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Robert Ingraham: Making a Comedy Movie about Growing up Evangelical · The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: They don't the guys, they don't them.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Today we've got Roberts, and Roberts is a filmmaker who
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: is I'm trying to has has the movie actually come
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: out yet? No, it's it hasn't come out yet, right,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: it has come out, Yeah, it's available, it is out. Okay, great, Well,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: you recently made a film called Premarital, which is it's
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: absolutely hilarious. And if you grew up any like, if
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: you grew up especially in like the nineties early two
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: thousands in evangelicalism, more than likely you absolutely would resonate
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: with almost any like moment in the movie, especially a
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: lot of the funny the funny bits. So well, obviously
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: we want to talk all about the movie. I just
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: I think it's so hilarious. But before we dive into
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: the movie, how you doing today?
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Robert doing great? Thanks so much for having me, and
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: thanks for checking out on the film. I'm really glad
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: you enjoyed it.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great. So yeah, it was our mutual buddy,
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: William Matthews who got us connected. And so get just curious, like,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: how do you know Matthew or William William?
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: I met William about ten years ago when I was
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: in like my peak deconstruction phase and William was on
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: the Liturgist podcast. Yeah, and so I was like really
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: into the Liturgis podcast and we were both living in
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: the same neighborhood at the time, and so I met
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: him through the Gungers and the rest is history. We
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: just we've always bonded over diving deep on that, pulling
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: apart the strange threads of Christian culture and American nationalism
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: and evangelicalism, and trying to pull apart where we fit
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: into it and what we make of it, and how
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: we move forward with the pieces of it that we
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: want to carry forward and yeah, get rid of the
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: rest of it. It's an ongoing thing that ten years
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: later we still each other to be like, Yo, I
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: just I'm I'm freaking out about this thing that I
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: need to talk to you about it. How do we
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: how do we pull this apart?
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Right right? Love that? Well, it sounds like the film
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: is very deeply personal to you. Again, before we dive
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: into the film stuff, I'd love to hear just kind
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: of like your own backstory. Yeah, Yeah, what's what's the
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: origin of Robert?
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I grew up in the Midwest, a mix
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: of Wisconsin and Michigan, and it's very much a culture
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: like the one in Premarital. Premarital takes place in kind
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: of the small town church. My dad wasn't a pastor,
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: but it's it's a very similar large family vibe. You know,
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: I have five siblings. I'm the middle child, so just
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: a whole range of personalities. We were all raised in
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: the Evangelical Church and it was very you know, structured,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: very We were homeschooled, so it was a particularly intense
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: form of focus on those things. And it was really
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: interesting to go from that to then to having all
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: six of us siblings now be adults and have there
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: be a complete range of every belief system, every political stance,
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: Like the six siblings represent basically as far of a
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: wide spectrum as you could get. They represent the whole picture.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: Which is really wild that these six people who grew
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: up in the exact same circumstances came out with six
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: completely different personality types, six completely different political stances, completely
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: different religious beliefs. And so every time I saw a
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: film that was about anything like that, a religious family,
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: a pastor, or anything like that, it never really dealt
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: with that. What feels like to me an irreconcilable or
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: irresolvable tension, that there are differences in families in America
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: right now, and I guess in the world, but my
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: experience is the American one that you can't fix it,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: you can't make it all just resolve and have the
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: tension go away. We have to figure out how to
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: live with these differences somehow and to make And I
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: was interested in seeing that dramatized in someone and I
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: didn't feel like I had seen that dramatized in a
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: way that was satisfying to me. So that's kind of
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: the origin story of this project for sure.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: I love that. I mean, it's clearly a film that
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: was made by somebody who was an insider to the
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: world that you're obviously making it about. And especially when
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: it comes to like religion or even the religious experience
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: that you see a lot in a lot of other films,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: they aren't done with the kind of nuance or I
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: for accuracy that you know, like like there's a lot
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: of maybe shows or movies you've even watched where you
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: like you see like, Okay, there's a religious thing happening,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: a religious scene happening in front of us, and a
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: lot of times it's just like inaccurate or like that's
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: just like not how it actually is, like if you
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: actually are an insider to that particular religious experience. And
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: so so one of the things I loved about the
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: movie was how accurate it felt of yeah, that's exactly
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: what it was like in small town like evangelicalism in
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: the Midwest. As somebody who grew up in the small
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: town evangelicalism in the Midwest, I'm like, yeah, that's it,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: like that was the thing. That's like you nailed the
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: exact experience. And so it feels a little exposing in
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: that way, but I love like the details you have
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: in the film that really highlight like clearly you're an insider,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: like you know what this.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Was like, Oh yeah, there are specific, specific references that
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: if you come from that world. I've heard I don't
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: usually use this phrase, but a number of people have
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: used it when talking about the film, which is triggers,
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: like this is a triggering film. This you need a
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: trigger warning, Like a lot of people talk about certain
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: scenes through the lens of trigger warnings. And that was
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: fascinating to me to come out of the film and realize, like, oh,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: a lot of people are triggered by this. To me,
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: it was just you know, me wrestling with my own
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: feelings and funny things about this culture. And to me
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: it was mostly a lighthearted film that also dealt with
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: a lot of serious things kind of underneath the surface.
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: But a lot of people responded to it really strongly,
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: and there have been people, you know, brought to tears
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: by it, and I people's feelings about of course, it
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: makes sense when you think about it. The people's feelings
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: about these things are so deeply tied to their very identity,
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: into their entire belief system of what reality is. So
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: of course, if you dive deep into the the threat
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: the threads that hold that together, you're going to touch
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: the nerves. So it's been really fascinating.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. I definitely want to like dive into
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of those themes because one of the things
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I noticed pretty quickly on in the film, but as
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: I was watching it, I realized like there are multiple
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: storylines with lots of different themes happening within the movie itself.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Obviously there's kind of the main thread of the main storyline,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I'd love to and obviously I want to
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: talk about that kind of main thread of the of
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: the movie, but before we diving in that, I'm really curious, Like,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: you know, obviously, again, like your personal experience of evangelicalism
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: obviously was a large influence for probably you know, in
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: spite to make this film. But what is it about
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: the specific storyline that made you want to make a
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: film about this couple where there's like this woman who
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: grows grows up in evangelicalism, and then she starts to
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: date this person who didn't and doesn't believe any of
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: those things. So, yeah, what was it that made you
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: really inspire to do that particular kind of storyline.
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: I was inspired to do that because I felt like
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: when I write, I feel like I'm just wrestling with
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: questions that I don't know how to answer for myself.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: And so I felt like I was at a place
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: in my life with my my personal faith deconstruction and
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: all the things that I was going through in my
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: twenties where I didn't really know how to present myself
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: as I really was to the people who I grew
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: up with, mainly my family and friends and you know,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: influential people in my life who if I told them
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: what I really think about the stuff that they raised
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: me to believe. It would create a relational impasse. It
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: would be a bomb going off in a relationship. And
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: I don't I love those people and I don't want
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: to blow up our relationship. And yet the person I
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: am now feels incompatible with that world. So how do
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: I reconcile that tension? It's really like this question of tension,
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: of relational tension that led me to explore it through
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: through writing about these characters. So, yeah, does that make
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: sense that I was trying to explore the tension in
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: my own life and my own relationships of how do
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: I go on loving these people who I love? And
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: I refuse to I refuse to cut off our relationship,
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: but I also recognize that there are things about our
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: beliefs of reality that are just incompatible, and so where
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: do we go from there?
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Right? Right? In some ways then it seems like, you know,
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: I would imagine with knowing your background and I forget,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: what's the woman the main character woman, I'm forgetting her
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: name in the movie, Sophie. Yeah, Sophie. So in a
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: lot of ways I would imagine you probably like resonate
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: a lot with Sophie, and I think a lot of us,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: probably you know, those of us who grew up in evangelicalism,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: resonate with so. But like the way you're describing this,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: like maybe there's maybe there's some resonance with even her
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: fiance of this, like you know, person who's like an
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: atheist and even like a not just an atheist, but
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: a skeptic, like he kind of knows the reasons why
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: he doesn't believe, and so maybe there's like moments where
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: you probably even resonate with his experience as well.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: Yes, and I would I would say this might sound silly,
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: but there are moments where I even resonate with Pastor
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: Stewart and it's kind of, oh, there are arguments, the
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: argument between this pastor who's trying to convert this young
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: man and this young atheist who's saying absolutely not. It's
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: kind of just two sides of my brain talking to
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: each other, if that makes any sense. So, yes, I
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: there are times where I resonate with them both, and
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: I have these arguments with myself. And I was having
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: these arguments especially in my twenties, as I was kind
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: of forming my own adult identity of where I was
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: going to stand on all this stuff. But then yes,
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: also there's the part of me relationally that very much
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: relates to Sophie in that she just wants everyone to
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: get along and is willing to hide her true feelings
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: if it'll make everyone just be okay for a minute.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of along those lines. There are a number
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: of themes that I picked up on that I wanted
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: to talk about. One is exactly a Sophie's sort of
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: experience that I think resonates so much with a lot
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: of ex evangelical people. In particular, is this sense of
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe let me back up for a second.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of ex evangelical people
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: that certainly have legitimate trauma within their family, and maybe
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: in some ways or in some cases, it's totally okay
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: and maybe even beneficial to maybe cut off some of
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: those familiar relationships. But I do think there are a
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: lot of us where we even though we might disagree
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: strongly with our family of origin, we also still deeply
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: love them and know that they deeply love us. And
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: I would imagine that's maybe the majority of X evangelical
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: people like myself, And so how to navigate that tension
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: of different belief but still loving each other is a
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: huge core theme that you especially see play out in
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Sophie's sort of internal world. Yeah, that was a theme
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: that came up right away. And obviously we've already been
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: touching on that a little bit, but clearly that was
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: something that you wanted to like really emphasize. It might
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: even be kind of the I mean, you could even
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: say maybe it's the main plot point of the movie.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, obviously that comes that emerges immediately in the movie.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: I would imagine that was something that you were wanting
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: to make sure you get across.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, that is. I mean, like you said, there
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: are people for whom there are people I don't want
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: to speak for where if there is particular kinds of
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: trauma in your relationship with your family, sometimes it is
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: the right path for you, whether it's just for now
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: or permanently, to just go your own way. And I
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: never want to tell anyone you have to do it
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: my way. But for me personally, it felt like the
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: most honest way through was to try to find a
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: path forward for the relationship to exist, but to exist
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: in a new format that was more honest and yet
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: at the same time, it's not appropriate to every time
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: you see your parents to say, you know, I don't
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: believe that, blankety blank. And it's like you don't need
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: to pull apart every piece of theological difference every time
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: you see each other. But at the same time, there
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: are certain things that you can't just sweep under the rug.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: To use a line from the.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Movie, Yeah, yeah, And it does seem like the plot
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: point of them being engaged going to get married that
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: like intensifies that those differences because then it's like you're
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: bringing another for something. And maybe it wasn't even just
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: because she's bringing in another person into the family, but
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: there was something about the fact that they were getting
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: married that like, really I think intensifies well. And obviously
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: it's just because you know, obviously the person that she's
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: bringing in is you know, totally different in a lot
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: of ways, But it does seem to intensify that that
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: difference that she's already probably experienced with her family even
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: before she may have been and you know, dating and
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: embedding relationship with uh, with her fiance.
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, marriage is a whole can of worms
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: that I guess let's go there and now let's let's
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: talk marriage, and let's talk purity culture, because yeah, when
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: Daddy's little girl is getting married, it brings up all
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: that stuff about you know, the church is kind of
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: i'll say messed up relationship with sexuality, at least the
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: one I had, the version of it that I grew
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: up in. So it brings up that entire rumbling beneath
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: the surface of all that tension, all the the stuff
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: the church doesn't want to deal with about sex. And
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: then you have daddy's little girl not only getting married,
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: which already brings out all that stuff that he's that
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: she's getting married to an atheist, which is unthinkable. And
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: so I don't know, was there a question in there
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: should we just dive into No.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I was just curious, like, yeah, just curious about yeah,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: the fact that, yeah, that was just that seemed to
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: be like such a central theme, central point of you
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: trying to that you were trying to get across in
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: the movie. Yeah, it just emerged to me right away
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: like that that was going to be a main kind
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: of contention point, like it might be the you know,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: I remember in like high school or middle school learning
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: about like plot and everything, and it seems like that
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: was the conflict point right there. That's like, that's where,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: that's where the conflict gets introduced, and that's where, all right,
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: we're going to move towards that, towards the resolve, that
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: being the main through line.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think there. I wonder what your perspective
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: on this is as someone who grew up in this
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: culture and understands it intimately. I feel like there's a
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: generational difference. I don't know if it's just me or
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: if it is culture wide, but I feel like there's
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: a generational difference between you know, let's call it, call
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: it the Boomer generation and the millennial to whatever gen z,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: which is on the one side, you have Stuart, and
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: I don't want to spoil the movie too much, but
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: let's say, let's just say that Stuart's marriage is the
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: Boomer Christian idea of what marriage should be, which is
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: all about appearances. We stay together and we are committed,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: and we don't get divorced because that is the right
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: thing to do. We are following the rules and that
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: is right and we will not stray from that path.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: And then on the other hand, you have Sophie, who's
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: from the younger generation who says, I watch that growing up,
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: and I don't want that, even if it means I'm
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: gonna break the quote unquote rules, I know I can't
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: live with that because that isn't working. And so even
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: if it means I get married to someone who is
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: not my spiritual equal, I would rather get I'd rather
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: get married to someone who doesn't share my exact beliefs
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: and have the relationship work, then get married to someone
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: who has all the boxes checked. But we're miserable.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No, do you feel any generational difference on how
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: we look at marriage?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I definitely see that like with yeah,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: definitely older, older folks. I'm not gonna name names, but yeah,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: I definitely like have seen that with older versus even
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: like deeply evangelical Christians like our age, you know, like
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: millennial Christians that I think there's even like probably more
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: of an openness for divorce than even among deeply concerned
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: you know, the kind of Christians that Stewart you know,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: ends up being. But because of the generation generational gap
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: or divide or difference, yeah, I think even like a
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: lot of people our age are more than willing to
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: be divorced because they don't want to be stuck in
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: that kind of marriage. And yeah, it's interesting because you know,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: at least the evangelical world I grew up in, like
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: obviously there was a huge like, you know, get married
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: to like know for sure that that's going to be
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: the right person, Like you only want to get married
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: to the right person because this is going to be forever.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: But there was it seems like maybe even starting like
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: gen X, there was this real huge industry that seemed
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: to start of like marriage counseling, right, Like it seemed
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: like the evangelical world recognized, well, just because you get
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: married doesn't mean that that marriage is going to be
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: perfect and you actually have to really work on that.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: And I think just by even acknowledging that recognize the
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: fact that maybe some people just shouldn't be married. And
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: so it does kind of seem like that kind of
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: opened up this possibility, especially I think again it started
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: I think gen X, but especially by the time millennials
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: start getting married, and certainly even now with gen Z
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: getting married, even in that evangelic deeply evangelical world, I
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: think there is this awareness that yes, some people maybe
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: shouldn't just be married together, because there's this sense of
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: marriage is something you have to work for. It's not
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: something where you just sign the papers and now all
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: of a sudden you're married and it's going to be perfect.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, I do think that there was this
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: kind of sense of marriage, was this like appearance for
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of boomers and even older and you just, yeah,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: you don't really get a sense of that with younger generations,
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: even those that are deeply evangelical.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree, that's a good way of putting it.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: That it's not just a different stance on what marriage is.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: It's a different stance on the play the place of
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: marriage your life as something that is necessary or not.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: It's not. We no longer see it as a box
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: that you have to tick in order to have a
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: complete life. We see it as something maybe it's for
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: you and maybe it's not. But if it's not, don't
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: don't go.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: There, right right, right, Yeah, yeah, totally. One other theme
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: that came up right away is so when when Stuart
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: pastor Stewart, so pastor Stuart's you know, this deeply conservative,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: you know, older man who's very deeply concerned by her
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: his daughter's fiance, which I'm forgetting. I'm sorry, I'm so
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: bad with names when it comes to movies. What was
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: her fianceete name?
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Allan?
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Allan Allan so so Alan and Stuart like they just
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: clearly right away almost like have these philosophical and scientific debates, right,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And if again, if you grew up in the evangelical world,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: you you've heard all of these like talking points of
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: like why Christianity is true that that Stuart talks about,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: and and then you know, especially if you grew up
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: in that evangelical world, then you were in interested in
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: those debates, then you you also recognize the talking points
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: that Alan even mentions, right. And one thing that I
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: found interesting. I don't know if this was intentional or not,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: but like there the way I think about both, like, okay,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: so pastor to war. He's kind of this like in
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: some ways even borderline fundamentalist christian right, Like he sort
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: of knows like his his apologetics and he knows how
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: to debate those apologetics. And and Alan is sort of
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: doing these talking points from the opposite perspective that the skeptics,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: the skeptics perspective, you know, he kind of sounds like
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: in some cases like kind of a sort of Richard
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Dawkins type, right, that's debating this uh Christian apologist and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: and so it's it's interesting. There's almost what it feels like,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: two fundamentalisms that are debating each other. And obviously again
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: there's all these other kind of complexities to it, because
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: it's like, you know, this is gonna be a future
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: you know, father brother or father and son in law.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: But I found that interesting, Like it what you know,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: it'd be different if it was like an atheist that
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: sort of was like just don't really care, but like
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: seems like Alan really knew his stuff, Like he cares
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: about why he doesn't believe in God and why he
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: doesn't believe in Christianity, and so I'm just curious about that.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: Like it really seems to like really put these two
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: intention rather than if you would have had some maybe
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: more like run of the mill, the average maybe atheist
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: that just sort of was like I just like don't believe,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: and that's kind of it, like I don't know why
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I don't believe, but it seems like he really knows why.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that absolutely was intentional in the writing process that
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: I wanted. I didn't want Alan to be who we
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: look at and say, well, he's obviously right, and Stuart
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: to be who we look at and say, well, he's
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: obviously wrong. I wanted there to be some sense of
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: these are two very flawed people who are who their
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: egos are clashing, because that's what I see when I
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: look at the world. I look at these debates happening
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: between conservative and progressive, and I don't really I don't
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: really see the real issues getting debated. I see two
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: people who need to be right. So it's it can
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: be very frustrating. Did you watch I don't know if
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: this was if you were into this at the time,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: but there was a debate between ken Ham and Bill.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Nye in the Yes that was like ten years ago.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: Debate. Yeah, it was. I was so frustrated watching that
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: debate because if if Bill ny had been able to
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: just broaden his definition by like ten percent, if he
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: had just been willing to say it is possible to
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: believe in evolution and believe in God, which I believe
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: is true. I believe you can believe in evolution and
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: believe in God. If he had just been willing to
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: broaden the doorway that much, there would I believe there
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: would have been a torrent of literally possibly millions of
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Christians who were eager to broaden their own horizons because
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: they're in a system that isn't working for them. They
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: feel like they're dumbing themselves down to make it work,
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: and they want to broaden the horizons. And all they
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: need is an invitation. All they need is someone to say, yes,
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: you can, you can hold that tension for yourself. There
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: is a respectable way through if you want to do that.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: I was watching that and just so wanting him to
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: say that, and I was so frustrated that he didn't
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: say that. So I reuse that as an example of
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: the ways in which both quote unquote sides can get
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: stuck in their rigid definitions and perspectives. And they're puritanism basically,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: they're purity of ideals. The purity in this sense, not
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: in the sexual meaning, but in the sense of just
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: if you don't see it exactly my way, you're out.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: And that is a fault for both sides, and so yes,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: I really wanted there to be a sense of ego
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: in both cases, both with Alan and with Stuart, and
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: the ways in which ego gets in the way of
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: them actually delivering the heart of the message that they
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: want to deliver, which is what they actually believe at
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: the end of the day. But there's that human component
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: that makes it more about yourself.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that has to like, yeah, you have to find
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: that human component. Yeah, it does seem like I mean,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: for obviously, for Stuart, he's like this sort of Christian fundamentalist,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: or he's maybe represented in the movie that way, and
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Alan may be seen as this like atheist fundamentalist. And
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: even though they have like whatever arguments and talking points
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: that they're gonna make for for their side, the fundamentalism
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: part for each of them is it's just an ego.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: And I think what this movie does expose is whether
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: you're an atheist or whether you're a Christian, maybe like
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: if we if we fall trapped to any sort of fundamentalism,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: whether it's Christian fundamentalism, fundamentalism, or like an atheist fundamentalism.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Either way, it's a trap that is bound by ego.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Like fundamentalism by sort of its nature is an egotistic
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: stance and how you understand the world again, whether that's
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: a Christian understanding in the world or an atheistic one.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, with you he found something that both sides
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: can agree on. We both dislike fundamentalism.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, totally. Yeah, Yeah, that just seemed to
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: be like such an interesting kind of point that you know,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: it certainly runs through the whole movie. I don't know
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: if it's maybe the more like kind of dominant theme,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: but it does. It definitely does seem like a core
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: theme throughout the movie that you just see that sort
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: of tension of fundamental two different fundamentalisms clashing at one
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: another and then eventually sort of reconciling and recognizing, oh,
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: that's another human that I need to understand and love
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: and care for. And you eventually see that obviously, no
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: not to not to spoil the movie, but you eventually
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: kind of see that happening.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the the real the magic of just human empathy
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: kind of wins out at the end of the day,
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: not necessarily that it solves all the problems, but that
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: that is always the answer to ego is just who's
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: the who's the human actually sitting in front of you
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: and how do you relate to them on a person
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: to person level when you set aside whatever your your
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: idea of what you think this is supposed to look
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: like when you just meet that person here and now
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: in this room, what do they need and what do
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: you need to move forward together?
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like another area where you see Pastor
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Stewart grow is this letting go of this appearance of
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: the ideal Christian family that also seems to be like
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: a central theme throughout the movie. What I mean by
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: that is, you know, in the kind of Christian world
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: that we grew up in, right Like, there's kind of
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: this idealized Christian family of like the two point five
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: maybe three kids, maybe more than that. You know, he said,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: you've got you know, got six six of you all.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: So you've got the multiple kids, you've got the husband
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: and wife, you've got the white picket fence, and there's
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: sort of this like perfect appearance that you're the the
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: the Christian is meant to idealize. And what's interesting is
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: throughout this movie, it's not even just Sophie being this
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: sort of like potentially you know, black sheep of the family.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: You recognize you learn really quickly that every member of
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: the family is kind of a black sheep of the
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: family that is sort of spoiling the quote unquote perfect
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Christian appearance. And so yeah, I'd love to like for
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: you to talk a little bit more about that, because
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: that just seemed to be very clear throughout the movie too,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: that Stuart is sort of like he like the perfect
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: Christian appearance that I think he had maybe hoped for
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: his family to have, it all kind of unravels right
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: before his eyes, and you start to really quickly realize
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: not only in his own marriage, but with all the
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: other kids. For the most part, there's this unraveling of
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: that perfect Christian appearance.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a little anecdote that I like to bring up.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: Stuart is not necessarily based on my dad, but there
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: are pieces of my dad in there. One memory of
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: my dad is that we were having friends over I
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: was a kid, I was probably ten years old or something,
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: and he made me and my brother comb the tassels
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: on our rugs, and we always give him gupher that.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: We're always like, remember the time you made us comb
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: the tassels, Like it's just this perfect image of you
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: care so much what other people think of you that
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: we have to comb the tassels on the rug which
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: we had never done before. We didn't care about our
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: rugs were they had messed up.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Tassels, Like it sounds like some sort of like biblical metaphor,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: like something you would see like yet Jesus saying like,
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: you know, don't don't worry about the combine of the
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: tassels of your rug. Like I could totally see like
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: Jesus using as metaphor exactly.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's this, it's just this almost hilarious image and
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: that it's so so ridiculous. But you know, the tassels,
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: we had never cared about them. We just stomp on
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: them every day and they're tangled mess and no one
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: ever gave a thought. And then these friends are coming
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: over that we want to impress, and suddenly it's like, wow,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: we got to comb them perfectly. So we use that.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: We laugh about it now. But that's kind of an
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: image that evokes what we're talking about, and it evokes
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: that line from the movie that I've brought up before,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: which is sweeping things under the rug. Here's another rug metaphor.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: I guess I like rugs. That line kind of sums
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: up the theme that you're talking about, which is that
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: in order to have that perfect image, you have to
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: be deleting some things because humans aren't perfect. So if
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: you see a family that seems perfect, that means they're
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: omitting something from the picture, probably forcibly and probably uncomfortably
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: for the people who are being omitted or erased or whatever.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: So you have, for instance, here's a classic example that
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: we continue to see playing out both in our lives
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: and in the movie, which is your son is gay,
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: and your beliefs say, I'm not allowed to accept that,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: and yet you love your son more than you can
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: put into words. So where do you go from there?
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: And I have friends in my life who, you know,
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: their dad just doesn't talk to them anymore, and that
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: seems unthinkable because I know that the dad loves them
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: like more than you can imagine, and yet there's this
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: pain of this ideal that they hold on to that
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: it's well, what would people think? And that's against my beliefs.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: And I don't pretend to be able to resolve for people.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: I just think it's interesting to explore that tension in
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: the way that it seems at times like it just
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: can't be resolved. And so yeah, how again, how do
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: you move forward together? If at all? And so that's
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: here we have all these examples of things where it's
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: like you have the perfect image of the family. You're
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: perfect Christian family, and you're so proud of it. And
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: if it if it looks that perfect, chances are something
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: is being swept under the rug. So what's under the rug?
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: That's kind of a question that this movie is asking.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. I mean we see all these like
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: famous conservative Christian influencers and their families, and they, you know,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: make it seem like they've got this perfect family and
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: they're raising their kids up to be these perfect little Christians.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: They're you know, they're gonna be raised up in this
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: beautiful purity and then they're gonna go off and get
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: married and have their two point five kids, and like
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: there's just this illusion that they try to present, and
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: it's like we all, like we all who are actually
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: in real families know that that's not the way this happens. Like,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: like you mentioned before, with like your own family, like
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: you probably grew up with this, like you all like
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: I'm sure your parents were trying to raise you up
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: in this very Christian way, in the way that Pastor
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Stewart does in the movie. And yet even you mentioned before,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: like your own family ends up a ton of kids
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: end up going lots of different like some may still
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: remain Christian, some don't, and like that's just the nature
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: of every family is that there are going to it's
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: never going to be perfect, and you're all the sort
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: of illusion that you have of like what the ideal
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Christian family is going to end up being. It often
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: doesn't happen that way. You're going to have kids that
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: are going to maybe reject what you believe or you know,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: whatever it might be right like, And so when I
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: noticed that theme in the movie, my mind immediately went to,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: like all of these conservative Christian influencers that are really
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: trying to make it seem like they've got this perfect
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: ideal family and that you know, we just need to
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: have more and more kids so that we can like
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: counteract like the the you know woke or you know,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: liberal values of the West or whatever. And it's like, well,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: guess what, Like sometimes you raise kids to be Christian
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: and guess what, they still end up being this sort
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: of low you know, woke lib or whatever like that
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: happens still because no family's perfect and you can't control
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: your kid and so anyway, that's that's like what came
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: to my mind right when I when I noticed that
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: that theme in the.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: Movie, yeah you kind of again, you get polarization. It
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: always seems like, especially on the Internet, it just drives
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: people to two ends of a spectrum. On the one hand,
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: you have people who say it's beautiful, it's great, get married,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: like just you know, have this perfect life and it
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: can be yours. And then on the other hand, you
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: have people who identify only with their trauma, and they
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: build their entire brand and their identity around like how
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: difficult and how bad it all is and how you know.
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: And that's again, I made this movie about the things
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: that are messed up, so I don't I don't pretend
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: that those things don't exist, but I hesitate to build
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: my entire identity or my entire life around the things
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: that don't work, because then you then you risk making
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: that your entire, your entire being that it's just you're
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: built around negativity. You're defining yourself in opposition to things,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: rather than defining what you're for. So, yeah, I want
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: to believe that those things are worth fighting for, things
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: like family and marriage and whatever, but that it has
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: to be done with a really healthy dose of accepting
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: what is imperfect and accepting what things that tensions that
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: can't be resolved, that human power can't resolve. And if
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: you're you know, if you're willing to introduce some religious
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: language into it, things that require grace, things that are
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: bigger than you, and you have to you have to
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: admit your imperfection in order to receive the grace that
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: makes it work.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: And I think you really see Sophie struggling with that,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: or at least maybe processing that very carefully. You know,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I don't see Sophie being somebody who, even though it
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: does seem like she largely rejects the way she grew up.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: She she seems to be the kind of person who's
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: processed it in a way where she she's taking the
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: best of how she grew up while rejecting the worst
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: of it. And and so you see that kind of
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: happen even in live time for her, uh, where yeah,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: she's not trying to identify in all the worst things,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: all in all the worst ways that she grew up,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: because she's also I think carefully processing or recognizing these
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: are some of the best things about the way I
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: was raised. And I want to I want to keep that.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: I think there is even that moment where so she's
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: sitting down with Alan and then and then her parents,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: and they're even talking about like, you know, what what
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: would it mean to like raise children, like what sort
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: of values? And like she even like pensions, like, well,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: I think there's some foundational values that I want to have.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And and even though I would imagine those values might
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: not be exactly the kind of values that she was
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: raised on, there does seem to be a sense of
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: she wants to take the best of what she grew
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: up on and passed that down even to potentially her kids.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it does seem like she's very careful about
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: not trying to identify with the worst that she grew
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: up in but still rejecting it, but not identifying with it,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: and then also taking what was the best part of it.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's another question that that movie that the movie
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: kind of asks, it explores this idea of is that
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: even possible? Can you do the I guess some people
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: call it like cafeteria. There are cafeteria Catholics. They like
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: pick and choose the things they want to keep believing,
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: or like the cafeteria approach to religion where you pick
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: and choose you say, like I'll take that, I won't
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: take that. And the movie Sophie's character is kind of
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: an example of that, and it's a question of does
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: that work in real life? Can you cobble together your
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: own version of faith and have it work in it
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: both in a secular context and in the context of
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: the people who still are more fundamentalist. So yeah, she's
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: that again is different parts of my own brain having
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: conversations with itself where it's like, if I had kids,
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: would I want to raise them with any specific religious foundation,
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: and if so, to what extent? And what would I
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: tell them about the nature of reality? All these questions
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: that I'm sure are much more intense for actual parents.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: Are you a parent? I mean, I'm I ask myself
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: these questions and it's it makes my head spend now.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: So being an actual parent who's trying to figure out
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: what to teach their kids about this stuff must be
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: a wild.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. What are maybe some other themes
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: you know, I mentioned a few that I've noticed throughout
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: the movie. What are some maybe other themes that you
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: can think of that you feel like we're very meaningful
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: for you to maybe try to get across in the movie.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: Let me think about that for a second, trying to
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: think of one that doesn't spoil too much, because there's
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: a lot that happens in the last act that's like, oh,
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: that's meaty, but I don't want to give it all away.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: I guess another one I could touch on is is
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: gender roles. There's a particular subplot that is it. It's
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: small blink and you'll miss it, but it's one that
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: I really like, which is between the character Jared and May.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: May is the Korean American woman who's married to one
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: of the sons, and the son is kind of this classic,
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: you know, masculine idea of he likes to hang out
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: with his kids and shoot guns and he's having a blast,
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: but he's also following this path that has been set
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: out for him of you are supposed to be the provider,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: you are supposed to be the one who goes. And
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: what he's doing is he's in seminary, so he's following
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: in his father's footsteps. He's going to be a pastor
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: and his wife, May is the caregiver, and there's this
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: unspoken tension between them of she is so clearly so
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: much more intellectually well equipped for the work that he
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: is doing, and she is so much more interested in it,
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: whereas he would so much be rather be taking care
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: of the kids. He loves the kids, He just wants
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: to hang out with the kids, but he feels this
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: burden of like, well, I'm the one who's supposed to
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: be doing this. So you have this dynamic between them
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: where he's actually in reality taking care of the kids,
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: and she is in reality writing his papers for him,
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: for his theological for his seminary. And that's kind of
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: something else that is floating in the background for me thematically,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: is like it's in the church you have these biblical
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: gender roles, and then in reality there are people who
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: would be so happy if they could just flip them exactly.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: And so it's a question of like do you allow that.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Can you get through the swallowing your pride or whatever
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: it is that allows you to cross that line and say, Okay,
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: I'm actually gonna do something different than what I think
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: I was supposed to do or what I was raised
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: to do in terms of my beliefs or culture or whatever,
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: and just do what actually works for us and see
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: if it works, and see if it's if we're actually
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: happier that way, and if we can do that without
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: hurting anyone. And I think there's a lot of fear
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: around like, well, what will that mean for you know,
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: men's image of themselves if they if they do that,
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: and women if they if we put women in a
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: position of power, will they be able to respect men
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. And so it's it's
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: a very small non to that tension and exploring that
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: which is fascinating to me.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there are these there's so many of
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: these moments. Again, even these like kind of picture what
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: seemingly looks like picture perfect you know, conservative Christian family,
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: and yet there are these as much as they may
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: try to reinforce these gender roles, at the same time,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: there's again there's no perfect family in terms of perfect
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: in actually defending and reinforcing those generals, Like there is
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: going to be every family is going to transgress those
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: those gender roles in some way, some way, shape or form. Again,
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: there's no family that's going to be perfectly reinforcing those
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: And so that's where I think, like maybe we should
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: like rethink the way we think about those things. Then,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: like I saw something. It's funny you bring that up
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: because you know, obviously I'm sure you're paying attention. Were
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: by the time that we're recording this, there was this
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: kind of recent decision by the Southern Baptist Convention to
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: like reinforce that they're not going to let women pastor
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: or whatever. Right, nothing too terribly surprising from the SBC.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: And I saw a comment from some person recently on
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: like a comment on like Facebook from like on another
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: friend's post, you know of you know this, This was
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: a friend of mine who was like, you know, I
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: can't believe they're continuing to do this whatever and this
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: this guy like commented and said, I have no doubt
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: God creates many women to be equipped to pastor a church,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: but the Bible says this, And I just wanted to like, wait, what,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: you actually believe that God create a person, potentially some
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: woman to actually be equipped and gifted to do this
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: very thing. And yet you think that God that equipped
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: and gifted that woman to do that thing just in
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: the way that may was equipped and gifted to do
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: that thing. And yet because but that somehow God would
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: do that, but then God would defy himself in the
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: book that was written about him, Like that's just the
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: thing that I'm like, wait, you actually like have you
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: actually really thought through just the logic of this, Like
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: this doesn't make sense logically that you think God would
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: gift a woman in this way, But yet God would
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: also defy himself and say that women aren't actually gifted
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: to do this and can't do that thing that you
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: that God gifted them to do so and I yeah,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I think like you're sort of exposing that same thing
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: in that dynamic between May and her husband.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And what's I mean? The theology is fascinating because
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: there are tensions in theology that you can't resolve. It's
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: like a it's like a philosophical paradox where at a
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: certain point you just have to say, well, I'm just
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: going to live on this maxim because I have to
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: live on something, but you can't prove it. And it's
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: like even while at the same time I can say
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: I absolutely agree with you, and I think women who
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: are equipped to lead should lead, like of course, and
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: yet there's this other part of me that's like, but
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: the theology, I would struggle to prove it now because
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: it's wrong, but because there are things that like you
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: if you want to go all the way down the
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: line to the theological conclusions of like, well, then does
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: it mean that everything that God creates is something that
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: we should allow? And it's like, well, then there are
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: things that are evil, and like what does God create
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: those things? And the problem of evil basically comes up
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: immediately where it's like, well does God create evil? And
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: then does that mean you allow it? And it's like
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: it's so hard to prove anything theologically in a satisfying way.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: So at a certain point you just have to say,
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: I think at the foundation of all this stuff is love.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: So what happens when I set aside the math equations
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: and just sit down with the person in front of
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: me and figure out the loving way forward? And again
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: that's you know, it's it has to be tailored to
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: each situation because each person some God made unique.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: I feel like there's a white elephant question in the
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: room that I got to ask, especially for anyone who
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: watches the movie. I would imagine most of the audience
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: for this will probably be a lot of millennials, you know,
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: maybe some gen xers or whatever. So if you are
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: that typical age of probably the person that would really
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: enjoy this movie, You'll probably immediately recognize one of the characters,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: and that's Jim O'Hare, who famously played Jerry on Parks
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: and Rect. I'm just curious, like, and I'm not like
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: a huge movie person, so like, excuse me if like
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: there are other you know, more or less like pretty
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: famous actors like Jim in the movie. But it does
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: seem like he's kind of a big get right, Like
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: am I am I wrong in thinking that? Oh?
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: It was huge for me. I can still remember the
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: moment that I got the email that said Jim loved
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: the script, and I said it exploited very loudly. It
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: was it was a huge I'm a huge fan of Jim.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: So yeah, what what what was the process? Like it
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: was it just sending him an email? And that was it?
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Or what?
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: Or?
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: And why? Also? Why him? Like what was it about
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: him that you really thought he could play that role
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: really well?
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: Well? I brought on the guy who plays Mark, sorry,
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: the guy whoays Alan whose name is Mark in real life,
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: his name is Mark Kpka And he also came on
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: as a producer and as a casting director, so he
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: he was a big help with casting because he Mark
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: has been around for a long time. He's been in
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: a lot of stuff for years, and so he's much
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: more connected than I am. I'm a first time filmmaker.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Mark's been an actor for years. So he came on
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: as a producer and sent out the script to people
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: that he had worked with and people who were friends
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: with people that he had worked with. So Jim had
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: worked with an actor friend of Marx, who is Meredith,
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: who plays the mom in the film, and so that's
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: kind of it was kind of like that that situation
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: of a friend of a friend of you know, people
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: with someone who had worked with someone, which is how
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: it works, you know, it's anyone you've worked with. So
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: I met Mark through a friend of mine. Mark loved
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: the script and wanted to come on as a producer.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: Mark sent the script out to people he had worked with,
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: and it got to Jim that way. It was the
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: fact that he loved it was so gratifying to me
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: as a first time not only a first time filmmaker,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: but this is really the first script that I feature
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: length script that I had tried to make. So I
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: went into it kind of feeling quite a bit of
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: self doubt and to have someone who's been around and
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: done such great things be like this is worth making.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: It really created a sense of around the entire project
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: for everyone that Okay, this is worth making. We should
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: really put our effort into this. And there was a
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: massive ground swell of effort following that that so many
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: people joined this project and put their hearts and their
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: souls into it. And I believe a lot of that
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: was the way that Jim coming on board galvanized it.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: It kind of put this feeling of legitimacy around it
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: of this this comedy veteran who's been in something as
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: immortal as Parks and rec is saying, I love this character.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: I can I'm too busy to do this, and yet
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: I can't not do this was basically how he put it.
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: That he technically he shouldn't have done it because he
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: had too much going on at the time, but he
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: was like, I have to do this. I see this,
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: I see myself as this character. So yeah, it really
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: it really changed things for us. And of course, you know,
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: I self funded this film like it's not it's not
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: a big budget, and so Jim loved the script that
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: much that he was willing to take a lot less
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: than he's worth to do this.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's so cool. Well, so I would imagine you're
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: the kind of person like myself who probably grew up
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: on really cheesy, hokey pureflicks Christian films, and I'm just
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: trying to think of like this sort of shopping around
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: of this film. Maybe it's even even trying to like
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: you know, try to get character, you know, trying to
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: get actors for it. Like obviously like in some way,
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: it's like, you know, Christianity is a central it's a huge,
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: you know, core part of this film, and so like
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: how do you But but it's also like it's not
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: the same kind of Christian film that like a pure
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Flix film is. So like how was it to like
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: shop around this film where it's like it's not it's
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: a Christian film in some ways because it's like Christianity
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: is such a core part to it, but like it's
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: also not like it's actually really the wrestling of like
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: the the navigating of actually deconstructing faith, and so like,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: how how was that experience for you as a filmmaker,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: as your whether Yeah, maybe it's trying to cast or
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: maybe even trying to fund it, like what. I'm just curious,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: like what that experience was like knowing that you know,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: it wasn't going to be like some cheesy, hokey Christian film.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: I'll be honest, it was at times very frustrating and
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: discouraging because it's something that hasn't really been done. That's
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: kind of it. It's the most proud you'll hear me
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: talk about my own film is to say that I
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: don't really see other films like this that take all
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: the trappings of a Christian film, but say, wait, what
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: if we have all the drama, but we don't magically
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: resolve everything at the end and have it be like
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: a preachy sermon at the end. So it was disheartening
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: to show it to distributors and have a lot of
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: them love it but not be willing to partner with
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: us because it's just like, well, we don't know what
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: to do with that. The space for that doesn't exist
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: right now. There's the Christian space and they won't touch
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: this because it has f bombs in it, And there's
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: the secular space and they won't touch it unless you
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: are explicitly against religion. And so it's like, well, then,
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: who's who is this middle thing for and I know
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: who it's for, and you know who it's for because
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: we grew up in this culture and we know that
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: there is this massive subculture.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of us.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of these millennials who are in
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: this middle space of like, well, I do. I don't
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: reject it entirely, but I also can't identify with it
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: because there's so much about it that's problematic. And so
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: we know that there is an audience for this. I
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: knew there was an audience for this, and that's why
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: I had the confidence to put my own time and
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: money behind it. And yet, because it is something that
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: hasn't really been done much before, the gatekeepers don't really
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: know what to do with it, and they're afraid to
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: put themselves behind it. So it was a challenging process
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: to get it across the line in that regard. And
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: it's really it's really a grassroots effort. That's why I
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: like to talk to people like you, because it's like,
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: that's how it's going to get out. The people who
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: actually are the audience for this film are the people
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: that I need to talk to, and the gatekeepers aren't
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: gonna help with that. Because they just don't really know
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: who it's.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: For, right, right, Yeah, it reminds me. I think you're
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: absolutely right that like in terms of like film, there's
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: like really not much out there that can really get
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: to there's not much out there that really kind of
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: gets that vend diagram that you're talking about. What's interesting though,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: is think like there are musicians, like very popular musicians
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: that are like kind of doing this though, right where
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: like Noah Khan just released this new album that really
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: struggles or you know, talks about like his sort of
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: deconstructing of his faith and then you know, wrestling with it.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: I certainly know that like Julian Baker, who's you know,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: part of like Boy Genius, Like she's talked a lot
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: about that, there are a lot of other artists right
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: there that have that talk about those sort of themes
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: that you know, obviously you're certainly touching on in this movie.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: And so like, clearly there's an audience out there, and
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: there even have been some musicians that have like taken
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: that risk to write that kind of music. And so
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: like I'm hoping that maybe this kind of movie inspires
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: more filmmakers to share that kind of what I would
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: maybe describe as like an ex evangelical or post evangelical experience.
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think music kind of tends to lead the
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: way with these With these things, music goes before film
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: because not that it's easier to be a musical artist,
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: but music takes less money and effort to get across
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: the line. Sometimes a film, even though the lowest budget
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: film takes hundreds of thousands of dollars, whereas you know,
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: music you can do more scrapply and independently. Some music
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: is able to kind of lead the way, but it
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: also leads the way in terms of the structure of
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: business and how business is done in the digital age
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: where Spotify was way ahead of what happens with now,
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: the way that movies are streamed and the way that
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: revenue has shared, music tends to go first. So it
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: makes sense what you're talking about that musical artists have
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: been able to lead the way with creating the space
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: for deconstruction in the arts. And I was even really
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: into David Bison back in the day when I was
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: doing all my deconstruction stuff. I think his album Curse
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: Your Branches was a huge, hugely influential film. All right, Sorry,
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: album for me in my pulling apart my threads of
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: what I wanted to carry forward.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, well, thanks for chatting about the movie again.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Just an incredible film. I hope more and more people
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: see it. It's just it's so so well done. Are
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: you ready to talk about your what's that?
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I'm so glad you watched them.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad you enjoyed it.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Oh so good. I'll definitely be telling more and more
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: people about it. It's very very well done. You're ready
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: for your top five most influential movies. Typically we do
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: most influential albums, but obviously, since you're a filmmaker, let's
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: dive into movies. So yeah, top five most influential movies.
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: Let's do it. Yeah, I was thinking about this. I
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: think what I'm gonna do is, I'm going to give
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: you a few of films that are like these are
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: just my most influential, Like I think about these all
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: the time, I watch them all the time. But then
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: I also want to give you a couple that specifically
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: influenced this film because they're fun to talk about through
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: that lens. So a film that I always refer to
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: as one of my all time favorites. That is just
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: like perfect to talk about with this, not because it's
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: stylistically similar, but because it's a very theologically relevant film.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: It is Tree of Life, Terrence Mallick's film The Tree
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: of Life, which came out in twenty ten. It's this
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: courgeous film and it is deeply philosophical and spiritual. And
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you've seen that, but it's I
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: highly recommend that to anyone who has any any leaning
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: towards any kind of faith or wrestling with that stuff.
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: It's a it's a very spiritual film, but it's also
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: really beautiful and atmospheric.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: I'll have to I'll have to watch it. I definitely
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: have not seen it.
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Brad Pitty both accident and produced it. Yeah,
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: pre yeah.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Some publications have listed as one of the greatest
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: films of the twenty tens, twenty first century and of
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: all time. Wow. I don't know why I haven't heard
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I'm glad I'm mentioning it. Then, alongside that
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: another twenty ten film that I just think as a
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: masterpiece of the Social Network. We're talking about that a
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: lot right now because the sequel is coming out this fall.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure about the sequel because it's not directed
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: by the same guy, but it's written by the same guy,
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: so we have hopes. But then, so here's a film
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: that I kind of jokingly reference when I talk about
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: pre Marital because I refer to it as Premi in reverse,
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: and that is Martin Scorsese's film Silence. Have you ever
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: heard of this one?
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: It starts I'm trying to imagine it. I'm trying to
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: imagine it as like in reverse Premium.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: So it's about these missionaries who are captured by Japanese
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: who are trying to deconvert them. So it's this big
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: effort to take these Christian missionaries and deconvert them and
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: get them to renounce their faith, which is the opposite
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: of premarital. It's this guy who's trying to get someone
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: to pronounce faith. So it's a very tongue in cheek comparison. Obviously,
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: I don't want to compare myself to Martin Scorsese in anyway,
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: but I do love that film, and I think for
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: anyone who has interest in films that actually wrestle with
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: spirituality in an honest way, Silence is another masterpiece.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: So good, so good. Yeah. Yeah, but obviously I think
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: this this movie, Yeah, premarital Is is so good at
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: actually like nailing the religious evangelical experience obviously, like Scorsese's
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: Silence is so good at that. The other it's not
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: a film, but Romy is one of the best shows
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: I've ever seen about just the Muslim experience. Like, I
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: don't know if you've ever seen Romy, but it's so
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: well done. Oh my gosh, it's on Hulu. It's by
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Rommy Yusef. It's sort of like one of those kind
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: of like semi autobiographical shows, but he like the tension
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: that he's experiencing of trying to be like kind of
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: culturally American but also like deeply religiously devout as a Muslim.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: It's incredible. It's so well done, and it's also really
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: funny because he's a comedian. So I highly recommend that
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: you just don't really see like a lot that actually
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: feels very accurate and representative of the actual religious experience
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: that people have.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so again one more in that regard First
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: Reformed Ethan Hawk have you ever seen?
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, yes, that's a good one.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is another one that I saw that and
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: I was actually the first time I saw it, I
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: didn't really know what to do with it because it
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: was so different than what I expected. But it's one
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: of those films that I kept returning to. There are
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: a lot of those films that the first time I
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: see them, I'm just like it was okay, I guess,
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: and I something about it makes me go back, and
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: that First Reformed is one of those that I've returned
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: to it over and over again. And that is another
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: film that it takes the trappings of church and spirituality
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: and it doesn't magically try to solve anything. It just
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: presents you with unresolvable tension and says, here's what it's like.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: And I really respect it for that. And I think
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: it's based on a Bergman film, actually a Bergman film
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: from maybe like the fifties. I think it's called Winter Light.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: I also recommend that one for the real film heads
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: you want to get into some old black and white films.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: And then the last one I'll mention is as a
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: lighter hearted one, is just The Royal Tended Bombs, because
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: how can you make a movie about a rambunctious, flawed
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: family and not draw some inspiration from the royal tendon bombs.
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: We love that one.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: That's great. That's awesome. That's a great mix. Like you know,
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: obviously you can definitely see for the movies that you
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: mentioned that I have seen, Like you can definitely see
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: like clearly like some through lines with Premiered, so you
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: can you can definitely kind of see the inspiration for sure.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: So that's awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that list, Robert,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: What do you want to plug? So obviously movies already out.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: Where can people see it? Where can people go to
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: see it? Where can people maybe eventually stream it? Like, yeah,
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: all the things that people need to know about the movie.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Pre Marital is available to rent right now pretty
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: much anywhere that you rent movies. It's on Amazon, it's
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: on Google Play, it's on Apple TV, it's on YouTube movies.
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: I think it's on Hoopla, it's on it's on a lot,
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: It's on a lot of places. So if you if
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: you google Pre Marital movie, it'll come up in a
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: lot of places. And I would love it if you'd
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: watched it. I love it if you'd support it, because
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: like we were talking about, you know, the gatekeepers don't
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: really get it, but it is a movie that audiences
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: respond to. So I'm proud to say that the target
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: audience does seem to love this movie. I just need
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: to get it into their hands. So if you know
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: anyone who's who's had these kind of conversations with you
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: about religious baggage or the church or your your spiritual
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: identity in the modern age, please share it with them.
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: I'd love it if you'd show them the trailer. I'm
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: very active on social media right now at Premarital Movie,
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: making a lot of silly videos about the filmmaking process
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: and about my my thoughts about the film, and interviews
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: with actors, so you can check out a lot of
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: our stuff there. So yeah, I'd love it if people.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: Check it out. Well, thank you so much. Anything else
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: you'd like to plug, Robert.
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: I would just like to plug Big Red Chewing gum
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: because it's my favorite gum and my grandson invented it.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: What really?
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: What was your was your grandpa?
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: Did you call him big Red? Is that where the
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: name comes from? Or how did that? How did that
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: come by?
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: We started calling him big Red after he invented big
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: Red Chewing gum. But actually, okay, I don't know where
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: the name came from, but yes, we did start calling
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: him Big Red after the fact.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: It's like, Grandpa big Red, Wow, Yeah, did he happen
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: to have like red hair or something? What was what
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: was like? No, it's gotta be some reason for the
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Big Red right, No, he just.
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: He was a whiz kid food chemist to really liked cinnamon.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: So nice it does. It is like so aggressively cinnamon.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: It's like it's literally like the cinnamon stick. Yeah, it's
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: so good. Well that is that's lovely to know. All right. Well,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: because I'm a big fan of Big reds, so it's
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: good to know. You know, if you could maybe hook
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: me up with like a little you know, your your
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: supply or whatever, that'd be great.
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, every time you t Scrampa Jane, all.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Right, I'll think I'll think of him. So well. Thanks,
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: thanks Grandpa big Red, Robert, thank you so much for
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: chatting about premarital so good. I'll definitely be telling you
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: more and more people about it. It's just it's really
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: well done. Yeah. The kind of people that follow me
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: in the world and the kind of people I love
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: to hang out with are the kind of people that
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: totally grew up in that exact same world. So I
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: know a lot of people that will definitely be into it.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: So so yeah, if you're the kind of person that
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: grew up in that kind of environment and you're like
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: wrestling through what it was like to be somebody who
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: was a person of faith that was like, you know,
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: maybe I still believe this, maybe I don't, but I'm like,
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: have wrestled with it. This is a perfect movie for you,
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: you because it navigates all of those sort of things.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: So it's just really really well done. So thanks so
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: much for making it, Thanks so much.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: For having me. It's great to talk to you.