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36. Why Relationships Beat Sales Pipelines with Anna McGovern · Scrappy but Successful [Consultant's Personalities When No One's Watching]

0:03
Jack: What's happening everybody? Welcome to Scrappy What's Successful, the show where I sit down with
0:06
Jack: your favorite consultants and we find out if they're successful today because they're sophisticated or
0:10
Jack: because they're a little bit scrappy. I'm your host, Jack Tompkins, CEO of Pineapple Consulting
0:14
Jack: Firm and Pineapple AI analyst, always helping small businesses become more data-driven. Fun fact of
0:18
Jack: the day. This, if you can believe it, we got a supply chain management fun
0:22
Jack: fact. Turns out supply chain management has been it's been around since before the pyramids.
0:26
Jack: So apparently ancient Sumerians kept detailed clay tablets. Of trade routes, inventory, and logistics. It's
0:30
Jack: over 4,000 years ago. So in the world of AI that we live in, even
0:34
Jack: 4,000 years ago, 4,000 years into the future, it's always been somebody built the thing,
0:38
Jack: somebody buys the thing, and somebody transfers it between them. But that's neither here nor
0:42
Jack: there. Today I'm joined by my friend Anna McGovern. She's the founder of Pondview Consulting.
0:46
Jack: She transforms supply chains into an actual competitive advantage.
0:50
Anna: Plus
1:00
Jack: So she's been, I mean, chief procurement officer of Unilever, chief supply chain officer for
1:04
Jack: the food bank in New York City. she's the author author of Anti Fragile Supply
1:08
Jack: Chains. Anna, you've done a lot. I'm super excited to chat with another Yankee fan.
1:12
Jack: We know that you're successful today. The question I have for you is do you
1:16
Jack: think you fall more on the sophisticated side or on the scrappy side?
1:21
Anna: Hey Jack, thank you for that intro. And thank you for that question. Unequivocally, I
1:24
Anna: have to say I come from the scrappy side. No question about it. Nothing sophisticated
1:27
Anna: here.
1:31
Jack: Nice. I love it. Okay. Let's jump in. Where did you grow up? Did you
1:36
Jack: have any entrepreneurs in the family?
1:42
Anna: I come from a long line of entrepreneurs. So I'm the daughter of immigrants and
1:47
Anna: my dad owned a convenience store for forty plus years and and you know I
1:52
Anna: was grateful not to have to work in the store, at least not the hard,
1:58
Anna: you know, stocking shelves or doing any of that, but my two younger brothers were
2:03
Anna: required to do that. and then, you know, all my uncles, you know, they either
2:08
Anna: had you know gas stations and you know there were mechanics, they were barbers. I
2:14
Anna: was the first person in my in my family to go to college. So that's
2:19
Anna: that's a fun fact about me that I I really rather enjoy and and you
2:25
Anna: know it's it's funny so so it was all about the American dream and And
2:30
Anna: it was, you know, like their small slice of entrepreneurial American dream, you know, in
2:35
Anna: the making, right? So dad had this grocery store next door to a subway in
2:41
Anna: Bridgeport, Connecticut. And he managed that. well he worked there and sold the business until
2:46
Anna: he, you know, and when he was seventy three. And
2:52
Jack: Sure.
3:02
Anna: And then he worked for another eleven years helping cousins and stuff who are who
3:06
Anna: are running grocery stores. So, you know, my work ethic comes from him. you know,
3:10
Anna: because I was the first person to go to college, there was nobody, there were
3:14
Anna: no role models, so to speak, within the family. So I kind of had to
3:19
Anna: do stuff like and figure it out on my own. And and then, you know,
3:23
Anna: once I finished school. And it I was nothing to do with supply chain for
3:27
Anna: my education. I was a psychology major with a philosophy minor. And then all of
3:31
Anna: a sudden that's because I had like these thoughts of of being a psychologist one
3:36
Anna: day, and then I realized how much more schooling and money it was gonna take.
3:40
Anna: So I was like, We need a backup plan here. So I started taking some
3:44
Anna: marketing classes and and wound up having a
3:49
Jack: Yeah.
3:57
Anna: double major in psychology and and business. And then I got my first job. Again,
4:02
Anna: no guidance. Didn't have any like that's a good company to work for. Here's here's
4:07
Anna: how you interview. Had none of it. I figured it out all on my own.
4:12
Anna: And then I worked in plastics manufacturing. So high performance plastics. So think of the
4:17
Anna: competitor to Plexiglass. I worked for a company called Polycast. That was the brand name.
4:23
Jack: Okay.
4:27
Anna: And it was, you know, high performance cells, you know, cell cast acrylic sheeting. And
4:32
Anna: I did that for a number of years. And then I got recruited into Unilever,
4:37
Anna: working on Park Avenue, you know, not far from the Waldorf Astoria. And, you know,
4:42
Anna: so then I was like, I've arrived. And then I realized I was with all
4:47
Anna: the beautiful people with the designer degrees. And here I am, you know, state school.
4:52
Anna: I was like, I would go home on the Metro North train and I'd feel
4:57
Anna: like I had to throw up every single day. And then I realized, you know,
5:02
Anna: I can get along because I've got street smarts, I've got common sense. And then,
5:07
Anna: you know, the career flourished from there. I stayed 23 years at Unilever before I
5:12
Anna: I went on. And I went from like local supply chains to regional supply chains
5:17
Anna: to global supply chains. And that was really cool, right? That was really cool. And
5:22
Anna: then I went To work for a much smaller company. It was I went from
5:27
Anna: like sixty billion, you know, dollars and and down to four hundred million private equity
5:32
Anna: owned, but I was a big fish in a smaller pond there. And then from
5:37
Anna: there, you know, I went on to the food bank and from there I started
5:42
Anna: my own business. But nothing has ever come easy. It's always like the scrappiness that's
5:47
Anna: gotten me to be the successful. So
5:52
Jack: Yeah. Talk about just signing it up and figuring out as you go.
5:57
Anna: You know what? You gotta do that sometimes. You know, you gotta just start. Take
5:58
Anna: the first step.
6:00
Jack: Okay. Yeah, which like I you know, so many entrepreneurs, like I I don't get
6:04
Jack: asked, hey, what's the best entrepreneurial advice out there? But I've heard smarter people than
6:08
Jack: me get asked that. And so often the advice is like, just start. Like it
6:12
Jack: doesn't matter, just do something. Just go like if you have an idea, great. Go
6:16
Jack: sell something for five dollars on Etsy, go do something on Amazon, right? Like, just
6:20
Jack: start And if you're driven enough and you can actually like make it work, then
6:24
Jack: it's gonna feel so satisfying. And you're the you're the model image of that of
6:28
Jack: like, hey, I'm gonna do this college thing. All right, I'm gonna do this job
6:32
Jack: thing. Hey, Park Avenue, let's see what it's all about. And you just keep rising
6:36
Jack: like I love it. This is amazing.
6:40
Anna: I know it was it was really, really amazing like to have worked on Park
6:45
Anna: Avenue, but I didn't work there for very long because then they moved to Greenwich,
6:50
Anna: Connecticut, and then they moved again and to New Jersey and and we had like
6:55
Anna: an R and D center in Trumbull, so in Trumbull, Connecticut. So anyway, it was
7:00
Anna: it was really, really a great career and and now I just like work from
7:05
Anna: my house. So You know, I look forward to like the days when I can
7:10
Anna: meet clients and and go out to a networking event or something, so
7:16
Jack: Right. Right. And I know you're doing you know like some some presentations at colleges
7:19
Jack: and stuff too, not necessarily now that it's the summertime, but it's a huge in
7:23
Jack: person event and y I'm sure you get to shake a lot of hands, meet
7:27
Jack: a lot of people and what are you as a supply chain expert, what are
7:31
Jack: you talking to college students about?
7:35
Anna: my goodness. I don't talk about supply chain really. what's what's amazing because like think
7:35
Anna: about what the supply chain is, right? you know, I often coach my clients and
7:36
Anna: I tell them that when you're in supply chain, that's a pseudonym for I'm a
7:36
Anna: finance manager, right? And because you know what we're doing is we're creating value. So
7:37
Anna: I teach them
7:38
Jack: Okay. Interesting.
8:01
Anna: how you speak the language of the business and you know what supply chain requires,
8:06
Anna: you know, what do I look for when I'm hiring either early career hires, you
8:11
Anna: know, who are being recruited in for the first time, or how do I mentor,
8:16
Anna: you know, mid-career professionals? It's always about the characteristics and the competencies, you know, over
8:21
Anna: the experience and the skills. You know, think about technology, and of course, the supply
8:26
Anna: chain is very much technology driven in terms of platforms, and that's changing all the
8:31
Anna: time. The fundamentals, like so, your fun fact, your fun fact, I mean, we're still
8:36
Anna: doing it, you know, six thousand years later, largely the same way, right? So so
8:41
Anna: the means have changed obviously over the millennium and the centuries, but
8:47
Jack: Right.
8:56
Anna: you know, the the ends to the means don't change, right? So so what I'm
9:01
Anna: teaching them is, you know, I'm talking to them, I'm looking for curiosity, I'm looking
9:07
Anna: for a global mindset, I'm looking for team commitments. I mean, these are the kinds
9:13
Anna: of things you've got to be able to deliver through people. You know, think of
9:19
Anna: the interconnectedness of the supply chain. And, you know, I wrote a book. And and
9:25
Anna: my thesis, it's about anti-fragile supply chains, supply chains that bend but don't break. And
9:31
Anna: and what does that really mean? you know, everybody talks about supply chain resilience. You
9:37
Anna: know, you've got to be able to bounce back from disruption. And my whole thing,
9:43
Anna: and I get asked this all the time, Anna, what what do we do about
9:49
Anna: the tariffs? Anna, what do we do about the Strait of Hermuz and the fact
9:55
Anna: that, you know, diesel fuel just went up 60%? you know, that Key Bridge in
10:00
Anna: Baltimore just collapsed and our automotive supply chain just got disrupted. And my response is:
10:06
Anna: it's the disruption du jour, right? Think about the last six years specifically, right? We've
10:12
Anna: had seven major disruptions in six years. And You know, my thesis is it doesn't
10:18
Anna: matter the disruption. It's the world that we live in. A resilient supply chain, you
10:24
Anna: know, things break and you have to recover and you know, react and and figure
10:30
Anna: out how you're going to recover. An anti-fragile supply chain says, I'm going to thrive
10:36
Anna: despite the disruption. And how do I do that? Well, it's really simple. There's there's
10:42
Anna: no, you know, this isn't brain surgery. It's about having very strong relationships, right? And
10:48
Anna: it's about an ecosystem because think about like what they did, you know, to build
10:54
Anna: the pyramids and and all of that. It's really about people working together to solve
10:59
Anna: problems, right? And you can't recover from the disruptions of the day. Unless you've got
11:05
Anna: strong relationships and you're collaboratively working across the entire value chain. So customers to you,
11:11
Anna: to your suppliers, that is that ecosystem of let's get along and collaborate and figure
11:17
Anna: out how to solve problems. And that's the thesis of the book: stronger relationships, stronger
11:23
Anna: partnerships. And so therefore, I'm looking for those skill sets. you know, that are going
11:29
Anna: to or the competencies that are going to perpetuate that. Now we live in a
11:35
Anna: world of AI, right? So the way I look at it, you know, to create
11:41
Anna: a plan, to create a demand and supply plan in in supply chain, that's a
11:47
Anna: calculation. And so therefore AI can solve that. It's a calculation. So the machine can
11:53
Anna: do it. It's just math.
11:59
Jack: Just math.
12:01
Anna: So therefore, a good planner is not one who can create the plan. A good
12:06
Anna: planner is one that can react quickly to changes in the plan. Right. And that
12:11
Anna: takes having the right relationships, having the right partnerships, having the right internal, you know,
12:17
Anna: internal activities, you know, that are gonna perpetuate that. I'll stop because I can talk
12:22
Anna: forever.
12:28
Jack: No, that's it's a that's why we're here as a podcast. It I like it
12:31
Jack: though, because I was I was talking to somebody recently and one month there was
12:35
Jack: like, you know, we had a bunch of health concerns. The next month, girlfriend's job,
12:39
Jack: something big happened there. And then they had a bunch of home issues. And I
12:42
Jack: was like, all right, I was like I was being receptive, being receptive. All right,
12:46
Jack: cool, cool, cool. Like the you know, get it. Like we'll we'll ease work, you
12:50
Jack: what do we gotta do? And at some point it's like, okay, there's always gonna
12:53
Jack: be something else going on, which In your role, there's always some sort of disruption.
12:57
Jack: There's always some, my goodness, we've never seen this before type of event. At least
13:01
Jack: it feels that way. And so the point is you gotta just kind of roll
13:04
Jack: with it, much like your career. It's just, hey, we're we're doing this and we're
13:08
Jack: gonna figure it out. Tell me about like how do you make a strong relationship
13:12
Jack: in in a supply chain? Cause I I don't I I'm just a dumb data
13:15
Jack: nerd. I don't I don't live in supply chain like. Do you have to have
13:19
Jack: people that like you must have some really scrappy stories of like, Hey, like Bobby
13:23
Jack: can't drop it off, but but Susie's got it, so she's gonna go pick it
13:26
Jack: up there and and bring it over. Like, is that the level of relationship of
13:30
Jack: s people just kinda like seven in for each other?
13:34
Anna: And you know, it's funny because you talked about being a data nerd. that is
13:35
Anna: how I learned to build relationships is f follow the data. data is power, right?
13:37
Anna: And you know, when you have to build rela because what are relationships? They're about
13:39
Anna: give and take. It's about understanding your needs and making sure your needs are met,
13:41
Anna: or understanding your why. So
13:43
Jack: Interesting.
14:03
Anna: That is that is the way I build relationships, right? First of all, it's gonna
14:07
Anna: sound really hokey, but it's the honest to goodness truth, but it's all about integrity.
14:12
Anna: It's about integrity. It's doing what you say you will and following through and and
14:16
Anna: and keeping commitments, right?
14:21
Jack: Isn't it so funny how oft like I got praise in the corporate world because
14:24
Jack: I literally just did my job. And that was it.
14:27
Anna: Yeah. Right. I mean, you show up. You just show up. Okay. It's like think
14:27
Anna: about, you know, think about your personal relationships. You know, what defines you as a
14:28
Anna: good friend, what defines you as a good brother, a good son, a you know,
14:29
Anna: whatever it is. You show up when you need to show up. And same thing
14:30
Anna: here. You know, I remember I was thrown into procurement at Unilever.
14:31
Jack: Yeah, right.
14:56
Anna: And I didn't know the difference between I was I was buying bottles and caps
15:00
Anna: and packaging, plastics packaging for laundry and household cleaning products. That was my first procurement
15:04
Anna: job at Unilever. And I didn't know the difference between a bottle and a cap.
15:08
Anna: And and so, but I had an MBA in finance and I came from the
15:13
Anna: end to end world of planning, right? Supply chain. And at the time, Unilever was
15:17
Anna: trying to change the entire approach to procurement. Like, you know, it's like I want
15:21
Anna: to buy this Yeti cup, you know, go find three bids and go with the
15:26
Anna: cheapest supplier, right? That was traditional buying back in those days. So the approach now
15:30
Anna: was go figure out what this thing is worth. Right? Go find out what the
15:34
Anna: value drivers and the cost drivers are, and then negotiate based on that.
15:39
Jack: Right. Mm.
15:55
Anna: So, like I said, I didn't know the first thing about buying. I didn't know
15:59
Anna: the first thing about what I was buying, bottles, calves, what are they? So, what
16:03
Anna: did I do? I went with the data. What do we buy? Who do we
16:07
Anna: buy it from? How much do we spend on it? So you start out that
16:11
Anna: way. Like so that finance mindset. And then it's like, let's talk to the suppliers.
16:15
Anna: Let's ask them questions. And then, you know, it's like, let's get an invitation to
16:19
Anna: these supplier sites. Then I put on my goggles and I put on my steel-toed
16:23
Anna: shoes and I started walking into factories and you know touring the lines, talking to
16:27
Anna: the operators. What causes you pain? What works? What doesn't work? The line just ch
16:32
Anna: you know stopped. Well, what happened? Why did the line just stop? we had a
16:36
Anna: jam. Well, why did you have a jam? What just happened? So it's like understanding
16:40
Anna: the waste and chasing that and then having conversations with suppliers. About, hey, you know,
16:44
Anna: I want to create win-win relationships. And that's where the hokiness comes in because they
16:48
Anna: don't believe you. It wasn't done. You know, a buyer's job was to beat up
16:52
Anna: on suppliers. And I didn't know how to do that because I'd never done it
16:56
Anna: before. Right? The other thing is I didn't smoke cigars, so I didn't go to
17:00
Anna: cigar bars to negotiate. I didn't play golf, so I couldn't make deals on the
17:04
Anna: golf course.
17:09
Jack: Ha ha ha.
17:20
Anna: Right. So I didn't have I didn't play poker, so you could read everything on
17:25
Anna: my face. So what was going to be my edge? Data and the power of
17:31
Anna: data and the power of truth and the power of partnership. So, you know, started
17:37
Anna: talking about, hey, I'm looking for win-win. If we can like identify the waste and
17:42
Anna: we can solve and improve, you know, ways to take out the The waste from
17:48
Anna: the value chain, then we can split the savings. They didn't believe it. They didn't
17:54
Anna: believe it. And then I made it my business to understand every component of what
17:59
Anna: I was buying. And then looking at what should the cost of this thing be
18:05
Anna: based on reverse engineering, you know, and understanding and doing the research, because that was
18:11
Anna: all I had at the time. And you know, the more I was able to
18:16
Anna: Crack their code, the more they realized, I can't pull one over on her. But
18:22
Anna: then they also saw that I was being fair, I was telling the truth. I
18:28
Anna: told them where they needed to be. And over time, trust builds, right? Because time
18:33
Anna: and time again, you're saying what you'll do and you're following through and doing it.
18:39
Anna: And people appreciate a good, honest. Hard nosed negotiations based on fact, not based on
18:45
Anna: playing games. That's how the relationship started, right? And then it's giving credit where credit
18:50
Anna: is due. Don't take credit that isn't yours. and then deliver through people, have a
18:56
Anna: belief in people. I am smart enough to know that I'm not that smart, right?
19:02
Anna: And and that's the key. But what is my superpower?
19:08
Jack: Yeah.
19:14
Anna: My superpowers, I know where to go to get information. Right? So I'm like, who
19:19
Anna: has this information or who's got, you know, this solution for this problem I have?
19:25
Anna: And I go out and I ask about it. So that is the like my
19:30
Anna: one thing is I didn't have an engineering degree, you know, I, you know, didn't
19:36
Anna: work in automated factories. I worked in unsophisticated factories. So it was really about figuring
19:41
Anna: out who the experts were and bringing them together to solve solutions. So, you know,
19:47
Anna: the power of many versus the power of few or one. And that's how I
19:53
Anna: built my relationship. So, like in my business today, I am terrible at sales and
19:58
Anna: marketing. Everything I get is like through referrals and people I know. And if I
20:04
Anna: had a, you know, develop like a sales pipeline like from cold leads and stuff,
20:09
Anna: I would not have any business. So it's based on, you know, warm connections and
20:15
Anna: warm relationships that come and they know and feel no problem about recommending me because
20:21
Anna: they've worked with me. And and that is how supply chains thrive. Right? It's based
20:26
Anna: on the power of good relationships because, you know, if I like you. And you're
20:32
Anna: having a problem, I'm going to have your back if we work together well. And
20:37
Anna: I'll be like, don't worry, Jack, I've got you. I'm going to supply you. And
20:43
Anna: that's hopefully how it works.
20:49
Jack: Okay. So I I talk a lot about with like other fractional consultants and stuff.
20:52
Jack: I talk about quantifying success, right? So it's not like, hey, my client's happy, which
20:56
Jack: is great, but it's hey, you know, we we met our revenue goal and therefore
21:00
Jack: we've quantified, we beat the goal, right? That's easy. You're talking about almost like quantifying
21:04
Jack: honesty or quantifying integrity of like, hey, like these are the numbers that I can
21:08
Jack: get. Here's the numbers that you're charging me. Let's meet in the middle. Like it's
21:12
Jack: it's not quite that straightforward, I'm sure, but
21:16
Anna: Yeah, well
21:16
Jack: Still just like that quantification allows for such an easier conversation, like who would have
21:22
Jack: thought that the data nerds would be the friendliest to the most popular?
21:28
Anna: And that's the thing, right? you know, in my business, I mean, I've I've come
21:33
Anna: from a long line of corporate supply chain where we had KPI upon KPI. You
21:39
Anna: know, we tracked everything under the sun and quantified everything under the sun. And that's
21:45
Anna: good skill to have. In my business today, I track one thing and one thing
21:51
Anna: only. You know, I track the number of conversations that I have, right? And that
21:57
Anna: is the only KPI I have. How many conversations did I have this week? Because
22:03
Anna: nothing happens without a conversation. And conversations lead to opportunities, and opportunities lead to new
22:09
Anna: business. Right. So getting business is an outcome. You know, it's like I used to
22:14
Anna: tell my kids when they were in school, like, do your homework, and by the
22:20
Anna: time the test comes along, that's just like a That's just a non non-event, okay?
22:26
Anna: It's like you keep up with the homework, then the results are just simply the
22:32
Anna: outcome. So if I keep up with having conversations, the byproduct is I'm going to
22:38
Anna: identify and close opportunities, right? And then always focus on the problem statement, right? Like
22:44
Anna: don't try to solve everything. Like, what's the one problem we're trying to solve? You
22:50
Anna: know, what is the real issue? What is the outcome we desire? And sort of
22:55
Anna: work your way backwards. And that's how I used to negotiate. Here is what I
23:01
Anna: need, and this is why I need it. This has been the mandate that's been
23:07
Anna: given to me. Can you help me get there, please? And you know, so that's
23:13
Anna: the outcome. Now there's probably 20 different ways to get to the same outcome. What's
23:19
Anna: going to be the most attractive to the both of both of us? At the
23:25
Anna: lowest pain, the lowest cost, and so on. So it's really not brain surgery.
23:31
Jack: give me give me the story of starting your own business. Was there was there
23:34
Jack: a lot of scrappiness involved? Do you have any good hustle stories from that?
23:38
Anna: my God, yes. so I started my business on paper in July of twenty sixteen.
23:42
Anna: And that was my exit strategy from Unilever. Like at that point I had kids
23:47
Anna: in high school and I was like, Well, you know, all of us are like
23:52
Anna: milk. We each have an expiry date, you know, so like there's gonna come a
23:57
Anna: time where I'm not gonna work for Unilever anymore. And that Time is probably nearer
24:01
Anna: rather than farther. So I created the LLC. And then my idea was I was
24:06
Anna: gonna leave Unilever and go straight into small startup supply chain consulting. And that was
24:11
Anna: a little bit of the arrogance, you know, that comes with like thinking I know
24:16
Anna: it all. Because what did I know about startup supply chains? I knew nothing about
24:20
Anna: it. Right. I'd worked for this massive global conglomerate, you know, and it's like I
24:25
Anna: knew nothing about it. So the more I researched, the more I realized I am
24:30
Anna: absolutely not ready for any of this. So I just kind of like filed the
24:35
Anna: LLC away and and kind of started networking in the other direction so that when
24:39
Anna: the time came, I would have an opportunity. And that's that's what happened. I Left
24:44
Anna: Unilever on a Friday. I went to work for the next company on a Monday.
24:49
Anna: And and then I knew that was gonna be a short gig, right? Because it
24:54
Anna: was a private equity owned company and they were like fur further into the ownership,
24:58
Anna: which meant they're gonna sell soon. So I worked there for two years, and then
25:03
Anna: I get my package and I'm happy and I'm like, I probably have one more
25:08
Anna: big role in me. Guess when that was? That was in the in the winter
25:13
Anna: of twenty twenty. So Q1, right? It was Q1. And I'm having tons of conversations
25:17
Anna: with people and I'm talking about opportunities. And then all of a sudden the shutdown
25:22
Anna: happened, the COVID shutdown, and every opportunity just dried up. Dried up. And I was
25:27
Anna: like, my gosh, I'm
25:32
Jack: Perfect.
25:54
Anna: facing unemployment for the first time in my entire career. And but what happened was
25:58
Anna: the work didn't go away. It's just people were afraid to hire because of the
26:03
Anna: unknown. We didn't know what this thing called COVID was going to be doing. So
26:08
Anna: I had these people that I would talk to say, you know, we've got this
26:13
Anna: one little problem. Would you consult for six to eight weeks? I'm like, yes, I
26:17
Anna: can do that. So in June of 2020, I put up a website and I
26:22
Anna: came out as a consultant. Like here I am. But fear. I had fear. I
26:27
Anna: was afraid to commit and go all in because I was afraid of not having
26:32
Anna: a steady paycheck. And I had two kids that are that are about to like
26:36
Anna: go into university and I didn't know if if I was going to be able
26:41
Anna: to make it happen. So I kind of caved a little bit. Kept the business
26:46
Anna: as a side hustle, and I took the job at the food bank in the
26:51
Anna: middle, in the middle of COVID, probably the hardest, toughest job I've ever had. And
26:55
Anna: I underestimated how tough it would be. so I did that for about a year
27:00
Anna: and a half, and I was literally like physically getting sick because of the stress.
27:05
Anna: I was commuting by car four hours a day, going to the South Bronx. You
27:10
Anna: know, I'd have two people in the warehouse come down with COVID.
27:15
Jack: jee.
27:19
Anna: And suddenly half my warehouse team is quarantined. It it was a nightmare. So I
27:22
Anna: literally physically got sick. Like I went for an annual physical and my numbers were
27:25
Anna: off the chart, not in a good way. Right. And so I quit, I quit
27:28
Anna: my job and I decided I was gonna commit to this side hustle that I
27:31
Anna: had created, right? And I was just gonna sort of go all in. And that
27:34
Anna: was, you know, in in in January of twenty twenty two. And I haven't looked
27:37
Anna: back since. Right. Like I said, I had gotten I had gotten the guts to
27:40
Anna: do it because I had like two small clients that were my side hustle. And
27:43
Anna: then I said, you know what, I'm just gonna go all in. And then I
27:46
Anna: started making phone calls and having conversations. And I got my first big client, I
27:49
Anna: was prepared to go eighteen months without any income.
27:53
Jack: Okay.
28:15
Anna: And and that was like my financial planner telling me you can go longer. And
28:20
Anna: I was no, I'm gonna be conservative. But I got my first major client two
28:25
Anna: months later. I closed, you know, my first big deal. And then a couple of
28:30
Anna: months later, I got my longest tenured client. They've been with me like almost since
28:35
Anna: the beginning. Right. And and so that's that's how my business started. Like one thing
28:41
Anna: started to lead, you know, into another thing. I work with a team of partners,
28:46
Anna: you know, that you know, we deliver solutions together. I do a lot of advisory
28:51
Anna: and coaching, so I do that on my own. And that's that's the secret of
28:56
Anna: starting my own business. I wish I had done it sooner, but you know, I
29:01
Anna: always believe that things happen for a reason. So
29:07
Jack: I feel yeah. How did how did those clients come about? There were existing relationships
29:10
Jack: or there were random that knocked on your door?
29:13
Anna: all existing relationships like hey here's what I'm doing now this is what I've been
29:15
Anna: doing and it's like really you know okay this is great I want you to
29:18
Anna: talk to so and so my first major client was my former CEO the guy
29:21
Anna: that I worked for right after Unilever so he created a job for me as
29:23
Anna: VP of supply chain and procurement this was arcade beauty worked that was the private
29:26
Anna: equity firm he had left
29:29
Jack: nice.
29:42
Anna: To go lead another company, a food packaging manufacturer. And I was talking to him,
29:47
Anna: hey Peter, you know, this is what I'm doing now. And he was like, my
29:53
Anna: God, I want you to meet Tim, my my my COO. Literally, like walked his
29:58
Anna: laptop to his COO's office, and within two weeks, we closed that first deal. And
30:04
Anna: that was regarding inventory, like they had a serious inventory issue. And we needed to
30:10
Anna: go in and and fix a few things. And we were there for 12 months.
30:15
Anna: So it was everything is through relationships and existing partnerships. And you know, Peter, you
30:21
Anna: know, was one of my biggest fans and advocates. So he would always give me
30:27
Anna: references. So he hired me on his leadership team. He hired me as as as
30:32
Anna: a client as a consultant. He, you know, advocated for me as a reference for
30:38
Anna: other clients. So it's all about those relationships, right? And and you know, the rest
30:44
Anna: is similar. The rest is similar stories of people that know me and they're like,
30:49
Anna: Hey, you know, I think you can help this so and so. Why don't you
30:55
Anna: give them a call? So
31:01
Jack: Did you have any when you're starting, maybe in the first month or so and
31:05
Jack: you're you're kinda going all in and you're maybe nervous, maybe like, all right, I
31:09
Jack: I said eighteen months, but I'd rather get something now. Like, are you doing anything
31:13
Jack: like ramen noodle dinners? Like are you cutting back? Like, did you have to do
31:17
Jack: anything at home?
31:21
Anna: No. And and you know what? That is That is luck, right? And it's also
31:25
Anna: a little bit of, you know, longevity and where I was. So, you know, by
31:30
Anna: that point I was, you know, well into my fifties and and you know, we
31:35
Anna: had done well, right? Like we had done well working for Unilever is a very
31:40
Anna: nice gig. So that wasn't the case. but certainly entrepreneurial work is is very up
31:45
Anna: and down. So my first year was like this phenomenal year. And of course, like
31:49
Anna: I was like, why didn't I do this sooner? Like this is fantastic. Every year
31:54
Anna: is gonna be this good. So it was a phenomenal year. In fact, that year
31:59
Anna: is still my my best year in business, right? So I've been in business five
32:04
Anna: years.
32:09
Jack: Ha ha
32:26
Anna: that first year was small because we were just starting out and it was a
32:29
Anna: side gig. The first full time year where I like went all in was still
32:32
Anna: my best year. 2024 came in almost as high. And the years in between, so
32:36
Anna: 23, like you know, revenue dipped by by 35%. But I'm I personally made more
32:39
Anna: money because I wasn't paying partners. I did a lot of the delivery and execution
32:42
Anna: on my own. I I worked with fewer 1099s. And then and then last year
32:46
Anna: was a tough year. But I so I am an employee of my own company
32:49
Anna: and I get a W-2. I have collected a really nice salary, you know, every
32:52
Anna: year. So do I make, you know, every year is it?
32:56
Jack: Okay.
33:22
Anna: Unilever type money or even arcade beauty type money, not every year, but it's okay.
33:25
Anna: You know, it's okay. At this stage, I don't need that much. but you know,
33:29
Anna: I mean, certainly we've been extremely profitable every single year. So it's a question now
33:33
Anna: of where do I want to take it? Do I wanna expand? Do I wanna
33:37
Anna: bring on you know more partners?
33:41
Jack: Nice.
33:51
Anna: So really it's it's you know, do I want to go beyond what I can
33:56
Anna: personally deliver with a small team or do I want to expand? And that's the
34:01
Anna: question of the day for me. Some days I feel like really motivated to expand
34:06
Anna: and some days I'm like, nah. So it depends on my mood. But it, you
34:11
Anna: know, I really enjoy what I do because I work with clients that I choose
34:16
Anna: to work with. and that I would pick any day of the year I would
34:21
Anna: pick working with them. So so that helps. Because if I worked with a bunch
34:26
Anna: of idiots, then it wouldn't be so much fun doing this. So
34:32
Jack: Right. Right. That is the beauty of entrepreneurship. all right, let me hit you with
34:33
Jack: some scrappy verse sophisticated lightning round questions. First one, fun one. If your dog comes
34:34
Jack: up in the background of a Zoom call, do you say, I'm so sorry, or
34:35
Jack: do you introduce him as like the director of operations?
34:36
Anna: Yeah. Yeah, I usually call him my intern. He just came up and he's sitting
34:44
Anna: over there. But no, I mean he is a huge, wonderful guy. So yeah, I
34:53
Anna: introduce him as my intern.
35:02
Jack: Okay, very nice. Did you have a lemonade stand as a kid? Okay.
35:06
Anna: Absolutely. Probably my first time as an entrepreneur.
35:11
Jack: Okay. did you sell any candy at school? Okay. All right, hitting him out of
35:12
Jack: the park. how were the grades in school and in the high s what was
35:13
Jack: the high school grade? Do you remember?
35:15
Anna: Yes, I sure did. Yeah, so I was the dumbest of the smart kids. so
35:17
Anna: I did well in school. and I, you know, I was just sharing with my
35:19
Anna: kids. My one son is a physicist. I got one C in senior year of
35:22
Anna: high school in physics. Physics just like that was the hardest I've ever had to
35:24
Anna: work for a C. So generally speaking, I was a good student.
35:27
Jack: Okay. Yeah. Okay, okay. business wise, have you ever gotten a review from a family
35:41
Jack: member?
35:55
Anna: No.
35:56
Jack: Okay. Okay. Have you had to play the credit card timing game where you wait
36:00
Jack: till tomorrow to charge something 'cause that's next month's statement.
36:04
Anna: I did that all the time. So that was like in my twenties were big
36:04
Anna: learning experience. Again, my parents never even had a credit card. They paid cash with
36:04
Anna: everything, that immigrant mentality. so I used to be like, I don't have money, I
36:05
Anna: can't go on vacation. Well, I've got a credit card, let me just charge it.
36:05
Anna: And that was a very painful lesson that took a long time to learn. So
36:05
Anna: I paid off all my credit cards by the time I was 32.
36:06
Jack: Yeah. Okay. Okay, okay, nice. what's what's your airport personality? Are you getting there two
36:18
Jack: hours earlier, are you hitting the lounge, grabbing a cocktail? What do you do pre
36:31
Jack: flight?
36:44
Anna: I live. I live for getting there early and hitting the lounge. You know, I
36:45
Anna: got a platinum an Amex platinum card just so I can get there early and
36:47
Anna: hit the lounge.
36:49
Jack: Okay. Okay. are you do you travel a lot for work? Are you enough where
36:56
Jack: you're flying up front for most flights?
37:04
Anna: no, I don't do that anymore. I did travel a lot in my corporate career.
37:09
Anna: But now, in my in my business I don't have to travel that much. I
37:14
Anna: probably get out like maybe five or six times a year on you know, to
37:19
Anna: an airport. So it's not a lot by any stretch. so yeah.
37:25
Jack: Okay. If somebody's trying to book a meeting with you, are you sending a calendar
37:27
Jack: link or just saying, Hey, like shoot me a text, I'm free Thursday afternoon? Okay.
37:30
Jack: Okay.
37:33
Anna: Well both. It depends on who it is. A lot of like my close colleagues
37:37
Anna: were were texting and I'm like, Hey, wanna meet, you know, for this time. But
37:41
Anna: then I do have a calendar and I usually offer that up quite a bit.
37:45
Anna: It really facilitates scheduling quite nicely.
37:50
Jack: It does. It does. All right. Take me inside the office a little bit. how
37:53
Jack: many monitors do you use on your desk?
37:56
Anna: Okay, so I've got two big ones. I've got like two 24 inch monitors right
38:01
Anna: now. And then sometimes I put up the laptop and you know and I use
38:06
Anna: that as a third one. And then I've got like a standing desk right here.
38:11
Anna: So I've got a monitor and a whole setup at the standing desk. Yeah.
38:17
Jack: Okay, wow. Are all these monitors the same make and model?
38:22
Anna: these two are HP yeah, they're all all three are HPs.
38:25
Jack: Wow. Okay. Okay. This is this is getting some sophistication. Any ridiculous office lighting. We've
38:28
Jack: got a a lamp that just doesn't belong there, but it helps with the view
38:31
Jack: at all. Anything like that?
38:35
Anna: Yeah, I I do. Like my lighting in here is not very good. So I've
38:37
Anna: got like a desk clamp here. I've got this like LED thing right behind me.
38:39
Anna: I got this thing, which is it's it's nice, it like shines down. And then
38:41
Anna: I've got like over here, I've got like one of those ring cameras. well not
38:43
Anna: ring camera, ring light that's like right here that that helps with lighting a lot.
38:45
Anna: So yeah, I got all kinds of lighting stuff.
38:47
Jack: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. how many business cards are currently on the desk?
39:10
Anna: Like mine or somebody else's? Okay, so I've got like a bunch of mine. I've
39:10
Anna: got this app where I can take a photo of the card and it automatically
39:11
Anna: generates the information and uploads into contacts. So I don't I really don't like business
39:11
Anna: cards. I'm very much let's use our phone and we share contact information that way.
39:12
Jack: Anybody's Okay. Okay, okay, I'm in the same boat. I like it. all right, take
39:24
Jack: me inside the the computer a little bit. how many emails on red is too
39:37
Jack: many?
39:50
Anna: Oof. I'm terrible. I I'm absolutely terrible. That is so right now I have sixteen
39:57
Anna: hundred unread emails. But a lot of those, you know, I I I've I'm really
40:05
Anna: good about filtering my emails and I've got rules and and I've got all kinds
40:13
Anna: of things. So important emails always get attention.
40:21
Jack: Okay, okay, fair enough, fair enough. any any any like subject line emails where there's
40:27
Jack: nothing in the body and you just write the entire email on the subject line?
40:34
Anna: That's not me. You know, I get that a lot. I don't do that. I
40:38
Anna: will ask a question in the line and then I'll go in the body and
40:42
Anna: I'll say, looking forward to hearing from you, Anna. You know, so I don't just
40:46
Anna: do that.
40:50
Jack: Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay. how many icons are on your desktop screen?
40:57
Anna: on my desktop, not many. I'm not one for cluttering my desktop either. So I
40:57
Anna: just have like the basics. yeah, I don't nothing is ever kept in nothing is
40:58
Anna: ever kept in, you know, on the desktop. It's all in my one drive.
40:59
Jack: Okay. Okay, all right. This is this is fairly sophisticated and I don't know. How
41:09
Jack: do you organize your calendar?
41:19
Anna: Yeah. my calendar is all color coded. It's color coded depending on, you know, like
41:21
Anna: I've got a color code for everything. I got color codes for clients, I got
41:23
Anna: color code for for non meeting time, for personal time. I've got all kinds of
41:25
Anna: color coding. And I use Outlook. Yeah.
41:27
Jack: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. any Chrome plugins that you use religiously?
41:50
Anna: all the time. I'm a huge Chrome user and yeah I've got tons of extend
41:54
Anna: you know extensions plugins
41:58
Jack: What's one that you use the most?
42:03
Anna: let's see the ones that I use the most are Well, Adobe, Microsoft Editor. I've
42:07
Anna: got so I use a lot less than I used to. I've got my my
42:11
Anna: my security thing is called ESet. That's my yeah. So I use that all the
42:16
Anna: time. I've got a Zoom Chrome extension. but I use a lot of apps, like,
42:20
Anna: you know.
42:25
Jack: Right.
42:37
Anna: Like the chat GPT app, the Claude app. I use apps, you know, I use
42:38
Anna: the Fireflies app. I don't do a lot of stuff in the in the browser
42:39
Anna: if I can download the app. Yeah.
42:41
Jack: Okay. Gotcha. Yep, I'm the same way. Okay. All right. Maybe last one here. there's
42:47
Jack: a lot going on in your office. You got a bunch of books and stuff.
42:53
Jack: What is the most unique thing in your office? Or one of the most unique
42:59
Jack: things? You can say your dog.
43:06
Anna: Yeah, my my dog, but you know, I have had these, you know, I have
43:09
Anna: had these. These are my yin and yang. I just dropped it. Yeah, they they're
43:13
Anna: balls and I will hold I have had these for 30 years and I've carried
43:16
Anna: them. They they just I just like twiddle them around and they really help.
43:20
Jack: and they're balls, they roll. Okay. What are they?
43:35
Anna: Like when I'm especially when I'm thinking. And then the other thing I have is
43:36
Anna: I've got a basket. I'm really about like fidget toys because especially when I'm doing
43:38
Anna: analysis. So I've got a whole basket. Look at this. Look, I got this thing
43:40
Anna: called courage, because it takes courage to be in my business. This is the supply
43:41
Anna: chain. I like fiddle with it all the time. It's the supply chain. I've got
43:41
Anna: chain. I like fiddle with it all the time. It's the supply chain. I've got
43:43
Anna: all kinds of stress balls.
43:45
Jack: Yeah. nice. Okay, nice.
44:04
Anna: And I've got like these types of things. Like I play with all this stuff.
44:04
Anna: And then when people come up to visit, and it's usually friends, when people come
44:05
Anna: up to visit, they love to just sit in front of my desk and play
44:05
Anna: with my toys. So yeah. So there you go.
44:06
Jack: Yeah. There you go. I love it. Okay. It's great. I'm very similar. I always
44:09
Jack: need something in my hands that I've got. For the for the audio only listener,
44:13
Jack: join join us on YouTube and you get to see all these things. But I've
44:17
Jack: always got some similar stuff. I've got this is like a purple mattress, if you
44:20
Jack: know from like like a they just give you this tiny little squishy thing and
44:24
Jack: it's it's the mini version of the mattress pretty fun. okay, I love it. Thank
44:28
Jack: you for the tour of the office. all right, wrapping up here, land the plane.
44:32
Anna: huh. Yeah.
44:49
Jack: hundred percent scrappy. I mean let's call it what it is. Let's call it spade
44:49
Jack: a spade. A hundred percent scrappy. what are you looking forward to? Anything you want
44:50
Jack: to promote? anything coming up that you want the folks out there to know about?
44:51
Anna: Ha ha. this is great. Yes, you know, what I'm looking forward to, and this
44:57
Anna: has been like you know, giving birth to a nice idea. one of my partners
45:03
Anna: is a company called Connect House. They specialize in procurement events, and we're going to
45:09
Anna: be doing a direct materials event in October in Chicago, focused on direct materials and
45:15
Anna: how we treat it. Direct materials are obviously things that go into the product. And
45:22
Anna: that is different than buying, you know, software or buying services and and that sort
45:28
Anna: of thing. So I've I've been an advisor, you know, to shaping this event. And
45:34
Anna: I'm really looking forward to speaking at it. But I'm gonna have a couple of
45:40
Anna: gigs and engagements in the summer. These will be smaller networking events. I run I
45:46
Anna: run a community of practitioners in supply chain and procurement. And it's called it's an
45:53
Anna: it's a virtual happy hour that we do the fourth Wednesday of every month. It's
45:59
Anna: called From Source to Shelf. And and we do occasional in-person happy hours. So there's
46:05
Anna: going to be a New York event coming up. But yeah, check us out. Follow
46:11
Anna: me on LinkedIn and I usually post all the activities and events there. All right.
46:18
Jack: Perfect. Perfect. Okay. Awesome. Anna, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate
46:18
Jack: it.
46:23
Anna: it's my pleasure. Thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun.
46:27
Jack: Definitely. Stay data driven, everybody.
46:29
Anna: All right.