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113 - Writing unlikeable characters well · Story Magic

• 2:28
  Emily: Hey, writers.
• 2:29
  Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Rachel: I'm Rachel.
• 2:33
  Emily: And I'm Emily.
• 2:35
  Rachel: And today we're talking about writing unlikable characters.
• 2:40
  Rachel: So this question came from a member of our tenacious writing community, and the question was, how do you write unlikable characters?
• 2:51
  Rachel: Well, which is a big question, a big worry.
• 2:54
  Rachel: Totally understandable.
• 2:57
  Rachel: But when Emily and I were talking about this, we want to start this conversation by, like, dissecting what it.
• 3:03
  Rachel: What is this question?
• 3:05
  Rachel: And not in a bad way, but I think when we're asking a question like, how do you write unlikable characters?
• 3:09
  Rachel: Well, there's a lot of different meaning to that question, because what you could be asking is, how do we write unlikable characters to be more likable?
• 3:23
  Rachel: Which is one path that, you know might be your goal, might not be your goal?
• 3:28
  Rachel: And one question is, how do we write unlikable characters that serve their purpose in the story or that are effective at their goals or roles in the story?
• 3:39
  Rachel: And those are two different questions.
• 3:41
  Rachel: So I think if you're thinking, I'm not sure if my character is unlikable or not, or how do I write my unlikable character?
• 3:45
  Rachel: Well, take a step back for a minute and be like, what actually are you asking?
• 3:53
  Rachel: Are you wanting to make this character more likable, more enjoyable, more whatever, or are you wanting to take someone who is, quote, massive air quotes, an unlikable character and give them a purpose on the page and execute that purpose effectively successfully?
• 4:12
  Emily: Yeah. So if we take the first.
• 4:14
  Emily: Right.
• 4:15
  Emily: The first option first, and we consider, you know, how do you make an unlikable character more likable?
• 4:22
  Emily: I think that this.
• 4:23
  Emily: This is often what we're talking about when we're talking about a main character.
• 4:26
  Emily: Right?
• 4:26
  Emily: You feel like, I find a lot of writers who come to me and they're like, I fear that my main charact, the person we're spending the story with, reads too unlikable. Right?
• 4:33
  Emily: And I feel like sometimes that fear comes from a fear of allowing your characters to make mistakes, right?
• 4:40
  Emily: You have a flawed character, they make mistakes, and you want to make sure that your reader understands that.
• 4:45
  Emily: And that's really just character development, Right?
• 4:47
  Emily: Like, people are flawed, and so we want to make sure that their flaws have a purpose, right?
• 4:53
  Emily: That they came from somewhere, that they have a reason for existing, and that we can understand.
• 4:58
  Emily: If we can understand and empathize with a character's fears and desires, then it's a lot easier and their beliefs, it's a lot easier to understand, like, why they're making the decisions that they're making and kind of forgive them for unlikable decisions that they make.
• 5:12
  Emily: So I feel like that's kind of.
• 5:14
  Emily: That's how we make unlikable characters more likable.
• 5:17
  Emily: But at the same time, you have to really take into consideration, like, unlikable to who?
• 5:22
  Rachel: Yes, because who's saying this?
• 5:26
  Emily: Who is.
• 5:27
  Emily: Who are they going to be unlikable to?
• 5:29
  Emily: So, for instance, for behind the Crimson Curtain, my main character is a female con artist, and there are a lot of people who just flat out would not like her because simply because they don't like it when women don't do what they're supposed to.
• 5:42
  Emily: Right.
• 5:43
  Emily: And don't act in a morally good way.
• 5:45
  Emily: And so my book's not for those people.
• 5:47
  Emily: And so I think ideal reader is really important in this.
• 5:50
  Emily: In this question, because it's like, Fearen is very likable to people who empathize with and understand her and are, like, predisposed to like her.
• 5:57
  Emily: Right.
• 5:58
  Emily: She's very flawed.
• 5:59
  Emily: I'm not saying she's not flawed.
• 6:00
  Emily: She's extremely flawed.
• 6:01
  Emily: But, like, if you are predisposed to kind of empathize with her, then there's a lot to like about her.
• 6:08
  Emily: And so I feel like that's kind of how you address that question.
• 6:12
  Emily: But for the people who aren't predisposed to like her just because of what she is and aren't willing to, like, listen to her because of, you know, their own prejudices and biases, like, my book's not for them.
• 6:24
  Emily: And so they're gonna find her unlikable, but that's fine.
• 6:27
  Emily: It's kind of like, for, like, young adult novels.
• 6:31
  Emily: Right.
• 6:31
  Emily: There's, like, a whole population of people out there who would find all young adult, like, main characters really unlikable because they would find them annoying and whiny and, like, emotional.
• 6:41
  Emily: Right.
• 6:42
  Emily: And. But those aren't the people that those YA books are written for.
• 6:45
  Emily: And so it doesn't matter that they don't like them.
• 6:49
  Emily: So, yeah.
• 6:50
  Rachel: Yeah. Like, likeable is a likable slash.
• 6:53
  Rachel: Unlikable are preferences that your readers can attach or a reader can attach to a character for any reason.
• 7:01
  Rachel: And those reasons are not always great reasons or logical reasons or whatever reasons.
• 7:08
  Rachel: Like, there's inherent bias.
• 7:10
  Rachel: There's misogyny, there's racism.
• 7:12
  Rachel: There's any reason for someone to decide that they don't like a character.
• 7:17
  Emily: Yeah.
• 7:17
  Rachel: And that's on the reader.
• 7:19
  Rachel: But as, like, the author.
• 7:21
  Rachel: That's not like a.
• 7:23
  Rachel: What we're asking instead is, what are we doing with this character?
• 7:27
  Rachel: What are.
• 7:28
  Rachel: What are our goals with this character?
• 7:31
  Rachel: Why am I writing them a specific way?
• 7:31
  Rachel: And those can be for a varying degree of reasons.
• 7:35
  Rachel: Like, you could write a character that is, quote, unlikable to the general population, but you're doing it for a specific reason because you're trying to elicit a specific emotion or a feeling or to prove a point or to show a lesson or whatever it is.
• 7:56
  Rachel: And that in that case, that unlikable character might be, quote, written well, but really you're just executing on the purpose of why you wrote that character.
• 8:07
  Rachel: So that's, to me, that's the more powerful question, is, who are you writing this character for?
• 8:13
  Rachel: Why are you writing them?
• 8:13
  Rachel: What are you trying to do with them?
• 8:17
  Rachel: Because if you're writing a character that, you know, might be, quote, unlikable but is actually, like, really representative, your personal experience, and, like, it's really meaningful to you, and you're writing it for a reader that's really similar to you, and you want that to resonate with that reader.
• 8:36
  Rachel: Cool.
• 8:36
  Rachel: Like, that's your goal, and you're trying to.
• 8:38
  Rachel: You're trying to use that character to speak to that reader.
• 8:41
  Rachel: And then your barometer is, does it speak to that reader or not?
• 8:45
  Rachel: And if it does, amazing.
• 8:47
  Rachel: You've accomplished it.
• 8:48
  Rachel: You've met your goal.
• 8:49
  Rachel: Like, the.
• 8:50
  Rachel: The period.
• 8:51
  Rachel: This conversation stops there, like, you're done.
• 8:54
  Rachel: But if you're writing, like, a character that you know or you know or.
• 8:58
  Rachel: Sorry.
• 8:59
  Rachel: On the flip side, if you are trying to purposefully write, like, an unlikable character that you want to, like, prove a message or a point, and then nobody likes them, but they learn the message.
• 9:14
  Rachel: You've done your job, right?
• 9:15
  Rachel: Like, you did it cool.
• 9:17
  Rachel: You accomplished your goal.
• 9:18
  Rachel: So I think you have to ask these other questions as an author.
• 9:21
  Rachel: It's not just likable, unlikable.
• 9:23
  Rachel: It's who is it for?
• 9:26
  Rachel: What do you want them to do?
• 9:28
  Rachel: Is it accomplishing that purpose?
• 9:31
  Rachel: Is this character, you know, fully fleshed out with character development?
• 9:35
  Rachel: Like, I think all of that is.
• 9:37
  Rachel: Is a given.
• 9:37
  Rachel: Yes, we absolutely want that or not a given.
• 9:41
  Rachel: But I mean, like, part of this conversation, it's, like, wrapped up in that.
• 9:44
  Rachel: And if we can say yes to those things, then I think you can stand behind that character no matter the reviews that you get.
• 9:53
  Rachel: But, like, you.
• 9:54
  Rachel: You don't want.
• 9:55
  Rachel: I mean, I think the.
• 9:56
  Rachel: The sneaky part of this question is I'M writing an unlikable character, but I want positive reviews.
• 10:05
  Rachel: You know, that's like, that could be a sneaky part.
• 10:08
  Rachel: And that's the part you have to pull apart and be like, there's gonna probably be a disconnect here.
• 10:14
  Rachel: Yeah, you might be setting yourself up for some disappointment if you're not aware of what you're really asking of your character and expecting your reader to say.
• 10:23
  Emily: Yeah, I feel like if I, like, for Crimson, you know, I kind of knew going into once, when it came out and was published, I knew that I was gonna have people who really didn't like her.
• 10:36
  Emily: And so kind of going into that, knowing I had made that decision, sticking by that decision and deciding to kind of, you know, go forward with it, I was able to process my reviews a little bit better.
• 10:47
  Emily: Like, personally, like, they didn't hurt me as much because I wasn't trying to make everybody happy.
• 10:52
  Emily: There's like a specific decision that she makes at 23% in the story.
• 10:56
  Emily: And the reason I know that, because multiple people have left reviews that they DNF'd at 23%.
• 11:00
  Emily: And I'm like, great.
• 11:01
  Emily: That was my, like, that was my test.
• 11:04
  Emily: Yeah. Like, could you get past that or not?
• 11:06
  Emily: And like, yeah, you just have to be aware of that.
• 11:09
  Emily: So it's like, yeah, like you said, what are you trying to achieve in this story?
• 11:12
  Emily: Like, what are you trying to say to the people that you want to read it?
• 11:16
  Emily: And for those people, are you delivering that?
• 11:16
  Emily: And do your characters feel three dimensional?
• 11:21
  Emily: Right.
• 11:22
  Emily: Are the things that make them unlikable should have a purpose for existing.
• 11:25
  Emily: Right.
• 11:26
  Emily: They should have a purpose for existing in the story, to push the story forward.
• 11:29
  Emily: But also they need to have a, A foundation.
• 11:32
  Emily: They need to have come from somewhere.
• 11:34
  Emily: They're unlikable for a specific reason.
• 11:37
  Emily: For some reason, I keep thinking of Sansa Stark.
• 11:39
  Emily: Yeah.
• 11:40
  Emily: And I feel like a lot of people really hated Sansa in the first, you know, few books and seasons because she was annoying.
• 11:47
  Emily: Is annoyed 13 or whatever.
• 11:50
  Emily: She's the little girl.
• 11:51
  Rachel: She's a 13 year old girl.
• 11:52
  Rachel: That's why.
• 11:53
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 11:53
  Rachel: They're like, why?
• 11:55
  Emily: Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's hard with her next to Arya because Arya's so cool.
• 12:01
  Rachel: Yes.
• 12:01
  Emily: From the get go.
• 12:02
  Emily: You know what I mean?
• 12:02
  Emily: Like, she's so independent.
• 12:04
  Emily: She, like does what feels morally right.
• 12:05
  Emily: Like she's willing to stand up.
• 12:07
  Emily: And Sansa is enamored by this, by the power of this world.
• 12:10
  Emily: She wants to be a part of that.
• 12:12
  Emily: She wants to be a part of the game.
• 12:13
  Emily: She wants to be a part of everything and it makes her naive.
• 12:15
  Emily: But that's on purpose because she is a character that we.
• 12:20
  Emily: She's the character that is manipulated by this world.
• 12:22
  Emily: Like no one else is manipulated quite as much as she is by the people around her.
• 12:27
  Emily: And it's her growing into her power and like flipping that manipulation back on others.
• 12:32
  Emily: Like, that's her arc and like, if she didn't start that way, unlikable in that very specific, intentional way, then, you know, unlikable, quote, unquote.
• 12:39
  Emily: I've always loved her because I was predisposed to.
• 12:41
  Emily: I was once a 13 year old girl who wanted to be a princess.
• 12:45
  Emily: Like, you know, but I think, you know, misogyny, a lot of people didn't like that.
• 12:50
  Emily: And I. But I do think that that was a decision that, you know, George R.R.
• 12:53
  Emily: martin made on purpose.
• 12:54
  Rachel: Yeah. This is actually a really interesting discussion because then you take a character like Dani who.
• 13:00
  Rachel: Because is very likable until the last season.
• 13:03
  Emily: Yeah.
• 13:04
  Rachel: And then we all hate her.
• 13:05
  Rachel: And I think, like, so I want to explore technique for excessive a second.
• 13:11
  Rachel: How do you bring this character development to the page?
• 13:14
  Rachel: With Sansa, I think we see her growth, we see her learning.
• 13:18
  Rachel: She experiences a lot of really shitty, terrible things.
• 13:21
  Rachel: But I think like, there's a part of Sansa's development that we see and we feel and that feels supported.
• 13:28
  Rachel: So like, even though she's a 13 year old girl chasing after a prince who is the worst prince that ever lived, I think we can resonate with like her thought processes, her naivete, her, her goals in the sense of like, I want to be a princess, you know, like I. I'm meant to be the queen.
• 13:47
  Rachel: Like I'm.
• 13:48
  Rachel: I was bred for this.
• 13:49
  Rachel: I was born for this.
• 13:49
  Rachel: This is what I want.
• 13:50
  Rachel: Like, I think we can resonate with that.
• 13:53
  Rachel: And then with Dani, we can.
• 13:55
  Rachel: And what's always felt, and this is going to invite some debate, but this is what character, this is what analysis is.
• 14:00
  Emily: Yeah.
• 14:01
  Rachel: I always felt like Dany's last season took all of her growth and just threw it out the window.
• 14:07
  Rachel: And so then.
• 14:08
  Rachel: I know, and we've talked about this.
• 14:10
  Rachel: Yeah, I feel like we lost the reasoning behind her descent into madness.
• 14:17
  Rachel: Like, I can see what happened and I can be like, yep, I understand why you went crazy.
• 14:22
  Rachel: But I think like, I felt we, we missed out on the reasoning behind why she was unlikable.
• 14:32
  Rachel: And then it became to me, like, really frustrating because I spent so much time rooting for her only to feel like, all that was taken away.
• 14:43
  Rachel: Now, here's the point, though.
• 14:44
  Rachel: If I take out the creators of the show who I think gave up because they were trying to do Star Wars.
• 14:50
  Rachel: So take them out of it for a second.
• 14:52
  Rachel: If that author was like, actually, I'm trying to show you the story of what happens to a person or a character who, you know, loses their mind because they've become so wrapped up in the politics of a world that is built on making you crazy.
• 15:11
  Rachel: I'd be like, okay, well, I might have hated it.
• 15:14
  Rachel: Successful.
• 15:15
  Rachel: You did that.
• 15:16
  Rachel: Check the box.
• 15:17
  Rachel: I like it.
• 15:18
  Rachel: But your intent as an author perhaps worked.
• 15:21
  Rachel: I don't think that was the case.
• 15:22
  Rachel: I think the show writers got lazy.
• 15:24
  Emily: But. But I agree.
• 15:25
  Emily: I agree that they did, but I think that the.
• 15:28
  Emily: So after that season came out, I then went back and I watched all of them in succession, sort of looking for that.
• 15:33
  Emily: And I caveat.
• 15:35
  Emily: I don't think it was implemented well, but I think what they were trying to do, which is relevant to this conversation, is they were trying to make Dani likable in a lot of specific ways that were so likable universally.
• 15:48
  Emily: Right. Like, she's the underdog.
• 15:50
  Emily: She's a woman.
• 15:51
  Emily: We want her to succeed.
• 15:52
  Emily: Like, she's vicious.
• 15:53
  Emily: She's willing to do what it takes.
• 15:54
  Emily: She.
• 15:55
  Emily: That. I think it.
• 15:56
  Emily: Like, those things overshadowed the dis.
• 15:59
  Emily: Like, there were moments in the seasons leading up to that where she made really terrible decisions that foreshadowed where she was gonna go.
• 16:06
  Emily: And I think had it been implemented correctly, Right.
• 16:08
  Emily: It would have been an interesting flip on the unlikable to likable, you know, spectrum where she had all these unlikable traits, but we were so sort of starstruck by the things that made her likable that we were willing to forgive them.
• 16:20
  Emily: And I feel like that would have been a very, you know, had the potential to be very powerful.
• 16:24
  Emily: I do think that they.
• 16:25
  Emily: It didn't.
• 16:26
  Emily: It wasn't implemented the way that I think it should have been.
• 16:29
  Emily: But I do think that's what they were trying to do, was show that, like, right.
• 16:32
  Emily: We get starstruck by these stories, by, like, these stories in these aspects of people that are.
• 16:37
  Emily: We are predisposed to, like, a lot, and we are willing to forgive their flaws.
• 16:43
  Emily: And so when those flaws come to the surface, I do think it causes this debate that we're having right now where it's like, you know, was.
• 16:49
  Emily: You know, was it there all along or was it not?
• 16:51
  Emily: And so I always think it's really fascinating when people get.
• 16:54
  Emily: When we get into this debate about Daenerys because.
• 16:57
  Emily: Because of this exact.
• 16:58
  Emily: Exactly what we're talking about.
• 16:59
  Rachel: But no, I. I mean, I. I've.
• 17:02
  Rachel: I've rewatched all the seasons in success, succession, too, and seen the hints, but they weren't.
• 17:09
  Rachel: They weren't foreshadowing to me.
• 17:11
  Rachel: They were, like, options we could have used and didn't.
• 17:16
  Rachel: So I just agree.
• 17:16
  Rachel: I think that they just.
• 17:18
  Rachel: It might have been that they didn't know where they were going to take her arc and didn't support it, which is fine.
• 17:24
  Rachel: There's debate about it.
• 17:26
  Rachel: But I think Joffrey is an unlikable character in the sense of, like, we all hate him.
• 17:31
  Rachel: And he was written well because he successfully achieved his purpose.
• 17:36
  Rachel: And Ramsey. Ramsey Bond.
• 17:38
  Emily: Like, I love Ramsay so much.
• 17:40
  Emily: He's so terrible.
• 17:41
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 17:42
  Emily: So that I love how bad he is.
• 17:44
  Rachel: That's an unlikable character.
• 17:45
  Emily: Well written.
• 17:46
  Rachel: Yeah, yeah, written well.
• 17:48
  Rachel: But they're not what is, well, mean.
• 17:52
  Rachel: I mean, I think this goes back to our original debate of, like, the reason we like to hate Ramsay Bolton is because he was so terrible and, like, in an interesting, compelling, and I think I would say, like, backed up way, like, his psychosis and his psychopathy is, like, very clear.
• 18:16
  Rachel: How you got there.
• 18:18
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 18:19
  Emily: His relationship with his father.
• 18:21
  Emily: Right.
• 18:21
  Emily: Like, all of that stuff bolsters and supports why he is so terrible.
• 18:27
  Emily: And so we love.
• 18:28
  Emily: Yeah, we love to hate him, like you said.
• 18:30
  Emily: Oh, man.
• 18:31
  Emily: I didn't think we were gonna go down the Game of Thrones path today.
• 18:34
  Rachel: But, yeah, Game of Thrones has tons of really likable characters and tons of un.
• 18:40
  Rachel: Unlikable characters.
• 18:41
  Rachel: Really unlikable characters.
• 18:43
  Rachel: But I do think in most.
• 18:45
  Rachel: I. I would say this is probably more true of the books which I haven't read, but I'm gonna say I think it's more true of the books that they.
• 18:52
  Rachel: The characters that are likable and the characters that are unlikable are all still accomplishing their purposes.
• 18:59
  Emily: Yes. Very, very specific purposes within the web and the message around power and honor and, like, what it takes, you know, the sacrifices that people are willing to take.
• 19:09
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 19:11
  Rachel: The Hound, like, starts as very unlikable, becomes very likable the more we get to know him.
• 19:19
  Rachel: You know, Like, I think that book is, if you want to study probably unlikable characters done well, that's a.
• 19:25
  Rachel: Maybe a good series for that.
• 19:26
  Emily: The master class.
• 19:27
  Rachel: Yeah. But I do think that George R.R.
• 19:30
  Rachel: martin's choices feel very intentional for a reason.
• 19:35
  Rachel: We can see that Reason play out on the page.
• 19:38
  Rachel: We can see the.
• 19:39
  Rachel: You know, the consequences point to a message that's like, even though this character is doing bad things, here's what we're learning, here's why.
• 19:49
  Emily: What we're learning, and here's why they're doing it.
• 19:51
  Emily: Those are the two sort of things.
• 19:52
  Emily: Yeah.
• 19:52
  Emily: The purpose in your story and the where the.
• 19:55
  Emily: Where those character traits came from.
• 19:57
  Emily: And then bias, you know, examine all the characters that you don't like and ask why you don't like them.
• 20:03
  Emily: Yes, right.
• 20:04
  Emily: And ask if that's, you know, if that's bias and.
• 20:08
  Emily: Or if it's intentional on the author's part that you.
• 20:10
  Emily: They don't want you to like them.
• 20:11
  Emily: You know.
• 20:12
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 20:13
  Rachel: Yeah. I think.
• 20:14
  Rachel: I mean, I feel like this is another reason why I would caution you against labeling your own characters this way is because we're talking in the author space.
• 20:25
  Rachel: In the reader space, they can label characters however they want to label, but you'll have people label characters unlikable simply because their experience is different than the reader's experience.
• 20:39
  Rachel: And so then you have all sorts of very uncomfortable and problematic reasons why that characterism.
• 20:45
  Rachel: Why this reader feels like that character is unreliable, that actually have nothing to do with the story itself.
• 20:52
  Rachel: So I think from the writer space, this is why it's really important to focus on what we've been talking about in the reader space.
• 21:01
  Rachel: Your personal preferences and your.
• 21:04
  Rachel: In your inherent bias and the way you look at the world impacts how you absorb characters.
• 21:10
  Rachel: And you, as a reader, dear listener, should be thoughtful, but not a lot of readers are, and that's an unfortunate thing.
• 21:21
  Rachel: You know, a lot of.
• 21:22
  Rachel: I've seen people call for, like, I want to read more diverse stories, and then they leave reviews that are like, I didn't like that character.
• 21:30
  Rachel: And I'm like, okay, you have.
• 21:32
  Rachel: Something is not lining up here.
• 21:34
  Emily: You need to work through something.
• 21:36
  Rachel: You need to work through something.
• 21:38
  Rachel: So I think, like, just, you know, take.
• 21:40
  Rachel: Take that criticism with a grain of salt also.
• 21:43
  Rachel: And then be aware of how you internalize stories like you just said, Emily.
• 21:50
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, it's subjective.
• 21:52
  Emily: Likability is entirely subjective.
• 21:54
  Emily: We're all human.
• 21:55
  Emily: We're all flawed.
• 21:56
  Emily: We all make mistakes.
• 21:57
  Emily: We're all worthy, in my opinion of love.
• 21:59
  Emily: And so the like of if something is likable or not likable about someone, that is.
• 22:04
  Emily: That's on.
• 22:04
  Emily: That's about you and like your judgments and not about them.
• 22:09
  Emily: Unless that character is very flat and like a trope or something, in which case you know, let's make them three dimensional.
• 22:14
  Emily: Exactly.
• 22:15
  Rachel: Do I make them three dimensional?
• 22:15
  Rachel: And then if you're.
• 22:19
  Rachel: If you find yourself getting this feedback, just mine a little deeper into it.
• 22:23
  Rachel: Like, what does that mean?
• 22:24
  Rachel: Why did we feel that way?
• 22:26
  Rachel: What.
• 22:26
  Rachel: What might I do to bring the purpose of this character more to the forefront?
• 22:31
  Emily: Okay. If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 22:38
  Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
• 22:41
  Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 22:46
  Emily: Link in the show notes.
• 22:47
  Emily: We'll see you there.
• 22:51
  Rachel: It.