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Men's Mental Health: Why Men Struggle to Say I'm Not Okay with Marc Azoulay · RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to say I'm not okay because for a man that feels like failure.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: Psychotherapist Mark Azule joins us to discuss the unique challenges facing men's mental health and how to build emotional resilience.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: What were you taught as a young boy about crying and expressing your feelings?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, don't do it.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Recoverable.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Terry McGuire.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: Today we are discussing men's mental health and how psychological distress actually manifests from covert anger and workaholism to silent isolation.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: We're joined by therapist Mark Azule to unpack practical strategies for breaking through stigma, supporting the men in our lives, and building sustainable emotional resilience.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, Mark.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to be here.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Before we dive into the internet questions, I've got to ask one myself because every time we separate out a group, whether that's LGBTQ, BIPOC, men, women, we always get asked the question why is it important to talk about, in this case, men separately from mental health in general?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, men, even though of course we are a dominant force of power in the culture, in when it comes to therapy, we are extreme minority, uh, both in terms of people that use psychotherapy as well as providers.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's not a lot of male providers, not a lot of male clients.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Men are main perpetrators of domestic violence, you know.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Men are four and a half times more likely to have a substance use issue and seek higher levels of care to treatment.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: So men are struggling, right?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Men are men are suffering out there, and there's a massive mismatch between the psychotherapy industry and men, right?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: They're just not connecting at all.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll we'll dive more into that uh during the episode.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But men are not using therapy, and therapy is really not tuned to work with the male brain.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's really important to focus on it because there's a lot of guys out there that need a lot of help, and our industry needs to evolve and grow to be able to meet that need.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: Excellent.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: I look so forward to hearing more.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna start with a myth or fact lightning round.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: These are 10 questions that target widespread misconceptions around men's mental health.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: So, Mark, myth or fact.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: If a man is constantly short-tempered or angry, that means he is stressed, not depressed.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, that is a myth.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think most men uh kind of demonstrate their depression as irritability, anger, and isolation.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's really different than what you think of when you typically think of depression.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: You think of someone that is sad, right?
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or someone that can't get out of bed.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Most men lash out at others and they kind of create distance between themselves and the people that they love to isolate because I think they're protecting them, but really they're just hurting everybody around them.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: That makes it even harder to get the care you need if somebody doesn't recognize you need it.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: For sure, for sure.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: I use the metaphor of like, you know, the Hulk, right?
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in the Avengers movies, when the Hulk gets angry, they like pick him up in the helicopter and they drop in the desert so you can go smash a bunch of cactuses, right?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Until he calms down.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um it doesn't help him.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't help anybody.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of men feel that way.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: They feel like they we have to distance ourselves when we're feeling emotional because we don't want to hurt other people.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, that like you said, it just causes more damage, um, more isolation, and unfortunately for some guys, you know, fatal outcomes.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, myth or fact.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: Low testosterone, thyroid issues, and sleep apnea can directly cause symptoms of clinical depression in men.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: That that is fact.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is true.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there is there's an increasing body of evidence that are really backing up the um mind-body connection.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And especially the younger generations, you know, millennial generation, which I am and below, our testosterone is in the tank.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And scientists don't really know what's causing it.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people say, okay, maybe more sedentary, um, microplastics, uh, you know, latent radiation, who knows, right?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: But whatever it is, whatever the case is, is that our testosterone is in the tank.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: We have more obesity, we have more sleep apnea, and depression is highly correlated with that.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of guys that I that come to me for depression symptoms, the first thing I tell them to do is, hey, do a testosterone test.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because oftentimes the medical intervention isn't an antidepressant, it's actually a hormonal intervention.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that tends to get guys back on track.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's often gets misdiagnosed.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: And when you say testosterone is in the tank, you mean low.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: Myth or fact.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: Men who are severely struggling with suicidal thoughts usually show obvious signs of emotional breakdowns first.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a really interesting question.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would say yes with an asterisk.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, but I think our culture and people don't know what those signs are.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, they're showing signs, but maybe they're not so obvious.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So things that can that could be are things like um like overworking, actually, could be a sign of depression, which you wouldn't think so.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Can you think you think depression, you think like sad alone, not getting out of bed?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: But a guy that's really only working and then neglecting his other needs could be depressed, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody who is irritable or angry, which we mentioned before, right, could be a sign of depression.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a guy who gets super obsessed with a hobby, right?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Even like really retreating into video games, right?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or spending all the time in the in his garage, right, working on his car.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: You think, oh, this guy's interested in life, but actually he might be kind of slowly shutting down behind the scenes because he's becoming very monofocused.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So depression of men looks often looks like that monofocus.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like something where they are only really comfortable in a very narrow way of being, and they're unable to have flexibility, whether that's in relationships, whether that's in hobbies and activities or in health and fitness, they tend to really just like super focus because that's like the only thing they kind of have left.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Myth or fact, traditional talk therapy doesn't work for men as well as action-oriented or goal-focused therapies.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's a good one.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that is true.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the traditional talk therapy for most men feels really foreign and really weird and really threatening and ineffective.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, what a lot of guys get benefit out of is action-oriented, but I would say even more like experiential action therapy.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So things like nature or wilderness-based, where you're going on hikes with your clients, or experiential work where you're acting out your issues and having these big emotional reactions, like, you know, breaking a glass or screaming or things like that.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Stuff that's very embodied and visceral tends to work a lot well with men.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Very different than what happens in a lot of therapists' office.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if they're there.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Most therapist office are very calm and chill and just like soothing, uh, which is very counter to I think the way the male emotional system works.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Myth or fact.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_03: Using intense work or gym routines as a primary coping mechanism is a form of emotional avoidance.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Fact.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we were chatting about, right?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's like that monofocus.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, of course, these things are good.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like go to the gym, right?
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: But when it becomes the only outlet, it's like you're treating the symptoms, you're not treating the root cause.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, going to the gym is incredible.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Having a hobby is incredible.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I have tons of them.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's great to feel productive, to work with your hands.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: But when that's the only thing you're doing, uh, and not actually addressing what's really going on, it's only a band-aid.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Myth or fact, postpartum depression is purely biological.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: It only affects mothers, not new fathers.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: That is a myth.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So postpartum, yeah, like postpartum specifically means like post-birth.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And in women, there is a massive hormonal shift that happens.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that is really worth talking about and studying.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, with men, it's much more emotional.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are some studies that are emerging that showing that men's testosterone tends to downregulate post-birth, which is interesting.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you don't like kill your kid, really?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I think I think is what that is.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because some mammals actually do, right?
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some male mammals, like lions in in particular, will like kill their children uh out of competition.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like a downregulatory thing that happens with male testosterone.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: That being said, for a lot of guys, it's an emotional, it's grief, right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's losing a part of their identity and having to be uh put into a different one.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for guys that don't have emotional support, that can be really challenging.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Sleep deprivation doesn't help either.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't help either, right?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like getting thrown off of habits, getting thrown off of diet, you know, just like it's it can be a mess for a lot of guys.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: Myth or fact, having a group of activity partners, say for a golf, gym, or sports, protects men against the health risks of loneliness.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it's it's not a silver bullet, but definitely helps.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, our industry talks a lot about how, you know, men lack face-to-face connection.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's a bias, you know.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I think men, we do side-by-side connection, which is what this is of like, you know, you're not really talking about each other, you're just talking about golfing, you know, or talking about working out or talking about cars.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And like that is a more masculine way of connecting.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: We do feel connected to people that we share interest with, but you also need the face-to-face, you know.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the hope is that if you can start with the side by side, you can then over time transition to a face-to-face connection.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, gets to know the guy you've been playing golf with for 40 years, you know.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, myth or fact, needing psychiatric medication for anxiety or burnout means a guy lacked the mental toughness to fix it himself.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's a myth.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think a lot of guys feel that way.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think a lot of our like, you know, Western Americana cowboy culture uh says that you gotta do everything by yourself.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I'm from Colorado and I know a handful of cowboys and they don't do anything by themselves.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot of guys to herd cow, right?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're alone in the in the woods or in the desert, you're dead.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like being a lone cowboy is not a cool, it's not a good thing.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that being said, I I I do think that it's a stepping stone.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: It can get a guy's brain and body back into a place, but it does take behavioral change and deep emotional healing to really solve the problem, you know.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's, you know, but I'm sure you talk about stigma a lot on the show.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, a guy will take medication for something like diabetes, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, or cancer meds or heart medication or cholesterol medication, right?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Guys are super medicated, but when it comes to their brain, they they think it's something different.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: They think it's a personal failing rather than a biological or neurological issue.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not crazy.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't need meds.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: But it could be like, hey, your brain, it's like just like how your heart needs some help, your brain also needs some help.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: Myth or fact.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: Having two or three drinks every night to turn off your brain is a common form of self-medicating, hidden anxiety.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, yeah.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that's a fact.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is pretty common for men.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think substance use tends to be our number one way of masking deeper issues is by just changing our brain chemistry, whether that be through drinking, again, I'm from Colorado.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So smoking weed is super popular.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, even things like over-exercising or over overeating.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and our last one, myth or fact.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Chronic back pain, gut issues, and daily neck tension are often somatic responses to suppressed mental stress.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I'll say that would be a fact.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I think a lot of guys are gonna feel these issues more physically before they feel emotionally.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's just because a lot of men were not raised with emotional literacy.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we're gonna feel in our bodies first.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm a big proponent of the mind-body connection.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if your body's unhealthy, your mind is probably also unhealthy.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: How often does someone who's having those kinds of tensions in their body recognize that there's that connection or does is therapy required to get them there?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, very low percentage.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Very low percentage.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, guys, guys will come to therapy uh as a last resort.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So oftentimes if they're struggling with that, they will go to everything else, right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: They'll try the new gym routine, they'll get a personal trainer, they'll go to acupuncture, they'll go to massage, they'll buy a$2,000 Theragun, you know, they'll try everything.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then when when finally none of that works, they're like, okay, maybe, maybe there's something else going on here.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for most men, seeking emotional support and mental support is the last thing on their list.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I wish it wasn't.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: I wish they it would start there.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're working on it.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're working on it right here.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: Guaranteed.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: So those were the short answers.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: Now you get to get into some longer ones.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: For the top internet questions, we analyze search queries from Google, YouTube, Reddit, and TikTok.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: And most of the searches on men's mental health focused on unrecognized symptoms, like you said, anger, social isolation, which you mentioned, crisis signals, you said suicide, and actionable ways to start therapy.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the most frequently searched question is why is it so hard for men to say the words, I'm not okay?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: What I think about this question is that they are communicating it to you.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: They're just not saying it.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what I mean by that is, you know, mentioned a little bit in the myth or fact part is that I think if our culture and the people around men could learn to speak men's language, you would see that there's a lot of men that are not okay.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And examples of that include things like overworking.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: It can include irritability and anger, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Things that push people away that we talked about, right?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like snaps, jabs, wanting to isolate, saying I'm not feeling up to it.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: A guy that says I'm tired or exhausted.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's often how guys experience bad emotions is as um low energy, right?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a guy that's angry all the time, that every time you come home, you talk to him and he's talking about how, you know, his boss said this and his coworker did that, and this person cut him off in traffic.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And oh my God, everyone's an asshole, right?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like that guy's really struggling on some way, you know.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, substance use.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in the first lightning round you mentioned, you know, drinking every night, right?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Two or three drinks every night, somebody that can't go out and be with other people unless they are intoxicated in some way, shape, or form.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a guy who has really thrown himself into something like uh screens or video games or porn.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the list goes on.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's men are we communicate through our actions and our behavior.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: But to the question, it's really hard to say I'm not okay, because for a man, that feels like failure.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So many men, we have been raised, brought up through our parents, through, through media, through, through education, to be the provider, to be the rock of the family, to be, to, to, to do our duty, you know, to be this like important pillar in our lives.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if we say I'm not okay, a lot of men feel like one, no one's gonna help them because it's just them against the world.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the point of saying I'm not okay?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And two, if they're not okay, it means they're disappointing every single other person in their circle.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're letting down their their spouse, they're letting down their children, they're letting down their parents, they're letting down their team members, their coworkers, their gym mates.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like they've failed everybody if they're saying I'm not okay.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a lot of pressure.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of pressure, it's a lot of pressure.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if there's a guy you're not that struggling, it's like, look at his behavior, right?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's he's telling you.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's just not verbally telling you.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: It reminds me of parenting and saying, use your words.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: But that's not what's gonna happen.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what's gonna happen.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, going to therapy helps them to use their words.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's a skill that we're training, but initially a guy isn't gonna be telling you that that directly.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not gonna be about himself, it's often gonna be about everyone else in his life, right?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else is a problem.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you have that old adage, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: If everyone's an asshole, you're probably the asshole, right?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So there's it that kind of thing is often going on with a lot of men.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: Is that changing?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I think the younger generation, like Gen Z, they are way more emotionally intelligent.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: They have their own set of issues that we can certainly get into, but they they are almost walking on eggshells all the time.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're very emotionally intelligent and insightful and they can speak about what's going on for them, but they actually struggle acting.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of these young men like struggle, you know, approaching women in the world, for instance, right?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: They struggle putting themselves out there when it comes to a job interview.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: They struggle taking risks.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them have, in some ways, like given up.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're very cynical in some ways.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: They've given up before they've even started because they're either comparing themselves with all these crazy influences on social media, or they're very politically tuned in and they've, you know, lost faith in a lot of the institutions, uh, understandably, right?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: In America, in Western culture.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So these guys are like, they're very high EQ, but they have low action ability.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: What were you taught as a young boy about crying and expressing your feelings?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, don't do it.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Don't do it.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, it's things that you would get bullied for, you know, if you were expressing yourself, you were you were weak, you were, you were a problem, you know.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, it was something that was just completely discouraged.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: Did was it explicitly said to you, or is it what you just intuited from context?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it did a little bit of both.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, so I grew up in a rural area of uh Maryland, and there was quite a bit of bullying that would go on in our school.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was subject to sometimes.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they would bully kids that were uh weak, right?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: That they were perceived as weak.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So kids that were more emotional, kids that were slow, kids that were not athletic.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there was there was a lot of hierarchy in the school system uh that I went to.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, when you look at media and stuff that was popular, the the men that were respectable were not emotional, right?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even if you look at things like, you know, like the cowboys, right?
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Superheroes, uh, astronauts, uh veterans, right?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like military generals, right?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like all these all these characters were very one-note growing up.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So the man you wanted to be didn't cry.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: Myro Burrellman.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of that.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: So as a men's mental health therapist, what would have to change for it to feel as normal for a man to say, like, I'm really struggling, I'm not doing very well, as it is for them currently to say, I'm just tired or everybody's an asshole, to use your phrase.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where I kind of push back against a um psychotherapy industry, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I think the psychotherapy industry, being that it's female dominated, wants men to be, you know, cry more, right?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or like be more emotional or talk about things that that that we struggle with.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we just don't really see the world that way.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: We see emotions as issues and problems need to be fixed.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's particularly a problem, but we need to figure out how to communicate across genders, right?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: So as an example, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: When a man is feeling sad or feeling angry, the first thing is like, okay, this emotion is bad.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: I need to kill it so I can get back on track, right?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very hunter kind of way of thinking about the world, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: What I would propose is like seeing that emotion, honoring it, understanding it, connecting with it, seeing what it needs, solving that problem, and then getting back on track.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you're still getting back on track, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is still just to like get back to work, right?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: But so many men, when they try to kill that bad emotion, they're doing it through things like alcohol, drugs, dissociation, lashing out at people.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're not actually going deeper and solving what that core issue is.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'm saying to men out there is like solve your problems, like keep solving your problems, just solve your emotional problems as well as your logistical problems.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I talk to men about what an emotional man looks like, because what a lot of guys think of is they think of just being sat on the couch and like being a sack of shit, basically, right?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what we're trying to do.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: What we're trying to do is someone like Martin Luther King, for instance, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Who, or Winston Churchill, right, or even Julius Sieger, right?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: These are men that leverage their emotions to move mountains, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you watch or listen to any of their speeches, these are extremely emotional men.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: These are men that are you able to channel passion, able to channel grief, able able to channel frustration, anger, sadness, and turn it into a superpower, right?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Just through the the just through expression, you know?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's what I want to help men become is how do you leverage your emotions to get great things done and to be the hero that you, your family, your company, whoever you care about needs, right?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not just being kind of the sad person on the couch, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's what men are really afraid of being is being useless, basically.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to make sure that emotions are useful and they give you power, they give you energy, they give you initiative, that they give you the motivation to do great things in your life.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: So if the pressure to be the provider and the big strong male is part of what has caused this problem, I'll call it a problem.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Why is using a word like be the hero you can be not a bad thing to say?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's the thing, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: When we talk about how psychotherapy is failing men, when so much of the languaging, and if you check out our website, it's very different.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the languaging typically is, you know, you're suffering, you're struggling, you need healing, you need help.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like we said before, men don't want to admit that.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if that's their first message, they're not gonna seek any kind of treatment or any kind of support, right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because they have to first admit that they're broken and sad and weak, which is like not gonna happen, right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the way that I reframe it is like, get better at these things.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's more of a coaching model, frankly, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like, hey, get better at these things, be a hero because because men want to be a hero.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Men want to have legacy that's very important to us.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: We want to matter, you know, we want to be respected, we we want to be looked up to, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like men are extremely hierarchical.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to climb hierarchies.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is uh such a masculine way of looking at the world.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what if we shift the hierarchy instead of like, hey, get as much money as possible, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And be the stoic Marlboro man versus like be this Martin Luther King figure, right?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's the apex male, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: The apex male is like emotionally in tune, is a great dad, but also, yeah, as a provider, he's in shape.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: He takes care of himself and takes care of his home.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's great.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like we need more men like that, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So by framing it as a hero's journey, framing it as a growth process rather than a healing process, I think we're gonna attract a lot more men to this work.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen posters that say, like, check under the hood, um, you know, you need to tune up all the kinds of metaphors in terms of mental health being to you take care of your car.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Is does it have to be that uh judgmentally we'll use the word base?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh no, no.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I think that I mean, you know, men, I think we respond well to humor.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like some of that stuff, I mean, I know the organs you're talking about, and I do respect them.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it's very tongue-in-cheek, and I think for some men it helps to lower the barrier by being um by being funny, but I think for a lot of men, like it feels patronizing, frankly.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because men are more than just being into like cars and the gym and like barbecue, right?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, I I I love all those things, but there's other things I like too.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and I like those things, and I'm not a man.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Those aren't they don't have to be gendered, right?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, so I I I think when everything is just like that.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: It it it's it's like 50 years behind.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the modern man is way more nuanced and we need to make room for that guy instead of trying to go back to the 50s, right?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like men, masculinity, mental health, all this stuff needs to evolve beyond rather than just trying to like go back to something that didn't really exist to begin with.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't exist in the 50s, nobody was doing anything.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: So loneliness has been called the quiet crisis underneath the men's mental health conversation.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: Why is loneliness so common among men?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: And how does social isolation impact mental health?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to break this question into two parts, which are the loneliness and the social isolation.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're actually different.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the more common thing I see in in my practice is loneliness.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't mean they're alone.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of men are actually extremely connected, right?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: They they work in large companies, they have big families, they are part of part of social group.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're around people, they're part of a church, right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're around people, but they're deeply lonely.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is because they don't talk about anything, you know, they're not being honest and they're not being authentic.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: As men, especially in modern Western culture, we are taught to perform, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: We are extremely performative.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Women certainly have their own set of performative, but for this episode, we'll focus on men.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're taught to perform success, we're taught to perform strength, we're taught to perform, you know, stoicism, being always confident, never having a to ask a question, never having a problem, never being a liability.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like we are performing and we have this mask on us all the time, you know?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that mask gives a man a lot of pressure because we can never take it off, right?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: We we we feel like we always have to be competent and we always have to be performing the right thing at the right time for the right person.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's freaking exhausting.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and a lot of these things.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, back to your your question about the you know, the barbecue and the cars, right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: The the man box is is small.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotten bigger, but it's still small.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's interest that guys don't even want to talk about because they're embarrassed.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if a guy's into something like um sewing or or you know, pottery or uh, you know, all that dance, right?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or singing, right?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Those are beautiful things, awesome, you know, but like in certain male scenes, like you can't even talk about that, that type of thing.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes you even more alone.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't talk about your inner world, you can't talk about what you're really interested in, right?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: You can't really disagree because especially if you're lower on the hierarchy, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you disagree, you can get punished and pushed down.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you're kind of like incentivized to be like a yes man, a syncopat, in a way, right?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: So men have all these like barriers to connection that are just closing them off constantly.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which is why we can probably talk about later in more depth, is like why I love men's groups as like the best form of psychotherapy treatment for men.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because being I'm getting to it right now, yeah.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So like being in a group of other men where the goal is to be open and honest.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I use this word uh intentionally, right?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Psychotherapy as an industry, we see things like we say authentic and vulnerable.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Men don't give a shit about that, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that that's more feminine coded language.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: But when you say things are like being honest and courageous and saying the hard thing, that can resonate more with a man because again, it's seen as a challenge to overcome.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's seen as like, oh, if I can do that, I'm strong, right?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm emotionally strong, which is true, right?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a good thing to build.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you can be with other guys and the goal is to talk about your feelings and to be honest and to and to talk about what's going on, you get direction, it works really well for men.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, the male brain works in compartments, right?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas the the more feminine brain is much more fluid, it's much more adaptable, it's more agile.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: The male brain, we need boxes, you know.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the men's group box is the same as like if you go to a CrossFit box, right?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or your gym, where it's like, okay, in this hour I'm working out.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, in this hour, I'm working out my emotions.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like that really works well for dudes.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: And seeing other dudes that say, like, yeah, you know, me too.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: I also feel this thing going on with my wife.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, you know, I'm also struggling with being a dad.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, you know, I think I maybe drink too much.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like seeing other guys who they respect that can go through these things and get better is way, way, way more effective, in my opinion, than working with individual therapists.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's I think group is the way to do it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's peer support, right?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's peer support and it it lowers the stigma, it gets people talking about it, and it makes real connections with real people.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have male groups in therapy?
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: We we have like my company, we have five going on right now simultaneously.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's a big part of the way that men's therapy online works.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like our our kind of whole model is starting them an individual to, you know, heal their trauma, deal with their acute issue, but we quickly get them into groups because the groups and the community is what men need right now.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what do you see happen as an outcome there?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: They make real change.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like like I again, I think psychotherapy is beneficial for insight.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's good for understanding who you are, what your childhood was like, why you became who you are.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of men, they've never done that.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So doing that with a one-on-one guide, I think is is kind of the only way to do it and very valuable.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: But once you learn all that stuff, then it's like, what are you gonna do about it?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you now gonna be a better dad?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it now time to have the conversation with your wife?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is it time to really tackle this issue, whether it be drinking or or obesity or you know, this career move you want to make?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think being with other people, other men, makes that accountability um inherent, right?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because these other guys are holding you accountable, they're they're challenging you and saying, hey, you know, you said you're gonna talk to your wife last week, did you?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh they can be a little bit more direct than typical psychotherapists can be.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the insight is critical, you need that, but men respond much more to action and accountability.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: So the other half of that, the social isolation.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: So social isolation is its own separate problem, and we're seeing the effects of that in our culture every single day.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that specifically is radicalization, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: So men are being radicalized, you know, I'm not gonna get political, but on both sides of the spectrum, in all kinds of niche beliefs, whether it be conspiracy theories or religious fundamentalism, whatever it is, men are getting radicalized at a rapid rate because of social isolation, right?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: And because we can talk about technology, we can talk about social media, the algorithm, I'm sure people know.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, I'll skip through that and get to the core point, which is you know, historically, right, if men are in community, right, and they have been, but a lot of these community structures have been destroyed over the past just 30 years.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you look at things like, you know, churches are not as popular, right?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Fraternal organizations are basically dead, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh local sports teams are and and rec leagues are there but are in decline, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Things like, you know, uh bowling leagues or kickball leagues, like they're all all that stuff is declining right now.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Men are going more and more online, especially young men.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're online, you're fed stuff that you agree with.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it gets more and more extreme because that gives you more and more uh clicks to the algorithm, right?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you have these guys that are getting fed these extremist ideas from whatever, whatever angle they're they're they're getting it from.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And because they're not in community with other normal people, no one is checking them on those ideas.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the example I I bring up is that, you know, if you were if you were super racist and you want to join the KKK, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: You would have to be in a community where there's enough other people that were as hateful as you were to form a local chapter, right?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can be the only KK member, KKK member in your town.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can find the KKK online no matter where you go, right?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And no one's gonna check you.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: No one's gonna be like, hey, you know that that group of people with the white hoods, you probably shouldn't hang out with them.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're a bad group of people, right?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's no there's no social checks and balances anymore because that isolation has guys just tunnel into one thing, you know, and they're in a they're in a complete echo chamber around people that are agreeing, validating, and evolving these ideas that are just extremely destructive for mental health, right?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And again, we're talking about things like hate, bigotry, misogyny, all racism, all these things.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and those things, you know, they are way more accessible than they ever have been.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, there's no social checks where someone says, like, hey, you should probably stop, stop doing that.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not okay.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's so much, even though it's accessible, it's also very private, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can do from the privacy of your own home.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and there's no social consequences for um engaging in extremist behavior.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very uh validating.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's very validating, it feels very powerful.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: It plays to these ideas that you and I are talking about, being a hero, being exceptional, being different, being, you know, uh this kind of paragon man, but it just causes guys to keep going down these rabbit holes.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's a real, real problem.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, we're seeing a lot of that trickle out into our culture and cause a lot of the violence and instability and division uh today.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the primary thing that you hold accountable for the isolation as opposed to relationships with other people and the way they may or may not be showing up for those.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're relating to other people, right?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's other people outside of the screen, they're just not relating to the real people in their real life.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not having to engage in real conflict, right, or or or real messiness of a relationship.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're able to engage in this kind of fake simulated way, right?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it be through online platforms or things like AI or social media or video games, like like the relational skills are are not being reinforced and challenged.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: So men don't have them.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of, you know, instead of building them, which is what you can do therapy.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to do therapy, you can build those skills, right?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of building those skills, they're just kind of going for the path of least resistance and doubling down on these environments where they don't need to really connect, like really connect, right?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: So while you say that group therapy is a really effective tool for males, uh, you start with individual therapy.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: What do you see in your practice when someone actually says, like, this is really hard for me.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm failing at that.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm struggling.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you say, Yep, you know, that's common, or I hear that all the time.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: What's the reaction?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there's usually like a big exhale where they're like, okay, I'm not the only messed up person on planet Earth.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's like other people are are going through that.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: But but what you just said, like, that is how I talk to dudes, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I don't think most therapists speak that way, right?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like most therapists are saying, like, it's okay, just accept where you are, accept that you're not going to be able to do that thing, accept that, you know, maybe maybe it's okay that you're not a perfect dad.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's okay that, you know, you're struggling at your work and you're not gonna get right.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's more about like traditional therapy, the way it's taught is about like coping and about acceptance and about like kind of moving on, right?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Which weirdly with women works because once women can reduce that emotional barrier and reduce the self-hatred that they feel, they actually get better.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: They actually improve, right?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because so much of their issue is is in their own kind of self-judgment, right?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas a man, you got to be more direct, you gotta say, like, hey, you suck at this.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you're a bad dad.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're not always gonna be a bad dad, but you're a bad dad.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's help you now get better, you know, by directly calling out and naming what's going on.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: One, you're building respect because the guy is like, oh shit, okay.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, he's being honest with me, like he's he's real, you know.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you're not shaming, you're saying, like, and I'm gonna help you get better.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, now let's work step by step on the skills.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna come in every week, we're gonna fix this problem, like we're gonna make it happen.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: You see that a lot with um, or I see it a lot, I guess, with divorce, right?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Divorce is a big thing that brings guys into therapy.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what a lot of them want to do is they want to just shit talk their ex, you know?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think a lot of therapists will let them do that.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of therapists will be like, yeah, you know what?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: She didn't treat you right.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the word narcissist gets thrown around, the word borderline personality disorder gets thrown around.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like they'll just kind of agree and validate and just like, you know, emotionally support this person through a divorce.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at Men's Therapy Online, we're gonna say, like, you know, yeah, she certainly had her issues, but it takes two to tango.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what did you do?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, like maybe you're lacking some emotional skills, you know.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, maybe that affair, like maybe you could have done something else different about that, you know?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, maybe those anger outbursts that pushed her away that she ran away from.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's fix those.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so instead of just validating somebody, which I believe doesn't cause them to change, just makes them repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're gonna challenge that guy, be direct with love and compassion and respect, and help them grow to become a better version of themselves, which then will attract a better partner into their lives, you know.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_03: And are most people receptive to being challenged?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I've never I've been at therapy a lot of years, and I've never had someone say, like, hey, you suck at that.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say that guys that want to do the work are open to it.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and again, it's a very masculine way of talking about it.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can say it with a little bit of humor, you can say it with a little bit of um, you know, uh lightness, but it is being honest.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I have a whole talk that I do when when I when I speak at conferences of basically saying that in therapy, um, we're taught to build safety, right?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And men, especially Western white American men, we're the safest people in the world, right?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're super safe, but what we need to build is build respect.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And for men, the way that we kind of generate respect is through grounded challenge, you know, is through being held accountable, it's through being honest and straight with me, being a straight shooter, right?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is through helping me fix a problem that I couldn't do on my own, right?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Be like, damn, okay, this guy knows something about something, you know, being way more active as a psychotherapist.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's a little bit more like a coach, but with all of the, you know, knowledge and education of psychotherapy.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I think guys need a more dynamic form of the self-help thing that we're that we've been talking about, right?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the more passive, non-judgmental, validating, emotionally supportive thing doesn't work for dudes and they end up bouncing off of therapy.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: How can a friend or a partner encourage a man to go to therapy without making him feel broken or get defensive?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the same thing is like call him out, which again is like we would do that on the outside.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know, I know, counterintuitive, counterintuitive.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_03: Just doesn't always go so well.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't always go so well.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I've seen with men is they need to suffer.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm saying this as of I love being a man, male, male advocate here, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I think for men, we need a level of suffering in order to really make a change.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was saying before, uh, men's mental health treatment is the lowest on their list, right?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's the last thing they're gonna do.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna get a divorce before they go to therapy, right?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna like start drinking every single day before they go to therapy, right?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like therapy is the literally the last thing they're gonna do.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they might even kill themselves before they go to therapy, right?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's how low on the list it is, you know?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: So for a lot of men, what they need is that kind of again, hard, compassionate check of being like, I can see you're not okay.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: What are we together as a team gonna do about that?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, not you're broken, you got to fix this on your own, but like I love you, I'm concerned about you.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: How are we gonna fix this issue?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's therapy, maybe it's them talking more, maybe it's going to the gym together, who knows?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: But like knowing that you are aware, you're holding them accountable, but you're not abandoning them is important, you know.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: Is therapy as effective for a man if he is told or strongly encouraged to go as opposed to making that choice himself?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I would say it's starts less effective, but can become effective.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um therapy online, I'd say 40% of our new clients, uh, that's what brings them to therapy.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, my wife said I had to go or we're gonna get divorced.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's only 40%.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm actually surprised.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: I did.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: I thought it'd be like 80%.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think our marketing is as effective that we get guys earlier, but but you know it's a lot of them, right?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: But again, that got them to therapy.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, that's what I'm saying.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: It is like counterintuitively, like that is kind of it has to have real consequences.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and if we're talking about gender dynamics, right?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think a lot of women have been, you know, oppressed and have been told that they need to be caretakers all the time.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and in their in it comes from love, but in their idea of caretaking their men constantly, more often than not, it's enabling.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like if you find yourself, you know, if you're if you're a female listener, if you find yourself like lying for your man, if you find yourself picking up after his messes all the time, if you find him, if you find yourself like masking some of this behavior, if you find yourself like shutting down, closing off parts of you because you don't feel safe, right?
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: This guy needs help.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: This guy needs help.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you might too.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you need help, like, you know, maybe getting out of the situation, but also building up, you know, your sense of self to be able to challenge your man and not be in that enabling partnership.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because I I I see that so much, right?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, women that haven't done their version of the work get a lot of value from being the savior, being the caretaker, being the only one that he talks to, being the only one that that knows what he's really all about, being the only one that's there when he's sad.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: And like those aren't bad things, but you can't be the only one.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't be the only one.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: This guy needs other male friends, he needs a therapist, he needs to join a gym, he needs to broaden his network.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if if the if the caretaker can remove their identity from that and be willing to let other people into the system, then that guy can get some help.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Picking up his messes and like softening the blows actually is not helping.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, having real consequences usually will shake a man out of his um stupor in a way and make change.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: This podcast is a production of recovery.com.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Getting help for an addiction or mental health concern is one of the best decisions you will ever make.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: But once you make that decision, it can be tough to know what to do next.
• 39:47
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• 39:49
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• 39:55
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• 40:06
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• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: Your recovery starts today.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about this idea of isolation, you know, um, where because men don't have people that are checking in on them because they're not getting like a real view of the world, you know, um, especially these men.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you think of like, you know, uh make a straw man over here, the stereotypical kind of like asshole dude who's very boisterous, bulldozy, kind of no one wants to be around, but also everyone's like a little bit afraid of, or at the very least, doesn't want to deal with him.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's not getting an accurate view of the world, right?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's just plowing through the world like a bull in the china shop, but nobody is saying, like, hey, dude, like something's wrong.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's going on?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: You need to like figure out your shit.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's what that guy needs.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: He needs a check, right?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: He needs to be alpha in a way, right?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: He needs to like have someone be like, oh, like check him so he can actually see clearly.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: But if he's living in this weird isolation echo chamber where like he's a victim and everyone else is is a dick and he's just like trying his best, right?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't do anything, he's not gonna move, right?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: He's he's not going to um make any change, and that can often end up in suicide of just like giving up.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a little repetitive, but of course, the people who are asking these questions don't know what somebody else asked.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_03: So this is men feel like they're expected to handle things themselves.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: When does self-reliance stop being a strength and start hurting someone?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well when you can't turn it off, you know?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do think, you know, I don't want to pathologize that, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think being self-reliant, I think being dependable, I think being strong, I think like having mastery over a certain thing is all great.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're really good masculine things, but the problem is that many men can't turn it off and they feel imprisoned by that.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: They feel like they have to be reliant or self-reliant in every single aspect of their life, you know?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: They feel like they have to have the answer to every single question that could ever be asked.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: They feel that they have to be a master at every single skill.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways, our our culture expects that.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you look at, you know, some of these paragon males, especially on things like social media, you have the guy who's like super jacked.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: He's always there for his kids.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: He also has like these crazy sports cars, he's also traveling over everywhere to Europe.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: He also has like a business that's saving children, you know, like he's he's he's everything, right?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: He's like James Bond, right?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: He can like speak every language, you know, talk to anybody, do anything.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's he's everything to everybody.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's just not what reality is.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think a lot of men feel like they have to be that.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and because that's impossible, they're gonna become mentally ill, you know?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna drive you crazy because it it's impossible to be everything to everybody.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk to parents for a second who are raising males.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: What can be done from the beginning that would lead to a different end result?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the number one thing is is for the male parents, for the dad, right?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: So studies show this.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Richard Reeves' books of boys and men is a really great breakdown of this.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I recommend listeners check that out.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it basically studies you know having a present father versus an absent father.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a really clear thing you can study in psychology.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the results are like devastating if their father is not present, right?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they're physically not present or what we're seeing more is emotionally not present.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: So what emotional presence means for a child, especially for a young boy, is the dad modeling this kind of emotional range that we've been talking about, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: But modeling it with with control, right?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a difference of like getting angry as a dad and like breaking your coffee cup, right?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you're expressing an emotion, right?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not a healthy way to express an emotion, right?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's one thing to say, like, hey, I'm angry, I'm frustrated, or I'm fighting with your mom right now, but I still love her and I still love you, and we're gonna handle it.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: Again, just the way I said that, that comes from strength.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're expressing emotions from a place of strength and groundedness, but you're still expressing them.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: And self control.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and control, right?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or just saying, like, hey, you know, I'm a little sad right now.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: I had a tough day at work.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, again, you know, junior, like, I love you, but I can't play ball with you right now.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna play tomorrow, right?
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're you're you're giving them the emotional literacy.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: By modeling it versus where I think a lot of guys either, right, on either in a spectrum, either that kind of like very emotional but out of control man, or the stoic, like, I'm fine, everything's good, whatever you need, I'm there for you, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're like super provider.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas like in the middle, where the male parent is is modeling that relationship with their emotions, right?
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not being controlled by them, but also not suppressing them, being in a relationship with them is how you start to get men to be like, okay, or boys to be like, wow, okay, I guess I can have emotions.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's important, right?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that we see, especially with uh with young boys, is rewarding effort, not outcome.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, huge, huge.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a big part of modern parenting research, right?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you know, if your kid, you know, uh gets straight A's, right?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can praise him, say, hey, that straight A's, that's awesome, but really focus on, hey, I I saw you over the past semester, you were really studying really hard.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that time that you wanted to play video games, but you had that big test in math and you decided that you were going to study instead of playing games.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I saw that you really spent that extra time talking with your um, you know, English professor and English teacher about that book you didn't really understand.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you got the good grade on the final test, like pointing to the the efforts that the child made and specific examples, if you can, right?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And rewarding those, right?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because then that that teaches the man one, you know, study skills and and things like discipline and willpower, which are important, right?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: But also connects it with the what counts is showing up and doing it, not the end goal.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And similarly, if they fail, right, you can you can say, hey, here's some good things you did, and here's some things you could do to improve.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you're focusing on the process, not on the outcome.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Which is helping guys disconnect their value from their performance.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because what I see with a lot of dudes um is that we we tie our identity and our mental health to our performance.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's often completely disconnected from the effort that we put in.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Good, bad, or ugly, right?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: Where we're just like, did we get it or not?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so binary and it's so fragile, you know?
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't, in my opinion, build those masculine uh virtues of you know, discipline and and perseverance and reliability, right?
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: It just builds like get to the end no matter what.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: So you see a lot of guys that end up like either cheating or procrastinating or or whatever because they just want that outcome, you know.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so in order to get a man that is kind of more in tune with himself, more in tune with with what's going on, it's like focus on those little moments instead of just that big moment right there at the end.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: So that sounds really healthy and like it would make a huge difference to a child being raised that way.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_03: What if a somebody watching is a parent and their kids already, or their son will say, is already in middle school or high school, what can still be done that will move the needle so that that young man can grow up to be a more balanced older man?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: So so two things for teenagers, um, I mean there's a lot more, but two that I really focused on in what we do.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the one is go into their world, you know, and I think that's really hard for modern parents for some reason, especially I think like Gen Xers and boomers.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, if your kid is really into a video game, really into Fortnite or Minecraft or Call of Duty or whatever, like play the game with the kid, you know, and I and there are so many parents I talk to like I would never, yeah, I would never do that.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or if your kid's into like, you know, Pokemon cards, or if your kid's into um some craft, I know, like cosplay dressing up as like anime characters and things is like very popular right now.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, do that with your kid.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like have your kid make you a costume, or even sit down and help your kid work on part of their costume, right?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Or like if their kid's really into some type of media, like go to a convention with them, like go into their world because kids, teenagers need to feel like you're interested in them.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And for teenagers, their interests are their identity because they don't have an identity in the same way that adults do.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're building it, right?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're in the process of building their identity.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So right now it's their interest.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're, you know, shitting on their interests, or if you're refusing to engage with them, or if you are judging their interests, you're judging their identity.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're telling them that they have bad taste or they're not worthy, or what they're into is is dumb or childish, right?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: But like they're children.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: So of course what they're into is dumb and childish, you know?
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: So like go into their world and and be okay with them being in control.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really hard thing for parents to do because understandably, when you've raised a kid, you've been in control.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: You you've been higher in the hierarchy than them, right?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's your job as a parent.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: But as they become teenagers, they need to have experiences within a safe place, which should be that you, the parent, to be able to have that power, right?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if they play a video game with you and you feel like you don't know how to do it and you're bad at it, like great, let them teach you.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, let them teach you something that they're interested in.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a big one.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because I see a lot of parents are trying to constantly pull their kids into the world of adults.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they never go back into the world of children with them or they stop, right?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: They used to play with their kids when they were little, but then when they become teenagers for whatever reason, they're like, I'm not interested in your stuff anymore.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: But if you let your kid take you into their world, they will come into your world more.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a more give and take that way.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's a big one.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: The other one is tell stories when you were a teenager and especially when you messed up, right?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because so many teenagers have this feeling of like, am I the only one?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and especially teenager boys, right?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was saying before, men are extremely hierarchical, right?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: We see the world in hierarchies.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's, you know, maybe by biological the way the research is going, right?
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: But certainly um in our culture, right?
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: So as a teenager boy, you're coming online to that way of thinking and you're realizing you're the bottom of the hierarchy in everything.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're bad at everything.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a pro basketball player, you don't have a job, you don't have a girlfriend, right?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're the bottom of everything.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: So a teenager boy will feel like, oh my God, does anyone else feel like this?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And does has my parents have they ever struggled?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, they're seeing you higher on the hierarchy.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're seeing you after you've gone through stuff, after you've built a career, after you've built some level of stability.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can get down with your kid and say, like, hey, there was a time when I was like you and I didn't know what the hell was going on.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the time I tried to kiss a girl and got a cup of water thrown in my face.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: And here's a time I crashed my dad's car, and that was really embarrassing, right?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like having that humility and again mirroring the emotions of a teenager as best as you can remember to be like, yeah, I remember when I was like impulsive, and I remember when I didn't make good decisions and like, you know, I'm look where I am now and I still love you, right?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're just you're just bridging that gap.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the main thing with teenagers, is like try to bridge the gap as much as possible.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: So that's from the parents' perspective.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: What about from the teens now?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: If a parent is able to do those two things and others, what effect will that have?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it I think it makes the teen less in their own head, right?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: It makes them feel more connected.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, another thing that parents can do that will benefit the teen is like as a parent, your job, especially for teenagers, is to vet the adults around the teen and bring in good adults, as many good adults as you can find.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, you cannot overdo this.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: As many good adults as possible into that teen's life.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we're talking about coaches, teachers, mentors, camp counselors, but like people that can be in that mentor relationship for the teen.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that teen is not only getting the parenting from you, they're getting little doses of parenting from all these other good adults.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that can cover your blind spots, you know?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because your kid, you know, everyone's flawed, you know?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you might have an issue, you might have a blind spot, but hopefully a couple of these other coaches and mentors can cover that up, you know, and like give your king your teen a different experience.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that teen grows up with a more holistic view of the world.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: It grows up with a much more nuanced view of the world, a much more view that embraces things like diversity and difference, and they can be in a relationship with someone they don't fully agree with, but they can still talk with them, you know, like that kind of the more diversity of experience you can bring into their life, um, the more kind of psychologically robust and resilient uh they're gonna be.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last point I'll make, you know, back to the point of groups, is if there are spaces that are just teens, and again, if you've vetted them to be healthy and safe, put them in those places too, where they're talking to their peers in a in a good way.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that be through something like therapy, but more often than not, it's usually like an after-school program or something like that or a sports team, but letting them have their own space as well to start to talk about their issues in the way that they do.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I think a lot of parents, as more so millennial parents, right?
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're more like hover parents.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: We want to always be with our kid and we want to always be in control in some way and always be monitoring everything.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's difficult for millennial parents to separate from their child.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: So the idea is like let your kids separate because that's also an important part.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: They need to figure out their life and and their mistakes and their emotions on their own, too.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: So obviously we would want to keep them safe while they're separating.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: And you use the word vetting.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: How as a parent would one vet uh other adults and other kids who are in a group or something?
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: Shouldn't say kids, teens.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: Teens.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think a lot of it is like a gut check, you know?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think a lot of it's just checking the vibe of that person.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think, uh, especially when it comes to other adults, being really explicit about what you're wanting from them.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: So being like, hey, I'm trusting you to kind of raise my kid a little bit.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: Not entirely, right?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm the parent, but like I really care about Junior over here.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like I really want to make sure that he's in a good place.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like being the more overt is a whole nother kind of therapy conversation, but the more overt you can be about your expectations, people tend to respond to those.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you see that when you ask them that, they get all weird and like freaked out, like, okay, maybe that's not the not the best person.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when it comes to kids, you know, back to the idea of like joining the kids' world, like their interests, right, or what they wear or what they dress is like not important at all.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I think a lot of parents are gonna look at that and judge a kid based on judge a book based on his cover, right?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Versus like, hey, how about you sit down and talk to your kid's friends?
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, most teams actually, contrary to popular opinion, most teens want to talk to adults, right?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: They just don't want to be judged by adults.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes when they talk to adults, they feel judged and they feel pressured, right?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's either like, oh, you know, why do you wear your pants like that?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or what are you gonna be when you grow up?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Those questions suck for a teen because they don't have an answer for either of them, you know?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're like, hey, what are you into?
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you like?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, let's do that.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: You you and my kid are great friends.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you guys do together?
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, just being like open, compassionate, curious, like you'll be able to see that a teen is a good person, right?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: Again, what they look like, what they're into, what music they listen to, what TV shows they watch is like extremely secondary.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like, hey, is this a good person?
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is a good person that that my kid could be around.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_03: Another uh highly searched question on the internet.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_03: How does someone know if they're experiencing normal work stress or high functioning anxiety?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like work should be stressful, right?
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: But the stress should encourage you to do better, I think, especially as a man, right?
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's a there's a certain level, it's like a little band of stress that you're trying to aim for, right?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because if stuff is too stressful, it just crushes you.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's not stressful enough, I think because humans and then at the end the human animal is like lazy, we're gonna just like coast.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it needs to be like a right level of stress.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: So kind of a gut check would be like, is the stress motivating you?
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is it actually challenging you?
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you're growing?
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you also have time for your life, right?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond work.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or is it just crushing you or or having you coast?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also thinking about the physical things.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: I know uh how stress can affect sleep, how it can affect the way your stomach and gut feel.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: Are those things that somebody should be watching for?
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, 100%.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if it starts like bleeding, we I talk a lot about kind of like if your work stress is bleeding into your life, then that's a problem.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you notice yourself that you're like, you know, shorter with your family, if you're lashing out at people, if you're disengaging from, you know, family activities, that's probably a problem.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean again, I'm from Colorado, so we're very much like, you know, work to live, not live to work.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: So again, it's very cultural.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I paused in the beginning of that question.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: But from the culture that I'm in, like your work should be serving your life, not the other way around.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas in other cultures, it's it's very different, right?
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: That are much more, I came from the East Coast.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's much more like status, right?
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like, okay, the your goal in life is to have the most impact your job as possible, right?
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Also fine, but make sure you have the support structures necessary so that doesn't bleed into your the rest of your life.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't start to affect your sleep and your family and your relationships.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: We talked a little about a partner enabling someone who is struggling, but how can a partner, friend, or family member support a man who's struggling without pushing him away?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked a little bit about like, yeah, like challenging that man.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think in some ways, again, I think men see healthy challenge as support.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, one thing that I talk about in some of the talks that I give, and again, I think it's why psychotherapy is behind in some ways, is that we find that that women, feminine individuals, right, they grow through relationship, which is what therapy is, right?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're in a relationship with somebody, right?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because of that, the strength of that relationship, the intimacy, the bond, uh usually someone that's more feminine will grow just because they're connected to somebody, which is pretty cool.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like really cool and and it's and it's it's way, it's what the industry is kind of built on is building these relationships, right?
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: Men grow through challenges, right?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: Their relationship is secondary to the challenge.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you've been in a relationship with a man, you probably feel that sometimes where it's like having you there is not as important as getting the thing done.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not that there's a problem there, it's that our industry needs to adapt to that when it comes to working with men, right?
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: So by offering a challenge first and then doing the challenge together, second, right, you can help a man to grow.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can help a man to feel supported.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: So again, that's the idea of like, you know, fitness is always a great metaphor for dudes.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, okay, you want to get into shape, let's go to the gym together.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the goal is like not to hang out at the gym.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is like get in shape, but we're doing it together.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: That if that makes sense, right?
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna help you, I'm gonna coach you, we're gonna do the workout, we're gonna make the systems, we're gonna make the spreadsheets, do all the man stuff, right?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: But there's gonna be someone else there with you.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think psychotherapy can be the same idea where you are doing things together, but really the goal is about overcoming challenges.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and for those people in their lives, if you can help a man overcome a real challenge he has in his life, if you can be useful to him, right, he will trust you more and respect you more and let you in more.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: That stuff happens first.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, can this person help me very tangibly, very logistically, practically help me get better at this thing?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I will trust them.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas again, I think for more women, it's the other way around.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like they need the trust and the connection and the bond first, and then they will introduce a challenge to be like, okay, now I feel safe enough to talk about this thing I'm struggling with.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: Can this person help me?
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: With men, it's the complete opposite.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Help them first, and then you get the intimacy.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_03: Last question.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: What's one thing you would tell a 21-year-old guy who is struggling with his mental health right now and thinks that nobody would understand?
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't give up.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Really, don't give up.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I see that so much, especially with 21, 21, 25, but I see a lot of guys, uh, especially that spend a lot of time online, that are really struggling, that are really smart, they're really plugged in, especially like politically and economically, and they're looking at the world and they're like, what is the point?
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: What is the point of getting a job?
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: What's the point of getting an education?
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: What is the point of doing all this stuff when there's there are real things, right?
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, capitalism sucks for a lot of guys, right?
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's not that much upward mobility.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_00: Things like AI or climate change seem to be real existential threats.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I see these young guys that are so educated on everything that's happening with the climate or with AI or with the war or with whatever's going on, and they feel completely paralyzed and they feel like, why should I even try to grow up?
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why should I even participate in the system that just from their perspective seems like evil and corrupt and and broken and you know, ruthless.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and I get it.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: Shit.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, if if I was honestly, some of them when they tell me something, I'm like, damn, I know that was true.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if that's true, what am I doing?
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like they make good points.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: They make good points.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: But what I want to tell them is like, don't give up and you can build the reality and the little utopia that you want.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's just on a smaller scale.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's in your relationships, it's in your family, it's working for community organization, it's like getting involved at like the grassroots level.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is how you will feel more fulfilled and how you will start to tackle some of these problems that you're very passionate about, but it's not this grand thing, you know.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I think to the uh, you know, my generation of millennials, right?
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like we were raised to follow our dreams, which is a great thing, but messed up a lot of us, right?
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because the the bar was so high, right?
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: We were told that, like, okay, you have to like cure cancer or solve hunger in Africa or, you know, be a great doctor.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember me, I mean, I was super entitled.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for me, and I think a lot of millennial men, we thought that like having the white picket fence and the two and a half kids and like the suburban life was like a failure.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: That was a failure state.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: Was to have like a stable life.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: And now, how many of us would kill for that life?
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just like some level of stability, you know?
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of these young guys are feeling that where they have to do something great or they better off just do nothing at all.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's you can't live that way, you know.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if you're young, like and you're struggling, like, don't give up.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can build the skills, you can find those people.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: If your family wasn't those people, and maybe that they weren't, like there's people, you know, people like me, like men's therapy online, there's podcasts, there's tons of people online, there's tons of organizations that are free or low cost, there's tons of ways that you can find healthy adults to bring into your life to get some hope back.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I see with a lot of these young guys, it's like a real lack of hope.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that scares me, frankly.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: It really does, it really does.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, lack of hope and and like cynicism in its place.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it's easy to see how they get there.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it makes sense.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're not dumb.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like it makes sense.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_00: I just that's why I think there is almost like a um a spiritual component almost where it's like having hope in a better future or having faith in a better future.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need God to do that, right?
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just like knowing that like life can get better.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: It takes work, but it can get better.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of guys don't don't have that right now, unfortunately.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_03: Very so you mentioned your website.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_03: If someone wants to learn more about you and the work you do in men's mental health, where can they go?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so check us out.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're um the company's called Men's Therapy Online, and the website is men's therapy.online.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: So very direct.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you Google Men's Therapy Online, we we come up.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if you want to work with us, all that stuff is there.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: We have like individual, we have group, we have couples, um, we have a book club, we do in-person hikes, we do a camping trip.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: So we do more stuff than just traditional uh psychotherapy.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for guys out there that don't want to work with us right away, we have a ton of resources.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we have like a content library that has like over 200 blogs, you know, some written by me, some written by my staff, a lot written by guest authors.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we have podcasts.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a podcast for over four years, um, men's therapy podcast, check that out.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have a bunch of free online courses.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like a lot of stuff.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're trying to like democratize this and make this mental health education and and treatment accessible uh to people in as many ways as possible, right?
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: And again, to like have it resonate with our male listeners, uh, which is different, you know, than the typical uh industry.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: So all it is check us out.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're mensherapy.online.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate your time and I appreciate all the information you just shared with us.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, having to come on the show.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was fun.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: Excellent.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we will be back next week and invite you to join us.