Transcript

Fear · Why We Do What We Do

0:22
Speaker 1: Welcome to Why We Do What We Do, our Halloween edition.
0:26
Speaker 1: I am your Terrified host Abraham.
0:30
Speaker 2: And I am your fearful host Shane.
0:33
Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
0:36
Speaker 1: the things that humans do, and animals do and monsters do.
0:42
Speaker 1: In the month of October, we celebrate to the spookier
0:45
Speaker 1: things in psychology by talking about them. And there's a
0:50
Speaker 1: lot of human things that are spooky and scary that
0:52
Speaker 1: we can talk about.
0:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of the things that humans are
0:56
Speaker 2: very afraid of is emotions.
0:58
Speaker 1: That they can be for sure, and one of the
1:01
Speaker 1: emotions that they have is to be afraid of things.
1:04
Speaker 1: So here we are.
1:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at that. Look isn't that funny how that works?
1:09
Speaker 2: I think? Didn't Watson say that like the three main
1:13
Speaker 2: human emotions were anger, fear, and joy or something like that.
1:17
Speaker 1: It was something like that, Yeah, yeah, I mean.
1:19
Speaker 2: Not that we're taking advice from him, but you.
1:21
Speaker 1: Know, no, no, And I think it was like the
1:23
Speaker 1: ones that are the we're biologically prepared to experience, and
1:27
Speaker 1: then after that we like learn everything else was kind
1:30
Speaker 1: of his his suggestion.
1:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, as he was like banging pots and pans around
1:33
Speaker 2: a rabbit, you know.
1:35
Speaker 1: I should have talked about that in this episode, but
1:38
Speaker 1: we did a full episode already on Watson's Little Albert experiment.
1:43
Speaker 2: So yeah, and Watson himself, Yes.
1:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, we did all right. So maybe well
1:50
Speaker 1: we've already mentioned it. Maybe that's enough. Maybe we'll come
1:52
Speaker 1: back to it. I don't know. In the meantime, If
1:55
Speaker 1: you're thank you for joining us listeners. If you are here,
1:59
Speaker 1: this is your first time finding your way to our podcast. Welcome.
2:03
Speaker 1: We are very happy to have you here. Yes, I'd
2:06
Speaker 1: like to wish you a happy Balloons around the World's
2:09
Speaker 1: Day on this October second.
2:12
Speaker 2: Yes, it is also Coffee with a Cop Day. However,
2:15
Speaker 2: everybody takes their coffee. That's your choice, that's all I'm saying.
2:19
Speaker 1: Fair Guardian Angels Day.
2:22
Speaker 2: Yes, it's also International Day of Nonviolence.
2:24
Speaker 1: Love that, yes, love that so much? All about that?
2:28
Speaker 1: All right? National Custodial Workers'.
2:30
Speaker 2: Day, yep, National Fried Scallops Day or scallops depending on
2:35
Speaker 2: where you're from. Scallops, it's correct, scallops, scallops is right,
2:40
Speaker 2: we know that.
2:41
Speaker 1: For Shane it is Audio file Day, and I mean
2:44
Speaker 1: for all of you, whoever you know, any one of
2:46
Speaker 1: our listeners. I don't know you. You could be an audiophile.
2:48
Speaker 1: This is just a day of recognition for those who
2:51
Speaker 1: who really prefer that high fidelity sound in their life.
2:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, or for those of you who really hate when
2:58
Speaker 2: one of us smacks our lips while we're talking, like
3:00
Speaker 2: that's you know, yeah that you're like, oh no, or
3:03
Speaker 2: you're telling us to get a different mic.
3:04
Speaker 1: Anyway, we did an episode on that too.
3:06
Speaker 2: We did, We did. We've putted a lot of stuff
3:08
Speaker 2: over the last like eight hundred years. It's also National
3:12
Speaker 2: Produce Missing Day, very specific.
3:15
Speaker 1: I'm trying to imagine the conversation where someone was like,
3:18
Speaker 1: I strongly advocate that we apply to make it a
3:22
Speaker 1: holiday for a missing produce Like where, yeah, yeah, when
3:27
Speaker 1: did the conversation happen? Who was involved? What were their arguments?
3:30
Speaker 2: I want to know, Yeah, for sure, I want to
3:32
Speaker 2: know too.
3:33
Speaker 1: If you listener, were a part of that, please right end.
3:36
Speaker 1: It is National kale Day, speaking of missing.
3:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. We can stop doing kale chips though
3:43
Speaker 2: we don't need kale chips anymore.
3:44
Speaker 1: Oh I like kale chips.
3:46
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, you can have those, only only Abraham's
3:49
Speaker 2: allowed to have them. It is uh National Name your
3:52
Speaker 2: Card Day. And in light of that, go listen to
3:54
Speaker 2: the song Maboo by Pup or Fox by Milancholin.
3:59
Speaker 1: Oh wow, you've got multiple car names songs like right
4:06
Speaker 1: right off the top of the repertoire. That is impressive.
4:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, or go read Christine by Stephen King.
4:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe a street car named Desire or Herbie. Yeah. Wow,
4:19
Speaker 1: I did not expect us to go down that rabbit hole.
4:22
Speaker 2: All right.
4:23
Speaker 1: It is National Pumpkin Seed Day.
4:26
Speaker 2: I love that. Such a good snack. It is National
4:29
Speaker 2: Research Maniac's Food Day.
4:32
Speaker 1: All right, fair enough. It is Peanuts Day or Snoopy Day.
4:35
Speaker 1: It's yeah, celebrate Snoopy okay, sweet? Yeah, so the comics.
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Speaker 1: I mean you can also celebrate peanuts. Those are great,
4:42
Speaker 1: but you're not allergic to them. But the peanuts, the comics, Peanuts.
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Speaker 2: I like peanuts. It's Random Acts of Poetry Day, which
4:52
Speaker 2: is kind of fun.
4:54
Speaker 1: Yes, or rap?
4:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah that works too. Yeah.
5:00
Speaker 1: Walk to School Day, I mean walking is good. Be safe?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, walking is good. Be safe. It's also a World
5:08
Speaker 2: No Alcohol Day. Love that.
5:10
Speaker 1: Yeah?
5:10
Speaker 2: Done?
5:11
Speaker 1: Check, mission accomplished.
5:12
Speaker 2: Yep, nailed it.
5:13
Speaker 1: Active Aging Week, well, that is my week. Every week Yep.
5:18
Speaker 2: I'm actively aging all the time.
5:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not being active, but I am aging by.
5:23
Speaker 2: The nature of living. We are right. Yes, it's also
5:27
Speaker 2: getting the world to beat a path to your door week.
5:29
Speaker 2: We have talked about this before. I feel like this
5:31
Speaker 2: is a week that's come up multiple times. I do.
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Speaker 1: I feel yeah, it has. Yeah, we've talked about that.
5:36
Speaker 2: Hmm.
5:36
Speaker 1: National Chimney Safety Week, no more chimney sweeps.
5:39
Speaker 2: Nope, no, nope. It's National Drive Electric Week.
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Speaker 1: It's fun. I don't know how you're going to do
5:44
Speaker 1: that if you don't already have a mode of transportation
5:47
Speaker 1: that does that.
5:48
Speaker 2: But maybe just I guess you could rent a car.
5:51
Speaker 1: Oh you could run one. Yeah, maybe you uh yeah,
5:54
Speaker 1: maybe you just bought an electric car. But congrats, I
5:57
Speaker 1: guess if you did. Yeah, National Fall Fully this is
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Speaker 1: a good week for that. And I do love me
6:02
Speaker 1: some fall foliage.
6:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have that here in Florida. We don't
6:05
Speaker 2: have That's it's always shark week though it's also National
6:10
Speaker 2: and Vegetarian Awareness Week. Love that.
6:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. Trick a Tillomania skin picking and related bfr B
6:17
Speaker 1: Awareness Week.
6:19
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I've worked with some folks that have tricatillomania
6:22
Speaker 2: and it's a whole lot. Yeah, it's National Chili Month.
6:25
Speaker 2: I love chili, so I'm excited about.
6:27
Speaker 1: That awesome world Menopause month, the whole world, The whole
6:32
Speaker 1: world's happening.
6:33
Speaker 2: It's National Sensory Processing Awareness Month as well.
6:36
Speaker 1: It is Breast Cancer Awareness Month, very important.
6:39
Speaker 2: Very important. It's also a vegetarian month also very important.
6:43
Speaker 1: Oh man, we got through all those holidays. There was
6:45
Speaker 1: so many that was that was a list, the list,
6:50
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, that does everything does want to fall
6:53
Speaker 1: in the first of the month.
6:55
Speaker 2: Yea.
6:55
Speaker 1: Anyway, as I mentioned, we are actually a psychology podcast,
6:59
Speaker 1: although we enjoy reading the holidays to just celebrate the
7:02
Speaker 1: fact that our podcast publishes on a day, and that
7:06
Speaker 1: day is a day that somebody has chosen for something
7:09
Speaker 1: that is a cause important to them, such as misting
7:11
Speaker 1: vegetables in a grocery store.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: But, as I mentioned, we are in our spooky season,
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Speaker 1: which means it is is the season for fear, horror, terror,
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Speaker 1: and fun.
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Speaker 2: Yes, we love it. So we today are going to
7:25
Speaker 2: talk about the concept and idea of fear itself. We
7:29
Speaker 2: have done a few of these series where we have
7:32
Speaker 2: talked about some different topics in our spooky seasons, We've
7:35
Speaker 2: unpacked some very specific topics, different diagnoses, different experiences, different
7:40
Speaker 2: circumstances and situations, But ultimately it comes down to the
7:43
Speaker 2: idea that we are fearful creatures. And so fear is
7:48
Speaker 2: one of the most basic emotions and arguably one of
7:50
Speaker 2: the most powerful emotions that we have, and it will
7:52
Speaker 2: also underlie pretty much everything that we talk about for
7:56
Speaker 2: this Halloween themed month of episodes. So everything that we're
7:59
Speaker 2: going to talk about is going to be related to
8:00
Speaker 2: fear in some way.
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Speaker 1: So we needed to understand it and have a good
8:05
Speaker 1: baseline amount of knowledge that we could then refer back
8:10
Speaker 1: to this discussion that we are having right now. So
8:13
Speaker 1: pay close attention because this will be your homework for
8:16
Speaker 1: the next three or four weeks.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, absolutely, get ready take notes.
8:22
Speaker 1: Okay, which means that, of course it is time for
8:25
Speaker 1: our textbook deconstruction of something that maybe is interesting or
8:30
Speaker 1: intriguing and distilling it down into something that is not.
8:34
Speaker 1: But I believe that we'll be able to at the
8:36
Speaker 1: very least provide a new framework for thinking about this
8:40
Speaker 1: emotion fear that at least might be thought provoking. It
8:44
Speaker 1: might have you thinking about it, and I'm a little
8:46
Speaker 1: bit different of a way than maybe you have in
8:48
Speaker 1: the past.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully. So we are going to unpack the idea
8:53
Speaker 2: of fear. So we're going to ask a question of
8:56
Speaker 2: what is fear and why do we do it?
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Speaker 1: Yes, cham what are your what are you afraid of?
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Speaker 2: Zombies?
9:04
Speaker 1: What are you afraid of your day to day zombies?
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Speaker 2: So you know, it's funny. I think about this a lot.
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Speaker 2: I don't know that I have anything that like I
9:10
Speaker 2: would consider or qualify as an explicit fear that's like
9:14
Speaker 2: kind of out of the normal range. Like I feel like,
9:18
Speaker 2: you know, like I fear like losing my kids and
9:20
Speaker 2: like losing my family and stuff like that. Like I
9:21
Speaker 2: think those are fairly normal, fairly standard fair I have.
9:25
Speaker 2: I wouldn't call it a fear, but I have a
9:26
Speaker 2: healthy respect of nature. So like, sharks don't scare me
9:32
Speaker 2: per se, but like I definitely try to avoid them.
9:35
Speaker 2: You know, it's like I go, I don't need I
9:37
Speaker 2: don't need to do this. I don't really know. I mean,
9:42
Speaker 2: I I would imagine that certain circumstances would make me fearful,
9:45
Speaker 2: but I don't know that I have like an outright
9:48
Speaker 2: standard fear xenomorphs. Maybe that's the other one, xenomorphs like
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Speaker 2: Alien the movie, the movie, The Aliens movie scared the
9:55
Speaker 2: hell out of me when I was a kid, So
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Speaker 2: I think that's probably the other one. Okay, not helpful. Sorry,
10:00
Speaker 2: doesn't answer your question at all.
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Speaker 1: That's okay, ID three you on the spot. I didn't
10:04
Speaker 1: tell you I was going to ask, but I wanted
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Speaker 1: to idea because I was sort of looking around to
10:08
Speaker 1: try and find like one of the most common fears.
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Speaker 1: There do not seem to be any empirically derived lists
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Speaker 1: of the most common fears. I know. I've talked about mine,
10:19
Speaker 1: which is a fear of water and mostly the things
10:21
Speaker 1: that are in water that see me as a delicious
10:25
Speaker 1: snack for the day.
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Speaker 2: Well, I see you as a delicious snack, but I'm
10:28
Speaker 2: not in the water, So I mean maybe that's it
10:30
Speaker 2: must be water based.
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Speaker 1: Yes, it's the water that's really good. The creatures in
10:38
Speaker 1: the ocean, some of them are so large that, like,
10:42
Speaker 1: I feel like they would yawn and swallow me and
10:44
Speaker 1: wouldn't even notice. Sure, I am perfectly respectful of them
10:48
Speaker 1: having their space, and I will just stay out of
10:50
Speaker 1: their space and that is sure, that seems reasonable to me.
10:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
10:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I found a lot of different lists with
10:56
Speaker 1: a lot of different suggestions about what the most common
10:58
Speaker 1: fears are. But they really income a sort of range
11:01
Speaker 1: of things that include real dangers things where you are
11:05
Speaker 1: actually could be seriously injured or killed, which includes things
11:09
Speaker 1: like heights, certain animals, potentially small spaces, and then really
11:14
Speaker 1: intense emotions that are related to fear, such as disgust, embarrassment,
11:19
Speaker 1: and the unfamiliar or grotesque imagery. And so those are
11:23
Speaker 1: some of the common categories of things that people tend
11:27
Speaker 1: to be afraid of.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you that you'll hear people talk about when
11:31
Speaker 2: they have like their common fears, things like public speaking,
11:35
Speaker 2: new foods, small spaces. Blood. Blood's never really been a
11:39
Speaker 2: thing that's bothered me. I've been like, I don't know
11:41
Speaker 2: that I want to touch it. But it's one that
11:43
Speaker 2: doesn't like scare me.
11:44
Speaker 1: You know, it didn't used to and it now is
11:47
Speaker 1: starting to, and I don't love that for me. Oh interesting, Okay,
11:52
Speaker 1: There's also another fear that's really common is the fear
11:55
Speaker 1: of being alone. Heights. As I mentioned, so being in
11:59
Speaker 1: high places a lot of the predatory animals. Snakes are
12:02
Speaker 1: really common, sharks are really common, spiders are on there,
12:05
Speaker 1: alligators alligators, Yeah, and then clowns and that that's the
12:10
Speaker 1: grotesque imagery I was talking about.
12:13
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah, and we are going to talk about
12:14
Speaker 2: that on a mini so that's gonna be fun.
12:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, we haven't you know, I'm not going to give
12:20
Speaker 1: away the sort of mini theme that we went with
12:24
Speaker 1: this year and maybe for all future years. I don't know.
12:26
Speaker 1: We'll have to see. We'll na when we get to
12:29
Speaker 1: our Minis this for this Halloween season?
12:31
Speaker 2: Yes, we will. So I think maybe before we get
12:35
Speaker 2: into definitions, we'll probably I'm just gonna just drop it here.
12:38
Speaker 2: I think we maybe do a quick ad break because
12:40
Speaker 2: I think we're going to unpack a little bit. I
12:43
Speaker 2: know it's a little bit early in the eye break.
12:45
Speaker 2: I know maybe you fear ads, but I think at
12:47
Speaker 2: the end of the day it might be good so
12:49
Speaker 2: that we can have like a continuous discussion about the
12:52
Speaker 2: definition of fear. So quick gabbreak. Sorry to scary about
12:56
Speaker 2: this jump scared maybe even if you want to call it,
12:58
Speaker 2: but we'll be right back.
13:07
Speaker 1: Let's try to define fear. We always need to start
13:11
Speaker 1: by unpacking our subject matter by having a agreed upon
13:14
Speaker 1: definition from which we can work because sure it is
13:17
Speaker 1: important to know our terms. That we need to know
13:20
Speaker 1: what is and what is not the thing that we
13:22
Speaker 1: are talking about, and it is one of the pieces
13:26
Speaker 1: of a basic critical thinking exercise sometimes where you can
13:29
Speaker 1: already start to rule in how you can think about
13:32
Speaker 1: something more effectively by saying, like, what should I be
13:36
Speaker 1: thinking about? What can I rule out right now? As
13:38
Speaker 1: a waste of time? So let's talk about fear. And
13:41
Speaker 1: then one important thing to begin with is that pinning
13:44
Speaker 1: down a definition is kind of trickier than it sounds,
13:48
Speaker 1: and that's actually fairly common for things that feel intuitive
13:52
Speaker 1: to us, that feel like we don't even need to
13:55
Speaker 1: define it because we all know what it is, and
13:58
Speaker 1: hence the need for definition that we if we feel
14:02
Speaker 1: like we don't need to define it, then we definitely
14:04
Speaker 1: need to define it, and it can be trickier to
14:07
Speaker 1: do so. Of course, we can go the circular route
14:10
Speaker 1: with our definition by saying that fear is feeling afraid,
14:15
Speaker 1: all right.
14:15
Speaker 2: And how do you know you're afraid? You feel it?
14:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, ah, exactly, and we must ask what is feeling
14:21
Speaker 1: afraid and then we get nowhere. So that is, feeling
14:25
Speaker 1: afraid is not a good definition of fear. It is
14:28
Speaker 1: logically useless, right.
14:31
Speaker 2: So we can similarly apply synonyms to fear, such as
14:34
Speaker 2: feeling horror, terror, disturbed, and scared, but again we would
14:39
Speaker 2: have to define all these. So we could make the
14:40
Speaker 2: case that fear is a sense of danger or threat.
14:44
Speaker 2: Now we need to unpack danger and threat. But this
14:47
Speaker 2: is a better definition because fear definitely is an emotional state,
14:51
Speaker 2: and applying the label of threatened is a workable enough start.
14:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Now. The one thing though, that some people
14:59
Speaker 1: who I'm I'm hoping are actually are sort of naysaying
15:03
Speaker 1: out there might be pointing out, but we can be
15:05
Speaker 1: afraid of things that are not necessarily dangers or threats
15:10
Speaker 1: or even happening to us. In fact, for example, I
15:13
Speaker 1: can be afraid of missing a flight. I am not
15:17
Speaker 1: in that situation actually endangered. I'm not threatened, but I
15:20
Speaker 1: do feel a sensation that is similar to what I
15:23
Speaker 1: feel when there's a real threat, Like if I were
15:26
Speaker 1: in the ocean and I were to see a shark
15:28
Speaker 1: swimming near me. I mean, it's not the same exactly,
15:31
Speaker 1: but it is similar, right, Right, And further, I can
15:34
Speaker 1: be afraid for someone else. I can be afraid that
15:36
Speaker 1: someone I care about is going to lose their job
15:38
Speaker 1: if that was a thing that was going to happen.
15:41
Speaker 1: And this is not an immediate danger or threat, and
15:45
Speaker 1: it's not a thing that really impacts me at all,
15:47
Speaker 1: at least not directly. Yet I can still feel that
15:50
Speaker 1: similar sensation of fear, right.
15:53
Speaker 2: Absolutely so. People with anxiety sometimes fear being afraid, which
15:58
Speaker 2: feels wild, or they have a fear about a wide
16:01
Speaker 2: variety of things that could happen at any given moment,
16:04
Speaker 2: or even just a general sense of worry or fear.
16:07
Speaker 2: So as somebody who has anxiety, I definitely have a
16:11
Speaker 2: general sense of worry right about everything. I wonder myself
16:15
Speaker 2: because I know because I think about this, like having anxiety,
16:19
Speaker 2: is this kind of like this general feeling of something's
16:22
Speaker 2: going to go wrong? What if? What if? What if? Right? Yeah,
16:26
Speaker 2: I don't have the fear part of it because I
16:29
Speaker 2: don't I language around it, like I try to language
16:32
Speaker 2: really specifically about the sensation I'm feeling like, I feel nervous,
16:35
Speaker 2: I feel worried, I have those things, But I feel
16:38
Speaker 2: like fear is another level, and that's maybe where I
16:40
Speaker 2: struggle with defining it in my own life. And that's
16:42
Speaker 2: why I'm afraid of zombies and not like everyday thing
16:47
Speaker 2: that's just my own personal like experience around it or
16:50
Speaker 2: like processing around it, you know what I mean.
16:52
Speaker 1: I always had a joke I enjoyed when I was
16:54
Speaker 1: teaching psych one on one. I used to say the
16:56
Speaker 1: quote I want to say it was from JFK. I
16:58
Speaker 1: should have looked this up, yeah, but it was the
17:00
Speaker 1: quote that's said, the only thing we have to fear
17:03
Speaker 1: is fear itself. And when teaching this class, I'd say
17:06
Speaker 1: that sounds like generalized anxiety disorder.
17:10
Speaker 2: It certainly does. That is that is exactly what it is.
17:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought that was a pretty good joke.
17:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. I do appreciate that joke. It was
17:19
Speaker 2: FDR that said that.
17:20
Speaker 1: Oh thank you, okay, good. I could hear it in
17:22
Speaker 1: JFK's voice, and I was like, but I don't think
17:25
Speaker 1: it was JFK, but I just only hear it in
17:27
Speaker 1: his affect.
17:29
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, anyway, I do like the idea of you
17:32
Speaker 2: your inner dialogue just being nothing but JFK going forward.
17:38
Speaker 2: That is a fun that's a fun thought experiment, like
17:40
Speaker 2: what do we having for Lanjaya? Indeed, yeah, sould be good.
17:46
Speaker 2: So let's go with Let's go with a dictionary definition.
17:50
Speaker 2: The Dictionary definition of fear is a strong emotional state
17:53
Speaker 2: caused by the anticipation or awareness of danger. If it
17:57
Speaker 2: is caused by anticipation, what caused the intiatient? Therein lies
18:01
Speaker 2: the real cause of behavior, not another behavior, but the
18:05
Speaker 2: thing that preceded the anticipation. So we need to know
18:07
Speaker 2: a little bit about what triggered or evoked that feeling.
18:11
Speaker 1: Right, This is just one of the most basic exercises
18:14
Speaker 1: that I think is one of the easy things that
18:18
Speaker 1: I think I learned early on in my training in
18:20
Speaker 1: the field that a lot of people don't necessarily think about.
18:24
Speaker 1: They'll say, oh, fear is caused by anticipation, and they say, okay,
18:30
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, I anticipate this thing, and therefore
18:33
Speaker 1: I am afraid. And I think again, anticipation, and like,
18:40
Speaker 1: I think I could make the case that the anticipation
18:42
Speaker 1: is the fear, right, Like, how do we draw a
18:45
Speaker 1: boundary between one of those things where one is the
18:47
Speaker 1: cause and the other is the effect? Right, And instead
18:50
Speaker 1: it makes the most sense to me to say, like,
18:52
Speaker 1: there's there's a jumble of emotional things that are going
18:55
Speaker 1: on in there, and that's great. But if we then
18:58
Speaker 1: go to what was the thing that evoked the anticipation,
19:02
Speaker 1: now we can speak to what is the circumstance that
19:06
Speaker 1: has produced this fear? Sure, and so rather than anticipation
19:10
Speaker 1: causing fear, it is the thing that caused the anticipation,
19:14
Speaker 1: because again I sort of think the anticipation is the fear, right,
19:17
Speaker 1: even if there were separate things that are in there,
19:20
Speaker 1: the fact is that again we can always point like
19:23
Speaker 1: that didn't come out of nowhere. It was evoked by
19:26
Speaker 1: some circumstance, and so we can point to that, and
19:28
Speaker 1: that now tells us a lot more about what's going
19:30
Speaker 1: on for that person and is a lot more informative,
19:32
Speaker 1: both diagnostically and for treatment. So that's why I like
19:36
Speaker 1: to make that definition. Anyway, Yeah, we'll get more into
19:40
Speaker 1: that in a second. Fear is an emotion, which means
19:42
Speaker 1: that is a thing we do, and if it's a
19:44
Speaker 1: thing we do, that means it's behavior, and all behavior
19:47
Speaker 1: is influenced by our history of learning, are prevailing circumstances,
19:50
Speaker 1: the biological relevance to us and our evolutionary history. Those
19:53
Speaker 1: are all of the factors that are always present in
19:56
Speaker 1: everything we always do.
19:57
Speaker 2: Ever, right, So, behaviorally, then fear is behavior that is
20:01
Speaker 2: motivated by avoidance or escape from a situation or contextual
20:04
Speaker 2: features of a situation that have historically preceded aversives. So
20:09
Speaker 2: the idea is there's an aversive and there are related
20:13
Speaker 2: events or related context or related stimuli to that aversive,
20:17
Speaker 2: and so we engage in some type of behavior to
20:20
Speaker 2: avoid that on some level. Right, So, like fear is
20:24
Speaker 2: almost like a behavior that is escape maintained.
20:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, or avoidance. And the other thing is like we
20:30
Speaker 1: do not have to be very well aware that that's
20:34
Speaker 1: like the sequence of things that are going on. We're
20:36
Speaker 1: not actively thinking through that reminds me of this one
20:39
Speaker 1: thing that was a bad day I had once. It's
20:42
Speaker 1: as quick and as automatic as that thing that once
20:47
Speaker 1: had a historical pairing of a thing that did that
20:52
Speaker 1: was dangerous or threatening. Like as soon as I see
20:56
Speaker 1: the thing that's related that cue, then I'm immediately have
21:00
Speaker 1: that association with that previous experience, So I don't have
21:04
Speaker 1: to think about, like what does that remind me of? Oh,
21:06
Speaker 1: a thing. Oh, I now feel fear. It's a totally unconscious,
21:09
Speaker 1: automatic process that occurs just by a history of context
21:13
Speaker 1: around those things. Right, And we will speak to the
21:16
Speaker 1: fact that there are plenty of fears that we have
21:18
Speaker 1: that are about things that will never contact or experience,
21:22
Speaker 1: or we will only once because it's the last thing we.
21:24
Speaker 2: Ever do, right exactly.
21:26
Speaker 1: I chose to use the term aversives here just to
21:29
Speaker 1: say something unpleasant, non appetitive, if you will, sure, just
21:36
Speaker 1: because I feel like it doesn't have to be pain.
21:37
Speaker 1: Pain can be there, and pain, I think is a
21:40
Speaker 1: very interesting discussion in its own right. But you also
21:43
Speaker 1: have like contrasting this with anger, annoyance, boredom, all of
21:49
Speaker 1: those are other emotions that are also motivated by terminating
21:52
Speaker 1: the situation, often aggressively, by changing the situation or producing
21:57
Speaker 1: more stimulating or entertaining circumstances, respectively. With respect to those emotions,
22:03
Speaker 1: but just trying to say, like, if we're going to
22:04
Speaker 1: use this definition of behavior that is motivated by escape
22:07
Speaker 1: or avoidance, there are a lot of emotions that we
22:09
Speaker 1: have that are motivated by escaping or avoiding, but are
22:14
Speaker 1: not necessarily related directly to pain, and are also not
22:17
Speaker 1: all fear. But we're trying to unpack fear here, which
22:21
Speaker 1: again is the contextual features that have preceded those aversives
22:25
Speaker 1: in the past, right, right, right.
22:27
Speaker 2: So let's talk about what happens to our bodies, because
22:31
Speaker 2: I think that with grow hair getsmele great, Yeah, we
22:34
Speaker 2: get Yeah, it's gross. Oh it's like, I don't know,
22:37
Speaker 2: I don't. Bodies are so strange, it's so fun.
22:40
Speaker 1: Stop using calories and they just turn into fat.
22:44
Speaker 2: It tells yeah, storage gross. I don't like it. So
22:49
Speaker 2: the physiology of fear, what is actually happening inside of
22:52
Speaker 2: our bodies when we are when we start feeling fear
22:56
Speaker 2: or engaging in fear related behavior. Well, when we feel fear,
23:00
Speaker 2: we experience some of those specific psychological or physiological responses
23:04
Speaker 2: when we interpret something as dangerous, and there's a lot
23:07
Speaker 2: to unpack in what that means or how we interpret,
23:09
Speaker 2: but for now, it happens. So what happens next. So basically,
23:14
Speaker 2: some stimulus triggers a fear response. Let's unpack it that way.
23:19
Speaker 2: Our amignala, a small almond shaped brain structure believed to
23:22
Speaker 2: connect memory and emotion, is stimulated and activates the hypothalamus.
23:27
Speaker 2: The hypothalamus activates the endocrine system to release epiephrin and
23:31
Speaker 2: no eperneffrin from our adrenal glands.
23:33
Speaker 1: These chemicals have very specific effects that you'll recognize. Epinephrine
23:38
Speaker 1: ques a number of responses, such as increased breathing, so
23:42
Speaker 1: our lungs will expand and contract more to bring in
23:45
Speaker 1: more oxygen perspiration. Dilated pupils will have a faster heart rate,
23:51
Speaker 1: our muscles will tense up. Essentially, it's like prepare for battle,
23:56
Speaker 1: uh huh. And further, other systems that our body are
24:00
Speaker 1: that seem I guess unnecessary to a dangerous situation will
24:04
Speaker 1: sort of be put on pause, or our digestion will
24:06
Speaker 1: slow down considerably in other related systems that are not
24:10
Speaker 1: necessarily important for survival in that moment.
24:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, Basically, your body shuts down all the unnecessary systems
24:17
Speaker 2: and reallocates all of its energy and all of its
24:19
Speaker 2: resources to the systems that will keep you alive.
24:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a lot of get out of the situation
24:24
Speaker 1: type stuff, which could be yeah, fight or flight or
24:29
Speaker 1: freeze freeze.
24:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure. So if the sense of danger remains, the
24:34
Speaker 2: next step is that the pituitary gland releases chemicals that
24:37
Speaker 2: signal the adrinal glands to produce cortisol. This hormone affects
24:41
Speaker 2: how different organisms affect blood glucose levels, which in turn
24:45
Speaker 2: give your body an extra bump of energy and keeps
24:48
Speaker 2: you on high alert.
24:49
Speaker 1: Yes, and then after that, of course, assuming that you
24:52
Speaker 1: have escaped or the situation has wound down, or eventually
24:56
Speaker 1: you just burned out, which can also happen to your
24:59
Speaker 1: body will unwine and from the sort of various activated systems.
25:03
Speaker 1: I did have a fun little thing when I was
25:05
Speaker 1: teaching psych one on one to try and help streamline
25:09
Speaker 1: the fight or flight thing and the amygdalah. I'd say,
25:12
Speaker 1: it's the four fs, fight, flight, freeze, and make in love.
25:20
Speaker 2: That's my motto. That's what I live by. Are the
25:23
Speaker 2: four fs.
25:24
Speaker 1: Chaine's next tattoo.
25:26
Speaker 2: That's it, the four fs.
25:28
Speaker 1: All right, So we have talked about, we have defined fear.
25:32
Speaker 1: We have talked through a vary, stimulating and interesting description
25:37
Speaker 1: of the biology of fear as it relates to the
25:42
Speaker 1: things that will actually feel like what our body is
25:44
Speaker 1: doing physically, the real observable things we only actually don't
25:48
Speaker 1: have a ton left, but we do need to talk about,
25:50
Speaker 1: essentially the philosophy of how we interpret and understand fear
25:56
Speaker 1: from a psychological lens. And again, don't fear the commercials.
26:08
Speaker 1: Let's start to get into the philosophy of fear.
26:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love Philosophy of fear. It's my favorite book.
26:16
Speaker 2: So there are oracle musings on fear that include a
26:19
Speaker 2: number of speculative hypotheses. And let's start with Freud. Freud
26:24
Speaker 2: called this realistic anxiety, moral anxiety, and neurotic anxiety because
26:28
Speaker 2: you liked things in threes and these were varying levels
26:31
Speaker 2: of fear. Right, so this was like, you know, realistic
26:33
Speaker 2: anxiety was kind of like day to day stuff. Moral
26:36
Speaker 2: anxiety gets a little bit more nebulous than neurotic anxiety
26:39
Speaker 2: is when you're about to explode.
26:41
Speaker 1: Right Yeah, And I mean I don't know if it
26:44
Speaker 1: was necessarily an intensity scale, but it was like different domains.
26:49
Speaker 1: Like the realistic anxiety is like real present danger, like
26:55
Speaker 1: there's a bear, a cocaine bear, maybe sure nearby. The
26:59
Speaker 1: moral anxiety had more to do with like shame and guilt,
27:02
Speaker 1: and then the neurotic anxiety had to do with a
27:06
Speaker 1: loss of control, sort of emotional breakdown. Freud did use
27:11
Speaker 1: the German word for fear but for some reason it
27:15
Speaker 1: got translated as anxiety and his writings, but that's more
27:19
Speaker 1: or less how we talked about so maybe he even
27:21
Speaker 1: called it realistic fear, moral fear, and neurotic fear. So anyway,
27:25
Speaker 1: it's kind of illuminating just to see that those are
27:28
Speaker 1: treated by some as being interchangeable ideas, and I do
27:32
Speaker 1: understand that more or less, but I think that's just unpacking,
27:36
Speaker 1: and that's how it was talked about.
27:38
Speaker 2: Right right, Okay, that makes more sense. I got you.
27:41
Speaker 1: Okay. Another one who a famous psychologist we have talked
27:45
Speaker 1: about on this show before, did a whole episode on him.
27:48
Speaker 1: In fact, his bio pod was William James, and William
27:54
Speaker 1: James had an interesting take on emotions that has not
27:58
Speaker 1: stood the test of time, I think, but he offered
28:01
Speaker 1: that fear was an emotion born from the behavior itself,
28:05
Speaker 1: and he gave what has now become at least in
28:09
Speaker 1: reference to his work, a kind of classic example that
28:12
Speaker 1: when we see a bear charging at us, we run.
28:16
Speaker 1: But his argument here is that we feel fear because
28:19
Speaker 1: we do fear behavior, in this case running sure, That is,
28:23
Speaker 1: we feel fear because we run, We run at first,
28:27
Speaker 1: then feel afraid second. Others argue instead that we run
28:31
Speaker 1: because we feel fear. But others have pointed out that
28:35
Speaker 1: we might not move at all and yet feel fear.
28:38
Speaker 1: So what the direction of the cause and effect relationship
28:42
Speaker 1: between the action and the emotion. They were trying to
28:46
Speaker 1: pin it down somewhere, and it's just you can't do
28:51
Speaker 1: that explicitly because it shows up different ways for different
28:54
Speaker 1: people in different situations.
28:56
Speaker 2: Right right, that makes sense. So doing behaviors is to
29:00
Speaker 2: you fearful things certainly can influence the feelings that we have.
29:04
Speaker 2: These behaviors can even amplify those feelings. For example, if
29:09
Speaker 2: let's say I'm nervous about missing my flight, right so
29:13
Speaker 2: we kind of talked about earlier, I'm nervous about missing
29:15
Speaker 2: my flight. I'm anxious about that, and then I start
29:17
Speaker 2: kind of moving faster or walking faster, running through the airport.
29:23
Speaker 2: I gets like just the physiology of your heart rate
29:26
Speaker 2: increasing and trying to get somewhere on time, the languaging
29:30
Speaker 2: of I have to move faster or I will not
29:33
Speaker 2: get to the place on time. Like the combination of
29:36
Speaker 2: those things can elevate levels of fear and also as
29:39
Speaker 2: a result, your heart rate will increase your stress will
29:43
Speaker 2: increase your cortisol levels. All the stuff that is related
29:46
Speaker 2: to all the physiology stuff starts to increase by the
29:48
Speaker 2: nature of I'm doing the physical activity with the languaging
29:51
Speaker 2: of the context, right.
29:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think if you've ever had the experience of
29:57
Speaker 1: being really angry and then decided to punch a punching
29:59
Speaker 1: bag or punch a pillow, oftentimes that can actually make
30:03
Speaker 1: the anger feel more intense, at least briefly. Like once
30:07
Speaker 1: you start getting into the like physicality of anger, which
30:11
Speaker 1: is which can look like aggression, then that can actually
30:14
Speaker 1: amplify the then feelings of anger. So's there is like
30:17
Speaker 1: a feedback mechanism in there. And you could do the
30:21
Speaker 1: reverse too, Like if you're feeling particularly stressed out, you
30:24
Speaker 1: can behave in a very stressed out way and amplify
30:28
Speaker 1: that feeling of stress. You can also do the opposite,
30:31
Speaker 1: which is, you know, get in like a zen Buddhist
30:35
Speaker 1: sort of position and take some deep breaths and even
30:38
Speaker 1: though that may not completely get rid of that feeling
30:42
Speaker 1: of anxiousness whatever it is, it can turn the temperature down.
30:47
Speaker 1: It can just bring it to a sort of less
30:49
Speaker 1: intense level. By doing behaviors that are the opposite of
30:53
Speaker 1: the emotion that you're feeling. Right again, you kind of
30:56
Speaker 1: get some with the other, but it's it's not to
31:00
Speaker 1: be like, just because I smile doesn't mean I'm gonna
31:03
Speaker 1: go from sad to feeling happy, right, but it can
31:06
Speaker 1: help a little. Just because I frowned doesn't mean I'll
31:09
Speaker 1: go from happy to feeling sad, but it can affect
31:11
Speaker 1: it a little. But it's just doing all those things,
31:14
Speaker 1: Like everything sort of moves together in those directions because
31:18
Speaker 1: our physiological muscle movements that we do are part of
31:22
Speaker 1: our body, just the way that our emotions and our
31:25
Speaker 1: neurology is part of our body. So we don't get
31:27
Speaker 1: to do one without the other, right, absolutely, Okay, So yeah.
31:32
Speaker 1: Fear is a complex tapestry of experiences that goes beyond
31:36
Speaker 1: simple fearful stimulus, et cetera. It is influenced by a
31:41
Speaker 1: range of factors and experiences with those different things can
31:45
Speaker 1: tittrate that fear response up or down. So one might
31:48
Speaker 1: be afraid of heights until they spend a lot of
31:50
Speaker 1: time in high places, and eventually that fear starts to
31:54
Speaker 1: fade away over time. I was terribly afraid of going
31:57
Speaker 1: out in the water, and I did you know, I
32:01
Speaker 1: did work through some psychological exercises meant to help with
32:04
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, but it also was going out
32:07
Speaker 1: in the water and actually just experiencing it and like
32:11
Speaker 1: being comfortable or at least finding a way to sit
32:14
Speaker 1: comfortably in the ocean looking at the thousands of fish
32:17
Speaker 1: that are all eager to destroy me and they're not
32:20
Speaker 1: destroying me, and I'm.
32:22
Speaker 2: Okay, sure, sure. Yeah. So another side of this too, though,
32:26
Speaker 2: is that you might not have a few of dogs
32:29
Speaker 2: until you're attacked by a dog, and then as a
32:31
Speaker 2: result of that experience, you might develop a very particular
32:34
Speaker 2: fear about being bitten or attacked by a dog because
32:37
Speaker 2: of that really aversive experience, right, Like, so, like it's
32:40
Speaker 2: not just that you are afraid of things when you're born, Like,
32:42
Speaker 2: there are some things that we might be nervous about
32:44
Speaker 2: or might make us nervous, but our experiences really shape
32:47
Speaker 2: up a lot of very specific things.
32:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and then things that like no one tells
32:52
Speaker 1: us that we're afraid of or that we should be
32:54
Speaker 1: afraid of, but then we experience them and we start
32:56
Speaker 1: to develop a fear of those things. Right now. Of course, relatedly,
33:01
Speaker 1: our fears can also be affected by and titrated by
33:05
Speaker 1: our language, meaning that we might experience fear of going
33:09
Speaker 1: to a dentist after hearing horror stories about pain and
33:14
Speaker 1: suffering that someone else experienced at a dentist, even though
33:18
Speaker 1: we never had those experiences ourselves. And we might not
33:23
Speaker 1: experience fear during a scary movie if someone has already
33:26
Speaker 1: given away the ending before we have seen it, right,
33:30
Speaker 1: And so there are aspects of again, our language can
33:34
Speaker 1: really dial up the intensity or dial down the intensity
33:39
Speaker 1: of our emotional states, and fear is definitely one of those, right.
33:43
Speaker 2: And fear is also influenced by our physiological states. So
33:46
Speaker 2: if we're highly aroused or in a state of deprivation
33:49
Speaker 2: such as hunger, if we're hungry, thirsty, or tired, we
33:53
Speaker 2: might be more fearful than if we are relaxed compensatiated,
33:57
Speaker 2: Or we might be more or less afraid if we
34:00
Speaker 2: are severely intoxicated by some substance or depending on the
34:04
Speaker 2: substance too, and other factors that we had mentioned, there's
34:06
Speaker 2: a lot of different things that can happen that can
34:09
Speaker 2: kind of elevate, alter chaine shift our states. And kind
34:14
Speaker 2: of amplify those emotions in different ways.
34:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, someone who has taken a handful of xanax probably
34:20
Speaker 1: very little reaction to what would otherwise be fearful stimuli. Right,
34:25
Speaker 1: someone who is drunk, I don't know, just depends on them.
34:28
Speaker 1: They might be more afraid of something that they wouldn't
34:30
Speaker 1: otherwise be afraid of, or wouldn't be as afraid of.
34:34
Speaker 1: They might be less afraid of things they'd normally be
34:36
Speaker 1: afraid of. I think it just depends on the person
34:39
Speaker 1: and the thing they're reacting to, right, And then of
34:41
Speaker 1: course the context, the context of that situation or circumstance.
34:45
Speaker 1: It can also really influence how fearfully we react to something.
34:50
Speaker 1: A cat jumping down from a shelf is not scary
34:52
Speaker 1: if we like see it coming, But it might be
34:55
Speaker 1: scary if it just happens out of nowhere and all
34:57
Speaker 1: of a sudden, this lands right next to us. We
34:59
Speaker 1: were like, uh, had no anticipation of that event, and
35:02
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there's like a thud and like
35:04
Speaker 1: something even touches us. Yeah, and that can be a
35:06
Speaker 1: little scary, especially if you don't have a cat. Yeah,
35:10
Speaker 1: that could be really scary. But that context. The situation
35:13
Speaker 1: is really important in affecting how something shows up for
35:18
Speaker 1: us as being scary or not.
35:20
Speaker 2: Right, or something like a knock on the door in
35:21
Speaker 2: the middle of the day that might not be so frightening,
35:25
Speaker 2: but I mean depending, right, Like nobody's like just showing
35:28
Speaker 2: up at people's houses anymore.
35:29
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, just in general, just in general, but.
35:31
Speaker 2: At night, in the middle of the night, if we
35:33
Speaker 2: aren't expecting it, that can be a little bit dicey, right,
35:36
Speaker 2: that can be a little bit dodgy, and that can
35:37
Speaker 2: probably elevate us a little bit. It puts us on
35:39
Speaker 2: guard at the very least.
35:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, knock of the door at two am a worrying event.
35:44
Speaker 1: A knock of the door at two pm. You're like, man,
35:48
Speaker 1: who's there?
35:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's my water deliveries here?
35:51
Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure context, Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. As I said,
35:55
Speaker 1: this is just this is a rich tapestry, a variety
35:58
Speaker 1: of circumstances that will affect our experience of fear. An
36:01
Speaker 1: animal that we have a history of fear with jumping
36:04
Speaker 1: out at us unexpectedly in the dark when we're at
36:07
Speaker 1: in a state of desperation as a recipe for like
36:10
Speaker 1: maximum fear, just as an example, there are lots of
36:13
Speaker 1: ways you could arrange that, uh.
36:15
Speaker 2: Huh, yeah, yeah, lots and lots of scariness. So of course,
36:18
Speaker 2: the build up of tension that gradually introduces increasingly relevant
36:21
Speaker 2: horror contexts can make the final payoff much scarier than
36:25
Speaker 2: if the big reveal happened without any suspense. So like
36:28
Speaker 2: when you talk about movies and you talk about horror
36:30
Speaker 2: movies and how people get scared, there's a lot of
36:32
Speaker 2: build up, build up, build up, build up to the
36:34
Speaker 2: monster or to the final conflict or whatever it is,
36:37
Speaker 2: and it kind of gets scarier as it goes. And
36:40
Speaker 2: they do this through visuals, they do this through sound design,
36:44
Speaker 2: they do this through all different kinds of things. But
36:47
Speaker 2: that build up does lead to a larger payoff when
36:49
Speaker 2: there are bigger, scarier jump scares and whatnot in movies.
36:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And some movie directors will and writers will
36:57
Speaker 1: try this approach when they just sort of throw everything
36:59
Speaker 1: at you all at once without building any suspense. Is
37:03
Speaker 1: just like, well, look at all this stuff. It's so scary.
37:06
Speaker 1: And some also think that like confusing bizarre imagery is
37:11
Speaker 1: the best recipe for creating a fear of response in
37:13
Speaker 1: the audience.
37:14
Speaker 2: Like, I'm just the ring was pretty effective. I'm just
37:18
Speaker 2: saying the ring that that that freaked me out for
37:20
Speaker 2: a little bit, you know what I'm saying.
37:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, it less on that the bizarre end of things
37:26
Speaker 1: that was sort of more of the grotesque imagery I guess.
37:29
Speaker 1: But like, sure, I've seen some movies were like it
37:31
Speaker 1: seems like the how they were trying to generate fear
37:36
Speaker 1: in the audience was by confusing you greatly. Sure, you're like,
37:40
Speaker 1: I have no idea what's going on?
37:42
Speaker 2: Well, what's the scariest movie scene for you? Then? Like
37:45
Speaker 2: if you think about a movie scene and because you
37:48
Speaker 2: we know you like movies, what's the scariest movie scene
37:51
Speaker 2: that you can think of? You know?
37:53
Speaker 1: Poltergeist was my go to movie for a long time
37:57
Speaker 1: as like one of the scariest movies.
37:58
Speaker 2: It's a good one.
37:59
Speaker 1: And the scenes, I mean, there were a lot of
38:03
Speaker 1: scenes in there, but like some of the scariest scenes
38:06
Speaker 1: were like the build up to things that were like
38:10
Speaker 1: about to happen. Yeah, I'm trying to remember with others though,
38:13
Speaker 1: because like I feel like I've seen some it the
38:15
Speaker 1: most recent the first one that came out like seventeen,
38:20
Speaker 1: that one had some like legitimately like really scary things scenes. Yeah,
38:25
Speaker 1: and so I think there's somewhere like oftentimes a really
38:28
Speaker 1: slow build up where it's like it's really clear that's
38:31
Speaker 1: where it's going. Those are some of the scariest. So like,
38:35
Speaker 1: for me, the unknown is less scarier than the known.
38:39
Speaker 1: Scary thing that like is building suspense when it just
38:43
Speaker 1: jumps out of nowhere and it's just like all of
38:46
Speaker 1: a sudden, there's a giant toothy clown creature and I
38:51
Speaker 1: had no build up whatsoever, like assuming something like that happened,
38:55
Speaker 1: it's not really that scary. It's just sort of like
38:57
Speaker 1: a surprise ye versus like when he crawls out of
39:02
Speaker 1: the fridge and like slowly unwinds himself.
39:05
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that's pretty good.
39:07
Speaker 1: That was a really creepy, creepy scene because it's like
39:11
Speaker 1: it's disturbing, it's grotesque. It's also like slow and building,
39:15
Speaker 1: but the threat is like very very present. So that
39:18
Speaker 1: for me at least, that's the stuff that works really
39:20
Speaker 1: really well. Yeah, but it's like just confusion for me
39:24
Speaker 1: has been like I'm not really afraid of being confused, sure,
39:29
Speaker 1: so like things that are nonsensical, I'm mostly just like, oh,
39:34
Speaker 1: what a what am I supposed to be getting from this?
39:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. So the two scenes that
39:39
Speaker 2: I thought of immediately were in Aliens, when the soldier
39:45
Speaker 2: aliens start like crawling down off the walls, like and
39:48
Speaker 2: you realize there's a bunch of them and they're surrounded.
39:50
Speaker 2: That's a pretty pretty gnarly scene. You're like, oh, oh, no,
39:53
Speaker 2: I don't know, because you already know they're scary from
39:55
Speaker 2: the first movie, so you have that context. And then
39:58
Speaker 2: the second scene I could think of that was scary
40:00
Speaker 2: to me, as the boat ride in Willy Wonka.
40:05
Speaker 1: Hor That one does have a lot of confusion going on,
40:07
Speaker 1: but also a lot of disturbing imagery thrown into the confusion.
40:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, it works. It's effective.
40:14
Speaker 1: Well, we started talking about movies, which means that we
40:16
Speaker 1: are off track, which means that we should probably take
40:18
Speaker 1: an ad break and reset. All Right, We're going to
40:29
Speaker 1: wrap up our discussion on fear by talking about the
40:32
Speaker 1: problems with fear, But first we need to talk about
40:35
Speaker 1: why it's not a problem, because being afraid is a
40:38
Speaker 1: one hundred percent human normal reaction to perceived threats in
40:44
Speaker 1: one's environment. I mean, Fear is very biologically useful for
40:50
Speaker 1: survival because when we escape or avoid things that are dangerous,
40:55
Speaker 1: then we are more likely to survive. Very straightforward, that
40:59
Speaker 1: is true through within the lifetime of an organism and
41:03
Speaker 1: across generations of that organism's species. However, fear is not
41:10
Speaker 1: necessarily evoked by immediately present, visible threats. Often for humans
41:17
Speaker 1: it is psychological, which very colloquially speaking, we generally assume
41:24
Speaker 1: that term. When people say it's like psychological, I think
41:27
Speaker 1: I generally assume what they mean is that it is
41:30
Speaker 1: a language driven event or experience.
41:35
Speaker 2: Right, And so, as we mentioned, we can be afraid
41:37
Speaker 2: of things to a greater degree than what is warranted
41:40
Speaker 2: by the nature of the threat or by the probability
41:42
Speaker 2: of that threat, and needs are phobias. When fear exceeds
41:45
Speaker 2: normal responses or normal response levels and creates severe avoidance
41:49
Speaker 2: to even associations with the threat, then we're looking at
41:52
Speaker 2: something that is a little bit more concerning, especially if
41:55
Speaker 2: it starts to impact somebody's quality of life. So, for instance,
41:58
Speaker 2: someone who has an actual you have spiders, is often
42:01
Speaker 2: afraid of even the idea that there could be a
42:03
Speaker 2: spider nearby, even if there's no indication that this is
42:06
Speaker 2: actually the case, and so sometimes people have really intense
42:09
Speaker 2: phobias that do impact their life on these really intense levels.
42:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously seeing a spider would be a very
42:16
Speaker 1: fear inducing experience for them, but the anticipation of spiders
42:22
Speaker 1: is basically as severe as seeing one. And that's where
42:25
Speaker 1: it starts to become problematic because you can imagine threats
42:30
Speaker 1: everywhere sure that aren't necessarily there. And some fears and
42:35
Speaker 1: phobias are exacerbated by or are characteristic of other mental
42:40
Speaker 1: health issues. So people with severe anxiety, schizophrenia, panic disorders,
42:45
Speaker 1: mood disorders PTSD, and others, sometimes they're going to experience
42:51
Speaker 1: more often and other types of fear and sort of
42:54
Speaker 1: phobia related behaviors and patterns because it is a heart
43:00
Speaker 1: of or is sort of a bonus, if you will,
43:05
Speaker 1: to the other mental health issues they might be suffering.
43:08
Speaker 2: Right, So, of course fear can be both useful and destructive.
43:12
Speaker 2: But when fear begins to extend well beyond the reasonable
43:15
Speaker 2: and probable reality of a threat, then it can really
43:17
Speaker 2: start to impede that quality of life piece that I
43:20
Speaker 2: was talking about. And so for folks that have that
43:22
Speaker 2: experience where their quality of life starts to get impacted
43:25
Speaker 2: or they start to kind of lose the joy and
43:27
Speaker 2: richness of life. They might seek therapy or they might
43:30
Speaker 2: seek treatment for this.
43:31
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So the most common treatment for phobia's specifically
43:37
Speaker 1: is exposure therapy.
43:39
Speaker 2: And to be clear, not like Mari Povich exposure therapy
43:42
Speaker 2: where he makes people who are afraid of pickles look
43:44
Speaker 2: at a giant jar pickles.
43:46
Speaker 1: That actually is a version of it. We'll tell you
43:48
Speaker 1: about it.
43:48
Speaker 2: Yeah.
43:49
Speaker 1: And also not exposure as in to get naked, although
43:52
Speaker 1: that is a fear for some people too, Yes it is.
43:55
Speaker 1: But exposure and response prevention is a brilliant re packaging
44:00
Speaker 1: of previously existing behavioral techniques and literature that uses gradual
44:06
Speaker 1: exposure to help people overcome anxieties and compulsive disorders. And essentially,
44:11
Speaker 1: this just involves slowly increasing someone's contact with the feared
44:16
Speaker 1: context or object. So if you have a fear of snakes,
44:19
Speaker 1: let's just start with a fear of snakes and we'll
44:21
Speaker 1: walk through the steps that it would be common in
44:23
Speaker 1: something like this. I'm not saying these are the exact
44:25
Speaker 1: steps they might be for somebody, but it'd be something
44:28
Speaker 1: kind of like this order. It might be starting with
44:31
Speaker 1: just imagining a snake. Close your eyes, pretend like think
44:35
Speaker 1: about a snake. Then once they can do that without
44:38
Speaker 1: feelings distressed, then you might get used to looking at
44:41
Speaker 1: a picture of a snake. And when they can do that,
44:44
Speaker 1: then maybe you'll advance to having like a fake snake,
44:47
Speaker 1: a pretend snake that's nearby. Maybe they are even touching
44:50
Speaker 1: the fake snake. Then maybe you have like a real
44:53
Speaker 1: snake that's kind of nearby, but as in a cage
44:56
Speaker 1: so it can't get out. And again, once they're experiencing
44:59
Speaker 1: that with low levels of distress, then maybe you go
45:02
Speaker 1: as far as to allowing them to hold the snake.
45:04
Speaker 1: Do you have it go in their hands, on their lap,
45:07
Speaker 1: And so it's just gradually increasing the exposure to the thing,
45:12
Speaker 1: and once the distress levels come down at that level
45:16
Speaker 1: of exposure, you just increase it a little more. There's
45:19
Speaker 1: one little caveat which is that sometimes our imaginations are
45:22
Speaker 1: so good that that it can be hard to get
45:24
Speaker 1: past that step. You might have to start with a
45:26
Speaker 1: picture of a snake, because those really can't do anything.
45:28
Speaker 1: But imagining a snake could be worse for someone than
45:30
Speaker 1: seeing an actual snake.
45:32
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Another thing to consider to you inside of
45:34
Speaker 2: that is that those levels, like whenever somebody has like
45:37
Speaker 2: an identified level of exposure, you might not just be
45:40
Speaker 2: doing the exposure part. You might also be increasing how
45:43
Speaker 2: long they're exposed to it. So like part of your
45:46
Speaker 2: goals might actually break down to go, Okay, so now
45:48
Speaker 2: you've seen a picture of a snake for one second,
45:50
Speaker 2: and then you avoided it, and then maybe you do
45:52
Speaker 2: like when you see the snake in the cage, Like
45:54
Speaker 2: it might even be approaches, like you get a little
45:56
Speaker 2: bit closer and a little bit closer for a little
45:58
Speaker 2: bit longer, Like you can really break down into really
46:00
Speaker 2: small components exactly. So immersion therapy is similar, but can
46:06
Speaker 2: start by putting somebody into the full final stage of exposure.
46:09
Speaker 2: You jump straight to covered in snakes like Indiana Jones, right. Yeah,
46:13
Speaker 2: although some immersions still do this slowly. They just flood
46:16
Speaker 2: your environment with a lot of the fearful cues. Maybe
46:19
Speaker 2: not like the snake pit per se. I don't know
46:21
Speaker 2: many therapists who have like access to a full on
46:24
Speaker 2: snake pit, but what they might do is, like you,
46:26
Speaker 2: they might walk in and they might already have pictures
46:29
Speaker 2: or images or posters or things like that of snakes,
46:32
Speaker 2: like almost right away for the person to be exposed
46:34
Speaker 2: to it immediately.
46:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So like if you had claustrophobia, for example,
46:39
Speaker 1: you're afraid of small spaces, they might even say, like,
46:42
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put you in this closet right now, the
46:44
Speaker 1: doors unlocked. I'm gonna even leave it cracked a little
46:47
Speaker 1: bit Boredois goes right in there. Like basically it's just
46:49
Speaker 1: fully immersion in whatever that scenario is. If you're afraid
46:53
Speaker 1: of public speaking, they might have you go on to
46:56
Speaker 1: a stage and maybe even have people there. So there's
47:01
Speaker 1: the immersion. Therapy can look a lot like just throwing
47:03
Speaker 1: you in the deep end of the fearful situation right
47:07
Speaker 1: to an extent, depending on what they're trying to do
47:09
Speaker 1: with it and what makes sense for you.
47:11
Speaker 2: Right and now. For some folks, anti anxiety medications can help,
47:15
Speaker 2: they can be useful, they can work, but it doesn't
47:18
Speaker 2: necessarily mean it's going to be effective for every single person,
47:20
Speaker 2: and dosage might not be right for certain people. So
47:23
Speaker 2: it does take a professional work with you on that
47:25
Speaker 2: to figure out what works what doesn't work. What's effective,
47:27
Speaker 2: what's not, and what's going to benefit you.
47:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to be careful with how how you
47:32
Speaker 1: take prescribed substances of that nature, because again, if a
47:36
Speaker 1: thought is enough to set you off, then like you
47:38
Speaker 1: probably want to not just spend your whole life on
47:42
Speaker 1: anti anxiety medication, just popping one every few minutes. Right,
47:45
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe you do. Some therapist might disagree
47:48
Speaker 1: with me on that, but generally speaking, if you can
47:50
Speaker 1: have it for the situations where it's the most intense
47:53
Speaker 1: and you know you're going to essentially be useless if
47:57
Speaker 1: you cannot get through that moment effectively, that might be
48:00
Speaker 1: the strategy. And then otherwise you work on ways to
48:03
Speaker 1: deal with it without necessarily depending on medication. But don't
48:06
Speaker 1: listen to me. Go talk to your doctor. They will
48:09
Speaker 1: help you make those desis. Yes, all right, I think
48:11
Speaker 1: we did it. I think we talked about fear.
48:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we unpacked it. I mean, I don't
48:14
Speaker 2: know that there's much more to say. It's a thing
48:17
Speaker 2: that we do, it's a thing that we experience. It's
48:20
Speaker 2: very experience and physiologically and language driven. So the three
48:25
Speaker 2: of those things together do create kind of this wonderful
48:27
Speaker 2: cocktail of avoidance and escape behavior. So I think we
48:32
Speaker 2: did a good job. I think that's I think that's
48:33
Speaker 2: a good place to be for this one.
48:35
Speaker 1: Awesome. My fear about getting through this episode is now
48:40
Speaker 1: a moot point.
48:40
Speaker 2: Yay, I love that it's kidding.
48:44
Speaker 1: I hope that you all enjoyed what you heard here today.
48:47
Speaker 1: If you would like to support us, you can head
48:48
Speaker 1: over to Patreon. You can pick up some merchant a
48:51
Speaker 1: store or leave us a rating and review, subscribe, and
48:53
Speaker 1: of course go share us with a friend. If you
48:56
Speaker 1: do join us on Patreon, huge shout out and thank
48:59
Speaker 1: you to you for that genera's gesture. That is what
49:01
Speaker 1: really means a lot to us. And there have been
49:03
Speaker 1: a group of people who have been sticking with us,
49:06
Speaker 1: be in their generous selves, supporting us with the mission
49:09
Speaker 1: of this podcast, and so they get a special shout
49:12
Speaker 1: out and you can too if you join this list,
49:14
Speaker 1: and that is Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian, Ashley,
49:21
Speaker 1: Kiara and Michelle. Thank you all so much, really appreciate you.
49:24
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, We adore you on so many levels.
49:28
Speaker 1: Of course, I could not do this without my team
49:30
Speaker 1: of people writing in fact checking from Shandon myself. Our
49:33
Speaker 1: social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the guy who
49:36
Speaker 1: does the audio stuff that makes us sound like a
49:39
Speaker 1: podcast is Justin, who we just immensely appreciate.
49:43
Speaker 2: Yes, even though we make his life harder, we do.
49:45
Speaker 1: Make his life harder. Justin. We really appreciate you.
49:47
Speaker 2: We're really so sorry.
49:48
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you.
49:49
Speaker 2: We're really so sorry.
49:50
Speaker 1: Huge shout out and thank you to you.
49:52
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, We adore you on so many levels.
49:55
Speaker 1: We really appreciate you. We are anyway, always actually wrap
50:00
Speaker 1: up these discussions by recommending some things. Is there anything
50:04
Speaker 1: that you would like to add or that I forgot
50:06
Speaker 1: before we get to our recommendations.
50:08
Speaker 2: Nope, not today.
50:09
Speaker 1: All right, let's do it.
50:11
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
50:19
Speaker 1: Recommendations.
50:21
Speaker 2: I got to see a band last night, and I've
50:24
Speaker 2: always really liked this band, and I'm so excited that
50:26
Speaker 2: I finally got to see them, because they are on
50:29
Speaker 2: that level of extreme music that just sounds absurd, Like
50:32
Speaker 2: if you told somebody who didn't listen to this type
50:34
Speaker 2: of music, they'd be like, are you okay? And that
50:37
Speaker 2: band is a band called Pig Destroyer. They sound exactly
50:41
Speaker 2: like their band name sounds. It sounds like just irresponsible
50:44
Speaker 2: violence put the audio form.
50:47
Speaker 1: Wow.
50:48
Speaker 2: They have put out a bunch of records, but I
50:50
Speaker 2: want to and I've recommended them on here before for sure.
50:53
Speaker 1: I did, I do remember this.
50:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I recommended Headcage, which was their newer record,
50:58
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna recommend an older record. It's really the
51:00
Speaker 2: record that solidified how much I like this band when
51:02
Speaker 2: I when I was growing up, and that is a
51:05
Speaker 2: record called Terrifier, And just to go along with the theme,
51:09
Speaker 2: the spooky theme of Halloween and all the scariness and
51:11
Speaker 2: all that, Terrifier is twenty one songs, thirty two minutes.
51:15
Speaker 1: Whoa uh huh. These are short songs, short fast, one
51:19
Speaker 1: very long song and very very yeah.
51:21
Speaker 2: Yeah it's yeah, it's it's it's quite a bit so
51:25
Speaker 2: fair warning. Content warning is violent, it is scary. The
51:30
Speaker 2: cover album is a little bit very bit not safe
51:33
Speaker 2: for work, so just don't look it up at work.
51:36
Speaker 2: I think it's a great listen if you like extreme
51:38
Speaker 2: kind of like grind metal with a little bit of
51:41
Speaker 2: like storytelling in it.
51:43
Speaker 1: Wow. Huh, Okay, Pig Destroyer terrifier.
51:46
Speaker 2: It's it's yeah, it sounds That's what the whole record
51:49
Speaker 2: sounds like. If you want to be scared.
51:50
Speaker 1: It's a good listen that is unbrand for this for
51:53
Speaker 1: this discussion today, for this episode. Yeah, I'm recommending a
51:57
Speaker 1: TV show. This is the last season that they're going
52:01
Speaker 1: to come out with. I don't know. I mean, it's
52:03
Speaker 1: possible they'll try more, but I don't know how they're
52:05
Speaker 1: going to come back from their ending. If they do,
52:07
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure this was meant to be the series finale.
52:10
Speaker 1: This is the Umbrella Academy Season four. This is on Netflix.
52:16
Speaker 1: It was kind of cathartic in a way. I actually
52:19
Speaker 1: liked the way that they wrapped it all up. I
52:21
Speaker 1: just love this show a lot. I think the writing
52:23
Speaker 1: on it is fantastic. I really enjoy the characters and
52:26
Speaker 1: the dynamics and everything, and I just think it's a
52:28
Speaker 1: really fun show. Sure, for those of you who I've
52:30
Speaker 1: never heard of it at all, it's sort of loosely,
52:33
Speaker 1: if you will, about a school of adopted children who
52:37
Speaker 1: have superpowers, which sounds a lot like X Men, and
52:39
Speaker 1: in a way it is. Sure there's a lot of
52:42
Speaker 1: crime fighting involved, but of course, this is actually once
52:45
Speaker 1: they have grown into adults and they have sort of
52:49
Speaker 1: gone their own separate ways and how they sort of
52:52
Speaker 1: are dealing with life and then they're sort of forced
52:55
Speaker 1: back together. And anyway, so the last season, season four
52:58
Speaker 1: is out. I really enjoy it. I think it's a
53:01
Speaker 1: really great show. So strong recommends for the Umbrella Academy.
53:04
Speaker 1: I believe this is considered a Netflix original, so all
53:07
Speaker 1: of it should be streaming there. If you have Netflix,
53:10
Speaker 1: I recommend checking it out.
53:11
Speaker 2: And for folks that don't know, Umbrella Academy was originally
53:14
Speaker 2: written by Gerard Way, the singer of My Chemical Romance,
53:17
Speaker 2: and it is a comic book.
53:18
Speaker 1: Yes, that is a fact. Yeah, I believe published by
53:21
Speaker 1: dark Horse Comics. And I believe that he was directly
53:24
Speaker 1: involved with the production of the show, so I think
53:27
Speaker 1: that he saw and helped facilitate the creation of the
53:30
Speaker 1: show from start to end. So I think his vision
53:32
Speaker 1: was They were able to remain fairly true to his vision,
53:35
Speaker 1: or you know, at least a decent way throughout, which
53:38
Speaker 1: is cool.
53:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did a good job with it.
53:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, So okay, great, Well that's what we have to
53:43
Speaker 1: say about Pig Destroyer and the Umbrella Academy and Fear.
53:46
Speaker 1: Sure if you would like to tell us your thoughts
53:49
Speaker 1: on Fear, what we got wrong, what we got right?
53:52
Speaker 1: We like to send heaping praise our way. You can
53:54
Speaker 1: do that thing. You can email us directly. We would
53:57
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. You can email us at
53:59
Speaker 1: info atwdwwdpodcast dot com. Again, that is info at wwdwwdpodcast
54:07
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also reach us on the socio
54:09
Speaker 1: media platforms. We really like hearing from people. But I
54:12
Speaker 1: think that is all that I have to say. Anything
54:14
Speaker 1: you'd like to add, Shane, No, I think that's it
54:17
Speaker 1: all right. Well, just getting started in October. Happy Halloween everyone.
54:22
Speaker 2: This is Abrah, Happy Halloween, and this is Shane.
54:25
Speaker 1: We're out by E. You've been listening to Why we
54:29
Speaker 1: Do what we do. You can learn more about this
54:31
Speaker 1: and other episodes by going to WWDWWD podcast dot com.
54:37
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and we hope you have an awesome
54:39
Speaker 2: day