understanding and it really sort of set
13:05
Speaker 1: I think us in a direction on the show. It
13:06
Speaker 1: was like, we need to come at every subject with
13:08
Speaker 1: a hugely open mind. Um, and sometimes you know your
13:13
Speaker 1: mind is open and you learned something incredible and you
13:16
Speaker 1: you have a whole new appreciation, and sometimes you get
13:19
Speaker 1: like Sit and Nancy. I didn't know anything about them.
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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm really open to learn about learning
13:23
Speaker 1: one of these people. And I was injured. That was
13:25
Speaker 1: a very like, very dark story that was hard to
13:29
Speaker 1: but I think I think that's how you you do
13:32
Speaker 1: the line of humor and heavy is sort of remembering
13:35
Speaker 1: that history. It's very human. Everyone you're you're looking at
13:38
Speaker 1: is human. And even if there are a thousand years ago,
13:40
Speaker 1: four thousand years ago, ten years ago, we all have
13:44
Speaker 1: things that are I mean instincts that are just real.
13:47
Speaker 1: And if you can tap into that, you can you
13:49
Speaker 1: can take anything with respect, and you can tell that
13:52
Speaker 1: story with respect and still have a lot of fun
13:54
Speaker 1: with it without like punching down. I got it til
13:58
Speaker 1: this Winton as the wall like, of course, where are planning? Yes,
14:05
Speaker 1: she might be one of us right now? No, no, no no,
14:07
Speaker 1: she's amazing. Yes, this is all of us? Are Tilda Wins?
14:18
Speaker 1: Speaking of those human moments that are so important, how
14:21
Speaker 1: do you how do you find those and all of
14:24
Speaker 1: the stories that you pursue. I think that's a that's
14:27
Speaker 1: a question that applies to any podcast. I'd like to
14:31
Speaker 1: pull us in the audience because we are recording this live.
14:36
Speaker 1: This will be on our show later, so you are
14:40
Speaker 1: already part of the show now, uh. And I think
14:44
Speaker 1: we we have a lot of people at the movement
14:47
Speaker 1: today who are themselves podcasters, right, and you run into
14:51
Speaker 1: those moments where you say, why why am I telling
14:55
Speaker 1: this story? How do I convey this story differently? You know,
14:59
Speaker 1: what what is the difference between someone just reading a
15:03
Speaker 1: timeline that says so and so was born in eighteen
15:07
Speaker 1: nineteen and then in eighteen thirty four, you know, they
15:10
Speaker 1: invented um, they invented round what corn? They invented rounds
15:19
Speaker 1: corn or something like that. And then you go, you
15:22
Speaker 1: go through a timeline, you kind of lose the soul
15:24
Speaker 1: of it. Uh, Like Diana said, nobody is no life
15:29
Speaker 1: is one big game of telephone and long form improv
15:32
Speaker 1: No one's really sure how it's gonna end. You know,
15:35
Speaker 1: you just try to sort of yes and your way
15:37
Speaker 1: through it. And uh, what you find is that if
15:41
Speaker 1: you really look at these people, not as epic you know,
15:45
Speaker 1: entreges in a history textbook, what you find is that
15:48
Speaker 1: they too are rarely convinced that they are doing the
15:52
Speaker 1: right thing. They have quarrels. You know, Well, it's interesting
15:55
Speaker 1: to all depends on the source, right, Like you know,
15:58
Speaker 1: as you said, history is written by the the winners
16:00
Speaker 1: and all of that, So it certainly can have a
16:02
Speaker 1: spin to it and a slant to it. And I
16:04
Speaker 1: think The key too is reading from lots of different sources,
16:06
Speaker 1: lots of different perspectives, and also having our own perspective.
16:09
Speaker 1: Because there was a really great talk earlier with Charlemagne
16:11
Speaker 1: and uh, Jill Scott and our boss Connall and and
16:16
Speaker 1: Dolly of course, and I think what something Charlottage said
16:18
Speaker 1: that was totally correct is that podcasts are all about personality.
16:22
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of like a kind of statement,
16:24
Speaker 1: but it's about perspective, you know. It's like we anybody
16:27
Speaker 1: can tell the same story, but it's not gonna be
16:29
Speaker 1: the same story. It's all about who's telling it and
16:32
Speaker 1: how it's being told. And not to say that facts
16:34
Speaker 1: are going to change. What it's about the empathy and
16:36
Speaker 1: the humanness that you bring to it as an individual
16:39
Speaker 1: human person with a perspective, and that's how you connect,
16:41
Speaker 1: you know, with your audience, I think, which is something
16:44
Speaker 1: I think Eli and Diana do really well. Agreed, well,
16:47
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you are totally humans. Honestly, we have
16:51
Speaker 1: a little easier than you guys, because our subject matter
16:54
Speaker 1: is literally romance, So there is a very human element
16:58
Speaker 1: like built into every episode, even even when it's not
17:01
Speaker 1: a romance like the John lorraina Bobbitt story. You know
17:04
Speaker 1: that there's there's still a human romance of a kind.
17:07
Speaker 1: It is, right and in the beginning and they when
17:10
Speaker 1: they met, there was a very brief, beautiful moment where
17:14
Speaker 1: they were just totally enamored with each other and you know,
17:17
Speaker 1: went downhill from there, but very brief downhill into a
17:21
Speaker 1: bush behind. Yeah, that was great. This is the kind
17:30
Speaker 1: of stuff you can expect on episodes of ridiculous history
17:32
Speaker 1: and ridiculous Romance. But no, I think again, it's just
17:35
Speaker 1: it's kind of what you bring to the table. And
17:37
Speaker 1: I agree that that you guys do a really really
17:40
Speaker 1: great job of kind of like humanizing and just being
17:42
Speaker 1: empathetic and just like approaching things with kindness, you know,
17:45
Speaker 1: and not punching down. There's so many podcasts that are
17:48
Speaker 1: very inherently negative or mean spirited, and I like some
17:51
Speaker 1: of those a lot, but that's not what we do.
17:53
Speaker 1: We try to bring sort of a kindness and a
17:55
Speaker 1: thoughtfulness but also lightheartedness to some heavy topics. Yeah. Um,
18:00
Speaker 1: have there been any figures who who you've started looking
18:03
Speaker 1: into when you start realizing that they've just been completely misportrayed?
18:10
Speaker 1: D that's largely accurate. Um. Yeah, what a great question,
18:16
Speaker 1: because there are the distressing slash inspiring answer. You can
18:23
Speaker 1: decide whether this glass for you is half full or
18:25
Speaker 1: half empty. To be super cliche about it, is that a,
18:29
Speaker 1: if not a majority, a surprising and disturbing, disturbingly sizeable
18:36
Speaker 1: proportion of people of figures throughout history are in some
18:40
Speaker 1: way misportrayed and their misportrayed often because um, the way
18:46
Speaker 1: that they are taught to students. You know, if you're
18:49
Speaker 1: if you're not in grad school for James Joyce, you're
18:53
Speaker 1: probably not going to hear all the weird stuff James
18:56
Speaker 1: Joyce did. I mean, I'm gonna keep it kind of
18:59
Speaker 1: family friendly. But James Joyce was like not a beloved
19:02
Speaker 1: figure in his you know, his version of cheers, his
19:06
Speaker 1: his bars that he would hit up when he wasn't
19:09
Speaker 1: agonizing over Finnigan's wake or something, because he would do
19:12
Speaker 1: stuff where he had This is true. He had a
19:16
Speaker 1: tiny pair of women's Uh oh, we did the underwear episode.
19:20
Speaker 1: We should have mentioned this, I remember that story. It
19:24
Speaker 1: didn't make it in but um, he had a tiny
19:26
Speaker 1: pair of women's underwear that he would fit around his
19:30
Speaker 1: pointer in his middle finger finger skateboard. Yeah, like fingers exactly.
19:34
Speaker 1: And and so he was like people were when they
19:38
Speaker 1: saw him, they were instantly tired. Yeah, he would like
19:41
Speaker 1: walk up and he wouldn't know them, and he would
19:43
Speaker 1: be like, oh do do do do? Do Do do do?
19:46
Speaker 1: And people don't want to really know that about the
19:49
Speaker 1: guy who changed Western literature. I think it makes very
19:54
Speaker 1: happy to know that about the guy who changed Western literature.
19:57
Speaker 1: But that's that's again, that's a human moment right now,
20:01
Speaker 1: especially with some work as heavy and puzzled over as
20:04
Speaker 1: like some of his stuff. As you know, there's like
20:07
Speaker 1: literal puzzle box of a of a novel. I was
20:11
Speaker 1: a weird dude. Yeah, I love that. I'd say our
20:15
Speaker 1: biggest in that category is probably the Empress all Gablos. Yeah. Yeah,
20:20
Speaker 1: she was transgender Empress of Rome. And we know that
20:24
Speaker 1: because the documents of the time about her said she said,
20:28
Speaker 1: call me the Empress, call me his wife. That is
20:31
Speaker 1: what I want to be referred to as. And then
20:34
Speaker 1: for eighteen hundred years, most of the documents said he
20:39
Speaker 1: when they were talking about her, and um, so that
20:42
Speaker 1: you know, we of course that's a lot more modern
20:45
Speaker 1: discourse that we're able to kind of learn and examine that.
20:48
Speaker 1: But um, but I think it's something that is starting
20:52
Speaker 1: to change and and has been misrepresented through history. But
20:55
Speaker 1: we're you know, we can obviously look at it a
20:57
Speaker 1: different way now, but especially with things like Ancient Rome,
21:01
Speaker 1: where again the history is written by the winners, like
21:03
Speaker 1: you have perspectives where it could be like very belittling
21:07
Speaker 1: to someone like that, and you'll see certain historians that
21:11
Speaker 1: clearly have a slant and had an issue with this person. Yes,
21:13
Speaker 1: that was something that was something that really came clear
21:16
Speaker 1: researching that episode, because it was like, Okay, well at
21:19
Speaker 1: the time they wrote this, but it could have been
21:21
Speaker 1: a job they were trying to make them look bad
21:24
Speaker 1: or something, or they erased from history people that they
21:28
Speaker 1: were just like, actually, that your punishment. We're just going
21:30
Speaker 1: to just scratch you out the record for a minute,
21:32
Speaker 1: like for four to tend to however many years, and
21:35
Speaker 1: then you have to go back and kind of be like, okay,
21:37
Speaker 1: So this could be hearsay, it could be gossip. It
21:39
Speaker 1: could be a story somebody told somebody else because they
21:41
Speaker 1: wanted to look cool, you know, like, you know, you're
21:44
Speaker 1: not sure, and it's that's kind of interesting too to
21:47
Speaker 1: see that pettiness if you know history, Yeah, we've never
21:54
Speaker 1: stopped the ship. And because it's you know, at least
21:58
Speaker 1: according to the records we do have, because she was
22:00
Speaker 1: a terrible person, you know, like murdered a lot of people.
22:04
Speaker 1: Um So yeah, it's hard to walk that one back,
22:07
Speaker 1: you know, but but I think you know, one thing
22:10
Speaker 1: we could take away from that question is something that
22:13
Speaker 1: applies to us today, which is, um often, the way
22:17
Speaker 1: history is taught trends toward telling us one thing about
22:24
Speaker 1: a person, and it may be the most important thing
22:27
Speaker 1: they've ever done, and it may have fundamentally, you know,
22:30
Speaker 1: changed our experience living today. But that wasn't the only
22:33
Speaker 1: thing they did. Like the current Dali Lama true story,
22:36
Speaker 1: super into watches. He like collects watches. He's he's all
22:39
Speaker 1: about it, and he doesn't, I guess really talk about
22:43
Speaker 1: it like watches. I think he's like I do, and
22:47
Speaker 1: it would be super cool. But but everybody like you're
22:51
Speaker 1: you're here, you're here today and thank you for being here.
22:54
Speaker 1: And you you right now are the version of you
22:58
Speaker 1: that has gone to meet up about podcasts. But you're
23:02
Speaker 1: also someone's kid. You may have children of your own,
23:06
Speaker 1: You probably have like a high school friend that thinks
23:10
Speaker 1: of you as a totally different version of you, and
23:13
Speaker 1: people throughout history have that too. Maybe not the high
23:16
Speaker 1: school things, but you know, you get so much of history,
23:18
Speaker 1: especially like armschair, like pop history is is inherently reductive.
23:22
Speaker 1: It kind of has to be. It's really impossible or
23:25
Speaker 1: you know, unless you're Malcolm Gladwell or whoever that guy's
23:28
Speaker 1: that does the five hour History podcast, Carlin Carlin. Yeah,
23:32
Speaker 1: I can't damn that, I can't do it. I'm sure
23:36
Speaker 1: it's great. I'm sure it's for somebody, but it's not
23:38
Speaker 1: for me, and I'm okay with that. But um, I
23:43
Speaker 1: think you can handle the short form versions still with
23:47
Speaker 1: respect and not being so reductive that you're you know,
23:51
Speaker 1: creating a super one dimensional picture of of of one
23:53
Speaker 1: of these figures. And this is this is something I
23:56
Speaker 1: want to shout out with that that I love that
23:59
Speaker 1: you all do and ridiculous romance. You you do what
24:03
Speaker 1: I think good storytellers should do, which is you embrace
24:08
Speaker 1: those tangents. You know, like when people people used to
24:12
Speaker 1: talk about Nikola Tesla right, and they would say, uh,
24:15
Speaker 1: you know, they would have like the five to six
24:17
Speaker 1: talking points and then somebody did the research and said, oh,
24:21
Speaker 1: actually he got real deep with this pigeon toward the
24:25
Speaker 1: end of his life and it was like weirdly wholesome.
24:28
Speaker 1: And then that became one of those points. And I also,
24:31
Speaker 1: you know, Lauren Vogel Bomb moderating today has a show
24:35
Speaker 1: that she does, one of her many shows called Savor,
24:38
Speaker 1: which is ostensibly about food. Uh and catch me if
24:43
Speaker 1: I missed speaking here, but it's never okay, well, it's
24:47
Speaker 1: never just about food. I feel like because it goes
24:50
Speaker 1: into culture, it goes into folk glory, goes into the
24:54
Speaker 1: sociology of the thing, and if you really want to
24:56
Speaker 1: understand a person and event a cons sept than, like
25:01
Speaker 1: Noel said, you need to look at all the differing,
25:03
Speaker 1: disagreeing sources, and then you need to look at all
25:06
Speaker 1: the things around it because context is crucial to the plot. Yeah, um,
25:14
Speaker 1: thank you for the shout out. I want to go
25:17
Speaker 1: back to this is partially what what what you guys
25:19
Speaker 1: are talking about about sensitivity, but also partially what um
25:22
Speaker 1: what y'all were talking about about wanting to avoid being exploitative? Exploitative?
25:28
Speaker 1: What's just the word? Does anyone hear you? Great? Um,
25:34
Speaker 1: I was an English manajor um uh about about trying
25:38
Speaker 1: not to be that thing. Um, but still like, like
25:42
Speaker 1: you guys do funny podcasts like funny as part of
25:45
Speaker 1: the sticks, So like, how do you how do you
25:47
Speaker 1: kind of um have fun without making fun? I like
25:51
Speaker 1: what Diana said punching down. That's I mean, that's a
25:56
Speaker 1: huge ruling comedy in general, is that you know how
25:58
Speaker 1: much power is in the equation. That's who you make
26:01
Speaker 1: fun of is the one who has all the power
26:03
Speaker 1: in this situation. And the people who don't, you don't
26:05
Speaker 1: make fun of them. They got enough to deal with. So, um,
26:09
Speaker 1: I think that's definitely a uh what's that word? You know? Yeah,
26:17
Speaker 1: you found it? Well, no, well, I was just gonna
26:21
Speaker 1: say it's you know, we like our show We're Married
26:26
Speaker 1: White Cis had a renormative couple. Like, there's a lot
26:29
Speaker 1: of down to punch and it's but it's also not
26:32
Speaker 1: difficult to find completely different things to laugh about. Like
26:35
Speaker 1: we talked about, um, the Lonely Hearts killers. Yeah, right,
26:40
Speaker 1: these are two people who met in a catalog in
26:43
Speaker 1: the fifties newspaper ads in the fifties and uh, and
26:47
Speaker 1: then got together and murdered a bunch of people. And
26:50
Speaker 1: there's not a lot funny about that. Um, I don't
26:53
Speaker 1: know what we did. I shouldn't even brought up because
26:54
Speaker 1: I can't remember what we did find funny about that.
26:57
Speaker 1: That's the thing, though, You don't have to make it
26:59
Speaker 1: into a joke or write into a bit it again,
27:01
Speaker 1: like I was saying, it's all about your perspective and
27:03
Speaker 1: the humans will let you approach something heavy. You're not
27:06
Speaker 1: going to tell a doom and gloom I call it
27:08
Speaker 1: misery porn story. You're gonna find something to just be
27:12
Speaker 1: yourselves around it. It's really the key, you know. You
27:15
Speaker 1: don't have to convert it into some kind of like
27:17
Speaker 1: stand up routine. That's not what we do at all.
27:19
Speaker 1: We make fun of ourselves exactly the circumstances they're in.
27:25
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that era is was there was
27:29
Speaker 1: so much ridiculousness happening, happening around the circumstances that led
27:33
Speaker 1: to their relationship, that led to what they were doing
27:34
Speaker 1: to other people in their lives who you know, allowed
27:37
Speaker 1: them to behave like this, or it's just absurd and
27:39
Speaker 1: you can kind of laugh at that, I think, or
27:41
Speaker 1: the joke the joke is also can be what my
27:44
Speaker 1: reaction to this or how I would how I would
27:46
Speaker 1: have reacted, and how differently this person did, you know
27:49
Speaker 1: what I mean. That's the joke becomes like if it
27:52
Speaker 1: were me, I would have sold him up the you know,
27:54
Speaker 1: it would have been a totally difference. And then you
27:56
Speaker 1: have a good time and then let me get back
27:57
Speaker 1: to the story, which is very tragic, and we're going
28:00
Speaker 1: back to the story now. I think that's an important
28:02
Speaker 1: way to connect with your audience too, is because they're
28:04
Speaker 1: thinking that themselves, and then you're acting as a stand
28:08
Speaker 1: in for them as well and kind of inserting yourself
28:10
Speaker 1: into the narrative. And I think that's something that we've
28:12
Speaker 1: learned and we get the most outreach about. Is like
28:15
Speaker 1: I just like hanging out and like, you know, you
28:17
Speaker 1: guys ask the questions that occurred to me as they
28:19
Speaker 1: occurred to me, And I think that's a real you know,
28:22
Speaker 1: it's sort of intuitive, but it is something you learned
28:24
Speaker 1: to kind of lean into over time. You know. Yeah,
28:27
Speaker 1: that's so great, Yeah, what would you do in that situation?
28:30
Speaker 1: That's why people, uh, that's why people watch horror films, right,
28:35
Speaker 1: because there's something too to knowing your own perspective on
28:39
Speaker 1: there and saying like, yeah, don't go in the cabin,
28:43
Speaker 1: you know, and you're looking around at other people in
28:46
Speaker 1: the theater and they're like, please stop talking. You're like,
28:49
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think that's it. I think that's a
28:52
Speaker 1: huge point. Um that that I love. I love to
28:57
Speaker 1: hear in podcast we're just in conversation because really you're
29:00
Speaker 1: exercising empathy by assuming that perspective. And also just the
29:04
Speaker 1: last thing is like we are trying to have you
29:06
Speaker 1: walk away with having learned a thing a little bit
29:09
Speaker 1: at least, you know, um, something that you can remember,
29:12
Speaker 1: and whether you've learned from the experiences of others historically,
29:15
Speaker 1: or it's just a little, you know, thing you can
29:17
Speaker 1: bring up at parties and tell us weird story about,
29:20
Speaker 1: you know, the married couple that went on a killing spree. Um,
29:24
Speaker 1: that's a good, good party fodder. But sure, no, I'm
29:26
Speaker 1: just saying like, that's a big part of it too.
29:28
Speaker 1: As we want to make people are walking away having
29:31
Speaker 1: learned something, having been entertained, and having felt some kind
29:34
Speaker 1: of connection. I guess so as you're as you're talking
29:44
Speaker 1: through some of these subjects that that do get into
29:47
Speaker 1: deep weird places. Has there ever been a moment where
29:51
Speaker 1: you felt like ethically or morally obligated to tell a
29:56
Speaker 1: particular part of the story, or to tell a particular
29:58
Speaker 1: part of it a particular way. Yes. Yeah. You can't
30:02
Speaker 1: do a heartwarming story about a guerrilla in South Africa
30:06
Speaker 1: in the ninety nineties and not talk about apartheime. That
30:10
Speaker 1: was a big deal. You cannot not do. That was
30:12
Speaker 1: sort of the wake up moment for us. We were like, oh,
30:14
Speaker 1: we kind of have to figure out how to do
30:16
Speaker 1: the thing that we're talking about today, because that was
30:18
Speaker 1: relatively early on in the show's life, and that's when
30:21
Speaker 1: we realized we had to talk about the surrounding circumstances
30:24
Speaker 1: of this ultimately heartwarming story. To make the heartwarming bit payoff,
30:28
Speaker 1: you had to explain the like tragedy surrounding this whole thing.
30:32
Speaker 1: This guerrilla, by the way, became this rallying figure kind
30:37
Speaker 1: of around um which people just kind of like almost
30:40
Speaker 1: this revolutionary figure, you know, during apartheid when all of
30:43
Speaker 1: this horrible stuff was happening, or if you like, talk
30:45
Speaker 1: about silly things that in retrospect seems silly from earlier
30:51
Speaker 1: eras of humanity. You know, you talk about, um, what's
30:54
Speaker 1: like one of those old songs like the origin of
30:56
Speaker 1: the song Ring around the Rosy, you know what I mean?
31:00
Speaker 1: That gets dark pretty quickly, and it's kind of irresponsible,
31:04
Speaker 1: or at the very least, it's somewhat unethical or misleading
31:07
Speaker 1: if if you are telling that story and you're not
31:13
Speaker 1: also saying this might seem cute. See now, but here's
31:17
Speaker 1: why it happened. Because people in the past, we're not unintelligent.
31:21
Speaker 1: They were working with what they had, you know, and
31:24
Speaker 1: you talk about like, um, there's a fantastic podcast called
31:27
Speaker 1: Sawbones right which talks about what we would call medical quackery, right,
31:32
Speaker 1: And what really that is is it's not a bunch
31:34
Speaker 1: of people waking up and going, you know, I'm gonna
31:37
Speaker 1: get I'm gonna get real weird with it today. I'm
31:40
Speaker 1: just gonna like, yeah, I'm gonna like prescribe walking wider
31:46
Speaker 1: shins around an included moon and then uh slapping people
31:50
Speaker 1: with beats that came from somewhere. You know, Like people
31:54
Speaker 1: were thinking through a process the best they could, and
31:57
Speaker 1: that's the empathy we have to have. They did not
32:00
Speaker 1: have the advantages that people living now have now for sure, well, uh,
32:07
Speaker 1: one of I'm kind of thinking of two or three
32:11
Speaker 1: actually this you know, you guys mentioned apartheid, and we
32:13
Speaker 1: did the story about Seret sit Comma and Ruth Williams,
32:17
Speaker 1: and that was an interracial couple that they uh married
32:21
Speaker 1: in what was Beshawana Land at the time, later became Botswana.
32:24
Speaker 1: Actually because of their marriage and um and apartheid, you know,
32:29
Speaker 1: forced them, even though it was happening in another place
32:31
Speaker 1: in South Africa, their influence on England and trade deals
32:34
Speaker 1: and everything got England to force them at in x
32:37
Speaker 1: into exile out of their own country. UM. So you know, similarly,
32:42
Speaker 1: we had to kind of address apartheid in that episode.
32:44
Speaker 1: That ended up being a really important contextual part of
32:46
Speaker 1: their story. Um. Other times it's less contextual. But we
32:50
Speaker 1: did the story of um Bert and Linda Poogash, who,
32:56
Speaker 1: uh it's an insane story. It's our next episode to
32:59
Speaker 1: come out. And this guy hired uh some some thugs
33:04
Speaker 1: to attack this woman who didn't want to date him anymore,
33:06
Speaker 1: and they threw acid in her face and blinded her.
33:09
Speaker 1: And when he got out of prison twelve years later,
33:11
Speaker 1: they got married and we're happily married for the rest
33:15
Speaker 1: of their life. Um, and it's a whole story, but
33:19
Speaker 1: within that, he was in Attica Prison during the Attica
33:23
Speaker 1: Prison riots and it was only very tangentially involved. And
33:27
Speaker 1: I didn't know a lot about the Attica Prison riots
33:30
Speaker 1: when I was doing the research, and I learned about
33:32
Speaker 1: them and said, it's insane that I haven't ever heard
33:34
Speaker 1: of this. Watched Afternoon as part of your research. I I, well,
33:38
Speaker 1: we need to because we're gonna do that couple too.
33:39
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it since I was a kid. But
33:42
Speaker 1: that was where it wasn't necessarily contextual to a story,
33:45
Speaker 1: but I was like, I can't not take this opportunity
33:48
Speaker 1: to make people aware of this thing. So it almost
33:50
Speaker 1: turned into a ten part series just about that had
33:55
Speaker 1: but but couldn't walk away without bringing it up. It
33:58
Speaker 1: just seemed too important. Yeah. I think when we did
34:01
Speaker 1: um the sixteenth century poets Shah Hussain and Madu Law,
34:06
Speaker 1: that was definitely one where I was like, Okay, it
34:08
Speaker 1: feels important to explain not only his his uh, the
34:12
Speaker 1: sect of religion that he was practicing, not only that,
34:16
Speaker 1: areas of feelings currently about gay marriage or gay relationships,
34:21
Speaker 1: and also all the the political like stuff with Kashmir
34:26
Speaker 1: and the line of control and all this stuff. Because
34:28
Speaker 1: their relationship was a Hindu and a Muslim living in harmony.
34:31
Speaker 1: So their relationship is still considered like a symbol of
34:36
Speaker 1: universal harmony for them and and and true like spiritual connection.
34:42
Speaker 1: And so some some of them are like, they were
34:44
Speaker 1: just spiritual, they were not lovers. It was not gay,
34:47
Speaker 1: you know whatever. And then a lot of people are like,
34:49
Speaker 1: they know that. I think they were gay. They had
34:51
Speaker 1: they had a loving gay relationship, you know whatever. So
34:54
Speaker 1: it was really interesting to dive into that and feel
34:57
Speaker 1: it really felt important to have all that contact around
35:00
Speaker 1: their relationship because otherwise it wasn't as powerful. You didn't
35:05
Speaker 1: see the impact. Why we chose it, you know, it
35:08
Speaker 1: was like this, this has a lot, you know, it
35:10
Speaker 1: was deep. So, yeah, we get in those rabbit holes.
35:13
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're good rabbit holes and sometimes they're not helpful. Yeah,
35:17
Speaker 1: you find out at the bottom. I think then you're
35:20
Speaker 1: trapped in a rabbit hole. Yeah, how do you climb out?
35:24
Speaker 1: I think that's going to be a question at some point. Um.
35:28
Speaker 1: Has there has there ever been a story that as
35:31
Speaker 1: you were getting into it, you were like Oh, this
35:33
Speaker 1: is actually too much and I need to put it
35:35
Speaker 1: down and walk away. Have you ever walked away from
35:37
Speaker 1: a story? Uh? Well, yeah, there's a couple that come
35:43
Speaker 1: to mind. One. Uh. We early on said oh, we
35:47
Speaker 1: should do Marilyn Monroe story and we started doing some
35:50
Speaker 1: research on that and we were like, you know what,
35:52
Speaker 1: this is really difficult and sad story, Like there's not
35:57
Speaker 1: we we can't have fun with this. We it doesn't
35:59
Speaker 1: fit our show because it's totally inappropriate to be funny
36:03
Speaker 1: about much of any of it. So that was one
36:05
Speaker 1: where we've we may one day tackle it, but I
36:08
Speaker 1: think so far we've decided it's not it's not right
36:11
Speaker 1: for our show. Um. And then cha Hussain to mad Hulal.
36:15
Speaker 1: We actually re recorded that episode. It was it was
36:18
Speaker 1: like our third episodes kind of yeah, kind of learned
36:23
Speaker 1: about start and kind of realized you were over. We
36:28
Speaker 1: were being so reverent and you know, because this was
36:31
Speaker 1: a totally different culture than ours and we really wanted
36:33
Speaker 1: to be respectful and stuff, and I think we went
36:35
Speaker 1: a little too far and it wasn't fun. It was
36:37
Speaker 1: it was a little too quiet and and and calm,
36:40
Speaker 1: and it didn't have a lot of energy timelineing. Like
36:42
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, yea very were born. They went to
36:45
Speaker 1: a thing, they did a stuff and it was over,
36:47
Speaker 1: you know, and it was like, yeah, this isn't it.
36:50
Speaker 1: We so we like, let's just empty our minds and
36:53
Speaker 1: just redo it without any like serious notes. We were
36:56
Speaker 1: just like, let's just have more fun with it, have
36:58
Speaker 1: a good time with it, tell this story, keep the aspect,
37:00
Speaker 1: and and it turned out great. The second time definitely
37:02
Speaker 1: was much. That's a really good I don't I don't
37:06
Speaker 1: know if we've walked away from well there was that was.
37:08
Speaker 1: We also have a full disclosure. We have an amazing
37:11
Speaker 1: research is just in game who helps us, you know,
37:14
Speaker 1: do kind of like bullet points and pull from different
37:17
Speaker 1: sources and helps pick topics. You know, because Benn and
37:20
Speaker 1: I also do another show called Stuff. They don't want
37:22
Speaker 1: you to know that we five days a week. Um,
37:24
Speaker 1: we do two episodes of Ridiculous History every week. So
37:26
Speaker 1: it's nice to have a little bit of research help.
37:28
Speaker 1: But we you know, dig in ourselves as well and
37:31
Speaker 1: contribute and it's sort of a collaborative process. But I
37:33
Speaker 1: think there were a few that he pulled that we
37:36
Speaker 1: maybe never did because they there was one that was
37:39
Speaker 1: about like some German folk tales around Christmas or something
37:44
Speaker 1: like that. It was so like just grim and dark
37:48
Speaker 1: and like kind of depressing and like ring around the
37:51
Speaker 1: posy moment. It really was, And it was like, uh,
37:53
Speaker 1: I think we were just like, you know, well, let's
37:55
Speaker 1: just give that one a miss. We I guess you're right.
37:57
Speaker 1: We did walk away from We did walk away from
38:02
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper. Uh, not to be too precious about it.
38:06
Speaker 1: There's a lot of I mean, there's a lot of
38:07
Speaker 1: excellent scholarship on this is probably one of the most
38:11
Speaker 1: well documented serial murders in in in this era. That's
38:16
Speaker 1: for a different show, though it is for a different show.
38:19
Speaker 1: And then also you know, it's, um, we didn't want
38:23
Speaker 1: to be precious about it, but it's kind of callous
38:26
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, these people's lives were horrible, they
38:29
Speaker 1: died in horrible ways. What do you do net waca
38:31
Speaker 1: waca waka. That's terrible, you know, And so we we've
38:35
Speaker 1: I think over time, uh me and this guy have
38:39
Speaker 1: developed sort of a spidy sense for that kind of
38:43
Speaker 1: for that kind of thing, because you know, you you
38:47
Speaker 1: earn the trust the report of again, the most important
38:52
Speaker 1: part of the show the person listening, and they're extending
38:56
Speaker 1: what I would argue as the most valuable currency of
38:59
Speaker 1: this time, which is time. Right, your personal time in
39:04
Speaker 1: the world of ubiquitous, never ending information, make it worth
39:07
Speaker 1: it and if there if you're if someone's trusting us
39:10
Speaker 1: to UH, to properly convey a story and to travel
39:14
Speaker 1: along with us for a few minutes, then we don't
39:17
Speaker 1: want to trick them. That's like hopping into an uber
39:20
Speaker 1: to go down the street and you're like, holy why
39:23
Speaker 1: are we going to Montana now? And the double bactor.
39:26
Speaker 1: That's really totally true what we said earlier about it's fine,
39:30
Speaker 1: you can speak French all you want. Um. It is
39:33
Speaker 1: about that connection with the audience and you can get
39:36
Speaker 1: the story we didn't. We don't have like monopoly on
39:39
Speaker 1: weird history stories. There's other podcasts have done the same
39:42
Speaker 1: story as we've done. We have a sister podcast called
39:44
Speaker 1: UH Stuff You Miss in History Classes. We had initially fantastic.
39:47
Speaker 1: We initially were like trying really hard not to cover
39:50
Speaker 1: anything that they've covered, but then we realized, like it
39:53
Speaker 1: we it's different, it doesn't matter. It is our perspective,
39:55
Speaker 1: and it's going even if someone enjoys that show, they
39:58
Speaker 1: can hear us doing the same episode topic and it
40:01
Speaker 1: would be a completely different version of it. Even if,
40:02
Speaker 1: like the facts were all true. It's like a different
40:05
Speaker 1: version of that story that could probably be valuable or
40:08
Speaker 1: at least entertaining in a different way or comforting in
40:10
Speaker 1: a different way. May no one owns this story, and
40:13
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. What we want to make sure
40:16
Speaker 1: we continue to do is approach everything we do with
40:18
Speaker 1: that empathy and connectedness with the audience so that people
40:21
Speaker 1: continue to hang out, you know. Uh yeah cool. Speaking
40:27
Speaker 1: of the audience, high we were wondering if y'all had
40:29
Speaker 1: any questions for us. There's a microphone that's going to
40:32
Speaker 1: be coming around. I'm sure you're used to this by now.
40:34
Speaker 1: We're recording for virtual so be clear. Okay, please Hi, UM,
40:46
Speaker 1: that's loud. Don't worry. My name is Colleen, and my
40:52
Speaker 1: podcast is not almost there. It's not funny, but it's
40:56
Speaker 1: um kind of like uplifting, motivational inspiration. And there's been
41:02
Speaker 1: a couple of moments. We had this guest and we
41:04
Speaker 1: like plan for it, do our research everything like that. UM,
41:08
Speaker 1: and this one guest whose father had passed away, which
41:10
Speaker 1: was a pivotal moment in his life, and he's done
41:13
Speaker 1: countless um interviews about it, spoken about it. But on
41:17
Speaker 1: our podcast, he got really emotional and it was like
41:23
Speaker 1: deer in the headlights, like I don't know how to
41:25
Speaker 1: respond to this emotion right now, and like it was
41:29
Speaker 1: the worst transition. Like on YouTube we even got this
41:31
Speaker 1: comment that was like good content, but if you missed
41:35
Speaker 1: that moment, like right away, the audience like commented on it.
41:38
Speaker 1: So I don't know if you have any advice on
41:41
Speaker 1: even in all your prep, like you get to a
41:44
Speaker 1: moment while you're recording that you're that it gets like
41:47
Speaker 1: super emotional, Like how do you comfortably live in that
41:51
Speaker 1: emotional moment and then bring it out to even if
41:54
Speaker 1: it's not humor, but it's like, uh, to a higher place. Well,
41:58
Speaker 1: I'm I can give an example, not from this show
42:00
Speaker 1: at all. We all work on lots of different stuff
42:02
Speaker 1: for been and in particular and Lauren and I did
42:05
Speaker 1: a true crime show called Happy Face that was about
42:07
Speaker 1: the father. It was about the daughter of a infamous
42:11
Speaker 1: serial killer, and she got very emotional talking about finding
42:16
Speaker 1: out about her father being this rapist murderer. You know,
42:19
Speaker 1: secret life kind of guy, and she cried a lot,
42:22
Speaker 1: and we had to walk the line of like are
42:25
Speaker 1: we doing service to her story by using these clips
42:29
Speaker 1: or is it exploitive to her? And she's obviously part
42:32
Speaker 1: of this, she's an executive producer on the project, so
42:34
Speaker 1: she was very much open to whatever we wanted to
42:37
Speaker 1: do and had like cut if she wanted it gone.
42:39
Speaker 1: She was fine with whatever we wanted to use, but
42:41
Speaker 1: we had a you know, I think obligation to ourselves
42:44
Speaker 1: and the listeners to not overplay that hand and to
42:47
Speaker 1: only use it in a way that served the story
42:50
Speaker 1: and served the narrative and like the emotion of her
42:54
Speaker 1: you know, revelation kind of So that makes I think
42:57
Speaker 1: it's like something you have to kind of like feel
42:59
Speaker 1: out in the moment men. And it's certainly different for
43:01
Speaker 1: a conversational show than it might be for a heavy
43:04
Speaker 1: production that type show. I would I would say, um, Holly,
43:08
Speaker 1: in terms of nuts and bolts, with those kinds of interviews,
43:13
Speaker 1: you are, as the interviewer, you are going to find
43:17
Speaker 1: yourself being the object of stability in this conversation about
43:23
Speaker 1: these things that have happened, So everything can change and
43:29
Speaker 1: be perfect and just so in post in the editing room, right.
43:33
Speaker 1: But when you are with that person in that moment,
43:36
Speaker 1: one of the most important things is, um, you don't
43:39
Speaker 1: you shouldn't feel like you have to rush it. Silence
43:41
Speaker 1: can always be cut right, and you shouldn't feel like, Okay,
43:46
Speaker 1: we need to wrap it up because often psychologically for people, UM,
43:50
Speaker 1: when you're remembering something, you are experiencing it again, right,
43:55
Speaker 1: And so it's incredibly crucial. I would say to first
43:59
Speaker 1: if you know that kind of stuff is if you're
44:02
Speaker 1: going to go into those waters Bacon for that interview,
44:06
Speaker 1: at least um, at least fifty more time than you're planning.
44:11
Speaker 1: So if it's if you're like we're gonna talk for
44:13
Speaker 1: an hour, be ready to go for an hour and
44:15
Speaker 1: a half or two hours. Make sure that you don't
44:19
Speaker 1: leave them in that moment you know, and and you
44:22
Speaker 1: can you can stay with them. It's totally fine to say, hey,
44:25
Speaker 1: do you want to take a break, right, and we'll
44:28
Speaker 1: you know, we will come back intend um. But when
44:31
Speaker 1: you say you know, we'll come back, intend what you're
44:33
Speaker 1: really saying and what they're feeling, even if it's unconscious,
44:36
Speaker 1: is this person is not going to leave me alone.
44:39
Speaker 1: They're not going to run away from this. And then
44:42
Speaker 1: that once you once you kind of unlock that and
44:45
Speaker 1: you build that level of trust, Um, they are going
44:49
Speaker 1: to be super super open to talk about other stuff
44:53
Speaker 1: because they don't want to live in that moment necessarily either,
44:55
Speaker 1: and you sort of help shepherd them through that. It
44:58
Speaker 1: does build and the next thing you know, that conversation
45:00
Speaker 1: ends on like Police Academy for the best Rotten Tomatoes
45:06
Speaker 1: as spoken. Yeah, we're head. Hi. My name is Amy Watson,
45:18
Speaker 1: and um, I have a podcast on PTSD that I
45:21
Speaker 1: started after the pandemic and um, so my podcast is
45:25
Speaker 1: Wednesdays with Watson, and I started my first season autobiographical
45:28
Speaker 1: because I have lots of trauma climbed in a closet
45:30
Speaker 1: and sort of telling my story, right, Um, and I
45:33
Speaker 1: loved what you just said about not leaving the listener
45:37
Speaker 1: in a bad place, right, But you can imagine, like
45:40
Speaker 1: I'm pretty funny in real life, but it's very difficult
45:42
Speaker 1: to be funny when you're talking, especially when I was
45:45
Speaker 1: telling my my autobiography, which is lots and lots of trauma. Um,
45:50
Speaker 1: do you guys find just as valuable? And I think
45:53
Speaker 1: you hit it and I'm sorry I can't read your
45:54
Speaker 1: name from here, but but do you find it just
45:57
Speaker 1: because I'm just there's no way to really inject humor
45:59
Speaker 1: and a podcast about PTSD. There just isn't. I mean,
46:02
Speaker 1: there's some ways, but is it just as effective to
46:07
Speaker 1: just what you just said not leave them in a
46:08
Speaker 1: bad place? So, like my second season is telling the
46:11
Speaker 1: stories of other people's trauma and the crooked roads of
46:15
Speaker 1: hope and pain and how they're not there anymore, right,
46:18
Speaker 1: and so we leave them with that the hope. But
46:20
Speaker 1: but the journey, the twenty minute journey there is not fun.
46:25
Speaker 1: And so one of the things I did, because to
46:28
Speaker 1: avoid what happened to her is when people come on
46:30
Speaker 1: and tell their stories, because I'm also a writer, so
46:33
Speaker 1: I do a pre interview, listen to their story, right,
46:36
Speaker 1: so people could can swallow it in small parts and
46:39
Speaker 1: in a little bit of creative way and then interview them. So,
46:42
Speaker 1: in your opinion, in the heart, which is why I
46:44
Speaker 1: came in here, is I want them to keep listening
46:47
Speaker 1: to the next story, the next story, because this is
46:49
Speaker 1: something people aren't talking about. Is that, in your opinion,
46:52
Speaker 1: just as effective as being funny? Because I can't be
46:54
Speaker 1: funny about this. We don't have to a UM, I'm
46:59
Speaker 1: going to be fully transparent with you, not really joking.
47:02
Speaker 1: Diana and Eli are in my opinion, a little funnier
47:05
Speaker 1: than us, but I think I think all all five
47:08
Speaker 1: of us could agree that. Um. So we're thinking in
47:14
Speaker 1: terms of palette, right, like a color palette. And the
47:19
Speaker 1: what's worse than a lack of humor is forced humor.
47:25
Speaker 1: You know, somebody's talking about like a time they lost
47:29
Speaker 1: someone in a house fire, and you know, um, if
47:33
Speaker 1: you have the temerity to try to force a joke
47:36
Speaker 1: in there, that's that's either monstrous or it's um cartoonishly negligent,
47:44
Speaker 1: like you're that that is a missing piece. So I
47:47
Speaker 1: would say, I would say if if humor feels forced,
47:50
Speaker 1: then that probably is that that is a strong indicator
47:55
Speaker 1: that it doesn't belong in that part. And and and
47:58
Speaker 1: an audience feels at um the way that animals can
48:02
Speaker 1: sense earthquakes before they have it, like they will know
48:06
Speaker 1: podcast listeners are very intelligent. Well yeah, I mean we're
48:12
Speaker 1: we're we start, you know, making sure that we are
48:15
Speaker 1: in a story that we can be funny about to
48:17
Speaker 1: some degree. So it's it's a little outside our our world.
48:21
Speaker 1: But um, but I think you know, we've done comedy
48:23
Speaker 1: for a long time together, and uh, one thing, one
48:26
Speaker 1: major thing that we learned is that uh, you know,
48:29
Speaker 1: you're you're walking your audience through it, and comedy is
48:32
Speaker 1: human and uh and humane, good comedy is and you
48:36
Speaker 1: can be jarring and shocking and surprising without breaking that
48:40
Speaker 1: wall of being humane. And um and I think like
48:44
Speaker 1: will interrupt you know a lot of our heavy moments
48:46
Speaker 1: with a joke, but we have to find a way
48:49
Speaker 1: to do that that doesn't negate that moment, that doesn't
48:52
Speaker 1: undo the importance and the heaviness of what we just
48:55
Speaker 1: talked about. And I've cut jokes that didn't do that before.
48:59
Speaker 1: You know, we don't know his nail in the record.
49:00
Speaker 1: But but when they're when they're right, I think it
49:04
Speaker 1: really kind of helps your audience kind of walk away
49:07
Speaker 1: from that moment. It's all my favorite like films and
49:09
Speaker 1: television shows do that too, or they break up like
49:11
Speaker 1: heavy stuff with like a little bit of levity. And
49:14
Speaker 1: I think that's you need that. It's like a palate
49:16
Speaker 1: cleanser to kind of gets you through to the next thing.
49:18
Speaker 1: It's true, it does it does help you hang on
49:21
Speaker 1: to the end, you know what I mean when you're
49:23
Speaker 1: talking about something so heavy and so real, and of
49:26
Speaker 1: course there's nothing to joke about, but it's hard to
49:30
Speaker 1: stay in that space for a really long time. So
49:33
Speaker 1: finding a way, even if it's not humorous, but I
49:35
Speaker 1: think you're thinking in the right direction of like finding
49:37
Speaker 1: a light moment, even if it's not a funny, laugh
49:39
Speaker 1: out loud moment, just to like, Okay, we are good,
49:44
Speaker 1: we did that, and now we're back and now we
49:46
Speaker 1: can go into the rest of it exactly. Yeah, yeah,
49:58
Speaker 1: h yeah, that yeah, that's what That's what I would say.
50:02
Speaker 1: I think you guys hit on it. So maybe a
50:04
Speaker 1: better way to think of this is that comedy or
50:07
Speaker 1: humor is a genre of connection, right, it is not
50:10
Speaker 1: the only genre. So if there is some sort of connection,
50:14
Speaker 1: it is doing the work that comedy would have done.
50:18
Speaker 1: And all of these are and and I hate to interject,
50:22
Speaker 1: we've got We've been told by our experts over here,
50:25
Speaker 1: give a hand for them, please, they're doing Yeah. Uh,
50:29
Speaker 1: that's Michael, that's Zach, that's Michelle. In the bag, you're
50:32
Speaker 1: so good a name. Yeah, Well, well we walked on Michelle,
50:37
Speaker 1: do we have time for one more question? Okay, okay,
50:41
Speaker 1: Well it's it's all on, Michelle. Now, we believe in you. Hello, Hello,
50:47
Speaker 1: Heather Parody and I hast a show called Happy Brainy
50:50
Speaker 1: Face UM and we look at fund mental health Hacks
50:54
Speaker 1: and Tips, and we're about a hundred episodes in UM
50:58
Speaker 1: a background as mental health therapy, and so it's been
51:00
Speaker 1: kind of like beaten into me, like the reverence of
51:02
Speaker 1: mental health for good reason. But I also have because
51:04
Speaker 1: other side to me that's like quirky and weird, like
51:07
Speaker 1: don't leot me up on TikTok like I do skits,
51:09
Speaker 1: and I like that. So I'm really going to merge
51:11
Speaker 1: those two together. But also I'm just so afraid to
51:16
Speaker 1: really lean into that with because it's such a heavy
51:19
Speaker 1: topic and it's so serious, but to the point of connection.
51:21
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the draw of comedy, as we
51:24
Speaker 1: can talk about this stuff, it's it's a little bit
51:26
Speaker 1: more lighthearted. So this next hundred episodes we do, I
51:30
Speaker 1: really want to lean more into the funny and make
51:32
Speaker 1: it more enjoyable. But I'm also just so scared of
51:35
Speaker 1: like doing saying the wrong thing or whatever, and I
51:39
Speaker 1: just wanted to know from your expertise, like approaching something
51:42
Speaker 1: like mental health, what is something that you would advise
51:45
Speaker 1: me as a creator to be considerate of or to
51:48
Speaker 1: think of or mindset wise or tactically to do this well. Um,
51:53
Speaker 1: but also make it fun too, because that's my heart.
51:55
Speaker 1: I think you want to be obviously sensitive to anyone
51:58
Speaker 1: that might be going through these things, while not being
52:02
Speaker 1: so over sensitive that you new her the whole conversation
52:05
Speaker 1: kind of, you know. I think some people like again,
52:07
Speaker 1: that's a great example you said about that one episode
52:09
Speaker 1: where you were so worried about getting it right or
52:11
Speaker 1: being sensitive to every possible angle. I don't think you
52:14
Speaker 1: always can. You have to kind of go with your
52:16
Speaker 1: gut and be yourself and just kind of let the
52:18
Speaker 1: chips fall where they may. And you know, obviously we're
52:21
Speaker 1: all thoughtful people and we're not going to try to
52:23
Speaker 1: say anything that's gonna trigger or offend anybody. But I
52:25
Speaker 1: do sometimes think we could probably be a little easier
52:27
Speaker 1: on ourselves and not you know, be so overly yea
52:31
Speaker 1: worried that we're going to say the wrong thing, because
52:33
Speaker 1: then you end up saying nothing at all. Yes, that's
52:35
Speaker 1: very true, and if your guiding star is I I
52:38
Speaker 1: respect this and I have I have appreciation for what's
52:41
Speaker 1: going on with the struggle is I think you won't
52:44
Speaker 1: you won't punch down that way because you're you kind
52:48
Speaker 1: of picked your hero, right, so you're like, I I
52:50
Speaker 1: know whose side I'm on. So when I'm making fun,
52:54
Speaker 1: it's again, it's to help you get through this conversation.
52:58
Speaker 1: Apply it to yourself in a way that's not scary
53:01
Speaker 1: and um and like we're in this to get we're
53:04
Speaker 1: here together. I mean, it's just like you make jokes
53:06
Speaker 1: at a funeral. Nobody's like, what a jerk, you know
53:08
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like everyone's like, oh, thank god you
53:10
Speaker 1: said something like leave some tension, you know what I mean.
53:13
Speaker 1: And so it really you can find a really I
53:16
Speaker 1: think as long as you're thinking as you are thinking,
53:18
Speaker 1: which is I have a lot of respect for this topic,
53:22
Speaker 1: I think you won't go too far. And the other
53:25
Speaker 1: thing that you taught me this years ago, uh, is
53:27
Speaker 1: that it not not to be too afraid to slip up.
53:32
Speaker 1: And as long as you're open to learn and um,
53:36
Speaker 1: and that some things are you know, no group of
53:39
Speaker 1: people is a monolith, right, So there's going to be
53:41
Speaker 1: different opinions about things, and you just have to keep
53:44
Speaker 1: listening and adapting. Um and and hopefully you never get
53:49
Speaker 1: wrong again, but but you may. And that's okay as
53:53
Speaker 1: long as you know what matters is what you do
53:55
Speaker 1: with that. Afterwards, I think, yeah, well said, yeah, well,
53:58
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much, thank you to all
54:00
Speaker 1: of you for being here. Thank you, thank you so much.
54:04
Speaker 1: And we'll be we'll be hanging for a second after this. Unfortunately,
54:08
Speaker 1: we do have to wrap because otherwise I owe Michael
54:11
Speaker 1: and Zach like all the beer. So I have a
54:14
Speaker 1: wonderful time at podcast movement everyone, and we'll talk to you.
54:39
Speaker 1: You know what, I gotta be honest listening back to that,
54:43
Speaker 1: we don't sound half bad, you know what I mean,
54:46
Speaker 1: Not to break a risk patting ourselves on the back,
54:49
Speaker 1: but uh, but I like to think that through the
54:52
Speaker 1: magic podcast editing, Max was nodding along and a couple
54:55
Speaker 1: of couple of things. Okay, Max, you're that still counts
54:59
Speaker 1: as a nod. Max is not a no right now,
55:02
Speaker 1: but that still counts as it not but not I
55:04
Speaker 1: thought I thought a know was a shake was affirmative.
55:09
Speaker 1: Well we'll sort that out later. Um. But thanks so
55:12
Speaker 1: much all for listening to that. I hope that you've
55:14
Speaker 1: got something out of it, a little bit of a
55:15
Speaker 1: peak behind the curtain for how we approach the show.
55:18
Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, I mean, it's
55:19
Speaker 1: just about, you know, being a human being and approaching
55:22
Speaker 1: these topics, you know, with kind of empathy and humanity,
55:25
Speaker 1: and treating these subjects like human beings while also not
55:29
Speaker 1: being too self serious and as I think hopefully, what
55:31
Speaker 1: makes the show fun to listen to. And we surely
55:34
Speaker 1: appreciate all of you listening every week. Absolutely, yeah, big
55:39
Speaker 1: thanks to the wonderful audience. Big thanks for our colleagues,
55:42
Speaker 1: of course, big thanks to Max Williams. Folks, if you
55:45
Speaker 1: like the idea of us going live and and being
55:49
Speaker 1: on the road or even doing something virtual, you know,
55:52
Speaker 1: let us know, because we're excited. And Max and Nolan
55:56
Speaker 1: I have only been working together through the pen emmic
56:00
Speaker 1: we have. This is true. Max and I specifically have
56:04
Speaker 1: never met in person, have we? Max only once we
56:07
Speaker 1: met during the Underwear episode. Oh wait, no, you're right,
56:10
Speaker 1: You're right. I briefly forgot. But it's kind of weird though, right,
56:16
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I knew Max before he was our
56:18
Speaker 1: producer um years ago, you know, through mutual friends and
56:21
Speaker 1: Alex and whatnot and so, but we hadn't seen each
56:23
Speaker 1: other for a long time. And it's same with a
56:25
Speaker 1: lot of our colleagues. That's why this podcast movie was
56:27
Speaker 1: such a big deal because we actually got to hang
56:29
Speaker 1: out with folks that we've only seen in little avatar
56:32
Speaker 1: form where we had formed. But I actually have gotten
56:35
Speaker 1: to the point where I conflate the two, you know
56:38
Speaker 1: what I mean, where I'm like, oh no, we totally
56:40
Speaker 1: see each other all the time. It's the same and
56:42
Speaker 1: it's also different. I'm rambling, but a point being lovely
56:47
Speaker 1: to be in person with human beings again. Hope everybody
56:50
Speaker 1: out there plays smart and safe so we can get
56:53
Speaker 1: back to doing more of that sooner than later. Well said,
56:56
Speaker 1: we even might uh might take John at another road.
56:59
Speaker 1: No alms, We'll see you next time. Fooks. For more
57:09
Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
57:12
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.