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Why is Creativity Dying? | Jerm Warfare · UK Column Radio

0:03
Speaker 1: M M.
0:30
Speaker 2: My name is Jim. This is Jim Wolfe. The Battle
0:33
Speaker 2: of Ideas. Charles Mike has to quote Radiohead lift us
0:38
Speaker 2: high and dry.
0:41
Speaker 1: Well, let's come on, that's that's a bit harsh. I
0:43
Speaker 1: think he has. He has gallantly stepped into to co
0:49
Speaker 1: host the news program today. I think that's that's what
0:51
Speaker 1: you actually meant, isn't it.
0:52
Speaker 2: Yes, but I was looking for a for a way
0:54
Speaker 2: to give a thumbs up to Radiohead. I was listening
0:56
Speaker 2: to them this weekend.
0:58
Speaker 1: All right, okay, okay, you're you're going to have to
1:00
Speaker 1: take the lead on that. I'm not much of an
1:02
Speaker 1: expert where where Radiohead is or was it? Yeah? But
1:09
Speaker 1: then but then again, how much time did you ever
1:11
Speaker 1: spend chatting to Johnny Clegg?
1:13
Speaker 2: Very little time, but I did, Well, I don't know
1:16
Speaker 2: that he probably less than Lady came from South Africa.
1:18
Speaker 2: Radio Hit, by the way, what probably one of the
1:19
Speaker 2: greatest bands ever. And the actual fact, I mean, just
1:23
Speaker 2: before we chat about anything serious, the UK I think
1:27
Speaker 2: has brought out some of the best music in history.
1:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, but hold on again, I mean, you know we're
1:35
Speaker 1: gonna have to qualify a lot of this stuff, because
1:38
Speaker 1: when you say history. I mean where how.
1:40
Speaker 2: Lost fifty years? I mean, like I recorded of recording.
1:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, I would agree with that. But
1:49
Speaker 1: then again, if you're you know, nowadays, I find I
1:53
Speaker 1: take massive pleasure in listening to and again I can't
1:57
Speaker 1: I can't go into details, but just the types of
1:59
Speaker 1: music that come from Sub Saharan Africa, for example, totally
2:03
Speaker 1: different stuff but really really engaging and with a sort
2:08
Speaker 1: of jollity to it that I think is missing, or
2:11
Speaker 1: has been missing from quite large chunks of British music
2:16
Speaker 1: for a long time. There's a lot of quite miserable
2:19
Speaker 1: stuff there as well.
2:20
Speaker 2: I just want to quickly say to disclaim it, because
2:23
Speaker 2: I know someone's going to say, yes, but Tom York
2:25
Speaker 2: is involved in all this horrible stuff. Yes, yes, I'm
2:29
Speaker 2: not a fan of these politics and all that kind
2:31
Speaker 2: of stuff. I'm just simply talking about the music. But
2:33
Speaker 2: the segue here, Charles is I wanted to chat to
2:36
Speaker 2: you about creativity, and I know you actually wanted to
2:39
Speaker 2: chat about it too, because I've been talking about creativity
2:42
Speaker 2: a lot in the last week or so, just as
2:44
Speaker 2: it happens with just with friends, and the link is
2:52
Speaker 2: AI and how much creativity can come from that, and
2:56
Speaker 2: of course where we are today versus let's say twenty
2:59
Speaker 2: years ago, even fifty years, hundred years ago. It's a
3:02
Speaker 2: strange conversation because it makes you question again, you know,
3:09
Speaker 2: what creativity is.
3:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think my start point is just
3:15
Speaker 1: to think about why it is that it's not really
3:19
Speaker 1: talked about so much. I think those that look at
3:21
Speaker 1: the world perhaps with an element of despair and think
3:26
Speaker 1: that we're not perhaps getting it quite right. I feel
3:32
Speaker 1: that creativity, for want of a better term, sort of
3:35
Speaker 1: overarching umbrella. I think it's not really it's not really
3:39
Speaker 1: thought about very much. But actually, if you do look
3:42
Speaker 1: at the types of art forms that were being produced
3:47
Speaker 1: exactly like you say, have further back, you know, one
3:49
Speaker 1: hundred years or more ago, I think there's been a
3:53
Speaker 1: very very pronounced shift and that is not a coincidence.
3:57
Speaker 1: And I think there's a load that one can learn
4:00
Speaker 1: from it. And also I think there's a lot that
4:02
Speaker 1: one can learn from the Emperor's New Clothes element to it,
4:07
Speaker 1: and how on earth we've got to this point because
4:11
Speaker 1: in a lot of instances, and a very easy one
4:14
Speaker 1: would be to point to, say the Turner Prize, which
4:17
Speaker 1: has been one of the really significant movers in the
4:24
Speaker 1: sort of modern or conceptual art world over the last
4:27
Speaker 1: two or three decades, and at the very first meetings
4:32
Speaker 1: where stuff was being submitted that quite frankly did not
4:36
Speaker 1: conform in any way to what had previously been regarded
4:39
Speaker 1: as art. And by what I mean, sorry, what I
4:41
Speaker 1: mean by that is to put something into a competition
4:47
Speaker 1: or to exhibit something as art that frankly anyone else
4:51
Speaker 1: could have done. There wasn't any demonstration of skill, as
4:57
Speaker 1: it were. And that's where this idea of something being oh, well,
5:01
Speaker 1: you know, it's conceptual, it's the thought that's gone into
5:04
Speaker 1: it's actually now. I don't think anyone else could have
5:06
Speaker 1: created it. I mean, I absolutely do fall out with that.
5:09
Speaker 1: And the standout example was Tracy Emin's bed, which was
5:17
Speaker 1: just a bed covered in junk. And I'm sorry for
5:21
Speaker 1: anyone who thinks there's more to it than that. There
5:24
Speaker 1: really isn't that. That is what it was, and it
5:27
Speaker 1: was just the only reason it fluted as an idea.
5:31
Speaker 1: It was because it was to do with the sort
5:32
Speaker 1: of the self involvement. It was because of what it
5:35
Speaker 1: described about her life. Well, I don't know, is that
5:39
Speaker 1: really that interesting, And I think again that was very
5:42
Speaker 1: reflective of the way the culture has gone. The same
5:46
Speaker 1: thing's been reflected in music. Song lyrics have moved from
5:51
Speaker 1: using the word you to using the word I. So
5:55
Speaker 1: there's just that there are these terrific shifts. And you've
5:58
Speaker 1: just talked about AI, artificial intelligence and the way that
6:03
Speaker 1: people are just absolutely pointed into the most insular, I suppose,
6:08
Speaker 1: in a way narcissistic version of themselves. And I think
6:11
Speaker 1: creativity and art in all its forms has to be
6:15
Speaker 1: looked at in this but often it isn't. It's just
6:19
Speaker 1: totally overlooked, as though it's a sort of side show.
6:22
Speaker 1: But I don't think it is a side show at all.
6:23
Speaker 1: Things absolutely part and parcel of it.
6:25
Speaker 2: Yes, And just for the sake of clarity, when we're
6:27
Speaker 2: talking about creativity, we also have to define it. So
6:31
Speaker 2: I would argue that creativity is being able to produce
6:36
Speaker 2: an idea or something that is probably new novel and meaningful.
6:46
Speaker 2: It has value. And if we look at AI in
6:53
Speaker 2: many ways, you have to ask does that fit the definition?
7:01
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think so at all. I mean, how
7:04
Speaker 1: can it because all it's able to do is make
7:08
Speaker 1: an amalgam of things that it's looked at elsewhere. You
7:11
Speaker 1: could say that, in a sense, that's what the human
7:14
Speaker 1: brain is doing all the time. But I think I
7:16
Speaker 1: have to reject that, especially when you go back to
7:20
Speaker 1: classical music, about which I know not nearly enough unfortunately,
7:24
Speaker 1: but the way in which music was constructed it is
7:32
Speaker 1: not well. I mean, certainly, obviously these things become cumulative,
7:37
Speaker 1: but at the point go back several hundred years, the
7:42
Speaker 1: themes that were being developed, the types of music that
7:45
Speaker 1: were coming out, well, it was all originals, all absolutely original.
7:50
Speaker 1: And of course that went alongside the development of musical
7:54
Speaker 1: instruments and the types of spaces that you're be able
7:57
Speaker 1: to use to create the best effects for music and
8:01
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing, and that has now, you know,
8:04
Speaker 1: that's been reduced down because of the way in which
8:08
Speaker 1: electronics have taken over everything. And this is it's not
8:10
Speaker 1: a criticism, it's just it's an observation, but that's been
8:13
Speaker 1: reduced down to such a sort of simplistic method for
8:21
Speaker 1: listening to appreciating, enjoying, or creating, let's say, creating music.
8:26
Speaker 1: But I think that what I would go back to
8:27
Speaker 1: the any thing I would add in terms of creativity,
8:30
Speaker 1: is the difficulty or the skill, or the the fact
8:34
Speaker 1: that you, as the creator, are doing something that somebody
8:38
Speaker 1: else can't do because you're putting your particular stamp on it.
8:44
Speaker 1: And that's why I use the example of Tracy Emmon's bed.
8:48
Speaker 1: Anyone could have done that because it was just it
8:50
Speaker 1: was just the process of arranging a woldad of what
8:54
Speaker 1: called phoned objects in art. Where's the where's the skill?
9:00
Speaker 1: And that's the bit that's missing. And that's why AI
9:04
Speaker 1: has come in because it tricks the user into thinking
9:08
Speaker 1: that there's skill because something's created that might look a
9:12
Speaker 1: bit different, or it might look at first glance perhaps impressive,
9:15
Speaker 1: so you know there's skill that there's not there. Really
9:19
Speaker 1: there really isn't. And I think that just says a
9:22
Speaker 1: lot about us and what we've become willing to accept.
9:27
Speaker 2: Isn't it. This creativity is what happens in the gap
9:30
Speaker 2: between stimulus and response. It's what emerges when a human
9:34
Speaker 2: mind is left alone long enough to wonder, light ideas,
9:38
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, make something unexpected. It requires boredom, risk, failure,
9:43
Speaker 2: and freedom. It is fundamentally an act of resistance against
9:47
Speaker 2: the predictable. Now. That little bit there about the gap
9:52
Speaker 2: between stimulus and response, for me is quite important when
9:55
Speaker 2: talking about AI, because if you're going to create a
9:57
Speaker 2: song on AI we credit, or create an art work
10:01
Speaker 2: which you're going to claim as art with AI, what
10:05
Speaker 2: is happening between the stimulus and the response?
10:13
Speaker 1: Well, absolutely, as far as the human is concerned, nothing, really,
10:18
Speaker 1: I don't think. But what I mean, the obvious thing
10:22
Speaker 1: to ask you about are the creation of your cartoons.
10:27
Speaker 1: You've done. You produced the fine image for first issue
10:34
Speaker 1: of the Colony Zee and the next one, yes, which
10:38
Speaker 1: of course is under wraps for now. But let's say
10:43
Speaker 1: take take that as an example. How do you do that? What?
10:46
Speaker 1: What are the processes that you go through? Well before
10:48
Speaker 1: you start to actually draw or paint anything?
10:52
Speaker 2: Uh Well, I mean it comes down to thinking first.
10:56
Speaker 2: And I love the idea of being bored because boredom
10:59
Speaker 2: forces you into creativity because you want to get out
11:03
Speaker 2: of that state. And as a result, I would get
11:10
Speaker 2: bored with doing the same thing over and over and
11:13
Speaker 2: over obviously, right, So then I want to try something
11:15
Speaker 2: different or try something new. And when I think about,
11:20
Speaker 2: you know, the initial idea, the general direction that I
11:24
Speaker 2: want to go. There's an intention, and that's also important.
11:26
Speaker 2: There's an intention there is there is a destination where
11:32
Speaker 2: I want to go. I'm not just randomly throwing stuff,
11:36
Speaker 2: you know, on the page or whatever. And the process
11:39
Speaker 2: along the way is very fun and creative, and I
11:45
Speaker 2: can get immersed in it and get lost in it
11:48
Speaker 2: for for for that few hours, and if I get
11:51
Speaker 2: too lost in it, then I will lose the destination.
11:55
Speaker 2: I won't get to where I need to go. So
11:57
Speaker 2: there is a little bit of analysis that had happens
12:00
Speaker 2: along the way, but it's it's putting together all the
12:03
Speaker 2: various elements of the physical drawing and enjoying it and
12:09
Speaker 2: knowing where I'm going with it, and remembering that there's
12:12
Speaker 2: a message also by the way coming through. It's not
12:16
Speaker 2: just Jackson Pollock throwing stuff on a canvas. So there
12:21
Speaker 2: are multiple levels.
12:25
Speaker 1: Okay, And then the other thing. For anyone who hasn't
12:28
Speaker 1: seen your art work, your style is very distinctive. I
12:32
Speaker 1: would say it's immediately obvious when seeing cartoon of yours
12:35
Speaker 1: that it is by you. How did you How did
12:38
Speaker 1: you develop that? I mean, do you remember even coming
12:41
Speaker 1: up with, as I say, what looks like a style
12:44
Speaker 1: and how do you arrive at as.
12:46
Speaker 2: I love that question because that is sort of like
12:49
Speaker 2: a band that's trying to create its own style of
12:53
Speaker 2: music and recreating it as it goes along. So I
12:56
Speaker 2: get bored again with my own stuff. So if I look,
12:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I've drawn thar of cartoons over the years,
13:01
Speaker 2: and if I go back, it looks very different to
13:05
Speaker 2: what it does now, And I think it's just a
13:07
Speaker 2: matter of of of of pushing my own limits. One
13:12
Speaker 2: of the things that I think that you alluding to
13:15
Speaker 2: when I talk when you talk about my style, is
13:16
Speaker 2: my line work. My line work is very messy, very
13:19
Speaker 2: very loose and messy that has taken years to get
13:22
Speaker 2: to because you need quite a lot of confidence to
13:25
Speaker 2: draw like a five year old, you know. That's that's
13:28
Speaker 2: why I look at it. Because one of the things
13:31
Speaker 2: that we do as we get older is we want
13:33
Speaker 2: to become as analytical and professional as possible, but we
13:37
Speaker 2: lose that that that that kindergarten spirit, and and that
13:43
Speaker 2: for me is something that I you know, that I
13:45
Speaker 2: never want to lose. I always want to feel like
13:49
Speaker 2: like I'm having that that sort of childhood fun. Quentin
13:53
Speaker 2: Blake is a great example Drew famously for for all
13:58
Speaker 2: of Roald Doll's books. Look at his look at his style.
14:01
Speaker 2: That's very very loose, and it's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful
14:06
Speaker 2: to look at. And and for me, that's that's what
14:09
Speaker 2: I enjoy. I want to be able to look at
14:10
Speaker 2: it afterwards and go, that looks really nice. And I
14:13
Speaker 2: wanted to look like it was mathematically and academically put together,
14:16
Speaker 2: you know, But there are many cartoonists to draw very
14:20
Speaker 2: very precisely, and that's also fine. But I'm just saying
14:25
Speaker 2: that it takes it takes a lot of confidence to
14:28
Speaker 2: be able to to to put lines down and go
14:32
Speaker 2: they're not neat. But I'm okay with that.
14:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well I absolute agree. The results is
14:41
Speaker 1: terrific and and of course, you know, referring to contem Blake,
14:45
Speaker 1: I think people would be instantly familiar with them with
14:48
Speaker 1: what that means. But that that is fascinating and you
14:50
Speaker 1: see that that tells me, tells anyone listening a lot
14:56
Speaker 1: about you. In again, I think in the way that
15:01
Speaker 1: just chucking a whole load of things over a bed
15:04
Speaker 1: doesn't quite do, and it is a totally different thing.
15:08
Speaker 1: And also if I were to sit down to try
15:11
Speaker 1: to replicate your style, I wouldn't be able to do it.
15:16
Speaker 1: And I think that's another critical detail of this And
15:19
Speaker 1: the reason just to go back a bit, because I
15:21
Speaker 1: think this does this does bring it to the sort
15:28
Speaker 1: of more generic in terms of what we see all
15:30
Speaker 1: the time. The reason I suggested that we talk about
15:33
Speaker 1: this this morning was because I spent a long time
15:35
Speaker 1: on the motorway over the weekend and cars now are
15:40
Speaker 1: on the roads in the United Kingdom Western Europe, they
15:43
Speaker 1: are becoming increasingly homogeneous in design. I mean have been
15:48
Speaker 1: for a long time. But it's what's so interesting about
15:52
Speaker 1: that is that the moment you see a car that
15:55
Speaker 1: is more than forty or fifty years old, it instantly
15:58
Speaker 1: catches your eye, can't fail to, and it doesn't really
16:01
Speaker 1: matter what sort it was. There are you know, you'll
16:04
Speaker 1: occasionally see an old Ford that wasn't sort of designed
16:09
Speaker 1: to be a thing of beauty, but nonetheless now it
16:11
Speaker 1: almost does seem to be a thing of beauty because
16:13
Speaker 1: it's not just and yet another sort of anodyne. You know,
16:23
Speaker 1: it doesn't look the same as everything else. And even
16:26
Speaker 1: Reno now have tried to reproduce a car of this.
16:31
Speaker 1: It was a real hit in the nineteen eighties to
16:32
Speaker 1: Reno five, and they've put out a new version of it,
16:35
Speaker 1: and I can see that it will catch. It will
16:37
Speaker 1: catch people's eyes. That seems to be mostly to do
16:39
Speaker 1: with the colors that they've produced it in, but just
16:41
Speaker 1: not in the same way. It is not the same.
16:42
Speaker 1: It doesn't have that same look or feel about it,
16:47
Speaker 1: and I think we've just lost it in and car design.
16:49
Speaker 1: You know that the refrain is, oh, well, it's to
16:53
Speaker 1: do with our dynamics, efficiency and safety. That's why cars
16:58
Speaker 1: have had to become like that. Now. I don't buy
17:01
Speaker 1: that at all, but I think it just it just
17:05
Speaker 1: tells us a lot about where we've gone as a society.
17:08
Speaker 1: But now nothing. I can't think of a single thing
17:12
Speaker 1: that is designed in such a way as to primarily
17:16
Speaker 1: look beautiful. Buildings absolutely be in case in point. And
17:21
Speaker 1: not only that. With buildings you get the in effect,
17:26
Speaker 1: the double whammy. They don't look good, but also they
17:28
Speaker 1: don't actually last long. They're made of materials that deteriorate
17:32
Speaker 1: very quickly, So some sort of fancy structure put up
17:36
Speaker 1: today in five ten years will will look terrible and
17:41
Speaker 1: there's not really anything you can do about that, whereas
17:43
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of old the buildings you can
17:45
Speaker 1: clean up, you can make them look better again. So
17:49
Speaker 1: it's it is a big part. And after all, these
17:51
Speaker 1: are things that we're surrounded by all the time, and
17:54
Speaker 1: I just don't think, you know, it is not good
17:55
Speaker 1: for the soul to be looking at these sorts of
17:59
Speaker 1: things in comparison with with how they were.
18:02
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think many will argue that a lot
18:04
Speaker 2: of this is about design, and I think I might
18:06
Speaker 2: agree with with something. I think I think there's a
18:08
Speaker 2: there's a convergence of excuse me, there's a convergence of
18:14
Speaker 2: design and emergence going on here. Because if you make
18:17
Speaker 2: everything look the same, you you, you, you remove the
18:23
Speaker 2: element of uniqueness and of course creativity, and everything becomes
18:27
Speaker 2: kind of like zombie like. And that's that's a fairly
18:30
Speaker 2: transhumanist way of looking at things. You know, everybody must
18:34
Speaker 2: become the same. In actual fact, it feeds into culture
18:40
Speaker 2: wars on multiple levels, Charles, because egalitarianism, for example, is
18:45
Speaker 2: one such example. It's making everybody the same. We must
18:48
Speaker 2: all look and think and be the same.
18:52
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, it's one of the enduring features of the
18:57
Speaker 1: Soviet Union. If you go to think, the thing that
19:00
Speaker 1: always sticks in my mind is a children's playgrounds. You
19:04
Speaker 1: walk through any town in the former Soviet Union and
19:08
Speaker 1: you'll see exactly the same colored fence around the edge
19:12
Speaker 1: of a children's playground. All the sort of slides and
19:16
Speaker 1: swings and everything else are absolutely identical. It doesn't matter
19:19
Speaker 1: where you are. And that covers a span of thousands
19:21
Speaker 1: and thousands of miles, and yet it was all homogenized
19:26
Speaker 1: in the same way that so many things were. And okay,
19:31
Speaker 1: I wasn't there, of course, but the way in which
19:35
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union did operate, it's absolutely not coincidence that
19:41
Speaker 1: everything within that geographical area was totally standardized and looked
19:47
Speaker 1: the same. And that seems to be absolutely an indicator.
19:52
Speaker 1: And this is really why I think it is such
19:54
Speaker 1: an important subject, because we're looking, we're occupying a space
19:58
Speaker 1: where everything is beginning to look exactly the same. And
20:01
Speaker 1: and of course the other people the idea that fashion
20:05
Speaker 1: or clothing is in some way distinct, I mean, it's
20:10
Speaker 1: just not. You know, the people are by and large
20:14
Speaker 1: just stuffed into exactly the same bits of clothing, and
20:18
Speaker 1: there's no there's no sort of individual flare or character
20:23
Speaker 1: or anything like that actually anymore now, or at least
20:26
Speaker 1: people are immediately obvious when when they do look different.
20:30
Speaker 2: I saw that homogeneous style. Also when other China from
20:35
Speaker 2: from the old days, there's a lot of the same, same,
20:37
Speaker 2: same kind of architecture, and I find that very depressing.
20:42
Speaker 2: One of the things. For what it's worth, even though
20:45
Speaker 2: Europe is in all kinds of cultural decline, there is
20:49
Speaker 2: unbelievable architectural beauty.
20:53
Speaker 1: Well there's there, absolutely is, And I think that's why
20:56
Speaker 1: this is, that's why the changes we're talking about are
20:58
Speaker 1: so jarring, because I I agree with you, you know Chinese
21:01
Speaker 1: that what I have seen of Chinese cities, yeah, I
21:05
Speaker 1: mean very very uninspiring, endless rows of buildings that look
21:11
Speaker 1: absolutely identical, and that is not I don't see that
21:13
Speaker 1: that is a is a good environment within which to generate,
21:17
Speaker 1: to foster encourage creativity. I just don't see how it
21:21
Speaker 1: can be or indeed, you know, we talked about this
21:24
Speaker 1: a lot, the sort of the mystery of how it
21:27
Speaker 1: is that Chinese society does appear to behave as it does,
21:31
Speaker 1: and you know, it probably's got their own theories about
21:34
Speaker 1: exactly this and the idea of how the state does
21:36
Speaker 1: exert the control. But it appears to have so the
21:39
Speaker 1: debate is I'm sure to be had on that. But
21:41
Speaker 1: what is perfect clear is that Chinese society has changed
21:44
Speaker 1: a lot over time. And is that a part of it?
21:47
Speaker 1: Is that a factor of it? You know, if you
21:48
Speaker 1: if you create the conditions around people, you make an
21:52
Speaker 1: environment that is not one born of imagination, difference in creativity.
21:58
Speaker 1: Do you somehow create within the minds of those people
22:02
Speaker 1: the same sort of subdued levels of imagination, creativity and
22:07
Speaker 1: all the rest of it? I think that there must
22:08
Speaker 1: be an element of that. But the but the this
22:14
Speaker 1: is why, as I say, this is why it jars.
22:16
Speaker 1: Because Western Europe is absolutely full of incredible architectural flair
22:22
Speaker 1: and character, but only to a point, and that then
22:26
Speaker 1: that has just stopped. And even buildings now that are
22:31
Speaker 1: described as or intended to be avant garde or daring
22:35
Speaker 1: or even beautiful, I think by comparison they pale. They
22:40
Speaker 1: pale into insignificance. They are not the same at all.
22:43
Speaker 1: And in fact, when you look up close and when
22:45
Speaker 1: you're familiar with these things, they tend to use exactly
22:50
Speaker 1: like AI. In fact, they tend to use an amalgam
22:53
Speaker 1: of the same thing, so you can pick particular features,
22:56
Speaker 1: and they're normally structural. So you'll look at the way
23:00
Speaker 1: in which some sort of tubular frame has been used
23:03
Speaker 1: somewhere and you see exactly the same thing in multiple places.
23:07
Speaker 1: And the reason for that is because exactly like carb design,
23:09
Speaker 1: there's the priorities are changed, and so rather than creating
23:14
Speaker 1: a genuinely beautiful building, in fact, what you're really saying
23:16
Speaker 1: as well, it's going to be cheaper, or it's going
23:18
Speaker 1: to be easier, or we can create this particular effect
23:20
Speaker 1: if we use this material, and therefore we will do
23:23
Speaker 1: a cut and paste job. And I think that's what's happened.
23:26
Speaker 1: Whereas the buildings, of of course you're always going to
23:30
Speaker 1: be constrained by what you can do structurally. But if
23:32
Speaker 1: you look at them in cathedrals are such an obvious example.
23:35
Speaker 1: They are incredibly daring, bold, but also individual. Yes, they
23:42
Speaker 1: conformed to roughly the same ideas, but actually there is
23:46
Speaker 1: no mistaking them. Could you would, I think you'd find
23:51
Speaker 1: it very difficult to confuse, say to to splendid cathedrals,
23:56
Speaker 1: And there's a huge range, but I don't think that's
23:59
Speaker 1: the case with more buildings. Still.
24:01
Speaker 2: Now, it's a difficult conversation to have because we are
24:03
Speaker 2: speaking about an abstract concept you, I mean, creativity. It's
24:06
Speaker 2: not something that's hard and fast. But I think generally, Charles,
24:11
Speaker 2: if we just take a step back, and if we
24:14
Speaker 2: consider that if people are creatively passive, a lot of
24:21
Speaker 2: that is not necessarily their own doing. They simply aren't
24:24
Speaker 2: aware that they are being manipulated through the algorithm. You know,
24:28
Speaker 2: they're being managed through all their devices, and so they
24:34
Speaker 2: become intellectually dependent, I suppose, on everything else that's directing
24:41
Speaker 2: them and managing them. And when that occurs, even willingly
24:45
Speaker 2: or unwillingly, they become easier to control and sell products to.
24:53
Speaker 2: And I think a part of that also is self censorship.
24:55
Speaker 2: I mean, self censorship, in my view, is instrumental in
25:00
Speaker 2: suppressing creativity, because you are becoming fearful of what those
25:07
Speaker 2: around you might think or say with your own idea expression.
25:15
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
25:18
Speaker 1: I think it does. Yeah, absolutely it does. And I
25:20
Speaker 1: think the point about the passive nature of any of
25:24
Speaker 1: this is another really important one, and that's what that is.
25:28
Speaker 1: In fact, what has happened. People are not the primary
25:32
Speaker 1: creator in so many instances, now you are in some
25:36
Speaker 1: way obliged to use some sort of an intermediary. So
25:41
Speaker 1: the obvious example, it's people losing the ability to write
25:45
Speaker 1: properly with the penal pencil and going straight to a
25:48
Speaker 1: keyboard instead. And a keyboard, of course is creating.
25:50
Speaker 2: But can you write in cursive still?
25:54
Speaker 1: I you know the joke is that? What is the
25:58
Speaker 1: joke about doctor's prescriptions? Yeah? I mean my I handwrite everything.
26:02
Speaker 1: We have to talk about this boor actually, but no,
26:06
Speaker 1: My use of a keyboard is only where I actually
26:09
Speaker 1: have to send the thing or commit it electronically. Otherwise
26:12
Speaker 1: I write everything down. So yeah, I mean I write
26:15
Speaker 1: absolutely in small, barely legible, but I would say neat
26:21
Speaker 1: at least there is there is a distinctive style to
26:25
Speaker 1: my handwriting, and that's that to me is a very
26:29
Speaker 1: very important thing to be able to do. And I
26:30
Speaker 1: would not want to to note what I do note
26:35
Speaker 1: down on a keyboard. I just I don't like that idea.
26:38
Speaker 1: And in fact, even in terms of font I don't know.
26:44
Speaker 1: It's fun, isn't it that the style that an old
26:47
Speaker 1: fashioned sort of clackery claque typewriter creates. I like to.
26:51
Speaker 1: I find that pleasing on a page, especially when there's
26:53
Speaker 1: still sort of the indentation and you know there is
26:55
Speaker 1: an actual physical piece of paper. But that's for me,
26:58
Speaker 1: that is absolutely not replicate if you create a document
27:02
Speaker 1: on a computer. Looking at it, or even a printed
27:06
Speaker 1: version of it, it's just not the same. It's not
27:09
Speaker 1: I can't really pinpoint exactly what it is, but there's
27:13
Speaker 1: just something that is not quite right about it.
27:15
Speaker 2: I like what you're saying this. Somebody asked me a
27:17
Speaker 2: few weeks ago, do I handwrite all the text, for example,
27:21
Speaker 2: in my cartoons or do I use a font and
27:23
Speaker 2: I handwrite everything? And I have since I started drawing,
27:27
Speaker 2: And the reason for that is quite simply, the text
27:32
Speaker 2: is part of the cartoon. It's also part of the artwork.
27:38
Speaker 2: I don't mind. I suppose using a computer font depends
27:42
Speaker 2: on it depends on what the intention is. A lot
27:44
Speaker 2: of cartoonists do that, and a lot of newspaper cartoons,
27:48
Speaker 2: even going back hundred years, would use a type font
27:51
Speaker 2: the caption that ran underneath it. But I've always preferred handwriting.
28:00
Speaker 1: I think it looks better. I mean, there is I
28:03
Speaker 1: think we still This is what will never get away
28:05
Speaker 1: from I would hope is the ability to detect whether
28:10
Speaker 1: or not something is a human created, human generated and
28:15
Speaker 1: I'd say no, I mean, I know it. I say
28:19
Speaker 1: it constantly improves. I don't want to fall into the
28:23
Speaker 1: trap of suggesting that AI is anything other than a
28:26
Speaker 1: human created program that is sophisticated. But I think people
28:33
Speaker 1: are basically pretty good at discerning whether or not something's
28:36
Speaker 1: being generated by AI. It's too it's too bland and
28:41
Speaker 1: too polished, and I don't think that it looks like
28:46
Speaker 1: you read something that's been written by AI, you listen
28:49
Speaker 1: to something, you look at something. I think we're still
28:54
Speaker 1: not going to be deceived by it.
28:56
Speaker 2: I agree with you, and.
28:59
Speaker 1: I really hope that remains the case. And I think
29:01
Speaker 1: it's pretty alarming if that ceases to be the case,
29:03
Speaker 1: because it does it does pose quite big questions about
29:10
Speaker 1: about the senses that we retain. And I think this
29:13
Speaker 1: is again another part of it. We are okay, I know,
29:16
Speaker 1: we we've talked about this before, but the whole sort
29:19
Speaker 1: of well, our humans, animals are or are human, you know,
29:22
Speaker 1: should we be regarded as never mind that? Yeah, okay,
29:26
Speaker 1: but but the point is that we used to have
29:31
Speaker 1: the ability to detect with certain senses things that we
29:35
Speaker 1: absolutely can't do now. There are there are some you know,
29:39
Speaker 1: like the idea that somebody is watching you, or somebody
29:41
Speaker 1: is behind you, or things that you can't really rationally explain.
29:45
Speaker 1: Well why is it that you just know that's the case.
29:49
Speaker 1: But you think watch a dog or a you know,
29:53
Speaker 1: wild animal it reacts to its environment and try and think, well, gosh,
29:59
Speaker 1: how on earth how did it do that? How did
30:01
Speaker 1: it note that? And what we're able to do as
30:04
Speaker 1: humans in the twenty first century is I think a
30:09
Speaker 1: shadow of what we were able to do previously. And
30:12
Speaker 1: this is why I do find it very interesting, because
30:15
Speaker 1: I'm also of the belief that that's the case physically
30:17
Speaker 1: as well. I think we are. I think we are
30:20
Speaker 1: fairly pathetic specimens physically compared with what we were suddenly
30:25
Speaker 1: two or three hundred years ago, and going far further back,
30:29
Speaker 1: because I do not see how we could possibly have
30:32
Speaker 1: endured as a species without being significantly more able in
30:39
Speaker 1: so many respects. But then that is an interesting point
30:41
Speaker 1: because then we go back to what we might describe
30:44
Speaker 1: as early art, cave art for example, or even the
30:49
Speaker 1: more naive versions of sort of early Renaissance are and
30:52
Speaker 1: the story the history of art will tell you, oh yeah,
30:56
Speaker 1: that's because they hadn't really worked out perspective by that point.
31:00
Speaker 1: Now is that credible? Is it really credible? I mean,
31:04
Speaker 1: I see children now getting to an age. I mean
31:08
Speaker 1: it depends on the child, but some children will work
31:10
Speaker 1: out perspective in terms of drawing it by the age
31:14
Speaker 1: of seven or eight. That has not been a learned skill.
31:19
Speaker 1: It's just spending that time, whether you're whether through boredom
31:24
Speaker 1: or whatever else, spending the time looking at something and thinking, Okay,
31:28
Speaker 1: that bit looks bigger at this end than it does
31:31
Speaker 1: at that end, and I can draw that by making
31:34
Speaker 1: lines that will converge at a point in the distance.
31:37
Speaker 1: So the idea that this was not clear to those
31:42
Speaker 1: creating art in caves or indeed on canvas or on
31:46
Speaker 1: walls one hundreds or thousands of years ago, I don't
31:49
Speaker 1: buy they were doing something. They were trying to do
31:52
Speaker 1: something which we don't understand to this day. But it's
31:57
Speaker 1: a to me, it's completely fascinating because I think it
32:01
Speaker 1: throws up in the idea, It throws up in the air.
32:03
Speaker 1: This this whole, the whole nature of our understanding between creativity,
32:09
Speaker 1: art and society. And the other thing that again I
32:11
Speaker 1: find totally fascinating compelling is is the argument put forward
32:16
Speaker 1: by one of the many arguments put forward by Camille
32:18
Speaker 1: Paglia about art effectively telling you where you are in
32:23
Speaker 1: so far as a civilization is concerned. And her contention
32:27
Speaker 1: is that when art, particularly the representation of the human
32:30
Speaker 1: form becomes all sort of androgynous and and you know,
32:37
Speaker 1: there's no longer that if you think back to some
32:40
Speaker 1: of the statues created by let's say, Michaelangelo, you know,
32:45
Speaker 1: strong muscular men, and then you move to a point
32:48
Speaker 1: where the human form is represented as either being vastly
32:53
Speaker 1: sort of bloated and obey and obviously a sort of distortion,
32:58
Speaker 1: or very very waif like with no real possibility of
33:06
Speaker 1: telling even perhaps what sex the subject is. To her,
33:12
Speaker 1: that is an indicator defining the end of the demise
33:18
Speaker 1: of a civilization. And I think that is totally fascinating,
33:22
Speaker 1: And that's why I think this debate, this topic is
33:25
Speaker 1: so interesting and so serious, because that is in effect
33:30
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing with the design of so much stuff.
33:33
Speaker 1: Now we are at that point I mean.
33:35
Speaker 2: That's exactly correct. I can't argue with that at all,
33:39
Speaker 2: because creativity is a characteristical being human. It's fundamental to
33:44
Speaker 2: our happiness and to everything that we are, you know,
33:47
Speaker 2: at a very sort of existential level. I don't think animals,
33:53
Speaker 2: from what I can tell, can be creative. They act
33:56
Speaker 2: basically instinctively based on survival. I don't mean you're not
34:00
Speaker 2: going to find a polar beer painting, you know, So.
34:04
Speaker 1: No, okay, fair enough, not maybe not painting, but I
34:07
Speaker 1: will I will take you to task on that somewhat,
34:09
Speaker 1: because you definitely will find polar bears playing and that
34:12
Speaker 1: is effectively what we're doing. So you're so they will
34:14
Speaker 1: create a situation in which they want to take pleasure,
34:19
Speaker 1: and I think that's the point of coincidence. So so yes,
34:23
Speaker 1: without the without the wherewithal to paint, yeah, I would agree,
34:28
Speaker 1: then they're not doing that. But to suggest they're not
34:30
Speaker 1: creating anything, I think is not the case.
34:33
Speaker 2: No, No, there's a difference, though there are hmm, okay,
34:39
Speaker 2: so the I'm trying to think how to express this though,
34:46
Speaker 2: be with difficulty. Playful seems to be hardwired into most
34:52
Speaker 2: living things. There's a difference there's a difference in being
34:57
Speaker 2: playful because being playful also acts as as a it
35:02
Speaker 2: acts as a type of evolutionary And I'm not buying
35:05
Speaker 2: to the argument of evolution. I'm just saying it's there
35:07
Speaker 2: is a biological reason for the playfulness because it helps
35:11
Speaker 2: them create awareness for the surroundings. That adds to strength.
35:14
Speaker 2: If you look at, you know, two male elephants, it
35:19
Speaker 2: helps create a hierarchy. So this is what I'm trying
35:24
Speaker 2: to say, is this like there's an instinctive reason for
35:28
Speaker 2: that playfulness, and I don't know whether or not it's creativity.
35:33
Speaker 2: Is that I'm struggling to express what I'm doing.
35:36
Speaker 1: No, No, I don't. I think I think know what
35:38
Speaker 1: you mean. Yes, yes, okay, yeah, yeah, I know fair enough.
35:41
Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is that there's a there is,
35:46
Speaker 1: in effect, an end to every one of their means. Yes, exactly, yes, yes,
35:53
Speaker 1: But but then, but then, isn't that exactly what what
35:57
Speaker 1: it's doing with human beings? We are in effect expanding our.
36:02
Speaker 2: Mine Hang on, I'm sorry, I'm jumping in again. Sorry, Charles,
36:06
Speaker 2: But creativity, you remember the beginning I suggested that it's
36:10
Speaker 2: also based on something new. Yes, being playful is not creating.
36:17
Speaker 2: It's not presenting something.
36:19
Speaker 1: I think. I think it can be that. It entirely
36:21
Speaker 1: depends if it's if you're watching animals that do not
36:26
Speaker 1: occupy the same piece of territory all the time they move,
36:30
Speaker 1: they will they will use different bits of ground to
36:32
Speaker 1: do different things wherever it is they go, and they
36:35
Speaker 1: will find similarly, if it involves finding a different way
36:40
Speaker 1: to eat, I mean, I appreciate it. That's not that's
36:43
Speaker 1: not necessarily creativity. For the example, Sorry, I'm shifting slightly,
36:47
Speaker 1: but let's say the example in the what was it
36:50
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixties. I think the blue tit in England?
36:55
Speaker 1: I think started down in the South of England milk
36:57
Speaker 1: bottles that were delivered with the silver foil tops left
37:01
Speaker 1: outside people's doors. For quite a period of time this
37:06
Speaker 1: had just never happened. And then I think it starts
37:09
Speaker 1: in Southampton. Somebody observed a blue ted flying down, landing
37:15
Speaker 1: on the edge of the bottle and pecking its way
37:18
Speaker 1: through the silver foil in order to get to the
37:20
Speaker 1: cream on the top of the bottle, and within two
37:25
Speaker 1: weeks that was being seen in the North of England.
37:28
Speaker 1: That behavioral characteristic Okay, that's not that's not playing, So
37:33
Speaker 1: I admit I'm slightly twisting thing. But that is creative.
37:37
Speaker 1: That is absolutely an expression of creativity. There there were
37:43
Speaker 1: there were other things that they could have eaten, but
37:46
Speaker 1: they found a way in which to sort of exploit
37:50
Speaker 1: their environment for for for gain. But which I agree
37:56
Speaker 1: ties in with your idea that that playing is if
38:00
Speaker 1: actively developing a skill that's going to be useful to them.
38:02
Speaker 1: But this is this is I think, I think, I
38:04
Speaker 1: hope we're talking about the same thing because this is
38:06
Speaker 1: why we are. We go back to the idea that
38:08
Speaker 1: but that you know that I'm not using necessarily Chinese
38:12
Speaker 1: people of not being creative. But if you do surround
38:14
Speaker 1: people by monotone architecture, let's say I think you do,
38:17
Speaker 1: you're creating an environment that is less poisonous for or
38:20
Speaker 1: less stimulating for creativity. So I think that's that that's
38:23
Speaker 1: sort of the theme. Really.
38:26
Speaker 2: The irony though, is that the Soviet Union you mentioned
38:29
Speaker 2: earlier certainly encouraged creativity despite the fact that they were
38:36
Speaker 2: perpetuating non creative environments.
38:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so, Yeah, but just not necessarily in
38:44
Speaker 1: an artistic sense. So I suppose creativity. You know, what
38:47
Speaker 1: we what we haven't really dealt with is is the
38:50
Speaker 1: idea that creativity encompass is a whole lot more than
38:53
Speaker 1: just artistic creation. And exactly like you say, I mean,
38:56
Speaker 1: the the technological advancements that were made by the Soviet
39:00
Speaker 1: Union or have been made by Chinese or you know,
39:03
Speaker 1: now under the spotlight, the Iranians are phenomenal. Now, is
39:07
Speaker 1: that at the expense of the sort of the art
39:11
Speaker 1: or is that alongside great leaps of creation in the art?
39:17
Speaker 1: I don't know.
39:17
Speaker 2: Well, I mean people will take because a lot of
39:22
Speaker 2: what we think is creative has also been driven by
39:26
Speaker 2: corporate interests as well as government interests. Jackson Pollaker mentioned
39:31
Speaker 2: the beginning of the conversation, I mean, he was a
39:34
Speaker 2: CIA asset. He's despite the fact that he's so famous,
39:39
Speaker 2: and he created art that is worth millions and millions
39:43
Speaker 2: and millions of dollars, which I think is absurd because
39:48
Speaker 2: he literally ran and threw paint on the canvas. But
39:51
Speaker 2: the the reason for that was because it was the US.
39:55
Speaker 2: The CIA was wanting to do something to show the
40:00
Speaker 2: Soviet Union during the Cold War that the US was different.
40:06
Speaker 2: It was it had nothing really to do with art.
40:08
Speaker 2: It had everything to do with with geopolitics, which also
40:11
Speaker 2: is pretty interesting.
40:15
Speaker 1: It's fascinating. Yeah. But and what this is, the other
40:17
Speaker 1: element to it is that art, throughout the ages, art
40:22
Speaker 1: has been used very very effectively as a as a
40:27
Speaker 1: you know, an information tool or a critical part in
40:30
Speaker 1: the information war. You think of how we talked about
40:34
Speaker 1: cathedrals and whatnot. I mean, well, would stuck okay, yeah,
40:39
Speaker 1: all right, yeah, but I but really I think I
40:41
Speaker 1: just mean the sort of following the money and the
40:43
Speaker 1: storytelling and the creation of art, not just for art's sake,
40:48
Speaker 1: but the creation because of it, because it tells a
40:51
Speaker 1: particular story, it sends a message. And then when we
40:54
Speaker 1: get into the financial element of it, and rather than
40:57
Speaker 1: the artist deciding that they're going to create a particular thing,
41:00
Speaker 1: the commissioning of a work of art or of a
41:03
Speaker 1: particular building in order that a message is sent. That
41:08
Speaker 1: is again that that's been a very very important part
41:12
Speaker 1: of art really forever, and the part that it's played
41:16
Speaker 1: in so many sort of cultural changes during the history
41:25
Speaker 1: of really all countries. You know, you think again, to
41:28
Speaker 1: talk about the Soviet Union or nowest China, whatever it is,
41:32
Speaker 1: I think everybody would be able to bring into their
41:34
Speaker 1: mind the the sort of the propaganda propagandized artwork of
41:39
Speaker 1: that period. Again, it's a really really critical element, isn't it.
41:44
Speaker 2: Actually Some of the most famous art of the twentieth
41:49
Speaker 2: century is sort of communist propaganda. I mean we all
41:52
Speaker 2: know the famous the Stalinist ask on artwork for example.
41:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it is, it's absolutely, it's very very distinctive
42:04
Speaker 1: and and and historically, I think really really important. I
42:08
Speaker 1: suppose now looking at where where we are now, you know,
42:11
Speaker 1: what's the what's the contemporary equivalent? I can't really think
42:15
Speaker 1: of anything off the top of my head that is
42:17
Speaker 1: distinct Yeah, exactly, Yeah, but seriously, it's a it's a
42:20
Speaker 1: serious point. This is where I go back to the
42:22
Speaker 1: flipping cars on the motorway. They are so dull. What
42:25
Speaker 1: does it what is it saying about about where we're,
42:29
Speaker 1: where we are, where we're going?
42:30
Speaker 2: As a it's yes, you're right, but it's more than that.
42:35
Speaker 2: If you if you turn on Cartoon Network, which which
42:38
Speaker 2: is supposedly for kids, it all looks the same. If
42:43
Speaker 2: you turn on MTV. I tell you, if you turn
42:47
Speaker 2: on m t V, it all sounds the same. Uh,
42:51
Speaker 2: you go right across the board, you fly into cities.
42:54
Speaker 2: Now you fly to major cities and they all look
42:57
Speaker 2: the same from the air.
43:01
Speaker 1: They do. This is very true. Yeah, So what's going
43:06
Speaker 1: to come? Is there going to be a reaction against this?
43:09
Speaker 1: I mean we've seen the I forget now what it's called.
43:13
Speaker 1: I did a piece on the on the UK column
43:15
Speaker 1: News not that longo about the creation of human generated
43:20
Speaker 1: book sort of logo. Now I can't quite bring it
43:25
Speaker 1: to mind. But that's being done with music. So now
43:28
Speaker 1: I think at music that's being produced for CD or record.
43:33
Speaker 1: You can you can look at the cover of it, Charles,
43:40
Speaker 1: is that not a thing?
43:43
Speaker 2: Six? I think CDs ended like in.
43:48
Speaker 1: Is that right? Okay? I did not know that. Well,
43:50
Speaker 1: I've only ever listened to records, but yeah, the records
43:54
Speaker 1: are great. But anyway, okay, well, a record, it will
43:58
Speaker 1: tell you whether or not it's it's been generated, it's
44:00
Speaker 1: been produced by a human, which I the thing is,
44:03
Speaker 1: I don't know quite what how how strict that is.
44:07
Speaker 1: And we think about the incredible liberty is taken with
44:09
Speaker 1: food labeling. If you're going to say it's human generated,
44:13
Speaker 1: I mean AI hasn't been used at any point because
44:16
Speaker 1: this is the other the other element is well, where
44:19
Speaker 1: where's the line? You know, if you consider that AI
44:23
Speaker 1: is in effect something that could be used as a
44:27
Speaker 1: factory worker in the way that you're only expecting it
44:31
Speaker 1: to do just the one thing, and it's not going
44:33
Speaker 1: to have a better idea. It is simply going to
44:36
Speaker 1: perform X task. It's not a it's not a creator.
44:40
Speaker 1: It is simply fulfilling a function. But but is that,
44:45
Speaker 1: you know, does one consider that that is cheating or
44:48
Speaker 1: if we now got to the stage where well, you know,
44:50
Speaker 1: it's just it's accepted. It is just it's easier to
44:55
Speaker 1: just use AI for that, and it doesn't it doesn't
44:57
Speaker 1: diminish the overall product.
44:59
Speaker 2: Or intention though, isn't it intention? I'll give you another
45:04
Speaker 2: interesting example, since we spoke about cartoons earlier. I don't
45:08
Speaker 2: know if you know this actually, but remember the old
45:10
Speaker 2: Bugs Bunny cartoons from the nineteen seventies when they had
45:14
Speaker 2: mel Blank doing all the voices for example, And I mean,
45:19
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know that one of those cartoons,
45:22
Speaker 2: which averaged around seven to ten minutes, took about nine
45:26
Speaker 2: months to draw with a team of like hundred people.
45:29
Speaker 1: Right.
45:29
Speaker 2: Everything was hand done everything, and I mean we we
45:36
Speaker 2: remember them with great fondness, and then something happened in
45:40
Speaker 2: the nineties pixel I didn't like what I was seeing,
45:44
Speaker 2: this introduction of sort of CGI animation, and it has
45:49
Speaker 2: its place, I suppose today, but I don't know of
45:55
Speaker 2: many animations now that are hand drawn. It seems to
46:00
Speaker 2: almost be a last art and I really hope that
46:02
Speaker 2: there will be a return to that.
46:06
Speaker 1: I would hope. So I think it is what even
46:09
Speaker 1: if they don't know it. I think this is the
46:11
Speaker 1: thing that people get being railroaded into a position where
46:15
Speaker 1: the thought process is not even necessarily occurring. I mean,
46:21
Speaker 1: if we go back to the motorway, I don't think
46:24
Speaker 1: many people will be consciously thinking, gosh, I am being
46:27
Speaker 1: deprived of a sensory experience here, because I'm just looking
46:30
Speaker 1: at hundreds and hundreds of cars that all look exactly
46:33
Speaker 1: the same. And I think it's only when you see
46:36
Speaker 1: a vintage motor passing the other way or you overtake
46:40
Speaker 1: it usually unlikely it's going to be the other way
46:43
Speaker 1: around that you something sort of goes off in your
46:46
Speaker 1: brain and you think, wow, that just it's just a
46:48
Speaker 1: different thing. It's a different time, it just looks fantastic.
46:53
Speaker 1: Are people going to react against it? I mean, I
46:55
Speaker 1: really hope they are, And I think it's one of
46:56
Speaker 1: these one of these talking points that is non denominational.
47:01
Speaker 1: I think people can absolutely unite in the face of
47:06
Speaker 1: the constant march of let's say, AI, you know, really
47:10
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you think about climate change, or gender
47:14
Speaker 1: or any of the incredibly sort of thorny topics that
47:18
Speaker 1: usually don't go well in conversation if somebody's of the
47:22
Speaker 1: belief that they are supposed to think differently from you,
47:26
Speaker 1: whereas AI, whether it be in relation to it taking
47:32
Speaker 1: work that could or should be done by human beings,
47:36
Speaker 1: or just creating a decision making process apparently creating a
47:42
Speaker 1: decision making process that frankly is not the preserve of
47:45
Speaker 1: a machine should absolutely be done by human being. That
47:48
Speaker 1: I extend that to creativity. I think that certainly I'm
47:51
Speaker 1: yet to have a conversation with anyone who thinks that
47:54
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence is universally a good thing and we should
47:57
Speaker 1: absolutely be pursuing it without question. I think everybody does
48:01
Speaker 1: have that sense of reservation, even if they don't quite
48:04
Speaker 1: know how to articulate that yet, and sadly, I think
48:07
Speaker 1: that for those in education, I know, you know, we've
48:10
Speaker 1: already talked about handwriting and use of computers, and probably
48:14
Speaker 1: for a lot of people only being able to create
48:16
Speaker 1: art through a computer, which I think is a terrible tragedy.
48:19
Speaker 1: But I think it's only going to have to go
48:22
Speaker 1: further down that track before people react against it. Sadly,
48:26
Speaker 1: I think the problem with these things is are such
48:28
Speaker 1: fanfare around them and the messaging at the outset. Certainly
48:32
Speaker 1: it has been within the United Kingdom. You know, we've
48:34
Speaker 1: all been given the impression from the government and sort
48:38
Speaker 1: of mass media that this is this is absolutely a
48:40
Speaker 1: good thing and it should be celebrated and it should
48:41
Speaker 1: be used by children. I think it's totally notly inappropriate.
48:44
Speaker 1: But I can see why people would follow that train
48:46
Speaker 1: of thought in the first instance, because they are giving
48:49
Speaker 1: to trusting those voices. And I think it'll be within
48:52
Speaker 1: five years or so that people see the consequences and
48:55
Speaker 1: become demoralized and then react against it. I'm hoping that
48:59
Speaker 1: that will happen more quickly and that people will start
49:01
Speaker 1: to react and start to start change. But that's an
49:04
Speaker 1: interesting one though. On the bugs, bunny thing, because what
49:06
Speaker 1: the actually, I have to say, the person that sprang
49:07
Speaker 1: to mind for me was Raymond Briggs. I don't know
49:10
Speaker 1: if you're familiar with The Snowman, which was created in
49:15
Speaker 1: I think he wrote the book in eighty one or
49:17
Speaker 1: eighty two, and then it was turned into an absolute
49:21
Speaker 1: lovely cartoon or you know, all hand drawn, every frame
49:24
Speaker 1: hand drawn, and he and then they they created another story,
49:30
Speaker 1: a sort of you know, like a sequel, quite a
49:33
Speaker 1: lot of years later, and his observation, exactly like you're
49:37
Speaker 1: saying with Bugs Bunny, was that they had gone from
49:41
Speaker 1: really authentic, hand drawn, traditional creation of what was effectively
49:48
Speaker 1: a cartoon to something that really wasn't quite like that.
49:51
Speaker 1: But actually his observation was also the number of the
49:54
Speaker 1: number of people that had involved when Raymond Briggs had
49:57
Speaker 1: created the original back in I say, I think it
50:00
Speaker 1: was the very early eighties that was done with a
50:03
Speaker 1: very small team, very small number of people who were
50:06
Speaker 1: just industrious and capable, and that that evolved into an
50:11
Speaker 1: enormous team of people apparently to produce the same result
50:16
Speaker 1: and making use of computers. And his point, which I
50:19
Speaker 1: think is where which is my start point for this
50:22
Speaker 1: whole debate is people are just not as able as
50:27
Speaker 1: they once were, and that what we get thrown at
50:31
Speaker 1: us is not really doesn't constitute art or genuine creativity
50:36
Speaker 1: because it's just there's just not a sufficient degree of skill. Yeah.
50:40
Speaker 2: I was alluding to that earlier when I was talking
50:42
Speaker 2: about boredom. I mean, the attention economy, where you are
50:45
Speaker 2: constantly kept wired, stops you from being bored. And absolutely
50:51
Speaker 2: creativity requires space, right, Creativity doesn't require only a stimulus,
51:00
Speaker 2: need space in order to be creative. And if you
51:02
Speaker 2: don't have space, you kill creativity. And I think the
51:06
Speaker 2: education system, you mean you also mentioned that I think schooling,
51:10
Speaker 2: public schooling particularly is a wonderful way to destroy creativity.
51:15
Speaker 2: I mean, it's all it's all built on memorization, like
51:20
Speaker 2: remembering stuff, compliance and you know, correct answers.
51:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is totally. I couldn't agree more. In fact,
51:29
Speaker 1: the other the other element, which I think it's not
51:31
Speaker 1: really given that much regard, and I have to caveat, well,
51:36
Speaker 1: not caveat, or I'll go on and qualify it. But
51:39
Speaker 1: one other area in which this is very obviously changed
51:43
Speaker 1: is the conduct of military operations. Let's say, and whilst
51:51
Speaker 1: I'm not advocating for, you know, more slaughter and more
51:55
Speaker 1: waging of war. If you read account of some of
52:00
Speaker 1: the more weird and wonderful things that were done during
52:04
Speaker 1: the Second World War in particular, then it is so
52:08
Speaker 1: so different from the way in which people are not
52:12
Speaker 1: just well, I suppose, yes, taught, but the way in
52:15
Speaker 1: which soldiers are trained and the sorts of things that
52:18
Speaker 1: they come up with. Now, a very good example would
52:22
Speaker 1: be the Crete affair run by Patrick Lee Firmer and
52:27
Speaker 1: Billy Moss capturing a German general and you know the
52:35
Speaker 1: use of mental agility as well as sort of physical
52:41
Speaker 1: resilience to achieve a totally disproportionate asymmetric effect. I mean,
52:46
Speaker 1: the Second World was absolutely littered with that, and part
52:48
Speaker 1: of that was because people were pulled from all sorts
52:52
Speaker 1: of different disciplines and asked to do this, that and
52:55
Speaker 1: the other. Now, again, just to reiterate the point, are
52:58
Speaker 1: not at all saying that we need to spend more
53:02
Speaker 1: time fighting wars. But it's just another interesting observation. Whereas
53:06
Speaker 1: now and I can say this is absolute personal experience.
53:08
Speaker 1: You go into a military environment, a training environment, where
53:12
Speaker 1: supposed to be learning how to plan and the whole
53:15
Speaker 1: point of the plan is to effectively outwit and overcome
53:18
Speaker 1: the enemy. And yet ninety nine percent of the results
53:24
Speaker 1: of the people put through that process, put on that
53:26
Speaker 1: course just going to be the same, just going to
53:28
Speaker 1: go for the same thing, and that makes them predictable.
53:31
Speaker 1: And I think this is the thing. You know, we
53:33
Speaker 1: are becoming very, very predictable, and that is a bad
53:39
Speaker 1: thing because if you are predictable, then to operate a system,
53:45
Speaker 1: for a state, to operate a system that captures people
53:48
Speaker 1: who are predictable and therefore are going to be compliant,
53:52
Speaker 1: it's much easier. And I think this is what we
53:54
Speaker 1: need to recapture, is this idea that creativity and unpredictability
53:58
Speaker 1: are massive and do actually open up areas of sort
54:03
Speaker 1: of you know, liberty, freedom and all the rest of
54:06
Speaker 1: it that I think we are just losing control under this.
54:08
Speaker 2: MIT found that frequent ched GBT users showed significantly reduced
54:15
Speaker 2: brain activity, indicating lower cognitive engagement. In other words, when
54:20
Speaker 2: we outsource thinking to machines, we start practicing the very
54:23
Speaker 2: cognitive processes that creativity depends on. So we're training ourselves
54:27
Speaker 2: not to struggle, and struggling is where creativity lives.
54:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, gosh, I could not agree with that more,
54:36
Speaker 1: you know, for anyone listening. Okay, just tell me this.
54:39
Speaker 1: How many telephone numbers can you remember off top of
54:42
Speaker 1: your head? How often nowadays, when you're driving more than
54:47
Speaker 1: fifty miles, especially somewhere new, do you look at a
54:51
Speaker 1: map and commit the route to memory and not make
54:54
Speaker 1: a wrong turn? And you know anything else that evolves
55:00
Speaker 1: memory in particular. I mean I was thinking back in
55:02
Speaker 1: the early days of being able to pay or rather
55:07
Speaker 1: not being able to having to pay for stuff with
55:10
Speaker 1: a bank card over the telephone. I absolutely knew my
55:14
Speaker 1: bank card. You know that, that whole what is it,
55:15
Speaker 1: sixteen digit number? I absolutely knew that off by heart. Always.
55:20
Speaker 1: Same thing with telephone numbers, every single telephone number that was,
55:25
Speaker 1: you know, for a friend or work thing whatever. I
55:29
Speaker 1: knew that off the top of my head. And Okay,
55:32
Speaker 1: some of those I do retain now and some I
55:34
Speaker 1: will have picked up. But generally, the way that this
55:38
Speaker 1: has gone for almost everybody is that we have absolutely
55:42
Speaker 1: switched our brains off. And I think another very good
55:46
Speaker 1: frame of reference. If you doubt me on this, find
55:52
Speaker 1: a child who is sort of I don't know, young
55:57
Speaker 1: enough to have not engaged with technology, and read a
56:02
Speaker 1: story with them and then do a comprehension at the
56:04
Speaker 1: end of it and test them on, you know what
56:07
Speaker 1: the name of such and such character was, where the
56:10
Speaker 1: bear ended up in the woods. And I can more
56:13
Speaker 1: or less guarantee that their recall will be absolutely one
56:18
Speaker 1: hundred percent because they don't have First of all, they
56:21
Speaker 1: don't have a load of other nonsense clogging up their mind,
56:25
Speaker 1: you know, full stop. But also they will not have
56:29
Speaker 1: relied even one bit on anything else to remember or
56:32
Speaker 1: to comprehend something that they're doing everything with their brains.
56:36
Speaker 1: And I think that's a very good frame of reference
56:38
Speaker 1: to give you an idea of, you know, And I
56:40
Speaker 1: don't want to want to sort of depress people, but
56:42
Speaker 1: because absolutely all this can be regained. But just as
56:46
Speaker 1: an illustration of how much we've all forgotten because we've
56:50
Speaker 1: had X, Y and Z device supposedly do it for us,
56:53
Speaker 1: supposedly help, well, how does that help? Honestly, it is
56:58
Speaker 1: really not like the brain runs out of room, you know.
57:00
Speaker 1: I think this is a massive fallacy that there's only
57:03
Speaker 1: so much you can remember that is total. To my mind,
57:06
Speaker 1: that is not true, and as somebody, as an example,
57:12
Speaker 1: Alex Thompson of UK column obviously sort of step back
57:17
Speaker 1: to concentrate on Bible translation at the moment. Talking to
57:21
Speaker 1: Alex is just incredible, and not just as he speak
57:24
Speaker 1: multiple languages, but his depth and breadth of knowledge on
57:30
Speaker 1: so many subjects going back over so many years is
57:32
Speaker 1: absolutely phenomenal. And that doesn't mean that I sit there
57:35
Speaker 1: and look at Alex and think goshyeah, there's not going
57:37
Speaker 1: to be anything else going to go into that brain.
57:39
Speaker 1: It's full. That's just not true. So I think again,
57:42
Speaker 1: this realizational, this belief that we are so much more
57:46
Speaker 1: capable of doing more and more and more and more,
57:51
Speaker 1: and we need to remember that and realize it and
57:54
Speaker 1: also realize what the benefits of pushing and pushing and
57:57
Speaker 1: going further.
57:59
Speaker 2: Actually, it's the capacity or ability, Charles, to imagine that
58:06
Speaker 2: things can be different, and it's that imagination that is
58:12
Speaker 2: almost being lost in so many ways due to everything
58:15
Speaker 2: we've spoken about. And I think a lot of that
58:17
Speaker 2: is on purpose and spy design, and it's to keep
58:20
Speaker 2: to keep us distracted and as to keep us not bored.
58:25
Speaker 2: And that's and that's something we have to be aware of.
58:30
Speaker 1: Gosh, we do. Yeah, absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I
58:33
Speaker 1: wonder if should we Well, I'm thinking of sort of
58:39
Speaker 1: content here. I mean, obviously we've got Jake Ferns thousand
58:42
Speaker 1: Words podcast, which is amazing because we watch him sort
58:46
Speaker 1: of develop a picture as he goes. Is that something
58:50
Speaker 1: that we could ever do with you? Would you ever
58:53
Speaker 1: be able to film film and you know, talk about
58:56
Speaker 1: what you're doing at the same times doing And I
58:58
Speaker 1: know that that can be difficult obviously, as you talk,
59:01
Speaker 1: you are in effect distracting yourself from what it is
59:04
Speaker 1: you're creating. But I think it'd be fascinating, given more
59:06
Speaker 1: we've been talking about now, to watch you at work
59:09
Speaker 1: and to see what you're doing and how you get there.
59:11
Speaker 1: I think it'd be fascinating if you thought you were
59:13
Speaker 1: able to do it in such ways to not compromise.
59:15
Speaker 2: There is a wonderful idea. I think let's take about
59:18
Speaker 2: it offline, all right, We'll do that, okay, Charles, I
59:22
Speaker 2: see the time is catching up to us. It's wow.
59:26
Speaker 2: This has been such a wonderful conversation. I really really
59:29
Speaker 2: enjoy turning these cogs a little bit because, as you
59:33
Speaker 2: said a few times, now, creativity is so important and
59:38
Speaker 2: it doesn't get talked about enough.
59:41
Speaker 1: It doesn't, it really doesn't. And I think this is
59:45
Speaker 1: in so far as how the effects are felt when
59:50
Speaker 1: the sort of the shutter came down in twenty twenty,
59:54
Speaker 1: or in twenty sixteen we had the vote to leave
59:58
Speaker 1: the European Union. Whatever is any of these apparently seismic changes.
1:00:03
Speaker 1: I have always thought, well, no problem, because I know
1:00:07
Speaker 1: that the creative spirit of in my case of the Brits,
1:00:12
Speaker 1: the British will take over. People will absolutely work this
1:00:15
Speaker 1: one out. They will come up with all sorts of
1:00:18
Speaker 1: innovative and fantastic, weird, quirky ways to deal with it.
1:00:24
Speaker 1: And I'm afraid to say that's not really what I'm
1:00:27
Speaker 1: seeing now. So more creativity, more time being bored, more
1:00:32
Speaker 1: time spent really really thinking and developing around the problem,
1:00:38
Speaker 1: because as I say, I think the results will be
1:00:41
Speaker 1: absolutely well worth it.
1:00:42
Speaker 2: All right, Charles, I'll catch up with you next week
1:00:44
Speaker 2: and hopefully with Mike, with
1:00:47
Speaker 1: Mike exactly, yeah, super all right to say that is