Latest / Identity at the Center / #221 - Identity Orchestration with Eric Olden of Strata Identity

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#221 - Identity Orchestration with Eric Olden of Strata Identity · Identity at the Center

0:05
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
0:10
am this is the go-to podcast. Now your host Jim McDonald and
0:18
Jeff Steadman welcome to the idea of the center podcast I'm
0:22
Jeff and that's Jim. Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you?
0:26
Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing great.
0:29
I did my My expense report from the identity by Denver's
0:34
conference today. I was going through my Aria
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Resort detailed bill and I had a charge on it for the minibar, a
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bottle of vodka, which I didn't take, by the way $75.
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Now, is that good and bad, right?
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Because I'm thinking first off, like I don't even take a bottle
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of vodka and second of like why was this $75?
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Because probably wasn't like any special vodka but the good part
1:03
is one phone call later. They took it right off so yeah,
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good and bad. Well, Aria had that this is the
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first time I'd seen it and I guess that's, I probably
1:13
shouldn't be shocked, but if you go to a hotel in Vegas, the
1:16
refrigerators are fully stocked and they have most of them have
1:19
like this. Pressure sensitive plate.
1:22
So it's very much like Indiana Jones trying to like, pull the
1:24
idol off without setting it off. The, the unique thing that I
1:29
noticed it already, which I hadn't seen before was, in
1:33
addition to it being fully stocked.
1:35
They also charged you, if you put anything in.
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So Not only was it looking for wait disappearing.
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It was looking for weight being added to it, which I mean, I
1:45
got. It's Vegas.
1:46
Yeah, everything is nickel and dimed and is expensive, but I
1:49
thought that was kind of Kind of crappy.
1:51
I did see that same plate, but it did not tell you was what the
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charge would be if you put something in it.
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Yeah, there will be a service charge.
2:01
Maybe it's by weight. How much do you put in their bag
2:03
of ice? Yeah, bag of layers of cost you
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$1000 a day or something? A bargain.
2:10
Anyway, I also had on there and this was a legitimate charge for
2:14
a can of Coke 12, ounce can $14.75.
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I did not have the nerve Nerve to expense that one, I just said
2:23
I'm going to eat that one, but man that's brutal for 1075 is
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the most expensive can of soda I've ever had.
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Was that worth it at the time? No.
2:34
You you immediately regretted it as soon as you took it off the
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pressure-sensitive plate. No man.
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I didn't know until I got the bill.
2:42
Okay. Yeah.
2:44
So this is actually the first episode you and I are recording
2:47
together kind of live after identify switch was an awesome.
2:50
Conference. They had such a good time and
2:52
definitely want to shout out to all the people who came up and
2:54
said hello, for whatever reason you must be more approachable.
2:57
Because Pete, I think it sounded like more people came up to you
2:59
to say hello, but I did have a couple which was great.
3:02
So it was very appreciative of kind of walk in the halls and
3:05
hit people kind of randomly stopped in and and say, you
3:08
know, hello and welcome to the show.
3:09
So if you took the time greatly appreciated, thank you so much.
3:12
For all that was very cool. We had a good time.
3:14
Well I hung out with Jason the Jason Statham impersonators much
3:19
as possible. I mean He was like the star of
3:22
the show walking around is the new Booth babe concept which is
3:26
you know, get somebody who's an impersonator in Vegas to walk
3:30
around with and people you know magically come up and talk to
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you. I guess I die.
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I'm not sure. I kite got that one but if you
3:39
had a good time then that's all that matters.
3:42
So we've got another conference coming up that we're going to
3:43
be. I think that's the next thing
3:44
we're hitting is the authenticate conference which is
3:47
in October 16th to the 18th. It's in.
3:50
Bad California. Where is Carlsbad?
3:52
It's just North of San Diego. I know this because I have
3:56
family and my wife side who actually lives there.
3:57
So kind of convenient for that that's put on by The Final
4:02
Answer friends over there. And I think our current reigning
4:05
Champion for maybe show appearance.
4:06
Now will be and Russia are, who's the executive director
4:09
over there. So looking forward to getting
4:11
him on the show and talking about that, not expecting to
4:13
have Julie Smith on the show. Anytime soon.
4:15
Unfortunately, we missed you lie.
4:17
We hope her and her retirement is going well.
4:20
Looks like an opportunity for Andrew to breathe fire.
4:23
Yeah, and we are you do you want to break the news about kind of
4:27
the podcast and the conference? Sure.
4:30
So we are the official podcast of that conference and because
4:37
of that, we've got a killer discount code.
4:39
The best percent off, that's available anywhere.
4:43
I feel confident in saying that and they kind of guaranteed that
4:47
we hope I'd be true. Yeah, this is true.
4:50
All right. We're recording in advance so
4:53
hopefully I'm not proven wrong bedtime.
4:54
This comes out, it's idac 15 podcast.
4:59
And the website is authenticate, con.com / event /, authenticate
5:05
Dash 2023 or I think you can just go to authenticate conduct
5:09
calm and kind of navigate your way there.
5:11
But again that that discount code is I DEC 15 podcast and
5:17
we'll put it in the show notes as well.
5:19
Yeah, for sure. So, Good way to show support for
5:21
the show is to use discount codes and we get them kind of
5:23
shows that actually people listen to this crap that we put
5:26
out every week. So hopefully, you know, people
5:29
use that will see people down there.
5:30
I think we're gonna maybe do a little bit more with the
5:33
conference this year. So we've been kind of talking
5:35
with other team over there, so stay tuned for that.
5:37
But that's pretty cool to be the official podcast and have a
5:41
discount code, we could give our listeners.
5:42
So idac, 15 podcasts, authenticate con Co n.com and
5:49
yeah, hopefully we'll see. October 16th to the 18th in
5:52
Carlsbad and we enjoying the sunny weather.
5:56
Yeah, can't wait. And so we've got a good topic
5:58
for today. We're going to talk about
5:59
identity, orchestration. Do you want to go ahead and
6:02
introduce our guests for today? Yeah, let's bring in our new
6:06
friend. His name is Eric Olden.
6:07
He's the co-founder and CEO at strata identity.
6:10
Welcome to the show. Eric.
6:12
Hi. Thanks for having me.
6:14
Yeah, thanks for taking the time.
6:15
Yeah. So we're gonna have a
6:16
conversation here, about identity orchestration and
6:19
you're going to be our expert in our Sherpa kind of guide us
6:21
through what it is and what we should be thinking about from
6:24
Identity perspective, around that.
6:25
At, but before we do that first time on the show, we'd like to
6:29
understand a little bit about your background.
6:30
How did you get into identity? We were kind of, doing some
6:34
research, and it sounds like you've been around for a long
6:36
time. The space.
6:38
So, is it something that you chose, or did it Choose You?
6:42
I think it's somewhere in between my journey.
6:45
In identity started, when I was in college, in my junior year at
6:50
UC Berkeley and he was 1995, and Netscape had just gone public
6:57
the. But the web is coming out.
7:00
Everyone's excited about it, but nobody knew how to secure it.
7:05
And so, we my best friend and I from high school naively thought
7:11
well, Why don't we just build software to solve that problem
7:15
and not even thinking at the time you would turn into what it
7:19
wound up becoming. And next thing you know two guys
7:24
in the dorm room became a 300 person company and we had a just
7:30
a fun ride through 2001 and that company was Secure intent.
7:37
We had a product called clear trust and we were in the web.
7:42
Management market. And in those days, we didn't
7:45
talk about identity. As the market, it was web
7:49
security or web application access and web, single sign-on,
7:52
and things of that type. I was the CTO and co-founder and
7:57
I ran all of engineering and product and along the way, the
8:04
opportunity showed up to build a standard, and I was one of the
8:09
four early co-authors of Sam. Amal.
8:12
And that was a lot of fun because we collaborated with our
8:17
Fierce rival across the way the team from the Tegrity.
8:22
And we built something that I think is really surpassed my
8:27
expectations early on and so proud of what it's become.
8:32
After we were acquired by our essay in 2001, I took some time
8:38
off got into Venture Capital move from Silicon Valley, You
8:43
Colorado and then when the non-compete were off, I started
8:47
my second company, simplified in 2006.
8:50
And we were the first identity as a service company and solving
8:55
the problem of identity as it moved to SAS applications and
8:59
identities had to be in the cloud and coincidentally that
9:02
company also acquired by our essay.
9:05
And then I spent time with Oracle running the identity and
9:11
security division. There.
9:12
And that was a lot of fun. Moving from a startups that were
9:16
started in a garage. To one of the biggest software
9:20
companies in the world and saw from the other side of the
9:24
table, what the large Enterprise was looking for and the
9:30
challenge was, hey, we're moving to the cloud, but we're not just
9:33
going to One Cloud. We're going to multiple clouds
9:36
and how do we do identity there? And at the time, Cole had made
9:43
the Strategic decision to just focus on the Oracle cloud.
9:47
And I saw that as an opportunity to get out, set out again on my
9:52
own and started Strata with my co-founders and we really wanted
9:57
to solve the problem for identity when you have multiple
10:00
clouds, and you're trying to make it all work together and
10:04
that became identity orchestration.
10:07
So if I'm stuck in an elevator, not good.
10:09
I would be stuck, but let's just use that isn't as the, the
10:11
phrase, what does strata do? Like, what would you tell
10:16
somebody? So, we solve the problem of the
10:21
identity when you have more than one place and by that it's
10:26
typically we have a private Cloud, all the on-premises
10:31
identity, and we've got cloud-based identity, and we're
10:35
using different. Clouds to run or applications.
10:38
So when you have more than one, then you need system to make
10:43
them work together and so and of a way to think about it is if
10:47
the world in the past had really been about one or so, a few
10:53
number of really big identity providers that the future is
10:58
multiple idps. And now you have to think about
11:03
how you work in a world where things are defined by And
11:07
instead of or and so in that world how you make Microsoft and
11:13
dr. Work well together how you make
11:15
your cloud and your on-premises work, you know, hybrid
11:18
configuration, how you make those work together.
11:20
So that's really the middleware that we built.
11:24
We call it identity orchestration because we looked
11:28
at how Computing had evolved in virtualization and in many ways
11:35
you can look at what Nettie's is doing for workloads, allowing
11:39
those to run anywhere and in multiple places and we thought
11:43
well how about approaching identity with orchestration and
11:49
that became the really the hypothesis of the company
11:53
initially. And then we built the first
11:57
version of Mavericks which is the name of our software
12:00
platform in 2019 and we brought that to Market and at the time
12:06
no one Really had an idea that there was a problem or that you
12:11
could solve the problem. And so for the first couple
12:14
years, we were really focused on explaining.
12:18
Hey, this can were, you can create an abstraction layer and
12:22
make all of these things work together and slowly but surely
12:27
people started to try it and now it's become a thing.
12:31
So I was at the ident averse conference that you mentioned
12:34
and it was it was interesting. To see how many customers are
12:39
talking about orchestration and are asking about it.
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And that's happened very quickly.
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And so that in a nutshell, is what strata is?
12:48
Sometimes I tell people were building the VMware of identity
12:52
and do for identity, what virtualization did for compute
12:58
and that's to create this abstraction layer and make
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everything work together. That's a pretty bold statement
13:04
to say that we Jerry Gable on a while back and we kind of talked
13:10
a little bit about sort of like this identity Fabric and thus
13:13
multi-cloud and the way I kind of look at it as some the sort
13:17
of like Rosetta Stone that sits in between because it seems like
13:21
every major cloud provider as a service.
13:23
Does it a different way? Microsoft has a certain way to
13:27
provision accounts. Blah blah, blah.
13:29
AWS does the same thing. Gcp you name it there isn't any
13:34
consistency across that Amazon. Has recently put out, I think
13:37
it's called Cedar, which is like, an open source kind of
13:40
policy framework, for that kind of thing.
13:42
Speaking of, we should probably get Sarah back on the line
13:44
because I think she's actually the head of product for them for
13:46
that, but I guess I see the need to have something that glues all
13:53
this together because in my day job as an I am consultant, I go
13:58
in and I talk with companies and was like, oh yeah, yeah we are
14:01
primarily on Microsoft Azure, for example, where an Office 365
14:05
shop and blah blah blah. And then the question becomes is
14:08
okay so everything is running in Azure.
14:10
Oh well we have some AWS over here and we have some gcp over
14:13
here and I think a lot of companies struggle to some
14:17
degree with this multi-cloud management from that any
14:19
perspective because even though they might pick one as throw
14:22
like their home base an app or a developer or the line of
14:26
business or some feature or function is only available in
14:29
the other ones. They really want to take
14:30
advantage of it. And the reality is you really do
14:33
have to be able to manage across the different clouds.
14:35
Do you find that? That that's accurate.
14:38
I guess it and you're running around.
14:41
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely and Jerry and I
14:45
work together and we talk about this all the time and I think
14:49
the lens that he's looking at the world through is policy and
14:54
how do you make policy consistent in a lot of different
14:57
areas? And we wrote a spec a standard
15:01
called Identity ql or ID ql is what we call it as a way to
15:07
create that generic representation of policy.
15:11
That allow you to make policy consistent both across the East
15:17
and West axis, meaning different clouds.
15:20
All have the same policy from Amazon to Azure, to Google, for
15:23
instance, as well as North and South through the stack.
15:27
So that you can have consistency on policy from your app, to your
15:30
data, to your network, and so forth.
15:33
And that was very ambitious, is a very ambitious thing because
15:38
we're right in the thick of it. Right now, we've got The
15:43
reference implementation called hexo available for download and
15:48
contribution in the CN CF and really proud of how the industry
15:54
is coalescing behind this problem to solve it for
15:58
customers which is hey, let's make things interoperable.
16:01
And so absolutely policy is big part of it and that happens
16:08
typically at runtime or I'm sorry, that happens at Outside
16:12
of runtime. So out of bound, more in the
16:14
administrative or the control plane.
16:18
The other side of orchestration is the runtime orchestration and
16:23
this refers to perhaps the multiple steps that you want to
16:28
have a user go through, as they access applications and data.
16:33
And the orchestration would be, for instance, the flow of a user
16:39
from authenticating. At a certain IDP then up
16:44
authenticating for multi-factor, if they're going to you a
16:48
certain kind of transaction and then perhaps pulling attributes
16:53
from multiple places so that you can feed them into an
16:57
authorization system, like an oppa, or a plane ID and then
17:01
once that response comes back then allow or deny access to a
17:06
resource. So that's just one example of a
17:09
user flow. And orchestration refers to the
17:14
runtime experience that you would link those different steps
17:18
together and sometimes people call them user Journeys.
17:22
But in the end is it's that runtime experience for identity
17:27
orchestration that complements the control plane or the admin
17:31
time consistency that you get with policy orchestration.
17:35
So the two of those together I think are really solving both
17:39
sides of the of the Um today. Yeah, okay, so I've been sitting
17:45
here bottling up all these questions and then you had to go
17:48
and say that which is I'm going to just ask my first question
17:52
based on that, because that's what you hit here, right?
17:54
Is, like, this term orchestration in a vacuum,
18:00
people say, okay, well, what is orchestration, right?
18:02
It can mean anything. It's like, That user Journey
18:06
piece is much different than what Jeff reference which is
18:11
kind of this orchestration of Rosetta Stone.
18:15
So it's really like two. Totally different use cases that
18:19
at solving and in fact, I think there's like another use case
18:23
that was implied by based on what you're talking about
18:26
earlier, which was really this kind of middleware.
18:30
Layer of abstraction concept is it that It basically, the tool
18:38
itself, inherently just does those things in there for.
18:42
It's really you take this, this magic item that we call
18:49
abstraction. It has this orchestration
18:52
workflow capability and I can do user Journeys.
18:57
It can do Rosetta Stone, it can do.
19:01
Layer of abstraction, to integrate your legacy, with your
19:05
modern, is that what does that we're talking about here?
19:08
Yeah, so if you break, if you unpack the whole idea, the
19:13
terminology orchestration, and we start with that, and we'll
19:17
come back to Identity and policy.
19:20
But just the notion of orchestration, we certainly
19:24
didn't invent that concept that have been deployed.
19:27
I think a lot of people are familiar with the idea.
19:30
A of terraform and where you're orchestrating the
19:35
infrastructure. Say, you want to provision a new
19:37
server to run a database and there maybe seven steps involved
19:41
in that from Storage to your networking, to your compute, to
19:46
installing configuring things and scripting it.
19:48
So people have been using Automation and scripting
19:52
vis-à-vis terraform and things of that type of for quite some
19:56
time and the value that you get from.
20:00
That is Automation and consistency and scale.
20:03
So you can point it at something and have it done quickly and do
20:07
it at a lot of different times so you don't have to have people
20:10
doing it. So that Automation and all of
20:12
that is really where or Patrician start the next two
20:18
pieces of the identity component and the policy component touch
20:23
on the integration. Where do you apply that?
20:27
Orchestration in the case of identity orchestration, we apply
20:31
that to run time for the applications that people are
20:36
accessing and the data that those applications are built
20:40
upon. So the Third Kind of concept to
20:45
incorporate here is an identity fabric.
20:49
So you think about your abstraction layer like to break
20:54
that out? What does that mean in practice?
20:56
Think about all of the different idps that you have.
20:59
And if you are running Private Cloud.
21:02
You may have old stuff like active directory or Oracle or
21:07
the old. See a Sidewinder a lot of big
21:10
Enterprise have those things and they are living with them they
21:15
have been living with them for a long time and then you have
21:18
other idps that run in the cloud that could be the opposite of
21:22
the world, the pings of the world, the Azure ades of the
21:26
world. So an identity fabric creates an
21:30
action layer that integrates all of these disparate apis and
21:35
allows you instead of trying to learn each one of those
21:38
different idps apis. And their model of working with
21:42
things, you let the abstraction layer of cover it.
21:46
And so you don't have to worry about doing any of that, you
21:49
integrate, it all into this Fabric and then you can then run
21:53
those different flows through those different steps that tie
21:57
into the different idps in your identity.
22:00
Abra. When we get into the policy side
22:04
of orchestration, what we're talking about are the rules in
22:07
the configurations of the idps themselves.
22:10
And when you think about applying that policy
22:13
orchestration, what we're talking about is the policies
22:17
for instance with in Azure ad that govern, who can do what
22:22
within applications that run on Azure and you may have those
22:27
rules set up typically in the you know, Our backs or the role
22:32
based access control or attribute, based, access
22:36
control, and groups, and things of that type, which have been
22:39
around forever. But if you're running some of
22:43
your apps on Azure and now you also have other apps that are
22:46
running in the say AWS. Now, you've got to think about
22:51
how to work with Cognito which is Amazon's version of an ITP
22:56
and so that system as well uses. Roles and groups and attributes
23:03
and Cedar as a way a new way for them to represent authorization.
23:09
But all of that said you've got these two different clouds that
23:13
have two different imperative policy systems that are
23:19
intuitively obvious, right? You need to understand how the
23:24
whole data model of azure and the whole data model of kognito
23:27
is set up so that you can understand how.
23:30
Configure those rules in those grips.
23:32
And that means it gets really complicated.
23:35
So what an abstract policy abstraction does, is says look,
23:40
we those things were built for a reason the way that they are.
23:44
So we're not going to change those systems.
23:47
But we're going to create an abstraction layer.
23:50
That will normalize a policy that will do the same thing,
23:54
whether it's run in Azure or run in Amazon, and that abstraction
24:00
Action of the policy is represented in this, generic
24:04
Rosetta format called, I dql. And so you can think about
24:08
translating it from native, as your policy into generic, I dql.
24:14
And then translating it from, I dql back into or not back into
24:20
into Amazon policy. So now you've got one policy
24:23
into different instantiations but the software takes care of
24:28
it. So you don't have to worry about
24:30
Learning the API or understanding how all of it
24:32
works. You just focus on that generic
24:36
neutral? Declarative model that's
24:39
represented in. I dql.
24:41
There's a lot of layers in here for sure.
24:42
Yeah, I feel it. So, if I don't have headphones
24:46
on you see the steam coming out of my ears, right?
24:49
All the gears are grinding and I've kind of feel like we're
24:53
cracking the code to your, right?
24:54
So there's these three major scenarios and I think you are A
25:00
texture is based on you have these nodes that are out in your
25:05
environment and they're essentially proxying.
25:10
Traffic of some sort but it's aside eql and they do the
25:14
translation. But essentially you're going
25:17
through these proxies somehow, is it?
25:21
The person is traversing through the proxies or that's just the
25:25
means by which the policies get to the end location to get
25:30
translated yet. So it's a combination of both
25:34
and I call out that the runtime in the administrative are two
25:39
different. Branches of orchestration and
25:43
they really don't cross. But they're both doing
25:46
automation of policy in the case of policy, orchestration and
25:52
runtime, user experience in the case of identity orchestration.
25:57
So, in the case of the software, how you implement it, if you're
26:02
trying to get your policies, the rules and the configuration
26:06
consistent, then you would use a tool called hexa So, which is
26:10
the open source implementation of I dql?
26:14
And if you or if you're trying to do the runtime in the user
26:19
and how that user is on boarded or how they gain access to
26:24
applications and data at runtime, that's what we call
26:27
identity orchestration and in that case you're focused on the
26:31
run time. Right?
26:33
At what point do people when they log in to try and get to an
26:36
application? What happens at that point?
26:39
In both cases, they have proxy based software in the case of
26:44
identity orchestration, it's a runtime proxy.
26:47
In the case of the policy orchestration.
26:51
It's a different proxy, that calls all the apis and it'll do
26:55
things in more of a batch mode. So runtime is identity
27:00
orchestration. Admin is policy orchestration.
27:03
So, yeah, policy orchestration. You had an identity
27:06
orchestration. And then you talked about a Type
27:09
which amused kind of like, doesn't look like the others
27:12
which is orchestration of these user Journeys, which in my mind,
27:17
is something like registering for an identity or some kind of
27:22
user Journey like that. I'm, is that right?
27:25
And then, what is that called? Well, that example that you're
27:29
describing would fit into the category of runtime and that
27:34
would be identity orchestration. Okay.
27:38
Okay, so there's the to is policy and the identity
27:42
orchestration, that's okay. Now I think that that really
27:47
helps and why are those two pieces?
27:54
Combined into one offering. Why wouldn't they be two totally
27:59
different offerings? Does it that the tooling that
28:02
makes those things happen? It's just common and you get all
28:07
this benefit from just conceptually putting laying
28:12
down. These kind of bits.
28:13
That it's only like a 10% add-on to be able to do identity versus
28:19
you know adding the policy on to it.
28:22
Well in our world they are two different things.
28:25
They are one is open source hexa.
28:29
Get that from the cloud native Computing Foundation, the CN CF.
28:33
And we're a contributor to a we helped run the project but we
28:37
don't make any money. We're going to commercialize, I
28:40
dql and hexa. That's our investment into the
28:43
community so organizations can do things in a more seamless
28:49
less lock in kind of world. When you talk about the
28:52
commercial side, what software that strata cells called
28:55
Mavericks that is entirely on identity orchestration and
28:59
that's solving the runtime problem.
29:02
So they are two different pieces and if you cut a trace it back
29:07
to how identity developed since the late 90s through today
29:12
through to today, even in the early days, there were companies
29:17
solving different problems and going back to the late 90s.
29:21
My company's secure aren't we. Focus on runtime web access
29:25
management, people getting into the web apps and doing.
29:28
Single sign on. There are other and we competed
29:31
with an Integrity. They had site minder obligates
29:34
became Oracle and IBM was in the game as well, but we are all in
29:38
this web access management bucket and that, I think
29:42
corresponds to the runtime example that I'm describing.
29:48
At the same time, there were other software There's that at
29:52
the time, we called it provisioning and these were
29:56
companies like axis 360 business layers and what they were doing
30:00
were and now sale point and Savion or more modern versions
30:05
of that and they're solving a problem that's identity related,
30:10
but it's not at the runtime site.
30:12
And what they're doing is saying, hey, should somebody
30:15
have an account and who's in that account?
30:18
And how do we generate reports to show the Auditors.
30:21
That we have a game plan in place and we enforce it.
30:25
So what we kind of fast forward, 25 years and to where we are
30:30
today. Those same two problems continue
30:33
to exist, the runtime and the admin side.
30:37
So what we done is say, let's apply this concept of
30:40
orchestration to both of those worlds.
30:44
Strata as a software company isn't trying to commercialize
30:47
the open-source policy side. We're focused on The run time,
30:52
but they're really two sides of that one coin.
30:55
Because you've got that account and when that account is created
30:59
and provisioned, and when that account is being activated and
31:02
used, you need to think about both sides of that coin.
31:05
So that's why there's a dichotomy.
31:08
And hence the reason that we put the effort we did, is to make it
31:12
hopefully solve the two big problems that people have been
31:16
struggling with for the last 25 years.
31:21
That, you know, I told you I was like bottling up questions as
31:24
you're going. Some of them were like,
31:26
tongue-in-cheek, Concepts and or jokes is as thinking you.
31:31
And I were in college at the same time.
31:33
And I often think what had just start a website where people
31:37
could post their pictures and other people could comment on
31:40
them because that seems like, it would have been pretty easy to
31:43
do. And obviously made a ton of
31:45
money for somebody who called a Facebook The other thing I was
31:51
thinking was just, you know, it seems to me like, you would
31:55
mention you and Jerry are working on the standards.
31:59
So your part CEO and part standards writer because you,
32:04
you're you're in the guts with this thing, huh?
32:08
Yeah, I mean, I love more than anything creating software and I
32:12
love even today. I'm very Hands-On keyboard.
32:16
And probably unlike, and maybe it's because I started my career
32:20
as a CTO, not as a business person or CEO.
32:26
And over time it I never goes away, right?
32:29
And when I see things I instantly try and figure out how
32:33
do we make this work in software?
32:35
And how would we represent these Concepts and code?
32:38
And I'm not a developer, I don't write code, but I design
32:41
software and I love the the Nuance in that detail.
32:46
The standards part of it though. I think was something that was
32:50
very accidental in the very beginning.
32:54
When we were doing the precursor work to sam'l, we were very much
32:58
thinking, we're going to commercialize this and then
33:02
somebody real influential person in my career.
33:08
We're about Blakely at the time, he was at IBM and he said, look,
33:14
you and the team Edna Tegrity, you're both trying to
33:17
commercialize the same thing. Why don't you make it a standard
33:20
and then that way people can, you know, use it more broadly
33:25
and I thought well, okay, that makes sense.
33:28
But maybe we can save the world from the whole betamax and VHS
33:33
battle that happened or the Blu-ray HD DVD kind of saga.
33:39
That going back to the early 2000.
33:41
Time frame. Give credit to Bob because he
33:45
really have pointed me in a different direction, saying make
33:48
this a standard so fast forward coming back to the community.
33:54
I'm thinking, how can we help move?
33:56
The industry forward standards have a really big impact and it
34:01
makes the world so much more interoperable.
34:04
That would be a good thing. I happened to have a lot of
34:07
experience going from Um, nothing to a standard.
34:11
So I brought your area and and I said, look, let's build this
34:14
standard and I had kind of started the initial stack.
34:19
And you know, here we are today now a couple of years later and
34:23
it's moving a lot faster than what we saw with sam'l for a lot
34:28
of technical reasons. But it's just been on fast
34:31
forward and it's really exciting but I think I'll always look at
34:35
ways to solve problems in software and The part that gets
34:39
me excited every day. Yeah, one of the thoughts are as
34:42
having is you're talking was a conversation you and I had when
34:46
we first met which was around my timeline and identity and it's
34:50
oftentimes. I feel like I'm an old head and
34:53
identity, right? I got in around 2003 and I was
34:56
telling you the story of like getting my first project was
34:59
implementing a Publix for web access management as like yeah.
35:05
Like, it was like right around that time when they were bought
35:07
by Oracle, And you're running oracle's identity management.
35:11
What are you okay? Well, I remember not long before
35:15
that. I was like, what is this?
35:16
I am stuff. And now I've got a podcast about
35:19
it but that's, that's, yeah, that's just kind of funny.
35:24
But the other thing I was thinking about was okay, you
35:28
talked about Samuel and being one of the co-writers that
35:32
standard and I thought, okay, I remember Samuel coming out.
35:38
And Samuel evolving. And then you'd hear about
35:42
organizations that were, you know, in playing software like
35:46
paying to provide single sign-on using sam'l.
35:51
But I also remember around that time frame thinking like that'll
35:54
never work for us, it's not complicated enough for us,
35:58
right. We've got all these applications
36:01
that are very complex and we need filters plugins for our web
36:06
servers. That's How we'll do the
36:07
Authentication. Age, that's how will Gate
36:09
traffic into the apps. And obviously that's been
36:13
pulling away, but some of that infrastructure still out there
36:16
and we've Jeff and I run into clients to.
36:19
So have Lotus, Domino servers, not very often but it happened
36:23
at your Lotus. Domino, you've got your old
36:26
classic, ASP applications which, you know, classic.
36:31
It's like right before the switch to the legacy is classic.
36:36
Then Legacy then we got to get rid of this.
36:40
But OK, the point that I'm going toward it.
36:42
Like everybody's now kind of adopted like, okay, we need a
36:47
modern authentication system, it's not the old web access
36:50
management. But you've got some
36:53
applications, may be hundreds of applications that are running on
36:57
Old identity management platforms.
37:00
And to me, it's like you can't wait until the engineering cycle
37:05
to just flush. All those applications out.
37:08
You've got to find a way to integrate them into the hole and
37:11
then you got Even more complex than areas where maybe through
37:14
mergers and Acquisitions, you've got multiple you know modern
37:19
idps and you've got all these different pockets of
37:22
applications. And what is an I am practitioner
37:25
to do is that one of the problems that you guys are
37:28
solving? Yeah absolutely.
37:31
And thanks for the Domino reference.
37:35
I'll I'll I'll see you one Domino reference and raise you
37:39
one coldfusion rule. Yeah, we're helping people one
37:45
of our big Canal, nobody Sleeps Tonight, modernize and they have
37:50
hundreds of these cold fusion apps and I don't think that that
37:54
products been supported in any meaningful way from a new
37:58
feature standpoint for a Time. A lot of times people use these
38:04
old things because it's like plumbing and once it's working
38:07
and you put your drywall up and you put it out of the way.
38:11
You don't think about it. You wanted instead.
38:13
Think about what you're going to do in the room that you just
38:15
bill change. The furniture is a lot easier
38:17
than changing the plumbing. So people only very infrequently
38:23
try to change their infrastructure and that's led to
38:27
a huge amount of technical debt because Cuz you multiply the
38:31
number of companies that have been around for any meaningful
38:36
amount of time, like, 5 10, 20 or more years, they've created
38:41
all of this cruft in all this technical debt and the
38:44
historical way, if you wanted to upgrade your identity provider,
38:49
you have to rewrite your application to consume identity
38:54
from a modern IDP, and to get to the nuts and bolts of it.
39:00
Talks about the last mile integration between the IDP and
39:04
the app and the session is the heart of where this all goes
39:08
down. And the old way we used to do.
39:11
It was as consistently as we could.
39:14
But using the tools that we had, we use cookies, and we use these
39:18
HTTP headers as way to, to cross that transom into the
39:22
application. Well, all the modern identity
39:26
systems, use things like sam'l or open ID.
39:30
Connect. And so now how do you get the
39:33
oid? See to work with cookies because
39:36
they're they're just kind of like getting a gas-powered car
39:39
to work with an electrical Tesla Motor.
39:43
Like these things were never built with the intention to work
39:46
together. So, the modernization is one of
39:49
the most common patterns that people use orchestration for
39:53
because you can swap out the Legacy IDP with a modern one and
39:59
do it in. Way that you don't have to
40:00
rewrite your application. So allows you to upgrade, get
40:04
rid of that technical debt and instead of spending six or
40:07
months or more per application, you can do it in minutes because
40:12
software is doing all the automation.
40:14
So that's a very common use case and it's good for everybody to
40:19
upgrade without paying your technical debt without diverting
40:23
all your Innovation to the Past focus on doing something
40:27
interesting versus fixing An architectural decision from 12
40:32
years ago. So it feels like Orchestration,
40:37
could be very strategic in terms of like Enterprise architecture.
40:42
Here's how we're going to solve these big problems, but it could
40:47
also be a point solution to solve a specific problem.
40:52
So, I wonder when people pick up the phone or stop by your booth
40:56
and want to buy your product. Is it usually for the point
41:00
solution or is it the EA who wants a big picture Rose?
41:06
Rosetta Stone or, you know, a Swiss Army knife It varies.
41:12
It depends on the kind of company that the person's coming
41:17
from. If they are responsible for
41:22
this, let's say doing an acquisition and they know that
41:26
they're going to be acquiring a lot of organizations because
41:29
that's their business model, we work a lot of companies that are
41:32
in that space. They have that kind of world,
41:35
then for their, for their purposes.
41:38
They want the infrastructure so that they can very easily snap
41:42
in and work with a newly acquired company or conversely,
41:46
if they're going to spin a company out to find a way to
41:49
cleave the IDP. So the people that users and
41:56
identities that go with the spun-out company, and all the
41:59
customers, they can handle that, identity, addition, and
42:03
division. Basically those tend to be
42:07
thinking about a very strategically when you have a
42:11
Problem like we have people who say look I'm just trying to roll
42:15
out password list but I have all these unmanageable applications
42:19
I just want this one use case have this.
42:22
I want to roll out hyper or some other MFA but I don't have the
42:28
source code to all these applications or I don't have the
42:31
team or I'll have the time. How do we get this MFA out all
42:35
these applications? Well in that case it's very
42:38
tactical you're just wanting use Even to scale your password was
42:43
rollout and that's a very easy, very common way for people to
42:46
start and once they realize, wow, that was easy.
42:50
What else can I do then? They start looking at the other
42:53
aspects of identity and figure out how they can extend their
42:57
use of orchestration. Extend their identity fabric to
43:01
more item peas and extended to more applications.
43:04
Generally tends to be the way that we see people start, I know
43:08
that we've been talking about a lot of AI.
43:11
Recently on this show and it seems like kind of all over
43:14
everyone you talking to and I think this is an area where I
43:18
think is really right for Innovation because the hill that
43:22
I'm going to die on right now is the definition of a.
43:25
I in my mind has changed within the last nine months or so,
43:29
since the Advent of these large language models and those sorts
43:32
of things. So, how do you say AI,
43:35
impacting, things like orchestration, and maybe even
43:37
potentially things like hexa and id, id Q.
43:41
Well where there's this translation need because people
43:44
don't, you know, maybe trying to figure out right how to
43:46
streamline managing different types of cloud environments, is
43:50
AI something that's going to help with that?
43:52
Can I will I be able to go into some sort of admin console and
43:56
says, hey create Eric in this? And in these platforms that I
44:01
just cut it. Does it does.
44:03
I dql or hexan 80. Serve as the background, the
44:07
kind of help with the translation.
44:08
How do you say I impacting the sort of area of The
44:11
orchestration. Yeah, I'm very excited about AI.
44:15
I'm a big believer in it. One of my companies in the past
44:20
was really focused on machine learning and we were using it
44:22
for, you know, just data-driven optimization.
44:27
So I saw and this is 2013-2014. So very early models that proved
44:36
to me that there's something here.
44:39
So when you talk about a aii similar to what we're seeing
44:42
with identity, right? Well that's a big tent and
44:46
there's a lot of different parts within that world of AI that are
44:50
going to be relevant. And all of this is going to get
44:53
overhyped. And then soon people will be
44:55
saying like now with 50% more Ai and it's like it's some kind of
45:00
additive I think that's kind of well, that one must be better.
45:03
I mean, it's got more AI 16 pounds, more of AI.
45:08
Yeah, it's so abstract. Way, the the height, you say,
45:13
well, what's fundamentally working here were within that AI
45:17
world. I think machine learning is
45:19
proven and that is a way to use big data sets to see patterns
45:26
and do something about that in an automated way.
45:30
The hype recently about large language models, and the things
45:33
that you see with chat, GPT those are great and someone was
45:39
just describing a chat, GPT is a very prolific author.
45:44
They can write things, but it's not actually making decisions,
45:47
right? And in that sense, I think
45:50
people have the right expectations, what you can get
45:53
with large language, models and generative AI in general.
45:58
If you have the right expectations, Of what you can
46:00
get. It's going to be very powerful
46:03
if it's going to go into science fiction, which probably will be
46:08
here before we know it. And you have the general
46:12
purpose, artificial intelligence like what they portray and one
46:16
of the best under rated movies. My opinion is her, you know, the
46:20
I Love Her. Wasn't that great the movie?
46:23
I mean yeah, yeah, yeah. I tell people all the time.
46:26
So I think that's like really cool.
46:28
Will it happen? I think it will.
46:30
Only 2023, you had five years, you had 10 years and I think
46:34
those large language models in the generative.
46:36
APR AI is going to be much more prolific than even it is today,
46:43
but just to apply it to Identity.
46:45
I think you have a the last thing would be how you can build
46:50
a co-pilot and the notion of having a co-pilot that is able
46:55
to manage the data and work with the data that your identity
46:59
system. Can work with as well as do
47:02
things on your behalf. So like we were experimenting
47:07
with some of these things at Oracle and it was very
47:10
rudimentary, it was a chatbot but this is years ago in the
47:13
chat. Bot would do a password reset
47:15
and that at the time was like wow that's crazy.
47:18
Now I think people would be like, oh yeah, I was expecting
47:22
you to be a bot on the other end of this chat.
47:25
So I think all of them I do think AI in very specific.
47:30
He's is going to be very profoundly impactful on identity
47:35
and application security. I think if we do it right then
47:40
we'll be able to show demonstrable value and rely on
47:43
it. And I think the areas that I'm
47:46
most excited about are co-pilots, the ability to do
47:51
large language model in languages, by the way, can be
47:54
programming languages. So therefore if you can get
47:58
those to talk Talk with all the apis then yes I do see a future
48:03
where you can have hexa go out and tell Excel through a chat.
48:08
Go integrate with all of these things and make my policies work
48:12
across all these systems. Then you combining the
48:16
generative APA, I along with these standards and that I think
48:21
is going to be the science instead of the science fiction.
48:24
And I think that's, that's not far in the future and we're
48:27
working on it at strata today. So, I think it'll be interesting
48:31
as we bring it to Market how this is all going to come
48:34
together, but I'm super excited about it.
48:38
Alright, so you've piqued my curiosity.
48:40
When when you guys are ready, I'd love to have you back on,
48:42
explain kind of how your leverages type of thing.
48:45
A couple thoughts. Their first, the movie her, I
48:48
love that movie. I think it's great came out and
48:50
I had to look it up here. 2013, Joaquin.
48:53
Phoenix Scarlett, Johansson. And I remember when I watched
48:55
it, I was like yeah I can totally see this, this is what's
48:58
going to happen. It was sort of like you know
49:00
Siri I think had kind of just started at that point maybe
49:03
Google Assistant, those sorts of things but you could clearly see
49:07
sort of the church. Ejector e right of what the
49:09
personal digital assistant type thing look like.
49:11
So if you haven't seen the movie, Her H ER definitely worth
49:15
checking out. The other thing that you
49:17
mentioned was chat Bots and this is actually something that I
49:19
experimented with a spend six or seven years now.
49:22
And I go at this point, I'm not a coder, but I think Microsoft
49:25
is the one I was using. They release like this bot
49:27
framework, basically and I remember putting together a
49:30
little mini proof of concept of an access requests kind of
49:33
workflow using a chatbot. This would probably be like 2015
49:37
or 16. And the idea was, you know, you
49:40
have this chat bot that runs on your Enterprise environment and
49:43
based on keywords that you would tell it.
49:46
It would say, oh, it sounds like you are asking for active
49:50
directory. And the struggle that I had at
49:52
the time was well, nobody calls everything, the same thing, it's
49:56
active directory, it's 80 and you start.
49:58
I start any of those lists of well.
49:59
How many different permutations on the name of a system are
50:02
there? And what if I miss one?
50:04
Now all of a sudden the thing doesn't know what you're talking
50:06
about. So I think this is is an area
50:08
where I'm curious to see if chatbots, you know, start to
50:11
leverage that. And we were kind of already
50:12
seeing things like chat GPT and and the Bing and Google bar and
50:17
stuff like that. But it just it was a blast of
50:19
the past when you kind of mentioned that know, I'm curious
50:22
because way by the way, I can attest to Jeff actually doing
50:26
Zubaz, not a made-up story. I was just test on me.
50:29
So every day, it was like, hey, I made an improvement to the
50:32
chat pod, why don't you go in there and try something?
50:35
But I am, you know, there's misspelling.
50:37
I think is when you see chatbots, a lot.
50:39
Now it's comes up with like four options.
50:43
You can either click on the option or type a number or
50:46
letter to indicate what you want to do and you want to go off
50:49
script here. Taking a big chance you're
50:51
probably going to get nothing back.
50:54
Yep. Okay.
50:56
So that was the AI at the center portion of the show as we are.
50:59
I think we're going to have to start calling it because we keep
51:01
getting into this Eric, you've been really great through time
51:04
when I make sure you can kind of, get on with your evening.
51:07
Here, I know that there was some discussion before the show about
51:11
you're a surfer. And so I want you to be our
51:14
surfing correspondent and maybe I've never been surfing.
51:19
So how do I surf teach me to Surf?
51:23
Like what is the thing that I should be doing other than okay.
51:25
Grab a board. Is there a specific board she'll
51:28
be going to a specific like beginners Beach.
51:31
Do I do balance things at home. I'm going to I'm a standing desk
51:34
right now and I'm one of those Balance boards right now but I
51:37
have a feeling If you throw me in the ocean, I am not staying
51:39
upright. Help me out here.
51:41
Well, I am honored to be your you're surfing correspondent.
51:46
I hope I can live up to expectations.
51:50
I think to answer your question on, what's the best way to learn
51:54
to serve? Probably find a place that has
51:57
really warm water, so you can spend a lot of time trying
52:02
practice. It's not something that you most
52:05
people pick up very quickly because there's a whole lot that
52:08
goes into it. So if you do a place, I think
52:12
one of the best places to start of all things is Waikiki and
52:17
believe it or not. That's a, it's actually a
52:19
man-made Beach, that whole area was manufactured.
52:24
And why that's nice. Nice.
52:25
Is the waters really warm and there's no coral reef and
52:29
there's no rocks that you can get hurt on and you can be out
52:32
there from dawn to dusk and there's no sharks that are going
52:37
to mess with you. So if I would say find a place
52:40
like that, that's warm. If you can't make it to Waikiki,
52:44
Costa Rica is great and you know probably places in the
52:50
Northeast, believe it or not like surfing up in New York, I
52:53
like a place called Montauk. And the water gets warm there in
52:57
the, in the Summers, I grew up surfing in in Santa Cruz and San
53:02
Francisco. And you have to have a wetsuit
53:04
and think about sharks more than you want to.
53:07
So you have to really want, if you're going to start in cold
53:10
water with those kind of conditions, but I would say you
53:14
do get a big board. Some of these foam boards are
53:16
really nice to just get the basics and go to Surf school.
53:21
There's a lot of really good surf, instructors that We'll get
53:26
you on the basics and so much of it has to do with getting up off
53:31
the prone position. So if you are into it, if you've
53:36
ever done burpees, I hate them but there are really good way.
53:40
If you not near the ocean is to get that muscle memory of
53:44
popping up off the board and getting into a stance where your
53:47
feet are on to you. So that's it to recap, warm
53:51
water, go, where there's no rocks.
53:54
There's no sharks And go to a school and then practice at the
53:59
gym. Yeah.
54:01
So if anyone has ever seen my waistline, they know I don't do
54:03
burpees gym. On the other hand definitely
54:05
does burpees does the type of board matter.
54:08
When you're first starting out, you mentioned a foam board and I
54:10
guess I'm just thinking some sort of polycarbonate or wood
54:14
board or something like that. But phone sounds a heck of a lot
54:16
lighter and maybe it reminds me a little bit like a boogie
54:18
board. I used to do that when I was a
54:20
kid and that was a lot of fun but it's at the same kind of
54:22
concept just longer like a shaper word or yeah.
54:24
That's exactly. Really.
54:25
I do. So take a boogie board and make
54:28
it a little firmer and make it maybe 8 9 feet long and the
54:33
reason I say foam is the alternative is a fiberglass or
54:37
an epoxy board, which is harder you can break those things.
54:41
Like if you hit them on a rock, you're going to behave yourself.
54:44
Yeah well yeah yourself for sure but yeah the foam boards there's
54:49
one called a wave storm that they sell at Costco in Hawaii
54:53
which is I just bought My daughter her first surfboard two
54:57
years ago and that's what we got or and yeah.
55:01
So it's just longer the board, the more buoyant it is and allow
55:05
you to float more. You'll see people on Shore
55:10
towards like 5 foot 6 foot boards and the ones that you see
55:15
on magazines. And people that that's like air
55:18
quotes surfing. The one I'm talking about is
55:21
starting on longboarding so a longboard and a shortboard.
55:24
Those are kind of two. Different sports but it's much
55:27
easier to learn a longboard than a shortboard.
55:30
You don't have to have the same kind of experience or balance
55:32
and yeah, you go to places like I'm describing, you're not going
55:37
to have any problems with the locals, you're just there to
55:39
have a good time and don't give up.
55:42
That's the other thing I find so often people if they're, they're
55:47
too hard on themselves and they say, oh, if I can go out and one
55:50
day and learn to serve, I'll never figure it out.
55:54
I've been surfing since I was 13 and that's a long, long time and
56:01
I now live away from the ocean. So I only infrequently get out
56:06
to go surfing. So it's very humbling when you
56:09
are like I haven't served from like six months and you paddle
56:13
out and you're like, oh my God, I'm exhausted.
56:15
Well, it's because you don't use it, you lose it.
56:18
So I just encourage people just give themselves time say, hey
56:22
I'll learn it. Maybe if I can Right away.
56:25
My my stomach that's great for day, 1 and day 2.
56:28
If I can get onto my knees, that's a huge accomplishment.
56:31
And if you're standing up in your surfing within a couple
56:34
days, you're doing amazing. So don't give up.
56:37
Don't be hard on yourself. So 13 years old, I was like,
56:41
what? Probably?
56:41
What your first identity company seems like Jim.
56:47
Have you ever been surfing? I've tried it unsuccessfully.
56:52
I've tried skiing unsuccessfully.
56:54
I just I don't have balance but let me give one pro tip for
56:59
anybody. Who's going to try it.
57:00
Don't wear your hearing aids into the ocean.
57:05
It's a losing proposition. I actually did that this weekend
57:08
lost to hearing aid. It's very expensive to have
57:12
replaced somewhere in the Atlantic ruined my day.
57:15
You see, there's no bad day at the beach, try losing a, you
57:19
know, Half of a fifty four hundred dollar hearing aids that
57:22
there's no such thing as a bad day at the beach.
57:25
All right. Well, thanks for thanks for
57:27
giving us another donor and the lighter note.
57:30
No matter what I can. I can bring it down to the level
57:33
that I wanted to be. Remember I was fighting for the
57:36
let's and the show talking about shark attacks.
57:40
Yeah, I mean I tried to spend to a positive but hey just when you
57:43
think you know we got away Jimmy the shark comes up and pulls us
57:47
back into the depths. So All right, let's go ahead and
57:51
leave it there for this week. Eric, thank you so much for your
57:54
time. I actually learned quite a bit
57:56
here and hopefully others did too kind of the definition and
57:58
kind of the difference between policy and orchestration and
58:02
sort of run time and and other things like that.
58:05
So people go back and listen. I think we probably have to have
58:06
you back. Definitely.
58:07
When you guys are ready to share what you're working on the AI
58:09
side, come back and let's figure out because you get something.
58:12
I'm really interested in is how identity companies are going to
58:14
leverage sort of this era of AI that we're moving into.
58:19
We'll have your LinkedIn profile in our show notes for people to
58:23
reach out. If they've got questions, you
58:24
have an interesting one as I'm noticing here.
58:27
Linkedin.com / bought not sold. What does that mean?
58:32
I think I know what it means, but tell me.
58:33
Well, it means that I think when you have people who are trying
58:40
to acquire technology, whatever it is the day of the hardcore
58:48
sales rap, Calling you and just saying, hey, let's get on that
58:51
Discovery call and do this thing.
58:53
And they're pushing and pushing, and pushing, that's selling and
58:57
I think, with the way the world works today, people don't want
59:01
to be sold to, they want to buy something.
59:04
And so you flip the whole conversation 180 degrees and
59:08
then you allow people to find what they're looking for.
59:11
And you give them content, you make them informed, and if you
59:15
treat them right by giving them what they need to make their
59:19
own. Own decision, then they're going
59:21
to buy it. So I say technology the future
59:24
identity should be bought not sold.
59:28
I like it and that's exactly what I was thinking.
59:29
So, great minds think alike. I guess we'll also have a link.
59:33
Also to strata strata iost ra ta dot io on our show notes so
59:39
people can check out, we guys are doing especially the
59:41
Mavericks platform sounds. Very cool.
59:43
I've seen, you know, some things around it so it's definitely
59:45
something people should be checking out it just one more
59:48
question. We go any further.
59:50
So, I just thought of this strata, how did you come up with
59:53
that name? So, strata in the clouds, the
59:58
highest in the outermost atmosphere is the stratosphere
1:00:01
all other clouds exists inside of that Stratosphere and the
1:00:06
notion of a strata or layers. And so, you think about the
1:00:10
orchestration layer at the very top, all the clouds, and all the
1:00:13
idps fit inside of that. And that's why we manage
1:00:16
everything from the top. Allow you to have whatever.
1:00:19
A cloud that you want and that became strata the layers of
1:00:22
identity. I like it.
1:00:25
I'll always love hearing Clapper stories around different
1:00:27
product, names, and, and Company, and stuff like that.
1:00:30
So, that's a cool one to. All right, we're going to leave
1:00:32
it this week. Don't forget about our discount
1:00:35
code for authenticate idea. See 15, 15 podcasts.
1:00:40
That's 15% off. Our registration fees have a
1:00:43
bunch of like in our show notes for people to check it out as
1:00:45
well. We're on the web, idac
1:00:47
podcast.com Twitter at idac podcast, Mastodon at IGA, see
1:00:53
podcast, At infosec data exchange and Jim and I are
1:00:57
always willing to connect on LinkedIn.
1:00:59
Actually got a really nice email from someone I shared with Jim
1:01:01
and around trust in h.r. which I thought was kind of interesting.
1:01:05
So I've got that saved away. I think we're going to probably
1:01:08
tackle that next couple episodes so Marcus if you're listening, I
1:01:12
know you probably had a bunch of to catch up on but you're going
1:01:14
to hit that one in the next few episodes here.
1:01:16
So yeah, with that, we'll go ahead and leave it for this
1:01:19
week. Thanks Jim for your time.
1:01:20
Thanks Eric for your time and we'll talk with everyone.
1:01:23
In the next one, you've been listening to Identity at the
1:01:27
center. We hope you've enjoyed the show,
1:01:30
make sure to like rate and review and we'll be back soon,
1:01:34
but in the meantime, hit the website at identity at the
1:01:38
center.com and find us on Twitter at ivac podcast.
1:01:44
See you next time on identity at the center,