Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / No, Anora is Not a Good Film About Sex Workers (Ft. Pretty Woman & Belle de Jour)

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No, Anora is Not a Good Film About Sex Workers (Ft. Pretty Woman & Belle de Jour) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

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They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid Telling
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us to hush, dim our historical light But darlings,
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we're the Harpies, sharp and keen Unveiling the
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truth behind the silver screen History Harpies
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hear us roar Welcome to History Harpies, episode
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one. Christine and I are professional historians.
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We've both been teaching for about two decades
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at a research university. We've both written
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several books, but we love popular culture and
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we decided it was about time to share our ideas
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with the world. Because we think we have a very
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particular set of skills, which is that we both
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love, as Lauren says, popular culture of the
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present, but we also study the past. And so we
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have a good ability, we think, to bring these
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two things together. Christina and I have been
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friends for some time, and we know each other
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in several different contexts, and we have a
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very, very special bond. And it is unusual, in
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my experience, to find somebody who understands
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you as a mom, understands you as a scholar, and
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also understands you as a fellow lover of all
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things popular culture. So after many, many years
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talking about these things, we decided to come
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together and as enthusiastic Gen Xers put out
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a podcast for not only our peers and our colleagues
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and our friends, but also for just the general
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population of pop culture and history lovers.
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Because Lauren and I, like a lot of Gen Xers
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out there, we spent a lot of time watching television
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as kids, as teenagers, and then it just never
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stopped. And we both love movies. We both love
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fashion. We both love music. And so And I know
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this might be a surprise to some of you out there,
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but it's not always the case that professors
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and professors of history really enjoy those
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kinds of things or try to keep up with what's
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been going on. So Christine, for our listeners,
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how would you differentiate us from the many,
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many wonderful pop culture podcasts out there
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that critique pop culture, that do episodic reviews
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and the like. That's a great question. And of
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course, we love so many sites and podcasts, web
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pages that talk about recaps of TV that talk
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about fashion and music. But what we like to
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think that we can do that is different, that
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is unique, is that we can kind of fill in some
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of the blanks of things that have happened in
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the past. And one of the things that we talk
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a lot about a lot, I just repeated a lot, is
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We like to think about things that are happening
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now and how it is that they are flavored by the
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past or that something in the past might help
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us to understand or appreciate a little bit more
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some of the pop culture going on now. So when
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Christine and I were thinking about names for
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this podcast, we landed on History Harpies and
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I'm going to turn it over to Christine as our
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medievalist and somebody who has a unique explanation
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skill set of talking about etymology to tell
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us more about the origin of the harpy. We might
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think of harping on things as related to the
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word harpy, and basically harpies are what we
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call a hybrid creature that is something that
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is part one thing and part another. And in the
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There are lots of hybrid creatures running around.
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The one that is probably most familiar to people
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is the sphinx in Egypt, the body of a lion and
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the head of a man. And a harpy in the ancient
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world was the body of a bird and the head of
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a woman. kind of screechy. And there's a myth
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where harpies are sort of gathered around a guy
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who was simply trying to eat his dinner and the
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harpies keep stealing his food. And now we tend
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to think of harpies as Lauren, what's the word
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I'm thinking of? Total bitches. Total bitches
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who are harping on things who are being again
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sort of screechy and opinionated and want to
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let you know exactly what they think. And many
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think should really just shut up. So we are not
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going to shut up. We are going to continue to
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harp. But even more importantly, analyze and
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debate and critique the things that we love.
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And if that is harping to some, then so be it.
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And again, it is going to be harping with a flavor
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of the past because we always like to think Has
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this been done before? Is this familiar? And
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in fact, one of the ideas for this podcast is
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that Christine and I often watch many, many films,
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television shows, other things together. But
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we come away thinking. We liked it or we didn't
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like it, but it really reminds us of this other
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thing that is maybe 30 or 40 years older. And
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then we see something in media that will say,
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wow, this was brand new. Wow, this was so progressive.
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Wow, this was the first time that this has ever
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been done. Ever. And in fact, that is rarely
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the case. It is rarely the case. So our format
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is to discuss a current text in popular culture,
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current content, but then to situate it within
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an older. an older piece of art, an older film,
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an older piece of fashion, an older television
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show, and to compare the two and think about
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the ways in which certain depictions and ideas
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have changed. Because I think one of the things
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that both Lauren and I have experienced, both
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with our own kids, but then also definitely with
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our students, is when we will talk about something
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that is older, again, a movie, a piece of music,
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with our students and they try it out and they're
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like, oh my god. Thank you. That was so fantastic.
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I loved it. And so basically a big part of our
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podcast is that Lauren and I want to spread the
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love. Spread the love. Spread the love of the
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past of pop culture. And again, as GenX folks,
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we... Although we might not think of some of
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our products as, quote, old. They will be old
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to some of our listeners, no doubt. And many
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of the texts that we are going to talk about
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are beloved texts from our childhood or beloved
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texts of our... parents or grandparents or those
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sorts of things that we grew up with hearing
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about. And so there's a lot of lineage. There's
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a lot of sort of, you know, ancestral collectivity.
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We are reaching into the dawn of time to talk
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about spike heels. Right. Exactly. All right.
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So before we start on our segment, which today
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will be on sex work films, just wanted to touch
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base with you, Christine. How has your week been
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going? My week has been going okay. It is a little
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bit of an adjustment after spring break, as you
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know, and I am managing my two teenagers as usual.
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How about you? My week has been... both challenging
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and rewarding. My son, my middle son accepted
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admission at a college, which was an incredibly
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stressful process, which any listener who has
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been through that will know. And now we get to
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embark upon having two children in college, which
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is truly excellent. And I am excited about that,
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but also ready for all the pre -college stress
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that is to come. And then you get to do it all
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over again. All over again. Yes, yes. So for
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those of you who are familiar with Anora, you
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can maybe fast -forward through some of this.
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Tune it out. Tune it out. Enora has lingered
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in the news for many, many reasons, not just
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for when it came out as a film and the sort of
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usual film criticism or reception it received,
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but then the Oscar season, the aftermath, and
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a lot of the controversy surrounding the film,
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some of which had nothing to do with the film
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content. And, Christine, what did we think of
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Enora when we saw it? I hate to say it and but
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this is a good way to begin our discussion today
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about sex worker films. We did not like an aura.
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We thought an aura was ridiculous and i hate
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to say it just plain bad. And i'm sorry it just
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it just did and it really i really was a waste
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of time and i would like my however long that
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thing was two hours back. I think we fast -forwarded
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maybe through some of the lap dances though,
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don't you think so? We may have. So for those
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of you who have not seen Anora, just to give
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a really quick recap, Anora is about a young
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woman sex worker in brooklyn i believe it's brighton
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beach if i remember correctly and she works at
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a strip club and she begins a relationship with
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the son of a russian oligarch the sun's name
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is evan and spoiler alert after a very whirlwind
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romance they marry. And the choice of them to
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get married is not looked upon particularly favorably
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by his parents, who send a few minions, I think
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is really the only word we can use. Henchmen.
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Henchmen, tufts, to come and break up this brand
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new relationship. And so it is a movie that actually
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covers, I would say, only a few days, actually,
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in Inora's life. Again, there is very much a
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kind of whirlwind quality to the movie. And we
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won't tell you exactly how it ends, but we had
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very many thoughts about Anora. And actually,
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I'm going to ask Lauren a question to keep on.
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Do we know why Anora, the character, is involved
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in sex work? We do not. We do not know why she's
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involved in sex work. The thing we do know is
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that she's been doing Strip club work for a while
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now. She has several customers several regulars.
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She's comfortable in her position She's somewhat
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of a mentor to some of the other girls But we
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do not know why she has chosen this of necessity
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for financial security We have absolutely no
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idea why So this is something that is not asked
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or answered in the film and again leads to even
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more questions as her personal journey continues
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with Yvonne. And one of the reasons why this
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seems to be important is because it's hard to
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understand to what extent we're supposed to understand
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her story as a fairy tale. Right to what extent
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she is in a sort of extreme circumstances in
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which she is in poverty we do see her apartment
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that she lives in with her sister. It is very
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clear that she does want the luxury that attends
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to this very very wealthy young man and her relationship
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and her eventual marriage with him but. It isn't
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really clear right if this relationship is saving
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her from anything that is not a cinderella story
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necessarily would you agree with that i would
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agree with that and. The experiences that she
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has with yvonne in new york and then later in
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vegas. are certainly exceptional in that he is
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so wealthy. He has a private plane. He is treating
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her and her friends and his friends to whatever
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they want. Clubs, jewelry, drinks, drugs, all
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of it. But we don't know even whether she's had
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an experience like this before with another wealthy
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patron or anything like this. His house, which
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is his parents' house, is pretty incredible.
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and modern, and certainly the house of someone
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of incredible means. And she enjoys being there,
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but we do not know whether this is, again, a
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way of lifting her out of poverty, lifting her
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family out of poverty. The scene with her sister
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is brief and difficult to determine what the
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content of that relationship is. So we do not.
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fully understand Anora's own status. And we do
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know she is absolutely not a high -class courtesan,
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right? This is not a high -class escort. She's
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working in a fairly skeevy strip club. But nevertheless,
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there's all indications that she's making a fair
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amount of money doing so. We see her do many
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lap dances, perhaps too many, which we can talk
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about in a minute. And she does begin to escort,
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spend time outside of the club with Yvonne. And
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perhaps she has done this in the past, although
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we don't see it. So there is a real confusion
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about her sort of socioeconomic status, about
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why she's doing it in the first place. Does she
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ever intend to stop? What pushed her into it?
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And I guess the next question that attaches to
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that. Do we think that she is genuinely in love
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with Yvonne? Again, in terms of this being a
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fairy tale, a romance story, a Cinderella story,
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what sense do we have of her emotions? We have
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none. None. None, I think, is the answer to my
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own question. None because while we know that
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she is taken with... The material surroundings
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of if on we do not know very much about his own
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personality we do not we do not get a lot of
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texture in the exchanges between them. We do
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not see the sex between them as particularly
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intimate or romantic or even connected in in
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a sense that's. fulfilling to the viewer, or
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at least these two viewers. So it is, again,
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puzzling why the film would be seen by so many
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critics as humane and deep in analysis and deep
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in understanding of this young woman, while really
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she could be a cocktail waitress she could be
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working at McDonald's right she could be doing
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kind of anything and meet this guy and the same
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outcome would it would be exactly the same yeah
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it would be exactly and that leads to really
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what was one of my biggest complaints about anora.
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And it fit to me within a bigger paradigm where
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things that can be shopped as sex positive, right,
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things that can be shopped in a more narrow way
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as thoughtful, generous depictions of sex work,
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they can just start to look exploitative. And
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in the sense that we see so much New today there
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are so many explicit sex scenes and sex scenes
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that are as you say lauren that are not necessarily
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intimate and again i'm not talking we're not.
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We're not talking about needing to see the two
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of them rolling in the ocean with violins, right?
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That's not what we're talking about. But the
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sex scenes are repetitive, they're unimaginative.
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They're mechanistic. They're undifferentiated.
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Same old, same old. They are the same old, same
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old lap dances over and over again. Over and
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over. And her performance is for him, even in
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a more intimate setting. really mirror the lap
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dances she has given other customers and him
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in the strip club. So there's no sense that she
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has any kind of special connection to him other
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than allowing him to, you know, have sex with
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her and engaging in a full on escort relationship
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rather than just being a stripper. But there's
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nothing about it that would give you any sense
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either that he is a more sensitive guy or that
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she is a more sensitive gal. Well, but this then
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is, and we brought up before the issue that she
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really, in terms of the film, she could be doing
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any low paying job, right? She could be working
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at fast food, whatever. And then it simply becomes
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an issue where we seem to be seeing her in with
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a great deal of of sexually explicit content
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simply because someone wants to see her wants
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to depict this over and over again. And because
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there is so much a tone of the film that she
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is being potentially rescued from sex work it's
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not a film that defend sex work in that way it
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simply isn't we are supposed to think it is a
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good thing that she is marrying this in. incredibly
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wealthy young man who then will take her away
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from all of this. But by the same token, that
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juxtaposed with how many lap dances we see, how
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many sex scenes there are. I simply cycle back
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over and over that the reason this is a film
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about a sex worker is not to make a profound
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social statement about sex work. It is simply
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an excuse to show tits, to show sexually explicit
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scenes because someone Who knows who someone
19:06
has an idea in their head that they want to see
19:11
this over and over in what to me really is an
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exploitative way. And interestingly the film
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knows lots of controversy about the lack of an
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intimate intimacy coordinator. The idea that
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well you know in quote real life sex workers
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don't have intimacy coordinators and so we get
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a real view of sex work. But I would push back
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and say that sex work can have all kinds of flavor,
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can have all kinds of diverse interpretations,
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can have all kinds of power dynamics, and can
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be expressive in a multitude of ways that this
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film just erases because it is so repetitive.
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and it is so static on the level of depicting
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sexuality, which is an irony of the film that
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it is supposed to be representative of so much
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subtlety and humanity. Yes and that's and that
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is what takes me back to the idea that we are
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seeing someone's fantasy. Right we're not seeing
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an interrogation of the working class we're not
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seeing an interrogation as you say of different
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modes of sex work there's got no distinct right
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we're seeing a sort of enhanced version of the
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girlfriend experience but it's not that because
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we are intended to think. I believe that it is
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a good thing that she is with this man and so.
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And the other thing we probably should point
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out before we move on and maybe talk about Pretty
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Woman for a minute is... Lauren and I were both
20:45
so amazed that this won the Oscar for best original
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screenplay. And actually while we watched the
20:53
film, which we did together, we kept joking that
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the announcement of the nominations for best
21:00
original screenplay would have to focus on Enora
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just saying, fuck you over and over and over
21:05
again. But clearly Lauren, we were wrong and
21:07
the Academy voters really responded to fuck you,
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no fuck you too. Fuck you. Fuck you asshole.
21:14
Get your fucking hands off me. That's the gist
21:18
of Enora and While I'm certainly not in any way
21:24
approved or have any problem with You know this
21:29
kind of language use it all the time myself I
21:33
don't understand why they couldn't have had a
21:36
few conversations that did not just include a
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string of obscenities over and over and over
21:44
again, with no description of what anyone was
21:48
talking about. And the other thing is that while
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Yvonne and Enora are saying fuck you to each
21:56
other, or you fucking bitch, or Enora says to
22:00
her sex work colleagues, you jealous sluts, or
22:04
whatever, there are no other characters in this
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film that have a sort of straight dialogue. It's
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the henchmen come back with, fuck you, and everyone
22:16
just... It is a universal experience. Even the
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Russian oligarch parents, fuck you, that fucking
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bitch, why did he marry her? I don't know why
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no one can speak to one another in a way that,
22:29
at least for the audience, would give them a
22:32
little bit more of a sense of what's going on.
22:37
That is what took away many of the nuances of
22:43
the relationships between Enora and the various
22:46
people she's triangulating between is that the
22:50
monotony of the dialogue detracted from the diversity
22:57
of the relationships. Well and i think a good
23:00
comparison and especially in defense of the idea
23:03
that we're approved to don't wanna hear fuck
23:05
you or look at sex scenes or whatever i think
23:07
a good comparison is say the oscar that quentin
23:11
tarantino and roger avery won for best original
23:15
screenplay for pulp fiction obviously a film
23:18
that has fuck very often in it. And to me, again,
23:23
a brilliant screenplay. And certainly, I think
23:25
Tarantino generally is such a good example of
23:27
this, where you can have unbelievably explicit
23:31
language. And it can be brilliant with characterization
23:34
and with scene setting. And we saw none of that
23:38
in Enora. Just over and over again is such a
23:41
repetitive movie. Agreed. So I think if we were
23:46
to think about Enora, Question of is she the
23:51
hooker with a heart of gold? That is a depiction
23:54
in film that has long carried on through the
23:58
20th 20 forever forever and we can think of Elizabeth
24:03
shoe in leaving Las Vegas, but because this comparison
24:06
has come up in the press much much more we can
24:09
think of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman mm -hmm
24:13
and the differences between Julia Roberts and
24:17
Mickey Madison, Mikey Madison in Enora. So is
24:25
Enora a hooker with a heart of gold? I think
24:29
that's a good question and I think our answer
24:31
has to be no, right? And that she's not the hooker
24:37
who is... Being charitable right the horse you
24:40
know saving orphans from burning buildings in
24:42
a way that we have seen in would see in much
24:44
older films right making a noble sacrifice for
24:47
her lover something right we don't see anything
24:49
like that and in fact right the opposite is true
24:52
she understands that this marriage is incredibly
24:55
difficult for her her now in -laws and but she's
24:59
going to hold on to it right fiercely to have
25:01
the benefits of being married to this man and
25:04
certainly in the exchanges that we see her with
25:07
her co -workers at the strip club the the pretty
25:11
much what one or two times we see her with her
25:13
sister with the minions she's she's just a bitch
25:16
right she's just we and we have no idea why she's
25:18
a bitch we have zero reason but she but she is
25:21
a bitch and she's very selfish, and we see her
25:25
focusing on material concerns. She wants a fur.
25:28
She wants a bigger diamond ring. She wants to
25:32
live in the house. She wants to make sure she's
25:35
going to be cared for. And we certainly do not
25:38
see her saying to Yvonne, I'm so concerned about
25:42
your feelings. I'm so concerned about this, you
25:44
know, hold your parents have over you. How can
25:46
I make it better? How can I? That is just something.
25:49
I'll keep working at the strip club and support
25:51
us both. No, no, there's there's it's transactional.
25:55
It's transactional. It's clear that it's transactional
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and it's also clear that were he not a wealthy,
26:05
you know. Were he working at McDonald's? Were
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he working at McDonald's? If he did not have
26:08
a private plane, if he was not taking people
26:10
to Vegas, she would be uninterested. She would
26:12
be uninterested. Differently than say the Julia
26:16
Roberts character. Interesting point yet let's
26:20
talk about pretty woman for a bit of course another
26:23
film about a sex worker and actually i believe
26:26
that this week is the thirty fifth anniversary
26:30
of the release of pretty woman which is amazing.
26:35
Truly amazing and I'm sure Julia Roberts feels
26:38
the same way that it is just passed in a blink
26:41
of an eye as Laura knows I had never before watched
26:44
Pretty Woman but did watch it in anticipation
26:47
of this episode I really just was stunned and
26:50
frankly questioned whether Christine and I could
26:52
be friends anymore because Pretty Woman is my
26:54
love language and I find it sort of appalling
26:59
that Christine as a Gen X I know, I know. As
27:03
my friend for so long, had never seen Pretty
27:07
Woman. And I didn't know whether she was even
27:09
going to watch it for the pod, quite frankly.
27:11
And I was surprised when I learned that she was
27:14
watching it. Well, unlike Enora, I am willing
27:16
to make sacrifices for those that I love. And
27:19
I have to say that I absolutely and Lauren and
27:24
I never disagree on movies. I absolutely hated.
27:28
Pretty Woman, although, although I did think
27:31
that Richard, Richard Gere is a wonderful actor.
27:33
And of course, another sex worker film that we
27:35
could have watched is American Gigolo from the
27:38
late, what, maybe 1979, 1980 with Richard Gere
27:42
as a gigolo. I really hated Pretty Woman. I think
27:47
it is a dated film. Not everything that we're
27:49
going to be talking about on this pod is dated
27:52
in the sense that it just, it doesn't feel right
27:54
anymore. Pretty Woman is something I think that
27:57
doesn't. Hold up and one of the big contrast
28:01
right with the nor was too much nudity too much
28:05
sex mechanistic sex repetitive sex right lauren
28:08
as you said. What is remarkable about pretty
28:11
woman is that it seems sex less it seems sex
28:15
free but do you think julia roberts in that film
28:17
is. a hooker with the heart of gold. I do. Oh,
28:21
interesting. Say more. So I think she is a hooker
28:24
with the heart of gold because Richard Gere is
28:28
so emotionally immature, unevolved, clearly can't
28:35
maintain relationships, is completely focused
28:38
on business, and it is through Julia Roberts
28:41
and her wisdom and her beauty and whatever. Her
28:46
odd initiatives. Her odd innocence. Which persists
28:49
even though she's a hooker on Hollywood Boulevard.
28:51
I can suspend that disbelief. She is such a rocking
28:58
gal. She's quite beautiful. And she's so beautiful.
29:01
And she has the best hair. She does. Rivaled
29:04
only by Blake Lively now. Yes, I agree with that.
29:07
She has the best hair. can only grow in his relationship
29:14
with her. And at that end, by the end of the
29:17
film, she, in my opinion, she would not have
29:20
cared if he was a billionaire or not. And he
29:23
had become somebody that she was truly in love
29:26
with. So and everyone loves her. Right. Hector
29:31
Elizondo loves her. He was the best character
29:33
in my opinion. Laura Sandiacoa loves her. Everyone
29:36
does. The elevator boy loves her. Ralph Bellamy
29:40
loves her. She is just a lovey. And I love her,
29:46
love me some Julia Roberts, and the only people
29:49
who don't love her are the shop women who are
29:52
bitches. Who are bitches. But of course they
29:55
think she's poor. They only love credit cards.
29:58
They only love credit cards and they think she's
29:59
poor. I mean, I will say, not that we're going
30:02
to stray and start talking about... Notting Hill,
30:05
another well -known Julia Roberts film. But to
30:07
me, the character in Pretty Woman reminded me
30:11
so much of her character in Notting Hill, although
30:13
obviously they're very different kind of characters.
30:15
But in the sense that in Notting Hill, as in
30:18
Pretty Woman, it is not so much her character
30:22
or her personality, her intelligence. It is not
30:25
that. It is simply her beauty that causes people
30:28
to love her. If you actually think about the
30:30
dialogue in Pretty Woman, Julia Roberts actually
30:32
doesn't say that much. I mean, at all. But what
30:36
she does say is so powerful because it's all
30:41
based on empathy. She's listening to him in a
30:45
way that perhaps others haven't or have ignored
30:48
because of his money. And she's talking, she
30:52
says, right, the therapy that she's going to
30:54
provide him is better than any therapist he could
30:57
ever get. The way that she listens to the David
31:01
Morris character, Ralph Bellamy's Yes, you know
31:06
and again the way she listens also to Ralph Bellamy,
31:10
right and relates to him She's a she's she's
31:13
somebody who provides support. She's a caregiver
31:16
and that's her mo and Everybody's got to love
31:22
them an empathetic person Okay, fair point But
31:27
could you also say that the reason why she is
31:29
so winning and she's the one who really breaks
31:33
through Richard gears shell his emotional shell
31:37
is because we see what he is just broken up with
31:40
a girlfriend when the film starts we see another
31:43
one of his ex -girlfriends and presumably they're
31:45
also from this higher social status they are
31:48
maybe their own sort of powerful working women
31:50
and so the devil's advocate might say that he
31:54
is only really attracted to Julia. Roberts because
31:56
the power dynamic in their relationship is always
31:59
going to be that way. She is always going to
32:02
be the un I mean, maybe she'll get her her GED,
32:06
right? But we're told she didn't finish high
32:08
school, right? She obviously hasn't gone to college.
32:10
They met on Hollywood Boulevard. And so I think
32:14
is it the case that he will always in a sense
32:17
be Above her that we that the idea the very anti
32:22
feminist idea right is that these women who have
32:25
been his equals he could not commit emotionally
32:28
to that. he can commit emotionally to her not
32:31
only because of the empathy, which I agree is
32:33
important, but because she is not a challenge
32:37
to him in the spheres where he now has to experience
32:40
actual working women. Working women not using
32:43
this code for sex workers, but actual working
32:45
women. I would argue the opposite. I would argue
32:47
she is a challenge for him for exactly those
32:50
reasons. That the women he has dated before,
32:53
while not his equals, are more sort of like a
32:56
Gordon Gekko Daryl Hannah live, okay? Decorators.
33:02
Making a reference to Wall Street. Not exactly
33:05
CEOs themselves, but people who are familiar
33:08
with that world. In that world. And Julia Roberts,
33:11
because he hasn't been around real people for
33:16
a long time, right? People who don't live in
33:19
that world is a challenge for her. and at the
33:22
end when you know she says well you know what
33:26
happens after he saves her and she says she saves
33:30
him right back that testifies to a sort of equality
33:34
in that relationship or at least equal things
33:39
being earned on either side and we can question
33:42
whether that's true or not but there is an authenticity
33:46
to her that he finds challenging and she's also
33:52
feistier than perhaps some of his other his other
33:58
girlfriends because she isn't willing to accept
34:01
some of the things that he does or he is she
34:04
isn't willing to accept how people treat her
34:06
and she isn't in the end in it for the money.
34:10
Well, that actually leads to a question that
34:12
I wanted to ask you, which goes back to a Nora.
34:17
Why in this film? Why in Pretty Woman does Julia
34:22
Roberts' character need to be a sex worker? That
34:24
is, why can't she be working at McDonald's or
34:27
she's a delivery driver to his hotel room or
34:30
something? What is it other than obviously the
34:33
plot issue, right? But she's just standing on
34:38
the sidewalk. And so why can't she be plain old,
34:42
regular, poor woman who never finished high school?
34:46
who's standing on the sidewalk and they meet.
34:48
She needs to be a sex worker because the device
34:51
of the film is that he needs a, quote, professional
34:55
for the week, that he can't deal with real emotional
34:59
ties. I mean, he could get, like she says, you
35:02
know, you're a rich, classy guy. Why don't you
35:04
go out and get yourself a nice girlfriend for
35:07
this week? You know, and he says, no, I have
35:09
to go to these business meetings and I need a
35:11
companion and I. don't want it to be somebody
35:14
where there's this messy romantic stuff involved
35:18
him with the naive assumption that he won't have
35:20
feelings for her. And I and I get I think what
35:24
tripped me up with that, though, and in part,
35:26
I mean, the whole structure of the film, it really
35:28
couldn't be otherwise, because of course, she's
35:31
not. a high -class courtesan who is used to mixing
35:35
with these people at that social level. So the
35:38
whole irony of the film is that he says, yes,
35:41
I need someone to accompany me on these things.
35:44
But of course, she doesn't know how to eat. She
35:47
doesn't know what fork to use. She sits on the
35:48
table. She sits on the table. She's super crude.
35:51
She has no manners. But as we learn, she is teachable
35:54
in a matter of days with the right wardrobe.
35:59
One meeting on etiquette with the right stylist
36:05
and the right Bergdorf Goodman saleswoman, all
36:09
is well. All is well. And so certainly, I guess
36:12
we could argue, right? That's someone else's.
36:15
fantasy, right? And we talked about this is the
36:17
origin of Enora. But this is another perfect
36:20
male fantasy, right? The hooker that I pick up
36:23
on Hollywood Boulevard for $50. She's going to
36:26
be a queen tomorrow. Gary Marshall is a fan of
36:27
My Fair Lady. Yes, very much so. But I think
36:31
that that was, to me, and I do hear you about
36:34
the empathy, but something else that was so,
36:39
not surprising to me, it made sense, but I think,
36:41
again, is interesting in comparison to Enora.
36:43
The movie is so chaste. It is so chaste, we don't
36:48
see her with a previous John, she makes reference,
36:53
right, to being with other men. She initiates
36:55
contact with him when they're back at the hotel
36:58
room. Watching I Love Lucy. Watching I Love Lucy,
37:01
so she's not a shrinking violet. Okay, we do
37:05
know why she has entered into sex work, unlike
37:08
in Enora, right, we're told explicitly that she
37:10
did work fast food, but then for whatever reason,
37:13
we don't know why she decided to enter sex work,
37:16
to become a mother. She met Kit. She met Kit
37:18
who said - Who told her that it's gonna be great
37:20
and it's easy money. Easy money. And I know some
37:23
people and, you know - There you go. But you're
37:26
not going to have a pimp. We're going to stay
37:27
away from the pimp, Carlos. We say how, we say
37:29
when, we say how much. That's it. And - But then,
37:33
of course, we just see her with Richard Gere
37:36
in these more very romantic, you know, kind of
37:39
making love scenarios, you know, lingering in
37:43
bed and having the breakfast in the bathroom.
37:47
The piano was the most risk. and I was like,
37:49
people, people are around. That was definitely
37:52
the most risque, but no nudity, right? No nudity.
37:55
Which is in her claws. Yes, no lap dances, obviously,
38:00
unlike Anora, where we said so many lap dances.
38:02
And even a body double in the beginning. Ah,
38:05
good point. Very famously that when she's getting
38:07
dressed in the very beginning in that, again,
38:11
what's now iconic outfit, that is not her. Yes.
38:15
And so, I don't know, it was, it i do think it
38:19
is a dated film but i think in term obviously
38:24
it is the fairy tale right which which in order
38:26
to pretend not to be in some ways but also in
38:29
order to embrace other ways. And one of the things
38:32
that i can thinking of watching pretty woman
38:34
is well alright when they have children together
38:38
and they're having conversations with your children
38:40
say. Mommy how did you and daddy meet and is
38:44
Richard you're going to say I picked your mommy
38:46
up on Hollywood Boulevard when she was a hooker.
38:49
But of course we know he's not going to say that,
38:52
because by the time that Jason Alexander propositions
38:55
her, she has moved beyond thinking of herself
38:58
as a hooker. And if Richard gives this to her,
39:00
I don't mean to point out the obvious, but you
39:02
are a hooker. You are a hooker. And she seems
39:05
surprised by that. I agree. She does. And so
39:08
the narrative is that she has transcended being
39:11
a hooker in... the duration of the relationship
39:15
with Richard Gere, which is why at the end, before
39:17
he comes to get her, we see her packing up. She's
39:19
gonna move to San Francisco. Do something else.
39:21
Give her GEDs. Now in a sweater and jeans. Yes.
39:25
She's definitely in casual Julia Roberts, not
39:29
sex worker Julia Roberts. Not sex worker. And
39:32
so she no longer sees herself that way. And so
39:34
her parents will get her, I'm sorry, her children
39:37
will get a very different story, as will her
39:40
parents. That's how did you meet Richard Gere?
39:45
OK, so we have them just to sort of sum up for
39:48
a second. So we have a Nora, which is. Not a
39:52
good film which we both absolutely hated i don't
39:56
think it's too strong of a word and which i do
39:59
think in ten years will be as much looked upon
40:01
as as much an oscars mistake as crash winning
40:05
but i don't think anyone will remember an aura
40:08
at all. Maybe that may be the case unless they
40:12
bought the thong and they still have the north
40:14
on hanging around in their dresser. Why didn't
40:17
Pretty Woman, Pretty Woman should have sold blonde
40:20
wigs? Look, in those days, the merch situation
40:23
was not as sophisticated. It was not as sophisticated.
40:26
And if we really, look, I would have been the
40:28
first to go out and buy that outfit, that white
40:32
tank top with the tie -dye blue mini skirt and
40:35
those boots. At least for a costume. And the
40:41
red blazer. If not, everyday wear. And the polka
40:46
dot dress that she wears to the polo match was
40:51
replicated in space. But there wasn't any pretty
40:54
woman merch. There wasn't a pretty woman thong.
40:58
There was not a pretty woman thong. And I don't
41:00
own the Anorathong, although I don't know, maybe
41:03
it's worth taking a look at. So we have a Nora,
41:06
a movie we hated that I think is very clearly,
41:10
right, a male fantasy and is so sexually explicit.
41:14
Then we have Pretty Woman, which you and I disagree
41:16
on, sadly. But, but again, we did see it at very
41:19
different times in our lives. We did. I saw it
41:22
in the theater when it first came out. Julia
41:25
Roberts had been in Mystic Pizza. Which I loved.
41:28
Which is wonderful and was the only film I had
41:31
ever seen her in. This is, of course, Pretty
41:33
Woman made her our star. I've loved Richard Gere
41:35
already. And so it was a very, very magical moment
41:39
for me to see Pretty Woman in the theater at
41:42
the, in a payday. Understood, understood. And
41:46
we have, though, Pretty Woman, which is a very
41:48
chaste film, again, in the exact opposite of
41:50
Enora. And now we want to talk about a third
41:54
sex worker film, which is very different. I would
41:58
argue in that it is really focusing. Well, first
42:01
of all, it is focusing on sex, but it is chased
42:04
in its own way. And most importantly, it is not
42:08
a male fantasy. It is all about female sexuality
42:12
and female sexual empowerment. And this is the
42:15
French film Belle du Jour, which came out in
42:19
nineteen sixty seven. Now I'll admit I had not
42:23
seen Bel Dijor since a film class in college
42:28
many many years ago and Christine let me know
42:32
that it was streaming on max and that she had
42:35
recently watched it and that it was very very
42:40
Provocative and that it had inspired her to think
42:44
about it comparatively with Enora So I watched
42:49
it and I enjoyed it and I felt that it captured
42:55
a kind of complexity and a kind of dynamism that
43:01
is probably lacking in both Pretty Woman and
43:04
Anorah. So just a short recap of bell de jure
43:09
again it came out in nineteen sixty seven and
43:11
it was directed by a pretty famous director a
43:15
man called louis boone well who did a bunch of
43:18
films and was very involved with the art movement
43:21
called surrealism. And he based the film bell
43:25
de jour on an earlier novel a novel that had
43:27
come out in the nineteen twenties and the film
43:30
is about a woman called severine who lives in
43:34
the city of paris and she has very particular
43:40
sexual desires a interest in being humiliated
43:45
in masochism and. At the same time, she is in
43:49
a marriage with her very handsome, affluent doctor
43:53
husband in their beautiful apartment in Paris,
43:56
and their relationship is frigid. They have no
43:59
sex life at all. And so what we see in the course
44:02
of the film is Severine decides to become an
44:06
afternoon prostitute at a brothel in Paris. And
44:09
this is what the name means, the title of the
44:11
film. Means basically beauty of the day Belle
44:15
de jour and so she works afternoon hours before
44:18
her husband comes home from work and Complications
44:22
in sue Lauren. Yes many complications in sue
44:26
so the interesting things about Severine and
44:32
Belle de jour Severine is someone who is unlike
44:36
Nora Has an inner monologue about why she gets
44:42
into sex work. We know why she exactly like She
44:47
cannot Fulfill the kind of sexual fantasies that
44:52
she wishes to within her marriage and so she
44:56
seeks them elsewhere as a sex worker in this
44:59
brothel as Christine said after one of her her
45:03
husband's friends mentioned that he had visited
45:06
this brothel and she does so quite tentatively
45:09
she does so with a lot of ambivalence and in
45:14
fact when she gets there the first few times
45:17
she actually has to be tutored and instructed
45:21
by the other sex workers and the madam on what
45:25
to do, how to present herself, and also on how
45:29
to transition from this sort of classy, you know,
45:35
quite beautiful woman to a sort of common sex
45:40
worker in her wardrobe in her hair and in her
45:44
mannerisms although at the same time that is
45:47
part of her appeal yes in the brothel that she
45:49
is different from the two other women who are
45:53
serving as prostitutes. That she has this elegance
45:56
and certainly one of the most important marks
45:59
of that elegance in addition to the actress kathrine
46:02
de neuve being exceptionally beautiful is the
46:05
clothes that she wears. And one of the most interesting
46:08
things about Bel de Jour is that the costuming
46:11
was done by a very young, at the time, designer,
46:16
Yves Saint Laurent. And the clothes are... Magnificent.
46:20
Fantastic. They are timeless pieces that... We
46:24
would wear today. Absolutely. We absolutely meeting
46:28
me and Christine, but but but I think And we
46:33
see all sorts of shift dresses and amazing shoes
46:39
and raincoats and ensembles that are exquisite
46:44
and that really represent her sense of being
46:50
classic and contemporary, but also quite buttoned
46:53
up. Quite buttoned up. In her, quote, normal
46:58
life with her husband. And as a sex worker, we
47:01
see her in a slip. We see her in her stockings
47:06
and bra. But there is a real difference between
47:11
Severine in the wardrobe and Severine in the
47:15
costuming outside of the brothel versus inside
47:20
the brothel. And this is something else that
47:21
is a really interesting comparison with both
47:24
Anora and Pretty Woman. Anora is wearing shitty
47:27
t -shirts, things that are ripped, even if she's
47:31
dressed. And there is this sense that she is
47:34
wearing basically clothes that we might call
47:36
trashy. On the other hand, as we've already discussed,
47:40
there is a clear and explicit evolution in the
47:43
clothes of Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. She
47:45
starts out with this real sort of hooker outfit,
47:47
with the boots and the wig, and she becomes more
47:50
and more elegant as the film goes on. With the
47:53
climax as the opera dress. With the opera dress,
47:56
the opera dress. And of course, the beautiful
47:58
diamond necklace, right? But what is, again,
48:01
so striking about Bel Dijor is that we have a
48:04
consistent image of severine that this is an
48:07
elegant beautiful wealthy bourgeois woman a Parisian
48:12
who doesn't need to look slutty in any way but
48:18
nonetheless moves between spaces but I would
48:21
argue moves between spaces much less but obviously
48:24
she has she can't. Exist in the brothel wearing
48:28
a buttoned up to the neck dress right she has
48:30
to put on the the dressing gown she has to wear
48:33
her bra and slip. But there isn't a sense right
48:37
that she has a quote unquote real person right
48:41
with both anora and pretty woman we are seeing
48:43
them outside of a brothel outside of those spaces.
48:47
But there is a sense i think of consistency in
48:49
her clothes and as you point out she is so buttoned
48:52
up she is so covered up. But there isn't a sense
48:56
of sort of sexual license right and impart the
48:59
friend of the husband that lauren mentioned,
49:02
he is so sexually attracted to severine and her
49:05
quote unquote real life because she is buttoned
49:08
up because she seems so untouchable and when
49:11
he later encounters her in the brothel. This
49:14
friend of the husband doesn't want her anymore,
49:16
precisely because she is sexually available.
49:18
Well, he's also said, you know, your virtue is
49:20
what drew me to you. And now I know you're not
49:23
a virtuous woman and you're just, oh, like the
49:26
rest of them. So forget that. So forget that.
49:29
And one of the other things that is, as Lauren
49:32
mentioned before, we absolutely know why she
49:36
wants to be a sex worker. She has particular
49:41
sexual desires that need to be satisfied that
49:44
her husband cannot satisfy. Now, we don't exactly
49:48
know why the husband can't satisfy this need
49:50
for humiliation, degradation that is driving
49:53
her to the brothel. Right. What's interesting
49:56
bringing this comparison to yet another film
49:58
to baby girl where Nicole Kidman's character
50:03
says to Antonio Banderas I want these things
50:06
and for some reason he can't can't do it mystery
50:09
why don't we don't know why not we don't know
50:12
what in nineteen sixty seven when the vocabulary
50:15
is not what it is in twenty twenty five wall
50:19
the modern feminist movement is. Evolving and
50:24
changing and women's sexuality is contested we
50:28
can understand a better sense why her husband
50:32
may not be game for the kind of degradation she's
50:37
an exploration of that sexuality and they're
50:40
a couple that is still sleeping in twin beds.
50:42
As we see, a la Mike and Carol Brady, to use
50:45
a very Gen X reference. Right, right, right.
50:47
We get the sense that her husband has a very
50:50
traditional sense of sexuality, if that, and
50:55
that he is, again, they talk about children at
50:58
some point, they talk about love, they talk about
51:02
bourgeois, white, middle class norms. They're
51:06
not talking about Again her desire to have mud
51:11
thrown at her, or to be whipped, or any of the
51:15
things that we see in her fantasy life. Yes,
51:18
and this is something that is so important narratively
51:21
about Belle de Jure, and so many of the questions
51:24
that Lauren and I had, for example, about Anora,
51:26
right? Why is she doing this? What is the setting?
51:28
What are the issues with money? All of these
51:30
things. This is done. So well and so economically
51:33
in bell de jour and we know through what are
51:37
clearly dreams sexual fantasies we see So perfectly
51:42
that she has that desire to be humiliated again
51:45
things thrown at her servants abusing her this
51:49
is made exceptionally clear, but it is also Incredibly
51:53
interesting in the context of comparing with
51:55
these other two films to see a film where sex
51:59
work is detached from money. Absolutely. There
52:03
is no question that Severine cares about money.
52:11
She doesn't need it. She doesn't need it. She
52:13
doesn't want it. And in fact, with one of her
52:16
customers, she says, you can see me for free.
52:19
Don't even pay me. You can see me for free. And
52:21
that's a very different conversation than Julia
52:24
Roberts. or Mikey Madison have with their suitors
52:30
or customers, however you want to think about
52:32
it, where there is an arrangement that I'm going
52:34
to be spending a week with you, and this is how
52:36
much it's going to be, and we're going to negotiate.
52:38
And it's going to be a transaction, and the relationship
52:40
is transactional. And it is not transactional
52:43
in the same way in Bell d 'Azur. Because it's
52:46
made very clear that she is getting paid, but
52:49
what she is getting paid in is satisfaction.
52:52
sexual satisfaction and one of the most i think
52:55
famous scenes in bell de jure is the idea that
52:58
we see a john a customer who has a mysterious
53:01
box and we never see what is in the box it is
53:04
shown to the three sex workers severine included
53:08
the other two women are repelled by it horrified
53:11
by it severine though it sends her when she has
53:14
an actual episode with this man and his mysterious
53:16
box she is sent into sexual rapture so much that
53:20
she can barely recover afterwards. And so there
53:23
absolutely is this sense. She is getting what
53:26
she wants right out of this. relationship. Now
53:29
it later spins out of control. But not without
53:31
consequences. But not without consequences. Because
53:33
like Richard Gere, she assumes there can be relationships
53:39
without romantic attachments. But there are not.
53:41
And there are not. And she has a customer later
53:45
on in the film that becomes incredibly attached
53:48
to her and that demands all sorts of things.
53:52
from her, seeing her at night, for instance,
53:55
which she cannot do, that will lead to chaos.
53:59
And that is a sort of downfall of her as a sex
54:05
worker. And again, it's interesting that her
54:08
unrealistic expectations of separating one life
54:12
from another are what leads to destruction in
54:16
a way that's very, very different than a Nora.
54:20
Yes. The idea certainly for severing right that
54:24
the work can remain work in compartmentalization
54:28
of time even right and that's something where
54:30
we see really explicitly, that the sex work at
54:34
the strip club is that expanded out in terms
54:36
of time right which is that what enables the
54:38
marriage but severing has this idea. Right. That
54:42
the work can remain simply work, even though
54:45
she herself then encourages the blurring of these
54:47
boundaries by saying, you can see me for free,
54:49
you can see me other times. And again, also unlike
54:53
Pretty Woman, Severine sees work as a 9 to 5
54:59
job. She thinks about work in very conventional
55:03
ways, and again, can only be employed when her
55:08
husband is at work. She operates in simultaneous
55:11
hours with her husband, where Julia Roberts,
55:14
once Richard Gere makes her the offer, she's
55:17
at work full -time for the week. All the time.
55:19
All the time. And the idea of women's work...
55:22
something that was debated and the center of
55:26
feminist politics at the time. And I think that
55:29
Bell d 'Azur is contributing to that conversation
55:32
and really thinking about what women's work entails
55:35
and the parameters of it, the boundaries of it,
55:39
the amount of agency that women can have in controlling
55:42
their own work and who they work with. And the
55:47
fact that sometimes your work is wanting to be
55:50
humiliated. which is I think a lesson for so
55:53
many of us. Okay, so these are all three films
55:57
that are so, and obviously we could have talked
55:59
about so many more films with sex workers. They
56:01
are legion. But I think maybe we will finish
56:04
this segment. And this is something we'll try
56:07
to do in our pod. And we are going to issue a
56:12
book recommendation for anyone who is interested
56:16
in maybe reading a little bit more about the
56:18
things that Lauren and I are talking about. Lauren
56:21
and I will sometimes think hard about a book
56:23
that will be fun and interesting. for what we
56:27
call the general reader that is not anyone who
56:29
is a historian, but just someone who is interested
56:31
in knowing a little bit more about what we're
56:34
talking about. And the book that I wanted to
56:37
recommend for anyone who's interested in learning
56:39
more about the history of sex work is a book
56:44
by a woman called Deborah Hamill. And that's
56:47
H -A -M -E -L. And she wrote a book called Trying
56:52
Neira. That's N -E -I -R -A. And this is a really
56:56
interesting story. It's a true story of a sex
57:00
worker in ancient Greece in the fourth century
57:03
B .C. And Neira's story is so interesting because
57:07
she is bought by a madam of a brothel at a pretty
57:11
young age. And so she lives in the brothel for
57:15
a while and then she's actually bought by two
57:17
men, two friends who in effect, and it sounds
57:20
kind of gross, want to share her as a sex slave.
57:24
And they eventually set her free when they decide
57:28
that they want to marry and Nira herself then
57:30
goes on and marries a man in Athens and they're
57:32
married for decades. But she is put on trial
57:34
actually for being an illegal immigrant in Athens.
57:37
It's a really interesting story and so quirky
57:40
and fascinating and tells us a lot about sex
57:43
work in the ancient past. So my recommendation
57:46
is going to be the murder of Helen Jewett. by
57:50
Patricia Klein Cohen and this is a young woman,
57:55
Helen Jewett, who was a sex worker in Antebellum
58:00
America, who was murdered in 1836. And she had
58:06
refashioned her identity several times. She had
58:09
moved through New York City and other areas.
58:12
And the book really does a tremendous job of
58:16
reconstructing the narratives around sex work,
58:19
around class, and around both ideas of femininity,
58:24
masculinity in this moment of Jacksonian America.
58:30
It tells you as much about the values about our
58:35
family relationships about the trial itself which
58:40
was the sort of trial of its century similar
58:43
to serve think of the OJ trial or some other
58:46
big trials that have happened but Helen Jewett
58:50
was one of the first sort of sensational. figures
58:55
to be debated even after her death, which was
58:59
highly contested due to the wealth of the accused.
59:04
So I recommend it, The Murder of Helen Jewett,
59:08
if you'd like to learn more about American history
59:11
in the 19th century. You know this is a reminder
59:15
lauren that prostitution is the world's oldest
59:20
profession as they say okay so just the last
59:23
thing we're going to do before we say goodbye
59:25
is. We are going to do some harping or some loving
59:30
very briefly. That is, we will try each time
59:33
in the pod to either harp on something for a
59:36
minute or love it up. Love it up. So, Christine,
59:39
I have to say, even though this will break the
59:41
rules, that I love you for... figuring out all
59:45
the technology of this podcast, which is not
59:49
my skill set. And I have learned is yours. I'm
59:53
not sure I would go that far, but thank you.
59:55
And I love you too. So what is your harp for
1:00:00
the week? Okay i'm going to say this very quickly
1:00:02
my heart for the week is the clothes on gossip
1:00:04
girl i am watching gossip girl for the very first
1:00:07
time and i will say i love the clothes what i
1:00:10
don't love about the clothes is that i feel like
1:00:13
everybody is in this has the same template. That
1:00:17
is for example on sex in the city obviously right
1:00:19
you saw carry where lots of different kinds of
1:00:21
outfits sometimes shorts in a tube top sometimes
1:00:23
an elegant gown and i feel like every single
1:00:26
character right it's. Blair, Blair, for example,
1:00:30
and Serena, the miniskirt, the tights, the spike
1:00:34
heels, right? Lily, the statement, actually,
1:00:37
everyone wears the five pound statement necklaces,
1:00:39
right? But the statement necklace, the elegant
1:00:42
outfit, the hair up, I just feel like there is
1:00:45
not enough adaptation and diversity in the clothes,
1:00:49
however beautiful they are. You know, if I were
1:00:52
assigned to house arrest, I think I would be
1:00:54
wearing sweatpants. and not my big statement
1:00:56
necklace and a Chanel skirt. So I want more breath
1:01:01
in my clothes. Although the sweatpants might
1:01:02
be made by Chanel. True. Good point. But something
1:01:05
a little bit more casual. That is my harp for
1:01:09
the week. Well noted. Well noted. Okay. My harp
1:01:13
for the week, tying back to the first part of
1:01:16
the pod where I talked about college acceptances.
1:01:20
think that when your child is accepted to college
1:01:24
it is just you know you can just dust your hands
1:01:26
off and it's a great job and it's a celebratory
1:01:30
moment and your kid goes off and you wish him
1:01:33
well. Well the first thing that happens is you
1:01:36
have to create a portal, which is different than
1:01:39
the portal that you created when the kid applied.
1:01:42
Then if you'd like to see if you got any financial
1:01:45
aid, you need to create another portal. Then
1:01:48
if you'd like to learn about housing, you create
1:01:50
another portal and on and on and on. And these
1:01:54
portals all have different passwords and different
1:01:57
login names and different relationships to one
1:02:02
another. And the agony of creating these portals,
1:02:06
which are supposed to be done by a 17 year old
1:02:10
teenager, no matter how technologically adept,
1:02:14
can't happen without some kind of parental oversight,
1:02:20
which is unnecessary and just completely fucked.
1:02:25
And as an employee of a university, I really
1:02:28
hope our own university doesn't require all of
1:02:32
these portals, but it is a labyrinth of technological
1:02:37
mayhem. And I ask that it stop. And I ask that
1:02:41
we could just please just confine it to one portal.
1:02:45
You got in. Here's your money or not. And here's
1:02:49
your roommate or not. And welcome. Welcome. Not,
1:02:54
let's drive your parents insane. They're just
1:02:58
trying to see how badly you want it, Lauren.
1:03:01
How many portals you are willing to go through
1:03:04
in order to get to paradise. So I am harping
1:03:09
on the portals and I am begging universities
1:03:12
out there, make it stop and let us enjoy our
1:03:17
wonderful children who have worked really hard
1:03:19
to get into your stalls. You also need a portal
1:03:24
to find out if you've gotten rejected. So it
1:03:26
works both ways. The rejection portal. I feel
1:03:29
like I've walked through the rejection portal
1:03:31
many times in my own life. Well, that is Lauren's
1:03:35
harp for the week, and I had my harp. So I think
1:03:39
now we will say goodbye. And we hope, listeners,
1:03:43
you will return for the next episode of History
1:03:46
Harpies, and peace out. Peace out. Harpies out.