Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Doctors Said He’d Never Live… Now He Rides - From Survival to Joy: Gitti Berkhoff on Horses, Healing & Germany’s Green Care Farms | EP 38

Transcript

Doctors Said He’d Never Live… Now He Rides - From Survival to Joy: Gitti Berkhoff on Horses, Healing & Germany’s Green Care Farms | EP 38 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
• 0:05
  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
• 0:12
  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
• 0:24
  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
• 0:27
  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
• 0:31
  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
• 0:35
  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
• 0:41
  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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  Okay, I've got Gitty Berkhoff here on Equine Assisted World today,
• 0:50
  and Gitty is one of my heroes.
• 0:54
  She is a mother of a special needs young man who's now doing incredibly well.
• 1:00
  But the story of how she and her husband Henrik got there, you need to hear.
• 1:07
  And she now runs one of the best equine assisted practices I've
• 1:12
  ever seen in the center of Germany.
• 1:16
  And also has a livery yard that runs as what they call an active
• 1:20
  style, where the horses all live out in a very interesting system.
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  So she sort of wears all these different hats.
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  And in, when it comes to the cutting edge of equine assisted
• 1:32
  stuff, gitty really is a mentor.
• 1:35
  And is someone who, if I was in your shoes, listeners and viewers,
• 1:39
  I would be reaching out to her for mentorship and training, and you'll
• 1:43
  see why as we proceed with this.
• 1:46
  So thank you for coming on, gitty.
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  Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and how you evolved to
• 1:56
  the practice that you currently have?
• 1:58
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yes, of course.
• 1:59
  Thank you for having me here and to give me the opportunity to, to tell the story
• 2:05
  of my husband and me and our son Julian.
• 2:09
  And it's, it's interesting because something is near to the story you
• 2:15
  had with Rowan and maybe that touched us and Yes, it, it, it showed us
• 2:23
  that other people have nearly same stories or different stories, but the.
• 2:29
  The important things are the same and, and bring stones to, stones
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  rolling and, and it goes on.
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  And we had an, an interesting way with our son.
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  It started from, I was working as a nurse later than teacher for nurses.
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  And Henry, my husband and me met each other and married were
• 2:58
  very, yeah, fresh, married.
• 3:02
  Can, can we say that?
• 3:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 3:04
  Newlywed we would say.
• 3:06
  Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.
• 3:07
  Yeah.
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  And then we notice, okay, I'm pregnant, I am there's a child on
• 3:15
  his way and they said in the middle of the pregnancy that Julian is.
• 3:21
  Not really healthy, that he's disabled him, that they
• 3:25
  don't know if he can survive.
• 3:28
  And all the med medicine specialists said, you don't have to to, to get
• 3:37
  this child, you have to do an abortion.
• 3:40
  Is that the right term?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And we knew no, when I, I cannot survive that.
• 3:46
  I, I cannot.
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  This child belongs to us and we have to go the way with him.
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  As long as it needs, he needs us.
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  Maybe he will not survive, but we don't want to take part
• 4:03
  of his life away from him.
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  Julian was born in 2002 and he had really a lot of complications and
• 4:13
  were, he was fighting for his life.
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  We did the same, we were parents fighting 24 hours for his life.
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  And some years later when he was more stable and not so much in danger all the
• 4:30
  time, and life went normal ways, it felt a bit more normal than in the beginning.
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  I thought when he, I think when he was four years old, what about riding therapy?
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  And we live on a farm here and we had ponies from my father-in-law, but they
• 4:52
  were not so such educated that I could put my disabled sensitive child on, on them.
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  And yes, I searched riding therapy, but that was, yeah, not bad.
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  But I felt there's more, there's more possible than sitting on a horse going
• 5:13
  round by round, doing some games.
• 5:16
  Yes.
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  That's nice.
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  All the time when horses meet children, it's nice, of course, but I thought
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  there's more possible than that.
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  And I started to, to figure out is, is there a way for much more education or
• 5:34
  more magic between horse and children?
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  And I found some horsemanship concepts and started to work with Julian and
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  sometimes families with other disabled p children came and asked for the same and.
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  That was, yeah, the beginning of working with children and horses and I never
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  said I'm doing therapy or something, but it happened that families came
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  here and started paying for that.
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  Okay.
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  Yes, horses are expensive animals.
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  Sometimes you need money.
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  And there, there was a bit pressure when parents come and think, the
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  children have to go on the horse.
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  We pay you for riding lessons.
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  And I, I said all the time, no, I'm not doing riding lessons.
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  I want to figure out what the children need and what is the right magic.
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  Education and development for the, for the children in nature.
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  And there was always a, a, a bit conflict.
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  And then something happened really interesting in I look at the date it was
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  2017, Henry had the idea to send me to a program in a town in, in Germany, Lingen.
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  And there was a presentation from Horse Boy Method and I didn't know what Horse
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  Boy method, what the hell is that?
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  Okay, you, you paid for this?
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  I go, but I'm tired.
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  I had a really hard week and now this week going to Zolin and listening to
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  some people, I don't know, talking about whatever, okay, I'm going there.
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  And then it, it took I think not, not an hour.
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  And I was really inspired from everything I heard there.
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  Horse boy method.
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  I called my husband and said, I have to learn that.
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  That's so incredible.
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  I have to learn that there's so much science behind.
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  I have to learn.
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  But there's no, no place in Germany at this time.
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  We can learn that maybe I have to go to Texas, but that's, that's not possible.
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  And when I came home, he said, why not?
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  Of course you can go to Texas.
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  I, I thought he's really totally crazy now because our farm, the disabled child,
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  my mother was really ill at that time.
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  I had to take care of her and there was so much work I couldn't imagine to go from
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  this farm and my family and my child's.
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  And then we planned that and went together to Texas.
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  In 2018, in January, we were in Texas not really knowing what we are doing.
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  We were there and did Horse Boy from one to four.
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  Rupert Isaacson: I remember it well, and I, you know, I remember thinking, wow,
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  these people, they're really serious.
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  But of course I had met you do you remember back in the winter of 2017 in
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  Germany And I had been out to your farm and I'd met Julian and your son and I'd
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  seen the operation that you were running.
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  And I remember thinking, I don't think this lady needs to learn anything from me.
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  She's clearly doing an amazing job, but.
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  Of course what you've developed since 2018 is even more amazing.
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  But before we go there, could you take us back to when Julian was born?
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  You've told us he was disabled and you've told us that his life was in danger.
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  Let's have some more detail.
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  What was the disability?
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  Why was his life in danger?
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  What did you need to do to bring him outta danger?
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  Can you tell us this story please?
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  'cause it will, I will really help people to understand.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: Mm.
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  When I was pregnant, they found out was ultrasound.
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  What is the name in English?
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  Ultrasound.
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  Yeah, ultrasound That there is, open space in his back.
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  We call it spina bifida.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Spina bifida.
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  Right.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: And Cephas Hydrocephalus.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Hydrocephalus.
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  Yes.
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  We have water in the, in the water.
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  On the brain.
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  Yeah.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
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  And it was, hmm, terrible because they said maybe he will die before he's
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  born, or he will die when he's born.
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  Why did they
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  Rupert Isaacson: think he would die?
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  From the cephalitis or from the spine is not.
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  'cause there's
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  Gitti Berkhoff: some, you know, the cline here the small brain, the
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  small part of the brain was too deep.
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  And in this area of the, the cerebellum was too deep.
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  Yeah.
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  Cerebellum was too deep.
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  Much too deep.
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  And there was pressure on we call it h stem, the first part.
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  Yeah.
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  The brainstem.
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  Yeah.
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  Brainstem was breathing.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 10:57
  Gitti Berkhoff: Swallowing.
• 10:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah,
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  Gitti Berkhoff: and when there's too much pressure, you can't breathe.
• 11:03
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: And it got, it got during the pregnancy deeper and deeper, and the
• 11:10
  pressure was too high and that you could see there was so much water in the head.
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  Then yeah, at that point they, they started with surgeries
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  during, while pregnancy unborn children to, to give a surgery.
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  Now they do it, all of the children get the surgery
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  Rupert Isaacson: inside the mother.
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  In,
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  Gitti Berkhoff: inside the mother.
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  Yeah.
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  At that point was the beginning of that.
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  And the specialists said if you do that, yes, that can help, but about 50%.
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  Get into abortion to, to, or much too early born.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: And that then you have more problems because of the
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  Too early born, the premature birth.
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  Yeah.
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  Right.
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  And we, we didn't want to do that.
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  And our profess neuro, your
• 12:10
  Rupert Isaacson: neurosurgeon,
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  Gitti Berkhoff: neurosurgeon said, no, let it go like it is, and then
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  we will do that when he's spawn.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 12:19
  Gitti Berkhoff: That this water drain system after he was born.
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  But the problem with breathing was from the beginning.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: And he had a lot of p pneumonia.
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  Pneumonia because the swallowing, he, he bruised his fruit and milk
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  and something, and then he had
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  Infection of, of the brain.
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  Okay.
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  From the problems.
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  And the breathing went more worth and worth and worth.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 12:54
  Gitti Berkhoff: And then, yeah.
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  So
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  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
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  What did you do to retrieve the situation?
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  So if this situation is getting worse and worse, now you
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  have infection in the brain.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
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  Rupert Isaacson: What do you do in this situation?
• 13:08
  Gitti Berkhoff: I started praying and beaten.
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  Yeah.
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  You know, praying.
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  Yeah.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Praying.
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  Absolutely.
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  And
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  Gitti Berkhoff: then when he was, it was so bad that we thought the next
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  surgery, maybe he cannot survive that I.
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  I was at on a point that I thought I, I break with everything because yeah,
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  I, I accepted when I was pregnant.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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  Gitti Berkhoff: And I couldn't understand why.
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  I accept and we go this way and then he dies after that.
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  I couldn't understand.
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  But he didn't.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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  He did not die.
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  He
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  Gitti Berkhoff: didn't.
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  He is, he survived.
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  And then was a moment when a young doctor and me, we, we had a lot
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  of nights sitting there with him, and the crisis was really hard.
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  It was really a, a, a big crisis.
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  And then Yuan got a bit better and this young man came in and Yuan was on, on
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  the, on the table to to, to be he wanted to see him and to check everything.
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  And he saw him and the face got wha and started crying
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  because he didn't know this man.
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  And we noticed, oh, his brain is okay.
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  He can he can make a difference between mommy's face and this man.
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  I don't want to have this man on my body.
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  And he said, no.
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  And this doctor and me, we, we were so happy to see that Julian can make
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  the difference between these two faces that we'd call it in German stren.
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  This was a not he was not used to this person, and he said, no, no, no, no, no.
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  And that was really a, a wonderful moment to see that he's, he's
• 15:09
  maybe he, he has not so much
• 15:13
  Rupert Isaacson: brain damage.
• 15:13
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
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  Brain damage from that.
• 15:15
  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And then, so it went be better and better.
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  And then we started
• 15:20
  Rupert Isaacson: life.
• 15:21
  How many surgeries did Julian have to have?
• 15:26
  Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, there were time.
• 15:29
  I knew that exactly, but in the first two years of his life, I
• 15:34
  think he had nine or 10 surgeries and different stuff from the brain.
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  Then he had problems with the drain system in his belly,
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  and that made other problems.
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  Then it was broken more than one time.
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  Nobody knew from, from, growing and then he got, his body got longer
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  and then it was disconnected.
• 16:02
  Well, yeah.
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  And the was sometimes a big problem.
• 16:07
  Then he had five, about 41 degrees cel you and the next surgery.
• 16:16
  Yeah, 41.
• 16:16
  Wow.
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  Yeah.
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  41.
• 16:18
  And then you get into the surgery.
• 16:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Crazy.
• 16:21
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 16:22
  That was really crazy.
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  And you have to give that child away on the door.
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  You cannot wait until he is sleeping.
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  And that was really like to give it to, to, to some
• 16:36
  Rupert Isaacson: hmm.
• 16:38
  Gitti Berkhoff: To somebody.
• 16:39
  Well, yeah.
• 16:40
  Killing him.
• 16:42
  Rupert Isaacson: So for the listeners and viewers, who, if
• 16:46
  you just take a moment to think.
• 16:49
  What this means as a parent because of course giddy, you
• 16:54
  did not just have one child.
• 16:57
  Gitti Berkhoff: No,
• 16:57
  Rupert Isaacson: you have three boys.
• 16:59
  And so you also had to be a mother.
• 17:03
  Yeah.
• 17:03
  To the young ones coming while dealing with all of this.
• 17:08
  And I know that Henrik, obviously you, your husband Henrik, is
• 17:11
  also one of my great heroes.
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  But nonetheless, this was extremely difficult and you are working
• 17:20
  and you are doing all this stuff.
• 17:23
  I think for many people, the idea of
• 17:29
  on top of this to then start a therapy practice for other
• 17:38
  people in your position.
• 17:41
  For many of us, this would be too much.
• 17:45
  Even after some years I know that the surgeries continued.
• 17:52
  I know, okay, maybe they were more spaced out, but nonetheless,
• 17:57
  this was, this is heavy.
• 18:00
  How did you find the energy and the will, the willpower, the desire to
• 18:09
  then offer what was working for you with the horses to other people?
• 18:15
  Because I think a lot of us would say, if you had only served your
• 18:22
  son, this would have been enough.
• 18:24
  Enough.
• 18:25
  Enough, right?
• 18:26
  Yeah.
• 18:26
  But you didn't, you went this extra.
• 18:29
  Why?
• 18:30
  Why?
• 18:31
  Gitti Berkhoff: It's very easy, you know,
• 18:36
  horses give energy, give you energy.
• 18:39
  Mm.
• 18:39
  And when I was really tired from not knowing when it's night, when it's day Mm.
• 18:45
  All always in a, in a circle of doing stuff for yu.
• 18:51
  And when I had one hour sometimes, then I hopped on a horse on
• 18:57
  a pony from my father-in-law.
• 19:00
  And that gave me the energy.
• 19:03
  And that was, maybe I, I never thought about that.
• 19:07
  But there was a point that you said, we, we all have a, a little trauma.
• 19:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 19:13
  Yeah.
• 19:14
  I, I forgot that that was I think it was a trauma all this, but the
• 19:21
  energy from, to go out in nature and to be with the horses was so big.
• 19:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 19:27
  Gitti Berkhoff: And.
• 19:29
  Always in my life.
• 19:30
  I think if you have something, what makes you happy and you share it, then it gets
• 19:37
  more, that gives you more, you you become something back more than you gave away.
• 19:45
  And to share this, this luck with be able to be with horses, that was
• 19:54
  always something like a motor or something, the energy to, to share.
• 20:00
  Then I can feel what I have.
• 20:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:03
  And I always was thankful for the, this option to be with horses.
• 20:09
  And I told my children, my three boys, sometimes they say, why are so many
• 20:18
  different people at our farm all the time?
• 20:21
  And I said to them.
• 20:24
  Yes, it's nice to be here in this paradise place.
• 20:28
  And it gets more nice when you share it, when you let other people be a
• 20:36
  part of of this and get the healing energy on that, that gives you the,
• 20:43
  the, the option to, to grow and to, to stay with energy and healthy.
• 20:51
  I think that was the most reason.
• 20:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's, it's an interesting viewpoint because you are
• 20:58
  right, but I don't think everybody comes to this conclusion, and particularly when
• 21:05
  you have the level of exhaustion that you had, there's something before we go
• 21:10
  into where Julian is now, and also your practice now, because you, you really
• 21:16
  have a unique practice that I want you to.
• 21:19
  Tell us about the, I just want you to talk a little bit about
• 21:24
  your background as a nurse mm-hmm.
• 21:28
  Before Julian came into the world, because I think this has also really
• 21:32
  helped your practice and I think, yeah.
• 21:35
  There's something I've learned a lot from you because of this previous background.
• 21:39
  So tell us what kind of nurse were you and how has this
• 21:47
  informed your current practice?
• 21:51
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.
• 21:52
  I was a young nurse when I worked as a nurse.
• 21:56
  I.
• 21:57
  Was normal on the, in the hospital working.
• 22:00
  And then I started to work with a special patient.
• 22:07
  Patients, yeah, yeah.
• 22:08
  Patients with stroke, with dementia.
• 22:12
  Okay.
• 22:12
  And disabled mentally or with brain injuries, brain injuries
• 22:19
  and, and sensitive problems.
• 22:22
  Okay.
• 22:22
  And from that later, I, I was, years later, I was a teacher for nurses.
• 22:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:29
  And had this team, and this teams was my, my biggest oh man.
• 22:37
  What minor?
• 22:39
  And my biggest interest to teach about strokes and people
• 22:44
  with stroke and dementia.
• 22:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Why were you so interested in strokes
• 22:49
  in dementia and the brain?
• 22:52
  Gitti Berkhoff: Good question.
• 22:54
  Because yeah, there, yeah.
• 22:56
  Good question.
• 22:58
  I always told my students
• 23:02
  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
• 23:02
  Gitti Berkhoff: That when people are with, in province with self sensory,
• 23:10
  it's important what your hands do.
• 23:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:14
  And there's a lot of stress in this area, in this job of nursing.
• 23:20
  And you have to run and you are always in trouble with the time and
• 23:24
  less people and too much work, but.
• 23:28
  How you speak, how you talk to people, how you touch them the sensory of your hands.
• 23:35
  That's what I am.
• 23:37
  And you are, and nobody can, can take that from you.
• 23:42
  What, what you can give with the hands and this people that demand or with
• 23:48
  stroke and sensory issues, they need the sensory of your hands and of your heart
• 23:54
  and your soul and and that's they need
• 23:56
  Rupert Isaacson: touch.
• 23:57
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 23:58
  Touch from and love from here and love.
• 24:01
  Yeah.
• 24:02
  And that was, I, I think that was touched me and my mother later
• 24:07
  had a Parkinson and a stroke too.
• 24:10
  And Okay.
• 24:10
  I could help her a lot with all this knowledge.
• 24:14
  And I had a lot of touch to a lot of time with dying people.
• 24:19
  And
• 24:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 24:21
  Gitti Berkhoff: And keeping them helping the way when they have the
• 24:25
  last part of their life and all.
• 24:28
  This was my, my favorite yeah.
• 24:33
  Profession.
• 24:35
  And I was teaching a lot of this stuff and to have the children with disabled
• 24:42
  in at my place on the farm and with horses, that was often that families
• 24:47
  came and said they don't want to put this child on a horse because it could
• 24:52
  have precise epilep, unfi, epilepsy.
• 24:55
  Yes.
• 24:55
  Could have an
• 24:56
  Rupert Isaacson: epileptic fit.
• 24:57
  Yeah,
• 24:57
  Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.
• 24:57
  Or spastic or something.
• 25:00
  And I did something that, you know, it's kinesthetic, it's the kind of
• 25:04
  move bodies without carrying like this this is carrying and let's the
• 25:11
  body fly, or I can take this bottle.
• 25:14
  It's better.
• 25:15
  You can make this or you can say, okay, let's, let's roll,
• 25:21
  let's have other movements.
• 25:24
  And that's good for the brain and for everything and all this can go hand in
• 25:30
  hand with the, the idea of horse boy.
• 25:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 25:34
  Gitti Berkhoff: And with it's not riding therapy.
• 25:37
  I'm not a therapist.
• 25:40
  I try to bring horses with good education and trust into
• 25:45
  human, to people and children.
• 25:48
  They need this magic from their bodies.
• 25:51
  And I can combinate all this with movement, with sensory work, with
• 25:57
  good, educated horses and a lot of fun and and crazy stuff together with
• 26:05
  a lot of families and children and.
• 26:09
  Yeah,
• 26:10
  Rupert Isaacson: well, I've seen the fun and the crazy stuff and one of my,
• 26:12
  one of my most cherished experiences in my professional life has been taking
• 26:21
  Julian, your son out Fox hunting.
• 26:25
  Yeah.
• 26:26
  And this is something I never thought we would do.
• 26:29
  And before the listeners all scream and say, oh, you can't
• 26:33
  go killing foxes, don't worry.
• 26:35
  We don't do that.
• 26:37
  We are following a pre laid scent with hounds.
• 26:41
  No fox is involved.
• 26:43
  However, the trappings, the outward pageantry is the same.
• 26:48
  And of course, I grew up with this and loving the sense of freedom.
• 26:52
  And it had always struck me as a little bit sad in the therapeutic
• 26:58
  riding world that the experiences always had to be so controlled because.
• 27:05
  That's not what feeds the human soul.
• 27:08
  What feeds the human soul is adventure and nature.
• 27:12
  And when you agreed to help us set up these special needs hunting days mm-hmm.
• 27:20
  With a, with a real pack of hounds and laying the sensor that the
• 27:25
  riders, including Julian, who listeners is still in a wheelchair,
• 27:29
  but doing incredibly well.
• 27:30
  He, he has a job.
• 27:32
  He drives, he's all of that work and all of that angst from 20
• 27:38
  years ago has, of course paid off.
• 27:41
  He's a wonderful young man and he, he presents at conferences and
• 27:46
  flies around the world doing this.
• 27:48
  It's been a great success.
• 27:51
  But to see him in a big western saddle in a, in hunting clothes,
• 27:57
  going out and riding across country.
• 28:00
  Like this,
• 28:01
  Gitti Berkhoff: but, but let's say it's, it's, it has to be a safe
• 28:05
  Rupert Isaacson: indeed.
• 28:06
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 28:06
  We did it in walk, but it is hunting.
• 28:09
  Rupert Isaacson: We did it in walk.
• 28:11
  Yeah.
• 28:11
  But nonetheless, we were crossing country.
• 28:13
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 28:13
  Rupert Isaacson: The hounds were working around us.
• 28:15
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:16
  And we still had to get up things and down things and, you know,
• 28:23
  it was real, it was real riding.
• 28:25
  Yeah.
• 28:25
  The fact that you could do this and that you could see the value of this and that,
• 28:34
  even though I think both you and I had our hearts a little bit in our mouth, as
• 28:39
  we say in English while this was going on, of course this could only happen
• 28:46
  because you pay such enormous attention to the preparation of your horse.
• 28:53
  Now you've talked a little bit about.
• 28:55
  The need for a well-educated horse.
• 28:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 28:58
  But I know your horses and I know that their level of education
• 29:01
  is something far higher than normal in the therapeutic world.
• 29:07
  Can you talk to us a little bit about how you prepare your horses and why
• 29:13
  you prepare your horses in this way?
• 29:17
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, of course.
• 29:18
  We started our place here to be a stable for people who want to
• 29:25
  rent a place for their own horse.
• 29:27
  We have 25 horses from other people here, and we build it.
• 29:32
  And I have at the moment nine horses with and with them I can work with children
• 29:38
  and adults and we build a stable, an active stable that the horses can live in.
• 29:43
  Hers outside all the time.
• 29:46
  Move, have fun talk to each other.
• 29:50
  They notice a lot of things, machines going around them, and noises and
• 29:57
  traffic, whatever people, children fire.
• 30:02
  We, what we do.
• 30:03
  And that is one part that the horses have all their their needs and
• 30:10
  we educate them from the system.
• 30:12
  You you teach me the horse boy training system for the horses.
• 30:17
  It, it's, it's a kind of talking, it's a kind of horse boy and the movement
• 30:24
  for the horses movement, methods for the horses, and we train them with.
• 30:30
  One part is crazy time that they can play and run around with other horses.
• 30:35
  Not only one on a, a launch, but also that we are doing longing.
• 30:41
  We do the side steps pattern lateral
• 30:44
  Rupert Isaacson: work.
• 30:44
  Yeah, lateral
• 30:45
  Gitti Berkhoff: work, because that changes the in hand work.
• 30:48
  Changes the brain.
• 30:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 30:50
  And
• 30:50
  Gitti Berkhoff: then we make them bomb proof with every crazy ideas we
• 30:55
  can have together with the children.
• 30:57
  Mostly they have to help me to develop the, the horses with crazy stuff.
• 31:04
  Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's, it's something to watch because I, I've
• 31:07
  watched you, you know, lunging the horses for their top line muscle.
• 31:12
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:12
  But having the children helping you do this, and I've watched you.
• 31:16
  Working the horses in hand to keep them supple, like a yoga.
• 31:21
  And again, as you say, for the brain of the horse as well, and
• 31:25
  the children helping you with this.
• 31:26
  And, and then also, as you say, the crazy time where the horses can
• 31:30
  have a lot of fun playing in herds.
• 31:33
  But again, the children and the young adults that you work with all
• 31:37
  participating in the care of the horse.
• 31:40
  I think this is really unusual.
• 31:42
  You don't see this in most therapeutic bonds.
• 31:45
  There's usually a separation between the client time, which is often very
• 31:51
  controlled and frankly a bit boring.
• 31:54
  And the work with the horse.
• 31:56
  And one of the things I love about your place is that the people who are
• 32:01
  working the horse are often the clients.
• 32:04
  This I think is quite revolutionary.
• 32:09
  Also very practical.
• 32:11
  When you are, when you have a horse that's educated like this the
• 32:18
  brain is good, the body is good.
• 32:20
  They can collect, they can make good decisions.
• 32:24
  You can then of course explore.
• 32:27
  I think it would be fun if you told us a little bit about how some
• 32:31
  of your play dates, and I'm, I'm glad you call them play dates, not
• 32:34
  therapy sessions, because I never yet met a child that wanted therapy.
• 32:39
  But every child I've ever met wanted to play.
• 32:42
  I have seen really, really creative things happening in your
• 32:48
  arenas and in your forest trails.
• 32:50
  Can you just give us some examples?
• 32:52
  Because I think people can take inspiration for things to try at home.
• 32:57
  Can Oh, yeah, yeah,
• 32:59
  Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.
• 32:59
  And the, the most and lovely and easiest thing everybody
• 33:04
  has to try is pillow fighting.
• 33:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Pillow fighting.
• 33:08
  Yeah.
• 33:09
  How does pillow fighting work?
• 33:11
  Gitti Berkhoff: We have old pillows.
• 33:14
  Some are strong, some are wobbly, and the wobbly are the best because if you have a
• 33:20
  child on a horse and you will do a boring game, like, catching a ball and you throw
• 33:27
  the ball and the ball comes to the fingers and is pew going away, and that tells
• 33:33
  children you are not able to catch a ball.
• 33:37
  And I'm afraid of balls.
• 33:39
  In my childhood, I always had fear about balls getting into my face
• 33:45
  and I'm too stupid to catch them.
• 33:48
  And that's what children can feel.
• 33:51
  And we started that with pillows because you can get a pillow
• 33:56
  on your head and your face.
• 33:57
  Yeah.
• 33:57
  What about when it's a soft pillow?
• 34:00
  Why not?
• 34:00
  And when the horse gets a pillow in the face, ah, okay.
• 34:04
  We can say sorry, but it's not really the end of the world because it's
• 34:07
  soft and you can catch it with two fingers if you have a soft pillow.
• 34:13
  I don't have one here.
• 34:14
  It's easy to catch.
• 34:16
  You can do a lot of funny stuff because chi the parents sometimes
• 34:21
  stay on the, on the line.
• 34:22
  On the side and waiting.
• 34:24
  And then we take all the pillows and say to the children, oh,
• 34:27
  let's, let's go near to the parent.
• 34:30
  And then we throw all the pillows on Daddy or mommy.
• 34:33
  And from that moment, parents are in, we take them in, then we run away
• 34:38
  on the horse that they can throw it after us and they can try to throw
• 34:44
  the pillow that it's staying on the butt of the horse or on the head.
• 34:48
  Or you can put it on your head.
• 34:50
  You can try to to, to ha to get it on the butt of the parents.
• 34:57
  And that gets the most points.
• 34:59
  Or you can count how often can we throw it and it's not falling on the ground.
• 35:05
  And we can do it like a Frisbee.
• 35:07
  It's so easy.
• 35:09
  And we have a big.
• 35:11
  There are all the pillows with different colors different
• 35:15
  kind of soft or more strong.
• 35:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:18
  And that's so easy.
• 35:19
  Then we do what, what,
• 35:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Sword fighting.
• 35:22
  Gitti Berkhoff: Sword fighting and Yeah.
• 35:25
  Then the children have to be careful that they don't hit the head of the horse.
• 35:29
  Sometimes they do.
• 35:30
  Then we say something and then we play and we do play.
• 35:35
  We play with toilet brushes, you know, toilet brushes.
• 35:38
  Tell me
• 35:38
  Rupert Isaacson: how you play with the toilet brush.
• 35:41
  Gitti Berkhoff: We have pee pee pots and,
• 35:44
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, the potties.
• 35:45
  Gitti Berkhoff: Potties,
• 35:46
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 35:47
  Gitti Berkhoff: And we put water in.
• 35:49
  Yeah.
• 35:49
  We don't, we don't tell That's water.
• 35:51
  Like the people have to think it's peep.
• 35:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 35:54
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 35:54
  And then we have the brushes and we can put all the water on the
• 35:58
  parents, and then they scream and run away, and then we hunt.
• 36:02
  We hunt them.
• 36:03
  Hunting parents with toilet.
• 36:04
  Rupert Isaacson: It, it's an amazing site.
• 36:06
  I've seen, I've seen your autistic kids on horseback hunting their
• 36:11
  parents with toilet brushes, and it looks like they're, they're, you know,
• 36:16
  like in a Catholic ceremony with the, with the, with the frankincense Yeah.
• 36:20
  Sensor.
• 36:21
  But instead you're doing it with toilet brush.
• 36:23
  It's not holy water.
• 36:24
  It's pretend be water and Yeah.
• 36:28
  Yeah.
• 36:28
  The, the, the sense of anarchy and joy.
• 36:32
  Yeah.
• 36:32
  And rebel.
• 36:33
  And when it's
• 36:33
  Gitti Berkhoff: hot, when it's hot, it's a nice rain for everybody.
• 36:37
  And you can for children in a wheelchair, the toilet brush has a long stick and
• 36:42
  then they sit and they're small and they can brush the main of the horse
• 36:47
  because the toilet brush is longer, you can clean the horse with that.
• 36:52
  And it's all the time.
• 36:53
  Very funny because people come along and say
• 36:59
  the toilet brushes and this is really nice and gets people to
• 37:05
  communicate and ask questions.
• 37:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 37:08
  I think, I think what is so often missing is joy and, and humor.
• 37:14
  Real humor.
• 37:15
  And this sense of rebellion of breaking rules, which of course
• 37:19
  for children, this is like oxygen.
• 37:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:22
  And I think particularly children that spend a lot of their time
• 37:27
  being controlled, and unfortunately if you are special needs, a lot
• 37:31
  of your life is quite controlled.
• 37:34
  This idea that you could express yourself in this way.
• 37:37
  And then of course humor like this.
• 37:39
  This is perspective.
• 37:41
  When you break the rules and you take this kind of.
• 37:48
  When you make any kind of joke, you are seeing the situation from the outside.
• 37:54
  And I think this expands cognition because it allows the brain to, and empathy the
• 38:05
  brain to say, okay, I need to step outside the situation, look at the situation in
• 38:11
  perspective in order to create this humor.
• 38:15
  If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
• 38:18
  a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 38:22
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 38:26
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 38:32
  Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
• 38:39
  developed in conjunction with Dr.
• 38:41
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 38:44
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 38:48
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 38:54
  It works incredibly well.
• 38:55
  It's now in about 40 countries.
• 38:58
  Check it out.
• 38:59
  If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
• 39:03
  method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
• 39:07
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 39:09
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 39:14
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 39:17
  when they're not with you.
• 39:18
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 39:22
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 39:25
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 39:29
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 39:33
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 39:37
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 39:41
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 39:46
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 39:49
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 39:52
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 39:57
  absolutely gives you this.
• 39:59
  Gitti Berkhoff: There's another example for changing the perspective.
• 40:03
  Also you can do interview with toilet brushes like a micro microphone.
• 40:07
  Yeah, that's very nice.
• 40:08
  You did some microphone.
• 40:09
  Sorry, you did one.
• 40:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.
• 40:10
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, but there's another example.
• 40:13
  When you have your stick for.
• 40:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, for the, the the lunging, whip,
• 40:20
  Gitti Berkhoff: lunging, whip with a maybe a
• 40:22
  Rupert Isaacson: long handle.
• 40:23
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 40:23
  There is a, a string on the, on the end like this.
• 40:27
  Okay.
• 40:28
  The lash or this, yeah, this, this rope.
• 40:30
  This little rope.
• 40:31
  And when we go to the forest, there are, hmm, I don't know the name.
• 40:36
  Distant, you know Clayton?
• 40:38
  Yeah.
• 40:38
  Thistles, the small distals and the small balls all the time.
• 40:41
  Staying in the, in the tie of the, ah, no, those, and in the hair and everything.
• 40:46
  Yes.
• 40:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Burdock, burdock
• 40:48
  Gitti Berkhoff: burdock.
• 40:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Speaking of humor,
• 40:51
  Gitti Berkhoff: oh, this is, can you bring me a toilet brush later please?
• 40:55
  Would be possible.
• 40:55
  That would be, yes.
• 40:56
  We
• 40:56
  Rupert Isaacson: could, if we could see a little toilet brush interview,
• 40:58
  that would be, I think, quite helpful.
• 40:59
  Gitti Berkhoff: I, I need a toilet brush enthusiast.
• 41:01
  One in the
• 41:02
  the horse.
• 41:05
  And yes.
• 41:05
  And I went to the forest and all the time in this string of my lung lounging whip.
• 41:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
• 41:13
  Gitti Berkhoff: The whip.
• 41:14
  There were this distills in.
• 41:16
  Ah, and I was like, nah this diss and put them away and, oh, there's another one.
• 41:23
  And then I thought, change perspective.
• 41:27
  Let's see how many distals can hold on the string.
• 41:33
  They will fall off.
• 41:36
  No, they don't.
• 41:37
  And then you can start angling from the horse, the whip sitting on the horse
• 41:43
  holding the whip, holding this string into the distals and see how many can we get?
• 41:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Can you catch?
• 41:52
  Yeah.
• 41:52
  Can we catch like, like fishing
• 41:54
  Gitti Berkhoff: big fishes from Distals?
• 41:57
  Sometimes they fall on your head and you have a really problem
• 42:02
  or into the main of the horse.
• 42:05
  It's so funny that children sit on the horse and are fishing distance from
• 42:11
  the horse with this whip and that this changing perspective from something
• 42:16
  that makes you angry to something that makes you in a record you have Olympic
• 42:21
  discipline from that fishing diesels.
• 42:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 42:25
  It, it, it's genius.
• 42:27
  Because very easy.
• 42:28
  It's taking frustration
• 42:30
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 42:31
  Rupert Isaacson: And turning it into joy.
• 42:34
  Yeah, yeah,
• 42:34
  Gitti Berkhoff: yeah.
• 42:36
  Rupert Isaacson: And I, this just isn't taught enough.
• 42:37
  I feel in the therapy world, the importance of joy.
• 42:42
  If you are not creating joy, you're probably creating, its opposite.
• 42:47
  Right.
• 42:48
  You're probably creating some sort of suffering, even if
• 42:52
  that is not your intention.
• 42:54
  Because if you're not consciously creating joy, then what are you creating?
• 43:00
  And this is something which this conversation I is not there in the
• 43:06
  normal therapeutic trainings breaking
• 43:09
  Gitti Berkhoff: rules,
• 43:10
  Rupert Isaacson: but it's really the most important thing, right?
• 43:12
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah,
• 43:13
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 43:14
  Gitti Berkhoff: We have an old toilet from building the house and changing something
• 43:20
  and it's laying into the lost things.
• 43:22
  Place is sent.
• 43:23
  It's a, it's a hill from sand and children can play.
• 43:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, big, a big sand pit.
• 43:28
  Big sand parcel.
• 43:29
  Yeah.
• 43:30
  Gitti Berkhoff: And we put this old toilet there.
• 43:34
  It's laying there.
• 43:35
  Sometimes we, we build something with that.
• 43:39
  And really when we go with the children there and there the first time here.
• 43:44
  Seeing the toilet in the sand.
• 43:48
  Parents like,
• 43:52
  and at one point all the, the kids ask, why is there a toilet in sand?
• 44:00
  And that's communication.
• 44:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 44:02
  And then we can do silly things with this toilet.
• 44:06
  A lot of autism children have problems with toilet
• 44:10
  Rupert Isaacson: training,
• 44:10
  Gitti Berkhoff: toilet training.
• 44:11
  And then we can make a, a game with that.
• 44:13
  We can, we've thought about building poo and putting it in and building
• 44:20
  Rupert Isaacson: poo out of wet sand.
• 44:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 44:21
  Gitti Berkhoff: Wet sand or dark get horse
• 44:24
  Rupert Isaacson: poop.
• 44:24
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 44:25
  Horse or create dog poo or create goat poo, human poo.
• 44:32
  And make a treasure hunt with poo all over the farm sometimes.
• 44:40
  Okay.
• 44:41
  Thank you.
• 44:42
  Ah, here is a, a toilet brush and you can make an interview with this horse.
• 44:48
  Hello my friend.
• 44:50
  What have you to tell us today, I think.
• 44:54
  Where is your rider?
• 44:58
  I want to see the rider.
• 45:01
  Ah,
• 45:04
  Rupert Isaacson: the crazy.
• 45:05
  A master rider.
• 45:07
  Could, could, could.
• 45:09
  This is Henrik Berkoff who is the other half?
• 45:12
  And we're gonna be doing a, a, a podcast with him over
• 45:16
  on live free, ride free soon.
• 45:18
  But her Ko, could you say a few words into the toilet brush for us please?
• 45:24
  Gitti Berkhoff: Would you say something for us?
• 45:26
  Hey,
• 45:29
  no, you can, you can tell us something.
• 45:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Hi, how are you?
• 45:36
  We're, we're good.
• 45:37
  The, the toilet brush is actually inspiring me.
• 45:39
  It makes me feel like I need the toilet right now.
• 45:42
  Do, how has your toilet experience been today?
• 45:45
  Berko
• 45:47
  Gitti Berkhoff: Nice time at the toilet.
• 45:50
  Henrich Berkhoff: Yes.
• 45:50
  It, it's a good time every day.
• 45:52
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 45:53
  Everybody needs that.
• 45:55
  Yeah.
• 45:55
  Henrich Berkhoff: I have to
• 45:56
  Rupert Isaacson: go.
• 45:56
  Gitti Berkhoff: Human being is, you have to go
• 45:58
  Rupert Isaacson: to the house where everybody goes.
• 46:00
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.
• 46:03
  Yeah.
• 46:04
  And it's so easy to have a lot of fun with children and break rules all day.
• 46:09
  Yeah.
• 46:09
  And yeah.
• 46:11
  And the rule is to have no rules.
• 46:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, what's, what I find wonderful about that is again,
• 46:20
  I think kids that are controlled for so much of their lives, they lose a
• 46:28
  little bit their self-respect because.
• 46:32
  They don't get a chance to push, yeah.
• 46:35
  To sell the boundaries in the same way that normal quote
• 46:38
  unquote normal kids might.
• 46:40
  So to give them the chance to consciously break rules continuously, like I've,
• 46:48
  I've watched your play dates going from, as you say, massive pillow fights
• 46:53
  on horseback, including using the little pony as a, as a hiding fort.
• 47:01
  And also with the pillow stacked up on its butt so that you can use them
• 47:06
  as ammunition and the pony stands stock still nose his job and all your
• 47:11
  other horses going round as if they were in battle, knowing their job and
• 47:15
  participating joyfully and safely and these kids going after their parents and
• 47:21
  each other with the pillows to chucking the toilet brush water to interacting
• 47:27
  with the toilet in the sand pit.
• 47:30
  You, you can see the world of, and then going to the forest and fishing for
• 47:36
  thistles or, or, or the other things.
• 47:38
  You can see the world of these, the minds of these children just
• 47:41
  expanding and this feeling of relief.
• 47:44
  Like at last, I can be a proper kid at last, I can be the person.
• 47:51
  I should be not this poor person in the wheelchair or this poor person
• 47:57
  who's a bit depressed because, you know, I find the world confusing.
• 48:02
  It's liberating.
• 48:04
  But of course this can only happen if you have horses that are prepared.
• 48:08
  Yeah.
• 48:09
  In the way that you prepare them and the team that you have.
• 48:13
  One last thing.
• 48:14
  I'd like you to you to talk a little bit about your team because this is
• 48:18
  something I think often overlooked.
• 48:23
  For anybody's mind to develop.
• 48:26
  There has to be a tribe.
• 48:28
  We are a social animal and one person, one-to-one.
• 48:33
  It's okay sometimes, but really we need multiple personalities.
• 48:38
  But just quickly, the toilet thing, one of the reasons I find that so innovative
• 48:45
  is I remember when I was trying to toilet train my son Rowan, and this took so
• 48:53
  long later when I spoke to him about it, when he was more cognitive, he said,
• 49:01
  well, dad, I was terrified of the toilet.
• 49:04
  I was really afraid of it.
• 49:06
  And I hear this time and time and time again from older autistic
• 49:13
  people, when they become adults, they say, yeah, the toilet was
• 49:17
  terrifying because it had this space.
• 49:20
  You felt you were going to fall into the space and there was this sense
• 49:23
  of shame and this sense of fear and getting it wrong, and then you just
• 49:29
  wanted to push it away and push it away.
• 49:31
  So the idea that you could have a toilet that you can go and make friends with
• 49:37
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 49:37
  Rupert Isaacson: And have fun with and play with in this silly
• 49:40
  way standing right out there.
• 49:43
  It's, it's just genius because it takes away the fear.
• 49:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:49
  Yeah.
• 49:49
  So all of these good ideas that you have do they all come from you?
• 49:55
  I, again, you do have this team.
• 49:56
  Can you talk to us about your team and how you created the team?
• 50:00
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, the team, the team are different girls and some
• 50:05
  of them were, have been clients and then came back and stood here.
• 50:12
  And I have one girl, she was here from school practicum.
• 50:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, a practicum is an internship.
• 50:20
  Gitti Berkhoff: Internship, a school internship.
• 50:23
  And she was really depressed.
• 50:24
  She didn't talk, you know Johan?
• 50:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes, I do know her.
• 50:28
  You know her?
• 50:29
  Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.
• 50:30
  And I didn't know anything.
• 50:31
  And it's a really important point when we have a lot of children
• 50:35
  from the plaque here, tree here.
• 50:37
  And always I say, I don't want to know everything about their diagnosis.
• 50:44
  I want them to feel like a child on a farm.
• 50:48
  We always have ideas to develop them, but they, I, I want them not to have
• 50:56
  the feeling they are from glass and out of glass and I can see everything.
• 51:01
  There are children on a farm.
• 51:03
  What I have to know, I want to know, but if not, totally important.
• 51:09
  I don't want to know.
• 51:10
  And sometimes this young people come back.
• 51:13
  And sometimes they cannot find at the point after school, some go, don't go
• 51:19
  to school and they sit at home in their rooms and are depressed and have no
• 51:25
  kind of no job, nothing to do, and no
• 51:28
  Rupert Isaacson: purpose.
• 51:29
  Yeah.
• 51:29
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 51:30
  And there's no sense in all that.
• 51:33
  And sometimes they come back and start working here, and
• 51:37
  then they are part of the team.
• 51:39
  And it's really important that that, that the children other, no, sorry, that
• 51:45
  the, the young people who, the staff here, everybody has his own super craft.
• 51:52
  Superpower.
• 51:53
  Superpower.
• 51:55
  And you have to see what is your superpower and what is the child you
• 52:01
  can be, are the best to work with.
• 52:04
  And we see.
• 52:06
  Some of them are really good with the smaller children or the older one, and
• 52:12
  we don't look what we, we cannot, we, we always look after what, where are we?
• 52:19
  Especially good.
• 52:21
  And that makes, makes everybody feel okay, it doesn't matter what
• 52:28
  is your superpower, but there is one and the same with the horses.
• 52:32
  This horse is best for this job.
• 52:34
  Sometimes the horses say, oh, I'm the right one for this job.
• 52:39
  And that's what this team has to be the same and the children have
• 52:43
  to feel that we are good with each other and accept what we can.
• 52:49
  Where is our superpower?
• 52:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 52:53
  The big pillow fights I've witnessed.
• 52:57
  Your girls, your team, really getting into them with the kids.
• 53:00
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 53:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Would you say that.
• 53:03
  The majority of your team did arrive at your place with their
• 53:10
  own mental health challenges.
• 53:13
  Yeah.
• 53:14
  And by being, I So becoming professionals as part of your
• 53:20
  team have found their own healing.
• 53:22
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yes.
• 53:23
  Especially one girl, she was really in a bad yeah.
• 53:31
  Yeah.
• 53:31
  Situation.
• 53:32
  Situation.
• 53:33
  And she started working and later she told us that this was way out of her darkness.
• 53:42
  In our darkness.
• 53:43
  And yeah, she's here I think since four years now.
• 53:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:50
  And yes, everybody has his own trauma at a point.
• 53:56
  And the horses heal.
• 53:59
  The children, they come and us too, and the staff and yeah, I think most
• 54:08
  of them got better through the work.
• 54:13
  And next week somebody will start here working.
• 54:16
  Okay.
• 54:17
  It's really incredible.
• 54:18
  You know this man, it's Marcos, Marvin Marcos, really?
• 54:23
  He starts, he's sitting at home since years now, no work.
• 54:30
  And he thought about how old does he start?
• 54:32
  I think like Yu 2022.
• 54:35
  Okay.
• 54:36
  23, 22.
• 54:39
  And Marvel specialist you have, if you ever have a question about
• 54:43
  this Marvel and all the heroes he knows and he's very goodish.
• 54:51
  Patient with us that yes, that when you ask the same question again and
• 54:55
  again, no problem, he will answer.
• 54:58
  And he starts now.
• 55:00
  I think we start a bit like collecting poo.
• 55:03
  And I, I told him, oh, when we, when you are here, that's super,
• 55:08
  and you can drive the wheel loader.
• 55:10
  It's a machine.
• 55:13
  And he said, no, I never did stuff like that.
• 55:17
  Do you think I can do that?
• 55:18
  I said, yes, I know.
• 55:21
  And you know that I never bring you in trouble with questions I have.
• 55:26
  Yes, I know.
• 55:27
  He said, and he's trusting me.
• 55:28
  And at the point when he was really little, and he came here about 10
• 55:34
  years ago, I think it was really like a people, a, a person was view to
• 55:40
  the ground and cap puta, you know,
• 55:43
  Rupert Isaacson: a, a hood.
• 55:43
  A hood.
• 55:43
  Always covering him.
• 55:44
  Gitti Berkhoff: Always in, in this position.
• 55:47
  And now he's really much grown up and a person like this and started
• 55:54
  riding with a lot of safetyness.
• 55:58
  He's, he's not he don't want to have too much action and
• 56:03
  he will start working here.
• 56:05
  Let's see.
• 56:05
  I'm really interested what will happen now when he's starting working here.
• 56:11
  Maybe two hours a day.
• 56:13
  Better than sitting at home.
• 56:15
  Rupert Isaacson: No kidding.
• 56:16
  Now your own children are also part of the team.
• 56:20
  I think this is Oh, yeah.
• 56:21
  Talking about and tell us.
• 56:23
  So how does Julian now participate and Oh, yeah.
• 56:27
  'cause I know he's also working.
• 56:29
  And then your other two sons.
• 56:30
  We haven't talked about Tristan and Yan at all, but I think we should
• 56:34
  now tell us a little bit about how your family is integrated.
• 56:39
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah, I think they understood that the farm is
• 56:43
  a place to give power to other people, and it's a green care farm.
• 56:48
  And they understood that.
• 56:50
  It makes it, it gets more when we share
• 56:54
  Rupert Isaacson: what is the concept of a green care farm?
• 56:56
  Can you explain?
• 56:58
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 56:58
  That makes, it's the way to, to let nature be a place for healing, for,
• 57:08
  for families, for children, for people, whoever, and to, to not to only to build
• 57:15
  stakes from maybe steaks or meat or wheat or something to eat for people.
• 57:21
  And farming, normal farming can be, but we started to open the
• 57:27
  farm for people to, to get healing.
• 57:31
  To, to feel nature, to experience, nature to explore.
• 57:37
  And there's a green care idea.
• 57:40
  We have tiny houses for families that can come with their children and
• 57:44
  spend time in nature with animals.
• 57:48
  And our children started helping us.
• 57:51
  Yeah, the, the Julian is working, you know, he's, but when he has time on
• 57:58
  weekends, and we have groups here, people want to see the farm, he starts
• 58:02
  to explore all this from the farm and showing the groups what we do.
• 58:10
  And he knows everything about the farm.
• 58:13
  If he could walk, walk without wheelchair, lift, without, he would be a farmer.
• 58:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
• 58:19
  Gitti Berkhoff: But this is in this kind, not the easiest way,
• 58:25
  but he can be a, a part of.
• 58:27
  The screen care idea makes maybe a job for him in, in the future.
• 58:33
  Let's see.
• 58:35
  And the middle son Tristan, he is now 21 and he started studying agriculture
• 58:45
  in born in Germany and don't want to be a farmer, but he's interested
• 58:51
  in the system, green care farm and letting and, and you can create it.
• 58:56
  Maybe we do it with horses, maybe they do it in a different way later.
• 59:01
  Let's see.
• 59:03
  And the youngest is, he is a young boy.
• 59:06
  He's 16 years old now and sometimes helping with the play dates.
• 59:11
  And he's really good with young boys with a DHD because it's
• 59:17
  a bit of his personality and he needs a lot of movement.
• 59:22
  And we started.
• 59:24
  Let him move whenever he wanted.
• 59:28
  And this is a good place for children like him to live on a farm.
• 59:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 59:33
  It's, it's something which I think listeners also should know where Giddy
• 59:37
  and her husband Henrik live their farm.
• 59:39
  It really is a farm.
• 59:40
  It's not just, we often say a farm with horses when it's not actually a farm.
• 59:45
  It's just a place where we keep horses.
• 59:47
  But no, it is not only a farm, but an organic farm.
• 59:50
  Yeah.
• 59:51
  And in fact, I believe you guys were the first in your area to switch
• 59:56
  to completely organic farming.
• 59:58
  And it's, it's, it's a fairly serious operation.
• 1:00:00
  It's several hundred acres of, of intensive agriculture as well as forest.
• 1:00:06
  And you do this alongside the the equine assisted programs.
• 1:00:13
  How does the farming help.
• 1:00:17
  Your clients understand the world and develop in the world.
• 1:00:23
  Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, I notice that children more and more are so far away from nature.
• 1:00:30
  They don't know that everything you can buy in a supermarket
• 1:00:34
  to eat is from nature.
• 1:00:36
  It's coming from the land.
• 1:00:38
  They don't know that.
• 1:00:39
  Mm.
• 1:00:40
  They don't know that apple grow on a tree.
• 1:00:43
  They don't know that chicken give us the eggs.
• 1:00:47
  Sometimes children really, it's not a joke that don't know the
• 1:00:51
  difference between horses and cows.
• 1:00:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:00:55
  Gitti Berkhoff: They are here in our little town.
• 1:00:59
  And to get the children here, we have sh classes, school classes here, do a
• 1:01:05
  bit of farming and gardening with them and putting their hands in the earth.
• 1:01:11
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:01:12
  Gitti Berkhoff: Planting something, trees or vegetables, whatever, and
• 1:01:18
  that is farming to, to, to show the children this is our planet and our food
• 1:01:26
  is growing here outside on the earth.
• 1:01:29
  And one example all the time, if you hear what is what about the weather today?
• 1:01:35
  You may on the radio in the morning and yeah, today we have some clouds, but
• 1:01:40
  later there's coming the sun and then we have nice weather and 27 degrees
• 1:01:45
  today on the weekend, nobody and is happy when rain is coming after long
• 1:01:53
  part of dry dry weeks or something.
• 1:01:57
  Nobody knows.
• 1:01:58
  It's only sunshine weather.
• 1:02:01
  And they, they use the water to have the, the pool in, in the garden.
• 1:02:07
  Nobody knows that we have to take care of our water.
• 1:02:11
  And it's so important that to the children notice and learn outside this water, we
• 1:02:19
  drink it and we have to take care of it.
• 1:02:21
  And it's important to that something can grow.
• 1:02:27
  It's not important for the farmer.
• 1:02:29
  It's important for everybody to have food.
• 1:02:33
  They don't know that that's farming.
• 1:02:36
  Farming is I think a lot of farmer could start to open it for schools
• 1:02:41
  and for children that people get in touch with nature and farming.
• 1:02:47
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm always surprised that more farmers don't do that.
• 1:02:49
  Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, really?
• 1:02:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:02:50
  You know, because also those of us that really care about the countryside,
• 1:02:56
  the culture, the human culture also of the countryside, which I think
• 1:03:00
  is always a happier culture than a city culture because it's in nature.
• 1:03:06
  We cannot expect the population of people who live in cities.
• 1:03:13
  We can't expect them to care about the countryside or the environment
• 1:03:19
  if they have no contact with it.
• 1:03:21
  And if we are custodians of the land and we have to open it or people will
• 1:03:32
  not value it and they will destroy it.
• 1:03:35
  This, I think, is something really overlooked.
• 1:03:38
  You have dealt with this stress from the urban kids in quite
• 1:03:45
  a few ways, not just the.
• 1:03:48
  School groups coming to your farm, but you taking your farm to the school, can you
• 1:03:55
  tell us a little bit about that situation?
• 1:03:57
  if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
• 1:04:03
  you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
• 1:04:08
  of dressage training.
• 1:04:09
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 1:04:18
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 1:04:24
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 1:04:31
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 1:04:34
  Intrigued?
• 1:04:35
  Like to know more?
• 1:04:36
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 1:04:41
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 1:04:43
  Take it from there.
• 1:04:44
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:04:45
  There was a school and the principal of the school told us, oh, we
• 1:04:50
  had a really hard last half year.
• 1:04:53
  There were one child died from cancer.
• 1:04:57
  And there was a, like a amok situation with a father who was amok love.
• 1:05:03
  In, in, well,
• 1:05:04
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:05:05
  It, it threatening basically.
• 1:05:07
  Yeah.
• 1:05:07
  And a threatening violence.
• 1:05:09
  A lot of fear threaten
• 1:05:10
  Gitti Berkhoff: a lot of trouble.
• 1:05:11
  The, the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.
• 1:05:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:17
  Ukraine children and a lot of stress, lots of violence and fighting.
• 1:05:21
  Yeah.
• 1:05:21
  Violent.
• 1:05:22
  Yeah.
• 1:05:22
  And she said, oh, could we, maybe you can come, was one of your dogs?
• 1:05:26
  And we go through.
• 1:05:28
  Classrooms with the dog and Henry and I, we, we thought, no, we come
• 1:05:34
  with the whole farm to the school.
• 1:05:38
  And we did.
• 1:05:38
  We, we.
• 1:05:39
  So what did you do?
• 1:05:40
  What did you
• 1:05:40
  Rupert Isaacson: bring?
• 1:05:41
  Gitti Berkhoff: We brought two ponies.
• 1:05:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:05:44
  Gitti Berkhoff: Into the school.
• 1:05:45
  Little ponies, two goats, three chickens, and two dogs.
• 1:05:51
  Hunting dogs.
• 1:05:52
  Big dogs.
• 1:05:53
  Crazy dogs.
• 1:05:54
  And that was 300 children.
• 1:05:59
  Came in groups, but not really, not everything was organized.
• 1:06:05
  The children were able to decide to make the choice.
• 1:06:10
  I go to the police, I go to the dogs, I go to the chicken and to the goats, and
• 1:06:14
  it was in separate areas of the school and they could they, they could teach
• 1:06:21
  other children how to take care of that.
• 1:06:23
  The chicken get not in trouble.
• 1:06:25
  We had our children, Tristan Jota and Catarina, the girlfriend of Tristan
• 1:06:32
  Johanna, the worker of Farm Henry and me, and we had all this areas
• 1:06:38
  with this different parts of animals or the animals and the children
• 1:06:44
  went through all that and took.
• 1:06:48
  Yeah.
• 1:06:48
  Get, got in touch with the animals on the, in the school.
• 1:06:53
  And one child in at least came and said to me, this was the
• 1:06:57
  nicest day in my whole life.
• 1:07:02
  And really hard touching moments.
• 1:07:05
  And to have the, the animals, they did it.
• 1:07:08
  It was so, they were really great.
• 1:07:12
  And for example, I, I did two ropes on every side of the dock.
• 1:07:19
  Yeah.
• 1:07:19
  One, two in the middle of the dock, and then children, 1, 2,
• 1:07:23
  3, 4 children on both sides.
• 1:07:26
  And then was a challenge not to
• 1:07:31
  pull it, push, pull it, pull it, pull to pull, not to pull the dog.
• 1:07:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:07:35
  Gitti Berkhoff: To see what the dog will will do and what he wants to explore.
• 1:07:40
  Okay.
• 1:07:40
  And the dog was going around the field.
• 1:07:43
  Ah,
• 1:07:44
  Rupert Isaacson: and the
• 1:07:44
  Gitti Berkhoff: children had to follows,
• 1:07:46
  Rupert Isaacson: had to stay connected to the dog, but not interfere with him.
• 1:07:50
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:07:50
  And, and I did the ropes like this, and the dog was under, then they, right.
• 1:07:55
  They were the, the, ah, the tension of the, the ropes were like here
• 1:08:02
  and the dog was not in trouble.
• 1:08:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:08:06
  Not affected.
• 1:08:07
  If they did pull in, no, not
• 1:08:09
  Gitti Berkhoff: throw the dog into parts.
• 1:08:13
  No, the ropes were like this and the dog was under this here, and then they
• 1:08:17
  couldn't, and they was so soft, they had to take care that all the children were
• 1:08:25
  in, in, in this right position to, to go where the dog wants to go in the middle.
• 1:08:31
  And that worked.
• 1:08:32
  And I had experts to say, oh, I think the dog needs a break.
• 1:08:37
  Everybody stopped the dog lay on the ground and get cuddled.
• 1:08:41
  And the same with the ponies and with the goats.
• 1:08:44
  Not to lead them.
• 1:08:45
  Let's see what they want to do.
• 1:08:47
  Follow the pony, follow the goat, follow the chicken, get on the ground.
• 1:08:52
  Be not too high for the chicken.
• 1:08:54
  Then they come to you.
• 1:08:55
  You cannot catch them.
• 1:08:56
  They have to come to you and like stuff like that,
• 1:09:00
  Rupert Isaacson: yes, was
• 1:09:00
  Gitti Berkhoff: so nice and easy.
• 1:09:02
  The most easiest things are often the most effective things.
• 1:09:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, anytime that you do those types of exercise too.
• 1:09:11
  I think once again about this thing about empathy and perspective taking.
• 1:09:16
  Yeah, and looking through the eyes of somebody or something else or
• 1:09:21
  looking after the needs of something or someone else in a way that is
• 1:09:28
  playful and interesting and fun.
• 1:09:32
  Rather than you have to do this, you have to take care of the knees.
• 1:09:36
  They sound simple to do, but they're not.
• 1:09:39
  How do you come up with these good ideas?
• 1:09:43
  Because I think you don't see this type of work very often.
• 1:09:49
  What makes you, where, where does it come from?
• 1:09:53
  This creativity?
• 1:09:54
  Gitti Berkhoff: Hmm.
• 1:09:56
  I don't know.
• 1:09:57
  It's, it's in the moment.
• 1:09:59
  It's in the moment When I think something is a problem, then I
• 1:10:02
  think, can I make a game from that?
• 1:10:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:10:06
  Gitti Berkhoff: Can I do this like a concept?
• 1:10:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 1:10:10
  Gitti Berkhoff: When I get angry, can I make a joy from that?
• 1:10:15
  Rupert Isaacson: So it is basically the idea that what you are doing
• 1:10:18
  is you're taking every situation that is potentially negative and
• 1:10:23
  you're just turning it upside down.
• 1:10:25
  Gitti Berkhoff: Try.
• 1:10:25
  Yeah.
• 1:10:27
  I try.
• 1:10:27
  Yeah.
• 1:10:28
  That's brilliant.
• 1:10:29
  It, it helps a lot.
• 1:10:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Did, did you always have this personality or is this
• 1:10:35
  something that you learned over time?
• 1:10:38
  Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, I think, Hmm, yeah, when I was a child, yeah, maybe
• 1:10:46
  there was a Siri called MacGyver Uhhuh, and this man can change every
• 1:10:53
  problem in he can, he can build something, a machine from maybe on this
• 1:11:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:11:02
  Gitti Berkhoff: And, and this, and, and doing something with that.
• 1:11:06
  I dunno.
• 1:11:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:11:07
  Gitti Berkhoff: And that's so funny to, to, to figure out how can I find the
• 1:11:15
  MacGyver situation from that and Yeah.
• 1:11:19
  That it's, it's a game.
• 1:11:22
  It's joy.
• 1:11:24
  Rupert Isaacson: I don't know.
• 1:11:25
  Did, did your work with dementia?
• 1:11:28
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:11:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Help you with this somehow?
• 1:11:30
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:11:31
  Interesting point.
• 1:11:32
  Because the dementia people, you cannot change what they had in their life.
• 1:11:39
  It's long time ago, and now they are in a situation and feel
• 1:11:44
  that the same happens again.
• 1:11:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:46
  Then
• 1:11:46
  Gitti Berkhoff: you have to follow.
• 1:11:47
  You cannot discuss and say, no, there is nobody who wants to kill you.
• 1:11:53
  You cannot discuss that.
• 1:11:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:55
  Gitti Berkhoff: Because what they feel is the truth, and that's for everybody.
• 1:12:01
  If I feel something, it is real.
• 1:12:05
  If I feel fear because of a toilet, it's real.
• 1:12:09
  We cannot discuss about that.
• 1:12:11
  Yeah.
• 1:12:12
  Then we have to follow, follow.
• 1:12:14
  And we have to believe that the children have to have the feeling that
• 1:12:20
  I believe them when they have fear or a, an they are angry or whatever.
• 1:12:27
  And from that, if you accept the first point is accept, accept it, and then
• 1:12:33
  let's see what we can do with, with this.
• 1:12:36
  And to be creative and to break every rule you can break.
• 1:12:41
  Maybe that's can be the, the, the way out or the way in.
• 1:12:46
  More the way in than the way out.
• 1:12:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:12:50
  I agree.
• 1:12:50
  You, you've talked to me before also about the, and I think this
• 1:12:54
  is what you are getting at when you say you have to believe them.
• 1:12:59
  You've talked to me about validation and the, the importance of validation.
• 1:13:04
  And you've talked about it both.
• 1:13:06
  With people with dementia and with people with autism or a DHD.
• 1:13:12
  Can you tell us what you mean by validation and how do you
• 1:13:17
  use it in a way that isn't just bullshitting someone and telling
• 1:13:22
  them, oh, yeah, yeah, you're right.
• 1:13:24
  You know, how do you make this validation something that can lead to change?
• 1:13:35
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:13:37
  An example
• 1:13:40
  oh, let's, let's see.
• 1:13:42
  Which example would be the best.
• 1:13:47
  I had an old lady and she, she was really in fear and very ex exhausted or, mm-hmm.
• 1:13:59
  Yeah.
• 1:14:01
  And nobody knew how to get her more cut, feel safe.
• 1:14:07
  And she was running all around and asking everybody, where is my, my handbag?
• 1:14:14
  I lost my handbag.
• 1:14:16
  And they try to give her handbags.
• 1:14:19
  Here is one, take this.
• 1:14:21
  No, it, it was, it was never the right one.
• 1:14:24
  And validation meant that you don't try to talk about, stop searching your handbag.
• 1:14:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:33
  Gitti Berkhoff: And it's long time ago.
• 1:14:35
  What, what?
• 1:14:35
  There was a problem.
• 1:14:37
  And, and you don't, you don't lost your hand back here.
• 1:14:39
  Is it?
• 1:14:41
  It's about
• 1:14:44
  imagine the, the fear of losing it because I worked with her and then
• 1:14:51
  we, we came into at a point I asked.
• 1:14:55
  I asked her what she told you, lost your handbag.
• 1:15:00
  And to ask what they, what they say gives the opportunity to speak.
• 1:15:08
  And then we found out this really demand person when she was in, in the second
• 1:15:15
  World War, she lost her handbag with everything, the money and the papers.
• 1:15:22
  And she had three little children and an old woman with her and no food.
• 1:15:30
  And she lost or somebody steal it, and the money was away.
• 1:15:34
  The papers were away.
• 1:15:36
  And the, the of awe papers.
• 1:15:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, the, the identification Doc.
• 1:15:41
  Gitti Berkhoff: Identification,
• 1:15:42
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:15:42
  Gitti Berkhoff: And then she, they were all in danger and maybe killed.
• 1:15:48
  And then she, she was, she had the only option to.
• 1:15:54
  Sell her body to the soldiers, to the soldiers, that they
• 1:15:58
  don't kill them and the kids.
• 1:16:02
  And from that, she was, when she went in trouble searching her, her handbag and
• 1:16:13
  then sitting there and crying and not be alone and following in her world,
• 1:16:18
  that means that validation is not to discuss and telling people, no, it's
• 1:16:26
  not right how you feel that, and it's long time ago, and now we are here.
• 1:16:30
  It's to follow into this feelings and then give them the the feel feeling to,
• 1:16:36
  to talk about like a good friend and to be not alone and let the tears come
• 1:16:41
  and then she could come down and, yeah.
• 1:16:46
  And I, I don't know.
• 1:16:47
  How did you find
• 1:16:47
  Rupert Isaacson: out the backstory about.
• 1:16:50
  What had happened to her in the war?
• 1:16:53
  Did she tell you or did someone who knew her tell you?
• 1:16:55
  Gitti Berkhoff: Nobody knew.
• 1:16:57
  She told Okay.
• 1:16:58
  Nobody knew that.
• 1:16:59
  She never talked about that.
• 1:17:01
  She was traumatized and she was, she, she had her speak, but sometimes you don't
• 1:17:06
  have people with the opportunity to speak.
• 1:17:09
  She had it.
• 1:17:10
  And when they get into this feeling, they get really, sometimes really not demand
• 1:17:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Totally.
• 1:17:19
  How they come back to clarity.
• 1:17:20
  Yeah.
• 1:17:21
  To lucidity in,
• 1:17:21
  Gitti Berkhoff: in this feelings.
• 1:17:23
  Sometimes.
• 1:17:24
  Not always.
• 1:17:25
  Sometimes, and sometimes this is too much.
• 1:17:29
  But if you follow and not try to get them to a point, really follow soft.
• 1:17:38
  Mm.
• 1:17:38
  Sometimes you can go back to trauma and, but it's, it's a bit dangerous.
• 1:17:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:46
  In,
• 1:17:46
  Gitti Berkhoff: in this case, it was helpful.
• 1:17:49
  Not all the time you have to have a bit experience with that and
• 1:17:54
  to stop when it's necessary and important, more important to stop.
• 1:18:00
  But it's what the, the autism children also have all the parents that somebody
• 1:18:06
  comes and tries to understand and really to understand what is the feeling behind,
• 1:18:12
  because the, the emotion behind behavior, behavior is always, there's always an
• 1:18:18
  emotion behind when you are at the dentist and he says, you don't have to have fear.
• 1:18:25
  Sorry, I have it.
• 1:18:26
  It's, it's just here.
• 1:18:28
  And that that doesn't help.
• 1:18:31
  I need somebody who understands that I have.
• 1:18:35
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:18:36
  Again, is, is the validation really empathy?
• 1:18:39
  Again, it seems that this word keeps coming up.
• 1:18:41
  Empathy, empathy,
• 1:18:42
  Gitti Berkhoff: empathy, empathy, empathy, and really.
• 1:18:46
  Following the feelings.
• 1:18:49
  And
• 1:18:52
  I believe to believe.
• 1:18:53
  Yeah.
• 1:18:53
  To believe Really.
• 1:18:54
  To believe.
• 1:18:55
  I believe you.
• 1:18:57
  Yes.
• 1:18:58
  Because even
• 1:18:58
  Rupert Isaacson: if this is a construct of your imagination and you're seeing
• 1:19:03
  snakes coming out of the wall Yeah.
• 1:19:05
  To you, this is reals.
• 1:19:07
  You can't, you can't say there are no snakes.
• 1:19:10
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:19:10
  Rupert Isaacson: If you say, oh my God,
• 1:19:11
  Gitti Berkhoff: sometimes it, it, it's only, it's enough to ask what could help.
• 1:19:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:19:18
  Wendy?
• 1:19:18
  Do ask what could help you?
• 1:19:21
  Gitti Berkhoff: Do they tell
• 1:19:21
  Rupert Isaacson: you sometimes if you do this, this will help?
• 1:19:25
  Gitti Berkhoff: Sometimes it's, it's it's a point to ask
• 1:19:28
  because they lived a long life.
• 1:19:31
  What did help?
• 1:19:32
  What did you help?
• 1:19:34
  Sometimes, and then sometimes they say praying.
• 1:19:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:19:40
  Gitti Berkhoff: And then let's pray.
• 1:19:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:19:43
  Together, we pray together
• 1:19:45
  Gitti Berkhoff: and not find the solution.
• 1:19:47
  If you really a problem, you don't want all the si.
• 1:19:50
  So sometimes singing a lot of helping us in music to sing old songs
• 1:19:56
  they have mostly from the church, something that they want to sing.
• 1:20:01
  Then when we are old, we want Rolling Stones or something, but they, yeah,
• 1:20:06
  this really old people now, 90 or a hundred years old, they have,
• 1:20:12
  you have to know that homework.
• 1:20:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:17
  Again, I think that very sometimes when I'm doing trainings and in our
• 1:20:23
  methods, I will say they're often young people that are doing the trainings.
• 1:20:28
  They're often maybe 21, 22.
• 1:20:30
  Yeah.
• 1:20:31
  We'll be walking in the environment and I'll say, tell me what is that
• 1:20:35
  tree, or, tell me the history of this piece of land that we're walking in.
• 1:20:40
  What happened here 500 years ago?
• 1:20:43
  What?
• 1:20:43
  And often they say, well, I don't know, or, I'm not interested in that.
• 1:20:47
  I'm not interested in history, or I'm not interested in trees.
• 1:20:51
  And then I'll say, well, yeah, but what if the person you are working with asks this
• 1:20:57
  question then work if they're interested.
• 1:20:59
  Work.
• 1:21:00
  And frequently, like, I'm often not interested in, for
• 1:21:05
  example, Marvel characters.
• 1:21:07
  I'm, I'm, I'm not interested.
• 1:21:08
  I, I'm, I'm not interested in Minecraft, but I am interested in this child and I am
• 1:21:16
  interested in helping this child to talk.
• 1:21:19
  So I must develop some interest.
• 1:21:25
  Their interest.
• 1:21:26
  So I will get on Wikipedia and I will look up some things about Minecraft
• 1:21:30
  and I will, so that I can have at least the beginnings of a cocktail party
• 1:21:35
  conversation while we're walking along.
• 1:21:38
  And then I can say to that person, I meet you in your world, can you meet?
• 1:21:43
  That's it a little bit in my world.
• 1:21:45
  Gitti Berkhoff: Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Again, that's
• 1:21:47
  Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge.
• 1:21:48
  Rupert Isaacson: The bridge.
• 1:21:49
  That's always
• 1:21:49
  Gitti Berkhoff: the bridge to go into the world.
• 1:21:52
  And then let's see if you c can follow me into my world.
• 1:21:56
  Right.
• 1:21:56
  And it's yours too, but.
• 1:21:57
  At that point.
• 1:21:58
  But you have
• 1:21:58
  Rupert Isaacson: to go first.
• 1:21:59
  I, I think this is, yeah.
• 1:22:00
  This is often missed by people in the therapeutic world.
• 1:22:04
  It's our job.
• 1:22:05
  Your job.
• 1:22:06
  My job to go first into their world.
• 1:22:09
  Someone's coming into your world right now.
• 1:22:11
  That was it.
• 1:22:13
  Gitti Berkhoff: Some, somebody's coming into my world now.
• 1:22:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Is he coming to take you away?
• 1:22:16
  Because I know.
• 1:22:17
  I think so.
• 1:22:18
  We
• 1:22:18
  Gitti Berkhoff: have to go to Berlin now and to talk about horse and to meet this.
• 1:22:24
  Can I tell you to, to meet Dole?
• 1:22:26
  Yeah.
• 1:22:26
  So tell us
• 1:22:26
  Rupert Isaacson: what you're about to go do in Berlin.
• 1:22:28
  Gitti Berkhoff: Oh, we, we want to go to Berlin and we have meeting
• 1:22:31
  with politicians and with Mr.
• 1:22:33
  David Doyle.
• 1:22:34
  And In Bundestag?
• 1:22:37
  In Bundestag?
• 1:22:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:22:38
  In the parliament.
• 1:22:39
  In the Parliament.
• 1:22:39
  What are you doing?
• 1:22:41
  Tell us.
• 1:22:42
  Gitti Berkhoff: Henry,
• 1:22:44
  it's, it's in Berlin.
• 1:22:45
  It's a parliament ca
• 1:22:50
  horses about horses, and they meet.
• 1:22:54
  David Doyle and he can tell about his concept in Ireland, in Li Kin and
• 1:23:01
  that the government in i in Ireland is
• 1:23:07
  Rupert Isaacson: they support
• 1:23:08
  Gitti Berkhoff: supporting that with money.
• 1:23:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:23:12
  Gitti Berkhoff: And
• 1:23:15
  is coming there.
• 1:23:15
  And a lot of people, they want to talk about the.
• 1:23:22
  The, the value of horses.
• 1:23:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:23:25
  The, the, the value, the social value of the horse.
• 1:23:28
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:23:28
  And, and what is, they are more than sport horses or therapy horses or, okay.
• 1:23:36
  Okay.
• 1:23:36
  Rupert Isaacson: This is fascinating.
• 1:23:37
  Tish
• 1:23:37
  Gitti Berkhoff: is breeding.
• 1:23:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:23:39
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:23:39
  And what is, what about nature and what about living people and
• 1:23:46
  working and clients are working like at David's place, you know?
• 1:23:52
  Wow.
• 1:23:53
  And we want to bring this idea to Berlin, to the parliament.
• 1:23:57
  Wow.
• 1:23:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:23:58
  This is extraordinary
• 1:24:00
  Gitti Berkhoff: today.
• 1:24:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:24:01
  So we need to give a little bit of background here for some listeners, if you
• 1:24:05
  haven't heard of David Doyle in Ireland.
• 1:24:08
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:24:09
  Rupert Isaacson: You need to go on Google right now.
• 1:24:12
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:24:12
  Rupert Isaacson: And type in David Doyle.
• 1:24:15
  Lisett, L-I-S-K-E-N-N-E-T-T.
• 1:24:23
  That farm has pioneered our equine assisted work to the point that he
• 1:24:31
  proved to the Irish government that over five years he could work with the
• 1:24:37
  most violent, difficult young adults who needed up to four minders with them.
• 1:24:45
  And through our methods, he could bring that number of minders down to one, which
• 1:24:53
  saved the government about one and a half million euros per client per year.
• 1:25:01
  And of course, not only does this happen through joy and.
• 1:25:09
  Healing.
• 1:25:10
  But of course, from a government point of view, they're interested in
• 1:25:12
  money, they're interested in numbers.
• 1:25:15
  David Doyle is too shy to come on this podcast, although I'm hoping
• 1:25:20
  that one day we will be able to get him on to talk about his work there.
• 1:25:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:24
  But yeah, and as he, he was the one who's pioneered the work in Ireland
• 1:25:31
  to be now underwritten by government.
• 1:25:35
  So they now pay for horse boy movement method.
• 1:25:37
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:25:37
  And now we are allowed waiting
• 1:25:39
  Rupert Isaacson: for a knock on effect in the eu.
• 1:25:42
  So how did you manage to get David Doyle to the German parliament now?
• 1:25:48
  Gitti Berkhoff: Ooh, analyst, do you want to tell this?
• 1:25:51
  Because we have the problem that our train is going in.
• 1:25:56
  Rupert Isaacson: You know what?
• 1:25:56
  You know what?
• 1:25:56
  Don't worry about it.
• 1:25:57
  We are going to have a follow up episode.
• 1:26:00
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:26:00
  When you come
• 1:26:01
  Rupert Isaacson: back from Berlin, we're going to do this again.
• 1:26:03
  Gitti Berkhoff: Okay.
• 1:26:04
  And then tell about he was, I wanna know the story was, was
• 1:26:07
  David Doyle in, in, in Berlin?
• 1:26:11
  Then we can talk what happened.
• 1:26:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:26:14
  Gitti Berkhoff: And yeah, it's, I'm, I'm excited to, to be, to go there.
• 1:26:19
  Rupert Isaacson: So this is extraordinary, viewers and listeners.
• 1:26:22
  So what GIS saying is we have to end the
• 1:26:25
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:26:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Interview now gi 'cause we've got bored.
• 1:26:28
  GI and husband can get on a train.
• 1:26:31
  Yeah.
• 1:26:31
  He's the Irish, he's rejected now to the German parliament to
• 1:26:35
  basically get the German government to support equine assisted work.
• 1:26:42
  This is incredible, guys.
• 1:26:44
  Absolutely incredible.
• 1:26:46
  Will you come on?
• 1:26:47
  How long, when do you come back from Berlin?
• 1:26:50
  Henrich Berkhoff: On Tuesday afternoon.
• 1:26:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:26:54
  So we need to do round two of this interview then.
• 1:26:59
  Yeah.
• 1:26:59
  We'll do a second installment and we need to know what happened.
• 1:27:03
  Henrich Berkhoff: Yes, of course.
• 1:27:04
  It is a good, nice thing.
• 1:27:07
  Today we have a meeting with Clarissa.
• 1:27:09
  She's also there.
• 1:27:10
  Gitti Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:27:10
  She's coming with us.
• 1:27:13
  Henrich Berkhoff: This is another
• 1:27:13
  Rupert Isaacson: person that we need to get on the show.
• 1:27:15
  Absolutely.
• 1:27:16
  Henrich Berkhoff: Absolutely.
• 1:27:16
  And the, what is so successful is a method.
• 1:27:21
  Okay.
• 1:27:21
  But the people and the all the tribe, we are together, all this
• 1:27:25
  people have the same thinking and they have the same ideas.
• 1:27:29
  Hey, they see what can happen if we stay in nature of this in movement
• 1:27:36
  Gitti Berkhoff: and everybody can have a toilet brush at home to the toilet brush.
• 1:27:39
  Use it in a different way.
• 1:27:39
  Are you gonna take a
• 1:27:40
  Rupert Isaacson: toilet brush to the, to the German parliament and interview
• 1:27:43
  them and throw toilet water on them?
• 1:27:47
  Henrich Berkhoff: Not in the first round, but
• 1:27:50
  Rupert Isaacson: maybe when you get to know them better.
• 1:27:52
  Yeah.
• 1:27:52
  Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:27:55
  Okay.
• 1:27:55
  Well
• 1:27:55
  Rupert Isaacson: listen guys, in that case, I don't want to keep
• 1:27:57
  you go and do this important
• 1:28:00
  Gitti Berkhoff: catch the train now
• 1:28:02
  Rupert Isaacson: and we will do round two of this interview when you get back.
• 1:28:07
  Henrich Berkhoff: Yeah.
• 1:28:07
  Gitti Berkhoff: Thank you for having us.
• 1:28:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Best of luck lads.
• 1:28:10
  Henrich Berkhoff: We, we sent a picture tomorrow evening from
• 1:28:13
  the Irish pub in Berlin Okay.
• 1:28:15
  For you.
• 1:28:15
  Okay.
• 1:28:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Don't have any fun.
• 1:28:17
  Yeah,
• 1:28:17
  Henrich Berkhoff: no, it's never, it's always work.
• 1:28:20
  Gitti Berkhoff: Main rule.
• 1:28:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:28:23
  Alright, well in that case, I'm going to stop the record button and say
• 1:28:26
  goodbye and thank you so much for coming on and good luck in the Parliament
• 1:28:32
  and we will find out what happened.
• 1:28:35
  Henrich Berkhoff: Bye bye.
• 1:28:35
  Bye bye.
• 1:28:37
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