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Bengals Booth Podcast: Saints Come Marching In · Bengals Booth Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: Hi, Get everybody. I'm Dan Horde and this is the
0:06
Speaker 1: Bengals Booth Podcast The Saints Come Marching. In addition, as
0:10
Speaker 1: we get you set for Sunday's game at Paul Brown
0:12
Speaker 1: Stadium between the five and three Bengals and the seven
0:15
Speaker 1: and one New Orleans Saints, coming up some outstanding material
0:19
Speaker 1: for football junkies, as you'll hear from two guests who
0:23
Speaker 1: are great at looking at the game from different perspectives. First,
0:27
Speaker 1: you'll hear from the tape study guy Greg Cosell from
0:31
Speaker 1: NFL Films and ESPN. He's one of the very best
0:34
Speaker 1: at studying the game tape and explaining the x's and
0:37
Speaker 1: oh's without either confusing you or putting you to sleep.
0:41
Speaker 1: And then you'll hear from the analytics guy Sam Monson
0:45
Speaker 1: from Pro Football Focus, the website where they grade every
0:48
Speaker 1: player on every play. Before you hear from Greg and Sam,
0:53
Speaker 1: i'll discuss the latest Bengals news and look ahead to
0:56
Speaker 1: Sunday's game with my broadcast partner Dave Lappam. All of
0:59
Speaker 1: that is right ahead, but first, here's a quick reminder
1:02
Speaker 1: that you can have the latest edition of this podcast
1:05
Speaker 1: delivered right to your phone, tablet, or computer by subscribing
1:08
Speaker 1: on iTunes, Stitcher, or pod Bean. It's the greatest invention
1:13
Speaker 1: since listening to the radio online or on an app.
1:19
Speaker 1: As many of you know, I also broadcast University of
1:22
Speaker 1: Cincinnati basketball games, and following Wednesday season opener against Ohio State,
1:27
Speaker 1: I got a text message from a buddy who is
1:29
Speaker 1: currently in China on business and he wanted to let
1:33
Speaker 1: me know that he listened to the broadcast in Shanghai.
1:36
Speaker 1: I know that Bengals fans all over the world do
1:39
Speaker 1: the same thing every Sunday, and if you're one of them,
1:42
Speaker 1: leave a comment and let me know. All right, time
1:45
Speaker 1: to talk football with Dave Lapham Lap. We thought the
1:48
Speaker 1: Bengals would get healthier after the bye week. Now comes
1:51
Speaker 1: the news that aj Green is likely to be out
1:54
Speaker 1: for a few weeks at least with a foot injury.
1:56
Speaker 1: At least it sounds that way now what it seems
1:59
Speaker 1: like this is a reoccurrence of a prior injury, potentially
2:03
Speaker 1: because it's the same foot, same type of injury, So yeah,
2:06
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Doesn't need to have surgery. That's that was
2:10
Speaker 1: just confirmed, which is good news, But you don't know
2:13
Speaker 1: how long he's going to be out. Because I remember
2:15
Speaker 1: in that instance he had an insert put in his
2:18
Speaker 1: shoe and tried to play and couldn't do it. So
2:22
Speaker 1: he's going to be interesting how it unfolds as the
2:24
Speaker 1: as the week and weeks go along. But yeah, when
2:27
Speaker 1: you lose a guy like AJ Green, that's a that's
2:32
Speaker 1: a that's a tough tyler. Boyd started a taste a
2:36
Speaker 1: little bit what it's like to get double team. He's
2:38
Speaker 1: going to taste at every snap. Now they're going to
2:39
Speaker 1: tilt coverage to him, Odd and Tate. Unfortunately, due to
2:43
Speaker 1: the injury to Carl lasson the ACL, he's on the
2:46
Speaker 1: IR and it opened to barrossa spot and they brought
2:48
Speaker 1: out and Tat up from the practice squad, and you know,
2:50
Speaker 1: hopefully he gets this opportunity because he's one of those
2:52
Speaker 1: guys that's open wh he's covered. You know, he's a
2:54
Speaker 1: big guy, can box people out and can make catches.
2:56
Speaker 1: The biggest thing to do is catch to football. You know,
2:58
Speaker 1: see if he has some of a niche a role
3:00
Speaker 1: carved out in the red zone or a third down packages,
3:03
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. So yeah, it's going to
3:05
Speaker 1: be one of those cases Dan where there's not another
3:08
Speaker 1: Aj Green. They're not going to be able to replace
3:10
Speaker 1: him with another guy. So it's one of those old sayings.
3:14
Speaker 1: Everybody do a little, nobody has to do a lot
3:16
Speaker 1: because nobody's gonna be able to do what Aj Green
3:18
Speaker 1: does just one person. Other people across the board are
3:21
Speaker 1: gonna have to step up their game collectively to replace
3:24
Speaker 1: aj Green. The Bengals will definitely be without Carl Lawson
3:28
Speaker 1: for the rest of the year. He only had one
3:30
Speaker 1: sack in the first half of the season lap, but
3:32
Speaker 1: he was third on the team in quarterback hits behind
3:34
Speaker 1: Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap. How is Carl Lawson playing
3:37
Speaker 1: and who gets those snaps? I think Carl Lawson was
3:40
Speaker 1: playing well in terms of, you know, making the quarterback
3:42
Speaker 1: get off his spot. You know, he would a lot
3:44
Speaker 1: of times he was the initial penetration guy and the
3:47
Speaker 1: quarterback had to make a move as a result of
3:50
Speaker 1: his effort to disrupt and then other guys would you know,
3:53
Speaker 1: would benefit from it. So, I mean, he's he's a
3:56
Speaker 1: definite factor in that edge rush. And there's there's no
3:59
Speaker 1: doubt that, uh that Carlsson is a huge loss. There's
4:03
Speaker 1: no question about it that Nickel pass rush. God, it's
4:05
Speaker 1: gonna I think, play more snaps outside and not as
4:09
Speaker 1: many as as a pass rushing defensive tackle and nicol
4:12
Speaker 1: as Sam Hubbard. Sam is going to have to, uh
4:14
Speaker 1: you know, be involved, and I think I think you'll
4:16
Speaker 1: do well. You know, they got a rotation now where
4:19
Speaker 1: they're they're basically down to four defensive ends, so you know,
4:22
Speaker 1: Michael Johnson can go inside, Sam Hubbard can go inside.
4:25
Speaker 1: Both those guys can slide inside and play nickel defensive
4:28
Speaker 1: tackle and pass rush from there, you know, you can
4:30
Speaker 1: have Jordan Willison, Carlos Dunlap on the edge. Then you
4:32
Speaker 1: can also you know, leave Billings and Atkins in there
4:35
Speaker 1: and let Hubbard and Michael Johnson take some snaps as
4:38
Speaker 1: as defensive ends as well, you know, for a rotation standpoint,
4:42
Speaker 1: so you have the versatility of Hubbard and Johnson being
4:45
Speaker 1: able to do both to swing inside and stay on
4:47
Speaker 1: the edge. And uh but I think I think that
4:50
Speaker 1: their snaps will increase and I think Hubbards will decrease
4:54
Speaker 1: as that as that you know that Nickel defensive tackle
4:57
Speaker 1: pass rusher um and I think will it be will
5:01
Speaker 1: they give the same look that Carl Lawson gave no,
5:04
Speaker 1: you know, not not necessarily. But they both have their
5:06
Speaker 1: own skill set and I think the Bengals will will
5:10
Speaker 1: be fine with that with that rotation. But you know,
5:12
Speaker 1: they're down to eight down to eight defensive lineman now
5:15
Speaker 1: instead of nine with Carl Lawson going on on injury reserve.
5:18
Speaker 1: They brought up out and tap and stayed with the
5:21
Speaker 1: with the eight down lineman and just have a pure
5:23
Speaker 1: rotation with four interior guys and four guys on the edge,
5:27
Speaker 1: sticking with a D line. Adolphus Washington was in for
5:30
Speaker 1: thirty five snaps in the last game. He had three tackles,
5:33
Speaker 1: including a sack. He had another quarterback hit. How his
5:36
Speaker 1: he looked since joining his hometown team. I think he's
5:40
Speaker 1: what I thought he'd be in terms of he's pretty athletic.
5:42
Speaker 1: I mean, he's he's a guy that that he's a
5:45
Speaker 1: big body guy, but he has great lateral movement, you know,
5:48
Speaker 1: and he has a field burst. He can, he can penetrate,
5:51
Speaker 1: he can he can move well, like I said, from
5:54
Speaker 1: side to side. His lateral movement skills. The sack that
5:57
Speaker 1: he got, everybody was fooled by the hard play fake
5:59
Speaker 1: it was you know, it was It was a hard
6:01
Speaker 1: play action run to the left away from him. He
6:03
Speaker 1: was playing the defensive tackle on the opposite side, and
6:06
Speaker 1: everybody linebackers included, everybody a bit hard and he didn't.
6:10
Speaker 1: So he saw something reds He just took it straight
6:12
Speaker 1: up the football field and as a result of that
6:14
Speaker 1: got a quarterback sack, contained and corraled the quarterback individually,
6:18
Speaker 1: and then took him to the ground. So that was
6:20
Speaker 1: that was a really good play by him. And I
6:23
Speaker 1: think as the season goes on and he becomes more
6:25
Speaker 1: and more familiar with not only this defensive scheme and
6:28
Speaker 1: terminology and everything goes along with it, but his teammates
6:31
Speaker 1: and how guys you know. It's it's just like an
6:33
Speaker 1: offensive lineman. I remember playing when when you first started
6:37
Speaker 1: playing with a new tackle and the twists and stunts
6:40
Speaker 1: and end penetrate tackle loop or the or the reverse
6:44
Speaker 1: the tackle penetrate end loop. You have to have a
6:46
Speaker 1: feel for what level. You know, one one tackle white
6:49
Speaker 1: set a little bit deeper than the other. One guy
6:51
Speaker 1: has longer legs, shorter arms. One guy is longer arm shortly.
6:55
Speaker 1: You just have to get a feel for the for
6:57
Speaker 1: the guy next to you, and it becomes an unspoken
6:59
Speaker 1: you know communication, and then you don't even worry about it.
7:02
Speaker 1: And you've done it so many times, you know, if
7:04
Speaker 1: you pass that off, the tackles right there to take
7:06
Speaker 1: when you're gonna take the looper. Well, same thing with
7:08
Speaker 1: defensive lineman. You know they have to have a sense
7:10
Speaker 1: and a feel for all right, is he going to
7:12
Speaker 1: hit the gap hard? Is he gonna grab two? Is
7:15
Speaker 1: he more of a penetrator that doesn't grab two, he
7:17
Speaker 1: just grabs one. You know, there's different things that you
7:19
Speaker 1: have to work through and the only way you can
7:22
Speaker 1: do that is by repetition and practice. Repetition is one thing,
7:26
Speaker 1: but in a game totally different ball game, you can
7:29
Speaker 1: rep it fifty times in practice and will never unfold
7:31
Speaker 1: the way to unfolds in a football game in live
7:33
Speaker 1: action with you know guys you've never gone against as
7:37
Speaker 1: an opposition. So there's a lot to that lap. According
7:41
Speaker 1: to the website Pro Football Focus, where they grade every
7:43
Speaker 1: player on every play, the highest graded Bengal at his
7:47
Speaker 1: position is not Geno Atkins, who is tenth among interior lineman,
7:50
Speaker 1: or A. J. Green, who is seventh among wide receivers.
7:53
Speaker 1: It's rookie Jesse Bates, who ranks fourth among safeties. Does
7:56
Speaker 1: that surprise you. I'm not shocked, maybe mildly surprised that
8:00
Speaker 1: he transitioned as quickly as he did. I think they
8:03
Speaker 1: had a lot of confidence in him because we've met
8:05
Speaker 1: him and know how intelligent he is and focused he is,
8:08
Speaker 1: and you know, he's, like we talked about Dan, he's
8:10
Speaker 1: one of these rookies that seems like a ten year guy.
8:13
Speaker 1: You know, Sam Hubbard and last year's rookie class had
8:15
Speaker 1: willis the same type of guy. They they come in
8:17
Speaker 1: as rookies and they act like they're you know, five
8:19
Speaker 1: seven ten year pros already in terms of understanding what
8:23
Speaker 1: it is to be a pro and how to get
8:25
Speaker 1: ready mentally, physically, every way there is to do it.
8:27
Speaker 1: And I do remember with him, veteran players saying during
8:34
Speaker 1: the course of training camp, when I was asking about
8:36
Speaker 1: him how he's doing back there, saying, remember him saying
8:39
Speaker 1: that he doesn't hesitate to ask these veterans questions. And
8:42
Speaker 1: then I asked the veterans, you know, Bates, he's pretty
8:44
Speaker 1: inquisitive him. They're like, yeah, man, you know, he asked
8:47
Speaker 1: good questions. It's not he doesn't just throw stuff out
8:49
Speaker 1: there just to like, you know, do it to maybe
8:52
Speaker 1: try to impressure. He's asking good, good questions, so we
8:55
Speaker 1: know that he's understanding the big picture. And so that
8:58
Speaker 1: that was an encouraging sign. And then the guy's a playmaker.
9:01
Speaker 1: You know, they were they were wanting to get that
9:03
Speaker 1: injection of that type of player at the state position.
9:06
Speaker 1: They've gotten it, and it's rubbed off a little bit.
9:08
Speaker 1: And Sean Williams, both those guys three interceptions a piece,
9:10
Speaker 1: you know, amongst the league leaders, and Jesse took one
9:13
Speaker 1: back for score. That's one of the four defensive touchdowns.
9:15
Speaker 1: So they've had their issues defensively, no doubt, but he's
9:19
Speaker 1: definitely been a bright spot. Lap This Sunday, the Bengals
9:21
Speaker 1: host in New Orleans Saints, who lost their opener forty
9:24
Speaker 1: eight to forty to Tampa Bay and have not lost since.
9:27
Speaker 1: And the guy leading the way as their thirty nine
9:29
Speaker 1: year old quarterback, Drew Brees eighteen touchdown passes, one interception,
9:34
Speaker 1: the best passer rating in the NFL at one twenty
9:37
Speaker 1: point six, and the interesting thing Dan also on third
9:41
Speaker 1: down in the fourth quarter, the two money spots for
9:43
Speaker 1: a quarterback. He's got a rating of one twenty and
9:46
Speaker 1: both of those instances think he's second in the NFL
9:48
Speaker 1: and one categorian like third or fourth and the other.
9:52
Speaker 1: So he is big time. And the thing about he's
9:55
Speaker 1: a unicorn, you know, a six foot quarterback in today's NFL,
9:59
Speaker 1: where the prototype is the six foot five in strapping
10:02
Speaker 1: lad with the big strong cannon arm. You know, Mahomes
10:06
Speaker 1: is six three, two hundred and thirty plus pounds. Drew
10:08
Speaker 1: Brees is a peanut compared to that guy. But he
10:11
Speaker 1: throws with such anticipation and accuracy, and he knows his offense,
10:15
Speaker 1: I mean inside out. And I remember here recently, you know,
10:20
Speaker 1: reading reading something about how even when he has a
10:23
Speaker 1: bye week or in the early stage as a training camp,
10:26
Speaker 1: he'll go out and go through all of his reads
10:30
Speaker 1: and all of his movements against air, just to get
10:32
Speaker 1: his entire workout in. And people are like, you know, hey,
10:35
Speaker 1: why don't you go home? We have a week off,
10:36
Speaker 1: And that's just he gets in that mode. Nobody out
10:39
Speaker 1: works Drew Brees, and that's he's a great example of
10:42
Speaker 1: there are no shortcuts, and you know, hard work pays off,
10:45
Speaker 1: and for him to do what he's done, and this
10:47
Speaker 1: stat is interesting one of the week for me. You know,
10:50
Speaker 1: I saw it a while back where he's thrown for
10:52
Speaker 1: forty three hundred yards in war twelve straight seasons. John
10:56
Speaker 1: Elway never did it once in Elway's sixteen year career
10:59
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame. Breeze a model of consistency.
11:02
Speaker 1: Forty three hundred plus yards twelve straight years after ripping
11:06
Speaker 1: up a labor. I mean, you know, he first pick
11:09
Speaker 1: in the second round to the Chargers. They went LT
11:12
Speaker 1: and Drew Brees. LT's in the Hall of Fame. Drew
11:15
Speaker 1: Brees is gonna be I mean, Chargers had a hell
11:18
Speaker 1: of a draft. Unfortunately for Breezy, rips his labor them
11:20
Speaker 1: up and it was Miami or New Orleans. Saban was
11:24
Speaker 1: the head coach at Miami. Decided to go to New Orleans.
11:27
Speaker 1: A Saban gun him. He would have won a bunch
11:28
Speaker 1: of Super Bowls in Miami and not even gone to
11:31
Speaker 1: the college ranks, went all the national championships. He would
11:33
Speaker 1: have been right down in Miami winning them all. Like
11:36
Speaker 1: Don Shula. Did we know how good The Saints offense
11:39
Speaker 1: is number two in the NFL and scoring at about
11:41
Speaker 1: thirty five points a game. One point below Kansas City.
11:45
Speaker 1: But what about the Saints defense. Well, they've they've got
11:48
Speaker 1: some players. I mean, Cameron Jordan is a good defensive end,
11:51
Speaker 1: a consistent pass rush or a multiple Pro Bowl guy.
11:54
Speaker 1: On the back end, they have Lattimore, you know, a
11:56
Speaker 1: shutdown corner player. But they've had their issues. I mean,
12:00
Speaker 1: they're they're towards the bottom of the standings in a
12:02
Speaker 1: lot of categories, and an area that they struggle in
12:05
Speaker 1: is red zone defense. They're they're giving up a lot
12:08
Speaker 1: of touchdowns. They're touchdown percentages well into the sixty percent,
12:12
Speaker 1: about twenty seventh in the league as I recall. So
12:15
Speaker 1: they're struggling there and I think that's going to be
12:17
Speaker 1: a big key in this football game. The Bengals and
12:20
Speaker 1: number one in the NFL and red zone touchdown percentage,
12:23
Speaker 1: the Saints are right up there, third or fourth themselves.
12:26
Speaker 1: Both defenses are struggling in that area. So who's going
12:29
Speaker 1: to get seven? Who's going to be held to three?
12:31
Speaker 1: I think the defense that rises up in the condensed
12:34
Speaker 1: field and holds it to field goal opportunities. And if
12:37
Speaker 1: that can happen more than once, you know, all of
12:38
Speaker 1: a sudden, you're trading in seven for three and you're
12:40
Speaker 1: down to score. You know, it's fourteen to six. So
12:44
Speaker 1: I think that's going to be a big, big factor
12:46
Speaker 1: who plays the best red zone defense because I think
12:49
Speaker 1: both offenses are probably going to be able to move
12:51
Speaker 1: the football between the twenties and then who's going to
12:55
Speaker 1: batten down the hatches. And the thing about you know,
12:58
Speaker 1: Drew Brees, we've talked about earlier. He's got one interception
13:01
Speaker 1: and they didn't return it for any yards, so he
13:03
Speaker 1: hasn't heard his football team a lick. You know, They've
13:06
Speaker 1: they've fumbled it a little bit. They've put it on
13:08
Speaker 1: the ground eleven times, they've lost seven of them. But
13:11
Speaker 1: I mean, Drew Brees will not turn the football over.
13:13
Speaker 1: So Andy's gonna have to be good in that area.
13:16
Speaker 1: And the Bengals have only lost one fumbled themselves all year,
13:18
Speaker 1: so they're tied for first in that category. So it
13:21
Speaker 1: is going to be a football game decided by who
13:23
Speaker 1: takes care of the football and who scores in the
13:25
Speaker 1: red zone because I think both defenses have had their
13:29
Speaker 1: issues in terms of given up yards and that could continue.
13:32
Speaker 1: When people discuss the NFL's best head coach is Bill
13:34
Speaker 1: Belichick obviously tops the list. You're probably going to hear
13:37
Speaker 1: the name Andy Reid, maybe the young gun Sean McVeigh
13:41
Speaker 1: the Rams. Seems to me Sean Payton doesn't generally get
13:45
Speaker 1: that kind of acclamation. How high should he be on
13:48
Speaker 1: the list? I think pretty high. And the reason I'm
13:51
Speaker 1: based out on a lot of things, but one of
13:53
Speaker 1: the biggest things is Mike Zimmer's respect for him. And
13:56
Speaker 1: I respect the hell out of Zimmer as a defensive
13:59
Speaker 1: coach and as a coach in general. I think he
14:02
Speaker 1: knows good coaches and he has nothing but high praise
14:06
Speaker 1: for Sean Payton. You know, they worked together with Bill
14:09
Speaker 1: Parcels down in Dallas, and and Sean Payton is from
14:12
Speaker 1: that Bill Parcels coaching tree as his Zimmer And I
14:16
Speaker 1: think that I met Sean Payton the first time I
14:18
Speaker 1: met him was at Miami of Ohio. He was on
14:21
Speaker 1: the coaching staff when my son was playing football up there.
14:23
Speaker 1: And every time I see Sean Payton, I my son Dave.
14:26
Speaker 1: We were at a Super Bowl together and we're walking
14:29
Speaker 1: around at media day and there Sean Payton. He comes
14:32
Speaker 1: up and says, hello, my son almost dropped his teeth
14:34
Speaker 1: you know that Sean Payton would remember him and you know,
14:37
Speaker 1: come up out of a crowd and say hello to
14:39
Speaker 1: us and everything, and uh so that told me a
14:41
Speaker 1: lot about Sean Payton. The mind that he has to
14:43
Speaker 1: have that kind of memory, I think is pretty pretty
14:45
Speaker 1: extraordinary in the people's skill stuff, but I think he
14:49
Speaker 1: is an unbelievably skilled coach in terms of not only
14:53
Speaker 1: handling and leading men, but in terms like Andy Reid type,
14:59
Speaker 1: his ematic. You know, the way he window dresses things,
15:02
Speaker 1: the way he puts guys in different parts of the formation,
15:06
Speaker 1: and what he's doing with Taysom Hill is amazing. This
15:10
Speaker 1: quarterback from Byu who's like two hundred and twenty five
15:12
Speaker 1: pounds and he's using them in the wildcat. He's using
15:14
Speaker 1: the special teams. You know, he always has a little
15:17
Speaker 1: gimmick and gadget. The thing that I remember him for
15:19
Speaker 1: to is the onside kicking the Super Bowl. Gutsie come
15:22
Speaker 1: out to start the second half, try to get the
15:24
Speaker 1: possession of the football and it worked. I mean, you'd
15:26
Speaker 1: roll the dice man you can get killed forever or
15:30
Speaker 1: as if it works out, your riverboat gambler and successful
15:33
Speaker 1: one to boot for the rest of your life. So
15:35
Speaker 1: he hit the guts to do that in the biggest stage,
15:37
Speaker 1: the biggest game of his life. And I think Dan,
15:41
Speaker 1: it's like Brady and Belichick. You know, in this league
15:44
Speaker 1: in this era, head coach, quarterback or a king. Now
15:48
Speaker 1: you have Andy Reid and you have Mahomes. Everybody's buzzing
15:51
Speaker 1: about that. How about Drew Brees and Sean Payton. I
15:54
Speaker 1: mean that dynamic duo was about as good as there's
15:56
Speaker 1: been in the league for a long long time in
15:58
Speaker 1: terms of, you know, offensive mindset, productivity, everything that goes
16:03
Speaker 1: along with it. Those two are attached to hip and
16:06
Speaker 1: he's I think he's special. I think he's a heck
16:09
Speaker 1: of a coach. Last thing, since these two teams are
16:12
Speaker 1: in opposite conferences, they don't play each other very often.
16:15
Speaker 1: Every four years, the Bengals take on the Saints. Back
16:18
Speaker 1: in your playing days, you faced New Orleans three times,
16:21
Speaker 1: including a game second week of the nineteen seventy five
16:24
Speaker 1: season that was the first regular season game ever played
16:28
Speaker 1: in the Superdome. What do you remember. I remember we
16:32
Speaker 1: shut him out. It was twenty one nothing and I
16:35
Speaker 1: was playing against a guy named Bob Pollard to war
16:38
Speaker 1: number eighty two. I'd never played against the defensive lineman
16:40
Speaker 1: that war number in the eighties before, and I remember
16:42
Speaker 1: looking at him on looking at it on the celluloyd
16:45
Speaker 1: the sixteen millimeter film back in the day, and I'm like,
16:47
Speaker 1: what did this guy move from tight end to a
16:49
Speaker 1: defensive tackle and six three, two hundred and fifty ish
16:52
Speaker 1: type guy. So he was a different type of you know,
16:55
Speaker 1: more linear type defensive tackle as opposed to Joe Green,
16:58
Speaker 1: Walter Johnson, guys that I had been playing, you know,
17:00
Speaker 1: twice a year Pittsburgh and Cleveland, those type of big behemus.
17:04
Speaker 1: He was. He was a different kind of guy, um,
17:06
Speaker 1: and I thought I matched up well against him because
17:09
Speaker 1: he was he was more of a basketball type guy,
17:12
Speaker 1: and I played basketball as well, and a lot of
17:14
Speaker 1: his moves were predicated on that type of thing. So
17:17
Speaker 1: I really felt like I was out on a basketball
17:18
Speaker 1: court boxing this guy out, you know, but I was
17:20
Speaker 1: looking at him instead of doing it from you know,
17:23
Speaker 1: with my with my dairy air, you know, not being
17:25
Speaker 1: able to see him, just feeling that would now I
17:26
Speaker 1: could see him and move with him, and I felt
17:28
Speaker 1: like I could move decently and had had a pretty
17:30
Speaker 1: good game against him. And the other thing I remember is, uh,
17:33
Speaker 1: one of my all time favorite people, Archie Manning got
17:35
Speaker 1: a beating. He took up pounding that day. The defense
17:38
Speaker 1: shut the Saints out, Archie got you know, yanked, and
17:41
Speaker 1: Kenny Anderson, you know, it was magnificent with his three
17:44
Speaker 1: touchdown passes. So Kenny out played Archie. But two of
17:48
Speaker 1: the not only great quarterbacks of the era, but two
17:51
Speaker 1: of the best people you're ever gonna want to meet,
17:53
Speaker 1: Archie Manning and Kenny Anderson squaring off and uh. And
17:56
Speaker 1: that I do remember though, walking out and looking up
18:00
Speaker 1: because you know, you play in the Astrodome. That's one
18:02
Speaker 1: thing put the Superdome. You could have put the Astrodome
18:04
Speaker 1: in the Superdome multiple times. The vastness of it. I
18:07
Speaker 1: remember looking up, It's like a mouth of gape, you know,
18:09
Speaker 1: like what the heck? And when we drove up to it,
18:12
Speaker 1: I thought, this looks like a like an outer space
18:14
Speaker 1: thing came and landed in New Orleans, right in the
18:16
Speaker 1: middle of the you know, of the French Quarter. I mean,
18:19
Speaker 1: it was so different looking on the exterior, the architectural
18:21
Speaker 1: design of it and everything was strikingly different. It was
18:24
Speaker 1: definitely a you know, a trend setter. If the if
18:27
Speaker 1: the the Astrodome is the eighth wonder of the world,
18:31
Speaker 1: this had to be higher than that because it was.
18:33
Speaker 1: It was an amazing place, the home to seven Super
18:35
Speaker 1: Bowls and five Final Fours. To me, still the best
18:39
Speaker 1: place for a big time sporting event. Fans can congregate
18:43
Speaker 1: and on Bourbon Street hang out in New Orleans. They
18:45
Speaker 1: kind of live and let live, vibe and then get
18:48
Speaker 1: together for the big game, whether it's football or basketball
18:51
Speaker 1: under the Superdome. A couple of Hurricanes, a couple of Beignets.
18:54
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a good living, there's no question
18:57
Speaker 1: about it. And there's not a bad seat in the place,
19:00
Speaker 1: that's for sure. And there's a lot of them. There's
19:02
Speaker 1: a lot of seats. Yeah, New Orleans. That's a tough
19:04
Speaker 1: place to beat in terms of an event like that
19:08
Speaker 1: party plus the actual event itself at doug Will Hunt
19:12
Speaker 1: down there in the South. Thanks Lap. Time to hear
19:14
Speaker 1: from our first guest. If you love the NFL chess
19:18
Speaker 1: match between teams and coaches, you should watch Greg co
19:21
Speaker 1: Sell every weekend on the NFL Matchup Show. It's on
19:25
Speaker 1: Saturday mornings on ESPN. Two or Sunday mornings on ESPN,
19:30
Speaker 1: or you can do what I do and DVR it
19:32
Speaker 1: every week. Greg joined Dave Lapham and me on the
19:35
Speaker 1: Bengals PEP Rally Show and we started our conversation by
19:39
Speaker 1: discussing the Bengals defense, currently last in the NFL and
19:43
Speaker 1: yards allowed. After studying the tape, I asked Greg what
19:47
Speaker 1: deficiencies stand out. I would say their linebacker position has
19:52
Speaker 1: been a problem this year, and again I don't know when.
19:56
Speaker 1: When does Nick Vigil do back or is he shortly
20:01
Speaker 1: if not right after the buy, hopefully no more than
20:04
Speaker 1: a week later they I agree with you, sir, he
20:07
Speaker 1: is the missing piece. He's the guy that can play
20:10
Speaker 1: nickel linebacker run with those tight ends and running backs.
20:13
Speaker 1: I agree, he's the only linebacker they have that can cover,
20:18
Speaker 1: and that's a problem today's NFL if you don't have
20:21
Speaker 1: a linebacker that can cover, because every team has to
20:24
Speaker 1: play man to man at some point. Now they're not
20:26
Speaker 1: a predominant man to man defense, but still every game
20:30
Speaker 1: presents situations where you have to match up, and they
20:33
Speaker 1: really can't match up well with tight ends or backs
20:36
Speaker 1: without Nick Vigil. I agree, you look at it it's
20:41
Speaker 1: you have a pro Pro Bowl pass rusher tackle, Pro
20:45
Speaker 1: Bowl pass rusher at end and they've got seven and
20:48
Speaker 1: six sacks. You have number one cornerbacks as cover guys.
20:51
Speaker 1: Now one of them is injured. Slot corner dark questionnaire.
20:54
Speaker 1: That's hurt him as well. Yep. But with those components,
20:58
Speaker 1: a couple of Pro Bowl pass rushers, number one picks
21:00
Speaker 1: in the back end, that's the beginnings of a pretty
21:03
Speaker 1: good defense in today's NFL. Man in that in that
21:06
Speaker 1: intermediate area getting crushed, right, Yeah, that that's been a problem. Um.
21:11
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Dave that you say that about
21:14
Speaker 1: their corners, because it's a tough question for And you know,
21:18
Speaker 1: I've been around a long time and I don't I
21:19
Speaker 1: don't rip coaches ever, because they know their players better
21:22
Speaker 1: than I do. I just think about things and you know,
21:24
Speaker 1: try to extrapolate from what I see on tape. But
21:28
Speaker 1: you know, with the corners that they do have on
21:30
Speaker 1: the perimeter, and when de Nart is healthy, you would
21:32
Speaker 1: think that this team could play more man to man
21:34
Speaker 1: coverage and be comfortable. Obviously, they have a new coordinator
21:37
Speaker 1: this year, and it always takes a while for a
21:39
Speaker 1: new coordinator on either side to sort of feel through
21:42
Speaker 1: their talent to best deploy them and utilize them. But
21:45
Speaker 1: the issue you face, of course, is if you can't
21:48
Speaker 1: match up to tight ends in this league, it's very
21:50
Speaker 1: difficult to play a steady diet of man coverage age.
21:55
Speaker 1: Agree you look at it, they've gotten by or not
21:59
Speaker 1: by the thing they've done well. Takeaways. They have ten interceptions,
22:03
Speaker 1: you know, and they've got four defensive touchdowns. They have
22:06
Speaker 1: thirteen takeaways, ten picks, you know, amongst the top five
22:09
Speaker 1: in the league. That both of their safeties have three
22:12
Speaker 1: interceptions amongst the league leaders, but no interceptions at the
22:15
Speaker 1: cornerback position. Those guys that we're talking about. Do you
22:18
Speaker 1: think it's because of the soft coverage and not challenging
22:21
Speaker 1: people a little bit more? Well, first of all, I
22:24
Speaker 1: think that because of who they just played and how
22:26
Speaker 1: that game played out, that the numbers, the pure statistics
22:29
Speaker 1: are a little misleading. I'm not saying that you know
22:32
Speaker 1: that the takeaways aren't a good number, but obviously they
22:34
Speaker 1: had four interceptions in their last game and that you
22:37
Speaker 1: know that helped. Obviously, you know, interceptions to me are
22:42
Speaker 1: an odd thing. I've talked with a lot of coaches
22:45
Speaker 1: over the years about it about you know, corners that
22:48
Speaker 1: can play the ball very well. My guess is Drake Kirkpatrick,
22:52
Speaker 1: who I think is a very solid NFL corner. I'm
22:55
Speaker 1: not sure if he's great at the moment of truth,
22:57
Speaker 1: if that's the strength of his game is playing you know,
23:00
Speaker 1: is playing the ball with the hands to make interceptions.
23:03
Speaker 1: Although he clearly is a very good NFL corner. I
23:06
Speaker 1: think William Jackson can develop into a guy like that.
23:10
Speaker 1: You know, he's a very gifted guy. He's long, he's athletic,
23:13
Speaker 1: he can run, you know, you know. To me, their
23:15
Speaker 1: corner position is very, very solid. And again it comes
23:18
Speaker 1: down to what Austin wants to do ultimately in terms
23:21
Speaker 1: of how much man versus how much zone. But ultimately,
23:25
Speaker 1: you know how it is, Dave. Defensive coordinators are always
23:28
Speaker 1: going to do what they think is best not to
23:31
Speaker 1: give up big explosive plays, and ultimately that's the way
23:35
Speaker 1: they think. And if and if he feels that playing
23:37
Speaker 1: more zone, which is clearly their their foundation, is the
23:41
Speaker 1: best way not to give up big explosive plays, that's
23:44
Speaker 1: what he's going to do. And an interestingly, they gave
23:48
Speaker 1: up two massive ones in the last game a sixty
23:50
Speaker 1: yard or in a seventy two yard or rookie corner,
23:53
Speaker 1: Jesse Bates gets nosey and you know, William Jackson's playing
23:56
Speaker 1: outside technique. Yeah, Jesse's supposed to be there and he's not,
24:00
Speaker 1: and he's Sean Williams, right, And then Sean Williams bites,
24:03
Speaker 1: you know, on a sluggo and move the double move.
24:05
Speaker 1: He bites and everyone's runs by him. So it's like, man,
24:08
Speaker 1: you don't want to give up those one play drives,
24:10
Speaker 1: you know, no, no, and they're a little stuck. I mean,
24:12
Speaker 1: I think Sean Williams is a nice player, but he's
24:14
Speaker 1: a certain kind of safety. And then everybody knows this. Again,
24:17
Speaker 1: the tape tells you this. This is you know, I'm
24:19
Speaker 1: not making a judgment here. The physical skill set and
24:22
Speaker 1: the tape tell you this. He's essentially a line of
24:25
Speaker 1: scrimmage safety or a box safety, whatever term people want
24:28
Speaker 1: to use. So you're somewhat limited in what you can
24:31
Speaker 1: do with your safeties. Clearly, Bates came out of Wake
24:34
Speaker 1: Forest and he played deep safety there, so that's what
24:37
Speaker 1: he is. But they don't really have interchangeable safeties, which
24:41
Speaker 1: is what every team would ideally love to have great
24:44
Speaker 1: co Sell is our guest. You can and should watch
24:47
Speaker 1: him on weekends on the NFL Matchup show on ESPN.
24:50
Speaker 1: Let's turn to offense for a moment. The Bengals started
24:52
Speaker 1: the year with four tight ends, including a healthy Tyler Eiffort.
24:56
Speaker 1: Only one of those four guys played last week, c
24:58
Speaker 1: j Uzam, and he's dealing with shore shoulder. Yeah. How
25:01
Speaker 1: much does it diminish the Bengals attack when they can't
25:05
Speaker 1: use the two and three tight end packages that are
25:08
Speaker 1: so prevalent now in the NFL. Well, if you speak
25:11
Speaker 1: to any defensive coordinator, they'll tell you that one of
25:13
Speaker 1: the main things they look at when they study offenses
25:16
Speaker 1: are the personnel packages. And if you become a little
25:18
Speaker 1: limited in personnel packages, the options in your offense become
25:23
Speaker 1: a little limited. So I think it's it's really important.
25:26
Speaker 1: Although I do love the name Mason Shrek, I mean,
25:29
Speaker 1: you have to love that, but but you know, I think,
25:33
Speaker 1: you know, I think it limits them to some degree.
25:36
Speaker 1: I think Uzoma has played really well for them. I
25:39
Speaker 1: mean I think he's probably been somewhat of a revelation
25:41
Speaker 1: this year, and hopefully he can get back because when healthy,
25:44
Speaker 1: he's actually I think been a pretty meaningful part of
25:47
Speaker 1: their pass game. And they do detach them from the formation,
25:50
Speaker 1: they still run with him those one by three sets
25:53
Speaker 1: where the one is he's the single receiver to the boundary,
25:56
Speaker 1: which obviously Tyler Eiffert could do as well as anybody
25:59
Speaker 1: in the league, but he's he's been snake bid with
26:01
Speaker 1: his injuries, so and Croft could do that as well.
26:04
Speaker 1: He's a pretty athletic guy, so at least Uzoma gives
26:07
Speaker 1: them that, but it does hurt what they can do
26:10
Speaker 1: in terms of personnel variation and multiplicity. And you compound
26:15
Speaker 1: the fact that Giovanni Bernard has been absence, you have
26:18
Speaker 1: the Atlanta game, you know, and now here's a guy
26:20
Speaker 1: that not only can run a pick, can catch, he
26:23
Speaker 1: can work the middle of the field as running back
26:25
Speaker 1: out of the backfield, and you know your tight ends
26:27
Speaker 1: and Geo adds to it. It's it's a synergy. That's
26:30
Speaker 1: that's a tough one to overcome, isn't it kind of limited? Well,
26:34
Speaker 1: on the other issue too, you start to face this,
26:35
Speaker 1: does Joe Mixon end up with too many snaps? And
26:37
Speaker 1: I loved Joe Mixon coming out and I think he's
26:40
Speaker 1: become a very very good player. But you know, ultimately
26:43
Speaker 1: you get stuck because you want to win games. So
26:45
Speaker 1: for instance, when they come back from the bye and
26:47
Speaker 1: they play New Orleans and you think, hey, there's a
26:49
Speaker 1: game we have to win at home to really show
26:51
Speaker 1: that we're serious contenders, and you end up playing Joe
26:54
Speaker 1: Mixon probably fifteen twenty more snaps than you want to
26:56
Speaker 1: and that starts to add up over the season. How
27:00
Speaker 1: big a fan are you of Frank Pollock job he
27:04
Speaker 1: did down there in Dallas. I know he's a great
27:05
Speaker 1: personnel to work with, but I always thought that his
27:08
Speaker 1: techniques and the aggressive posture that that his lineman worked
27:12
Speaker 1: with what I envied it. And I think he's done
27:15
Speaker 1: a really good job up here at Bengals, aren't aren't
27:18
Speaker 1: you know? Blessed with tremendous personnel. They in the offensive
27:22
Speaker 1: line that is still work in progress there. Billy Price,
27:25
Speaker 1: you know, goes down early with an injury. How do
27:27
Speaker 1: you think Trey Hopkins has played and how do you
27:28
Speaker 1: think the offensive line has played as a whole, Well,
27:31
Speaker 1: you know, I think they've been very solid and Funny
27:33
Speaker 1: you mentioned Hopkins, I remember watching him at Texas. I
27:36
Speaker 1: believe he came from and I think he was a
27:38
Speaker 1: guard there and so obviously they moved him to center,
27:41
Speaker 1: and you know, I think he's held his own and
27:43
Speaker 1: I think the old line has been pretty solid. I
27:45
Speaker 1: think they've done a nice job too to help the
27:47
Speaker 1: old line. I mean, I remember watching the tape earlier
27:50
Speaker 1: this week, obviously that's fresh in my mind, and I
27:52
Speaker 1: thought they did a real nice job with play calling
27:54
Speaker 1: in the run game, Dave and he will really appreciate this,
27:57
Speaker 1: because it just seemed to me that that Ampa kept
28:00
Speaker 1: lining up in over fronts and they kept running weak
28:03
Speaker 1: and they kept running to the bubble and they did
28:05
Speaker 1: a really good job with that and had excellent success. Um,
28:09
Speaker 1: you know, doing that with some runs by mixing and
28:12
Speaker 1: you know, those kinds of things can really help your
28:14
Speaker 1: O line too. That kind of play called. People don't
28:16
Speaker 1: think about that in terms of fronts and those kinds
28:19
Speaker 1: of things, but that can really that kind of play
28:21
Speaker 1: call and can help your O line. You know, it's
28:24
Speaker 1: interesting the RPOs you know that have infiltrated the national
28:28
Speaker 1: football They had a few of those in this game.
28:29
Speaker 1: I remember, yeah, no question and yeah, and it's like
28:33
Speaker 1: people are, oh, man, the running game. You know, while
28:36
Speaker 1: you got a quarterback who has an RPO and if
28:38
Speaker 1: he feels like I might be able to get a
28:40
Speaker 1: five yard run, but I'm going to take this thirteen
28:42
Speaker 1: yard pass and he completes it, you can't really complain.
28:45
Speaker 1: But in a lot of cases, the run pass balance
28:48
Speaker 1: gets gets skewed, you know, because of all these RPOs.
28:51
Speaker 1: Very rarely now is that there's a play a player
28:54
Speaker 1: sent in and there's an RPO attachment to it, there's
28:57
Speaker 1: a pass attachment to it. Very rarely now, it seems
28:59
Speaker 1: to me that teams aren't just calling a run to play,
29:02
Speaker 1: you know, to run the football. It's like everything's got
29:05
Speaker 1: to pass attachment to it. Have you found it to
29:07
Speaker 1: be that different in the NFL. Well, it's a great
29:09
Speaker 1: point too, because sometimes the run pass balance can become
29:12
Speaker 1: skewed and people aren't aware of why it's skewed. I mean,
29:16
Speaker 1: you know, the play I remember from this week, which
29:18
Speaker 1: was great, was in the second quarter the boy twenty
29:20
Speaker 1: six yard reception was a really well executed RPO. And
29:24
Speaker 1: then you know they did a number of those, maybe
29:26
Speaker 1: they did three or four in the game. I can't remember. Exactly,
29:29
Speaker 1: but more and more teams are doing this, and if
29:31
Speaker 1: you get the reaction you want, it's usually from a
29:33
Speaker 1: second level defender. You're gonna throw the ball, and normally
29:36
Speaker 1: you do get the reaction you want and teams end
29:38
Speaker 1: up throwing it not handing it off. You know, when
29:41
Speaker 1: I look at Kansas City, Andy Reid has got the
29:45
Speaker 1: prototype offense. With the prototype you know, position players and
29:48
Speaker 1: quarterback to execute it. He'll do the RPO and then
29:51
Speaker 1: you run a screen at the end of it. It's
29:53
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna quarter I might hand the back, the
29:57
Speaker 1: quarterback might run it. He might throw a slant to
29:59
Speaker 1: the backside, he might throw screens of the strong side.
30:01
Speaker 1: It's like, holy mackerel, you can defend every scranch. So
30:04
Speaker 1: the football fields crazy. They're they're really difficult because they
30:09
Speaker 1: are really well schemed in so many ways and they
30:12
Speaker 1: have superior talent, so it's very difficult. You know, a
30:16
Speaker 1: lot of people might say, Whoa'll match up, you know,
30:18
Speaker 1: in this way, we'll take away some things schematically, but
30:21
Speaker 1: then the matchups are so difficult because they have four
30:25
Speaker 1: guys that are incredibly tough matchups in Kelsey Hill, Watkins
30:29
Speaker 1: and Hunt. I mean, it's easy to say, well, match up,
30:31
Speaker 1: but you have to have a pretty darn good man
30:34
Speaker 1: to man defenders to feel comfortable doing that. When you
30:38
Speaker 1: have Watkins, who is the fourth pick of the draft
30:40
Speaker 1: as your fourth option, you got yourself an offense many
30:44
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that you know it's and then look.
30:47
Speaker 1: Taking nothing away from Patrick Mahomes, I mean, the guy
30:49
Speaker 1: looks at guys a dynamic throwing talent, There's no question
30:52
Speaker 1: about that. But when I watch this offense, I am
30:55
Speaker 1: more fascinated by their scheming than just by the pure
30:58
Speaker 1: throwing of Mahomes, which, as I said, is deaf only impressive.
31:01
Speaker 1: I have a new goal in life. I want to
31:03
Speaker 1: hang out at a bar with you two guys. I'm
31:06
Speaker 1: just going to shut up and listen to you two
31:08
Speaker 1: guys talk football. It's great stuff. I love talking with
31:10
Speaker 1: coach co Sell the man. You know, I just love
31:15
Speaker 1: talking football. I mean, I sit here and study this
31:17
Speaker 1: all day long. It's nice to be able to talk
31:19
Speaker 1: about it. That's Greg coo Sell, who is one of
31:21
Speaker 1: my favorite guests, and in case you're wondering, is the
31:25
Speaker 1: nephew of the legendary broadcaster Howard co Sell. So that's
31:29
Speaker 1: what the tape tells us about the Bengals. Now time
31:32
Speaker 1: for a data driven approach. Sam Monson is an analyst
31:36
Speaker 1: for the website Pro Football Focus, where they grade every
31:39
Speaker 1: player on every play, and as we said earlier in
31:43
Speaker 1: the podcast, rookie safety Jesse Bates is currently the highest
31:47
Speaker 1: graded Bengal at his position. Updating the numbers, Bates currently
31:52
Speaker 1: ranks fifth among the ninety nine safeties who have seen
31:55
Speaker 1: at least one hundred defensive snaps this season. Here's Sam
31:59
Speaker 1: mon from PFF. Yeah, Jesse Bates has been fantastic this season.
32:04
Speaker 1: He's been doing things that we didn't really see coming.
32:07
Speaker 1: We didn't see this phenomenal year coming right off the bat.
32:12
Speaker 1: He's been excellent. You know, safety's typically it's a lot
32:16
Speaker 1: about the plays you don't give up more than it
32:19
Speaker 1: is the plays you make. You know, on the back end,
32:22
Speaker 1: it's the clue is in the position name. You know,
32:25
Speaker 1: it's safety. You're the guy that's supposed to make sure
32:28
Speaker 1: that at the very minimum, they don't score on the play.
32:31
Speaker 1: You've stopped the bad plays from happening, and Bates has
32:33
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of that. He's obviously got the
32:35
Speaker 1: three intersections there as well. He's got a pass break up.
32:39
Speaker 1: The passer rating of opponents strowing into his coverage is
32:43
Speaker 1: pretty absurd right now. It's twenty one, you know, by
32:46
Speaker 1: comparison to passer rating when Sean Williams has been targeted,
32:49
Speaker 1: there's one hundred and seventeen. So he's really been fantastic
32:53
Speaker 1: in coverage so far, and that's really helped that. Segondary, No,
32:57
Speaker 1: it's interesting with Jesse, young guy rookie took him the
33:01
Speaker 1: second round. Really liked them. Obviously, his ball skills and
33:04
Speaker 1: his ability to read things. You know, centerfielder in baseball
33:11
Speaker 1: run to a spot, the ball is going to be
33:12
Speaker 1: there kind of thing, has those type of instincts. But
33:14
Speaker 1: as every young player will do. In this last game,
33:17
Speaker 1: for example, you had to pick six where Jamis Winston
33:20
Speaker 1: never really even saw him, you know, and he Winston
33:23
Speaker 1: locked in his receiver and Jesse Bates pick six. But
33:26
Speaker 1: then he gave up the sixty yard touchdown pass to
33:28
Speaker 1: Jackson receiver Jackson. Will Jackson's playing outside technique and Jesse's
33:34
Speaker 1: supposed to be able to the top taking will Jackson away,
33:37
Speaker 1: and he gives up a sixty yard touchdown pass. So
33:39
Speaker 1: the young guy giveth the young guy take it the way.
33:41
Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of what you expect out of
33:43
Speaker 1: young safeties as they learn in the NFL. It is
33:47
Speaker 1: and I guess the only mitigating circumstances behind that big
33:50
Speaker 1: touchdown is that, you know, they change quarterbacks to that
33:53
Speaker 1: point on Jameis Winston had just been throwing those steam
33:56
Speaker 1: routes all day long, and then Ryan Fitzpatrick comes in
33:59
Speaker 1: the game, and they showed them the same look. They
34:01
Speaker 1: showed them that scene that they've been targeting all day,
34:04
Speaker 1: and instead it was a different quarterback. He didn't take debate,
34:07
Speaker 1: he didn't throw it there, and he went with the
34:09
Speaker 1: double move over the top and based just bid on
34:12
Speaker 1: the thing that he'd been seeing all day long from
34:14
Speaker 1: from Jameis Winston. So yeah, I mean, it's a mental
34:17
Speaker 1: er and it's a mistake that obviously he shouldn't have made.
34:19
Speaker 1: But I think it was smart play by the Bucks
34:23
Speaker 1: and by Ryan Fitzpatrick to kind of take advantage of
34:26
Speaker 1: something that had been actually biting them all day up
34:28
Speaker 1: until that point. Yeah, Jesse's you know, you're right though,
34:31
Speaker 1: that's his responsibility is he just ran. All he did
34:35
Speaker 1: was run a deep post. Jackson just took off a
34:37
Speaker 1: ran a deep post. The double move was Mike Evans.
34:40
Speaker 1: He ran the sluggo double move, and Sean Williams bid
34:42
Speaker 1: on that and he ran by him for a seventy
34:44
Speaker 1: two yard touchdown. So each safety got destroyed, you know,
34:48
Speaker 1: on a deep ball, like you say, you can't as
34:50
Speaker 1: a safety. You can't let the ball get behind, you
34:52
Speaker 1: can't get over your head, and each of them were
34:54
Speaker 1: guilty of that. But the good news is Jesse Bates,
34:57
Speaker 1: you know, had to pick six to kind of negate
34:59
Speaker 1: that and make a big play at the Defensively, those
35:02
Speaker 1: four defensive touchdowns, you know, lead the NFL. Those those
35:06
Speaker 1: big plays by the defense are a big factor in
35:09
Speaker 1: mitigating some of the some of the other problems the
35:11
Speaker 1: defenses haven't for sure. Yeah, And basically guy that was
35:14
Speaker 1: grading really well for us in college. His TFF college
35:18
Speaker 1: grades were excellent as well, So I guess it's a
35:22
Speaker 1: little bit of a surprise to see him hit the
35:23
Speaker 1: ground running so well. A lot of rookie safeties struggle imployment,
35:28
Speaker 1: they hit the NFL, but he's really made the seamless transition.
35:32
Speaker 1: Sam Hudson from Pro Football focuses our guest. You can
35:35
Speaker 1: follow him on Twitter at p f F Underscore Sam.
35:40
Speaker 1: Bengals linebackers are struggling and pass coverage Sam, How bad
35:44
Speaker 1: is the data? Yeah? And that's it's not a new trend, right.
35:49
Speaker 1: The Bengals linebackers have struggle for a while now. It's
35:52
Speaker 1: been the issue on that defense. They've been able to
35:55
Speaker 1: get impressive play from the guys up front. They've been
35:57
Speaker 1: able to find players in the secondary that done well
36:00
Speaker 1: over the years. It's that linebacker level where they've really
36:03
Speaker 1: been struggling. And as you say, in particular, it's coverage.
36:06
Speaker 1: This year, Nick vigil has got the best coverage grade
36:09
Speaker 1: of the group. But outside of that, the other three
36:12
Speaker 1: linebackers that have played significant snaps, Jordan Evans, Preston Brown
36:16
Speaker 1: already Nickerson, all of those guys have given up at
36:18
Speaker 1: least one touchdown so far. They're all giving up a
36:21
Speaker 1: passer rating above eighty four. Nickerson in particular has given
36:25
Speaker 1: up a pass rating one forty five, which is pretty horrendous.
36:30
Speaker 1: They're struggling. Those guys are getting beaten. When they're getting beaten,
36:33
Speaker 1: they're giving up significant yards. They're giving up significant yards
36:36
Speaker 1: after the catch, So it's not even as if they're
36:38
Speaker 1: able to just keep everything in front of them and
36:40
Speaker 1: limit the damage that way. Those guys are all giving
36:43
Speaker 1: up a significant amount of yards after the catch and
36:46
Speaker 1: a significant amount per reception. So that linebacker level for
36:50
Speaker 1: the Bengal continues to be a real problem in coverage.
36:53
Speaker 1: Do you think that teams need to take another look
36:56
Speaker 1: at how they how they construct their defense and that
36:59
Speaker 1: the angles an example of in today's NFL, with teams
37:02
Speaker 1: throwing the ball get pass rushers. They feel like they've
37:05
Speaker 1: got one in Geno Atkins obviously, another one in Carlos
37:07
Speaker 1: Dunlap six and seven sacks respectively. They have number one
37:11
Speaker 1: draft picks at corner. On the back end, they have
37:13
Speaker 1: dark ques Denar in the slot a number another number
37:16
Speaker 1: one that's injured right now, but they haven't really addressed
37:19
Speaker 1: at linebacker position. With very high draft picks and the
37:22
Speaker 1: way tight ends are in today's NFL and backs out
37:24
Speaker 1: of the backfield, I guess you maybe you have to
37:27
Speaker 1: rethink how early you addressed linebacker in drafts. Yeah, I
37:32
Speaker 1: think there's there's a bit of the league is in
37:35
Speaker 1: flux right now in terms of I correctly a assigning
37:39
Speaker 1: value to all these various different positions. You know, as
37:42
Speaker 1: long as the league keeps trending evermore towards passing and
37:46
Speaker 1: nothing else, it's shifted exactly how much he should value
37:49
Speaker 1: certain positions. So you know, a two down run stuff
37:53
Speaker 1: in linebacker used to be a valuable guy. He used
37:55
Speaker 1: to be important in your defense. Now those guys are
37:59
Speaker 1: entirely replaced, and they're really an afterthought with everything, and
38:02
Speaker 1: even three down linebackers, they're becoming less valuable than other
38:06
Speaker 1: positions and less you can find a guy that moves
38:09
Speaker 1: the needle and can be a sort of matchup nightmare
38:12
Speaker 1: on defense, the way some of these tight ends and
38:14
Speaker 1: running backs can be on offset. So do you think
38:16
Speaker 1: of guys like Luke Keikley or Dion Jones in Atlanta.
38:20
Speaker 1: Those guys are so good that they're able to move
38:21
Speaker 1: the needle in that direction. But if you're not that good,
38:24
Speaker 1: if you're just a reasonable every down linebacker, it's important,
38:29
Speaker 1: but it's not as important as a cornerback or even
38:32
Speaker 1: a number two or a number three quarterback. It's not
38:34
Speaker 1: as important as a pass rusher upfront, because the most
38:37
Speaker 1: important things are obviously stopping the pass and being able
38:40
Speaker 1: to pass yourself. And the components of stopping the pass are,
38:44
Speaker 1: you know, the back end coverage against those number one
38:47
Speaker 1: receivers and the pass rush up front, the client pressure quarterbacks.
38:51
Speaker 1: Linebackers are definitely important parts of the coverage. They're you know,
38:54
Speaker 1: they're they're going to be targeted significantly over the middle
38:58
Speaker 1: against tight ends and all that kind of thing. It
39:00
Speaker 1: just still takes a back seat to those other positions.
39:03
Speaker 1: So I think teams are struggling at the moment with
39:06
Speaker 1: this this kind of moving target of you know, how
39:10
Speaker 1: much to go after these linebackers and where to find
39:12
Speaker 1: a really good one. Do you think it will evolve
39:15
Speaker 1: to like safeties that can play in the box, and
39:19
Speaker 1: because teams like you canon with the Cardinals, he was
39:22
Speaker 1: a hot ticket there for a while. Oh man, there's
39:25
Speaker 1: a kid, you know that is tough enough to play
39:27
Speaker 1: against the run, but he gives them a really good
39:28
Speaker 1: option playing that weak side linebacker or that second backer
39:32
Speaker 1: in their in their nickel package, and he can hold
39:35
Speaker 1: up the run but gives them excellent coverage. I mean,
39:38
Speaker 1: do you think they're they'll gravitate toward the larger safety
39:42
Speaker 1: type guy that can hold up against the running game,
39:44
Speaker 1: because then teams will just you know, bunch up and
39:47
Speaker 1: run it down your throat if you can't. But do
39:49
Speaker 1: you think that that's the way it might go in
39:51
Speaker 1: an earlier sooner rather than later, I guess. I mean,
39:55
Speaker 1: I think they already have. It's just that those guys
39:57
Speaker 1: are termed linebackers all along that you know, you look
40:00
Speaker 1: the guy like Roquan Smith, the Bear's first round draft pick.
40:03
Speaker 1: He's six foot one, two hundred and thirty pounds. You
40:06
Speaker 1: know that's a safety. If you go back ten years,
40:08
Speaker 1: that guy's a strong safety. But now the way the
40:11
Speaker 1: game has gone, people have gotten smaller, they've gotten faster,
40:15
Speaker 1: and those guys are just brought up as linebackers all
40:17
Speaker 1: the way along. Now there's no there's none of this
40:20
Speaker 1: position switch that you would have happened when you know,
40:23
Speaker 1: say Thomas Davis back when he came out two thousand
40:25
Speaker 1: and four, I think he went from being a college
40:28
Speaker 1: strong safety to being an NFL linebacker, and that's kind
40:32
Speaker 1: of the same deal. I think there isn't a position switch,
40:34
Speaker 1: but I think the league has already made that adjustment,
40:37
Speaker 1: and I think they're still moving in that direction. It's
40:39
Speaker 1: not that you know, the six foot one, two hundred
40:41
Speaker 1: and thirty pound linebacker may not be the end. We
40:44
Speaker 1: may get down to the idea of a two hundred
40:47
Speaker 1: and ten pound linebacker until you know, until there is
40:50
Speaker 1: that threat of the other end of the other shoe
40:53
Speaker 1: dropping a thread of a team that just lows up
40:56
Speaker 1: with a couple of fullback from pounds the ball down
40:59
Speaker 1: your throat. Up until that point, you can still get
41:02
Speaker 1: smaller and faster and it's not having a detrimental effect
41:05
Speaker 1: if I give anything. The limiting factor on how small
41:08
Speaker 1: your linebackers can get is whether they're going to be
41:12
Speaker 1: able to match tight ends in the passing game, whether
41:15
Speaker 1: they can get small enough and still cover a guy
41:17
Speaker 1: that's six six and two hundred and fifty pounds, because
41:20
Speaker 1: that's what these lines, that's what these tight ends look like.
41:23
Speaker 1: So there's only smoke so small your linebackers can get
41:25
Speaker 1: before they're just too small to cover those guys. All right,
41:28
Speaker 1: thanks to Greg co Sell and Sam Monson. And that's
41:30
Speaker 1: going to do it for this episode of the podcast.
41:33
Speaker 1: If you haven't done so already, don't forget to subscribe
41:36
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41:40
Speaker 1: a minute. Please give it a rating or leave a comment.
41:43
Speaker 1: Your feedback is appreciated, and five star ratings help more
41:46
Speaker 1: Bengals fans find this podcast. I'm Dan Horde and thanks
41:50
Speaker 1: for listening to the Bengals Booth podcast