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Want to Teach Yoga Online? Here's What Actually Works w/ Cathy Madeo · Master Your Yoga Teaching with MaKenzie Fly

• cathy: you can have the best product on the world online, but if no one knows who you are or about it, they're not gonna buy it. So MaKenzie Fly: Say it again. Say again. cathy: Say it louder. the an equal bucket, if not even bigger, is marketing. Like you if you want to be online, 80% of what you do is marketing. Period. and this is what I think can be really daunting and challenging for maybe newer teachers is they're still developing their craft. I had all those, you know, I decades of developing my craft and and then it was online. I do recognize I'm in a bit of a different position because now I can focus all of my attention on marketing. Literally all of my attention is on marketing, MaKenzie Fly: What's up, everybody, and welcome back to NYYT, where you are learning to level up your yoga teaching one masterful class at a time. If you have ever wanted to teach yoga online, here is what actually works. Today's guest, Kathy Medeo, has spent more than two decades teaching yoga. And today she's built a global online yoga school that has trained more than 600 teachers across 50 plus countries. But her online yoga business definitely wasn't an overnight success. In this episode, Kathy takes us behind the scenes of the failures, risks, pivots, investments, and lots of work that eventually helped her turn her teaching into a thriving online business. We talk about how one of the hardest seasons of her life became the catalyst for completely reinventing her career, how Kathy went from zero dollars to more than 100K in only six months. Kathy's hot take on why online yoga teacher trainings can actually create better learning experiences. Why you shouldn't rush to create an online course and what Kathy recommends doing first. Why Kathy believes 80% of building an online business is marketing. how consistently sharing valuable content. Builds the trust you eventually need to sell, what Kathy does herself, what she hires out, and why you don't need to master every piece of tech, why production over perfection has become one of Kathy's business mantras. The question, what do I want to be known for? And how it helped Kathy intentionally reposition her entire brand. How an injury that threatened Kathy's identity as a yoga teacher ultimately became one of her biggest differentiators online. whether you're dreaming about taking your teaching beyond the yoga studio. Creating your first online offer, or maybe just wondering how to actually get more people to see the work you've already created. This conversation is packed with perspective from someone who spent years figuring it out. I know you're gonna enjoy this one. So turn it up and let's dive in. Kathy Madeo is an international yoga educator, teacher trainer, and founder of Kathy Madeo Yoga, a global online yoga school. Practicing yoga since 1994 and teaching since 2004, Kathy has spent more than two decades teaching, managing studios, developing teacher trainings, and educating yoga teachers. After years in the traditional studio model, including opening her own studio in Princeton, New Jersey, she transitioned her business online. Her first online 200-hour yoga teacher training in 2020. Since then, Kathy Medeo Yoga has trained more than 600 teachers across 50 plus countries and grown into an online community, reaching hundreds of thousands of yoga practitioners worldwide. Kathy is known for her alignment-focused approach, intelligent sequencing, and her commitment to helping yoga teachers become more confident, knowledgeable, and impactful educators. Thank you so much for coming to the podcast, Kathy. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you. cathy: thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. I was mentioning before we clicked record that I've been following you for a while and just appreciate so many of the things that you share and post and the way that you just share your story with people of what you've been through and how you use that as the motivator to get things done. so I just wanted to say thank you for the way that you show up and the lighthouse that you are for so many yoga teachers. cathy: Thanks so much. A lot of lot of stories to share. And it's definitely can feel scary to click post on some of those stories, not knowing how they'll be received. But I think that sharing our own personal experiences and stories is so helpful to other people. That's the feedback I get that keeps the machine going. So MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, absolutely. And with social media, it's always the stuff like you know you're on the right track or have a good idea if you feel a little bit scared right before you leave. It's always cathy: Right, yeah. MaKenzie Fly: the vulnerable shares that end up sparking the most incredible conversations or having people be like, me too, or thank you so much for sharing things like that. One of yours in particular that is a pen post, and I know you have so much that you so many stories that you could tell even within this one instance. cathy: Right. MaKenzie Fly: But really how your online business technically failed before it succeeded and how the darkest time in your life became the perfect amount of motivation for you to produce what is such a successful thing now. Can you walk us through what that looks like? cathy: yeah, it gives me chills just like thinking about that time and everything. So I believe what you're referencing, that pinned post, walks people through my journey to my online business, which if you just came in contact with me, might just be like, you know, she just did that. Okay, that, you know, either is easy or is lucky or something like that. But it comes just from years of repeatedly consistently showing up and trying new things. And one of the things that I tried in like 2017, 2018, so pre you know pre-COVID, I was very interested in being online. Like I wanted to be online. I remember researching and looking for someone else that was doing it and doing it well. And I used like at the time I've never even taken one of her classes, but just her branding, Tracy Anderson. I remember finding her website and being like, Yeah, yeah, someone's doing it. They're doing it really well. I, you know, maybe I could do that, right? And I I produced, at the time I I owned a studio in New Jersey and I had a YouTube channel, but it was like very, you know, with my phone and in my dining room. And I was starting to post on Instagram and I just knew I wanted to be online. And I produced my own online series. I was like, I'm I'm gonna do this, you know. And I think I spent like five thousand dollars and hired a videographer and I produced a series called Activate Your Core. You can still buy it. It's the OG of my series. And sold, you know, put together a beautiful website and the branding and all the things and I don't know how many followers I had at the time, maybe 10,000 or something or 30,000, somewhere between like 10 to 30,000. And I was like, okay, you know, this is gonna be it. And like I sold like, I don't know, 30, 30 sales over like a few months or something. And I was like, okay. Like barely made back the money of what it cost to produce. And I was like, okay, that's not so easy, you know, and continued on with my studio and everything. So when COVID happened, basically, I had went through this dark period, as you mentioned, where I was newly separated. We had relocated to Florida. We thought we stole sold the yoga studio, but the sale fell through. MaKenzie Fly: Mm. cathy: And but we'd already moved, which is like lesson learned until the everything's signed. Everything was signed, but they're they still found it out, you know. But so I guess so less the lesson wait till you get the money before you make moves. and yeah, moved, got separated, had no income, had no job, and the studio was still open. My ex went back to New Jersey to manage the studio. And figure out how to sell it. And then COVID happened. So then we couldn't even sell the studio. You know, it was like, and I had no income coming in at all. And I was at this point a single mother, dad, the dad was not involved at all. Like didn't see the kids for nearly a year. And I was like, my God, I don't know what to do. Like I literally don't know what to do. I've got a, you know, three people in this house. I have zero money coming in. I had yeah, it it was bad. So it was like that dark period and I talk about this bef I've talked about this before and and I went and I did the only thing I really know how to do, which is to practice yoga. And I'm I just meditated for like three weeks. I mean, it was COVID, right? We're all in lockdown, I'm with my kids, I've Not working, what am I gonna do? I don't know what I'm gonna do or how to make money. And I just was meditating and crying a lot. And I just had this, I remembered my series, the activate your core series, which I had hadn't sold in years. And I was like, you know, everyone's home. Should put that baby on sale, you know, and I thought of the marketing. term like give give them an offer they can't refuse. So I priced it MaKenzie Fly: Right. cathy: really low. I priced it at like $19. And I I at that and then I think my audience was a lot bigger at that time. It was like had had grown to a hundred thousand. So I had more people to sell to and everyone was at home. And you know, in like three days it sold a lot. And I was like, I I I hit something here, you know. So I immediately reached out to an online or sorry to a local studio. I said, Can I rate your studio during COVID? It's closed. They were like, Yeah. And I went, I filmed another series myself. I edited it myself. And that one sold, it was a handstand series. And that one sold really well. In like a week it it made triple what the core one made. And I was like, I I kept having this like, you know, I I should be listening to this, which I think is another lesson, which is strike when the iron is hot. You know, I think because I make that mistake still to this day. Like I've had a couple posts go crazy viral and I didn't really know what to do with that. And I wish that looking back, I had done something more with those posts, because it's the it's the people telling you what they want, you know, very loudly. So Our our job, I think as teachers, if we want to build that career and stuff, is like listening to those moments where the people are like, yes, and it's hot. And so you just you you go. It's like go time, you know. So that was really and then I mean I could continue on with the story, right? It was like then people started messaging me on Instagram. Would you put to would you put an online training online? And I at first I said no. I was like, no, you know, it's like You can't train teachers online. You need the MaKenzie Fly: Yes, yes. cathy: hands-on assist. You need to be in the room, you know. And then I thought, you know what? If anyone can do it, it's me. Like I I'm online before most people. You know, I had already with the studio I owned, it was part of a franchise. I developed their online platform before COVID. So I had already produced 200 yoga videos, filmed, edited, directed, hired. like I was very like I was I was like, if anyone can do it, it's me, you know. So I was just like, okay, I went out to the market and I looked at what was going on. So another lesson here, right? Like, don't just go and do it. I was like, what where where's the gap? What are people getting wrong? And what I saw that people were getting wrong was yoga studios were scrambling to put their YTTs online and they would just film. like seven hours in the studio on Zoom. And I was like, that's not how you go online. You have to adapt to the medium. You know, online's shorter, it's cleaner, it's crisper. It's, you know, an hour class is 30 minutes online. It's MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: just a different format, you know. So I was like, okay, that's a huge gap. And then I had and then I thought, okay, what are the problems? Why did I say no to putting a teacher training online? Can I solve for those problems? Okay. If I if I can't physically touch someone, how can I solve for that problem? If people aren't in the room, how can I build community? How can I give people personalized attention? And I started just solving for those problems. And then I was like, I'm doing this. I'm gonna put my YTT online. And I was like, McKinsey, I mean, I was flat fucking broke if I'm allowed to like no money. That I couldn't even film the the training. I didn't have the money to film the training because something this big I needed to hire a videographer. I wanted it to look really good too. And so I did, I took a I did something unhinged, which was I sold the training without having a single video filmed. do you? this MaKenzie Fly: I do that all the time. Yeah. cathy: is like okay. For me, that was like I don't even have a product, you know? So it was like, you're like, I do that all day. time girl. Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah. Well y I mean bef I used to make that mistake of thinking I had to have it already and then going to sell it and then recognizing after all that work that maybe it didn't have any legs. You know. So I like to I like to see if like people are even gonna bite. Yeah. cathy: Right. See if it's gonna go. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I basically had like, okay, eight people will cover the cost of the videographer. And once I hit that eight, it was like, go, we went in, we filmed, you know, the rest is history, cause like sold that training out so fast that I had that I put another one right next to it. So it was like within, you know, I my story is like within six months I went from zero dollars to over a hundred thousand dollars very quickly. And I was like, okay, I've got something here. And I've just, I just have kept going. Like all the money I make has been reinvested and new trainings and new programs and new offerings. And now I I kind of have s stopped a little bit in creating new stuff because it's a machine now. MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. cathy: And like Being in that season, it's it's not like I'm not working anymore. It's just a different kind of work and it's it's so nice. And I look back and I'm like, I can't believe I mean I filmed 14 online yoga series. I filmed a 200 hour and a 300 hour. It's like over a thousand long form videos in a year or three years over th the course of three years. I look back and I'm like, I don't know who that person was. She is She is super productive. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. Honestly, honestly, it's so impressive. And thank you so much for walking us through that period. And I hope yoga teachers were just feeling inspired and taking notes and just just so much within there. The first thing that I want to roll back to is a hilarious memory, I guess, of you mentioned Tracy Anderson. How funny. I worked on cruise ships. I worked on cruise ships for a couple of years. This was my first gig out of college. I went to school for performance in musical theater. So I cathy: Okay. MaKenzie Fly: was working on cruise ships, and some of the cast, me and the dancers, they would often ask me to teach yoga. And so I would. I would teach yoga to the cast backstage, and we'd be like in the bowels of the ship, and I'd be doing like, you know, all sorts of stuff, just in any pocket, nook and cranny of the ship that we could find. But sometimes we would alternate between me teaching yoga and then one of the dancers had a series of Tracy Anderson. And if you've never experienced a Tracy Anderson situation, I liken it to almost like a kundalini in the sense of a lot of repetitive movements and simp and Pilates to where it's like seemingly simple movements to start. But when you do it 200 times, then you're like, I don't even know what tiny muscle this is that's burning. So cathy: Right. MaKenzie Fly: And she's funny the way she teaches. She doesn't speak at all. You just like follow her. And yes, cathy: To the queue. Yeah, I've heard this. Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: and she's always got this like look on her face where she's just like checking herself out in the mirror. I bet she's a lovely human. I've never talked to her, but just poking fun at the presentation. It's so very different from maybe like a yoga teacher or yoga energy. And so anyway, cathy: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: I have dabbled with a few of those Tracy Anderson videos. And she has done a phenomenal job of building a brand and having having Yeah. Yeah. cathy: Yeah, her branding's on point, especially back then, you know, it's like no one was really doing it, you know. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. that's so funny. So that's my experience with Tracy Anderson. I think she's still out there just like pumping, pumping and thriving. cathy: It's funny. Yeah. she's still out there. Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Her biggest clientele, I think, was Gwynneth Paltro or something. And her her movement cathy: Yeah, yeah, I remember that. MaKenzie Fly: was supposed to be all about really toning those deep muscles that change the shape of the the muscle for so that you get like that that almost like sculpted feel. Yeah, funny little aside. cathy: That sounded, yeah. MaKenzie Fly: But I just love your tenacity, your resiliency, your bravery. And I want to double hit for people that sometimes it's being in those exact conditions that feel like the dark night of the soul or when there is a lot of pressure. And I had this experience too of having kids was exactly the fire under my ass that I needed to do the jobs that I wanted to do and for years had wanted to do, but always found some sort of excuse to put it on the back burner. And it's like that pressure was what you needed to Like stop overthinking and just do, you know, and just like put stuff out there. And I think that you're such a testament to that. And what you said as well about like striking when the iron is hot, of following the feedback and, you know, cathy: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: really listening to what's working and to keep moving towards that direction and with that momentum, it's huge. It is so huge, especially online. Yeah. cathy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. People people will tell you. I mean, people will tell you what they want and what what they don't want. By MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah. cathy: either they'll either like actually tell you in the comments or they'll MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: tell you by not liking or engaging. You know. MaKenzie Fly: Hmm. And with what you said about developing the teacher training and at first having a lot of resistance to doing it online, thinking that it could only really be experienced in person, but then almost appreciating a lot of the online elements for its effectiveness. It's almost like The students get to revisit the modules, just so many other maybe like hidden benefits that you wouldn't have known about unless you did it. Can you speak a little bit more on that of like why it actually does work a little bit better online for some of those cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: yoga teachers who are like, No, it needs to be in person. cathy: Yeah, yeah, I'd love to. I mean, I have so much to say and and I will also preface this with, you know, I've heard other teachers like poo online, but that but they haven't done it. And like I've done both worlds. I've taught YTT in person, I've developed YTTs for multiple s yoga studios, and I've done it in online. So I have like experienced richly both worlds for many, many years and It's one of the being online now, I am so blown away by the effectiveness. Now, not all trainings, because I get a lot of people that come to me from having done certain online programs and they're like, that, you know, it wasn't wasn't great. but like I feel like my training really does speak to this because I solved for a lot of the problems. But it's one of the like online's been so produced such good yoga teachers. compared to my in-person teachers. And that I haven't even gone back to teaching in-person. I could very easily teach in-person YTTs and I haven't. And the the things that make I feel like online so good when it's done good is like you said, the fact that you can rewatch the material and learn at your own pace. I get a lot of international students where you English isn't their first language. So They can pause and use third-party apps to translate and really ingest the material at their own listening and learning capacity. You do not get that in person. That MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: teacher is talking at their own speed. And if you are not sharp and listening, you're literally missing everything that they're saying. You know? And it's not recorded. So you never get that back. You know, if if you miss a weekend. In person, you don't get that weekend back, you know, whereas online everything is there. So it's a resource. I have graduates who will retake the live classes, they'll re-watch the videos as they develop, they'll come back to like the anatomy section and like really understand it at a deeper level. So that's another thing. It's like this online resource you can go back to that is really beneficial. The other thing is surprisingly being in the lives, when I have like just like our screen is right now, like if a student asks a question, I'll spotlight our video and really be able to work with them. There's something about that spotlight. And this is where I taught I mean, this is what I mean by like the medium in a lot of ways is the message. How you're using, whether you're in person, online. Pre-recorded live really matters. So, you know, I can get a lot done coaching someone side by side like this. And the fact that all the other students are kind of cut out and you're not distracted by them, you can really zone in and do a lot of work there, I feel like. and then additionally, the I have students submit video submissions. And my gosh, like the funny thing is the first time they do their first rounds of videos, like in my 200 hour, it's like a sun salad. And they t they all tell me, my God, I recorded it like 10 times. You know, I kept my and I'm like that process right there. Again, you can't you don't do that in person, but that process of going through the muck and making it perfect, you know, practice MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: makes perfect and getting them to reflect and watch back their own video and have to actually look and hear what they're saying, they don't get that in person. And like the second you hear yourself teach, I mean, that is like transformational, you know? So, so I think that and then me being able to review their videos again, a little bit different than what I can do in person. I I screenshot, I zero in, I leave them detailed voice memos, we go back and forth. So I just I personally love educational yoga online. And MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. cathy: I always tell people, you know what, go on a yoga retreat and enjoy yourself. Don't go on a yoga retreat to do a training. You are going to be enjoying yourself. You're MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: going to want to enjoy yourself, but in a you know just go learn in a learning environment and then go enjoy yourself when you travel. Like that's my philosophy, you know. Yeah, that is a hot take. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, I mean, hot take. And I'm I'm with you. And even I mean, from the experience, like everything that we've kind of talked about is from the student perspective in the experience, but you mentioned it from the facilitator guy or from the facilitator side and perspective of the curriculum development, how much it requires you to be more ruthless as to like what actually belongs, and almost way more hyper attentive to if there is an order. To things, it you have to be more so online and it's almost gotta be like super clear the stepping stones, as opposed to in person. Sometimes things could be a little more vague or out of order and you you circle around it. But when it's done online, you can really trim the fluff, you know, and just provide cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: the the clearest path to that. And it's it's almost or at least in my experience, when I'm putting things together, it requires a little more like planning and forethought and really distilling down what's important from the provider side. Have you found that to be the case too? cathy: Hundred percent. I love that you even said that because I definitely that was kind of why I said like a 60 minute or in-person class ends up being like a 30 to 40 minute recorded because MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: all the fluff is gone and MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: you get so precise. And one of the best things that what tools for me as a teacher has actually been being a content creator and specifically when Instagram, I don't know if y'all you remember these days, whoever's listening, but Instagram, the video used to be 15 seconds. You'd have to do a tutorial in 15 seconds, you know, as a yoga teacher. And like I love that constraint. Like how can I teach something in 15 seconds? And then now I've got 30. Now we we get a little bit longer, but even still having to trim down all this other fluff and stuff is is so useful as a teacher because as teachers I think what we really want to be good at is communication. And you know MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. cathy: the more we can r remove the fillers and like you said the development, you know, getting really crystal clear on what it is we're teaching or developing so there's a little bit more time on the back end, but then when we present it, it's sh super like short and efficient. Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. that's so good. And I think again, another reframe of looking at the constraint as an invitation to almost make it like a sutra in the sense where it's like cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: it is the most essential, like it's to the heart, the most important thing. cathy: I love that. MaKenzie Fly: that is so good. Yeah, I love that too. You heard it for and then look. Yes, yes. cathy: You heard it first here, comparing Instagram to a Yoga Sutra. Yes. MaKenzie Fly: I love it. I love it so much. So with you moving online, do you, I mean, for for yoga teachers out there who are kind of wanting to do this, and maybe you've somewhat convinced them they have some sort of YTT that they do in person, what does that transition look like? And any other tips that you could give teachers from switching to in-person to online? What are the pros and what are the cons? What has been the experience of that? yeah, and more of maybe like a small playbook. Of what they could do or what they could expect. cathy: Hm, yeah. So I think that there's two separate things to talk about here and so I'll just siphon them a little bit. So one is the actual technical part of taking your teaching or we say content and adapting it to online as one conversation. But you can have the best product on the world online, but if no one knows who you are or about it, they're not gonna buy it. So MaKenzie Fly: Say it again. Say again. cathy: Say it louder. So the whole the an equal bucket, if not even bigger, is marketing. Like you if you want to be online, 80% of what you do is marketing. Period. And like luck and I and this is what I think can be really daunting and challenging for maybe newer teachers is they're still developing their craft. Like lu for me, I I had all those, you know, I decades of developing my craft and and then it was online. So MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: I do recognize I'm in a bit of a different position because now I can focus all of my attention on marketing. Literally all of my attention is on marketing, you know, and and so so just being aware of that. But you know, in terms of adapting what you're doing in person, I I want to give like what I think is the most helpful thing that I could give. And it might not be super concrete, but I think people rush to put things online, or you know, you're a newer teacher, you're you're this and that, you want to teach online, and so you're like, well, I'm gonna I'll start a website and I'll I'll I'll film a series, I'll do a digital product. But I would say spend a spend more time in that development phase, like like you were saying, and test out your teaching. So Get really, really good at what the content is before putting it online, I think is what I'm trying to say. MaKenzie Fly: Mm. Yeah. cathy: so make the content really good because once you're online, you know, everyone's gonna potentially everyone would see it. And if you're putting out bad content, that matters. And so you lose trust. So build your craft and your work and your teaching style and your teaching methodology in the classroom. Like in real life, you know, with real students, get actual feedback. My activate your core series I put online was not just something I developed. It was something I did in my body, and then it worked for me. And so I started teaching it in my classes. And then I developed an eight-week series. And then I started teaching workshops. And then I saw results in the students. And then I took all of that. And put it and packaged it online. Right? It's because otherwise you all are just guessing what people need or want. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: So I think, you know, get the results, make sure whatever it is you're teaching works. Be solve solve your students' problems, basically. Learn how to solve people's problems. And that's what your ultimate online offer is. Don't just MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: do stuff that you like. Who cares? Nobody cares what you like. Kidding. But like that, you know, like so they MaKenzie Fly: my gosh. Yeah. cathy: care, they want their problems solved. And you you you want to figure out what your students' problems are, solve their problems and and get really good at that, turn it into maybe some kind of methodology, and then put it online. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And you've said it, I mean, you've said the phrase of like solving problems. And this really is so key. And this is what entrepreneurship is, okay? It's like you are a problem solver and you mentioned spotting a gap of like what what is the gap? Where is it falling short that this problem is not being solved and how can I fill that gap? That's cathy: Hmm. MaKenzie Fly: an entrepreneurial spirit right there. That's being a yogipreneur. cathy: Right. MaKenzie Fly: And I think where a lot of I see this all the time. I saw it with myself first, and then now with other yoga teachers that I mentor and help. It's like we often approach it from solving our problem, which our problem cathy: Right. MaKenzie Fly: is often like, I need to make more money or I need, you know, an additional stream of income. So I'm going to make this thing solving my problem. That then we separate a little bit or forget that the whole reason why we're creating this thing is to help their problem and be connected to their problem. And thinking and communicating with them with that in mind. So not talking at them like about the solutions or the way in which we're doing it, but talking to them not with the solution, because that's not what they're, they're not speaking in the solution or the symptom. They're experiencing and thinking and feeling in the problem. And so a lot cathy: Right. MaKenzie Fly: of times like learning how to like you said, communicate that and package that and remember what it was like to be in that Position and in that pain. And with what you shared about having moved through it yourself, having had direct experience, walked yourself through your steps, seen that transformation, felt those results, that's validating that something works. And that is so key and so critical in creating something successful is either being the proof of concept yourself, being the cathy: Right. MaKenzie Fly: billboard yourself, or at least having walked somebody else through it once and seen a change in them too. Okay. cathy: Some getting some results. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: I d so I don't know if I answered your question, but MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: I I don't know if you want more tactical, 'cause I can definitely tell you like what website I use and like how to actually do it. I I think another I don't know, you tell me. I can go in any direct direction. MaKenzie Fly: It's the no, I mean that that that is so that that's key because what you shared is important of like having some sort of validation yourself. But then what you're already starting to unpack, and this is the thing that I actually think holds a lot of teachers back, is the tech side and the huge learning curve that cathy: Yes. MaKenzie Fly: comes with learning all of the softwares, or like you said, when you're like, okay, the very second that you say I'm gonna create a program, you become a video, you become a model. A video editor, a course creator, like you adopt all of these roles that maybe you don't have any formal education or training on. And it's like learning a lot of skills all at once. So yes, what has you been your experience in cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: the tech and what are tips on overcoming that technophobia? cathy: Yeah. So I do a mix of things. And that is honestly what I would recommend for other people to do. You probably don't have the bandwidth to do everything. People look at what I do and they can't believe I do so much and I do, but I also know when to delegate. For instance, I lead a 60 day social media boot camp, which is actually coming up September 12th, if you all want to join. And I wanted to redo all of the slide decks for it. And I'm like, I'm not a graphic designer. I didn't go on to upwork and hire someone. Like I know the content and the copy that I want to go just so I just hired someone. Like that is not a good use of my time to learn does graphic design. That's not a good use of my time. What I would do with my online series was I I do have enough tech skills to but not that much. Like I bought a camera and I had my friend do the settings for me for MaKenzie Fly: Mm. cathy: my for my series. And then I just put the camera on a tripod, you know, and I can do basic editing. and so my online series practice videos I filmed and edited to save money, a most of them. Some of them I use my videographer. But then I would hire the videographer to come in to film the trailer and take still shots for the thumbnails. So it looks very professional. And so I have good video quality to promote it. And then I try to match my own skills as much inside, you know, longer form classes is easy to edit, right? Because you I don't have a much as like fast cuts and stuff. So that that was one thing that I did. I think another tip I want to give is that I I do think sometimes people, and I think this because they will tell me, look at a creator like me and they think either, I don't know what they think something like, she, she has a team, or she's getting all these amazing opportunities, like in terms of like if I come out with a bunch of really amazing photos. And I'm like, no, I I hired that photographer. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, yeah. cathy: Like you all can go hire people and get really good pictures or hire a videographer and get really good things. I think people think I was hired. Does that make sense? And it's like, MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yes. cathy: no, no, no. I have literally like 5,000 high-resolution images of me doing yoga from me paying a photographer. And at first I didn't pay. I reached out to people in my communities, you all can do this too, and asked. local photographers if they would want to collaborate and do stuff for free basically. And MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: so many said yes. And many of them I I launched helped launch their career because then I would post their photos and they would get more yoga people in the area. so you don't have to have like a ton of followers to just reach out to other people in your area that are also starting out and start getting some content. So these are ways in which I've utilized other people. And then there and then there are certain things I think are really good for you all to learn if you're going to be on social media. Like you do want to learn how to film with your phone, but you don't need a fancy camera. But you can. There's a lot of just different, you know, learning different angles and stuff on your phone and learning how to edit in the edits app, things like this. And what I would recommend is like if you don't know how to do it, just become a student. Either I remember when TikTok, I'll give you an example. I remember when TikTok came out. And luckily I was reached out to by TikTok and they wanted to bring a bunch of educational content creators on. They had a big fund for it. It's like great. And I was like, I don't know TikTok. I don't know. I don't know. So I literally for three days watched every YouTube video tutorial on TikTok, on on editing, on the style, on You know, the algorithm, all the things. And I just put myself in my own little mini course and I just consumed a ton. And then I was like, okay, I'm ready. You know? So either do something like that, consume a ton of free information, or or spend money on a course. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: You know, just and put the investment in because it will pay itself back. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: Like taking something like my social media boot camp pays itself back easily, you know. So MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah. cathy: just Learn take the time to learn how to do what you don't need to do. And then the stuff you're not interested in, just hire someone else. You can go on places like Upwork. I mean, I pay my designer $15 an hour, which is nothing. And it's a ton of money to him, you know, because he lived in another country. So MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. Yeah. cathy: like there are a lot of things, like ways to do that, I think. MaKenzie Fly: A hundred percent. I'm so glad that you shared that because I do think it can be such a slippery slope and really easy to fall into the trap of thinking it's so much easier for them or they're lucky it comes to them. And how not helpful. How also not true, like not true and cathy: Yeah. Right, not true. MaKenzie Fly: not helpful. And to look at these people and if they're if they have a a certain level of success, look at it through the lens of like, wow, they have really worked their butt off probably to get that. You know, and cathy: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: I I found that to be true in anybody that I speak to who is doing really well and they will pull back the curtain and share the behind the scenes of all the risk that they've taken, all of the like you're speaking to the time, you know, of pouring over things, whether you're being really scrappy and resourceful of learning cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: and trading, you know, doing stuff for free when you can, but also forking out the money to like hire the people. It's like, no, that cost you, you know, that That costs you and the level of professionalism you've paid for, whether it's been in the production of something or the price that you paid to really learn something, it's like, no, I I earned this and and that's huge, you know. And cathy: Yeah. Yeah. Paying people for their expertise, I'm a big fan of. And and like as soon when I used to trade, as soon as I was making enough money, I'm like, I want to start paying you, you know. But the the very first thing I did with the income that I got when I sold the activate your core in the handstand series, MaKenzie Fly: Reinvest it. cathy: I I took a I spent like two grand on a marketing course because I wanted to put the YTT online. And I was like, I want to do this right because there's like 300 long form videos. I don't want to have to switch web like I got to do this right from the start. And that was like such a good investment. And it was scary to put a huge chunk of the money I had just made when I had no money. But it pays off when you all invest in yourself for sure. Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. And to learn the skills and then to experience the sensation and the feeling of being the type of person who's like, I know how to do this, you know, I know how to do this and I have the confidence to do it, having that energy is so helpful, you know. cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: I I remember when I didn't feel that way and how scary it was, how stressful it was, and to have that calm, quiet and humble authority of like, I know what I'm doing, I know how to do this. cathy: Yes. MaKenzie Fly: how how worth it that really really is. cathy: It is so empowering and it really shifts your mindset and your inner voice kind of from what we were talking about before of the person being like, I don't know how they do it, and that that they're so lucky, or it's like if you just have that mindset of I think it's just like putting your tail between your legs, is that the phrase? And just or putting your head down and just like MaKenzie Fly: Head down, yeah. cathy: doing the work. Whatever it is. Could I put my tail between MaKenzie Fly: You can also, I guess, put your put your tail. Do what you gotta do. cathy: work, you guys. No, I'm just kidding. MaKenzie Fly: Ha ha ha. cathy: At the risk of sounding like Kim Kardashian, but it's just you know, it's like on the one hand, I don't want to sugarcoat it. It's being successful is work. It's just like you you must do the work and enjoy like cho that's why it's like I'm I love what I do. I love it. I love all aspects of it. So if you're gonna do it, like do something you enjoy. But I think that people just get like really paralyzed and they see someone perhaps like me or equivalent and is like, I don't know how to get started. And just get started. Just production over perfection is one of my mantras. Just don't just start and start and it accumulates and builds over time. I'm not where I am because I, you know, started doing this a year ago. I'm where I am because I've been doing this for over two decades. So take a I and I coach when I lead my advanced yoga teacher training for yoga teachers. We have this discussion a lot. Like, I'm I'm always encouraging to take the long view, both with your students and with your career. Don't, don't go for those quick little wins, like take the long view. And just one step in front of the other and just do the work. And over time it accumulates, you know, and like, like I was saying earlier, I'm in this really nice season where all those years of putting my head down and doing the work, filming all those videos, MaKenzie Fly: Putting your tail between your legs. cathy: putting my tail between my legs, like is paying off. You know, it's like opportunities come in where I'm like, and maybe that's the other thing I want to say too about that marketing bucket that we didn't talk about. So there's the actual. you know, content or your methodology, your teaching, all this stuff. But then there's marketing. And I think there's this negative connotation with marketing, especially in the yoga world and stuff like that. And by marketing, I'm even talking about social media and posting, just being a present online and stuff. but the there's so much you can do online. And I feel like people sometimes jump the gun and they just want to sell or monetize. And it's like just if you just show up consistently and add value consistently online with social media, then you build trust in your niche. And then you can monetize once you've built that trust. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: So it's like trust first and then you monetize. And then the other thing about the you know, marketing and being online is like, If you continue to add value, people will see that. You don't never know who's watching and you will get opportunities, but you have to post. You have to show up, you know, consistently. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. I have to even have that have to be willing to be seen and have that level of visibility. And I feel like that's the first thing is like that willingness cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: to even be seen. And then that consistency piece part of consistently showing up and offering value. It's like all different, it's all different skills that do take a lot of time. Or at least that was my experience of working for cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: one and then working through the next. You know, it's progressive and it's layered. for sure. I think you're speaking to it now, but could you finish on discussing really your evolution on your career and how important it is to have this willingness to reinvent yourself or adapt to the times? I mean, so much of this conversation has already been that. But for yoga teachers who are listening who are really in a transition, or maybe they're like doing what they've always done and technically it's working, but they're soul is dying, like they hate it cathy: Mm. MaKenzie Fly: and they know they need to make some sort of shift. Are there any words of encouragement that you could offer on making a change and being bold, taking some sort of risk, doing something different, building their own thing, going online? What has really helped you in all those different seasons of your life? yeah, what what do you have to say on that? cathy: Hmm, that's a lot there. I mean, there there weren't MaKenzie Fly: Easy. Uneasy. cathy: even cell phones when I started teaching. Yeah. So let me just try to make this relevant to people today. No, I've yeah, to your point, there have been many different iterations and many times where I've evolved. I even shifted my social media persona, if you will, started out as like if you go way back to like 3,500 posts, you'll see. Just a person practicing, and I think a lot of people relate to this because you might be posting this, you know, your home practice, right? Just like posting clips of your home practice is what I would do. And I had a very, you know, I I was very interested in strong things like floating and inversions and handstands. And so I got known for that. And when I shifted to opening the yoga school. I made a very strategic move away from that. And I called my, I was like, I want to be known as the yoga expert. Like I want to be known for my alignment for yoga education. I want to be the person people go when they're like, wait, I actually want to learn why and how and I want to be that resource online. And so it was like a complete re rebrand. And so I guess. one thing I would say is there's a balance between what are your what are people out there telling you you're you're good at and what do you want to do in the world and how do you want to position yourself or what do you want to be known for? So MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. cathy: I I would sit with that question like what do I want to be known for? Like I want to be known for my yoga school and for alignment and this and that. I didn't want to be known for doing a handstand anymore, you know, at the time I that served me. and and so I would sit with a question like, what do you want to be known for? And I know that might sound oppositional to what I said earlier, which was solve people's problems, but MaKenzie Fly: Mm-hmm. cathy: both things are happening at the same I'm still solving the yoga student who's practicing at home. Who no one teaches them how to do triangle pose. I'm still solving their problem. I want to be known for alignment. I'm going to solve that student's problem, right? So what you want to be known for almost becomes your niche and it gets very specific to solving a very specific problem. So figuring out that so that when you do or if you are online, you aren't just sharing your practice. You are. putting all of that into content that produces value. and then, you know, there's gonna be a lot of times, this is one of the my themes in my social media content. I had a post that went crazy viral. It was like 65 million views. I know, it's like, and it was just like me in a super deep forward fold versus my current state at the time after a spine injury, which was like very bent knees and and showing showing the opposite of what people show on social media, which is a progression. I was showing a regression. And that struck a chord in so many people. And it was a time a few years ago where I was going through this big identity shift as a teacher because I was so injured I couldn't practice at all for a very for a long time. And I was realized how wrapped up I was in my identity of being a strong practitioner, you know. MaKenzie Fly: man, for sure. cathy: And it's like, well, now what do I do? Because I also still wanted to sell my teacher trainings and all these MaKenzie Fly: Okay. cathy: things, you know, it's like, so you know, for anyone going, I guess for anyone going through a big transition or a season of change or anything like that, what what that post showed me. Was the the thing I was scared most of was for people to see me unable to physically practice, was the thing that so many people related to. So oftentimes our biggest weaknesses are actually our differentiators from everyone else in the space. You know. MaKenzie Fly: Yes, that is such a good piece of advice. Yes. And when it comes to like wanting to be known for something or your zone of genius, sometimes too, it's hard for us to spot or even value because it is so second nature to us and it comes so easily cathy: Yes. MaKenzie Fly: to us that we're like, we're just like, you know, that's easy. Like it takes no time at all. And therefore we discount it or discredit it because it is so natural. To where somebody cathy: Mm-hmm. MaKenzie Fly: else who really struggles with that really highly values it because it's so not natural to them. So I think that's another piece to that as well. That the thing that scares you the most or makes you feel a little vulnerable, the weak, the cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: weak link, like being it, and also when it is something that is like just like breathing, you know, are are indicators for where that lies. cathy: Mm, yeah. Micro. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. my gosh, you are so much fun. You're so fun. You're so you're so easy to talk to. And I just really, I really appreciate you being here, Kathy, and all that you've shared. And like I said, you're just such a lighthouse to so many of us of how to do this in a way that is online that's so authentic, that's so real, but also positioned in such a professional way that does ultimately lead to something. And I know I I feel like I maybe want to invite you back on to have a whole conversation on just marketing. cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: yeah. So thank you. cathy: I could talk about that forever. I just I don't I just love it. I love it. Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah. And and so many yoga teachers need to learn how to do it in a way that does feel like in service and does feel like it's that it's natural, you know, and there's such a way. There is a way that exists to do that, you know? Yeah. cathy: Yes, there is. Yeah. Marketing just has such a bad association for whatever reason, but it really is, I believe it equals service. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: Yeah, I I agree. So let's transition into like marketing and and talking to where they can plug into your stuff. Like if they're vibing with what you're saying, they want to do that boot camp or maybe some of your online yoga teacher trainings. Show us what it looks like to excitedly talk about your work, to cathy: Yeah. MaKenzie Fly: invite somebody into their into your sphere. cathy: Yeah, double thank you. Well, you can follow me anywhere, Kathy with a C Madeo Yoga, Kathy Madeo Yoga, everywhere and I on my website as well. And I do have an online yoga school where I teach 200-hour and 300-hour yoga alliance approved teacher trainings. I also have 14 online yoga series, anything from beginner yoga to flexibility, splits, handstands, anatomy, yen. There's something for everyone there. And then the social media boot camp actually came out of a demand from my graduates ask looking to me saying, wait, you did it and we want to do it. Can you teach and we trust you? This is back to that point of tr build trust with people and then you can sell them anything. So it's like, I'm not even a social media coach and now I'm teaching social media because they trust me, right? So I also lead a 60-day call the social media boot camp, where my promise, my brand promise, is to turn you from a passive scroller into a content creator in 60 days. And I always say with that, if you just do what I say, you will grow. Just do what I say, you will grow. MaKenzie Fly: Just do it. cathy: Put your head down, tail between your legs, and do it. MaKenzie Fly: that is so awesome. Well, I'm so excited to check these things out, the boot camp, especially. And for sure, I'll link everything in the show notes. If you're listening and you love Kathy, you want to jump into your work to her world. If you love this episode, dear listener, it would be amazing if you could share it with one of your yoga teacher friends just to let them know that you were thinking about them. Thank you for coming back each and every Wednesday. And thank you again, Kathy, for jumping on the show. cathy: Thanks, Mackenzie. MaKenzie Fly: Yes. Until next week. Namaste, everybody. Bye.