Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James H about his choice of Arc of Infinity (4/4)

Transcript

Talks to James H about his choice of Arc of Infinity (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt. Pen knife for doing quicker,
• 0:35
  quicker, quicker. So whilst fighting off bodily
• 0:41
  fusion and dealing with time, all confusion Omegas in front.
• 0:48
  So with pen knife that's blunt, the hamster presents the
• 0:52
  conclusion. Anything to live and Arc of
• 0:58
  Infinity. Oh, do you know what you think
• 1:01
  you've come close to a Fraser Gregory intro there.
• 1:04
  That was gold, right? Question.
• 1:08
  I do have a question for you and it is about the barely mentioned
• 1:12
  Eric's The World, who is pretty much responsible for everything
• 1:18
  that we see mid 80s. Well, him and him and him and
• 1:22
  Levine. That's.
• 1:23
  Him and Levine, Yeah. Although I do think Soward is is
• 1:28
  as far as creative control is concerned.
• 1:32
  But kind of. I'm going to sum it up as yay or
• 1:35
  nay he is. Such a difficult one to yay or
• 1:41
  nay. Seriously.
• 1:44
  Again, I get the very, very strong feeling.
• 1:51
  That he is. Part of the kind of the victim
• 1:58
  he's, part he, he's a. Victim in part of the BBC
• 2:01
  politics behind Doctor Who in the 80s.
• 2:08
  I think had JNT left earlier, I think there probably would have
• 2:16
  been a better working relationship between them.
• 2:19
  Because, you know, J&TI don't think wanted to be there, you
• 2:22
  know, I mean, bear in mind, you know, wasn't I say kind of, you
• 2:26
  know, didn't he basically start time in the Ronnie without a
• 2:31
  doctor, without a script editor, without writers, you know,
• 2:36
  because he believed that he would be handing over to someone
• 2:38
  else? Yeah.
• 2:40
  I think that you've got two incredibly strong personalities
• 2:47
  and I think. Both of them have got the
• 2:51
  problem that they make mistakes but don't back down.
• 2:57
  You know, I think quite frankly, if they were both on Twitter
• 3:00
  somehow those spats would have been works of art.
• 3:04
  Amazing, we we missed out by not having J&T on these DVD and
• 3:09
  Blu-ray releases, didn't we? I wish.
• 3:12
  I really wish. I think he's a very troubled,
• 3:16
  very complex personality. And again, I think there is a
• 3:19
  massive conflict between him and Saywood and I don't think either
• 3:24
  of them are to blame. I think everything in the 80s is
• 3:29
  basically the BB. C Have put Match and Jellic
• 3:34
  Night in the same room together and are shaking the box as much
• 3:37
  as they can. You've got two people with very
• 3:41
  different visions for the show. Both visions are perfectly
• 3:45
  valid. I'm not, you know, I.
• 3:47
  I'm not going to take sides on this because I think I yeah.
• 3:52
  Again, I don't know the full details.
• 3:55
  I know there were all kinds of fallings out between the two,
• 3:58
  but I think that's down to kind of both of them.
• 4:01
  And I said you know the the, the year long hiatus, you know,
• 4:06
  trying to keep interest going. John Nathan Turner was a
• 4:09
  showman. Eric Saywood was down to earth.
• 4:15
  John Nathan Turner wanted to sell the show abroad.
• 4:17
  So you got things like Arkham Infinity, you got Planets of
• 4:19
  Fire. Saywood probably was much more
• 4:22
  realistic in terms of budget and what could be achieved.
• 4:27
  Saywood was was fighting to go back to come out the grimmer and
• 4:31
  gritty I mean because you got things like wasn't he involved
• 4:33
  with gangsters the so that's his background.
• 4:38
  Giant T is definitely not grim and gritty, you know.
• 4:42
  I was always sort of. That fusion of J&T's Light
• 4:46
  Entertainment and Sward wanted to do gritty drama, and it is a
• 4:50
  weird fusion it can produce. But I do think that if you
• 4:54
  don't, if you don't have J&T's light entertainment, it would be
• 4:57
  too dark. Oh God it would.
• 4:58
  Be It would be brutal. I mean, you take out Swards Grit
• 5:04
  and so there's two times I think where J&T is kind of.
• 5:08
  Out of the show is mine's doing panto during sort of Revelation
• 5:13
  of the Daleks time, lash time and I think obviously Saywood's
• 5:16
  gone come time in the Ronnie and Carmel's not really in yet so.
• 5:22
  Tom and Iran is a glimpse at J&T's vision for the show, and
• 5:26
  Revelation of the Daleks is a glimpse at Eric Sowa's vision
• 5:29
  for the show. And I do think they're both
• 5:32
  perfectly valid. And I love both those stories.
• 5:34
  I mean, and again you got Tom and Irani, which is so far
• 5:38
  removed from the original vision just because of BBC
• 5:43
  practicalities. But it's so funny I.
• 5:46
  Mean John Mason Turner thinks he's got the budget of Dallas,
• 5:51
  you know. He certainly got the hair of
• 5:53
  Dallas in that one, isn't he? And the no studs.
• 5:56
  So I you know, I don't. I don't think either of them are
• 6:01
  particularly empathetic people. I think they are brick walls,
• 6:07
  and I think that that's the problem, that you've got brick
• 6:10
  walls who are loggerheads. I'm so mixing my metaphors here.
• 6:16
  What? The the basically kind of like
• 6:18
  you know you. There is no compromise between
• 6:23
  them, and that's the problem neither.
• 6:26
  We're going to give ground. And because the BBC are shaking
• 6:30
  things up so much and you've got other outside influences like
• 6:36
  Levine creeping in more and more and more.
• 6:41
  I mean, you've got all kinds of rumors about, you know, why
• 6:44
  Colin was fired. You've got, yeah.
• 6:47
  It's just, you know. The whole 80s is an impossible
• 6:51
  time for Doctor Who and. But I do wonder if you had a
• 6:55
  script editor and a producer that were in sympathy for each
• 6:58
  other and had one vision of the show, they could have written
• 7:03
  over some of the problems, you know, with the BBC at the time.
• 7:06
  Then again, do you get rid of John Nathan Turner and have
• 7:10
  someone who's in sympathy with Saywood, or do you go to Saywood
• 7:12
  and have someone who's in sympathy with John Nathan
• 7:14
  Turner? Because I think kind of the joy
• 7:17
  of the 80s is you have got both ends of the spectrum.
• 7:22
  The pendulum swings as far as quality is concerned, doesn't
• 7:25
  it? And when it swings in the right
• 7:26
  direction, it's as good as the show's ever been.
• 7:29
  Oh, absolutely. And even when it swings, as
• 7:33
  we're seeing, you know, to a slightly less extreme place, you
• 7:37
  know there's still moments of greatness, you know, there's
• 7:40
  still some real bold decisions that pay off, you know?
• 7:45
  And what's what's really interesting as far as the
• 7:47
  podcast is concerned is you know where things don't work and you
• 7:53
  get to talk about all of this. And it's just like, you know,
• 7:57
  there the trouble. Is, you know we, we, everyone
• 8:00
  gets into this wonderful realms of what if and how about and
• 8:03
  stuff. Sometimes it's fascinating,
• 8:05
  other times it's heartbreaking. And you never know until you
• 8:09
  start on that path which way it's going to go.
• 8:12
  I think I say up until today. I'd never thought about opening
• 8:16
  season 20. Just like A2 parter with just
• 8:19
  the 5th Doctrine, Nissa, just give Sarah Sutton that one story
• 8:23
  to really steal the show. You know, don't have her in a
• 8:28
  full TARDIS. Don't have her dominated by,
• 8:31
  let's rephrase this, Don't have her overshadowed by Janet
• 8:35
  Fielding. You know, just be.
• 8:37
  Bold. Like do a character tale deal
• 8:39
  with the death of Patrick and the death of her father and all
• 8:42
  of that stuff. Let's have some depth, yeah?
• 8:46
  What we're talking about is sort of beautiful freak from the
• 8:50
  Doctor Who comics, isn't it? Just a small interlude, you
• 8:53
  know. Yeah, that was love that.
• 8:55
  Was great. Yes, that whole 8th Doctor era.
• 9:03
  But I think like what we we said in an earlier episode is I think
• 9:06
  they're far more concerned with where does this slot in
• 9:09
  continuity wise than they are with where are the companions
• 9:13
  headspaces, yeah. And it's also a case of, you
• 9:17
  know, where are we filming this scene?
• 9:19
  Oh yes, it's in. It's in the corridor again.
• 9:23
  We're still in the. We're still very much in the era
• 9:26
  of hit 10:00 o'clock and the lights go out.
• 9:30
  You know, I'm looking forward to the Blu Rays just for the
• 9:33
  production PDF's of this era. I'd love to see just the lights
• 9:37
  go out in one scene whilst they're shooting.
• 9:39
  I think there is some footage where they literally finish at
• 9:44
  9:59 in like 50 seconds and the cameras are still rolling when
• 9:48
  the lights go out. I mean there's there's loads of
• 9:52
  behind the scenes stuff from Arc of Infinity.
• 9:55
  There's loads of course from Time Flow which is on the Blu
• 9:58
  rays, so I'm hoping. Will get the Arc of Infinity
• 10:01
  stuff, like when they're Wheeling the TARDIS into
• 10:04
  position and something. This doesn't throw a lot on
• 10:06
  wheels, you know, but bloody well does.
• 10:08
  But you can see them in half the shots.
• 10:12
  One very unusual thing that Arc of Infinity episode 4 does is
• 10:18
  saves a lot of its location work for the last episode.
• 10:21
  Most Doctor Who stories, it's in the first episode.
• 10:24
  It's like the that sort of opening critical, trying to
• 10:27
  impress then. This is quite unusual in.
• 10:30
  The case of City of Death, it's in episode 3 because they needed
• 10:33
  padding. Yeah.
• 10:35
  Sorry, I'm. I'm not a City of Death fan, so
• 10:38
  kind of. Well, there's a few others like
• 10:40
  you, you know, I think Gary Russell's cane over.
• 10:42
  They're crawling out of the woodwork occasionally, right?
• 10:47
  Pro Ark of Infinity and see City of Death.
• 10:50
  You're a unique man. Yeah, right.
• 10:53
  Are we ready for a countdown? Yeah, I'm ready. 3/2.
• 10:58
  One go. That was a typically brilliant
• 11:02
  reading on support, by the way. I knew I'd get a great answer
• 11:05
  out of here. It's it's true though I don't
• 11:10
  know enough about what's going on to come down one side or the
• 11:13
  other and I think without knowing the full details it
• 11:16
  would be deeply unfair to to to pick a side.
• 11:22
  I think it's also, as you said, unfortunately we don't have John
• 11:25
  Nathan turning around to put his side across.
• 11:27
  On things like The Trial Blu-ray.
• 11:29
  All I know is is Eric's award will certainly point the finger
• 11:33
  a lot at John Nathan Turner, and the one sort of opportunity in a
• 11:36
  big interview he gave, John Nathan Turner refused to do that
• 11:40
  about Eric's award, which I found quite interesting.
• 11:43
  Yeah. Omega controls the matrix.
• 11:49
  It's just a big head on a screen.
• 11:51
  Again, notice that the set is then later on reflected in trial
• 11:56
  of the Time Lord. Yeah, it's the Matrix screen.
• 12:01
  And I believe as well they may have kept the walls.
• 12:06
  That copper effect wallpaper. Yes, very, very stylish.
• 12:10
  But it was the 80s, yeah. It's like, quick we're done with
• 12:13
  Gallup right now. To Amsterdam, it's.
• 12:16
  Pastels colors. It's Browns that are left over
• 12:19
  from the 70s, you know. Is this where we get that
• 12:22
  fabulous line about the pulse loop?
• 12:25
  I can't remember. I can't.
• 12:27
  Remember, he goes, the pulse loop.
• 12:28
  The very thing. Richard Thalia.
• 12:31
  I mean, there's some fantastic humor in episode 4 as well,
• 12:34
  actually. It's there.
• 12:35
  You have to point that out when we get there.
• 12:37
  But. There was some lovely kind of
• 12:39
  moments of actually, you know, this is quite touching literally
• 12:44
  in a case of hands, you know, Tegan is concerned.
• 12:48
  And some intrigued. I should probably ask this off
• 12:50
  mic and not while we're in the episode, but doesn't mean you're
• 12:53
  not a fan of season 17. I love the rest of season 17.
• 12:57
  How interesting. I just don't like the, oh by the
• 13:01
  way, the flashback there. We've second time we've had the
• 13:04
  coronet of rustle on. You know, we they are keeping
• 13:08
  the certain things going for the technical side of things.
• 13:12
  We're just in a different part of the Citadel.
• 13:16
  Well, again, I do think they are concentrated on things that are
• 13:21
  not important when they should be focusing on things that are.
• 13:25
  Oh, here we go Wibbly Tegan again.
• 13:27
  Yeah. Oh, this way she accidentally
• 13:30
  she goes saw Amsterdam Doctor. Holland, Amsterdam, You.
• 13:37
  Tell him the precise location and you'll die, and then he
• 13:40
  doesn't kill her. Well, he kind of makes her
• 13:44
  scream, yeah. So do we wonder if she is dead
• 13:48
  now? Oh no.
• 13:49
  We know very quickly the Doctor thinks she's dead.
• 13:52
  Yeah, I did, you know. I still think that he's a screen
• 13:56
  grab from Castra Valva. It's.
• 13:58
  Unfortunate in the first story of the season that he's been
• 14:02
  thrown into the Matrix for an episode and a half and not been
• 14:05
  allowed to do anything. It's it's more of a midseason
• 14:08
  story. It would have been greatest
• 14:10
  season story. He's not an opener.
• 14:14
  That's the real problem. Well, as you know, I would say
• 14:18
  that had the production been a superior.
• 14:21
  One, I think. I think.
• 14:23
  Warriors of the Deep is a season opener.
• 14:26
  It's on paper. It's a season opener.
• 14:30
  And on audio it is. It's just when you watch the
• 14:34
  bloody thing, I think her hair is getting more dramatic per
• 14:39
  episode, you know? Contest with Colin Baker.
• 14:46
  What I miss from the modern consoles and not the but the
• 14:49
  modern TARDIS control room, because you've got the bloody
• 14:53
  police box doors, you haven't got the nice big red knob to
• 14:57
  throw, you know, slam it to close the doors.
• 15:03
  Yeah, I know, I know. You right.
• 15:05
  Yeah, I want to know if the if one of them would fix the
• 15:10
  comedian circuit, what would have happened to the police box
• 15:13
  doors? God knows.
• 15:16
  Oh well, on the interior you mean?
• 15:18
  Yeah. Yeah, That's a good question.
• 15:20
  I do like that though. I do like.
• 15:22
  The Fact TARDIS Toolkit as featured very heavily in the
• 15:26
  TARDIS Technical Manual. Oh, you didn't have that to do.
• 15:31
  Oh, you've got it. Now it's.
• 15:33
  Not quite within reaches, no. It's not quite within reach.
• 15:38
  Did they manage a joke with that big red knob when I swear that
• 15:41
  someone? Presses it, and then someone
• 15:43
  presses it back, and then someone presses it again it came
• 15:47
  to. The story it's.
• 15:50
  Five doctors when he when he claims to have fixed the console
• 15:55
  and then the door doesn't work and then it's there is also a
• 15:59
  very rude bit of behind the scenes tomfoolery.
• 16:02
  Yes, I'll say that. Oh, the doctors delighted there
• 16:08
  in Amsterdam. Look, drugs.
• 16:11
  So. Now now these sort of
• 16:17
  characters, they're not trying to escape, they are just in.
• 16:21
  Again, there's too many prison cells, right?
• 16:25
  This location work is gorgeous. Like yes, but it's like.
• 16:31
  Hunt the Tegan in this city. And.
• 16:37
  It's it's going back to the whole kind of Zoe thing of her
• 16:40
  not knowing certain things, Nissa not knowing what a
• 16:42
  telephone book is. And actually, for once, the
• 16:50
  Doctor being an alien really impacts on this episode because
• 16:55
  of course he doesn't have any coins in his pocket.
• 16:58
  So they've gotta do. Nissa Money.
• 17:01
  Yeah. That's not a bad joke.
• 17:03
  That's not a. Bad joke.
• 17:04
  I could also comment that if this was maybe Russell T Davis,
• 17:08
  there would be in a way that this could have got the money.
• 17:12
  They're enamstered that. The Doctor's not going to start
• 17:16
  pimping out this, so you know. Oh, come on.
• 17:19
  Look at her. She's beautiful.
• 17:20
  Yeah. It was a sort of omic arriving
• 17:25
  around there. He's got all that sort of slime
• 17:28
  and snot all over his head. And then that sort of water
• 17:31
  thing on the wall is steadily rising.
• 17:34
  I understand what that. Earth is going on.
• 17:37
  That was. The bizarre justification for
• 17:40
  setting it in Amsterdam? The fusion booster or something
• 17:43
  like that. Right now, being the Scientist,
• 17:49
  I can do this. I.
• 17:51
  Can justify it being in Amsterdam.
• 17:53
  Go on, go ahead. Because Amsterdam is beneath
• 17:56
  water level, so therefore there's all these dams around,
• 17:59
  which means they've got huge. Supplies of static water, which
• 18:03
  means you're more likely to have what's called heavy water, which
• 18:06
  is called deuterium, which is necessary for nuclear fusion,
• 18:10
  which is a power supply required to bond only go with the doctor.
• 18:19
  That's really interesting. But bollocks.
• 18:23
  Well, no, no, no. It's clearly not bollocks, is
• 18:25
  it? It's clearly, you know, they
• 18:27
  fall it through. No, they haven't.
• 18:29
  They haven't fallen through. Why?
• 18:31
  Does my car just say and answer them like?
• 18:33
  No, no. It is wonderful though, seeing
• 18:37
  them actually run around but running around with purpose
• 18:41
  rather than just to pad out, you know they are starting to ramp
• 18:46
  up the tension they. They've got to go to different
• 18:49
  locations. It's kind of.
• 18:51
  And for the first time in the whole story, it does feel like
• 18:54
  there's a bit of pace. Yeah, and it's again, it's
• 18:57
  because they couldn't decide if they wanted the legal courtroom
• 19:00
  stuff or they wanted the Omega story.
• 19:02
  They went for this bizarre fusion of both, and it resulted
• 19:06
  in the mishmash of of of Arkham Infinity.
• 19:13
  Of the artificial and the natural.
• 19:18
  But what's great is we have, we have sort of 20 minutes in
• 19:20
  Amsterdam now, big thumbs up and then we just cut back to
• 19:25
  Gallifrey for like 10 seconds when they go over because it's
• 19:28
  been defeated. Well, I hope he finds peace soon
• 19:31
  and then that's it. When?
• 19:34
  Now I will also, by the way, tell you my Amsterdam story when
• 19:37
  the relevant bit comes up, because there is a, you know, a
• 19:40
  wonderful kind of thing that I didn't know about Amsterdam that
• 19:44
  makes this story so much more fun for me.
• 19:46
  Oh, go on. No, but I say it's it's gonna
• 19:48
  come. OK, my first space cake in
• 19:52
  Amsterdam. It was a very funny evening.
• 19:55
  I hand on heart. I've been offered drugs so many
• 19:58
  times in my life, I've never tried them.
• 20:00
  I've. I thought I was flying.
• 20:01
  I was convinced that my feet had turned to clouds.
• 20:04
  Seriously, The state my mental health is in, I don't need you
• 20:09
  don't need help. You know we've got the music is
• 20:12
  finally ramping up the tension. We've got them running from
• 20:14
  location to location trying to find why.
• 20:18
  Notice in this scene it's been raining.
• 20:20
  We're clearly on different days in Amsterdam.
• 20:24
  Yeah, and okay. I don't want to really criticize
• 20:29
  the location work because I'm really pleased we're outside.
• 20:31
  But I went to answer and I it was really pretty place.
• 20:35
  I don't think they're quite capturing it as gloriously as.
• 20:39
  It is. I'm told that Amsterdam has been
• 20:43
  improved over the years. So kind of, I don't know how
• 20:46
  much of this reflects how it was in the 80s and how much it's
• 20:51
  changed in the intervening 40 years.
• 20:52
  Because, yeah, I went there. Was it 7-8 or nine years ago
• 20:56
  now? I think it is.
• 20:58
  But yeah, we're back into the dark, brooding mystery.
• 21:02
  And it is, you know, it does work well with the low lighting
• 21:07
  because they haven't had to kind of.
• 21:09
  Do masses of set decoration because the low lighting does
• 21:12
  the set decoration for them, and I love as well.
• 21:14
  I think it's like a weird sort of detail to focus on.
• 21:17
  As they came down the stairs. There was also a Moss on the
• 21:19
  stairs. There's cobwebs hanging
• 21:22
  everywhere. It just feels like a real place
• 21:24
  and it's lit sympathetically. And not All Eighty's Doctor Who
• 21:28
  is lit sympathetically. But it's because it's a real
• 21:31
  place that they could research and they could think about.
• 21:35
  It's a very funny bit in a second, you know, where the
• 21:37
  Ergon comes out and Nissa turns around and it takes a few
• 21:40
  seconds before she screams. Yeah, right now, yeah.
• 21:44
  When they're looking at the Fusion booster, which could have
• 21:46
  been used to to detail the plot, you were going to say something
• 21:52
  just then when I when I said that.
• 21:55
  Oh no, It was the fusion booster where they could have explained
• 21:57
  the plot, they could have justified it, They could have
• 22:00
  done this great big thing about why it's in.
• 22:03
  Well, the by the way, the revised laser effect is
• 22:05
  gorgeous. I've sort of got that candy
• 22:09
  strip effects that you have from Earth Shock.
• 22:12
  And shows how it could have been.
• 22:14
  Oh, now see, now look, when the doctors wrestling with the ergo,
• 22:17
  it does seem a bit like a rubber chicken.
• 22:20
  Actually, you can hear it clanking.
• 22:21
  You can hear the trite, and you can hear the armor bashing
• 22:24
  against itself. She's bloody shooting things
• 22:26
  again. So it's gone from Ergon to
• 22:28
  Ergoff. Sorry, I'll tell you what.
• 22:33
  I do love this, Nissa. You know, with a gun.
• 22:39
  One of Omega's less successful attempts at psychosynthesis.
• 22:42
  Which again, I couldn't get it out.
• 22:44
  What? Does the Doctor know this?
• 22:45
  Where has it? You know he's read the script.
• 22:49
  Yeah. Step into the light, Doctor, and
• 22:52
  you'll come out as Colin Baker. I mean, that's a lovely effect
• 22:55
  for going in the TARDIS, that white light in the dry eyes.
• 22:59
  Trouble is, it bears no resemblance to on the inside.
• 23:05
  No. He's an orgasm chair.
• 23:07
  He's waving his groin around and and again, special effects over
• 23:11
  Tegan on the the revised version.
• 23:14
  I mean, the Blu-ray of season 20 is basically premade because.
• 23:18
  Arc has new effects. Modern has new effects.
• 23:20
  You've got special enlightenment, Yeah.
• 23:26
  The effects, yeah, I mean there is a lot of talk that is coming
• 23:30
  out next, isn't there so. Yeah, I wish you know they could
• 23:35
  announce it. The arc of Infinity is shifting.
• 23:40
  This means what? It's the link between dimensions
• 23:43
  which suggests that actually there's a subdimension between
• 23:46
  matter and antimatter. It's again, there's just.
• 23:51
  It just doesn't mean anything though, does it?
• 23:53
  They they could have put a few extra lines in to justify, to
• 23:59
  explain, to clarify, but instead we are left to kind of you know.
• 24:07
  It's. True.
• 24:08
  If you're going to sort of use this techno Bible in these big
• 24:12
  ideas, you need to bring it down to a personal level somehow so
• 24:15
  it connects with my head. Yeah.
• 24:18
  Otherwise it's just space words and I'm.
• 24:20
  Going. So this bit is actually, you
• 24:24
  know, really well done. This is kind of like, you know,
• 24:30
  technically you mean. Technically it is very well
• 24:33
  done. Yeah, cannot.
• 24:34
  You know where's the join between the two big.
• 24:38
  Because it. Would have been so easy to have
• 24:40
  them against a really clean, neat wall.
• 24:44
  But no, they've got the dirt, they've got the wires hanging
• 24:46
  down, They've gone out of their way to really line that join up
• 24:50
  and hide it. And this is where you see what
• 24:52
  Peter Davison can do. Yeah, When he plays over, go.
• 24:56
  Oh, it's weird, though, because of course they've still got the
• 24:59
  other voice over the top of it, and that's just kind of like,
• 25:03
  freaky. Why is there all that dirt in
• 25:05
  the TARDIS? It just.
• 25:06
  Blew up because the the the the arc shifted and the bonding
• 25:11
  wasn't complete. But dirt?
• 25:15
  Oh, it's something Star Trek, though.
• 25:16
  Have you ever, You know when the Where the hell does all that mud
• 25:20
  come from? No, it's when the consoles blow
• 25:22
  up and all the rocks come out. Why they fill with those
• 25:25
  consoles full of rocks. Right.
• 25:28
  Is it just for dramatic effect? Is that what you're saying?
• 25:30
  OK. But actually, there's no real
• 25:32
  mud you can. What is there is all of litter
• 25:35
  there from blown up circuit boards?
• 25:38
  Right. So yeah, the people in Amsterdam
• 25:41
  are, I mean, I know there's all the drugs and everything, but
• 25:45
  you'll notice. I mean, they don't take any
• 25:47
  notice of anything going on when he's covered in slime and Ross
• 25:51
  Krispies. And more importantly, when he's
• 25:54
  also blowing. Up because I didn't.
• 25:58
  Know this, I I foolishly went on holiday to Amsterdam seven or
• 26:02
  eight years ago. And it because it's time I was
• 26:05
  teaching you you can only take holidays at certain times of
• 26:08
  year. So we had a like a weekend break
• 26:12
  for New Year's Eve. So we decided we'd do Christmas
• 26:17
  with family and stuff and then we would go to Amsterdam for New
• 26:20
  Year's Eve. There is a tradition in
• 26:24
  Amsterdam on New Year's Eve. Where?
• 26:27
  Basically fireworks are let off. I don't mean firework displays.
• 26:33
  I mean, people are standing in the street throwing lit
• 26:36
  fireworks around. That doesn't sound safe.
• 26:43
  I we were terrified. I I love this look of
• 26:47
  bewilderment with the child. It's just like, you know, Oh my
• 26:50
  God. It's like it's young life.
• 26:52
  It's optimistic. It's my God.
• 26:54
  My face can smile. But anyway, yeah, see, that is a
• 26:58
  lovely scene. Yeah.
• 26:59
  Do you know, just like, because of where we are in this day and
• 27:04
  age, an adult staring down at a child like that?
• 27:08
  Like, like it's just too easy to give it a bad reading, isn't it?
• 27:12
  Yeah. It's terrible.
• 27:14
  The fact that Omega is discovering music again is
• 27:17
  discovering happiness again. He's just so.
• 27:19
  Physicality again. They're going for the same thing
• 27:22
  as the three dogs on it. He's a tragic figure, yeah.
• 27:27
  So anyway, I mean, say kind of I've somewhere, I've still got
• 27:30
  the video footage that I took, but yeah.
• 27:33
  Basically, kind of us not knowing about this thing.
• 27:35
  We were cowering and terrified for our lives.
• 27:38
  Everyone else announced I was like bang for any they're
• 27:41
  throwing and no one that's an eyelid, no one gives a damn and
• 27:45
  it's just like and I'm sorry, but also you got Tegan dressed
• 27:49
  like she should have red light shone on her.
• 27:52
  And again, that's why probably if they saw Peter Davidson
• 27:55
  running around with two women dressed in unusual manner, I
• 28:00
  would ban all it. And Peter Davidson covered in
• 28:02
  Rice Krispies, I'm sorry, Amsterdam is the fetish capital.
• 28:05
  They they know all of this. They've seen all of this.
• 28:09
  They've done all of this. Yeah, I'll tell you the
• 28:12
  difference, right, between Amsterdam and England, and I'm
• 28:14
  so sorry to do this whilst Doctor Who is playing out, but
• 28:18
  like, so I've been into Sauners in Brighton and I've been into
• 28:21
  Sauners in Amsterdam, OK? And in Amsterdam they are just
• 28:24
  sitting on sun lounges drinking coffee, letting it all hang out.
• 28:28
  You walk in and they're like, oh great, let's go in Brighton.
• 28:32
  They're all sort of cowering in corners, all a bit embarrassed.
• 28:35
  They just are so relaxed in Amsterdam and London's.
• 28:39
  About halfway between the two, apparently.
• 28:42
  No, I don't. It's not the soreness.
• 28:44
  I love the relaxed atmosphere. Everyone's out till halfway
• 28:47
  through the night. They're drinking.
• 28:49
  It's a wonderful place. It is gorgeous.
• 28:53
  I mean, the only weird thing I didn't see was a man running
• 28:55
  around in a boiler suit covered in green slime.
• 28:58
  I know you haven't lived, but you only thought you saw.
• 29:04
  I mean, again. That's the other thing.
• 29:05
  Anyone who's on drugs sing. This being filmed is because
• 29:07
  it's a normal day. What's the point where Peter
• 29:12
  Davidson's out and Ian Collier is back in Covered in all the
• 29:17
  Russ, Chris. It's.
• 29:18
  Basically when the entire face is covered because I don't think
• 29:23
  there's split screen down on location.
• 29:27
  I think split screen is only. Studio.
• 29:29
  I think it's really well done, only because the first time I
• 29:32
  watched this I didn't notice. Yeah.
• 29:35
  No, I say. It's you know, does this feel a
• 29:39
  bit like a travel log though, you know like sort of wish you
• 29:42
  were here, Doctor Who edition do.
• 29:46
  You remember Judith Chalmers? I do because quite.
• 29:49
  Frankly, the state of her skin by the end of Wish You Were
• 29:52
  Here, it was going to. Be the Doctor Who And you know
• 29:55
  this is the kind of. You know.
• 29:57
  You hear bangs and clatterings. People in Amsterdam ignore it
• 30:03
  and kind of, you know, I love that.
• 30:06
  He'll be all right. It's so obscure though, isn't
• 30:11
  it? Oh, someone screams that must be
• 30:13
  Omiga. Someone's falling over in an
• 30:15
  alley. That must be Omiga.
• 30:19
  But I like the idea that, you know, he's he's finally embraced
• 30:23
  this sort of humanoid form and he's having a good time.
• 30:26
  With it. That's the end, Collier.
• 30:29
  Yeah, it's good. It's well.
• 30:30
  Done. Because it's the pan, It's not
• 30:33
  split screen and Davidson comes in from the side and yeah, the
• 30:38
  eyebrows give it away. The close up of the eyebrows is
• 30:42
  slightly wrong, so you can tell. So he simply cannot exist in
• 30:47
  this universe. Exists in this universe, but it
• 30:50
  is, you know, it's also quite and it's interesting to kind of.
• 30:55
  They've realized they've got a face that's kind of melting, but
• 30:57
  they did that effect in Black Orchid.
• 30:59
  So they need to have something new this time.
• 31:02
  And dare I suggest, instead of the mystery plot in the the act
• 31:07
  of Christie plot, the technobabble that we just told a
• 31:11
  character story about Omega. Which I know is what Big Finish
• 31:15
  then went on to to brilliantly as well that Niff anger at the
• 31:18
  end of episode 3. Did not see that coming.
• 31:21
  It's so great. And Sarah Sutton?
• 31:26
  She can't keep up with everyone. I mean Charlie's she's got heels
• 31:32
  on, whereas Tegan is finally in. No, no.
• 31:34
  Tegan's got heels on as well. Blessed.
• 31:38
  It does not have the most miserable day.
• 31:40
  They could have filmed this. Yeah, but so this is this is our
• 31:45
  big climax here. That Omega could potentially
• 31:47
  destroy the entire universe. Because he's about to revert to
• 31:51
  being antimatter realized with a few sparks going off in his
• 31:56
  jacket. Well.
• 31:57
  It's the start of it which then kind of but the the the
• 32:00
  hairstyle is slightly on stunt double s never have the right
• 32:04
  hair. I mean, you know, the number of
• 32:06
  times at Pertwee and and Tom, you could tell when it was
• 32:10
  purely because of the hair. That's not a terrible makeup job
• 32:13
  though, is it? That's pretty.
• 32:14
  Good, really good makeup job. I mean, it's a little bit
• 32:18
  wearing on the hands. It looks like green double wrap
• 32:20
  but the face. Is gorgeous.
• 32:24
  It's and it's nasty, isn't it? You know.
• 32:26
  And how many times what you done is across his era.
• 32:31
  The number of times Davison actually stands with a gun
• 32:35
  pointing at the body is it quite frequent.
• 32:38
  You got it in Resurrection as a Dalek because we got it.
• 32:40
  We can't shoot, Davros. You know, the pacifist Dr.
• 32:47
  Indeed. Yeah, but again, it.
• 32:49
  Is a solid, dramatic point, isn't it, that he has to shoot?
• 32:53
  The he's. Willing himself, you know, and
• 32:54
  say it's kind of the Doctor can't bring himself to do it.
• 32:59
  He doesn't look at that horror. Yeah, I think Burns got the
• 33:02
  makings of a really dramatic script.
• 33:05
  Yeah, he just needs to rewrite all the dialogue.
• 33:08
  The effect on the special edition the new is much better
• 33:13
  than just you know, it fades out in my version.
• 33:16
  Yeah, but say there's kind of wibbly, wobbly spready, Top of
• 33:20
  the Pops type. Oh great, they do Not doing this
• 33:25
  at the end of Davidson stories where he looks a bit forlorn at
• 33:28
  what he's had to do. Remember the end of Planet of
• 33:29
  Fire as well? They say he's Davidson goes
• 33:33
  through. Hell.
• 33:34
  In a lot of his stories, at one point he should say, you know,
• 33:37
  yeah, every single time we have one of these adventures, I end
• 33:41
  up killing the person at the end, yeah.
• 33:43
  Oh, we just had the 10 second Gallifrey scene just to remember
• 33:48
  them, you know. Oh yeah, Well, they'll be back
• 33:50
  in the Five Doctors. Yeah, a different bruise of
• 33:53
  mine. Oh, the the look on Davidson's
• 33:58
  face here. It's just gold, isn't it?
• 34:01
  It's the funniest thing in the whole story.
• 34:05
  So it seems he goes. It's interesting that them
• 34:08
  Nissar is very keen to and instantly hugs and their best
• 34:11
  friends and they start sharing a bedroom again.
• 34:15
  Yeah, less about said about that the better.
• 34:19
  And that was the end of the Arc of Infinity.
• 34:22
  Yeah, I mean, it's like the trouble is, it didn't know what
• 34:25
  it wanted to be. It could have been a big scifi
• 34:29
  thing with lots of character in it.
• 34:32
  You could have had Nissa developed.
• 34:34
  You could have had more of that Omega discovering.
• 34:37
  Physicality being real again. Or you could have had the kind
• 34:42
  of Omega being the real minor thing and being the big dramatic
• 34:46
  legal thing on Gallifrey and the and actually making it a proper
• 34:50
  Agatha Christie who done it. More murders.
• 34:53
  And yeah, but yeah, they have to go with the kind of the, the mix
• 34:57
  and match. And as you said, it's just kind
• 35:00
  of this, this kind of disconnect between the two, the fact that
• 35:03
  Gallifrey is only in it for 10 seconds in the last episode.
• 35:07
  Well, not quite tense, but you know what I mean.
• 35:09
  It's, you know, whereas I think, you know you skip forward a week
• 35:12
  to into snake dance. Everything is so focused, isn't
• 35:16
  it? It's a it's a strong character
• 35:18
  tale. It's a strong plot.
• 35:21
  I think the directors on board with the vision of the story
• 35:25
  they've got, they've assembled a brilliant cast, you know, and
• 35:28
  this is, this is what we said about the 80s at the beginning
• 35:31
  of this episode. The pendulum swings in the other
• 35:33
  direction. I'd say I mean, there is.
• 35:38
  I mean, I I'm not going to have any difficulty praising for
• 35:41
  finding my three things, you know?
• 35:43
  But say it's just. It's so difficult to decide what
• 35:47
  to make of it because say it's I think if it had been a mid
• 35:52
  season story, it would have been much better because people would
• 35:58
  have got their kind of Doctor Who's back out of their system
• 36:01
  so they could settle down into kind of a different style of
• 36:04
  story. But yeah, it's just.
• 36:09
  I still love it though. You know, I've.
• 36:10
  I've still really enjoyed rewatching it.
• 36:13
  I don't love it, but I certainly have looked at elements of this
• 36:18
  in a brand new way. So I'm going to thank you for
• 36:20
  that. Well, go on.
• 36:23
  In you go first for your three. I'll follow you.
• 36:27
  It's that scene of Peter Davidson standing in front of
• 36:30
  the organ grinder where you suddenly realize that Omega.
• 36:35
  And be happy. And it's just like I find that a
• 36:38
  heart wrenchingly sad moment, knowing of course that kind of
• 36:42
  inevitably Omega is going to have to die.
• 36:44
  He's literally had those 30 seconds of experiencing actual
• 36:52
  proper life, and it's just like and Davison in that one shot.
• 36:57
  For me, it's the the awakening of Omega discovering what this
• 37:02
  universe is. And then it's all gone.
• 37:06
  If this was a new series episode, yeah, we would have got
• 37:10
  to that point very early. He would have experienced a
• 37:15
  whole life or a, you know, a decent chunk of a life.
• 37:19
  And then the ending where that's torn away from him would have
• 37:21
  been absolutely heartbreaking, wouldn't it?
• 37:25
  Okay. My first thing then is going to
• 37:27
  be the wonderful Sarah Sutton who and I think I said this in
• 37:32
  my doc I have reviews review of this.
• 37:35
  Is that just to give her the spotlight, to give her so much
• 37:39
  dramatic material to put a gun in her hand?
• 37:43
  I I I think she's a vastly underrated companion and this is
• 37:48
  one of two times, Snake Dance being the other, where she
• 37:52
  really gets a lot of focus and she's great.
• 37:55
  And she's not under the shadow of Janet Fielding, yeah.
• 37:57
  Yeah. So for me the second one is the
• 38:01
  very loving nods to continuity in the small details.
• 38:08
  You know, the kind of, you know the the Gallifrey uniforms.
• 38:12
  The dress is draped over there kind of like, you know, the the
• 38:16
  Matrix, Coronet, everything like that to me.
• 38:19
  Although the the walls and everything different, it still
• 38:22
  sells it to me as Gallifrey. It just says.
• 38:26
  We're now in the council chambers rather than the
• 38:28
  banqueting hall, so I think kind of a lot of thought has gone
• 38:32
  into the background touches. My second is gonna be the very
• 38:41
  rare in this period contemporary setting.
• 38:46
  Yeah, realistically depicted, Far more realistically depicted
• 38:50
  than the Gallifrey sequences and.
• 38:53
  The wonderful bit where Tegan is basically told to piss off
• 38:56
  because people go missing in Amsterdam all the time because
• 38:58
  they're taking time. That's great, but we're sort of,
• 39:01
  you know we're in youth hostels, in cafes, in airports, you know
• 39:07
  and it's a sort of thing perhaps having talk Tegan as a companion
• 39:11
  promise, but we didn't really get in the previous season and
• 39:13
  it is nice to have a bit that it does ground it and just that is
• 39:17
  Amsterdam, which is very refreshing.
• 39:19
  Oh yeah, right. Praise be to John Nathan Turner
• 39:21
  for wanting a holiday every season, and my third one is
• 39:26
  something that has seemingly fallen out of favor in the last
• 39:31
  couple of decades. But dear God, the voice of
• 39:35
  Omega. That pure, booming tone,
• 39:41
  Wonderfully pure and crisp and evil.
• 39:45
  And these days we've got to have, you know, yes.
• 39:50
  We. I have no objection and as I've
• 39:53
  said, you know, it's lovely. We've got different accents, we
• 39:54
  got different people, but I want a villain who is big and
• 39:59
  booming. And menacing John Sims came
• 40:03
  close, but he then upped the madness too much, whereas Omega
• 40:08
  is in control and that's what's needed.
• 40:13
  Expect me on Gallifrey's soul. Yeah, basically.
• 40:18
  This booming, pure, velvety voice.
• 40:23
  I actually think it's a better voice than Stephen Fawn because
• 40:26
  Fawn is just so panto and so over the top, and I think he
• 40:30
  gets some moments right when he's allowed to underplay it a
• 40:33
  bit, but sometimes it's a bit extreme.
• 40:35
  Whereas God, what's the feather's name?
• 40:38
  Ian Collier. Ian Collier, Yeah, Which, I
• 40:41
  mean, it is a villainous one. I bet you played a lot of
• 40:43
  villains and and by all accounts, a really lovely,
• 40:47
  charming man. I've only heard that, you know,
• 40:50
  secondhand reports never met him, but everyone who has met
• 40:54
  him, who has told me about the meeting has always spoken really
• 40:56
  highly of him. So, yes, lovely voice.
• 41:00
  And obviously my last choice, a bit of an obvious one, is going
• 41:05
  to be the star of the show, Maxill himself, Colin Baker,
• 41:10
  who, you know, somehow. Manages to drag some interest
• 41:14
  out of those interminable scenes on Gallifrey.
• 41:18
  As Colin Baker says himself, he's there in the rehearsals and
• 41:21
  every scene he's looking at his fingernails, eyes to the
• 41:23
  ceiling, doing business left right, swishing his Cape.
• 41:27
  I mean, he's so fun. Do you know that in my heart, I
• 41:32
  actually wanted Jackie Pierce to come back in, Kind of like the
• 41:36
  Five Doctors as the the Mother of Maxill.
• 41:41
  Be the real Villasse. Come on, surely maximum
• 41:45
  Maxilmum's power? And you just know, as a man
• 41:52
  who's that much of A bully boy had a domineering mother.
• 41:54
  I always say that about every character, like Morgus from Kays
• 41:58
  Van Drazani. You know, they've all got
• 42:00
  monstrous mothers. And I always imagined of being
• 42:03
  played by fabulous, you know, British character actresses.
• 42:07
  We've lost so many character actors, we haven't cultivated a
• 42:16
  production environment which gives people character roles.
• 42:20
  You would never have a Max all these days, you know, everything
• 42:24
  sort of pitched so naturalistically, even if it's a
• 42:28
  ridiculous part. Yeah.
• 42:31
  There are exceptions. I do think there are exceptions.
• 42:34
  In the new series, that fellow in the wheelchair in Voyage of
• 42:36
  the Dan was somewhere in the stratosphere.
• 42:39
  That was a Christmas special. That doesn't count.
• 42:41
  Kill him Max as well. Yeah, it was summing in the
• 42:48
  name, you know and of course the the next one of these I'm going
• 42:53
  to be doing is going to be missing all of that is going to
• 42:55
  be the Ark. The Ark?
• 42:58
  Yes, we're taking a step into the far future.
• 43:01
  And then we're going to take a step in even further into the
• 43:04
  future. Yeah.
• 43:05
  I say kind of the two we've agreed is ARC and the Wedding of
• 43:08
  River Song and yeah, the Arc is missing characters.
• 43:13
  But we will, we will save that for the 51st segment of time.
• 43:19
  I'm. Just.
• 43:21
  Going to say one thing about the Arc.
• 43:22
  Yeah, is I think it is better directed and more polished than
• 43:28
  Arc of Infancy. Yes, it is an interesting
• 43:35
  contrast. Arc and Arc of Infinity and
• 43:37
  actually Arc in Space as well. You've got 3 arcs, 3 very
• 43:42
  different directorial styles, three stories with some very
• 43:47
  fundamental flaws in them. It's just the fact.
• 43:50
  That the Ark is so forward thinking and creative and yet
• 43:53
  presented as a 1950s science fiction show, I feel save my
• 43:59
  comments for that one, because there's more science to come.
• 44:05
  Well, that leaves me to say thank you very much for your
• 44:08
  time. Absolute blast.
• 44:10
  I've loved it. You.
• 44:12
  Know why going into the 80s is so much fun?
• 44:15
  It's always so much fun to talk. About is it because it's the era
• 44:18
  of shoulder pads and over the top excess and yuppies and?
• 44:22
  Maxwell and Max got it there.