Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / The Force of Storytelling: How Indiana Jones & Star Wars Shaped Thomas Riddle's Mission

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The Force of Storytelling: How Indiana Jones & Star Wars Shaped Thomas Riddle's Mission · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Hey, welcome to the
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Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm David Berner,
0:34
joined by co -host Jeremy Mikla, and we're really
0:37
thrilled today to have with us Thomas Riddle.
0:40
Thomas is an award -winning educator and assistant
0:43
director at Roper Mountain Science Center and
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has a couple books, and one of them, Imaginary
0:49
Education, has been gaining some traction lately
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and is available on Amazon. And we wanted to
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invite Thomas on to talk about all his experiences.
1:00
And you're even in a couple of documentaries
1:04
as well, right? Yeah, we have. We've had some
1:08
cool experiences with our adventures over time
1:13
in this teaching and learning field. And so,
1:15
yeah, there's been a couple of documentaries
1:16
that we've been able to be a part of. Awesome.
1:19
Yeah. And do you mind kind of just telling us
1:22
a little bit of the background of all your years
1:25
in education, teacher, principal, college professor,
1:29
all of that. How did you get to being with us
1:32
today and talking about all these things? Yeah,
1:34
awesome. So thank you. Thanks so much for having
1:36
me on, guys. Really honored and excited to be
1:39
here. So this is my 35th year in education. It's
1:44
been a joy and it's been a lot. And I've been
1:48
very blessed to have a lot of different opportunities
1:51
and a lot of different platforms. At heart, I
1:55
always call myself a teacher. I'm a classroom
1:57
teacher at heart. And so I was a social studies
1:59
teacher by trade, started out three years in
2:02
middle school, and then I went to high school
2:05
and did most of my career after that in the high
2:09
school level. So I've been a classroom teacher.
2:12
I was assistant principal and then principal
2:15
of Freshman Academy, which was an incredible
2:18
school within the school model that we created
2:19
at Malden High School, where I was principal
2:22
or assistant principal at the time and then had
2:26
a lot of success with that. went to the district
2:28
office where I was fortunate to be the social
2:31
studies coordinator for Greenville County Schools,
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which is was kind of a dream job for me that
2:36
I was aspiring to for a long time as a young
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history teacher. And Greenville County is we're
2:40
in the upstate of South Carolina, and it's a
2:43
large district of seventy seven thousand students.
2:45
It's a single county school districts of just
2:47
over 100 facilities. So, yeah, I was. an opportunity
2:51
to get a lot of different schools, learn a lot
2:53
from a lot of different principals and teachers
2:56
and instructional coaches, while also providing
2:58
instructional support and curriculum writing
3:01
for those teachers and those principals. Also
3:06
during that time, I had a chance to serve as
3:10
an adjunct professor of education at Miami Modder,
3:12
at Furman University. And that was a lot of fun.
3:15
Did that for 10 years. And love teaching the
3:19
undergrads. I'd been out of the classroom for
3:20
a while at that time. And so that gave me a way
3:23
to get back in the classroom, which I really
3:24
liked. And it was during my tenure at the district
3:29
office when our superintendent tapped me on the
3:33
shoulder to ask if I would be willing to take
3:37
over a project that was really what's put me
3:41
where I am today. And it was the design process
3:45
of our school district's flagship steam -based
3:48
middle school, Fisher Middle School. and the
3:51
gentleman who had been running that program from
3:54
the ground up in the early days as we were planning
3:57
it was called away and left the district for
4:01
an opportunity at Harvard. And so I tagged in
4:04
and it was fantastic. So that's where I really
4:06
went down this road of learning about the impact
4:09
of creating immersive spaces and experiences.
4:12
We were able to not create this beautiful building,
4:16
which we ended up with. But we created the building
4:20
around the curriculum. So we got first things
4:23
first. And so we wanted to plan out what the
4:26
experiences were going to be with those students
4:28
and what we were teaching them. And then we built
4:30
the building around that. And that's kind of
4:33
got me thinking about this impact of how the
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role that immersive environments can have on
4:43
education. did that through completion to the
4:46
handoff portion of the principal that they hired
4:49
to run the school, the first principal. And then
4:52
I've been at Rokemont Science Center now for
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11 years. And it's what people call the educational
5:00
Disneyland. We're a very unique 62 acre facility
5:03
with a lot of resources from a living history
5:08
farm and then a natural science building with
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an indoor rainforest with waterfall and a marine
5:14
lab where kids can pet sharks and stingrays.
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And we have a planetarium, largest planetarium
5:19
in South Carolina. I mean, it's all this on my
5:21
school district. And so I get to really play
5:24
in the sandbox with an incredible staff where
5:27
we're putting a lot of this, what I've learned
5:30
myself and learned from others to practice about
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how to create these hands -on engaging experiences
5:35
for kids that are not only applicable for a field
5:37
trip opportunity like we have, uh, what we do,
5:40
but also Apple in the classroom. That's, that's
5:42
what my book was all about. Awesome. Well, I
5:46
have, I have a couple of follow -ups, uh, for
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one, I have to just let you know that this is
5:51
now there's three social studies teachers, uh,
5:54
in this podcast right now. Yeah. Yeah. Both taught
6:01
social studies as well. So, um, I had to ask
6:03
you, I'll put you on the spot a little bit. Is
6:05
there, is there a particular, uh, unit that you
6:07
can remember with the social studies standards
6:10
and that that you really love doing? Is there
6:13
like one in particular? Oh, my gosh, man, there's
6:16
so much because I taught I taught everything
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from world geography to AP Euro and AP US. Everything
6:24
the only thing I didn't teach in social studies,
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I think, is is econ go and econ. But I integrated
6:28
those in, you know, it is good to get your teachers
6:31
integrated into what you're teaching. But I think
6:33
my favorite unit. of everything that I taught
6:37
probably was the hero's journey unit that I created
6:42
for our ancient history classes. To get ninth
6:47
graders excited about ancient history at 8 .30
6:50
in the morning, you got to do something, right?
6:52
And so that was an incredible... incredible unit
6:56
that we carried out over the course of a year
6:59
about the importance of storytelling and the
7:01
power of story. And we use Star Wars to learn
7:04
ancient history and mythology as part of that.
7:07
So I think that's probably one of my favorites.
7:09
Yeah. And I know that's a topic that I think
7:11
is going to come up here in a minute. So we're
7:15
not going to forget about that part. But you
7:18
also caught my attention here. You talked about
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the educational Disneyland, right? You know,
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I would imagine like, to me that I get excited
7:29
by that. And I'm, you know, you know, thrilled
7:32
to be able to discuss that with you. But I imagine
7:35
that when you mentioned that in some circles,
7:37
even within the education setting that you get
7:39
a lot of high rolls. Yeah, well, you know, you
7:44
would think that I get more than than I do. I
7:47
remember years ago when I first started, I guess
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right after I did my TED talk the first time,
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or TEDx talk, I had some people, I know what
7:55
it was, I wrote, I took the TEDx talk and I pretty
7:58
much condensed it into an article for Edutopia.
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And then some of the comments, and this was 2000,
8:06
oh gosh, this is 15. 17 years ago, something
8:09
like that. And there were some comments about,
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we don't need entertainment in school. We don't
8:16
need roller coasters and merry -go -round. And
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I was like, you're missing the point completely.
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We're talking about just good teaching and using
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good design, the principles of design to engage
8:30
kids into a story. The three of us had it really
8:34
easy in what we teach, the subjects we teach.
8:38
because I would tell my students, you know, when
8:41
you come to my class, all we're doing is telling
8:43
the stories and I would lure them into it. You
8:45
know, when the first first day of school, we
8:47
mean, I'm trying to get to know them, right.
8:49
And the guys have, hey, you know, this I'm Coach
8:51
Riddle and I was a football coach. Yeah, yeah,
8:57
yeah. OK. And and so. I'd say, hey, what would
9:02
you guys do this summer? I love movies. Anybody
9:04
see a good movie? And then, you know, I saw this
9:06
movie, that movie. I'd write it on the board.
9:08
Say, okay, great. Anybody can read a good book.
9:10
Pure Hands, you know. Write the book up there.
9:14
Good, I need to check that one out sometime.
9:15
Anybody like good TV shows? Trying to get, no,
9:17
you guys are, you know. What's your favorite
9:18
TV shows? And I would write the TV shows up there
9:21
and then I'd stand back and say, okay, so we're
9:22
just gonna categorize this. So what it looks
9:25
like is that you guys love action. You love adventure.
9:28
You love romance. You like all of these different
9:31
things. You like mystery. Some of you like some
9:35
horror. OK, that's great. All right. Well, what
9:39
you're going to discover is that all these stories
9:42
that you like have already occurred in the past
9:45
and currently are occurring in the present. And
9:49
there's nothing really that has happened before
9:51
that or there's nothing that's that has already
9:55
happened before, except. total annihilation of
9:58
all, you know, all humans. And we're not going
10:00
to go, you know, pray against that. But other
10:03
than that, the love and action and adventure.
10:07
Every day you come in this class, that's what
10:08
we're going to talk about. And I'm going to show
10:10
you how to apply it to your life and how to learn
10:11
from it. And so that was easy with story. That's
10:14
really, I think, where I cut my teeth on the
10:16
importance of story that now I harp on so much.
10:19
And I really learned a lot about that from the
10:21
Imagineers is the power of story and how everything
10:24
is rooted in that. So. So I think that's kind
10:28
of where I really, from the beginning, because
10:31
I grew up loving stories as a child and had parents
10:36
that encouraged me with great stories. And I
10:40
think that was an easy on -ramp to what I've
10:45
been doing, I'm doing today, and it's pretty
10:47
much I've been doing it my whole life, using
10:49
stories to teach. So I think that's more of the...
10:57
When I start bringing people back around with
10:59
the education in Disneyland, it's not so much
11:01
about, hey, let's have turkey legs and roller
11:05
coasters. It's like, no, how are you actually
11:10
creating an environment in which your kids want
11:12
to come back day after day after day, and they're
11:15
excited to do so? and they're excited to pick
11:18
up what you're laying down. And so as a classroom
11:20
teacher, that's always a secret sauce, right?
11:22
Well, what if I have learned some things along
11:24
the way that could help you do that? And it just
11:26
happens to come from some of the greatest designers,
11:28
experienced designers in the world, and that's
11:30
the Imagineers. And then you start getting people's
11:32
attention when you talk like that. Yeah, I could
11:35
just really envision you in front of the classroom
11:38
of kids and just like... All right, everyone
11:41
settle down here. We're going to start this story,
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you know, and then you just kind of go into it.
11:45
And like you said, history lends itself really,
11:48
I think, to that very well. Right. But, you know,
11:52
like, and you can take this the imagineering
11:55
route if you want to, or if you want to, to kind
11:58
of focus in on what does it look like to then
12:00
develop into the stories through which you're
12:03
going to teach the lesson. What did that look
12:07
like for you? Yeah, so For me, it was fairly
12:14
easy, again, because maybe not all social studies
12:17
teachers look at it like this. I've had my fair
12:20
share in the past that taught history is one
12:23
darn thing after another. Dates and facts, I
12:26
always have, you guys have had it. Do we have
12:28
to know dates in this class? Do we have to know,
12:30
is this gonna be on the test? I'm like, no, we're
12:32
gonna get past all of that. And the way I would
12:36
look, I guess, for how the story I would tell
12:41
is what part of the unit that we're studying
12:46
in this period in history, how can I find things
12:50
that... appeal to them, not just appeal to them,
12:57
actually are relevant to their lives. Excuse
12:59
me, I wouldn't blank on the term relevant. It's
13:00
been a long day. How can I find things that are
13:03
relevant to their lives? What are the things
13:05
that we're going to talk about that are timeless
13:07
lessons that they can learn from this? And so
13:09
I would always, the stories that I would kind
13:12
of hone down in on were the ones that felt like
13:15
either they had the greatest impact on where
13:17
we are today or the kids could really relate
13:20
to whatever. those characters, those figures
13:24
in history are experiencing. Does that make sense?
13:27
Yeah, I kind of think of it like I remembered,
13:29
you know, when talking about American or past
13:33
the American Revolution, time founding of the,
13:35
you know, the Constitution and, and some of the
13:37
early years of the republic and talking about
13:40
how you'd have a guy like George Washington and
13:42
he's got in his cabinet, you know, both Thomas
13:45
Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton and, and I,
13:47
and I'm like, okay, George is the guy, he's driving
13:50
the car and he's got the two naughty kids in
13:52
the back seat that can't stop bickering at each
13:54
other and he turns around and yells, I'm going
13:56
to stop this car if the two of you don't start
13:59
getting along kind of thing, right? And I think
14:01
you lean into some of those scenarios, but you
14:06
make it fit to what those experiences your kids
14:10
have. That's right. That's a great point. because
14:14
I have a young man who came to a talk that I
14:18
gave at a local venue recently on all of this,
14:23
on Imaginary Education, and he's a former student.
14:26
And gosh, he's probably 36, 37 years old now.
14:30
And I haven't seen him in years. And he came
14:32
and he said, hey, coach, I still remember the
14:36
story of Gilgamesh that you told us vividly.
14:39
I can still tell you those. the aspects of Gilgamesh's
14:45
life and what we learned from it. But when I
14:47
told that story, and this was when we were talking
14:49
about the importance of this ancient history
14:51
class and talking about oral history, how oral
14:53
traditions were important and how oral history
14:56
is passed on, I would literally take a period
14:58
and I would act out the story of Gilgamesh. But
15:01
I would often do it in terminology that was they
15:04
can relate to, you know, and vernacular they
15:07
relate, they can relate to. And it worked. You
15:10
know, you have to make it again. You have to
15:11
make it relevant, relevant to them. You know,
15:13
my three R's that I've taught undergrad for year
15:16
undergrads for years and also teachers I've worked
15:18
with is, you know, the three R's traditionally
15:21
are reading, writing and arithmetic. Right. But
15:24
for me, it's rigor, relevance and relationship.
15:28
You know, One, no meaningful learning occurs
15:34
without a meaningful relationship that's happening.
15:37
And then secondly, how do you make the learning
15:42
relevant to their lives? And if you have that
15:44
relationship and if you can make it relevant
15:46
and they're interested, then you can make it
15:48
as rigorous as you want because you got them
15:51
now. They're locked in. Yeah. So here one. You
15:56
know, if you think about this, you're creating
15:59
those situations, and you're being very intentional
16:03
in your way of doing it, but schools aren't intentionally
16:07
designed to support that for the vast majority
16:11
of our teachers and students. Is there something
16:15
that was going well with your situation that
16:19
contributed to? your ability to be able to bring
16:23
those experiences to students that's missing
16:26
in other schools? Yeah, that's a great question.
16:32
You know, I often will tell principals and teachers,
16:39
we know what's good practice. If we're good professionals,
16:42
if we're good at our craft, then we know what
16:45
best practice is. And it often comes down to
16:50
a matter of will. Will I do what I know is best
16:54
for my students? And that's often providing these
16:56
experiences that are not time blocked, that are
17:00
not regimented into a district or school curriculum
17:08
pacing guide. I know there are things that we
17:11
have that we have to abide by, but I was always
17:15
the one that was kind of pushed the envelope,
17:17
I guess. And because I knew what at the end of
17:21
the day, what I was doing when I was providing
17:22
for students worked well, and they were successful,
17:25
and they had results. And so I was always trying
17:28
to find ways that I could move outside the box,
17:34
the textbook. Don't even get me started on textbooks,
17:37
you know, because that's the whole story. But
17:43
But I just want to encourage everyone, look,
17:46
you have more freedom than you realize, I think.
17:50
Be upfront and be honest and forthcoming with
17:53
your department chairs, with your principals
17:55
and say, look, this is what I know to be true.
17:57
This is what I know works. Then I'm going to
18:01
teach it in this way within the parameters that
18:05
you've given me. But before the end of the year,
18:07
I'm going to cover all these standards. but give
18:10
me the leeway to do it how I know works and gets
18:12
my kids excited. The first time I was a principal,
18:17
the first faculty I walked into, my first faculty
18:19
meeting, I'd run off all the standards in a big
18:23
binder. I intentionally did this. It was a big
18:25
old binder. And I walked in, I dropped the binder
18:30
down, it thudded on the table, and I said, look,
18:36
before the end of the year, this is all the content.
18:39
We have to teach. And I held there and I said,
18:43
my job is to support you and to do it in the
18:47
most innovative ways that you think will work
18:49
best for your kids. These are the state standards.
18:53
This is what we have to teach. But I want you
18:55
to be as creative and innovative as you can within
18:57
that. It's my job to help you do that. And so
19:00
we created interdisciplinary courses. that allow
19:04
teachers to have this cross -pollination of subjects.
19:06
I know that's not everybody's experience. The
19:09
only reason I mentioned this is because I hope
19:11
that there's a principle, if there's just one
19:12
principle that hears that and say, you know what?
19:15
Hey, I've been thinking about this. Maybe I should
19:17
just have the will to do it. Don't teach things
19:21
in isolation. Show the connectivity. And so I
19:24
think these are things that even if you don't
19:27
have it, you know, you don't have that building
19:29
level support. you can do things within your
19:32
classroom to create experiences for students
19:38
if you'll just think beyond the box. And that's
19:40
kind of also what the, you know, I give examples
19:42
of that in the book. And, you know, I'm available
19:46
online and I'm on most socials. If anybody has
19:50
any questions about what that would look like,
19:51
I'm happy to chat about that. And you mentioned
19:56
thinking outside the box a little bit. I wanted
19:59
to ask you a very blunt question here, but what
20:03
does Star Wars have to do with world history?
20:06
What do you know about Yoda? It has everything.
20:13
Can I give you a blunt answer back? It has everything
20:15
to do with world history. Have you heard of a
20:18
guy named Joseph Campbell? Thank you. So for
20:22
those who haven't, that's your homework assignment.
20:25
So, yeah, I would I would always love the first
20:29
parent or the PTA night, the first open house
20:32
night, you know, and when the parents come, the
20:34
ones that do come, and you give them the classroom
20:37
and you talk about, yeah, your kid's going to
20:39
be writing or watching Star Wars next week. Make
20:41
sure you sign that permission slip, you know,
20:43
and not get the eye rolls there and like, oh,
20:45
really? You know, dad's like, oh, we'll do this
20:48
class or why are we doing this? One is relevant
20:53
to them. OK, it's a hook. It's it's something
20:56
to get their attention. But. But more importantly,
21:00
Lucas was heavily inspired by Joseph Campbell's
21:05
work on the hero's journey, and that all the
21:08
great stories of the world follow the same template,
21:12
if you will. And that's the hero follows the
21:16
same stages. And for world history, when you're
21:20
trying to make kids see the connection between
21:22
something that happened 3 ,000 years ago in their
21:25
own lives, I have to get them emotionally engaged
21:30
with that. And so I would always ask kids, hey,
21:35
if I wanted to get to know somebody, how do I
21:38
do that? What do I? How do I go about it? We've
21:41
got a party we go to. You're a stranger, and
21:44
everybody else is strangers. How do you start
21:46
to get to know someone? We ask questions about
21:48
them. And before long, you start asking enough
21:51
questions. They're starting to tell you stories
21:53
about their life. And so what I wanted, I told
21:55
the kids up front, I said, look, we're going
21:57
to get to know all of these ancient cultures
21:59
through their stories. So the great stories they
22:01
tell. Because the stories we tell reveal our
22:04
hopes, our fears, our dreams. Throughout time,
22:06
they always have. To do that, we had to be able
22:10
to analyze their stories. And, you know, we call
22:12
the myths these days and oftentimes are folklore.
22:16
I talk about the difference between myths and
22:18
folklore and and and what is actually history.
22:23
But I would I would explain to them that studying
22:27
the hero's journey, setting these stages, that
22:30
the that there's that there's similarity between
22:33
Bilbo Baggins or Frodo Baggins and Harry Potter,
22:36
between Luke Skywalker. and and Odysseus, you
22:43
know, I mean, so then they're like, oh, wait,
22:46
because I would ask me, hey, I got them in high
22:48
school and they're in sixth grade in South Carolina.
22:50
You study or ancient mythology in sixth grade.
22:53
How many of you heard of the Odyssey? You know,
22:55
all the tell me about that. So now we're going
22:57
to start to draw these parallels. And so what
22:59
I would do is I created study guys have a whole
23:01
curriculum for this, where we would watch. We
23:05
started out with a new hope. And that was the
23:08
call to adventure. And who is who's the hero,
23:11
Luke Skywalker, who are his hero partners? What
23:15
is what are the threshold guardians that try
23:17
to hold him back from from his adventure like
23:20
the Tusken Raiders or Mos Eisley? And then, you
23:24
know, what's the magic talisman? What gives him
23:26
power like King Arthur? It was it was Excalibur
23:29
for Luke Skywalker. It's his father's sword.
23:31
It was lightsaber. And so so we're looking at
23:34
we're studying actually how to interpret, how
23:37
to analyze myths through watching Star Wars.
23:41
But at the same time, Lucas was heavily influenced
23:44
by world cultures and world history that influenced
23:47
that story. And so, you know, the Jedi are, you
23:51
know, a combination of wearing Franciscan monk
23:55
robes and practicing a type of Taoist philosophy.
24:01
Yoda is nothing more than Taoist sage who lives
24:04
in nature, communing with the Dao, the force.
24:10
And Luke goes to Dagobah, which if you drop the
24:15
H, Dagobah is a stupa, a reliquary in India.
24:20
Literally, the term is Dagobah, where you go
24:22
on pilgrimage to seek enlightenment. So he's
24:26
traveling to Dagobah seeking enlightenment from
24:29
a Daoist sage. And he learns that the force has
24:36
a light side and a dark side. Try to teach a
24:39
ninth grader about Taoism with yin and yang,
24:41
right? And then I'm like, oh, dude, OK, yeah.
24:44
It's the light side of the force and the dark
24:46
side of the force. And there's a little bit of
24:48
light and there's a little bit of dark. Luke
24:51
is light. He loses his hand when he disobeys
24:53
his teacher. And now he's a little bit of dark
24:55
because he's gone a little bit to the dark side.
24:58
Vader is more man than machine, or even more
25:00
machine than man. but he still has some man in
25:03
it. And in Lucas's cosmology, human is light
25:07
and machine is dark. And so, yeah, there's a
25:10
ton of stuff that you can teach. The rise and
25:14
fall of the Roman Empire is, I mean, there's
25:17
a Senate, there's a chancellor. Oh, chancellor,
25:21
also you connect with the rise and fall of Nazi
25:23
Germany. So I drew the parallels there all the
25:26
time. um you go to Phantom Menace and we've got
25:29
a chariot race with the podracers right so it
25:31
goes on and on and on and so that's why i say
25:34
very bluntly what does it not have to do with
25:37
with world history does that make sense at all
25:40
yeah i love it yeah absolutely and i i like that
25:43
you actually um that you brought up uh Odysseus
25:46
to the Odyssey. And because that that arc is
25:49
so common, like the things that, you know, he
25:52
goes on this adventure and then there's the obstacles
25:54
that are keeping him from getting to getting
25:57
back home. Right. And that's like even in modern
25:59
movies, that's a common arc. That's right. I
26:04
like that. Yeah, I'm sorry is the three stages
26:08
of the hero's journey the call to adventure the
26:10
dark or the trials at the end First stage the
26:13
call to adventure the hero light wins. Yay. Look
26:15
at us start, right? Darker the trials is when
26:18
he's starting to get sullied a little bit and
26:20
he's learning the world's starting to kick him
26:21
around and Then that during that dark road of
26:24
trials. He has a choice. He has to make He's
26:27
gonna be tempted He's presented with temptation
26:29
and I'll his choice his decision will either
26:32
make him a hero or the villain Anakin became
26:36
the villain, Luke became the hero, and then it's
26:40
what the hero learns through those trials that
26:43
he then returns, that's the final stage, to his
26:46
people to share the knowledge and the wisdom
26:48
that he's learned. So that's Return of the Jedi.
26:51
Yeah, can we talk a little bit, too, just about
26:54
the student writing that you saw and how the
26:57
hero's journey the project would like, because
27:01
of that connection to those stories and everything,
27:03
it would cause them to really explore themselves
27:08
and kind of bear things of their own life. What
27:11
can you tell us about that experience? Yeah.
27:15
So, you know, again, I taught this unit over
27:18
the course of a year. And so when we went to
27:21
a block, that was when we had a year long course.
27:23
I know some people are on a block schedule. Some
27:26
are traditional. I've done it both. I've done
27:28
a hybrid traditional block. So even on block,
27:31
I would teach it within the within the you know,
27:34
the 90 -minute block period for a semester. But
27:37
at first, the Course, we do the New Hope. In
27:40
the middle, when we're starting to talk about
27:41
Eastern philosophy, that's when we're watching
27:43
Empire Strikes Back. And then when we get the
27:46
Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, that's when
27:48
our teacher turned the Jedi. All that to say
27:50
this, by that point in the year, they've gotten
27:53
to know me. I've developed the relationships
27:56
with them. They trust me. They know that we've
28:00
had a lot of fun. I've challenged them. I'll
28:02
push them. And when I gave them this final writing
28:06
project, they had to apply all like 26 elements
28:11
of the hero's journey throughout these three
28:13
stages to their own life. And they had to write
28:15
about that. And it became very cathartic for
28:19
many kids in some ways. They never had to look
28:23
at the possibility that they're a hero on their
28:26
own journey. And that was my big thing. You have
28:29
heroic elements to you absolutely all day long,
28:33
but you're gonna have choices too. Now in high
28:36
school or later in life, you're always gonna
28:38
have temptations. And it's those decisions that
28:41
you make, it's how you respond to those temptations
28:43
that's gonna put you towards being a greater
28:45
level of hero or starting to drift you towards
28:47
that dark side of being the villain. I would
28:51
tell the kids that, hey, I'm the only one that's
28:55
going to read this. And so write whatever you
28:58
want to write. If I feel like that you're in
29:02
danger in any way, I may have to say something
29:04
to someone because we get into monster combat.
29:06
We get into why we wear masks. We get into those
29:10
things and temptation. And I wanted the kids
29:15
just to have a chance to air it all out. And
29:18
all the years I taught that unit only had one
29:21
one instance where I was a little red flag of
29:24
a young lady talked about her mother abusing
29:27
her of physical abuse. And so I knew the young
29:31
lady had never seen any signs of that in class.
29:35
And when I spoke with her, I said, hey, tell
29:41
me about this. So, yeah, that was that was when
29:44
I was a little she was like. 15. So that's when
29:46
I was like four and five years old. And my mom
29:48
has been in therapy. We've been in therapy and
29:50
all this stuff. And everything's life's good.
29:53
It's all it's fine now. I just need to talk about
29:55
this because I couldn't tell from the writing
29:56
when it was. So I went to the counselor still
29:59
and I said, hey, I want to call the mom on this
30:01
when you want to see this call with me. So yes,
30:03
I call the mom and she's like, hey, yeah. Thank
30:07
you. I knew she was writing about that. She showed
30:09
it to me. This is something we've worked through.
30:11
And so anyway, it was kind of a beautiful, that's
30:14
when it was kind of cathartic for her and for
30:15
her to share. And I would get emails from parents
30:18
that would say, hey, thanks for giving my kids
30:21
a chance to go deep introspectively, to consider
30:25
their own life because they usually don't do
30:26
that. I would have kids always ask me, hey, Coach,
30:29
how long does this have to be? I'm like, as long
30:31
as you want it to be. But I can tell you what,
30:33
it's not going to be like five pages because
30:35
you got a lot of writing here to do. And so I
30:38
would just put no parameters on other than you
30:42
have to hit every element, give it some thought,
30:45
and then we'll go from there. So yeah, that was
30:49
probably the best writing I ever got from them
30:51
is because they were so impassioned in their
30:54
writing. So your work wound up being featured
30:58
in the Disney documentary series timeless heroes,
31:01
correct? Yeah, so is the Indiana Jones documentary.
31:06
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah You know, what was it like to
31:10
have your work being featured in a documentary
31:12
like that? How did that come about? Yeah, so
31:15
that was that was interesting. That was more
31:17
with my Indiana Jones, which we haven't talked
31:19
about which is fine Because I taught with Indy
31:22
as well primarily the Young Indies series. But
31:26
I had cultivated a relationship with some amazing
31:32
people at Lucasfilm over the years, going back
31:35
to 2007, when I became the social aid school
31:39
neighbor for the school district. And when the
31:43
Young Indies series came out, me and my partner
31:46
in crime, Wes Dodgins, he's another history teacher,
31:49
social aid teacher. He and I created these two
31:52
websites, IndyInTheClassroom .com and Star WarsInTheClassroom
31:55
.com. Star Wars came later. But Adventures in
31:59
Learning with Indiana Jones. And so Wes and I
32:01
would create these lesson plans and provide them
32:04
for free charge online for teachers on teaching
32:07
with the Young Indy series. That series came
32:09
out in 92, which was the second year of my teaching.
32:13
I started in 91. And when it first came out,
32:15
I would write lesson plans. video tape it back
32:19
in the days boys and girls of VHS and and then
32:23
I was showing class when where I could find something
32:25
that fit and if you're not familiar with the
32:27
young indie series that's your second homework
32:29
assignment it's some of the best as far as history
32:32
teachers go it's some of the best content I've
32:33
ever used I remember seeing those at that at
32:37
about that time right didn't it kind of come
32:39
from the you know like they started that series
32:41
was a spin -off because of the young Indiana
32:45
Jones segment with River Phoenix that was at
32:47
the start of the last. Yes. So, so, George, you're
32:50
right. Am I thinking of the right thing? I guess
32:51
that's. Yeah, you are. It was. It was. Think
32:55
of Forrest Gump with the bullwhip, right? It
32:59
was a fictional character meeting, experiencing
33:02
real historical events and and meeting real historical
33:06
figures when Indy is nine and 10. And then when
33:10
he's 16 to early twenties. And, you know, for
33:15
instance, most people would not realize that
33:17
he spent extensive time in in Europe in the Great
33:21
War. He fought during World War One and some
33:24
of the best content on on World War One I've
33:27
ever seen anywhere is in those movies. So George
33:30
created the series to be used by history teachers
33:35
in high school, particularly to help teach some
33:40
important concepts. to that we see or the world
33:47
experience in the early 20th century. George
33:50
has said through several interviews, in his opinion,
33:53
the first two decades of the 20th century set
33:56
up everything else for the rest of the century,
33:59
and he's right. So the Young Hindi series was
34:02
part of that. Anyway, all that to say, I taught
34:05
with the Young Indie for a long time. And when
34:07
they came out on DVD and they created 94 documentaries,
34:11
guys, 94 documentaries to support the 22 feature
34:15
length films. And so I wrote Luke's film and
34:17
said, Hey, this is who I am. These are some sample
34:19
lesson plans I have. I've had some communication
34:22
with them before over my teaching career, asking
34:25
them, hey, I'm bootlegging these things. I'm
34:27
breaking the law. Can you all make me legitimate
34:29
and release VHS copies, please? And so they were
34:34
very gracious. And we had conversations back
34:37
and forth, always that, hey, George saw your
34:39
letter and enjoyed it. I find out, yeah, when
34:42
George loves young Yindi, like when his secretary
34:45
was saying George saw your letter, he saw the
34:47
letter. And so all that to say just really got
34:52
a chance to work with these people before the
34:55
Young Indies series came out on DVD. And then
34:57
I offered my services and said, hey, I'd be happy
34:59
to to to help you pitch this to the educational
35:02
value. And they took me up on it. And so that
35:05
put me and Wes on a course of working with them
35:08
and for about, oh, gosh, 10, 12 years plus. And
35:15
longer than that. And that got us, they knew
35:19
my work, they knew Wes's work. And so I was invited
35:22
to come out to Skywalker Ranch and film a segment
35:26
to be included in the Harrison Ford documentary
35:30
about how the character of Indiana Jones had
35:33
influenced some people going to teaching. And
35:35
that was part of my story. So yeah, it was really
35:38
amazing to be part of that. And as a lifelong
35:42
fan, it was... Unreal as a teacher, I was blessed
35:46
to have an opportunity to talk about what good
35:48
education, good teaching looks like. Yeah. So
35:52
Thomas, the book Imaginary Education, how did
35:57
that come about? Right now it needs to be extremely
36:01
popular on Amazon. How did you come to write
36:05
that or what was the spark behind that? Yeah,
36:09
so that book came out of my work. that I was
36:13
doing as serving as project lead on the design
36:17
phase of that middle school, that's team -based
36:19
middle school I told you about. It was while
36:22
I was knee -deep in learning about design, architectural
36:27
design in school settings, that I was on a spring
36:31
break trip with my wife and my kids, our kids,
36:35
down at Disney World. It was about midway in
36:39
the week, and I was reflecting while I was watching
36:41
them play on Scavenger's Fort, or at Scavenger's
36:43
Fort on Tom Sawyer's Island, God rest its soul.
36:48
But the thing kept coming to my mind is how much
36:53
my kids had learned while having fun at Disney.
36:58
I mean, they learned about world cultures, do
37:00
a showcase at Epcot. They learned about conservation,
37:02
animal kingdom. And I was thinking, well, why
37:05
can't school be like this? And so I started playing
37:08
around with those questions. Why can't we design
37:10
schools like Disney designs a theme park? So
37:13
before I left that week, I bought up all the
37:15
imaginary things I could buy. And that two of
37:20
them, this one right here actually, designing
37:25
Disney by John Hinch kind of became one of my
37:29
design Bibles for that work in that school. And
37:32
this is no longer in print, I don't think, but
37:34
it's out there and I highly recommend it. And
37:37
so what I began to realize is that the Imagineers
37:41
kind of gave voice to what I knew as a classroom
37:45
teacher actually worked with kids, how you create
37:48
an experience in your classroom. And so now thinking
37:51
through the lens of a principal, why can't I
37:54
do this in an entire school? And so that led
37:57
to me giving a TEDx talk about that same time
38:01
called Reimagining Education, where I kind of
38:04
began to formalize some of those ideas. around
38:07
story, space, experience, and people. And I said,
38:12
you know, I got some good traction from that
38:13
TEDx talk and Big Ted picked it up and I said,
38:16
you know, hey, I'll write a book on this. I think
38:19
there's some interest in this and there's value
38:20
and I'm seeing the value in this. And then I
38:23
let 10 years go, life got busy, you know, and
38:26
then a couple of years ago, I said, hey, you
38:28
know, it's time to write this book now. And so,
38:32
yeah, it's been perfect timing actually. with
38:34
the way things are going in education when we're
38:37
looking for a lot of new ideas. And so that was
38:41
kind of the genesis was going back to a spring
38:46
break trip to Disney World with my kids. And
38:50
at the same time, I was working on surrounded
38:52
by some amazing architects working on this first
38:54
building. And they really inspired me. So the
39:01
book is essentially written as a as a next day
39:05
guide for teachers. I mean, you can read something
39:08
the next day, you can apply some of this, some
39:10
of these things. And it's also written for principals
39:14
and superintendents as a handshake. Hey, this
39:18
is, I've seen this work as a teacher, I've seen
39:20
it work as a principal when we instituted it
39:23
in the schools where I led. So let me now help
39:26
your staff because I know you don't have enough
39:27
time to do all this. So let me come in and show
39:31
you guys how you can do this. And you don't have
39:33
to have a million dollar budget. I mean, you
39:36
can do it. You can do it. We're using things
39:39
you already have. So. And you kind of mentioned
39:43
this a little bit, but could you get into the.
39:48
It's not a focus on like rearranging the furniture
39:51
or trying to. catch people with, you know, redesigning
39:55
your entire classroom. It's not just about physical
39:58
spaces. It's about culture and personal transformations.
40:01
And that's right. Why is why is that so important
40:05
to you with the emphasis on that being the starting
40:08
point? Yes. So that's that's a great question.
40:13
Well, I'll go back through those kind of forming
40:16
pillars and it all trapped in to this this answer.
40:20
I believe that every school, every classroom,
40:25
every life has a story to tell. So if you want
40:30
to start out on the elementary level, hey, what's
40:32
your school's mission statement? If it's actually
40:34
being lived and not just something everybody
40:37
wrote and put on a shelf somewhere, what's your
40:40
mission statement? That's an easy way to start.
40:44
What do we really believe in? What's our why,
40:46
as Simon Sinek says? Around that, I can build
40:50
my story. What is it that's unique about this
40:53
community and this school? And then the spaces.
40:59
How do I make the most use of an existing space
41:03
or how can I design a space for tomorrow, the
41:08
next week or the next year that's going to best
41:11
support students in the learning? And we go into
41:14
that a good bit. And some of that does sometimes
41:16
involve changing the flow of your classroom or,
41:22
let me tell you an easy one, music. Setting the
41:24
stage with music. I mean, you guys know as history
41:26
teachers, right? I mean, I'm not going to teach
41:29
Vietnam era without having some 60s music when
41:31
you're playing, playing when you come in. I'm
41:33
not going to teach the Great Depression, the
41:35
Dust Bowl without having Woody Guthrie. You know,
41:37
I'm not going to teach the middle ages without
41:39
having Madagascar rules and letting kids understand,
41:42
oh wait, there's that Gregorian chant. You know,
41:45
so those are easy things to set a mood, right,
41:47
in a space. So that helps create an experience,
41:50
which is the third pillar, story space experience.
41:53
And so what are the experiences I really want
41:56
my kids to have? I don't have to rearrange my
41:58
classroom or anything, but what experience do
42:00
I want them to have that's going to get them
42:03
emotionally excited and get them engaged to where
42:06
they're going to really care about what they're
42:10
learning? And then to do all those, to hit all
42:16
those three things, you have to have people.
42:18
You have to have people that want to be involved
42:20
in this process and have the best interest of
42:23
kids at heart. And so the transformation piece
42:26
comes back to this. You can have this beautiful
42:29
school. You can have a great story that your
42:33
school tells. You can have these awesome experiences
42:36
that kids have, but Well, Disney said this, it's
42:42
the people that make the magic. He said, we can
42:43
build the most beautiful park, have the greatest
42:45
rides, but it's the people that make the magic.
42:47
And that's how they do all their training. And
42:49
as the principal, I guess as a young principal,
42:53
I even understood that it's the people that make
42:55
the difference. And so that's where transformation
42:59
comes because we're in the business as educators
43:02
of transforming lives. But I can't... leave a
43:06
kid to transformation if I don't do some self
43:09
-reflection and transform my own life first.
43:11
Does that make sense? I can't give away that
43:14
which I don't have. And so how am I to get kids
43:19
excited about their future if I'm not excited
43:21
about my own future? How am I going to get kids
43:24
excited about what I'm teaching them if I really
43:27
don't believe in what I'm teaching them? So I
43:30
need to go back and do some self -evaluation
43:32
of like, hey, why am I Why did I get in teaching
43:36
to begin with? What is it that really, what's
43:40
my why? Again, go back to Simon Sinek, again,
43:43
The Golden Circle. That's your third homework
43:45
assignment. If you don't know that one, it's
43:47
a great TED talk. And it's so transformational.
43:51
I actually include that in the book. And you
43:56
got to know your why. And so I think that really
44:00
student transformation has to begin with adult
44:03
transformation. I can't transform a school before
44:06
I transform the adults that lead it. And I really
44:10
like what you said, too, like not that physical
44:12
spaces aren't important as well, to some extent,
44:15
but I really like how you you made the point
44:18
about there. There are other spaces that we can
44:21
occupy, like the one that came up right away
44:23
was like the tonal space, right? Like the way
44:26
that you can. create atmosphere through music
44:29
and things like that that can engage and send.
44:33
And I had a teacher as well that I that did something
44:36
very similar. When it was we were on this Vietnam
44:40
unit and it was like I remember listening to
44:42
some of the songs and things like that from that
44:45
era. During that class and those are things that
44:49
you remember, right? I mean like that. It's really
44:52
impactful. I feel like I don't remember if there
44:55
was a couch in the room or you know something
44:57
like that that was cool or whatever, but I do
45:00
remember the experiences that were created things
45:02
that you mentioned and so I really appreciate
45:05
that and if so I have a question for you like
45:10
let's say that a teacher doesn't know or doesn't
45:16
Hasn't tried something that you really focus
45:19
on in your book if you were to give that teacher
45:22
the book tomorrow and Point them to a strategy
45:26
and they don't have they don't have any budget
45:28
at all What would be something that they could
45:30
try tomorrow that you would recommend? First
45:34
thing is I would I would ask this question first.
45:37
How's your relationship with your kids? And I
45:41
will always call my students my kids. And I would
45:45
tell them up front, that kind of established
45:48
the relationship day one. I'm like, hey, you're
45:50
stuck with me. I'm your teacher now, you're one
45:52
of my kids. And so I would say, how's your relationship
45:56
with your kids? First of all, if you're not very
46:00
familiar with the things that's at least one
46:03
thing that each kid likes, get to know the kid,
46:06
start there, show some interest, okay? Don't
46:10
you know that the Imagineers know what their
46:12
customers like, their guests, right? It's through
46:15
market research and all this, right? But no,
46:17
as teachers, it's more important than that. One,
46:20
get to know your kids. I talk about that in the
46:22
book too. It starts with relationships, okay?
46:26
Secondly, the things that excite you may not
46:29
necessarily excite your kids. Find out what the
46:31
things are that your kids really like. Find out
46:34
their interests. Find out, hey, find out who
46:38
the musicians are and then lean on that, okay,
46:42
to help them or to empower them to help provide
46:44
experiences. Gosh, you guys ever do any like...
46:51
civil war raps or anything like civil rights
46:54
movement raps or you know where you get in that
46:58
one just came to mind but where where you're
47:02
getting kids who you're providing them an opportunity
47:06
to express themselves express their learning
47:09
rather in a way that means something to them
47:11
that values them okay and so those are some things
47:14
that are easy kind of See, these are experiences.
47:18
This is experiential. It has nothing to do with
47:21
creating, you know, the colors, changing the
47:22
colors in the wall or creating mood lighting.
47:25
Although those things are important. Natural
47:28
lighting. Hey, if you've got your blinds down
47:31
all the time, let the lights, open the blinds
47:33
up and let light in. There's research that shows
47:35
this, okay? Add some plants to your room. Okay,
47:38
yeah. Hey, Lowe's always has like the almost
47:41
dead section. If you don't have much of a budget,
47:43
you can nurse them back to life. Put plants in
47:46
the classroom, okay? Not only, I mean, there's
47:48
a lot of research there as well. We don't have
47:50
time, but again, just little things like that.
47:55
And music, again, is an easy one. But find something
47:58
that interests your kids, that you're going to,
48:03
see, I'll maybe roll this back. When I was teaching
48:06
Star Wars, we were in that transition time in
48:09
the 90s. when I first started teaching it, where
48:12
there had not been much new Star Wars out yet,
48:15
okay? I mean, you had the novels, Aired the Empire
48:18
and all that stuff, which I loved. But most kids
48:21
knew of it, but many hadn't, some had never seen
48:25
it. Some had seen only a little bit. Most didn't
48:27
know the level like we do, our generation does.
48:32
But when I would say, hey, when I'm teaching
48:34
this about Luke, say, how does this, anything
48:36
right here with the Harry Potter or Hermione
48:38
come to mind here? they'd see it. So make those
48:41
connections again, the relevance piece. So I
48:43
think those things are the ones that come to
48:45
mind first. On just one, find a relationship.
48:50
Two, find the things that interest them. Build
48:52
some activities around it, not your whole curriculum,
48:55
but build some activities around it. And three,
48:59
the things that you like, that you get excited
49:03
about, they're going to pick up on that. So share
49:05
that excitement with them as well. Coming around
49:09
to some of this thinking here, and it kind of
49:12
relates to some of what I know you've written
49:14
about, with kind of like, are we stuck in an
49:20
information age as far as the way that our systems
49:23
are set up in education, but we really need to
49:27
be progressing towards an imagination age? Absolutely.
49:32
Break free of that cycle. you know, or is it
49:36
everything you've just been talking about? Is
49:38
that the next, maybe the better question is,
49:40
is that the direction, you know, like, you know,
49:43
you talk about your why too, is this, you know,
49:45
part of the how to get to that why, right? Right.
49:51
Yeah, we, thanks for asking that question. That's
49:54
a great one. You know, we talk, there's a lot
49:58
of thought leaders out there who are saying we've
50:00
moved from the information age where what was
50:04
valued is valued most as being able to get, well,
50:09
let me back up. We had the Industrial Age. And
50:11
so what was valued then was who can get the most
50:14
products, the best, well, not even the best products,
50:17
get the most products to market the fastest wins.
50:20
Okay, so we moved from the Industrial Age into
50:22
the Information Age. And Information Age is about
50:27
who can control information the fastest. and
50:30
get it to bear in the marketplace before anyone
50:34
else. And it's all about the control, who controls
50:37
information. With these things now and AI, it
50:43
can extrapolate and do it like. 50 minutes in,
50:47
and that's the first mention of AI. That is our
50:50
world record, I swear, for any of our topics
50:53
of conversation. It's central to what we talk
50:56
about, but this has been great because we haven't
50:59
touched on that, but I didn't, sorry, I didn't
51:01
mean to cut you off, but. No, you didn't, because
51:03
I just came from speaking at South by Southwest
51:06
EDU a few weeks ago, and that was almost every
51:09
topic was AI. And my point is, as mentioned it
51:14
now, is that It doesn't think better than us,
51:18
but it can think faster than us. And I mean,
51:21
hey, if I was chat GPT to write an article about
51:23
post or something, I see it everywhere now, guys,
51:27
everywhere. Yeah, I can put it together, but
51:31
it's collating other people's thoughts. It doesn't
51:34
have this creativity and imagination that we
51:36
do. And so we are now moving out of this age
51:40
of information to an age of imagination and what
51:44
businesses are going to be seeking something
51:47
they've always sought, but more so the marketplace
51:50
is going to be, and the world in general, is
51:53
going to be looking for those people who can
51:55
take information and use it imaginatively, who
51:58
can be creative problem solvers. Oh my gosh,
52:02
21st century skills. Remember those guys? We're
52:05
26 years in now, and it's, you know, the four
52:08
C's, communication, collaboration, creativity,
52:12
you know, was one. And so, We I don't know that
52:15
we really have let a lot of times we give lip
52:17
service to things like that and we don't actually
52:19
put feet to it. But now I think the marketplace
52:22
and the world in general is we're going to need
52:25
creative thinkers. Yeah, unfortunately, in schools,
52:27
we're still testing at an information level.
52:29
We're still teaching teaching kids as products
52:32
in the assembly line. And we are asking them
52:35
regurgitate information that that model is is
52:39
dead and dying. And so we really need to get
52:43
back to teaching or developing their creativity
52:50
and imagination and be able to be imaginative
52:52
problem solvers. Because those are the people
52:53
that are going to lead the way, not the people
52:55
who are going to be the automatons. That's what
52:57
we have AI for. But it's going to be the people
53:01
that think creatively. Real quick on that, I
53:05
was asked by a large national insurance company
53:10
to do a talk on AI and creativity. several months
53:14
ago, and the director of the marketing department,
53:20
where all the creatives are, reached out to me
53:23
and said, hey, can you give us a presentation
53:25
on why AI is not a threat to creativity in the
53:30
marketing world? And so I'm like, whoa, that's
53:33
a tall order. These guys are all professional
53:35
designers and artists and all this, and they
53:37
know their craft, and they're wanting me to come
53:38
in as an educator to teach them something about
53:40
this and AI and still so new. So I went to chat,
53:44
I went to Grok, and I didn't go to Claude. I
53:47
went to chat in Grok, and I said, hey, explain
53:50
to me why AI is not a threat to human capacity
53:58
for creativity and imagination. very interesting
54:01
answers. And the one that stuck with me the most
54:05
actually was one of the rounds going with chat
54:08
was that AI has no soul and creativity comes
54:13
from the human soul. And I was like, hmm, now
54:15
you might be saying that because you know me,
54:19
but actually I thought that was interesting.
54:21
And that's why we need to create or need to keep
54:25
the humanness in education. It's got to come
54:28
back to What is good for the soul? What is good
54:33
for a kid's soul? What is good for the teacher's
54:35
soul? What's good for the leader, the leadership
54:37
soul? And it's not rogue memorization. It's not
54:42
standardized tests. It's not the, it's not the
54:49
make or break high stakes testing that we set
54:51
up for ourselves in this world. In 1997, I had
54:57
the ability, I was blessed to go to be part of
55:02
a teacher exchange to Japan. And there were four
55:04
of us teachers from the US that were selected
55:06
and 12 from Europe. And I was a young teacher.
55:09
And we met the one of the first days we met the
55:12
four American teachers met with the assistant
55:14
secretary of education for Japan. And he was
55:16
so excited to have us. He said, we know we love
55:19
American schools. This is 1998. He said, we love
55:22
American schools. We send teachers over there
55:23
all the time to learn from you guys. And I'm
55:27
sitting there looking at the other American teachers
55:28
and like, okay, this is interesting. I said,
55:31
cause look, I was a kid in the eighties and we
55:32
were told our head, our hand, we were having
55:35
our heads handed to us by the Japanese and the
55:37
Germans in terms of science and math. And he
55:40
laughed and he said, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He
55:42
said, we can do that very well. And Japanese
55:44
school system, education system, we do that very
55:46
well. He said, what we lack is what the classrooms
55:50
in America teach us so well. And that's individual
55:53
fault. He said, and I'll never forget this. He
55:55
said that the Japanese culture was ruled. by
55:58
a Chinese proverb that the nail that sticks up
56:01
gets hammered down. And that individual creativity
56:03
in thought was something that he really as a
56:06
nation, an education system, they wanted to instill
56:09
in kids. And he said the American classroom does
56:11
a great job of create teaching creativity to
56:14
kids. And I was thinking, wow, they're chasing
56:17
us this direction and we're chasing them that
56:19
direction. And like, we've got to find a happy
56:22
medium. You know what I'm saying? There's got
56:23
to be a happy medium. So, yeah. And that was
56:27
Almost 30 years ago and we but now we are at
56:30
the point time where we have to promote We have
56:34
to get back to the things that we know that we're
56:36
we all are innately created. We're born that
56:38
way and We've got to get back to unleashing that
56:42
for our students and ourselves yeah, and so I
56:45
wanted maybe just do a comparison here a little
56:49
bit and So if you're looking at the American
56:52
school today and how it's structured What is
56:57
it that you think needs to be changed so that
57:00
the experience of the student changes? Student
57:05
centered, not textbook centered, not standard
57:10
centered, not test centered. I'll start with
57:14
that one first. That would be the first. I'm
57:19
old enough now to have taught for a few years
57:23
without high stakes testing. without before there
57:26
was there was mandatory state standards and there's
57:29
look I'm not not knocking standards I've worked
57:31
on worked on state standards for many years in
57:33
South Carolina I helped write the ancient history
57:36
standards for sixth grade in the state so I know
57:39
the value there it's when we get so locked in
57:42
the same this is all you can teach or you have
57:45
to teach all of this and you don't leave leeway
57:49
for that individual creativity. You don't leave
57:54
leeway for a teacher to make an executive decision,
57:57
an informed decision based on their students
57:59
because all students aren't widgets, aren't all
58:01
students have the same needs. It's when we get
58:04
so locked in, it puts so much emphasis on the
58:08
process instead of what the product is, which
58:10
is a well -rounded student that's going to be
58:15
an active citizen and with a fulfilled life,
58:18
you know. I think the schools need to get back
58:22
to or maybe get to for the really first time.
58:26
And I think we used to do OK in the past and
58:28
some and some respect. But I think we need to
58:32
get back to or get to emphasizing individual
58:36
student interests, meeting them where they are
58:40
and. Yeah, just preparing them, thinking, teaching
58:46
them to think. and not regurgitate. That's a
58:48
huge one. Teach them to think, to ask questions,
58:53
that it's okay to ask questions. Just because
58:56
it's here doesn't mean it's true. So I think
58:59
that we've gotten so locked in, so blinded, let's
59:04
make that word up, our blinders on, that we're
59:07
so focused on we have to teach this on this day
59:09
because we have a test that's going to have these
59:11
questions on this. We're not a leaving room for
59:15
individual fault. that makes sense or student
59:18
expression. And I think that's really what we've
59:20
got to get back to. So if and then so then in
59:23
comparison, like if you look at a truly imagineered
59:26
school, what what is if you look at a student
59:31
that would have that experience, what is that
59:34
that you want them to feel and believe about
59:36
themselves as they graduate? Wow. That they're
59:41
prepared for the next stage of life, that they
59:44
are well equipped. to enter the next stage of
59:48
their hero's journey, that they have been supported
59:52
by people that love them. I'm talking about people
59:58
beyond their immediate family, beyond the home.
1:00:00
I'm talking about a community of people that
1:00:02
have supported them, that have spoken into them,
1:00:04
that encourage them, that have given them permission
1:00:08
and space to dream, because so often we don't
1:00:12
do that. Walt wanted to create Disneyland originally
1:00:21
as a place where parents and students could learn
1:00:27
together, could play together, and could dream
1:00:30
together. And so I would want that graduating
1:00:35
senior walking across the stage, having experienced
1:00:38
a school where adults and kids learn together,
1:00:44
played together, dreamed together. And now I
1:00:51
have prepared that student as best I can for
1:00:54
whatever's gonna happen to them. And here's the
1:00:56
other thing, to give them the belief or give
1:00:59
them the understanding that, hey, you're never
1:01:01
gonna be alone. Somebody's gonna have your back.
1:01:04
It might be me, reach out to me, but we've done
1:01:09
all we can for you. Now it's time for you to
1:01:11
leave the nest. And you're prepared to do it.
1:01:13
We believe in you. We have faith in you. And
1:01:17
so I think that's what I would want to have happen.
1:01:20
You know, I've always I've always thought that
1:01:22
you put three social studies together and teachers
1:01:26
together in a room. And, you know, like they're
1:01:28
going to change the world. Right. You just ask
1:01:30
them. They're going to tell you they have all
1:01:32
the answers and you tell you what to do. Right.
1:01:36
We may not have Morgan to tell you we have. We're
1:01:39
going to tell you we do. So Thomas, really, we
1:01:43
want to thank you so much for being on with us
1:01:45
here. And I know we're kind of running up on
1:01:48
the end of our program or the conversation here.
1:01:52
But David and I like to kind of close out with
1:01:55
a lightning round where we ask you a few questions.
1:01:58
You can give one word responses. You can elaborate
1:02:01
as you would like to on any of them, really.
1:02:05
We make our own rules as we go along. Whatever
1:02:09
works good. And I think David is going to kick
1:02:11
us off here with the first one, aren't you, David?
1:02:13
Yeah. So in regard to Star Wars, original trilogy,
1:02:18
prequels or the sequels? Clone Wars. Oh, all
1:02:25
right. Ooh. No, no, no, no. I don't know. OG.
1:02:29
But Clone Wars would come in there. And I'm not
1:02:31
talking, I'm talking the animated series. Some
1:02:34
of the best Star Wars storytelling. Rebels as
1:02:37
well. Incredible. Andor. Andor, though. Incredible
1:02:42
storytelling. That might be some of the best
1:02:45
storytelling I've seen since George in that series.
1:02:49
But for me, with those. Prequel, original, sequel,
1:02:54
OG. Okay. What about, you know, you've had a
1:02:58
chance to dabble in the Lucas world here a little
1:03:00
bit. Would you rather go Indiana Jones or Star
1:03:03
Wars for, you know, actually better content that
1:03:07
would lend itself to teach? I've talked more
1:03:11
with Star Wars and I have Indiana Jones, although
1:03:13
I love Indiana Jones. It inspired me as a history
1:03:17
teacher. But I found that there's a much richer
1:03:22
interdisciplinary a connection to teaching with
1:03:27
Star Wars unless unless you include the young
1:03:30
in the series and then the young in the series
1:03:33
top Star Wars because it's it was created to
1:03:35
be educational All right, so this next one a
1:03:40
Disney imaginer calls and says they want to co
1:03:44
-design a school from scratch with you What's
1:03:46
the first thing you put on the whiteboard? Story.
1:03:52
What's our story? Why are we doing what we're
1:03:55
doing? What? You know, if it if I don't know
1:03:59
my why, why does it matter? So that's the first
1:04:03
thing I put on the white. I put that word. And
1:04:06
then. Oh, gosh, I'll just I'll leave it that
1:04:12
story. Perfect. We gotta have the people. It's
1:04:16
the principle coming out in me. You gotta hire
1:04:18
the staff, right? You gotta have the ones that
1:04:22
are knocking on the park. And that's one of my
1:04:23
favorite parts of administration is hiring people.
1:04:27
I love that. You gotta put the All -Star team
1:04:30
together. But I think we have to begin with story.
1:04:34
So you're gonna give a big keynote here. What's
1:04:37
your walk -up song gonna be? Or maybe the better
1:04:40
question is which... Is it Imperial March? Or,
1:04:45
you know, is it a different moment from any one
1:04:49
of those films? Or do you have your own thing
1:04:51
that's not related to anything Lucas films? Gosh,
1:04:57
actually, when I read that question, you guys
1:05:00
sent that one over. First thing that popped in
1:05:03
my head, which you all for me should get with
1:05:04
the first thing was Top Gun Anthem. Actually,
1:05:09
I love that. But there's a group called Oh The
1:05:15
Larceny. And I've really, they've become kind
1:05:17
of my hype music. And they have a song called
1:05:20
It's About To Get Crazy. And I love that one.
1:05:23
And I think that would be, I listened to a lot
1:05:26
of their songs before I went on my way to a keynote.
1:05:30
So yeah, it's about to get crazy. Because I'm
1:05:33
talking about teaching in a different way than
1:05:35
most people ever think about teaching. All right,
1:05:39
so this this next part we just do with this or
1:05:41
that So we put you on the spot and you can only
1:05:43
choose one of the options. You can't choose both
1:05:47
Disney World or Disneyland I've only been Disneyland
1:05:58
once and it was only for six hours. So I have
1:06:02
to say Disney World Although I love the fact
1:06:06
that Disneyland is Walt's Park. I love that,
1:06:08
the Disney World. Okay. Which job was harder?
1:06:13
Classroom teacher or school principal? Principal.
1:06:20
Okay. Because there were days when I, I mean,
1:06:27
I rarely had a day I wasn't locked into my purpose.
1:06:32
as a classroom teacher. As a principal, there
1:06:35
were days when there's so much that's just out
1:06:38
of control. I mean, not out of control, out of
1:06:40
your control that has to be dealt with, and there's
1:06:45
put out so many fires. And yeah, I think principals
1:06:51
was harder for me. I have friends that like you're
1:06:54
second nature to them, like duck in the water.
1:06:55
But that one, there's a lot I love about it.
1:06:58
But that one's harder than classroom teacher
1:07:00
to me. So there's some Odyssey obstacles in the
1:07:03
way you might say on that on that one. Absolutely.
1:07:06
Yep. Yep. All right. So heroes journey or design
1:07:11
thing design thinking which one changes students
1:07:14
more heroes journey. Better mentor Yoda or Obi
1:07:21
-Wan. You're killing me smalls. I used to always
1:07:30
think it was Yoda. I have a massive collection
1:07:33
of Yotas that was in my classroom and now in
1:07:35
my office at work for years. But after the Clone
1:07:38
Wars series, man, my man Obi -Wan. I have to
1:07:42
go with Obi -Wan. I love Obi -Wan. All right.
1:07:45
I got to watch that again because it's been a
1:07:46
while since I've watched that. Man, so good.
1:07:50
So good. OK, this next one, fix teacher burnout
1:07:54
or fix student disengagement. Which one unlocks
1:07:57
the other? Think the teacher the teacher burnout
1:08:03
Simply because I probably believe you have to
1:08:09
start with the leader you have to start with
1:08:10
the person that's that's leading them and We've
1:08:14
got it. We've got a chance from ourselves first
1:08:17
All right, this lap this last one might get you
1:08:21
in trouble I don't know but Harrison Ford as
1:08:25
Indy or Harrison Ford as Han Solo Indy They get
1:08:29
me in trouble all day long. We were, when I say
1:08:37
we, Wes and I were invited to come to the red
1:08:43
carpet for the Dial of Destiny and got to bring
1:08:46
our families. And that was just completely surreal.
1:08:53
But seeing Harrison as I wanted just Harrison.
1:09:00
But I loved Han as a kid, but Andy inspired me
1:09:04
in the career path I went. And so I just remember
1:09:07
seeing him and Kalista walk on the carpet thinking,
1:09:10
wow, that guy's career has touched so many lives,
1:09:12
but it's touched mine to what I'm doing now.
1:09:15
And so it's like, hey, thanks, man. I appreciate
1:09:17
it. So I mean, Andy would be the one. I know
1:09:21
Harrison's an avid listener of our podcast, so
1:09:23
he'll hear that. Oh, man. He'll cuss me out,
1:09:28
probably. Harrison seems to be an awesome guy.
1:09:35
Thomas, again, thank you for everything that
1:09:39
you've shared with us here today. I also want
1:09:42
to thank you for just the inspiration that you've
1:09:44
been to countless teachers and students over
1:09:47
the years that you've been in education. So we
1:09:51
want to kind of wrap it up here with, you know,
1:09:55
turning it over to you. What do you have coming
1:09:57
up that you would like to share with people?
1:10:00
Anything to promote? You know, we will link anything
1:10:03
that you describe into the show description.
1:10:06
And, you know, yeah, so the stage is yours. Yeah,
1:10:10
I appreciate it, guys. So coming up, I think
1:10:14
the next Next event I have coming up is I'll
1:10:18
be speaking at ASCD ISTE in July in Orlando.
1:10:23
I'm very excited about that. I've got an hour
1:10:26
long innovator series talk and just found out
1:10:30
last month it's going to be recorded. So we're
1:10:33
a little nervous about that, but hey, I'm excited
1:10:35
about that as well. That's the audience side.
1:10:38
very excited to be in front of. We'll get a chance
1:10:40
to meet you then because we'll be there as well.
1:10:42
So yeah, no way. Yeah. Hey, all right. So let
1:10:46
me tell you, I'll tell you, I got to tell you
1:10:50
something off air. There's a little, there's
1:10:55
a little something, something going on. I'll
1:10:57
tell you guys about the invite you to. So anyway,
1:11:01
um, all right. So, um, I'm looking forward to
1:11:04
that. That's, that's great. And then as far as,
1:11:08
there's a really cool project I'm working on
1:11:11
right now. I can't quite, not to the point where
1:11:15
I can talk about it yet, but it's going to be
1:11:18
an amazing educational space that I can't wait
1:11:23
to share. But I'll be posting about that in the
1:11:27
coming, probably coming weeks and definitely
1:11:29
coming months. So you've got two, two and a half
1:11:32
year project. I'm very thrilled about this one.
1:11:35
That said, you can find my work at ImagineeringEDU
1:11:39
.com. I do have a blog that I'm a little behind
1:11:42
on because just speaking at South by Southwest,
1:11:44
and I just spoke at the A4LE conference, which
1:11:47
is the Association for Learning Environments
1:11:49
with Architects and Designers and Builders and
1:11:52
School Superintendents, things like that. But
1:11:56
I do have all my blogs there. I started a podcast
1:12:00
in 2020. Going to change the world with that
1:12:02
in January 2020. 2020 hit. So I got like 13 episodes
1:12:10
in and there's but there's some great content
1:12:12
there. It's still posted on there. Plus, I've
1:12:14
got some other some other podcast format content
1:12:18
not posted as well. So you can go look at that
1:12:21
ideas to bring this back. So I have you guys
1:12:23
on my on my podcast, because I want to pick your
1:12:25
brains on being classroom teachers. And so imagineeringed
1:12:30
.com. And then of course the book, Imagining
1:12:33
Education, A Guide to Creating the Most Magical
1:12:35
Schools on Earth. I would love it, be honored
1:12:38
if you guys would get a copy of that. And if
1:12:41
you have any questions about it, before you buy
1:12:43
it, you can reach out to me. I'm on LinkedIn.
1:12:46
I'm on, I think it's ThomasRiddle21 is where
1:12:50
I am at LinkedIn. But I'm on Facebook. I have
1:12:53
a personal account is open, my personal account
1:12:56
and also Imagineer in Education has a Facebook
1:13:00
account on Instagram as well, both triddle21
1:13:05
and also ImagineeringEd. And then I have an online
1:13:10
course also. We've got about 35 people in it
1:13:15
right now. It's asynchronous, so you can work
1:13:18
through it on your own pace. You have access
1:13:20
to me in the chat. We can talk about things,
1:13:24
get your comments, answer questions, but information
1:13:27
about that is on the website as well. So, yeah,
1:13:30
I think that's all that's going on right now.
1:13:34
Perfect. Well, I think the appropriate way to
1:13:36
end this is may the force be with you. And also
1:13:40
with you. Also with you. Thanks for listening
1:13:46
to Integrate This. Want to take your learning
1:13:49
further? head over to our YouTube channel for
1:13:51
quick tutorials, deep dives, and more ed tech
1:13:55
tips you can use right away. Don't forget to
1:13:58
subscribe and catch new podcast episodes every
1:14:01
Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get
1:14:05
your podcasts. Until next time, keep exploring,
1:14:09
keep innovating, and keep integrating this.