Latest / Wildlands Podcast — National Parks, Public Lands & Survival / #002 - Great Basin, Part 2: The Visit | Lehman Caves Tours, Wheeler Peak & Dark Skies

Transcript

#002 - Great Basin, Part 2: The Visit | Lehman Caves Tours, Wheeler Peak & Dark Skies · Wildlands Podcast — National Parks, Public Lands & Survival

0:11
There's a stretch of U .S. highway 50 inches
0:15
central Nevada that an old magazine article once
0:18
called the loneliest road in America. It was
0:23
meant as an insult. The idea was, don't bother.
0:29
Nothing out there. No reason to stop. Nevada
0:35
looked at that, and instead of arguing, they
0:39
put it on a road sign. Embraced it. Because the
0:44
people who actually drive it know the truth.
0:48
The emptiness isn't the absence of something.
0:51
It is the thing. And somewhere out along that
0:56
lonely road, you turn south, And you point your
1:00
truck at a mountain that's been standing on the
1:02
horizon for the last hour. Getting slowly bigger.
1:07
Snow on its summit even in July. That's Wheeler
1:12
Peak. And at its base is one of the least visited
1:16
national parks in the country. Which, if you've
1:20
listened to this show before, you know is exactly
1:21
the kind of place we live for. Last episode was
1:26
The Deep History. The Rock. The cave, the trees,
1:30
the ice. The why. Today is the how. How to actually
1:37
get there. How to get into that cave before it
1:40
sells out. How to stand on top of that mountain
1:44
without it hurting you. And how to see a night
1:46
sky most Americans have never seen in their lives.
1:51
This is Wildlands. I'm Sean Spanauer. Know the
1:58
land before you reach it. Let's start with the
2:02
hardest part of visiting Great Basin, which has
2:05
nothing to do with the hiking. It's just getting
2:09
there. This park is remote in a way that's hard
2:14
to overstate. The nearest town of any size is
2:18
Ellie, Nevada. That's E -L -Y. About an hour
2:22
north. From Salt Lake City, you're looking at
2:26
around four to four and a half hours of driving.
2:29
From Las Vegas, closer to five. There is no airport
2:33
next door. There is no shuttle. You drive, and
2:38
then you keep driving past the point where most
2:40
people would assume they'd made a wrong turn.
2:43
Right at the park's doorstep is the tiny town
2:46
of Baker, Nevada. And I mean tiny. We're talking
2:52
a population you could fit. on a school bus.
2:56
Baker is your last chance for fuel, food, and
2:59
a bed before the park, and we'll talk more about
3:02
staying there in Part 3. For now, the rule that
3:07
matters. Fill your gas tank before you get here.
3:11
Fill it in, Ely. Fill it wherever you last see
3:14
a station with more than one pump. Out here,
3:17
running low on fuel isn't an inconvenience. It's
3:21
a genuine problem. and the drive -in isn't just
3:25
dead time. You're crossing the heart of the basin
3:28
and range. Climb a ridge, drop into a valley,
3:32
cross it, climb the next one. The exact landscape
3:36
we explained in Part 1. Wide, pale valleys, parallel
3:41
mountains to the horizon, pencil -straight highway.
3:44
It's worth actually looking at instead of counting
3:49
down the miles to somewhere else. Which brings
3:53
me to the first real piece of preparation, and
3:56
it's a mindset more than a checklist. The moment
3:59
you turn off that highway, you are on your own
4:03
in a way most modern travel never asks of you.
4:08
Cell service in and around the park ranges from
4:12
spotty to non -existent. Do not count on your
4:16
phone for navigation, for tour confirmations,
4:18
for emergency calls, for anything. Before you
4:22
lose signal, and you will lose signal, download
4:26
your offline maps. Screenshot or print your cave
4:30
reservation. Tell somebody back home your plan
4:34
and when you expect to check in. That last one
4:37
is a habit this whole show is built around, and
4:41
it starts the second you leave the pavement.
4:44
Here's the upside of all that remoteness, though.
4:47
Great Basin is one of the few marquee parks in
4:50
America. with no entrance fee. None. You can
4:55
drive right in. The only things you pay for are
4:58
a cave tour ticket and a campsite. Everything
5:02
else, the scenic drive, the trails, the bristle
5:05
cones, the night sky, is just there. Free. In
5:13
a park system that's gotten more crowded and
5:15
more expensive every year, that's almost a relic.
5:21
So, you've made the drive. You've arrived. What's
5:26
your first move? Your first stop is the Lehman
5:31
Caves Visitor Center. This is mission control.
5:36
It's where the cave tours start, it's where the
5:39
rangers are, and it's where you get the one thing
5:41
your downloaded map can't give you. Current conditions.
5:46
Is the Upper Scenic Drive open or snowed shut?
5:50
Which trails are clear? Are there any walk -up
5:54
cave tickets left? In a park where the weather
5:58
can rewrite your plans overnight, the rangers
6:01
at that desk are the most valuable resource you've
6:03
got. Talk to them. Tell them what you're hoping
6:07
to do. They will save you from a wasted day.
6:12
There's also a second, newer visitor center down
6:15
in Baker. the Great Basin Visitor Center, with
6:18
exhibits on the park's geology and history. Worth
6:21
a stop if you've got time, especially if you
6:24
listened to Part 1 and want to see the fossils
6:27
and the story laid out. But the Lehman Caves
6:30
Visitor Center, up the hill, is the one that
6:33
runs your day. Let's talk about the cave, because
6:38
it's the one thing here you cannot just walk
6:40
up and do on a whim. It takes planning and...
6:45
People get burned on this constantly. Lehman
6:50
Caves can only be entered on a ranger -guided
6:52
tour. There's no self -guided option, no wandering
6:57
in on your own. And every tour has a hard cap.
7:01
20 people, and that's it. Multiply a small group
7:06
size by a remote park with a single famous cave,
7:09
and you get the obvious result. These tours...
7:14
Sell out. Regularly. Especially in summer. So
7:20
here is the single most important logistical
7:22
sentence in this entire episode. Book your cave
7:26
tour in advance. You reserve through Recreation
7:31
.gov. That's the federal reservation site for
7:35
pretty much everything on public land. Or by
7:38
phone. The booking window opens up to 30 days
7:41
ahead. And for a summer weekend, You want to
7:45
be on it the day it opens. There are a limited
7:49
number of walk -up tickets released each morning
7:51
at the visitor center, but here's the reality.
7:54
They can sell out within minutes of the doors
7:57
opening. Driving four hours and hoping for a
8:00
walk -up spot is a gamble I wouldn't take. Now,
8:05
which tour? The park offers a few different ones
8:09
depending on the season. and they vary in length
8:12
and how much of the cave you see. The short one,
8:16
often called the Gothic Palace Tour, runs about
8:19
30 minutes and gives you a taste of the first
8:24
big room. The longer one, the Grand Palace Tour,
8:27
runs around 90 minutes and takes you deep through
8:31
the famous decorated rooms, the shields, the
8:34
formations the cave is known for. If you've driven
8:39
all this way, and you're physically able, take
8:42
the long tour. That's my honest advice. You came
8:48
for the cave. See the cave. A few practical things
8:53
about being down there. The cave sits at a constant
8:57
temperature year -round around 50 degrees Fahrenheit.
9:01
It does not care that it's 105 in the parking
9:04
lot. The second you step inside, it's cool and
9:08
damp. So, bring a layer. A light jacket, a long
9:14
sleeve something. People show up in tank tops
9:17
and shorts and spend 90 minutes regretting it.
9:22
Footwear. Closed -toe shoes with grip. The paths
9:26
are paved, but they're wet, and in places low
9:30
and slick. You'll duck. You'll watch your head.
9:34
It is not a strenuous walk. but it is not a flat
9:38
sidewalk either. And there's one rule here that
9:41
catches people off guard, so listen up. There's
9:45
a disease killing bats across North America called
9:48
white -nose syndrome. It's caused by a fungus,
9:52
and it spreads on gear. So the park has a hard
9:56
rule. You cannot bring anything into Lehman Caves.
10:01
Shoes, clothing, a camera bag, a tripod. that
10:05
has been in any other cave or mine, ever, unless
10:10
it's been properly decontaminated. If you're
10:14
a caver, if you've toured another cavern on this
10:17
same trip, take that seriously. Those bats are
10:21
part of the living cave we talked about last
10:24
episode, and protecting them is part of the price
10:27
of admission. So, what's the tour itself actually
10:33
like? You gather at the visitor center, a ranger
10:37
checks you in, and you walk in as a group through
10:40
the entrance into the mountain. And the first
10:43
thing you notice is the air. It changes the instant
10:47
you're inside. Cool, still, damp, with that faint
10:52
mineral smell that old caves have. The desert
10:55
glare drops away behind you, and the light goes
10:57
soft and artificial. Then the ranger walks you
11:01
room to room, and the formations start. stalactites
11:06
hanging like stone icicles, stalagmites pushing
11:10
up from the floor, columns where the two have
11:13
met over tens of thousands of years, draperies
11:17
of flowstone that look exactly like fabric frozen
11:20
mid -fold, and then the shields, those rare,
11:25
flat, plate -like formations Lehman Caves is
11:28
famous for, more than 300 of them, one of the
11:32
densest collections on the planet. A good ranger
11:37
doesn't just point at rocks. They tell you the
11:41
chemistry, the slightly acidic water, the patient
11:44
dripping, the deep time we covered in part one,
11:46
and they tell you the human history, the early
11:50
candlelit tours, the names visitors carved and
11:53
smoked onto the ceiling a century ago before
11:56
we knew better. It is genuinely one of the most
11:59
beautiful caves in the country, and seeing it
12:02
with someone who can read it for you, is worth
12:06
every bit of the planning it takes to get a spot.
12:12
Okay, up we go. Because the other signature experience
12:16
here doesn't go down into the earth. It climbs
12:20
straight up the mountain. The Wheeler Peak Scenic
12:26
Drive is 12 miles of pavement that climbs from
12:29
the desert floor to nearly 10 ,000 feet. In those
12:34
12 miles, you gain about half a vertical mile
12:38
of elevation. And remember what we said in Part
12:42
1 about climbing through life zones? This drive
12:47
is that lesson, live. You start in Sagebrush
12:52
and Pinion Juniper, and by the top you're parked
12:56
among Engelmann Spruce and Aspen with Alpine
12:58
Peaks overhead. You drive through several different
13:02
worlds. in about 20 minutes of road. There's
13:06
a pullout partway up called Mather Overlook that
13:09
you should not skip. It gives you a clean, framed
13:13
view of Wheeler Peak and the glacial cirque tucked
13:16
beneath it. It's a great orientation stop on
13:19
the way up, and a fine sunset spot if you're
13:22
not up for a hike. Now, two hard limits on this
13:27
road. First, size. The upper part of this drive
13:32
is no place for big rigs. Vehicles or trailers
13:36
over 24 feet long are not permitted past a certain
13:40
point. The road is steep, it's winding, and it
13:44
was not built for a 40 -foot motorhome. If you're
13:47
towing or driving something large, you'll need
13:50
to plan around that. Second and bigger, season.
13:57
This is a high -elevation mountain road. and
13:59
it is closed by snow for a good chunk of the
14:02
year. In a normal year, it opens up sometime
14:05
in late spring or early summer, and closes again
14:09
in the fall. Snow can block the top well into
14:13
June, and it can return as early as September.
14:17
So the high country here has a short season.
14:21
If your whole trip is built around standing in
14:24
that bristlecone grove or summiting the peak,
14:27
you... Check whether the upper road is open before
14:31
you commit. The rangers at that visitor center
14:35
will tell you straight. At the top of the scenic
14:41
drive is the Wheeler Peak Campground, and right
14:45
there, clustered together, are the trailheads
14:47
for the best day hiking in the park. Let me walk
14:51
you through your options, easiest to hardest.
14:56
If you want the alpine scenery, Without a brutal
14:59
effort, the Alpine Lakes Loop is your hike. It's
15:04
a gentle loop, right around two and a half to
15:07
three miles, with a few hundred feet of climbing.
15:12
It takes you past two beautiful glacial lakes,
15:15
Stella Lake and Teresa Lake. Sitting in those
15:19
bowls, the Ice Age glaciers scooped out, with
15:22
Wheeler Peak reflected in the water above them.
15:26
And here's a detail I love. Those two lakes have
15:30
names. Stella Lake is named for the first woman
15:33
known to have summited Wheeler Peak back in the
15:36
1800s. And Teresa Lake is named for Teresa Lehman,
15:41
the daughter of Absalom Lehman, the rancher who
15:46
found the cave. So the family that opened this
15:51
park to the world is still up there on the map
15:54
in the high country. Next step up, the Bristlecone
16:00
Trail. This is the one a lot of people come specifically
16:04
to do, and after part one, I hope you understand
16:08
why. It's a moderate hike, roughly three miles
16:13
round trip, climbing maybe 600 feet, and it delivers
16:17
you into a grove of living bristlecone pines.
16:22
These are the trees we spent half of last episode
16:25
on. Thousands of years old. Twisted, half -bare,
16:30
polished silver by the wind. Standing among them
16:33
is, for my money, the single most moving thing
16:38
you can do in this park. Go quiet. Take your
16:42
time. You are in the presence of the oldest individual
16:46
living things on Earth, and they were old before
16:49
your whole civilization started. Push a little
16:53
farther. and the Bristlecone Trail connects to
16:56
the Glacier Trail, making it about six miles
16:59
round -trip with a bit more climbing. That extension
17:03
takes you up toward Nevada's only glacier, the
17:07
last of the Ice Age ice, tucked in the shadow
17:10
of Wheeler's Cliffs. Now, a small honesty note.
17:15
What you'll actually see is a rock glacier, a
17:19
mass of ice buried and armored under a field
17:22
of rubble. It does not look like a postcard glacier
17:26
in Alaska. It looks, at first, like a pile of
17:30
rocks. But knowing what it is, moving ice, a
17:35
genuine survivor of the last ice age, clinging
17:38
on in the desert, changes how you see it. That's
17:43
kind of the whole theme of this park, isn't it?
17:46
You have to know it to see it. And those aren't
17:50
the only trails. Down lower, away from the scenic
17:54
drive crowds, there's a whole quieter side to
17:57
this park. Baker Creek Road and Snake Creek Road
18:01
lead to less traveled trailheads. The Baker Lake
18:04
Trail is a long, gorgeous backcountry day. A
18:09
12 or 13 mile round trip to an alpine lake sitting
18:12
in a glacial basin with real solitude as the
18:16
reward. There's the Lehman Creek Trail. The Osceola
18:19
Ditch Trail that follows an old 19th century
18:22
mining water ditch carved across the mountain
18:24
and a handful of short nature trails near the
18:27
campgrounds. If you've got more than a day or
18:31
two, ask a ranger about these. The famous trails
18:36
up top are famous for good reason, but the lower
18:39
country is where you find the kind of quiet this
18:43
whole park is supposed to be about. And keep
18:47
your eyes open while you hike. because this park
18:50
is alive. Mule deer are common. You'll likely
18:55
see and hear wild turkey down in the campgrounds,
18:58
marmots up in the rocks, maybe a golden eagle
19:01
riding the thermals off the ridge. There are
19:05
mountain lions and the occasional black bear
19:07
in this range, though you're very unlikely to
19:10
see either. The streams hold trout, and you can
19:14
fish them with a Nevada state license. Though
19:17
I'll be honest, The park's little creeks are
19:20
small and brushy and tough to fish. The bigger
19:23
backcountry lakes are the better bet if fishing's
19:26
your thing. And then there's the big one, Wheeler
19:32
Peak itself. The summit trail is the marquee
19:37
challenge of Great Basin. Roughly 8 to 9 miles
19:41
round trip, climbing somewhere around 3 ,000
19:44
feet. topping out at over 13 ,000 feet above
19:48
sea level, the second highest point in all of
19:51
Nevada. The trail itself is non -technical. You
19:56
don't need ropes, you don't need to scramble
19:59
or rock climb. If you can hike uphill for a long
20:02
time, you can physically follow this trail. But,
20:07
and this is a big but, non -technical does not
20:11
mean easy. This is a serious, strenuous... high
20:15
-altitude mountain day. Let me paint you the
20:19
real picture of it. You start in the trees, winding
20:23
up through aspen and pine. Around three miles
20:27
in, the forest thins and then quits entirely,
20:30
and you step out onto open, exposed alpine ridge.
20:36
From there, it is rock. Loose scree, a relentless
20:41
grade, and a false summit. that will lie to you.
20:45
A high point that looks like the top until you
20:48
reach it and see the real summit still rising
20:51
beyond. The last push is steep and the air is
20:54
thin and every step costs more than it should.
20:58
And then you're on top. And you can see into
21:02
Utah, across range after range of that basin
21:05
and range country we described last time, the
21:08
caterpillars marching off toward Mexico. The
21:11
desert floor. is a vertical mile and a half below
21:14
you. It is one of the great summit views in the
21:18
interior west. Here's how you do it without getting
21:22
hurt. Three rules. One, start early. Be on the
21:28
trail at first light or close to it. I'll explain
21:32
exactly why in a minute, but it comes down to
21:34
one word, lightning. Two, respect the altitude.
21:41
you're going above 13 ,000 feet. If you drove
21:47
in from sea level yesterday, your body is not
21:50
ready for that today. Spend a day at the park's
21:53
elevation first if you possibly can. And three,
21:57
turn around when the plan says to, not when you
22:01
feel like quitting. The summit is optional. Getting
22:06
back to the car is mandatory. That sentence?
22:10
is going to come up again and again on this show.
22:14
On that middle rule, acclimatizing, let me give
22:17
you something concrete, because people underestimate
22:19
this constantly. The campgrounds and trailheads
22:23
up the scenic drive sit near 10 ,000 feet. If
22:27
you can sleep a night at that elevation before
22:29
you attempt the summit, do it. Your body needs
22:33
time to adjust to thin air, and there is no shortcut
22:36
and no toughing it out. Fitness does not protect
22:40
you from altitude. I've watched marathon runners
22:43
get laid flat by it while a patient, slow, 60
22:46
-year -old strolls to the top feeling fine. Drink
22:50
more water than feels necessary. Eight, move
22:54
at a pace that lets you hold a conversation.
22:58
And if you start getting a pounding, headache,
23:01
nausea, dizziness, that's your body telling you
23:05
something and the only reliable cure. is to go
23:09
down. I'm going to go deep on altitude, what
23:13
thin air actually does to your body and how to
23:16
stay ahead of it in the survival episode right
23:19
after this Great Basin series. If Wheeler Peak
23:23
is on your list, that episode is required listening
23:27
before you go. I'm not going to cram it in here
23:31
and do it badly. Let's talk about timing because
23:38
When you come matters as much as anything. The
23:44
realistic window for the full park, the open
23:46
scenic drive, the high trails, the summit, is
23:50
roughly late June through September. That's when
23:54
the snow's gone from up high and the road to
23:56
the top is open. July and August are the warmest
24:01
and busiest, though busy here is relative. This
24:06
is still one of the quietest national parks you'll
24:08
ever set foot in. September into October is honestly
24:13
my favorite. The aspens turn gold, the crowds
24:17
thin even further, the air gets crisp, and the
24:21
nights, which we're about to get, to get longer
24:23
and darker. Now, the thing people from lower
24:27
country never quite believe until it happens
24:29
to them. At this elevation, the weather is its
24:33
own animal. It can be 80 degrees and sunny in
24:38
the valley and snowing on Wheeler Peak the same
24:41
afternoon. Summer thunderstorms build up over
24:44
the high country fast, often in the early afternoon,
24:48
and on an exposed ridge at 13 ,000 feet. A thunderstorm
24:53
is not a nuisance. It's the most dangerous thing
24:58
on that mountain. That's the reason for the start
25:03
early rule. You want to be up and back down off
25:06
the exposed summit before those afternoon storms
25:10
build. Lightning above treeline kills people
25:13
in the mountains every single year, and it is
25:17
almost entirely avoidable with an early start
25:20
and the discipline to turn around. I'll cover
25:24
the science of mountain lightning in a future
25:26
Field Skills episode 2. For Great Basin, just
25:29
internalize this. are a gift, and afternoons
25:36
are a threat. Plan accordingly. Whatever the
25:41
season, dress in layers and bring more than you
25:46
think you need. The temperature swing between
25:49
a desert afternoon and an alpine night here can
25:53
be 40, 50 degrees. And carry water, real water,
25:58
lots of it. This is High Desert. The standard
26:03
backcountry rule is about a gallon per person
26:06
per day. When you're active and out here, that's
26:09
not paranoia. That's math. And now, the thing
26:15
that, for a lot of people, ends up being the
26:18
part they never forget. The reason the park's
26:21
own slogan is, half the park is after dark. Great
26:27
Basin is one of the darkest places left in the
26:29
United States. It's a certified international
26:32
dark sky park, and it has earned it. Think about
26:37
why. No cities for a hundred miles in any direction.
26:43
High elevation, so you're above a chunk of the
26:46
atmosphere. Dry desert air with very little moisture
26:50
or haze. Add it all up, and you get a night sky
26:55
most modern Americans have, quite literally,
26:58
never seen. And I want to be specific about what
27:02
that means. Because most of us have never experienced
27:06
a truly dark sky and don't know what we're missing.
27:10
On a clear, moonless night here, you don't look
27:14
up and see a few scattered stars. You see thousands
27:18
of them at once. The Milky Way isn't a faint
27:22
smudge. It's a bright, structured band of light
27:25
thrown straight across the whole sky. so bright
27:28
it can cast a faint shadow on the ground. People
27:33
get genuinely emotional the first time they see
27:35
it. It rearranges your sense of where you are.
27:41
The park leans into this. During the summer season,
27:45
rangers run astronomy programs. Telescopes set
27:49
up, the night sky narrated, often right by the
27:52
Lehman Caves Visitor Center. There's an annual
27:55
astronomy festival. But honestly, you don't need
28:00
a program. You need a clear night, a moonless
28:03
one if you can time it, a chair, a warm jacket,
28:07
and the patience to let your eyes adjust for
28:11
20 or 30 minutes in real darkness. Then just
28:15
look up. Plan your trip around a new moon if
28:20
the night sky is a priority. A full moon, as
28:24
beautiful as it is, washes a lot of this out.
28:27
Here's how I'd tie the whole visit together.
28:30
The way the park itself does. You go underground,
28:34
into the cave, in the heat of the day. Cool,
28:38
dark, ancient. You climb the mountain in the
28:41
morning, through 5 ,000 years of trees. And then
28:46
at night, you lie back and look at starlight
28:48
that left its source thousands of years ago.
28:52
Deep time underground. Deep time in the trees.
28:57
Time overhead. That's Great Basin. It's all the
29:02
same lesson told three different ways. Let me
29:08
give you a clean way to actually structure a
29:10
couple of days here. So this isn't just a list.
29:15
If you've got two days, here's a simple, strong
29:18
plan. Day one. Arrive, stop at the visitor center,
29:24
lock in your details. Do your booked Lehman Caves
29:28
tour. Then, drive up the scenic drive, stop at
29:32
Mather Overlook, and do the Alpine Lakes Loop
29:35
to stretch your legs at elevation and start acclimatizing.
29:39
That evening, stay up for the stars. Day 2. If
29:45
you're fit and the weather's good, get on the
29:48
Wheeler Peak Summit Trail at first light. If
29:51
the summit's not your goal, do the Bristle Cone
29:54
and Glacier Trail instead. Less brutal, just
29:58
as memorable. Either way, you're back down by
30:01
early afternoon, ahead of the storms. If you've
30:05
only got one day, be honest with yourself and
30:08
pick two things, not five. A cave tour in the
30:13
morning and the bristlecone grove in the afternoon
30:15
is a near -perfect day. That shows you the two
30:21
things this park is most famous for, top and
30:24
bottom of the mountain. Save the summit for a
30:28
trip where you can give it the respect it demands.
30:32
So, that's the visit. Get there with a full tank
30:36
and a downloaded map. Book that cave tour ahead
30:41
of time. Please book it ahead. Check whether
30:45
the high road is open. Climb through the life
30:48
zones. Stand among the oldest trees on Earth.
30:52
And do not leave without looking up. Next episode,
30:58
part three, is where to stay. The campgrounds
31:02
on the mountain and down by the creeks. The tiny
31:05
town of Baker. And how to base yourself for everything
31:09
we just covered. And after that, the survival
31:13
episode I keep promising. Altitude. Because if
31:17
Wheeler Peak is calling you, the thin air up
31:20
there is the one thing most likely to turn a
31:23
great day into a bad one. and it's almost entirely
31:26
manageable once you understand it. Everything
31:30
we covered today, current road status, cave reservation
31:33
links, trail maps, the dark sky calendar, is
31:36
collected for you at wildlandsnews .com. Check
31:41
it before you drive out, because in a place this
31:45
remote and this weather dependent, current information
31:48
is the most valuable thing you can carry. This
31:53
has been Wildlands. Know the land before you
31:58
reach it. I'll see you on the next one.