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Giving Girls the Tools to Confidently Navigate Puberty, Periods, and Sexuality · Raising Daughters

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Raising Daughters, the podcast that helps parents learn
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: the best ways to support their daughters as they navigate
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the high levels of stress, anxiety, pressure, and uncertainties so
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  Speaker 1: pervasive in our culture today. Doctor Tim Jordan is a
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: developmental and behavioral pediatrician who has specialized in counseling girls
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  Speaker 1: for over thirty years and shed's light on the realities
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: of today's young women in all facets of their lives.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: This is your opportunity to learn how to better support
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: your daughters, making them feel safe, secure, and truly loved
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: in the midst of life's ups and downs. Here is
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  Speaker 1: your host, Doctor Tim.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Hello friends, Welcome back to Raising Daughters. Doctor Tim Jordan here. Now,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: as you know, I have different topics every week with
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: this podcast, and sometimes they're triggered by things that I read,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: or if I've been to camp, or if I've been
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: to a week in retreat, or just very things will
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: kind of prompt me to do a certain topic. But
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I found this link recently, and I really want to
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  Speaker 2: have this guest on because I think we're not doing
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  Speaker 2: a very good job of educating our girls about their bodies,
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  Speaker 2: about puberty, about sexuality, about those sorts of things, and
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  Speaker 2: so I decided to invite a guest on, doctor Melissa Holmes.
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  Speaker 2: And she's a board certifight OPG y N and she
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  Speaker 2: has twenty five years at least experience in working with
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  Speaker 2: girls and young women in that area. And she's an
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: expert adolescent gyecology. And she's also the co founder of
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: two things. One of them is something called the Period
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  Speaker 2: Education Project, which is a not for profit that trains
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  Speaker 2: medical students to deliver menstrual health education to underserved communities,
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  Speaker 2: which is a really awesome thing. But she's also the
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  Speaker 2: founder and this is the part of really what you
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  Speaker 2: all to hear today, and then look and go find
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: the website when we're done. Co founder of something called
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: girl Ology. It's a website slash app which as all
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  Speaker 2: kinds of educational experiences for young girls and also their
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  Speaker 2: their moms to help them to start conversations about their
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  Speaker 2: bodies and puberty. And I saw you on your on
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  Speaker 2: the app it said, we have topics about puberty, What
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  Speaker 2: broad size do I need? Periods, body image concerns, sexuality.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: There's videos for mom, there's all kinds of h They
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  Speaker 2: call it grade by grade playlists to start conversations at
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  Speaker 2: different ages, and so anyway, I want to invite Melissa Holmes,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for being on the podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me and for having this interest
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  Speaker 3: and recognizing that educating girls about their bodies and sexuality
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  Speaker 3: is important because I think sometimes we just forget to
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: talk about it.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we're uncomfortable talking about it. Also.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I think you've been in practice for a while,
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  Speaker 2: for twenty five ish or whatever years, and so I'm
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: wondering what changes you've seen in girls or the questions
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: that they bring or the needs that they may have
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  Speaker 2: today versus you know, twenty years ago.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I mean obviously the Internet changed completely the way
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  Speaker 3: that girls grow up, right, So you know, I think
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  Speaker 3: there for me, I think there's like three big buckets
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  Speaker 3: that where they have I've seen significant change. First is
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  Speaker 3: they're just incredibly more informed. They have unprecedented access to
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  Speaker 3: health information, both you know, factual information, and they're also
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: getting a lot of misinformation and I think that you know,
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: that is causing some increased anxiety in them, which is
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  Speaker 3: kind of the second bucket that I've seen big changes,
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  Speaker 3: which is girls' mental health issues.
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  Speaker 4: Right, So.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I think that in one way, there's a
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  Speaker 3: lot greater awareness about mental health and less taboo talking
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  Speaker 3: about it, which is fantastic. But on the other hand,
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: there's a lot more mental health concerns. I see more
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: body image problems, I see more anxiety, I see more depression,
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: you know, But it's such a mixed bag because I'm
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: sure in your practice too, I mean, we also see
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: these girls who are labeling themselves with diagnoses when really
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  Speaker 3: they're just having some feelings and it's not really pathology yet.
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  Speaker 3: So I think that's something new for me in my practice.
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  Speaker 3: For instance, I had a patient recently who came in
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: telling me she was sure she had PTSD, and I
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  Speaker 3: mean she had just experienced something like the week before, right,
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  Speaker 3: but she's already labeled herself with PTSD, which you have
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: to have.
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  Speaker 4: It for longer than a week.
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  Speaker 3: But they're getting all this information so coming in self diagnosing.
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  Speaker 3: But also we definitely are seeing more mental health problems.
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  Speaker 3: And then in my line of business. The other area
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  Speaker 3: where things have changed pretty drastically is in sexuality.
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  Speaker 4: Girls.
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  Speaker 3: Sexual development has definitely changed over in the past twenty
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  Speaker 3: five years.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, first of.
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  Speaker 3: All, there's a lot earlier sexualization, both from mainstream media
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  Speaker 3: and from their exposure to pornography. Interestingly, even though they're
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: sexualized earlier, they're having less sex than previous generations, their
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  Speaker 3: parents generations, even their grandparents' generations, which.
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  Speaker 4: Is I find really interesting.
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  Speaker 3: And when you look at the statistics, even though they're
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  Speaker 3: having less sex, they're having more STIs, which also tells
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  Speaker 3: me that they're just not protecting themselves. They're a little
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  Speaker 3: more experimental, and so it's kind of this weird space
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  Speaker 3: of kids are waiting longer to have sex, but when
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  Speaker 3: they do, they're more experimental and they're less careful, and
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  Speaker 3: I think that's a place where we really need to
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  Speaker 3: educate girls about safety and their reproductive health because they're
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  Speaker 3: just not getting that.
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  Speaker 2: One of the main questions that girls come to you
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  Speaker 2: with the girls that you're seeing in your clinics, girls
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  Speaker 2: here are on your programs, on your app for a girlology,
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  Speaker 2: what are the most common questions that they bring.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that the most common question, which is
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  Speaker 3: completely developmentally.
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  Speaker 4: Normal, is am I normal?
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  Speaker 3: Right? They all want to know, is my period normal?
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  Speaker 3: Are my breast normal? Are my labia normal? I mean,
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  Speaker 3: that's a new one that has become more popular probably
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  Speaker 3: in the past ten years, and I think it's because
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: of porn. But everything about being normal is this discharge normal.
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  Speaker 3: Are my big feelings normal? So I think am I normal?
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  Speaker 3: Is by far the biggest question I get. But the
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  Speaker 3: other questions I get, I think are just really indicative
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  Speaker 3: of this big educational gap that we see. You know,
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  Speaker 3: I think sex ed twenty years ago is probably better
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  Speaker 3: in schools than it is today. And I get a
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  Speaker 3: lot of questions about sex because I'm a gnecologist and
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  Speaker 3: they're coming to see me for you know, reproductive health
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  Speaker 3: related thing.
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  Speaker 4: But I mean.
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  Speaker 3: Even from for young kids in our programs, Like we
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  Speaker 3: teach a science of reproduction class and we did some
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  Speaker 3: in person, and some of the questions we get are
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  Speaker 3: clearly indicative that these kids are being exposed to porn
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  Speaker 3: at that you know, it's sixth grade, fifth and sixth grade,
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  Speaker 3: So questions about like how do three people have sex?
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  Speaker 3: Or you know, what's in the stuff that squirts out
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  Speaker 3: of a woman during sex? I mean, like how would
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  Speaker 3: they even know to ask that if they hadn't seen porn?
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  Speaker 3: And because these classes, it's interesting, these classes have parents
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  Speaker 3: and kids and the parents are always shocked that these
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  Speaker 3: young kids are asking these questions, but the kids are
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: all like, oh yeah, how does that happen? I mean,
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  Speaker 3: none of them are surprised to hear those questions, So
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  Speaker 3: huge gap in their sexual health education. And then you know,
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  Speaker 3: in my office setting when the girls are a little older,
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  Speaker 3: I'm getting a lot of questions about you know, just
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  Speaker 3: basic questions about sexuality, about orgas on how do I
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: have one?
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  Speaker 4: I'm not sure I ever have, and.
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  Speaker 3: Then also questions about again that kind of point back
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  Speaker 3: to porn like am I supposed to like anal sex?
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  Speaker 3: I don't like it? And you know, the first time
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  Speaker 3: I heard that from a teenage girl, I was shocked.
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  Speaker 3: And then I started hearing that question more in my
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  Speaker 3: office and just realized that these girls are getting their
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  Speaker 3: sex education from pornography, and their partners are too, and
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  Speaker 3: they're doing what they think they're supposed to be doing
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  Speaker 3: based on what they've seen because nobody's talking to them
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  Speaker 3: about what a normal.
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  Speaker 4: Relationship looks like.
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  Speaker 3: So those are the questions that scare me and really
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  Speaker 3: emphasize that there's a big gap in what our kids
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  Speaker 3: need to know and what they're actually learning.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: We're talking to doctor Melissa Holmes. She's an OBGYN doctor
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  Speaker 2: who is also the co founder of an app slash
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  Speaker 2: website called Girlology, which is full of great information, which
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: we'll talk about as we go along. One of the
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: things that's hard today is that girls start going through
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  Speaker 2: puberty earlier, so they look more mature physically earlier, and
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  Speaker 2: I think sometimes we talk to them and treat them
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  Speaker 2: as if they're older, when actually their brains and their
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  Speaker 2: emotional maturity is still sixth grade. I mean, though they
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  Speaker 2: may look like a like a what would have been like,
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  Speaker 2: you know, years ago in eighth grader or twelfth grader
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  Speaker 2: or something.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, that is so common, and especially in the black community.
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  Speaker 3: I mean there's there's been research papers written about the
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  Speaker 3: adultification of young black girls, and so we do that
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  Speaker 3: even more for Black girls than we do for white
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  Speaker 3: and non black girls. But it is really a result
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  Speaker 3: of this hyper sexualization that we've seen in the media
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  Speaker 3: and then people mimicking what they're seeing. So yes, young
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  Speaker 3: girls wearing makeups sooner, wearing different clothing sooner. We think
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  Speaker 3: they look older than they are, but their brains are
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  Speaker 3: not mature enough to handle those pressures or the comments
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  Speaker 3: you know that they get when they're they're looking like that.
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  Speaker 3: And even for our middle schoolers and our young high
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  Speaker 3: schoolers who are trying to dress on trend and they're
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  Speaker 3: trying to look a little bit more mature, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it's it's worth worth it to have a conversation with
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  Speaker 3: them about you know, what are you trying to portray?
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  Speaker 4: Like what what.
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  Speaker 3: Are you trying to to show as you wear this?
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  Speaker 3: Are you trying to look older? Are you just trying
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  Speaker 3: to match your friends? Are you prepared for the comments
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  Speaker 3: you might get? Because you can wear whatever you wear,
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  Speaker 3: nobody has the right to touch you or say anything
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  Speaker 3: to you or do anything related because of what you're wearing,
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  Speaker 3: But are you prepared for comments, cat calls?
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  Speaker 4: You know? I think we just have to.
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  Speaker 3: I think preparation is one of those big things that
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  Speaker 3: we can do for kids. So talking to them young,
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  Speaker 3: talking to them about the reality of what is going
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  Speaker 3: on in our cult.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, whether we like it or not, we have to.
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  Speaker 2: You mentioned the word, I use it a lot to
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  Speaker 2: normalize I uh. Our second camp week this summer with
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  Speaker 2: the high school girls, there's there's a one evening where
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  Speaker 2: they they celebrate their femininity and it's they have all
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: these things that our staff does with them. It's it's
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: awesome the boys have to leave camp. There was three
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  Speaker 2: boys at camp, me and two other men, not boys,
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  Speaker 2: these are men like parents actually, But anyway, but they
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  Speaker 2: were talking before it in our morning session about how
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: they wanted to look. And sometimes there's been years where
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  Speaker 2: they would bring like dresses because they wanted to dress up. Uh,
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  Speaker 2: they would do each other's makeup and then they would
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: take photos of them and all this and then but
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: some of the girls were saying, I think we're getting
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  Speaker 2: away from the spirit of it, which is not about
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: you don't need to have makeup to be pretty. And
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: so there was this back and forth, but it was
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: a beautiful conversation about What they ended up with was
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  Speaker 2: they liked doing their each other make up and stuff
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: because there was such a sense of camaraderie and community
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  Speaker 2: they don't that they don't have very often in their
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  Speaker 2: normal lives. But just give them bring them a platform, yes,
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  Speaker 2: just give them a platform to talk to each other
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  Speaker 2: and listen to each other and normalize their feelings and
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  Speaker 2: because a lot of times they don't know what they're
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: thinking until they can put it out there and listen
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: to it and hear it from other people. I think
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  Speaker 2: that's what your website does a lot for girls and
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  Speaker 2: their moms.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we always try to normalize, you know,
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  Speaker 3: our changing bodies, normalize the fact that, yes, we like
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: to dress up and look fancy, but also recognizing some
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: of the problems that our culture has created about objectifying
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: women and are we dressing to be the object of
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: someone else's gaze or are we dressing because it makes
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: us happy and we feel good.
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  Speaker 4: And so we want to.
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  Speaker 3: Make sure we're directing them to do these things for
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: the right reasons.
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  Speaker 2: So on your website on Girlology, talk to the parents
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: about about how you break down with ages, like what's
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: the educational platform Like, Yeah.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: So we started in the puberty space and our bread
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: and Butter is this puberty class for It's really for girls,
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  Speaker 3: but we typically used to do it in person for
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: mothers and daughters, and as girls began to age up
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  Speaker 3: in our platform, we added more content and so we
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: did puberty, then we did the science of reproduction, and
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: then we did one on self confidence and media literacy,
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: and then healthy relationships and expanding out from those classes
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: are tips for some for girls, some for moms, but
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: they're on all the questions we get about acne, about
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  Speaker 3: mental health, about vaginal discharge, about bra sizes, I mean,
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: all the questions we get about am I normal? Is
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: it normal that my period only last two days? Is
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: normal that my period last ten days?
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  Speaker 4: You know?
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  Speaker 3: When should I get help? And so we started creating
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: these little we call them bite sized tips for parents
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: that kind of help them navigate girls' health issues and
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: sometimes might help prevent a doctor visit because they realize,
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: you know, what they can try first.
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  Speaker 4: And then tips for girls that are led by girls.
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  Speaker 4: So we have college.
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  Speaker 3: Students that do some of the tips for girls and
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: help them understand like what to do when you feel
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: left out by your friends, or how to handle a
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: friendship breakup. So we now cover topics from not just
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: puberty and reproductive health, but also friendships. Body image has
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: become our most recent one because those are the things
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: that moms keep asking us for, like can you help
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  Speaker 3: my daughter who's sitting alone at lunch? You know, how
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: do I handle this? Or what do I say when
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: my daughter says she hates the way she looks? So
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: we have all physicians or psychologists that create these tips,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: so parents can get access to all of the content
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: for free through we have a little chatbot called doctor Confidence,
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: which you can find right on our website and you
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: can put your question in and it'll go right right
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: to all of our content, show you videos or downloadables
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: that will help.
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  Speaker 2: Hopefully, I assume some of the stuff that it becomes,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: moms and daughters can watch it together, learn it together,
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  Speaker 2: and then open up a conversation which otherwise may have
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: been too awkward.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Well, and we also, you know, we start in third grade,
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  Speaker 3: so that's when we think it's a great time to
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: start talking about puberty. So at that age, of course,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: we want mothers and daughters to watch it together, or
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: fathers and daughters, I mean, any caregiver, just a trusted
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: adult to watch it with the kid. And then we
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: go all the way up through like ninth grade, tenth
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: grade with our content. And so as kids get into
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: middle school, they don't want to sit there and watch
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: something with their mom or dad, right they want to
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: do it by themselves. So we go by grade level,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: which is just a suggestion because you know, everybody knows
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: their kid best, like we're to start, but it's kind
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: of a springboard for These are what we think every
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: fifth grader should know based on developmental needs and what
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: we had seen clinically, and you can start there, and
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: then you can pick and choose. Maybe your kid needs
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: to look at some sixth and seventh grade stuff, or
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: maybe they need to go back and do some basic
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: puberty stuff or.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: At the third level. So that's how we do the
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: ages and stages.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you mentioned dads because one of the questions
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: I had sent you was a lot of this stuff
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: was about moms, which I think is great, but I
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: didn't know if you want to speak for a moment
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: just about dad's role in all of this education.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we we.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Focus on moms because moms are definitely their daughter's biggest
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: in place and sir when it comes to things like
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: body image and health practices, but dads are so critical.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: If they are if a girl has a dad in
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: her life that cares about her and is willing to
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: be that funny guy who just brings a matter of
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: fact perspective, can talk about some of these things without
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: the emotional I don't want to say baggage, but the
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: emotional relationship that women have to some of these topics.
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: It's so powerful for girls to have that.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: So dads are critical, and we do offer support for dads.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: It's just that most of our comments are towards moms.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: We have lots of dads that watch our topics, and
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: we have single dads that have come to our programs
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: with their daughters, and we love having them.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I also think the opposite is true of
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: dad because I hear a lot of girls through tears
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: talking about comments their dad has made, like when they're
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: starting cuberty and they start to gain weight and their
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: dads are like, little pudgy, aren't you, or they they'll
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: grab the skin on the top of their arm, just
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: different things like that, and that's so harmful for girls.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Those are moments that girls will remember their entire life.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: When we do some of our body image work, we
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: actually do it with moms too, and we'll ask them,
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: you know, women aren't born hating their bodies. It's a
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: learned behavior, and so we talk about when girls are young,
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: they're free, they're.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: Living in and through their body.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: They're not worried about people looking at them or what
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: they look like while they're doing things. But there's but
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: then we asked them when did that stop for you? Recently,
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: I had an eighty year old woman with doing one
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: of our classes and she said, my father told me
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: I was showing off when I was eight years old,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: and it changed everything for her. And so yes, dads
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: need support too. I mean we try to be dads,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: try to be funny. My husband is just you know,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: he's like the house comedian, right, but some times we
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: have to pull it in and like not make a
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: joke out of things or things that dudes.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: Might think is funny won't be funny if it's talking
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: about a woman's body.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: So dads do have a big influence, especially on how
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: girls feel about their body. They should encourage their daughters
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: to be strong, to get outside their comfort zone, to
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: have fun in their body, and just to go for
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: things and not comment on what they look like doing
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: any of it.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I remember years ago my wife and I were running
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: a mom daughter retreat. These are middle school girls and
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: their mom's like a three day retreat. It was actually
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: it was in Italy.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: But which is really cool.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: It was really fun. But I remember the uh we
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: were doing a section on body image, and I remember
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: the moms all saying that they were with their daughters
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: together and the moms were, you know, we were talking about,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: you know, being careful about what you said about yourself,
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: and the moms are all like, I would never say
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: anything bad about my body. I know my daughters are sensitive.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I would never do that. I know, I know that.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And then we said that's great, and we said, girls,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: how many of you have ever heard your mom talk
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: bad about your body everything? And the moms are shocked, Yeah,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: because they didn't realize some of those subtle quote unquote
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: subtle things that sometimes come out of their mouths too.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: It's unintentional that we pass down body dislike to our daughters,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: but we do. And I mean that's why after we
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: created a class on body image for girls, and when
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: the girls were going through the class, and these are
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: mostly middle school and high school girls, as they've been
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: going through the class, and the most common feedback we
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: get on that class is I wish my mom could
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: take this class and learn these things. And so with
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: that feedback, we actually did create a coaching series for
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: moms that they can go through kind of on their
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: own or with a group of friends and start developing
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: a practice that will help them with their own body
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: image and their own parenting journey with their daughter to
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: kind of boost or to avoid that body dissatisfaction being
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: passed down.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: We're talking today with Melissa Homes. She's a doctor, Melissa Home,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: she's an opgyn doctor, and she's one of the co
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: founders of a really important, invaluable app called girl Ology,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: which which I'll give you the links for at the end.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: But one of the things I've read an interesting book
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: last year, I think it was called Intimate Matters, and
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: the author was talking about the lack of education women
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: have about their bodies and sexuality and all that. It
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: was fascinating that kind of a history of all that.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: But one of the things that I've come to notice
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: in the girls who I work with, and because we
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: have really really deep intimate discussions at camps and retreats,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: is that we educate our kids, boys and girls about
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: all the sort of the negative aspects of sexuality. You know,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: it hurts, diseases, don't do it. That's pretty much our
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: education about sex. And I don't think they ever hear
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: much about the positive aspects of sexuality. And I'm just
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: wondering what you think about that.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, oh man, I could talk about this all day
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: long because I am so on board with exactly what
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: you're saying.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: We you know, historically we have looked at rates of.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: Team pregnancy and STIs and sexual violence as kind of
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: this barometer of how we are being successful.
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: Or not in our country, you know, with reproductive health.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: And for example, like in nineteen ninety one, which is
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: I was in residency then, but that was the peak
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: of the teen pregnancy epidemic in the United States, and
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: like our rates were twenty times higher than Canadians team
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: pregnancy rates, and so as a culture, we were identifying
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: like where we could improve things right, And so that's
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: what we've always followed academically and as a society. But
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: that is not at all like the whole picture of
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: healthy sexuality. So what I like to say, and I've
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: never had a parent disagree with me on this is
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: what you know, what we want for our kids is
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: really with respect to their emerging sexuality, is that we
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: want them to first of all, know kind of when
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: they're ready to be physically intimate with another person and
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: like think about that ahead of time. And then secondly,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: we want them when they do have sex, to have
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: sexual to engage in these behaviors that are understood, wanted, safe,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: and pleasurable. And I have never had anyone disagree as
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: a parent that that's what they want for their children.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: And so pleasurable is that piece that always gets left
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: out right. Sure, we want them to understand it, we
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: want them to want it, we want it to be safe,
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: but we forget.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: To talk about pleasure.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: So we've got to get away from our discomfort teaching
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: girls that.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: They should enjoy sex too.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, and honestly, when we teach all kids that
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: mutual pleasure makes sex better, then we're doing a better
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: job educating them, you know. I say, I think that
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: when boys are raised, they tend to get it a
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: little bit more like parents will joke around about their
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: teenage sons long showers, and boys always joke around about masturbation.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: And I've had girls ask me like, do girls masturbate?
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: I mean, that's not a topic that we really want
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: to just say, oh, hey, have you been masturbating lately?
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, we don't go there, But we forget to
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: talk to girls about their own pleasure and understanding their
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: body and what makes them feel good before they get
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: into a relationship with other people. And I think that
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: that's really important. And there's just so much history behind
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: I think why we do this. I mean, you know,
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: we can talk about the patriarchy, and we can talk
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: about generational you know, beliefs that women should be desirable
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: but desire less. So there, you know, there's a lot
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: of history that's brought us to this point. But I
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: think the way I like to approach this with the
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: girls that I work with is I love asking the question, like,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: what do you want sex to be like? Whether it's
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: your first time or the next time. You know, I'm
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: not here to judge, but what do you want it
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: to be like? And when you give them like the
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: space to think about that, number one, you tell them
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: that what they want matters, right, and then secondly, you're
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: letting them think about it ahead of time process it.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: They start to gain confidence and feel like they have
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: the right to make sure that it's happening the way
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: they want it to. And they're less likely to come
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: into my office and say it just happened. And I've
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: heard that so many times in my practice, you know, Yeah,
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: so that.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Quiet reflect I tell girls a lot that the tend
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: to make your decision about should I or shouldn't I,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: or do I want to or do not want to?
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Is not when you're in the backseat of a car.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: The time to decide is when you're in your comfort
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: of your room and you're sitting there thinking, journaling whatever,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: and saying what do I want? And what's more important
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: maybe about whether or not I have sex, is why
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: might I not want to have sex? And if I
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: do want to have it, why what's what's where am I?
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Where am I at? I also find too that I
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: was reading an article yesterday about how important it is
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: for kids to understand the science behind what happens in
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: their brains when they're doing video games or social media.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: There's that that's really important for them to understand that science.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: But I also think it's important from understand, like you're saying,
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: the science of their bodies and sexuality. I when I've
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: talked to girls at some retreats. Sometimes sometimes I even
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: talk about, you know, boys, puberty, what's going on for
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: boys and their bodies, And they're like sitting there, like,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: you know, there's so they so want to hear about
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: about not just their bodies, but also boys because they
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: don't hear that either.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's true.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: One of my favorite stories to our studies to quot
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: when I talk about the difference between teenage boys and
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: teenage girls is a functional MRI study, And just to
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: break it down, like, functional MRI looks at the brain
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: and how it's working and how it's wired.
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: And there was a study where they looked at adult.
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: Men and women and teenage boys and girls and they
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: put them in this functional MRI and showed them pictures
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: that would get them sexually aroused, so you know, whatever
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: those pictures are. And in the girls, they saw that
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: the brain was kind of shooting all over the place.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: There was a lot of different parts of the brain
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: lighting up, and so you can imagine the girls were
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: getting aroused and thinking about a lot of different things like, oh,
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: this feels good.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: Oh what if we get married, Oh what if I
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: have a baby? What am I gonna name my baby?
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of thoughts happening.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: When teenage boys were in the MRI skinner, only one
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: part of their brain lit up, and it was right
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: next to the same part of their brain that lights
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: up when they need to have a battel movement and
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: this is true. And so for teenage boys, it's really
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: they're not thinking, they're responding to a physical urge.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: And that's about it. Now.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: The good news is for adult men and women it
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: all balanced out, like after that brain finishes developing, then
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: everybody's thinking a little more rationally and you know, having
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: more mature thoughts. Mature I don't know, but I just
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: think that that's a fun thing for girls to understand,
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: is that there are brain differences in sex for boys
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: and girls before they're fully mature adults.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: And and that's powerful to have that knowledge.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about your new class has to
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: do with body image. We talked, we mentioned it, We
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: talke about a little bit before, but tell parents what
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: you're offering on your site.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so we one of the most common requests we
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: got from moms in our community was can you help
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: my daughter with her body image? And so we attempted
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: a class a few years ago and it was kind
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: of like what you see in magazines. Here's ten things
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: you can do to boost your body image, and it
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: just really didn't move the needle, and I was disappointed
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: in what it did. So then I called in a
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: psychologist who dove into the research and really started looking
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: at clinical models for treating body image disorder and or
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: body image problems and what had worked in her practice.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: She'd been in practice for twenty years, and she really
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: brought in this theory called embodiment, which is a big word,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: but the basis of it is, if you think about it,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: body image, whether you're talking about positive body image or
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: neutral body image.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: Keeps the focus on the image.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: And so what we're doing is we're teaching girls more
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: of something called embodiment, where they are learning to enjoy
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: living in and through their body rather than seeing their
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: body as an object to be gazed at, to be judged,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: to be criticized. And some of it has to do
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: with recognizing their emotions and how they play out in
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: their body. Some of it has to do with changing
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: their perception of what's beautiful, some of it has to
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: do with understanding that inner critic. And so we created
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: a on demand video class. It was led by these
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: college students who are both just bubbly and aspirational and fun,
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: probably like a lot of your camp counselors, and they
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: lead girls through this. You know, it's like a five
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: to ten minute video and then there's a workbook that
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: goes with it.
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: And so that's our Body Image.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Class for girls, and we're getting great feedback from it.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: The girls love it, they love.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: The journal, and they're having conversations again probably like a
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: lot of the deep conversations that happen at your camps.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: They're having conversations about what it's, you know, why they
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: feel the way they do. The boys that have the
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: lists of about what's who's hot and who's not, I mean,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: they're finding space to have these conversations and develop a
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: plan to not fall.
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: Into some of those pits.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: And so it's been really rewarding for us. It's one
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: of my favorite things we've ever created. I think our
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Puberty Class is gold, but I think this Body Image
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Class is something that's really actually going to move the
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: needle in body image improvement.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: So I was working this morning on a new podcast
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: which i'll do probably later today about labels, all the
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: different labels we have for kids and how they can
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: be so detrimental, and one of them was about being ugly. Yeah,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: because I hear so many girls with stories about why
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: they think they're ugly, and there's all kinds of stories
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: about why they're the first girl to go through puberty
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: and they're the tallest and first one to get curves
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: and acne, and they got made fun of. And you know,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: then they stood out our girls who are athletes, who
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: have big shoulders and big legs, and they look at
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: their little skinny friends. They think I'm fat and therefore
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I'm ugly and I can't fit into cool, you know,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: clothes like all my friends can. So there's use me.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: There's stories about why they veer off the path of
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: being care free in.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: Their bodies right right, And so as I mentioned before,
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: it's a learned behavior and it can be unlearned. And
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: so that's the beautiful thing I've I have I have
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: learned from our psychologists that's been working with us, is like,
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: how do you unlearn those negative thoughts and that voice
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: in your head? How do you get control of that?
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: And there's some really simple steps. So basically what we've
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: built is like some therapy without people having to go
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: to therapy, because I don't think you have to go
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: to therapy to learn some of these skills, you know.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so we've been talking to doctor Melissa Holmes,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: who is at OBG Y n who is a co
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: founder of a website app called Grology. So tell us
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: how parents can find you and find that all these
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: resources that you offer.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the easiest way is to go to
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: our website, which is groology dot com. You can find
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: doctor Confidence, our chatbot there that can get you to
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: any of our content. And then also we are on
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: our app is free to download on Google Play and
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: the Apple Store and on Instagram we're at Girlology.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: And so there's there's some of the information is free.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: There's some classes and things that are for you. There's
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: also some things that that people may pay for because
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: they're extra.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: Yes, there are, and we will if in your show notes,
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: we can give you a discount code that will get
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: people a discount for an annual membership, which gives full
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: access to everything we have on our platform.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Nice. Well, thank you so much, not only for being
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: on raising Daughters. I appreciate you giving up your time,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: but also because of all this work that you've done.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: There's obviously a need and you saw it and you
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: and you're you're feeling it and you are helping to
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: fill it. It's hard to fill everything, but so thank
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: you so much for well Thank you so much for
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: doing that. I think that's such a huge need for
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: girls to be educated about all these things and their moms.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: And I think that the work that you're doing with
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: girls in camps and everything else is just amazing, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: this podcast obviously is reaching a lot of people who
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: are benefiting from it. So I appreciate the work that
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: you're doing. And I really appreciate having a man in
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: this space, because again, I do think that girls need
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: good male role models as well as women in their lives.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: By the way, as always, i'll have the links to
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Girlology and getting a hold of Melissa in my show notes,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: so make sure you just go to the website for that.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on raising Daughters. I appreciate,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: appreciate your time.
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Well, that was great. I hope you all enjoyed that conversation.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: There's so much great information on that website Girlology. I
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: would encourage all of you to go look at that
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: so you get some idea information about having those conversations
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: with your daughters about puberty and the changes in their
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: bodies and body image and sexuality and all those sorts
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: of things. I think sometimes feel like tough conversations that
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: we don't know where to start, or we feel awkward,
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: or we didn't get that information either growing up, so
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: I think it makes it even harder. So you can
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: learn together with your daughters, which would be I think fun.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I will have that links to Girlology on my show
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: notes and maybe I did it podcasts not that long
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: ago and I talked to I can't remember the name
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: of the woman I talked to who were talking about
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: girls and their moms and having conversations, so I'll put
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: that link in there as well. I will be back
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: here again next week with the new podcast. If you
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: have ideas for my future podcasts, the things you want
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: me to talk about or or learn about, just send
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: your ideas to ann A n n E at d
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: R Tim Jordan and I'll get that and hopefully meet
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: your needs. Thanks so much every week for passing these on,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for dropping by, and I'll see you
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: again next week.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Raising Daughters.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Hopefully you've learned something useful about girls and young women
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: and how to help them navigate the pressures, challenges, and
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: opportunities of modern life. If you want to become a
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: more effective parent, keep listening to the show at doctor
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: tim Jordan dot com and let the conversations shape you.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Build that one of a kind connection with your daughters
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: in the most profound and meaningful ways possible, shaping them
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: into strong, confident women of the future. That's all for now.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: See you next week for another episode of Raising Daughters.