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Toward The Turning From Scott Gibbs Rethinking The Meaning Of 9 11 · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: your exploration. First of all, thank you so much for
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  Speaker 1: still talking about nine 11, because it really seems like
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  Speaker 1: it's the subject that's fallen off from not only the
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  Speaker 1: front page, But now the Canadians don't even see it
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  Speaker 1: as a terrorist act. I mean, I just I just
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  Speaker 1: don't know where we're going or growing these days. And God,
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  Speaker 1: thank God we've got you in this book.
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  Speaker 2: I appreciate that. You know, it's some people appreciate what
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  Speaker 2: I'm doing and some people that really pushes buttons, you know,
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  Speaker 2: depending on sort of how they see it.
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  Speaker 1: What what would be pushing those buttons for those people?
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  Speaker 1: Because I would love to understand their side of the journey,
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  Speaker 1: because I do want to understand where everybody's coming from.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I think what, what
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  Speaker 2: can happen is that I get sort of, uh, pigeon-toed
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  Speaker 2: or put in a box of sort of uh ultra
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  Speaker 2: woke so to speak i'm just using you know and
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  Speaker 2: that i you know um what i'm really and that
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  Speaker 2: there's somehow moral equivalence and what goes on right like
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  Speaker 2: the u.s deserved it or something like that and i'm
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  Speaker 2: not coming at that from any that's nowhere in me
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  Speaker 2: what i'm trying to do is be diagnostic about the
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  Speaker 2: whole thing yeah sort of look look at it from
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  Speaker 2: from outside and saying, what's going on here? It's, you know,
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  Speaker 2: not as simple as, you know, 19 people drove, you know,
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  Speaker 2: planes into buildings. It's there's a relationship going on or
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  Speaker 2: a relational element that's, you know, being played out.
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  Speaker 1: Because I was in radio and still am a broadcaster.
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  Speaker 1: The thing is, is that this plays out really hard
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  Speaker 1: on my heart because, I mean, I know what we
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  Speaker 1: did as a broadcasting team and what this nation did
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  Speaker 1: behind the scenes. It's the story that will never be told,
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  Speaker 1: what radio and television did to keep our nation together.
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  Speaker 1: And so when I have a book like this, of
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  Speaker 1: course I'm going to pull it in and get deeper.
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  Speaker 1: But then I've got to put it into a conversation
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  Speaker 1: to where these generation alphas and betas understand this was
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  Speaker 1: not a movie, ladies and gentlemen. This actually happened, and
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  Speaker 1: you need to know about it for your generation. And so, Scott,
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  Speaker 1: your book is a tool for me, and that's why
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  Speaker 1: I'm so personal with it.
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I get it. I mean, I'm hoping some
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  Speaker 2: of those generations will take some things from this. You know,
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  Speaker 2: those that haven't lived, didn't live through it like you
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  Speaker 2: and I did. Right. And that, you know, one of
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  Speaker 2: the things they might take from it is something along
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  Speaker 2: the lines of, you know, one, you could remember it
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  Speaker 2: as like never forget. Right. Which is, you know, this
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  Speaker 2: sort of. It tends to be a sort of distrust
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  Speaker 2: element of this, you know, don't let our guard down
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  Speaker 2: again kind of thing. Or it's never forget, like, wow,
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  Speaker 2: there was incredible heroism there and inspirational things happen. And
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  Speaker 2: that is 100% true. I still see things and I'm like, wow,
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  Speaker 2: that's just incredible heroism. The place I come from it
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  Speaker 2: a little bit is we all, maybe we ought to
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  Speaker 2: think about it too, as a reminder, a reminder that
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  Speaker 2: what we do has an impact and that that impact
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  Speaker 2: can have consequences and how we respond to those consequences.
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  Speaker 2: For example, the war on terror, the invasion of Iraq
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  Speaker 2: and Afghanistan, the those in turn have an impact and
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  Speaker 2: that this iterative dance gets played out over time. And
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  Speaker 2: this is sort of the crescendo. 9-11 is the crescendo event.
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  Speaker 2: But it's part of a broader context that we ought
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  Speaker 2: to really think about because if we don't think about it,
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  Speaker 2: we'll just be stuck in it. Like we kind of
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  Speaker 2: are in Iraq today, by the way.
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  Speaker 1: Boy, you just rustled up some memories there, man. That's
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  Speaker 1: some stuff that I covered in my daily writing, wondering
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  Speaker 1: what led to this. This didn't just happen. There was
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  Speaker 1: a lot of things that had to take place before
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  Speaker 1: this moment. And when you really do dig in like
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  Speaker 1: you have, there are some parts of this storyline that
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  Speaker 1: people just are not talking about.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think what we tend
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  Speaker 2: to do is depending on, quote, what side we're on,
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  Speaker 2: we pick a side and blame the other, so to speak.
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  Speaker 2: Even if we're just describing what we think caused this event,
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  Speaker 2: we tend to point at the other side. My strong
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  Speaker 2: belief is that when we do that, it actually participates
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  Speaker 2: in or makes the conflict worse, right? Um, and so
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  Speaker 2: what we need to do is sort of step back
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  Speaker 2: and understand that this is a dynamic that occurs between two, uh,
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  Speaker 2: sort of groups, uh, for lack of a better term, and, um,
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  Speaker 2: that it has a relational element to it. And that,
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  Speaker 2: that's the piece that, you know, we ought to think about, uh, the,
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  Speaker 2: the dynamics that are going on here in a more, uh,
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  Speaker 2: relational sense and not just this perpetrator victim kind of
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  Speaker 2: construct that we tend to.
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  Speaker 1: Use please don't move there's more with scott gibbs coming
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  Speaker 1: up next the name of the book toward the turning
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  Speaker 1: rethinking the meaning of 9-11 we are back with scott
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  Speaker 1: gibbs How can we get it back into a dialogue? Because,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I believe it was Tony Katz, the radio
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  Speaker 1: jock that was on there with the talk show. And
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  Speaker 1: he said that we've made friends with Japan. Why can't
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  Speaker 1: we make friends with other people that have done things
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  Speaker 1: against us? And it really did kind of set my
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  Speaker 1: heart back because I am a peacekeeper. And I do
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  Speaker 1: want to know how we can get it back into
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  Speaker 1: the dialogue so that we can find some sort of peace.
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  Speaker 1: Or is there peace available?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a really challenging issue. And we can
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  Speaker 2: think about it in any number of different ways, right?
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  Speaker 2: The trust is, you know, depending on who we're talking about, right?
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  Speaker 2: The trust is destroyed. The commitment to sort of dialogue
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  Speaker 2: is destroyed in many ways. cases particularly around islamist groups
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  Speaker 2: right and frankly they're closed off in in many ways
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  Speaker 2: to even having discussions so you know how how do
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  Speaker 2: you have a discussion with someone or open up a
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  Speaker 2: dialogue with someone who's pretty closed off and you know
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  Speaker 2: look this is like one one piece of the puzzle
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  Speaker 2: right but it's so it's The construct I tend to
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  Speaker 2: use is something along the lines of, think about it
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  Speaker 2: like it's a cult. And I'm not saying it is
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  Speaker 2: or isn't a cult. I'm just saying, think about it
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  Speaker 2: that way, which is, how do you talk to people
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  Speaker 2: like that? And how do you dialogue with people like that?
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  Speaker 2: You have to first listen, because anything you push on
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  Speaker 2: is going to be considered at some deep level as
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  Speaker 2: a threat, right? So, That's one piece that comes to
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  Speaker 2: mind as I hear you. How do we repair? How
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  Speaker 2: do we begin dialogue? It usually starts with small steps.
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  Speaker 2: It starts with... If somebody makes a bid toward you,
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  Speaker 2: that you're open to it and that you respond in kind,
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  Speaker 2: that you watch what you're saying so that it's not provoking.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you have free speech, but you also got
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  Speaker 2: to recognize your free speech can have an impact and
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  Speaker 2: it might make things worse. So you might want to
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  Speaker 2: think about what you're doing. So in any case, maybe
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  Speaker 2: not the most structured answer, like a laundry list of
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  Speaker 2: things to do, but some items to think about.
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  Speaker 1: The book we're talking about is Toward the Turning, Rethinking
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  Speaker 1: the Meaning of 9-11. Am I wrong in saying that
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  Speaker 1: you can visibly see the line between the millennials and
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  Speaker 1: those that are younger and the millennials forward to the
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  Speaker 1: baby boomers? Because it seems like these generations that live
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  Speaker 1: 9-11 still believe in staying at home, that we don't
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  Speaker 1: want to leave our community. We're safe right here where
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  Speaker 1: we are. Do not make me go downtown, uptown, city center.
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  Speaker 2: Smooth. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting thought about how
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  Speaker 2: does trauma impact us sort of socially, right? We had
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  Speaker 2: a financial crisis that occurred. That had an impact. We
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  Speaker 2: had a worldwide pandemic that occurred. And that's in the
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  Speaker 2: broader– those are the specific events in a broader context
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  Speaker 2: of just– really the globalization and the spread of modernity
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: right sort of the western world's values and beliefs permeating
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  Speaker 2: other parts of the world so there's a lot of
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  Speaker 2: flux and but you know when trauma occurs we react
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  Speaker 2: right we tend to close down we tend to be
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  Speaker 2: more protective our thinking can become more closed off right
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  Speaker 2: that that is not becomes on a through line to
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  Speaker 2: you know what our normal identity looks like, hopefully open,
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  Speaker 2: hopefully flexible, right. To more and more closed to become
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  Speaker 2: starting to look at others as it relates to my identity. When,
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  Speaker 2: what do I mean by that? Either you're in my
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  Speaker 2: group or you're not. And if you're, and if not,
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  Speaker 2: it's sort of, you then become... an enemy, an obstacle,
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  Speaker 2: a resource, right, that then gets, I can make justifications around,
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  Speaker 2: I can, you know, deny certain things about you, you
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  Speaker 2: lose your humanity, potentially. And so that, that trauma has
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  Speaker 2: that effect in vulnerability more generally. And I do talk
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  Speaker 2: about that, you know, in the book.
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  Speaker 1: How did you even go into this project? And the
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  Speaker 1: reason why I bring this up is because I am
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  Speaker 1: a daily writer. I did daily write during this whole
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  Speaker 1: entire thing. In fact, I was daily writing when that
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  Speaker 1: second airplane went into the end of the building. And
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: the thing about it is, though, is that it did
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  Speaker 1: become my second book. But the problem is that was
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  Speaker 1: the most difficult book I had ever had to read
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  Speaker 1: because my writing, my personality, my life changed because of 9-11.
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  Speaker 1: So therefore, how did you have the courage and the
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  Speaker 1: confidence to go back into something so dang dark, dude?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, it's a, it's a
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  Speaker 2: personal question and a sort of a, uh, uh, I
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  Speaker 2: don't know, practical or, you know, what happened here. So,
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  Speaker 2: but after nine 11, I was in graduate school during
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  Speaker 2: nine 11 studying psychology and, uh, I, like everyone, was
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  Speaker 2: looking around saying, what in the world just happened? Why
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  Speaker 2: did this happen? And the shock of it all, right?
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  Speaker 2: And the travesty at all and the sadness of it all.
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  Speaker 2: Not long after that, I'm like a lot of people,
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  Speaker 2: sort of like, what happened here? What's going on? And
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  Speaker 2: that caused me to write a final paper for a
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  Speaker 2: class I was in. Professor said, Scott, this is really interesting.
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  Speaker 2: You ought to see about getting it published. I did.
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  Speaker 2: It was a couple of year peer review process to
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  Speaker 2: get it published in a psychology journal. And that's how
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  Speaker 2: I sort of entered this topic. I then broadened out
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  Speaker 2: the topic and wrote the book. But Just to bring
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  Speaker 2: it more closer to home, you know, I grew up
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  Speaker 2: the way I grew up in the place I grew
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  Speaker 2: up in, into the identities I have with the parents
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  Speaker 2: I had in the social context of a place called Flint, Michigan. Right. And.
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  Speaker 2: To me, conflict has always been there. It hasn't been
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  Speaker 2: negotiated particularly well. It has what I've seen as terrible consequences, right?
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  Speaker 2: I have seen the suffering of people who, you know,
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  Speaker 2: just have less and or have struggles to get what
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  Speaker 2: they need. And that these things kind of play together
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  Speaker 2: within my personality of like wanting to help heal people.
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  Speaker 2: And I look at an event like this as the
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  Speaker 2: 9-11 and it's at a grander scale. And I say
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  Speaker 2: to myself, can I do something here? And that's sort
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  Speaker 2: of what, you know, it felt, I mean, if I
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  Speaker 2: were to be really direct, it felt like a calling
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  Speaker 2: at the time, like sort of I'm supposed to do this.
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  Speaker 2: And so I just tried to listen to myself and
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  Speaker 2: here we are.
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  Speaker 1: I hope I don't step on anybody's toes when I
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  Speaker 1: bring this up, but I do want to know, I,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I've always believed that the abused becomes the abuser.
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  Speaker 1: Look at nine 11 and see where we are today. Hmm. I,
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  Speaker 1: you see what I mean where I'm coming from here?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, I do. I do. Uh, you know, it's, uh,
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  Speaker 2: When you have a sense of vulnerability, it gets pushed.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it probably– this is not something I've thought
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  Speaker 2: a ton about, but I do wonder about it. It's
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  Speaker 2: like America is in relative decline, which is to say
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  Speaker 2: China is on the rise, right? We don't have– sort
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  Speaker 2: of carte blanche in the world the way we used to.
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  Speaker 2: And I think these, we feel a little bit more
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  Speaker 2: vulnerable than we have in the past. And that that
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  Speaker 2: vulnerability has caused us to harden, right? To just grab
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  Speaker 2: onto strengths and let's push and let's agitate. And the
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  Speaker 2: tricky part with that is it ends up sort of
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  Speaker 2: becoming self-fulfilling because people are back away from you they
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  Speaker 2: push back on you right and and they ultimately i
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  Speaker 2: mean i see it with people who sort of you
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  Speaker 2: know individuals who are let's just say they're paranoid right
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  Speaker 2: and and they're suspicious of others what do they do
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  Speaker 2: they don't trust them which means that it makes them
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  Speaker 2: abrasive it makes them sometimes aggressive other people are afraid
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  Speaker 2: of them And they avoid them or they attack back.
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  Speaker 2: And it then becomes self-justifying. So there are these ways
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  Speaker 2: that we do things that sort of bring out our
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  Speaker 2: ultimate fears. And I do think there's some of that
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  Speaker 2: going on in today's world. Wow. Around America in particular. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Where can people go to find out more about you, Scott?
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Because 10, 15 minutes with you is not enough. And
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  Speaker 1: I want people to know who you are and basically
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  Speaker 1: to really get into where you're growing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that. So the book's available, you know,
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  Speaker 2: sort of anywhere books are sold online. And you can
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  Speaker 2: go to my website, which is mscottgibbs.com.
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  Speaker 1: Please come back to this show anytime in the future
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  Speaker 1: because this talk cannot stop. It is in my heart
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  Speaker 1: so deep. The more and more we ignore it, I
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: think the angrier I get because it's like, don't stop
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  Speaker 1: talking about this.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I really do appreciate it.
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  Speaker 2: And I have to say. many of the same dynamics
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  Speaker 2: that I talk about in the book apply to sort
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  Speaker 2: of left and right and the extremes in America today.
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  Speaker 2: I'd love to talk with you about that at some
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: point in time, if it makes sense. A lot of
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: thoughts about that too. Excellent.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you be brilliant today.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you.