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Buildings and Light with Paul Rogers · Sunlight Matters

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: On the one hand we have people really waking up to the health aspects that I've heard it likened to to having uh a good exercise regime, a good light hygiene is is has huge benefits.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, we have property values going through the roof and the need to build that.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately there's sort of basic ways you're gonna interact with the building, right?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it too hot or cool?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is the air fresh?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: And after that, you know, or or maybe at the same level is is daylight, is sort of the handshake of the building in in many ways.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us with the sun.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Join us as we explore the power and influence of our staff, the force at the heart of everything.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode we speak with leading experts to uncover the ways sunlight shapes our world.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to today's episode of Sunlight Matters.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: And joining me on a lovely sunny day uh is Paul Rogers from Stockholm.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, Paul, I don't know whether it's sunny in Stockholm, but it's certainly sunny here in the UK.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, Dave.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can say that in Stockholm today it is not that sunny.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh actually we're glad to see the rain.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: It has it's been a rather dry period.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I just got back from the summer house in Spain yesterday, and I saw I still have a tan, so it's really nice to sort of show off that tan at work.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of flaunting it a little bit, I must say.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I yeah, I I've just had a nice holiday as well.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of interesting getting away before the summer actually starts, so I sort of feel unprepared for the sunshine to come.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I do I do find that uh the the body can be very thirsty for sunshine.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I get sort of topped up uh often in Spain and and I feel a lot more relaxed afterwards.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the rain doesn't bother me so much afterwards.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and it's interesting because you you introduced us to Arnie Loden and we we recorded a brilliant podcast with him about uh winter in the in the in the northern northern sort of territories.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh he was talking about actually one of the things that you should think about if you do get things like seasonal uh depression due to sort of lack of sunlight is actually to just go abroad.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, it sounds like uh we've both taken his advice before we got it, and uh yeah, it's great.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I mean it it just it it adds so much to to get that extra dose and uh you come back and maybe it's not so much the weather isn't something that concerns you that it's raining or foggy, or maybe you appreciate that a little more because you're not sort of your body's not screaming for for for getting uh getting its dosage.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, indeed, indeed.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you work for ACC Glass and Facade Consultants.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Would you be able just to tell us a bit about what who they are and what they do?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're about 35 people, offices both in Stockholm and Gothenburg.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're a facade uh uh consultancy company, so um we have all sorts of specialized services from construction, inspection, uh we have a calculation department for daylight and and uh uh thermal comfort.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'm part of the Daylight Thermal Comfort Group.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and we have some very interesting group of people from sort of all over the world that have have come here to work in Sweden.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Some very, very bright people.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I guess there's a bit of a brain drain from from places like Greece and Spain and and Bulgaria.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that we we have people from I I uh fantastic people to work with and very, very interested, passionately interested in everything that has to do with the sun.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: We can sit down and really uh when I first started this uh specialty in in all things daylight, sunlight, uh I was sort of all alone.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh end of the nineties, not not there were so many people that were interested, but it's become rather uh topical in in the last decade and uh it's sort of a dream come true to sort of sit around with other daylight sunlight nerds and and to be able to talk about equation of time or or any of these kind of very obscure solar related uh things.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm interested.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So what what what I mean you talk about being there in the nineties.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: What what what what's your background and how did you sort of suddenly say, well actually sunlight really matters?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well I'm I'm uh uh I'm educated as an architect uh in in the nineties and uh uh came out in ninety five.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I did a thesis um I guess over the course of of my masters uh I got l quite frustrated by people saying, okay, this design works a certain way.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's energy efficient or it has good daylight, and and I was very much into, well, you need to show that.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: You need to prove it.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time I I I did notice in myself that that I w it was daylight and sunlight was very important to me.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I sort of went out on a mission and I became very scientifically focused in in the uh preparation of my master's thesis.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: It was almost like starting a new degree.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of engineering which I had to sort of learn learn on my own.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it took me sort of a four years uh to do the thesis.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now I was also working uh um professionally at the same time.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was a nice mix, but uh it it very much became to me interested in in how buildings, the energies of the world, uh the natural energy of our planet interacts with the built form that we have.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we came out uh uh of school, you know, uh just to the dawn of the two thousands and uh there weren't so many people interested.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I got by for the first five years making pretty pictures and renderings.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which is a kind of simulation.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And but I didn't realize like after six years how much I hated it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because i you know, it's it's blue skies and balloons and happy babies, and it's the opposite of what I wanted to do, right?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was sort of the a sales job on on on something which was a bit false.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so my employer at the time was good enough to we had a good talk and and they were good um they had enough vision.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was Bao, architecture here in Stockholm, and they had enough vision to see that, well, this was something that that we should let this this this guy do.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh from then on, um I was very lucky that there was a time when uh third party building certification was starting to really take stride.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I started generally working with certification, but I got very interested in in daylight and it I was sort of became one of the few people at the time that was experienced in that and knew how to do simulations.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: And from there the I just started to hire really talented people.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh really to me they're the best of the best.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh uh some of them have been with me eight, ten years now.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's been been quite an inspirational journey actually to be able to do what I really want to do.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's been a dream come true.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just and that's basically to think about the sun and the sky.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean it's I it's incredible when you actually talk about it that you know you going back a few years or a few decades, that we'd kind of almost lost that connection with the sun.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and thank goodness we're sort of now back in a position where lots more people are really sort of interested in that connection.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you you know, I guess architecture's embracing it.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll talk a bit more about architecture.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: But but I but but I was just wondering if you could talk about why you think sunlight is so important to humans.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think as a as a practitioner, we normally uh divide between daylight and and sunlight.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um the daylight is often what the codes are based on, and a lot of the scientific literature refers to the health benefits of daylight.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what sunlight is of course is the direct beam from a clear clear sky or or or or directly from the sun.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think that sort of the subtlety is missed there because I think that's what most people respond to.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So if I talk to my mom there in Canada, uh my uh 86 year old mom, and I say, you know, Alec, how was how was your day?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she she'll talk about how the s sunlight streams into the living room and and how that that improves her m her mood.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think this this sort of patterning of sunlight, it's really underestimated uh not not just generally, but even when we start talking about daylight in in terms of architecture, the the patterning of of the direct beam uh over the course of the day and and the year and how that changes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a number of y years ago uh I did an article for DA magazine where we took four famous buildings uh and and examined how light sort of the patterning of light over the year and and and uh over the day uh how how it differed and and sort of some of the deeper meaning behind that.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's something really fundamental about when our buildings have that interaction and interplay with with the sun.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: It sort of ties us to some sort of I I don't want to sound too crazy here, but it's it it i it ties us to something that is timeless and is fundamental to to all life on earth.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's it's really inspirational.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it it is it goes beyond just sort of the joy or or inspiration that we get out of it.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: It also goes back to sort of our roots as as human beings on the earth.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: I it's really interesting because I guess and I y you know, I I I'd be interested in your perspective about some of the older buildings and you know if you've if you've looked at sort of the impact of sunlight on kind of famous buildings.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: Did did architects you know, I guess a few hundred years ago, were they really thinking about the interaction of the other?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I do think so.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: In particular those buildings that didn't have electrical light, which which came mu much later.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I think there's certainly a uh a uh sort of a fingertip feeling for daylight, even maybe up to the fifties or sixties.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: It was sort of part of what you needed to make a good building.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the best architecture in and how it relates to daylight is from from the fifties.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think those people, you know, they didn't have simulation tools.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Instead they used often paper models and and and worked on the detail level.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Alvar Alto is one that I always uh talk about, a Finnish architect, where there's so many variations of skylights and and playing with the aperture and looking how light spreads in different manners.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: That that can only be doing done through modeling.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and probably uh at the top well, at the time be physical modeling, but I I do think that maybe that's something that's lost.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: In in the education, I f I think somewhere around the 60s, 70s, 80s, there became to be more of a focus on other things.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's societal aspects, I'm not sure.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that I'm not saying that's for the worse.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh only that daylight dropped off the agenda a little bit.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And with the the the generation of architects that are going on on pension now, that maybe that that was priorized less than it would have been previously.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um some of the some of the greatest buildings of course are are uh working with daylight.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the Pantheon, we go all the way back to to that.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that was one of the buildings we looked at and just how it's patterning was so so unique.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then just about just about any um uh anything from uh where you have often two orientations and and uh there's all sorts of different variations.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I if somebody would pay me full time to go through and just make case studies of these old buildings, that's what I would do because there's there's so much to learn and learn from the well I I mean we we met the because I think you'd found Shadow Map online and you know that was uh uh I I think the interaction we had, but it's sort of one of the things that I'm interested in in using a tool like Shadow Map is actually you know putting models of older buildings in and then you know going back into what did the sun in particular look like in sort of 2000 BC or whatever.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and and I think orientation is so key.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's uh a famous church in um uh uh by the architect Jaran Utson, uh who also did the Sydney Opera House.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's called uh Bagsad Cathedral.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh it's my Jainish is not not as good as my Swedish, but um uh anyways, it uh it was it's really interesting.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: There you if you look, like you say, if you put it into Shadow Map and you look at it, and what you see is there's sort of an inner chamber and then there's an outer chamber.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: The outer chamber has skylights, and the inner chamber is open to the west.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you put it into shadow mapper you can see, okay, well, it early in the morning it's gonna be lit in one way.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be lit from the perimeter with this diffuse light.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then at a certain time, with Shadow Mapper will tell you exactly what time it is, the sun's gonna come around to the west and it's gonna start going into that other aperture and it's gonna quickly change and it's gonna become something totally else.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Where it was sort of all about the perimeter light from from the sky earlier, and then in the late afternoon, it becomes all about this west facing aperture and the dynamism that that it provides.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it just sort of yeah, we we tend to look a little bit more uh in our investigations on the interior level, but it starts with that looking, putting it in into the into a uh a plan and and looking at those cardinal points, east, west, north, south, very very important stuff.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this gets a little back to your Stonehenge kind of idea that this is where we come from, you know.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean if I I I I totally agree.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and it's the I mean I it's interesting you've kind of made that distinction between daylight and sunlight.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that y you know, as you've been talking, it's sort of the pennies dropping in my head.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, like so many, I think you I sort of bunch them together, but they're two very Yeah, well I guess because it goes back to when we needed to calculate by hand.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So the diffuse light from the sky, daylight, was one thing.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very good for looking for compliance with building regulations and but it's not insensitive to direction, to cardinal points.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: But then also you had uh more of an angular calculation which was for direct sun.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why or sunlight.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And th that's why those traditionally are are handled differently.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And now with there are is, for example, a European daylight standard which allows you to sort of bake those two into one, which is a much nicer calculation because uh we're often sort of in this daylight factor diffuse sky, and and s so our our clients will say, well, how can that building how can that room be so bad?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's open to the south.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have to explain, well, daylight factor doesn't see that.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well tell you those people living there will see that.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they i th so there's there's sort of a fatal flaw in a lot of the way our codes are built.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And of course we've tried there's been a lot of discussion about going over the European standard methods, but uh industry, the building industry uh uh is normally fairly conservative on a lot of fronts.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not about to jump into say a new comp uh more complex metric, which maybe is a little more difficult to understand, more complex to to calculate.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing is there's such uh uh a benefit of doing that way because it's so much closer to what our perceptions are.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's been a bit lukewarm for the European standard.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that on its next generation that that hopefully uh it'll be picked up a little more by the by the legislature legislators.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and those standards, I guess you know, we've got within our legislator, I mean I guess in the UK, for example, you've got a right to light, which is sort of written into our into our legal framework.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a bit of a second, that's a bit of a like you have you have both the code, the building code, but you don't have a mandatory in the UK, and that's really too bad.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: But then you have the right to light, which is a separate system.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well that's I I mean that's interesting because I you know I and I you'll forg have to forgive me because I don't understand what where all of these things sit.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean there's a I I I was reading a very interesting legal case about uh a couple who uh are suing a developer because essentially they've lost their afternoon sunlight.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not daylight, it's sunlight uh because uh someone's built a whacking great tower uh near them which sort of blocks out the afternoon sun.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it again it was interesting because I modelled it all out on Shadow Map, and you can kind of see why they might be slightly pissed off, to be honest with you.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: I but I just I just wondered if you you know with your knowledge you've kind of got any thoughts on that and and uh other things which are kind of going on, because I guess as people move into cities and there's pressure on cities, you're seeing a lot more kind of tall buildings being built, and that will impact people's lives, won't it?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I read about that one.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I get quite excited when I see that that somebody stands up and and and and sort of can put their foot and that the legislative framework works.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh with densification, you know, over the past few years uh th the housing's been a little bit slower in the new new starts.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we've had a bit of a shift and in uh a lot of what we do now is with regards to, as you say, people who complain whether or not uh they somebody's taking their daylight and sunlight.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's really fantastic.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I wish more people would do it because I do think it does affect people.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what I like about this case is somebody just sort of stood up and said, you know, this is uh and they were able to because they were able to get the process to work for them.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Quite often I'll see a complainant make the complaint too soon or too late in the process.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: So even though they have a valid complaint that they haven't understood the process well enough to get to to get it going.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's really too bad.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of stuff that gets approved that shouldn't get approved if people uh if people are informed.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess we get we can get back to uh a tool like Shadow Mapper, which I I'm a big fan of it because it democratizes they don't people don't have to rely necessarily on a on a daylight specialist, they c they can go and sort of take a look themselves and say, hey, this okay, I'm gonna I'm going to lose between two in the afternoon to sunset on for three quarters of the year.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: So they can have a little bit of an idea of the impact on on their own.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I I just I tremendic I'm tremendously excited when when somebody is thinks it's important enough and and to lift it up uh into into the uh because because it is it is something that is valuable.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um to take to take somebody's light away is is a terrible thing.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and obstructing somebody else's sky to the point where where they may not even see the sky at all.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to see weather variation in the same way if you don't if you don't see the sky.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's quite inhuman to I I I I agree.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I think it's it's sort of almost like it's not until well, I think some of us are very sensitive to like you know, so I I uh I I suffer from seasonal depression, you know, I I'm very in tune with the circadian rhythm, so I tend to get up early when it's light.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: All of these things.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it would be a real impact on me if s if my light kind of got taken away.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there's a whole group of people who may not be so in touch, but when it does get taken away, are like, oh my goodness, yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: My life is not as good as it was before.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I I often see that with new built properties, where uh people they'll look at a plan, they'll say, Okay, well the kitchen's here, the kids' bedrooms is gonna be here, this plan looks good to me.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And meanwhile, it's say it's a very dark apartment and people don't know until they've lived there for half a year, and then they go, Oh, okay, we we don't want to s this is th this is depressing.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to be here.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel a little bit as though it would be nice if if that dialogue was taken within the purchase process of of an apartment.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh of course of course it's not, and and and a lot of people they there's so many things on people's tables, you know, like d proximity to schools and uh and and and work and and all sorts of things going going on.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's difficult sometimes to maybe catch all these variables, but I do believe like a a really big portion of people, once they've moved in, they'll be affected by that, or it's something that they will feel.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm sure you talked with Arnie Loden a little bit about this.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: There are different chronotypes, and there are different sensitivities.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Some of us are are are are very driven by this uh and others uh th their circadian rhythms may be a little bit different and and not as as uh affected.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I I do wish there would be more of a dialogue about it because ultimately there's sort of basic ways you're gonna interact with a building, right?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is is it too hot or cold?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is the air fresh?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and after that, you know, or or maybe at the same level is is daylight and sunlight, is is sort of the handshake of the building in in many ways.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it would be nice if i you know it's i i it's not just about the price.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean I mean it's it's fascinating because we've got um so shadow maps in a couple of property platforms, and one of the stats which I find incredible is as people go down that sort of uh funnel of choosing a house, they're using it more and more.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, you know, over fifty percent of people on one platform are using it before they basically have to buy it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Really agree.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, as a kind of check and balance on a property, it seems to be something that you know for 50% of people it's really important.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've had twice over my uh I've I've been specialized in this for 15 years, and twice over those fifteen years somebody's called me who's looking to buy a flat and asked me what I think what my appraisal is.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: One guy, uh he um I told him that the one he was looking at, you know, is not very good.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: So he uh he called me back a couple days later and said, What do you think of the one that's two above it?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so he actually went and paid more money, and and that was good because it really helped him make a decision that he could live with, literally.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so but of course I can't do that for everybody, so it's great that you can offer that because you know I didn't I don't charge anything for that.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I just like that people are engaged, but that people can take that into their own hands and and they can weigh different options and stuff like that.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: In Sweden, I I think something funny's happened here, and and uh I'd like to bring it up.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's so throughout the 30s to the 50s there was a real uh push for fresh air and and and access to light and exercise and healthy healthy living.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so a balcony generally is only within, say, 90 degrees of south.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: You rarely in that time got a balcony facing a different direction.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: So people grew up uh thinking a and and not just the people in those generations, but people shortly after because they lived with those balconies, they grew up on those balconies.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like a social contract of a balcony, you have a certain you carry with you a certain expectation that it's gonna have a direct sun.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that it's gonna have direct sun.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the way it is now is that we build so dense and you have these balconies that are way down in the courtyard and maybe they're not they're not they're they're not facing south anymore.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you have balconies on two sides.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people see, oh, this this b oh I get a balcony, and then in their head they have this expectation of a certain amount of direct sun.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: But then when they move in they realize, you know, there's there's a minute of direct sun over the entire year.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it would have been nice to have known that beforehand.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: They they assume, as I say, there's a social idea of what a balcony is.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: All balconies had sun, so uh the expectation that in this new building that the balcony has sun.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then it doesn't.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you paid for it anyways.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like I'd like to see I'd like to see again more people uh taking that interest and and to say, well, this balcony, this balcony fits me very well, insofar as I'm at home in the afternoon and I can see when I get home their sun just starting to to to reach this balcony.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or I like breakfast in the mornings, this balcony I can get between nine o'clock and eleven thirty.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have sun.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So to sort of match your own sort of what you want that balcony to do with the solar the movement of the sun, I I think is a is a unique unique opportunity.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I would like to see a rating system for balconies, but of course this the developers are not one to to jump on board for that.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're busy selling, you know, lots of lots of different balconies, different orientations.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it works against their interests to sort of reveal what they're actually selling.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: But I think I mean this is why I guess things like this conversation are so important.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: So you get people to think about this before they make a they make a mistake, which they then spend year, you know, sometimes years regretting.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's it just because we're you know we're pondering about moving house and um we started actually looking in the winter and I've decided that you should always go and find a new house in the middle of winter because then you understand what it's really like.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: But now, you know, it's summer and everybody's out, you know, spring's coming and everybody's out trying to find houses, and of course you know, you have a and it's so it's it's really kind of fascinating because uh as I say, I'm affected and you know you just don't want to make that wrong decision.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I I I was even reading some research that like I think it's in China or Japan that you know a well-lit a not a well-lit house, a house with lots of sunlight will command a sort of seven to ten percent premium in terms of its value.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: So there's kind of value in sunlight.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I think that's I think that's true anyway.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the as you move up the the pricing tends to go up, and that's all daylight views and access to sunlight and to some degree access to to fresh air.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's always been that way.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um my I think what what's important to me, I mean, the people that have the money, they'll they always find good views in daylight and access to sunlight.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: They always have it, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a commodity.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: What is the interest of me to me is that everybody is empowered that we don't go beyond a minimum level.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: We don't say, well, this person they are sort of the lower end of the z uh uh of the income chain, so it's okay if they don't see the sky.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think is they're probably w they might be working a job in a shopping center m shopping center where they don't see the sky there either.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um so to sort of protect at the l at the at the lower end of the income scale.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and this this goes to students.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: In Sweden they've they're starting to really make special considerations for student housing.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and students, of course, i they're some of the most prone, young women in particular, to depression, may not have access to to to daylight and and here we are s taking a group which is sort of in terms of daylight maybe already marginalized and saying, well this is okay if your housing is you know, you don't need direct sun, you don't need you don't need much daylight, you don't need to see the sky.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think there is a health connection there, and I I I'm not sure that the legislatures have made it or or maybe they're under too much political pressure just to build things.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's more accurate is the people who make the codes suspect and would like it a particular way, but then the political will to back them up on that statement, I think, is is probably a reality, particularly you know, in the in the climate of deregulation.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it but again it's fascinating because uh you know, just behind me is this incredible resource which uh you know powers life and it makes us not having that as a kind of primary consideration in terms of health I I i i is sort of extraordinary.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: fifties or sixties where um we kind of lost touch with that and you know I think it was around that time that capitalism really kind of kicked off and well I think y what happened i i when I think about what happens here in Sweden the thirties, the forties, uh the fifties there was a lot of um maybe smaller scale buildings, three to four uh story and then they were quite successful.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: They often had windows that were a little bit larger and and um maybe even thin window frames and and balconies oriented rightly.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then what happened is we moved into sixties and then the population boom after the war and and you really had a problem with all those baby boomers kids looking for a place to live and so then mass mass production came into it and you got you got neighborhoods that were sort of machine processed that actually f had fairly good daylight and sunlight.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: But they weren't really neighborhoods.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there's been this swing in the pendulum back to try to create a more uh uh uh a courtyard structured uh which is not which is not great for daylight but maybe a little better for for making a a uh a neighborhood as as opposed to a machine for living which is th and they because in that machine it was sort of rows of very tall buildings that were based on sunlight angles.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And although they had good daylight sunlight and and uh and fresh air that they maybe had some dead spaces it was green space between them but i it i socially maybe it wasn't the best.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's difficult to balance those those two this sort of well how do we make towns that are uh have density that that that has some sense of community but at the same time let in d enough daylight and sunlight that that people are are are are happy.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not an easy question and and um they're sort of both extremes.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like w we shouldn't be designing only for daylight.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it should be part of the conversation when we are designing for these other these other social factors and and many other factors that that that affect uh the decisions we make on the urban planning level.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: No it's it's it's fascinating.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: It really is fascinating.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I guess if you go back to town planners from you know a couple of centuries ago they understood the importance of things like green spaces and you know as you say there were big windows and uh things like that.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's kind of interesting that we've kind of that's become part of the narrative again and I think it's thanks to people like yourself who've kind of made sure that it is part of the Well the the two things we're up against now are are just the demand for density and property values.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: On the one hand we have people really waking up to the health aspects.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: It it I've heard it likened to to having uh a good exercise regime you know a a a good uh light hygiene uh i is uh is has huge benefits.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we have people waking up to that.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh on the other hand we have uh property values going through the roof and and a need to to build densely and that's a pretty big juggernaut.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's there's m there's money involved there and and it it's difficult often to to provide a counterweight for those interests.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course we also have with climate change a a really smart focus on energy.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: But of course saving energy also often works against daylight.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: It wants smaller windows, thicker buildings maybe even darker glass so we're trying to balance on the one hand the the people's need but then these other factors that that prevail.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I think it's a constant battle.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I I don't say the the health aspects it it's good to have some momentum there but at the same time I I I feel like we're not gaining or or or losing much territory.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: In fact in fact we probably lose a little more than we gain.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we we need to really stay active and and have in the conversations with people because when you start talking to people about it you you find out that it's really important to them.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's fascinating.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well listen we're we're sort of running out of time I I mean I could literally talk all day about this it's your experience and insight are just so amazing.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: So you know I think we should plan to have another podcast at some point and perhaps we can go into a lot more detail about home design and office design and I'd really I'd really like that that would be great.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Arnie was talking about offices where you know have greenhouses being built on so people can kind of get out into greenhouses in the London you know so there's lots of things kind of going on which we we we should talk about.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have I have quite a few buildings some of which I I've lived in or uh which which uh I I very would like to speak about I think i i it it's so interesting with these these buildings that um it's it's you know you y when you go to buy uh a a property you have this idea of of how it will perform but you don't you don't really know and and you maybe have these preconceived ideas but uh a tool like Shadow Mapper can can help you with that.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also after live so much depends on location of course, but this sort of patterning of light over over the over the year and and just what it can bring and it it's a bit like a per it's a bit like meeting somebody w where I mean nobody's perfect and and you you realize that okay this is pretty much what I thought but then there's aspects which you never could conceive of and that's sort of what I feel like when you live in a house for a while and and just sort of the intimacy of the subtle interplays of light.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's something we could discuss uh obviously it and it's it's uh I I have m I have many stories I'd I'd I'd like to tell about uh the buildings I've the buildings I've known uh yeah it's interesting I mean I've I I I'd love to tell you a bit about the house I'm in and exactly that intimate relationship exactly and I think that would that would be very interesting thing to to um to continue to talk about but because as as you do that people begin to relate to their own experiences and think about what's important to them.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I it'll always surprise you.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: I often say I'd like to live in a building I need to be in a building a year to really understand.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now daylight simulation will help a little bit uh if really deep daylight not just code stuff but really deep daylight simulation but there is ultimately this sort of visceral relationship you have with light and and and that familiarity of your of your own space which I I think is is a tremendously exciting aspect of us as human beings.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well I think in it it kind of goes to the fact that we we we have this relationship with sun and light which is sort of one of the well it is the primary or one of the primary relationships we have, but we often don't think about it.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: So actually taking it for granted yeah exactly.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit like fresh air right I mean exactly so these things which we take for but actually when you kind of stop and ponder them and their importance you realize that there's so much going on the whole time.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know we're making adjustments sort of mentally physically the whole time to kind of optimise this.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because our bodies are sort of scru telling us that they kind of need it.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway listen we'll save that for the next podcast but I did want to know if you had the perfect place to have a house and perfect orientation where would it be well I think this gets a little bit into what we were uh looking to pick up on the next uh podcast but I I do think that um there are some basic tips I can I can have and and uh something that I'd like to follow up later on but I do think it's important that that you're not getting um every climate has a different relationship and for me that was one of the reasons why I was drawn to buy also a second house in in Spain because I want to learn another climate.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And just i again it's a bit like people, you know, as you learn that other uh it was funny because Shadow Mapper wasn't really around when we bought our apartment and I said to my wife it i our place has a large outdoor terrace and it it goes from west and it stretches around to the north.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: The it it's is it's only fifty square meters in the apartment it's a fifty square meter terrace.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to my wife Well that north side it's cool I don't know how much sun it gets.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: Of course I'm thinking from my Scandinavian you know long shadows and sure enough of course the shadow it's all of ten centimeters you know already in April.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had I I because I didn't I didn't have that familiarity with it.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now I did of course when we bought the place I had these sort of diagrams out.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I still even though I'm a specialist I didn't really understand that kind of um but that would sort of be my ultimate I guess where you have this interaction between indoor and outdoor and and and windows on on different sides where you could see the interplay uh of of of shadow and and and light throughout throughout the day.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately you you need to there's there's some sort of basic rules like you don't want the light coming deep into the space from the west causing oversheeting and glare.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Of course that's a very big part of being a uh a daylight specialist is working with those as it's not we we we don't just want a lot of daylight we we also want to avoid overheating and glare.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: I want to I want to make that clear but there's certain principles you can use and uh a top lit space for example like a skylight adds a whole new dimension that that really to to see the light patch move and d I often say that if you just have you're really kind of working with one hand behind your back if you're just having vertical windows.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Putting a skylight in really adds an extra amount of pop that a lot of people, you know I uh when I d uh when I turned uh fifty is I was looking at sort of my uh back at my life and I figured, well I have a skylight so that that that made that not me that makes me that me in fact I I have two I have one in my bathroom too and it just yeah for for me it it adds so much.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Not just the volume of light but to to see the that that connection with the sky.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would say ultimately um you you need uh a building that r respects the the different solar patterns w whether that's in Alicante, Spain like we have or whether it's in Stockholm or or in the UK where wherever you are you need you need and then to use different orientations that's important as well and and and top lighting.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Rooms with with windows in more than one direction always that's sort of so I won't answer the question directly I'll just really it's really helpful and I love that notion of kind of getting to know the climate as well or the latitude.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah you know so it it that that really kind of speaks speaks volumes.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: So well thank you so much for joining me it's been a brilliant brilliant conversation I look forward to the next one very much.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've enjoyed it very much Dave thank you