Latest / The Thriving School Podcast with Jenni Awesome / Behavior Is Communication: Understanding Student Behavior & SEND Support with Lee Park
Transcript
- Jenni Awesome: And welcome back to the Jennifer Awesome podcast, where we explore the ideas, people, and experiences helping students graduate with competence, confidence, and purpose, not just a diploma. Today's guest brings more than two decades of experience working with students who need support the most. Throughout his career in the United Kingdom, he's dedicated himself to supporting students with special education needs and disabilities. While developing positive approaches to behavior that focus on understanding students rather than simply reacting to their actions. Now, Lee has multiple TikTok channels sharing practical strategies for promoting positive behavior. And in just two weeks, his message resonated with thousands of educators and parents growing to more than 7,000 followers. I am excited to welcome Lee Park. to the Jennifer Awesome podcast. Welcome to the podcast, Lee. Lee: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, thanks for coming on. So tell us a bit about yourself. Lee: Yeah, I'm 41. I actually started working with young people when I was 14. I was volunteering in my youth club. And then that led on to me working in after school clubs from about the age of 16, 17. And during that time there, my deputy manager said to me, I work in the special needs school. We're looking for males. Do you fancy it? I was like, no, not really. I don't want to work in education. It's not for me. I'm quite happy doing it. the youth clubs and the after school clubs because I hated school myself as a student. I'm dyspraxic but I didn't get diagnosed till I was 15. So I went through my whole school journey with severe dyspraxia and I'm diagnosed so I got accused of being the lazy student or the student who couldn't be bothered to write or the student who couldn't be bothered to spell. And it was right just before our exams is when I got the diagnosis. So I hated the thought of being in the education system. I enjoyed Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: working in my after school clubs and my youth clubs and it got to a point where I just needed more money so I just went to it. There's still jobs going at that school. So I went there. I was the youngest TA there at the age of 18 and I was the only male TA there for the first three years and I stayed there for 10 years. It was a special educational lead school and I just loved it. Yes, instead my journey has been into schools. After that I went off to a primary school and I was a TA in a primary school for two years. Then I went into an alternative learning provision for eight years. I started off as a TA, I then become a tutor. I then became a media coordinator, then I became their behaviour lead. So I ended up being like a third in charge of the school, coming up with all the behaviour strategies, the policies, training staff, as well as working with students. I left there after about eight years. My wife had a stroke six years ago at the age of 33, and that just changed our world upside down personally. So I could only commit to four days a week. They wanted their behaviour lead there for five days. So they said, can you come back to five Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: days? I said, unfortunately I can't. So they said, well, we're going to have to demote you. me being a bit stubborn and a bit knowing my worth in a little way, I thought, no, I've just gave you eight years. I've built your behaviour up over the last five years. I said, all right, I'll see you later. I then went and worked as a refocus room manager in my school that I went to as a student. And the refocus room is for students that were removed from the classroom for the day. So they came to me Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: and I decided to create a programme to try to help them get back into the classroom. We weren't just sitting in there, silent, just doing the work. We'll get more into that in a little while. I did that for about two years. Then I went back into alternative learning provision where I was there for two years. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: Then unfortunately I got diagnosed with diabetes in November and my health took a little bit of turn for the worse. So had to leave in February because I weren't able to come back to the school. I was unemployed for Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: five months but I've actually got my old job back and I'm returning back there in September, September 1st. Jenni Awesome: Nice. Nice. You have done a lot for education. Lee: Yeah, I don't feel like I have but I must have so... Jenni Awesome: So th you you touched on something first of we do have a severe lack of men in education. Lee: Yeah, I think to be honest, a lot of that stigma, because I remember, especially being an 18 year old lad, when I said to people, yeah, I'm a TA in a special needs school, my mates would joke Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: and I don't know what I can say about it, but they'd be like, what you a nonce type thing? And that's the banter. If you hear a bloke working with children, especially that's Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: the sort of bantery and some of the attitude that comes towards it, I believe. I think obviously over the last 20 years, there's been a shift. in culture and Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: what people see but especially back then in like 2000s that was the first thing because young men when they worked on building sites and construction and stuff like that they didn't go and or they were a teacher or they were management in a school they weren't a teaching assistant a teaching assistant was seen as the mum's job because they can go drop Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: their kid off at school go and work in a school pick their kid back up and have the school holidays off so it wasn't really seen Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: but it's just something I felt like I I was good at and I enjoyed doing so. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, and I I another thing you brought up is that I know a lot of well, just a lot of people in general don't do well in school the way that the school system is is currently ran. And so feeling like you can't really go in because it wasn't successful for you, like it that keeps a lot of people from returning to working in education when really it should motivate people, like it appears to have motivated you. It sounds like you've gone in Recognize that hey, these things didn't work for me. It it seems like it's not working for these kids here. How how do I change that? Lee: Yeah, I definitely have... I go in with the attitude I don't want a young person to go through what I went through because I had a very negative Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: experience and it's really weird because I've been thinking about this a lot it's a bit like why do I do this job? Am I looking for acceptance by giving my knowledge on to someone else? And it's like a double-edged sword because in a way I'm helping the young people achieve and let them be the best versions of themselves they can be but then I'm getting something back off it because I'm getting that gratitude. and I'm getting that reward of seeing that happen because I didn't experience that myself as a student. So it's a double-edged sword but then I'm giving to them but they're giving back to me at the same point. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. So tell us a bit more about your journey. So you you went in as the well, first you were doing some after school programs working with the kids in that way. And then you you went ahead, you took the risk, you became the TA. At what point did you decide like, Hey, I'm I'm sticking with this? Like this is what I meant to do. Lee: It's a bit weird, so at first, especially being in the special education needs, I didn't know what to expect. So the school I worked in had four departments. So you had the PMLD students, which are the young people who are in the wheelchairs. They haven't got long life expectancy. A Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: lot of them can't speak the non-verbal. The other section was EBD, which is emotional behaviour disorder. So the ones that have come from broken homes and stuff like that the other section was the autistic section. I mainly worked in... At first I was in a class with a lot of autistic young people and the school I worked in is about seven or eight students to a class. And I walked in there and it was with the older students as well. Like I said, I've just turned 18 and I think one of the students we had in there was a year older than myself. And I literally walked in and it was a room of a lot of non-verbal young people and like one... person was just standing in the corner and he'd bounce up and down. Another person would just lay on the floor and spin some wheels. Another young Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: person we worked with, he was severely autistic and like, even if you cross your legs he'd come over and attack you. And stuff like that. And I'm standing there as an 18 year old thinking Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: what the hell have I walked into? Like, what's going on here? And it was just over time and it was really funny because at some point... I'd go to leave the classroom and another member staff would point a hand at me thinking I was the student because I was so young as well at the time. And I think it's the staff team that got me through that first six months to a year because they sort of walked me through it and helped me. And like I said, it was senior world. So one young person we worked with, was very violent. Other than on a Friday when we took him to the park and went on a swing. And that 10 minutes he was on a swing, his face would change and his body would change and stuff. And I hate the term normal, but he looked like what we'd class as a normal kid. that Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: seeing him just have that moment where he's sort of relaxed and stress free made the whole week worthwhile. Because this boy, if he didn't like where you were standing, he'd come over and scratch your face and stuff like that. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: And it made all that worthwhile just seeing that 10 minutes of him being a young person. Just, and that I think just getting enjoyment of little wins like that just made me want to stick out at it. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, you're you're bringing up a point. So I ran I called it Geek Club, Gamers Enjoying Each Other's Company. And I I ran it once a week on Fridays at the middle school I was at. And being able to to play games with those kids, it was it was mostly middle school boys, a handful of girls, but playing card games, allowing them to play video games, seeing them in that element where they really are passionate, where they're really successful, and that that joy just comes out of them, as opposed to seeing them in the classroom where they're struggling, maybe they're, you know, having a hard time reading, or they're very reserved. Like I had kids that they could keep track of your score in this game like, like that. And I have to like write it down on paper to figure out what our scores were. But to see the kids in those moments, and I don't know if enough teachers, you know, have the capacity at the end of the day, so like middle school teachers, go to the game, spend that extra time with the kids, do those extra activities because the kids that you see out there doing their passion, enjoying what they're doing, are very different from the kids that we see sitting in our classroom struggling. Lee: No, 100%. And one thing I did struggle with with that school though was, as I said with the PMLD section, we would go on Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: summer break and you'll get back and two and three young people had died. And that was like a yearly Jenni Awesome: no. Lee: occurrence and that was something hard to deal with. Like I said, I'm 18 years old myself. So I'm sort of going through Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: my later teenage stage and I'm dealing with death of young people and stuff that I've seen. throughout that school year and stuff, so that was quite hard to navigate around. But like I said, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: just the enjoyment of overall, it was such a great environment. And don't get me wrong, it was tough. I've been in some really violent situations. I've had a point where young person had five knives in my face because he wanted to go and kill the teacher. And I'm the one who's had to stand at the door going, really sorry, you can't do that type thing. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: But there's a reason behind why that's happening. And I like getting to that reason and then trying to support that young person. And then like I keep saying, seeing the result. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. So it it sounds like you've spent much of your career working with behavior. What do you think people misunderstand the most about student behavior or just human behavior in general? Lee: Yeah, so I believe a lot of it is we put a label on the person and it's not, you've got to deal with the behaviour, not the person. So you could have a young person that lies all the time. So when they come to you with something, you just brush them off of their lying. So it's them. So I'm not going to bother. That one time they could be telling you the truth and then you could miss something. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: And I believe a lot of the time as well, you can't teach until behaviour is right. So you've got to the behaviour right first because Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: I've not been funny, especially nowadays, information comes like that. You can type it into Google, you can say who were the world leaders in World War II and you've got the information. So it's not about what Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: we're teaching, it's about how we're teaching it. I always sort of see lessons as, in a way, you're a bit like a salesman. You've got to sell that information to that young person for them to be able to retain it. And especially like Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: with behaviour, I'm a big fan on... the behaviour cycle so I don't know if you know much about the behaviour cycle and this counts for adults as well we all go through behaviour cycles hourly and the cycle starts off at the bottom with it's an experience and that could both be real or imaginary the way I explain it to young people is if you get punched in the face that's hurt so that pain that's a real pain or if you suffer from like social anxiety a party is the worst thing in the world that you could go to where someone is confident it's not. That then leads onto the way we feel and the way we feel then leads onto Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: the actions and then our actions lead on to the way someone reacts. So if you want a positive outcome you need to have a positive Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: cycle. If you have a negative cycle then you'll get a negative outcome and it's about recognising where you are. So like I know if I don't sleep well I'm less patient. woke up and I've had a really bad night's sleep and I've got to go to work. I know I'm going to be bit more short-tempered with young people. So I've got to try extra hard to make sure that my, me feeling of being tired because my experience of not having a good night's sleep doesn't cause me to act out as impatient because then that's going to cause a negative reaction from the young person. So Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: that's me on one of my cycles and I believe we go, and I believe that's the blueprint for all behaviour, adults, young people. whoever is that behaviour cycle and it's about showing Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: and teaching the young people how to make their cycle positive. Your experience is your experience and you may not have a good experience but us as educators or people working with young people we can make their experience better which then should lessen the negativity of the cycle. Jenni Awesome: So give us give us some strategies on on how do I take that that cycle and and break away from maybe the the negative mindset, the negative self talk that I'm having. How do I how do I flip it over to the positive? Lee: Again, yeah, it's like, like, linking back to myself, like, with my distraction, my artwork was really bad. So my teacher at Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: school when I was a student used to hold up my artwork and tell the class this is how not to do the work. That has made me have a real negative experience when it comes around to art. Now, when I was working at one of my schools, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: where I got to tutor level, they needed someone to teach citizenship, history and art because we were a small building. did like triple duties so they gave me art to do and I sat there and thought to myself right I've got a real negative experience with art how am I gonna teach this to the young people and I don't know if you've heard of an artist called Banksy in America have you heard of Banksy? yeah so Jenni Awesome: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Lee: I thought right we'll do Banksy because that's common knowledge to the young people but I can't really draw what activity can I do that's gonna be fun for the young people and I don't really have to do drawing So looked at our school logo and it was a tree. I thought, right, I'm going to get them to draw a tree. Banksy does his work in middle of the night and he's hiding from the police. So I got us in the hall and I put up white bits of paper around the hall and I said to the young people, right, you're going to pretend you're Banksy. You've got to go and draw a tree over, like the school logo, over one of these piece of paper. Every time I blow my whistle, that's the police coming, so you've got to go off and hide. When I blow again that means you can come back out. You've got 45 minutes to get this tree done. And we did a 45 minute session where I kept blowing the whistle, they kept going off and hiding, then they would come back out. I didn't have to pick up a pencil once. I showed them bit of Banksy's work at the start of lesson as my introduction and then they went off. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: And that's in a way how I used to get through my lessons because I was so scared of actually trying to draw because I was so low confident myself. But I had to give these young people Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: a bit of information. So it's just working right round. Jenni Awesome: Love that. That actually sounds like a really fun lesson too. Lee: Thanks, think to enjoy it. Jenni Awesome: I'd love to do that with teachers, be like, All right, every time I blow the whistle, you gotta go hide. Like that sounds like fun. Lee: And that's my point, that's getting... I don't know a lot when you were younger at school, but... I see it a lot in the classroom now, and being a T80 is hard sometimes because you look at some lessons and the kids are misbehaving and you know why the kids are misbehaving because it's the way it's being talked to them. I don't see the point of Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: getting young people to just copy things off a board or research something on a computer or go and put a YouTube video on for 20 minutes then answer six questions. What is the point? of that. It's about like I said earlier on, like I said I see it in bit of a way like a sales pitch. You've got to sell them that idea. So I worked with a primary school student once and we had things when they're in year six which means they're nine or ten years old where have to do SATs tests which gives them their score for secondary Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: school and I got given this young person to work with and I got told he really hates tests, he hates exams so we need you to work with him on a one-to-one basis weekly to try and get him ready for SATs. And I thought then, what can I do to make him enjoy this? Obviously, him seeing an exam paper scares him. So I just cut up the practice exam papers, chucked them in the bowl and I called it, right, we're going to have a pick and mix session. And he looked at me like I said, you're going to pick out a question, I'm going to pick out a question. We've got three minutes to answer the question. Then we'll share our answers. So we both did that together. And I would purposely get the answers wrong because I would read out my question. Then I'd start giving the answer and he'd be like, no sir, that's not right. I'd like, what do mean that's not right? And he'd be like, no, it's blah, blah, blah. I was like, what do you mean? Look, let me show you. And then in a way he felt like he was teaching me, but then he's getting Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: that information in his head. And then I think after two or three weeks, I upped it to, I've only cut two questions out instead of the one. Then after about four weeks, I've added two or three. So we're slowly increasing. the amount of questions on the page to the point that could have Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: a whole exam paper page in front of him without freaking out. But that all started off and Jenni Awesome: It's amazing. Lee: I think you've got to be on the level, I find a lot in UK schools, especially in secondary schools, it's an us and them mentality and it's not. It's got to Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: be a we mentality and going back to the refocus room, so the student would come over, I had this little heart thing and the student would get sent over and they were annoyed to start with and I sat there and thought And the rules of the refocused room that the school put in place is if they come to me, they had to stay with me for six hours of the whole day, then they'd have an hour of detention after Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: school with me. Then if that went well, they could go back into class the next day. So in a way, they were locked away in this hut. We weren't locked as in like literally locked in, but we'd have lunch at a different time. If they needed to go to the toilet, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: I had to escort them to the toilet and stuff. So I sat there and thought, right, we've got to get through this day here. I need them on my side, right. I'm going to make this environment, because think environment as well is another important key. So I'm going to make this environment uncomfortable. So I had white walls and I had no clock. Because that's another thing. If you take time away from someone, that makes things feel a lot longer. So I set it for what? Jenni Awesome: yeah. Lee: If I do that, then I don't need to be like strict or firm or anything like that. So they would come in and then I set up, they had half an hour where they would have to sit at the side because they made these little booths at the side. And then I put a table in the middle. I gave them a workbook click, it was like why am I here? So they had to write down what they did was the reason they were sent there. Even though I knew from the teacher, I wanted to get their version. Then we'd have a break and then we'd come to the middle and I'd do work on growth mindset or understanding mental health or joint enterprise. I'd have hour sessions Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: or discussions like this set out throughout the day. And then at the end of the day, they would have to then do another booklet of how could I handle the situation better based on what we spoke about throughout the day. So when they were coming, they'd always be annoyed at that and I went, look, I understand that you're frustrated with the situation, but whatever's happened, has happened. I can't change that. We've now just got to get ourselves through this day. So tell me what's happened and straight away it's, it's that teacher's fault or it's this person's fault. And I'm like, okay, but what did you do? Well I only pushed him or only swore at her and it's like but it's because they said this first and I know stop all that because that person's not here you're here what did you do? Well I said this word Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: so you can see that you did something wrong you may have not started it but you did do something wrong didn't you and they'd be like yeah and I mean so do you deserve to be here today and they're like well okay yeah so again it's holding people to account as well and you don't have to do that nicely Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: I didn't sit there and say they were wrong I just said you made a bad choice but I always made sure that I used the word we as well. How can we get through? What can we do? Not a what are you going to do or Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: what are you going to do about it because then you're putting the emphasis back on them and it makes that young person then feel hopeless and they're alone or they're Jenni Awesome: You're right. Lee: in trouble. It's the we mentality and you can sit there and you can point out someone's done something wrong but it's about how you're going to improve and again We all make choices that sometimes go wrong. If we don't learn from that mistake, then that becomes a regular choice Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: and that becomes a behaviour that we are choosing to do. But if we make a mistake and then learn from it and don't do that again next time or do it more positively, then that's not a choice that we're consciously making. That makes sense. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, so i it's so what are some effective strategies for supporting students just across the board? Like what what are some of your favorite strategies to use? Lee: I think it's, again, it's the wee stuff, as in, we're in this together. The plain dumb sometimes, Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: I think as well, helps, because then Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: the young person feels like they're helping you out. So I think doing that Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: sometimes, and it's being on the young person level, and what's helped? I've always worked in schools from the area that I live in, and that I grew up in. I haven't really moved that far from where I grew up. So I sort of understand what these young people are going through and what... Struggles they're finding out in their personal lives So it's sort of relating to that so when I did the drug awareness stuff with some young people I've had a brother who died of herring overdose About 10 years ago, Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: so I was able to use my experience with that to bring that in and I think they like a bit of Realness as well. So again with the refocus room because it was a school that I attended as a young person I could bring that up and straight away that build up that connection because I was them. That's what I can say to them. I was sitting in your shoes 20 years ago and stuff Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: like that and that really helped and it was really weird because my line manager was the person who was my head of year when I was a student and it took me eight months to stop calling him sir. Even at the age of 38 when I was working here I still felt like I had to call him sir. I was like sir can I do this? And he was like, this is your room, you're the focus room manager, you can do what you want. But that made the students laugh as well. think once they realised I was them and it's also recognising, yeah, the school system is broken. It's being open and honest with the young people. You can sit there and say, you don't have to agree with rules to follow them. So another thing I used to say to them is like, who goes to the cinema? So I'd the people put their hand up and then I'd be like, who watches TV or media at home? So they'd put their hands up. I'm like, who speaks with their family at home while you're watching TV? and they put their hand up. Who talks to the chaps while they're in the cinema? No one put their hand up. And I was like, why not? If you're doing it at home, why aren't you not doing it the cinema? because we paid for the ticket and we get kicked out. And I said, exactly. You may not agree with the rules of the place you're in, but this is the place you're in, so you've just got to stick to them. So it's also, again, just letting people understand, yeah, things may not be fair or seem fair, but unfortunately, I Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: used to say to them, unfortunately, you've chose to come to this school in the slow rates like my parents chose for me to come here. So then I'd be like, well, Unfortunately your parents have to make the choice to put you here. So the moment you walk through that gate, you're non-verbally agreeing Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: to stick to whatever these school rules are. Whether you agree with them or not, it doesn't matter. That's how you just got to do it. So again, it's been very open and having that open and it's all about relationships. And I don't know about the States, but obviously in the UK, it's all performance driven. And that's craziness because everyone's on a different level. I left school with two GCSEs. We've got GCSEs over here. and the marks were A to D, A was the highest and D was the lowest and the average they want you to get is A to C I left school with two A to C's, the rest were D's because I just started working Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: in the after school club so I'm sitting there thinking I've got a job I'm earning $500 a month I'm living at home rent free, I don't need school so I didn't bother revising for my exams and stuff like that but I then just had to better myself as I got older so that's Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Before we continue today's episode, I want to take a moment to talk about a mission that has become incredibly important to me. Every child deserves to grow up feeling safe, protected, valued, and free. Unfortunately, children around the world are being exploited and trafficked every day. And I don't believe we can simply hear about it, feel terrible, and move on. We have a collective responsibility to do something, to act. That's why I'm raising funds to support the fight against child trafficking and child exploitation and the organizations working to identify vulnerable children, rescue victims, and help survivors rebuild their lives. And you can do something. You Can be a valuable part of this mission and this work as well. You don't have to have thousands of dollars and you don't have to be an expert. You simply have the opportunity to decide that protecting children matters. Donate, share the mission, start a conversation, pay attention, use your voice. Because when enough ordinary people Decide that protecting children is our responsibility, extraordinary change becomes possible. If you'd like to stand with me, visit community.org backslash fundraiser seven three seven one zero two six. Together we can turn awareness into action, hope into impact. And create a world where children are protected. Protecting children is everyone's responsibility and it starts with us. Before we continue today's episode, I want to take a moment to talk about a mission that has become incredibly important to me. Every child deserves to grow up feeling safe, protected, valued, and free. Unfortunately, children around the world are being exploited and trafficked every day. And I don't believe we can simply hear about it, feel terrible, and move on. We have a collective responsibility to do something, to act. That's why I'm raising funds to support the fight against child trafficking and child exploitation and the organizations working to identify vulnerable children, rescue victims, and help survivors rebuild their lives. And you can do something. You Can be a valuable part of this mission and this work as well. You don't have to have thousands of dollars and you don't have to be an expert. You simply have the opportunity to decide that protecting children matters. Donate, share the mission, start a conversation, pay attention, use your voice. Because when enough ordinary people Decide that protecting children is our responsibility, extraordinary change becomes possible. If you'd like to stand with me, visit community.org backslash fundraiser seven three seven one zero two six. Together we can turn awareness into action, hope into impact. And create a world where children are protected. Protecting children is everyone's responsibility and it starts with us. Lee: That's what I did and again it's about being back down on that level. The expectation on young people as it is at the moment is very high because the teachers have got so much information they've got to give them to get them ready for exams. We as teachers Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: put the pressure onto the young people. It's not the young people's fault. They've got to just come to school so why should we put that pressure on them? So it's about trying to lighten that pressure a bit as well to get that. Relationship, Bill. I think that's the key thing is relationships. Behaviour and relationships are the two key things I think. Jenni Awesome: So how do schools create the environments where students feel safe, understood, and successful? And you've talked a little bit about that, but what are some of your your best tips? Lee: Again, so it's a bit more easier in alternative learning because it's such a small environment. So when I worked at the mainstream environment, that was 2000 students. That's very hard Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: because of you've got to keep some order because there's so many people. And the way the UK education system set up, we're set up to teach factory workers because it's back in the Victorian times. That's why everyone lines up and sits in rows and stuff. And I looked around that and I think that's why I only lasted two years in that environment because I didn't enjoy it at all because like even at lunchtime when I'd walk about if I had no one in my room the playground looked like a prison. You have a group of students over in one corner playing basketball another group of students playing football another group talking to each other. You've then got SLT or teachers walking around in bright yellow jackets with walkie talkies. It just looked like a prison yard Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: and I found that really hard and I think maybe in a way Having that order of people walking around in lines and the corridors being one direction and the other, is that a safe way to keep 2,000 people? Probably, but it doesn't make that person feel heard or thin. But it's safety because of the number where alternative learning is about 30 to 40 students. So you've got that time like Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Yeah. Lee: when I was behaviour lead, I used to make sure I saw the school I worked, I'll say it was a school, the building itself wasn't really because it was above shops, so there's no outdoor area. and we had one level above some shops with rooms and a little hall and stuff. So they were coming downstairs from their taxis, because they'd get taxied in. And you walk up the stairs and then you're in the school environment. But I used to make sure I was at the bottom of the stairs. And every time someone would walk in, they used to sign in theirself on the screen. I'd be like, good morning. How are you? How was your next person? good morning. So even at first, having that friendly face straight away puts someone in a better mood. Then we'd have... and we still do it at the place of working out now, you have your first 10 minutes of your day a bit like reflection time, so we use a thing called zones of regulation, I don't know if you've heard of that Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: so it's putting your mood into a colour so you've got blue, yellow, green, red green is where you want everybody because that means you're ready to work, you're in a good mood blue is sort of when you're a bit down and you're a bit tired and you're bit slow and sluggish Yellow is when you're a bit excitable and bouncing all over the place and red is obviously when you're angry. We check in with our Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: students once they've come into the club before we start the lesson within the first 10 minutes. I'm morning, what colour are you today? Straight away, I'm blue. why are blue? I didn't sleep well last night. I'm red. why are you red? because mum shouted at me before I left today. So automatically we didn't know as staff members how to speak to that young person because if you're in like the red zone... Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: You don't want someone asking you 50,000 questions. You just want to be left alone sometimes. buy just that. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: And then you could say, why are you red? I don't want to talk about it. You don't need to dive deep into that, but at least you know by them saying that color or indicating that color, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: at least you know what mood they're into then start off. Then about 15, 20 minutes into lesson, you might ask them again, what color are you now? Cause you're hoping to get that person to green. Cause you want people to stay in green most of the day. We're all going to fluctuate. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: But we've got the culture now as well that they ask us as well. So again, it's that open conversation and it's bringing them back down on the level. So Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: it's sharing that responsibility. And again, feeling safe, it's listening as well. Active listening, I found this a lot when I was training staff members. Listening is needed so much, but isn't used a lot. Because just by sitting there nodding at someone or something, you're not listening. It's letting that young person speak and a good way of showing that you're listening is repeating back to them. So it'd be, I had really bad night last night, my mum shouted at me. Obviously you said your mum shouted at you, why what happened? Straight away you validate that you've heard what they said and that makes someone feel heard and that makes someone feel a bit safe because someone's willing to listen to them. Especially in alternative learning. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: Alternative learning is where I work a lot for young people who been kicked out of mainstream school. and things ain't going well at home. So they feel let down by the education system as it is. So they've already got a negative attitude before they walk through the door. We can't force them to come in and our attendance is really high. think our attendance is like 98%. So that shows we're doing something right Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: because that young person's choosing to come to school that day where they couldn't cope with going to school Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: in a mainstream setting. So obviously those little things must be helping because they're turning up. Alright, they might not complete all the lessons, but we still might have problems with that, but at least they're turning up and that's a lot better than what they were doing when they were at mainstream. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. And and like you're saying, it is about those relationships. It's about knowing that the people that are there to support you care about you. Because once you know that they care, you're willing to take those risks to learn. Lee: And again, it's holding your hands up and saying it. I've sat in a lesson before with a student and I'll be like, why aren't you doing that? I don't care. And I'm like, yeah, but I do. And they're like, what? I'm like, of course I care. I want you to do well. Why do want me to do well? It's split up with that bit of negativity at first. But then once they realize you actually, and don't get me wrong, like some of my students, it felt like they hated me until I left and then they didn't want me to go because I can be, I'm quite focused. I've got the attitude as a TA. The teacher's there to teach, I'm there to help support with the behaviour. So if stuff's Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: not, I will point it out. I'm not afraid not to, even if the teacher won't. And so, and I'm very firm but fair, you've got to do what you need to do. And because of my experience, I know when a young person's trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and be like, can I go to the toilet Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: 15 times? It's not that they need to go to the toilet, it's just they don't want to sit there and do the work. So then you put in that Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: rule, you're only going for three times. I'm a human being, if I need to go to the toilet and I'm like, trust me, if you've drunk some water, it doesn't take three minutes to pass through your system. So I know Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: why you're wanting to go to the toilet. And it's the same, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: we could be young people an option of having timeouts, but some of them abuse that power. So the groups I work with, I will say to them, you've got three timeouts in this lesson. They're like, but what if I need more than Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: that? And I'm like, it's a 50 minute lesson. You get three, five minutes, that's 15 minutes. You don't need... much longer. they will try and, of course it's a young person, they will try and abuse the system the best they can. We did it when we were younger. It's human nature. Jenni Awesome: yeah, I think they're just getting smarter about ways to do it. They they have more Lee: Yeah, 100%. Jenni Awesome: freedom. So you shared that you've been sharing some of your expertise on social media. Like what led you to do that? And, you know, what are you sharing? What are you putting out there? Lee: Yeah so, funny story behind that, so obviously when I left the school where I'm going back to in February I thought well I'm going to set up a little business where I go into schools and support staff with managed behaviour positively so I got signed up to this government group that could give you a grant to get set up and stuff and then they said right you need to register as a sole trader and because I've been unemployed I was then on welfare When I looked into it, Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: the welfare system said if you're a sole trader, even if you're not earning, they would take 35 hours what they think you would earn at minimum wage off you. I sat there and thought, right, this is going to take me six to eight months. I was this close to getting funding as well to set up. I can't not have any income coming in and then lose my welfare benefits at the same time. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: So that stopped me in my tracks doing it. I'm so gutted because I was really looking forward to wrote a business plan. Sorry, I'd wrote a business plan. I had gone through the funding with this business manager that I was given through this government scheme thing. And I just had to email him and said, look, I'm sorry, at the moment in time I can't. So I sat there for a couple of days reading on it. thought, actually, why don't I just put on points from the PowerPoint presentation I was going to deliver, just make TikToks. So that's what I do, just 30 seconds. So I'm literally going through the behavior cycle more in depth. I've put out about 40 videos explaining the behaviour cycle and going into more detail. The last couple of weeks I have been a little bit, I was aiming to put a video out a day but because I'm getting ready to go back into work and I've got a lot of stuff going on at home I haven't really posted much Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: over the last couple of weeks I need to get back into that but what I did, I've just got bits of my PowerPoint presentation. pointed through Dola and this gave me 150 30 second scripts based off what I originally Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: was going to say so I've got all that ready to go and then I'm planning for the future either running an online course where I sell a ticket at a fire or a ticket for parents or other educators and actually do my presentation or I might just go off work back at this place for the next couple of years and then go off and do the business because it's ready to go I've got the PowerPointing the activities, hopefully with the following on social media that can help and the new overall plan was to then sort of franchise that out to people across the country but I wanted it to be TA's because I believe we've all sat in training sessions with someone who's come from an office who's never sat through in a classroom and just reads off a PowerPoint. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: I believe we learn best from people who's been in the job so I would want to give that Then resorted over to TAs who then could then do their own training sessions and then I would take like £50 or for whatever they charge. That was the bigger plan. But then that's why it went on to social Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: media. Jenni Awesome: So what are the like you're you're getting this big following by talking about the the behavior model and and the positive mindset and and just the amazing things that you're doing. Like what are you noticing? What's the gap out there? What's missing in our education systems? Lee: I just feel like it's broken, I think it's broken since we were at school. Like I said, in the UK it's based off of Victorian times. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: AI is a bad tool because people will cheat and stuff but used correctly I think it can be a positive tool. I know there's a lot of training in the UK going out to teachers and stuff. This is the funny thing as well, I'm not actually a qualified teacher. I got offered to do my qualification when I was 19, paid for by the school I was working at and I said no thank you, I don't want to work in education. 20 years still on. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: So my highest qualification, I've done a level 3 in specialised teaching support, I've done a level 4 in cancer and children and adolescents and then I've done a level 5 in education and training. So I'm just below a teacher but I've not actually got my teaching qualification. But I feel like sometimes, nicely some teachers I've seen, can deliver a better lesson. I don't know if teachers have been demoralised from the job. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: Because I remember being a young person, like I said when I went back into the school I went to as a student, I was still calling my teacher sir at the age of 38 because back then being a teacher was a respected job. I feel like the young people don't respect teachers nowadays. It's not seen. I've had young people say to me, you're just a teacher, or you just work in a school. Where I remember being younger people would inspire to do that job. It's not seen as a... So I think that demoralises people. And not being asked as well. think sometimes people are chucked into work too quickly as in they do their university degree but it's all done on paper and it's like here you go, here's 30 students. I think because schools haven't got time Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: to train people up as in... I know... Some teachers training, they do like a day in a primary school every week, but I still think a teacher needs to shadow someone with a bit more experience over like six months or something, just to get the feel of Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: how everything runs because a lot of times they're just chucked in and then they've got deadlines and they've got press night. Even as a TA in the place I work with our students leave at 2.30, we finish at 4.30, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: we sit down, we have a meeting at 2.30 to go through how the day went, then we've got to go off, then we've got to write. individual paragraphs about how each student's been in each lesson throughout the day because that's got to off to the local authorities because they're paying for their funding. We've then got to call parents to tell them how their day's been. So even if you've got seven or eight students, that's seven or eight phone calls you've got to make. That's seven or eight. And that's just as a TA. I'm not them sitting there as a teacher Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: having to plan. And some teachers I work with, one of my mates who I work with, he teaches history in RE. So he's got a plan for 40 students, and I know it's only 40 students, but he's got a plan for 40 students all there are in curriculum. He's then got a plan for all the history curriculum. He's then got to do his report writing. He's got feedback to us as TAs if there's anything he wants us to say. And you've got a two hour space to do that. And then you wake up the next day Jenni Awesome: Uh-huh. Lee: and do it all over again. Jenni Awesome: Do it all over again. Lee: And think that is a lot, some, and where some people get into the profession at a young age, or they've just been through university, they don't realise that pressure. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: straight away so they're getting to the job and I know, I don't know how is in the States but in the UK we are getting a shortage of teachers because people don't want to get into that job. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Yeah. Same here. Lee: And it's a shame because I feel like teachers and it proved it during Covid because we stayed open as I will tell you. For me, all Covid was in a way was I couldn't get my hair cut, I couldn't go out and eat. But other than that, I was going to work every day still and it proves it. The shopkeepers, the teachers and like the travel people kept the country going. It weren't these billionaires sitting in office blocks or stuff like that because then they got to sit home and they got to shut their business down. But it was the teachers that were having to get up every day, was the shopkeepers that were getting up every day, it was the bus drivers that are the backbone of the country, I believe, and I think COVID proved that, but it's not recognised like that anymore. It's looked down at, and I don't think pay equals to it either. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I I also I also recognize that during COVID, like in in America, a lot of the schools went virtual. So I mean, teachers were still having to go into school, but the kids were at home. So it it brought in this huge disconnect of do we need education? Like if they can just learn from a computer. And there's been a huge push since then of Well, the kids can just learn from a computer. And we're seeing everything decline because we need that connection. We need that more than just what's in a computer. We need that human connection and the ability to have that positive conversation, have that role model and and make those changes. Lee: You know, I'm 100 % Greek, so like I said, when I was working in alternative learning, the students were allowed to come in, so we didn't really do much virtual teaching. But my son, he's 18 Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: now, but he was in school, and I know for a fact that he told me he did this, but I went at home to stop him. He'd chuck his computer in the corner of his room while the teacher was talking and he'd be playing his Xbox. So he weren't really... Jenni Awesome: yeah. yeah. Lee: So how's that proving? And you can tell, not being nasty now with the generation, like I said, he's hit 18 now. but his social skills are probably around 14, 15. Because I call them the COVID kids, they will sit with each other. And I get it, because I remember being younger and because we didn't have online, because I got into, like I just said, I was early teenager just before the 2000s, the internet hadn't really taken off. We used to go around one person's house and play the X-Box, there'd be six or seven of us in their bedroom playing FIFA. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: Nowadays, they're doing it from home. So in a way they're doing the same thing but they're not because they got that human connection, they're just hearing people through their headset. So it's not so different to what we was doing but it was the fact that you had to go out and you had to be around each other which made the socialising better. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: And I know some people might say yeah but it's good on the other hand because you know where your child is and I get that as well. It does put my mind at rest sometimes. I don't live in a very safe area so it does put my mind at rest sometimes. Like my daughter's 15. At 15 my step mum and my dad would moan at me for not being in most of the time. Where I would panic if my Jenni Awesome: Mm. Lee: daughter was out all the time. So I'm glad in a way she's still getting her friendship. But it is just through a headset which doesn't help with the social skills. It's a catch 22 again with technology. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Well, you know, at least if they're if they're com we had a house phone. W our our daughter just got her cell phone. She's sixteen and she's gonna be going to college and that's why she's getting a cell phone early. But the I dealt with more drama being an administrator in a school because of what they posted on social media. That's the pictures, it's the text, it's not actual even talking to each other. And that's even more disconnecting. Lee: That's one thing I can say about the place I work at now. They're really good. We make the students hand the phone in as soon as they walk through the door and if they refuse to they can't Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: come in. And that seems to really help. And then we've got work phones but we're not even allowed on our personal mobiles throughout the day until the students are gone. And going back to the secondary school I was in where that's different rule. The students were allowed to have their phones on them. You can notice the difference and I see the UK are trying to put out a no phone rule across all schools and they're getting a lot of backlash from parents Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: because parents are like, well what if I need to contact my child and stuff like that. But you can see the difference. I've said I was in an environment for two years with no phones and it is just so different and even at lunchtime, and again I'm in a building with no outside area, I think we've got a little courtyard. We're having to get the board games out or we're having to get the colouring out or we get the punch bag out and stuff like that. But it's forcing the young people Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: to come and join you. Like I'd get the UNO cards out, I'd be playing with one person and within five minutes I've got ten people around me. Because they can't go off and stand in the corner and go on their phone. So it's either I'm going to stand here Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: bored talking to someone or I'm going to join in the activity desk in front of me. So it does make it so Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: much better. Jenni Awesome: It does. It does. And I I wish that more schools would would do that. Yeah. Lee: And I actually, because that's one thing I struggled at, at the other alternative learning provision I worked at where I was behaviour lead, that was one thing I struggled, I wanted to put in that role and my boss was sort of like, no we can't do that, it's not for the young people and that. And again like you said, it caused so much problems. Because that school I worked in, I had physical restraint. So I just made the rule then, if your mobile phone comes out once in class, you'll get a warning. If it comes out a second time, you'll get a second warning. If it comes out third time, I'm taking your phone. And I've got into physical locations with young people because they've tried to put their phone down in their trousers. But because they've that third warning, and again, I think this helps going back to what we started at beginning the conversation. How does young people feel safe is the barriers and knowing you're going to do what you say. So if I said I'm taking your phone, whether or not you've shoved that down your trousers, I'm not going to then say, I'm going to be like, give me your phone. give me your phone or I'm taking it and I'll physically take it out of their hand. That did calm it down. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Lee: It took three months because you ride the storm and especially if a young person's in a bad mood and they just want to have an occasion with you they will just get their phone out for the sake of it. But it did get to a point Jenni Awesome: yeah. Lee: where 90 % of the time phones weren't seen in classrooms. And again you've got to ride through that storm. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Lee: You've got to go through what you're saying, positive or negative. If you say you're going to do something you've got to do it. And I think in the long run young people respect that. and they feel safe because they know that boundary is in place. They know you're not going to flip-flop between your decisions. Jenni Awesome: Yep, it's that accountability and the consistency because they know if if you say that you're gonna do something and you continually follow through with it no matter what, they know that they can trust you in other areas. Lee: Exactly, and it works both ways, you've got to do that with a positive. If you say to a young person, you can have 10 minutes in the computer at end of the lesson, and you get to the end of the lesson and you've only got 7 minutes left, you've got to that young person 10 minutes, you've promised them that. You can't just say, we've run out of time, we've only got 7 minutes, or you've got to finish off that sentence before you can have it. No, you've promised them that, so you've got to give it to them. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, Lee, we're getting close to time. So I just wanna make sure is there anything else you wanna discuss that I haven't that we haven't covered yet? Lee: No I'm fine, this is my first time, I've only ever done four podcasts and that's usually about my wife straight, this is my first time talking about education on a podcast, I hope I've been Jenni Awesome: Okay. Lee: okay. Jenni Awesome: no, this has been a wonderful conversation. I have to tell you that I agree with so much Lee: Right. Jenni Awesome: of what you are saying and it's it's nice to hear this from your perspective too. Lee: My brilliant. Jenni Awesome: All right. So I'm gonna ask you, I have my last question that I asked my guests. I asked this question because it gets to the heart of why we do what we do every day. If you had the opportunity to change one thing in education that would have the greatest positive impact on the next generation, what would it be? Lee: that's a tough one. There's so much I'd want to change. Jenni Awesome: I know. Lee: think in a weird way, it's that stop the us and them mentality. If I could, and I'm lucky with alternative learning because we use our first names, but I hated in secondary school being called Sir or Mister. And there was points where I'd walk in a classroom and they were told they had to stand up. I'd send them that door open and they'd start going, no, no, sit down, sit down. Because I hate all that formality because that just puts the barriers up. And then when you've got a barrier up with someone, even for the young person that becomes an us and them mentality. So already by time they've walked into the classroom there's a negative experience where if we were all just one community, one collective and we're guiding the young people through their journey I think that would then pass on to the young people when they're adults, they're then dealing with the next set of young people which would then pass on. So I think it's just taking away their us and them mentality. It's not... So I was going to say the classroom's not a battlefield. Yeah, the classroom's not a battlefield. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, because I mean we're we're all humans. Yeah. Lee: And having that mentality, that's what it turns into. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, it does. It it really does. I I I hadn't made that connection before, but you're right. If if we continue to run things that way, we have an adverse environment to learning. Lee: You know, 100%. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Well, Lee, it was wonderful meeting you. It was wonderful having you on the podcast. Lee: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, and before we disappear, what where do we find you on social media? Lee: Yep, so for my education stuff it's Five Point Academy. T-H-R-I-V-E. If you're interested in sports, do wrestling and football and stuff with a guy we met on social media from America and someone I work with at this school I work with. So that's called Unfiltered Wrestling, but that's U-N-F-L-T-D. And then if you just want to know bit more about myself I've got another channel called Always Confused where I just chuck things up that are like I do a bit of vlogging about life because I'm always confused in life so that's the three channels if you want to find me Jenni Awesome: Well again, thank you, Lee, and thank you for tuning in to the Jenny Awesome podcast. We will see you next time.