Latest / My Favorite Things / My Favorite Things Episode 12: Jonathan Ellsworth

Transcript

My Favorite Things Episode 12: Jonathan Ellsworth · My Favorite Things

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Jonathan Ellsworth, thanks for being here.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be here, Brendan.
• 0:04
  And I think it's great that we start this conversation with me
• 0:09
  actually being
• 0:09
  pretty mad at you because you rejected my attempts to talk
• 0:16
  about more than five of
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: my favorite things.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so happy to be talking with you, but I am pretty upset right now.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is episode 12,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: and so far,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I got to say,
• 0:27
  you were the most high-maintenance guest we've had so far on
• 0:30
  this podcast,
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: which I didn't expect.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I love so much the concept for this podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: It has been sheer torture.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even kidding.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You refuse to honor it.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's impossible.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so it's a great concept and conceit.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's also impossible.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you now know I'm not exaggerating,
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: given the last 45 minutes of negotiation we just had,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: that this has been torture for me for months,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: trying to whittle this down.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for the torture.
• 1:09
  Well,
• 1:09
  yeah,
• 1:10
  thank you for the self-flagellation that has gotten us to this
• 1:13
  point.
• 1:15
  Can you,
• 1:16
  now that you've aired your grievances,
• 1:21
  can you tell us a little bit about who you are?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So for the last 15 years,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: we just turned 15,
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have been the owner and,
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: operator,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: the person behind a company called Blister.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that has been a fairly significant development in my life.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, eats up
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: most of my waking time.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, Blister, we're an outdoor media company.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Some folks might remember you and me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: co-hosting a running podcast that I was very fond of.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was always fun.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: at Blister,
• 2:09
  we do these very in-depth gear reviews of a bunch of different
• 2:12
  outdoor sports
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: equipment.
• 2:15
  Development in the last five years,
• 2:17
  we've created this Blister Plus program that...
• 2:21
  unfortunately we're really proud of because we're seeing how
• 2:25
  many people who love
• 2:27
  the outdoor sports how many those of those folks it really
• 2:31
  helps um it's a it's an
• 2:33
  insurance coverage for uh that's activities based so somebody
• 2:38
  gets hurt trail
• 2:39
  running or skiing or snowboarding or mountain biking or bike
• 2:42
  commuting or surfing
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: now whatever um it
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: really helps cover the fact that at least in America,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: we're dealing with increasingly terrible health insurance.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we've seen this help hundreds and hundreds of people.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I've gotten...
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: more and more passionate about it,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: which I realize doesn't make me the coolest person at the dinner party,
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 3:08
  But it's like,
• 3:09
  well,
• 3:09
  but we're actually- Because this is all you talk about?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's that's the- Here's my card.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what's your deductible?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, how are you doing?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to meet you.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: What's your deductible?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you not know?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like shaking the person by the lapels.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we're pretty invested in that.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then we do a bunch of different podcasts and that type of thing.
• 3:30
  yeah yeah it's i i remember when we met in 2013 or 14 14 early
• 3:37
  2014 yeah and i had
• 3:40
  never heard of blister and uh we you and i sat and chatted for
• 3:43
  like an hour yeah
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: retailer show i remember it the rest is history yeah um
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Should we get into your list?
• 3:53
  I was going to say there's a whole backstory on how you got to
• 3:57
  where you are,
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: but I think we'll get into it as we go through your items here.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just hope you get a bunch of emails from people being like,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want the editor's cut,
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: what would have been the three and a half hour long conversation.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you're listening to this,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Just please do that anyway, whether you actually feel that way or not.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm telling you, this was some torture on my end.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 4:25
  maybe we'll just put your Google Doc uplink to your Google Doc
• 4:29
  of all the stuff you
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: couldn't talk about on here.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, number one.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Number one.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Where are you when you encounter this book and how old are you?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: so I grew up in Chicago,
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: and probably if people know me best from Blister,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: that might come as a bit of a surprise,
• 4:53
  but I like to say that my first loves were football and
• 4:58
  basketball and not a third
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: thing.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I didn't really care about school.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was not one of these kids trying to get into Princeton or something.
• 5:10
  You know,
• 5:10
  I was a decent writer,
• 5:14
  but academics were absolutely not a focus of mine.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: What I remember,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: is taking a sophomore year English class,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: and like many kids out there,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: we were assigned to read Old Man and the Sea.
• 5:31
  And there is a line from that book that I still think about
• 5:39
  probably every month.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it was one of the first pieces of literature,
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: maybe the first book,
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: where I found like,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: something I read in a dumb book?
• 5:55
  completely actually changed how I think about the world and how
• 6:00
  I'm going to
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: navigate the world.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So our guy,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: our hero in the book,
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Santiago,
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: as he's battling the Marlin,
• 6:09
  I'm going to give you the way that I have now slightly
• 6:12
  paraphrased this single
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: line,
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: because for decades now,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: this is the way I think of the line in my head.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's a line Santiago says or says to himself,
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I can control my pain,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: but his pain may drive him mad.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember being really struck with the idea of like,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: you like pain is a thing you can just kind of choose to work through.
• 6:43
  And I remember vividly,
• 6:46
  I mean,
• 6:46
  this is maybe a dumb story,
• 6:48
  but I remember then,
• 6:49
  um,
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: My senior year playing football, I broke my leg, broke my fibula.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can still run on a broken fibula.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just pretty excruciating.
• 7:03
  That line from a book that I read as a relatively uninterested
• 7:09
  kid as a sophomore,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: let's go.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just play half the season on a broken leg.
• 7:19
  I cite that example because I still think like,
• 7:21
  Brendan,
• 7:21
  you know,
• 7:22
  sometimes life gets hard.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: You have a lot of things on your plate.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: You need to get things done.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: That line still kind of comes through to me.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even arguing that this is in a like, you know,
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: like a healthy state to be in.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes you just need to get some things done, you know?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I love, I think of that book often.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think of that line often.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: The exact sentence in the book is,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I can control it though,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: he thought,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: but his pain could drive him mad.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this was an example relatively early on in my life.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: maybe you can just outwork everybody.
• 8:02
  And when it gets really hard and other people are ready to kind
• 8:06
  of throw in the
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: towel,
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: like just don't throw in the towel.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that as I look back over the years,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: there's some element of that where maybe that has kind of proven to,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: be sort of an inspirational line from a book at a young age.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:28
  Do you think,
• 8:29
  do you think you still look at things through a competitive
• 8:33
  lens?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, Oh, a billion percent.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when we first met you were,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just remember that I was like,
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: this guy really hates this other media company.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: And, uh, you were, it turns out you were not alone in that.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And, uh, but, um,
• 8:55
  I am I would not say I'm a person who like thinks about like
• 9:00
  The other like I don't
• 9:02
  compare myself to things I compete with myself I guess what I
• 9:05
  would say so there's
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: no like You know like oh,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: what are the haters gonna think or something like that?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have haters,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's like but like like DJ Khaled is famous for having this like I
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like invisible people who hate him that he imagines hate him.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what motivates him.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of people like that or like,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Michael Jordan,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: in the The Last Dance documentary,
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: like creating all these ways to get motivated to beat people.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, wait a second.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say like the Jordan thing, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: The fabrication of false...
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: the fabrication of these false slights or something.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I do that,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: but in that example of Santiago and the Marlin,
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: the Marlin's just trying to live.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Santiago is trying to catch the fish.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: His hands are being sliced through by this rope with the giant fish.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I go through life trying to fabricate slights, but I think
• 10:10
  I think the idea is when you've committed to a task and you
• 10:16
  want to get there,
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's going to involve some degree of suffering.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Almost anything that's really worth doing,
• 10:25
  and certainly we're going to be talking a lot about works of
• 10:28
  art and the rest,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: which embodies some version or vision of excellence.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard, man.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know this better than anybody as an ultra runner.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: it's like once you commit,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: so to be clear,
• 10:45
  I don't think that the Jordan trying to find slights everywhere
• 10:49
  or imaginary
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: haters,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: that's not what I'm talking about.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: But once you commit, go very all in.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Regardless of the pain and regardless of the suffering.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's an important thing because as that young kid,
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: when you're just trying to find your way,
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: like what are you about and what matters?
• 11:07
  And that was kind of a really vivid example where a book kind
• 11:12
  of gave me a sort of
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: principle that I've,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: in large part,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: for better or for worse,
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: kind of lived by.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, and the fibula healed correctly.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: that's,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was dealing with a more,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: way more significant injury than that my senior year,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: to be clear.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some, yeah, we'll, we'll save that story.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: so that was actually like the,
• 11:38
  that wasn't the injury that could have actually killed me on a
• 11:41
  football field.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, definitely.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Story for another time.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the editor's cut, people.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if there's anything worth dying for, it's high school football.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is going to be an interesting jump from that to number two,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: which is Philosophy as a Way of Life by Pierre Hadot.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Pierre Hadot.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:10
  Thinking again about books that made an absolutely tangible
• 12:18
  impact on the course of your life.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, there have been several, but probably none.
• 12:28
  as direct as this book by the French philosophical historian
• 12:33
  Pierre Audeau with the
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: English translation,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Philosophy is a Way of Life.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So speaking of football,
• 12:40
  and I actually just mentioned this very serious injury I was
• 12:43
  dealing with while
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: playing my senior year of high school.
• 12:46
  Well,
• 12:47
  turns out as I was going to college to play football at the
• 12:52
  college level,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: The NCAA found out about this pre-existing injury.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had gone through a full recruiting process and all of the rest.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And long story short,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: just before literally like getting into my first college football game,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I got notice that the NCAA had found out about this pre-existing injury.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, oh, you're not playing correctly.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're playing no NCAA sports, not football, not basketball.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: That was a whole thing.
• 13:26
  That was an extremely painful period of my life because it was
• 13:30
  like to that date,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: to that time,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: that was my identity,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: kind of 100%.
• 13:37
  So if anybody's had the experience of having like your complete
• 13:42
  identity taken
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: away,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: like in the blink of an eye,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: that's where I was and was kind of a lost soul.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And a very smart friend of mine who I used to play football against,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking with him and he was like,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: dude,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: you sound like you need to take a philosophy class.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, what's philosophy?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Classic football locker room talk.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, shout out, Matthew Halteman.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: He still is a philosophy professor today.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know what philosophy was.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up in an intro to philosophy class.
• 14:22
  And I didn't probably understand like what half the things were
• 14:25
  being talked about
• 14:26
  and certainly didn't understand whatever readings I was
• 14:29
  supposed to read in that
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: first class.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: But what was so attractive to me,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: it was like,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 14:34
  it seems like a bunch of these really smart people are trying
• 14:38
  to talk about and get
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: clear on sort of what's worth valuing and what isn't.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I could use a bit of that right now with where I was in life.
• 14:50
  And so I ended up kind of taking this insane dedication to what
• 14:55
  had been sort of
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: football,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: basketball,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: and just took it 100% over to this world of philosophy and literature.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:06
  went very deep into that and so went from kind of being the
• 15:10
  sort of dumb jock,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm embarrassed to say,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: to really going hard in the worlds of philosophy and literature.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Went through my undergrad and was then going,
• 15:22
  the plan was to go off to New York to start a PhD program in
• 15:27
  philosophy in New
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: York.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Except for the fact that in 1997, I walked into a bookstore.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember if it was a Borders or a Barnes and Noble.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I see this book.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I see this book on the shelf that says philosophy as a way of life.
• 15:51
  And I had my very specific things that I was very into in the
• 15:55
  world of academic
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: philosophy and history of philosophy.
• 15:59
  But I picked up this book and sat down and started reading the
• 16:03
  introduction.
• 16:04
  And it was one of maybe three instances in my life where I
• 16:10
  literally couldn't
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: breathe from reading a book.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it took my literal breath away.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I just sat there and I'm reading this introduction to the book.
• 16:24
  And it crystallized for me many things that – many frustrations
• 16:30
  that I felt about
• 16:31
  academic philosophy and basically like you start doing academic
• 16:36
  philosophy at a
• 16:36
  high enough level and it's basically just a bunch of overly
• 16:39
  smart people talking
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: fancy.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this book by Pierre Adot was saying, look, just –
• 16:48
  The idea of philosophy as kind of a technical vocabulary
• 16:52
  reserved for specialists,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: that's not what this discipline of philosophy,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: philosophia,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: literally translates,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: the love of wisdom.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: That is not what this should be doing, right?
• 17:06
  Don't trivialize the pursuit of wisdom or the love of wisdom by
• 17:11
  just turning it
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: into like,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: look at me,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can use really big fancy words that nobody understands,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 17:17
  And I read this introduction and I looked and it was written by
• 17:21
  a man named Arnold I.
• 17:23
  Davidson.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought I had never heard of him.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: He teaches at the University of Chicago.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: I need to go to the University of Chicago and study with him.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was accepted to school in New York.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had my plane ticket.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had a room rented and I bagged all that.
• 17:42
  And I pivoted and somehow got into the University of Chicago
• 17:46
  and spent the next
• 17:47
  five years studying with Arnold Davidson and going through and
• 17:52
  working on what I
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: think is the right conception of philosophy,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: philosophy as a way of life,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: not just some fancy technical vocabulary where normal people are like,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: that literally has no bearing on anything in the real world.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's my story about philosophy is a way of life.
• 18:14
  So it's not even the author or the material of the book that
• 18:17
  was like the life-changing thing.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was the introduction.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was the introduction.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: His name is not on the cover.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, now, Pierre Audeau went on to be, he's so formative.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: For anybody in these circles, like he's the best.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:34
  But you're right to point out,
• 18:36
  in that moment,
• 18:37
  it was actually the introduction.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: But then I went on and read the entire book probably within three days.
• 18:43
  And so it was a doe,
• 18:45
  but Arnold Davidson unlocked and introduced me to a doe.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that absolutely changed the course of my life.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 18:56
  Have you recommended this book to anybody since you've gotten
• 19:00
  out of school?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've mentioned it certainly on some Blister podcasts,
• 19:07
  and I've certainly had some people tell me that they've picked
• 19:13
  it up and they've
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: read it,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: but it is still an academic treatment.
• 19:18
  So it's not exactly the like,
• 19:20
  yeah,
• 19:22
  go sit down and read this on your next vacation,
• 19:25
  per se.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: It is an academic book.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's brilliant, and...
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Again,
• 19:31
  I feel like it's a good time in the world if more people were
• 19:36
  showing up at
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: colleges and learning
• 19:41
  what's worth valuing and what isn't and and sort of
• 19:45
  understanding why i think
• 19:48
  philosophy is still one of the most fundamental disciplines one
• 19:52
  of the best things
• 19:53
  that a person can spend some of their formative years studying
• 19:57
  i think the world
• 19:58
  would be in a much better position but i i don't i don't tend
• 20:02
  to just like hand it
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: out for everybody at christmas you know
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was going to say, do we have TikTok philosophy influencers?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have a friend who we were talking about,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: all the books on how to write,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: like Bird by Bird,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Draft No.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: 4, Stephen King's On Writing and all that.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, he mentioned this is like three years ago.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, yeah, this, you know, he mentioned a few of these books.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, oh, are you interested in writing?
• 20:32
  And he goes,
• 20:33
  no,
• 20:33
  I think it's just a great way to read like accessible
• 20:36
  philosophy.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: It was these writing memoirs and how-to books.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it was interesting to think about him in that way.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: He has since become a little more interested in writing,
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: but fascinating that that's the way he went into it.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Big left turn.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Number three on your list is a movie called Pulp Fiction,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: which came out,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: in 1995,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: if I remember correctly.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:04
  I mean,
• 21:04
  this is you forcing me into an attempt to try to do things a
• 21:08
  bit chronologically.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this was not in my original order for these things.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, no...
• 21:19
  I actually like the fact that we're going from Pierre Audeau to
• 21:23
  Tarantino.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: The thing about Pulp Fiction for me,
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: a weird note at the time,
• 21:33
  I remember when Pulp Fiction came out and at the time I was
• 21:38
  obsessed with Jim
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Jarmusch or Jim Jarmusch,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: the director,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely loved him.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe there's a few people that can remember this,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: but at the time it was like Tarantino was starting to get pretty big,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: quite a lot of buzz in the rest.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I had this very dumb thing where I was like,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: but he doesn't even have final cut over his own films.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: He's not a truly independent director.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And Jim Jarmusch was.
• 22:13
  And so I felt this weird need to defend Jarmusch against this
• 22:20
  rising star of Tarantino.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that's real petty and it makes no sense all these years later.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I took that personally.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I took that personally.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, this part does sound a little Jordan-esque, except it wasn't me.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was defending a truly independent director.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember going in to see Pulp Fiction for the first time,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: and I probably resisted for a while.
• 22:43
  When I finally sat down to watch it,
• 22:44
  it already started with,
• 22:45
  like,
• 22:46
  this is going to suck.
• 22:48
  I want very much to not like this movie because then I can
• 22:52
  continue my narrative
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: about how overrated Tarantino is.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started watching it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I was completely and utterly blown away.
• 23:03
  And I remember getting,
• 23:04
  I was completely absorbed every second of the entire film.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I just got done and I'm like, well, that was the perfect movie.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was a perfect script.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: There is not a misplaced word.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just witnessed perfection.
• 23:23
  And I was real conflicted because I wanted very much to hate
• 23:26
  this guy and hate this movie.
• 23:29
  And that was just another kind of...
• 23:31
  I mean,
• 23:34
  this is autobiographical,
• 23:35
  right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't say that that happened watching Citizen Kane for me.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: That happened watching Pulp Fiction,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: where it was like,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: this is,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: something like the platonic ideal of the incredibly...
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's like perfect writing,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: perfect acting,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: perfect soundtrack.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And as much as I kind of was a book guy at the time, right?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was the pretty serious philosophy and literature guy.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I still think that to this day, an amazing film
• 24:10
  kind of almost might be the highest form of art because it
• 24:16
  incorporates all of
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: these other art forms,
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know?
• 24:21
  So I still love me and I'm still very protective of my favorite
• 24:24
  novelists and all of that.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: But when a movie takes that writing,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: takes that acting,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: takes those soundtracks,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: takes those visuals and somehow combines them all,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: it is like a miracle.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it was chopped up out of order.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Which is a new thing to me.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was 16 when it came out.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I was staying at my buddy's house.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And his parents came home from a date and they'd gone and seen it.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I said, how was it?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And his dad, who was my optometrist, was like top five all time movies.
• 25:04
  And that was the first time I'd ever heard anybody say
• 25:07
  something like top five
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: instead of it was my favorite movie of all time.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, oh, wow, that's a really great way to think about things.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: You never have to commit.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: That was your, that inspired you.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's why we have five things on this podcast.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: who you react,
• 25:25
  what character you reacted to the most or who was the most
• 25:28
  memorable in that film
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: for you?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, 100%.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I mean...
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: for me personally, Samuel L. Jackson.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's just the greatest.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you burn down every film in the history of everything,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: I might be like,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: we have to save Samuel L.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Jackson's performance in Pulp Fiction.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's unbelievable.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was just in the moment watching that,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: you're just like, this is, this is not human.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is of another world.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I, so I don't know.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: What's your answer?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Samuel L. Jackson.
• 26:07
  Now I can't remember his character's name because I think he
• 26:09
  only identifies
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: himself as...
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Jules.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Jules Wendell.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, man.
• 26:14
  He does say at one point,
• 26:15
  my name's Pitt and your ass ain't digging your way out of it.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, no, it just like introduced him to the world.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I have loved many things he's done since then.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: But that was such a fantastic character.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can't imagine watching him act those scenes and being...
• 26:35
  like being someone working on the set who had never heard of
• 26:38
  him before and just
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: being like,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: this is,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: this is amazing.
• 26:42
  This character is like,
• 26:44
  um,
• 26:45
  do you have a,
• 26:47
  a second favorite Samuel L.
• 26:48
  Jackson role?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, nothing like that.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing that is like the close second, but you know,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what, what, what's yours?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Mitch and the long kiss.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Good night.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Have you, do you know this movie?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:12
  That's where Gina,
• 27:14
  he's like Gina Davis,
• 27:14
  the sidekick and he's just like a total.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he's amazing.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I just love him.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: I like what's the Samuel L. Jackson performance I don't love.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's as that list is at zero.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just I'm always in.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always in watching him.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So any kind of, you know, he does.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't exactly.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: You never forget that it's Samuel L. Jackson.
• 27:36
  So,
• 27:37
  I mean,
• 27:37
  like,
• 27:37
  that's probably why,
• 27:38
  you know,
• 27:39
  you're like,
• 27:39
  that's a good point.
• 27:41
  right he's not like oh he completely became this other this
• 27:45
  other character not
• 27:46
  really like he didn't he never gained 80 pounds or lost 60
• 27:50
  pounds for a rule and
• 27:51
  like completely changed himself yeah yeah that's fantastic yeah
• 27:55
  i i that's a that's
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: an incredible movie just blew my mind as well what do you what do you
• 28:03
  have is your this torturous frickin game you're making us play
• 28:09
  have you talked
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: about your number one
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe if I get to 100 of these, I might do my own.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I might have somebody interview me and do my five favorite things.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not really interested in talking too much on this.
• 28:22
  I think it's more fun to introduce people to other people that
• 28:26
  I know who I think
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: are interesting.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we know the answer is heat anyway.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:33
  no i'm just kidding i'm just kidding but i have i i really
• 28:37
  enjoyed a podcast you
• 28:38
  and i did some years ago where we just went off on the glory
• 28:43
  that is heist movies
• 28:44
  and heist yeah yeah yeah it's funny you should say that because
• 28:47
  i'm actually
• 28:47
  wearing a sweatshirt that has mookie from do the right thing
• 28:51
  right now um anyway uh
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: let's go to number four picasso's don quixote yeah um
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I told you I was going to insist on bringing,
• 29:06
  if we were going to do this and you weren't going to let me do
• 29:09
  what I wanted to do.
• 29:13
  Michelangelo's David is the greatest single piece of art in the
• 29:19
  history of Western civilization.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: That is what I want to say here.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have gone three times to Florence today.
• 29:29
  to pay homage and to to visit michelangelo's david and i i
• 29:36
  would be happy to do an
• 29:37
  hour just making this case uh to philistines you know like
• 29:41
  brendan who disagree so
• 29:44
  i really really wanted to talk about michelangelo's david but
• 29:48
  i'm not allowed to um
• 29:51
  so yeah you just did it dude oh okay cool cool cool cool don't
• 29:55
  cut that out um
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: the most sublime artistic experience of my life,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: like walking through and standing in front of that sculpture.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Look it up, understand the reasons, or just go.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: Just go for yourself.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be swayed by Brendan.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: But what we're actually going to talk about is Picasso's Don Quixote.
• 30:25
  One of the things I think I just love about this is it's bang
• 30:29
  for your buck.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love Don Quixote and to get another amazing artist.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: giving a rendition.
• 30:43
  And this was commissioned,
• 30:44
  by the way,
• 30:44
  on the 350th anniversary of Don Quixote.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the backstory or context here.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: But Picasso's take on Don Quixote is so good.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I went out as a very, very poor, like really poor grad student
• 31:09
  uh you know forever ago and i bought what for me was a really
• 31:14
  nice print of
• 31:17
  picasso's don quixote and uh so you know i probably with the
• 31:21
  frame it probably came
• 31:23
  to like 200 all in which at the time i mean like yeah that that
• 31:28
  was a big deal and
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: um
• 31:31
  Well,
• 31:32
  I just probably didn't,
• 31:33
  like...
• 31:34
  Like,
• 31:34
  did you donate plasma to get that?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Come on.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:39
  That felt like...
• 31:40
  I mean,
• 31:41
  that might as well have been,
• 31:42
  like,
• 31:42
  $6,000,
• 31:42
  you know?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, I loved it so much.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I got this nice frame.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And, like, that same frame, that same print...
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: still hangs in my house today.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: when I'm at my normal desk,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: not where I record podcasts,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: but at my normal desk,
• 32:05
  it's on the wall and it is what I still look at every single
• 32:10
  day and have done that
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: since,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: forever ago when I was a very,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: very broke grad student.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember asking at some point I was like,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: is this,
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: are you allowed to be like an adult and still like the kind of,
• 32:26
  centerpiece artwork in your home is a thing you bought when you
• 32:30
  were like below
• 32:31
  poverty line student so i i actually asked um the great artist
• 32:37
  jeff mcfetridge
• 32:39
  whose work i love he's become a great friend i i love jeff and
• 32:43
  i love his work i
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: actually asked jeff this question
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Jeff, I still have this.
• 32:49
  If this is like,
• 32:50
  dude,
• 32:50
  you can't do that,
• 32:52
  I will take this down and figure something else out.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Jeff was like, it should absolutely continue to hang there.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: This means so much to you.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's a wonderful piece of art.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that is my story with Picasso's Don Quixote.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I do still look at it literally every single day of my life.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: when you say that,
• 33:13
  I'm imagining some of the posters my college roommates had up
• 33:15
  on the walls.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: No, you probably shouldn't.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right, right.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about why was it so impactful for you?
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And why did you feel like you had to have it as opposed to,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: groceries for the next two weeks?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I mean, again, it's kind of that two for one.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you have...
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: The modern master in Picasso.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I always love it when you have sort of a goat in one arena...
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: paying homage and paying respect to a seminal work in another arena.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you get all of the beauty,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 34:08
  that comes in the novel of Don Quixote and what that character
• 34:13
  represents,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 34:14
  And on the most basic level,
• 34:18
  this person who,
• 34:19
  I mean,
• 34:20
  one of the most famous big dreamers
• 34:27
  in the history of western literature right delusional maybe big
• 34:35
  big dreamer
• 34:36
  absolutely and so there is that idea i think of like be
• 34:43
  inspired to do big
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: audacious things and the rest of the world might very much call you crazy
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that that embodiment,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: and then just the absolute,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: what I think,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: beauty of the sketch itself,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: the simplicity of it,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: what is communicated in that picture,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: it's all there.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's all there in this 500 page novel.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's all communicated in one sketched image by Picasso.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
• 35:20
  So I think there's just layers and layers of appreciation going
• 35:23
  on there for me
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: that...
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that's at least a serviceable answer to your question.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's just like ink on paper, right?
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know about this...
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if this is apocryphal or not,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: but the story about Picasso,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I forget who's asking him,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: can you draw me a sketch?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he draws something on a...
• 35:47
  scrap piece of paper or a napkin and like it takes him
• 35:50
  literally 30 seconds and
• 35:51
  there and some whoever says you know whoever asked him to do it
• 35:54
  says how much would
• 35:55
  you charge me for that and he quotes them some exorbitant
• 35:58
  amount and they said that
• 35:59
  took you you know it took you 30 seconds and he says that took
• 36:01
  me 40 years yeah
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I think of when I see this.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Not that this drawing took him 30 seconds,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: but it's literally,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: just paper with,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think ink.
• 36:14
  I think they don't actually know exactly what the original was
• 36:19
  because they don't
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: know where the original is.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Just reading the Wikipedia page here.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love that anecdote.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: That took you 30 seconds.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, it took me 40 years.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of wisdom in that statement.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody told me that when I when they were I was telling them.
• 36:38
  I think they were asking me how much I charge for something
• 36:41
  that I do,
• 36:42
  some creative work.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I don't know, blank.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel like it was that hard.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, it doesn't matter.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: And they said the Picasso thing.
• 36:49
  So I try to think about that sometimes and get excited to try
• 36:58
  to bill somebody for
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: more money at some point.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, I've been working on this for years.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Number five, everyone's favorite Bob Dylan song.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Just kidding.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not everyone's favorite Bob Dylan song.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's a song called Mississippi,
• 37:17
  which I saw it on your list and was shocked to find out it came
• 37:20
  out in 2001,
• 37:21
  which is pretty late Dylan for a lot of people who would quote
• 37:25
  a Dylan song in
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: there as one of their five favorite things.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Can you explain, yeah, how did this end up on your list?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so...
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: if Michelangelo's David,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think is the greatest piece of art in Western civilization,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Bob Dylan for me is my number one musician,
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: like with a bullet.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's hard because you and I all share a love of hip hop.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And like,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: so we're in a just,
• 38:01
  I can't really square like that there's this whole other genre
• 38:04
  that you and I could
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: talk for a very long time about.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: But Dylan, for me, the thing I always say is just Dylan is Shakespeare.
• 38:16
  Dylan came along and in the way that when Shakespeare arrived
• 38:21
  on the scene,
• 38:23
  every single author after Shakespeare was kind of working in
• 38:27
  the shadow of
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: Shakespeare.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's very much how I think of Bob Dylan.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you might hate his voice and that's totally fine.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even care to try to convince you otherwise.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: But because I hated Dylan's voice, too, when I first heard it.
• 38:43
  And I had a literal like Apostle Paul like conversion
• 38:48
  experience on the road to
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Damascus where like the scales fell off my eyes.
• 38:51
  I remember vividly I was driving back in the back of a friend's
• 38:56
  car late at night
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: listening to I think we were listening to Blood on the Tracks.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I went from making fun of my friend Phil to.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: for liking Dylan because he had the worst voice I'd ever heard to like,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: it literally was just like an instant conversion experience.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: So Dylan means a ton to me.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And Mississippi is not actually my favorite Dylan song.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: That would take a very long time to kind of work through that.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: What I will actually propose though,
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: ironically,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: is that what might be my favorite Dylan song is actually not a song.
• 39:35
  My number one might actually be Dylan's spoken word poem called
• 39:41
  Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not familiar, folks, just look it up.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's breathtaking.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for anyone involved in creative endeavors,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: if and when you are feeling kind of hopeless or
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Go please check out Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I love Dylan and there's so many songs of his that mean so much to me.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if we had to whittle it down to one thing,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: it might actually be for me Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to talk about Mississippi.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Look at you just trying to stack this list with way more than five items.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: because I told you,
• 40:28
  this is payback because you have tortured me for months trying
• 40:32
  to think through
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: this.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: This is the reason I want to talk about Mississippi.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, you're right.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like when people bring up Dylan,
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: rarely does it get into,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: granted,
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: this was now 20 some years ago,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: but it is certainly of the more recent Dylan,
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: There is a stanza in Mississippi that I have said,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: when I die,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't actually think I'm going to have a tombstone.
• 41:06
  But there is a stanza from Mississippi that is exactly what I
• 41:11
  would want on my tombstone.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think about this all the time.
• 41:16
  And so chronologically,
• 41:17
  I know we're supposed to be organizing this chronologically.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the song came out.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: I first heard it right when it came out, the day it came out in 2001.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: But this is still the thing.
• 41:27
  I have not come across anything that I would rather have on my
• 41:31
  own tombstone than
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: this stanza from Mississippi.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes like this.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Let's see if I do this right.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm drowning in the poison.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Got no future.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Got no past.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: But my heart is not weary.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's light and it's free.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've got nothing but affection for all those who've sailed with me.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good one.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think at the end, if you've got a few moments...
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: before it lights out,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: that line in particular of,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've got nothing but affection for all those who've sailed with me,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: way to make this just all the way to the end of the,
• 42:20
  let's talk about your chronological order of experiencing these
• 42:23
  things where you're
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: this one is death.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: My deathbed.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, literally on my deathbed.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's fantastic.
• 42:35
  Like,
• 42:35
  you've been listening to this for,
• 42:37
  I guess,
• 42:38
  almost 20,
• 42:40
  24,
• 42:40
  25 years now.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Almost 25.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Where were you when you first encountered this?
• 42:46
  So the craziest thing about that question,
• 42:52
  this album was released on 9-11,
• 42:54
  right?
• 42:58
  So I remember vividly being in my apartment in Chicago at the
• 43:04
  time and had turned on.
• 43:08
  I had been called by a friend or something and was like,
• 43:11
  dude,
• 43:13
  New York is being attacked.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: And like many people that day,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: we were just all glued to our televisions in horror,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: trying to figure out what was going on.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I...
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: I had gotten this album.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was listening to it.
• 43:33
  And so now that day,
• 43:37
  Mississippi was not the song that immediately made the impact
• 43:42
  to me.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've told you this anecdote.
• 43:45
  There's a song called High Water on that 9-11-2001 album called
• 43:50
  Love and Theft.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: And high water has the lines,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: high water's rising,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: the shacks are sliding down,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: folks lose their possessions,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: the folks are fleeing town.
• 44:07
  And I am sitting there listening to this,
• 44:09
  literally watching the Twin Towers fall.
• 44:16
  That's the most surreal experience of art I've ever had in my
• 44:23
  life,
• 44:23
  no question.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely insane kind of fact about the release date of that album.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, I was obsessed with that album when it came out.
• 44:38
  Dylan had had maybe some misses prior to that,
• 44:41
  and it was like with Love and Theft,
• 44:42
  he was back.
• 44:45
  And then I just I love the stanza that I quoted as a kind of
• 44:51
  and I very early on,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was like,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: my God,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: that's the that's the tombstone.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you write on your tombstone.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: My ship's been split to splinters and it's sinking fast.
• 45:03
  And it concludes with,
• 45:05
  I've got nothing but affection for all those who've sailed with
• 45:07
  me.
• 45:08
  And I think we're lucky enough to have made it some decades on
• 45:12
  this planet.
• 45:13
  And you think of all the people that you have crossed paths
• 45:16
  with and all the people
• 45:18
  that have been with you from the early days and your parents
• 45:22
  and friends and the
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: new people you meet.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: On my deathbed,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that I have a chance to think about the very many people that were
• 45:32
  significant and that I got to meet and know and connect with
• 45:35
  along the way.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that stanza crystallizes that for me.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: That is a good one.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: I always remember a famous rock climber at one point saying,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to die in a hospital hooked up to a bunch of machines.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be doing something I love.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like...
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're going to be dying.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not going to love that.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: But,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: shortly,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: a few years after that,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was in the room when my grandmother died,
• 46:05
  like literally was holding her hand as like the monitor ticked
• 46:08
  down and stuff.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, no, I'll take the machine.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'll take the hospital with all the, you know, she had.
• 46:15
  what three of her four kids three of her seven kids in there
• 46:17
  four of her seven kids
• 46:18
  in there and me and you know it's just like yeah this isn't too
• 46:22
  bad so so yeah may
• 46:23
  you have that time to actually think of your bob dylan you know
• 46:27
  lyrics uh yeah
• 46:29
  instead of you know whatever else happens to people right right
• 46:34
  when you know and
• 46:35
  it's true like we do like whether it's skiing or mountain
• 46:38
  biking like we do a lot
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: of things that um
• 46:42
  It happens all the time in our kind of global communities where
• 46:47
  people meet abrupt
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: ends,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: doing these things.
• 46:51
  And we're actually recording this on the day we lost one of our
• 46:56
  dear friends in a
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: backcountry ski accident two years ago today.
• 47:01
  And so,
• 47:02
  you know,
• 47:02
  I live in Crested Butte,
• 47:04
  and I think like a lot of mountain town communities,
• 47:08
  That is absolutely a part of life in these communities,
• 47:11
  the people we lose.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, the end, I think, stays close to us.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the losses are real.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: They are not...
• 47:27
  They're more a part of a life maybe than if you were part of
• 47:30
  certain other communities.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: for better or for worse,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have the opportunity to be reminded of that Mississippi stanza,
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: not infrequently.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Boy, I think we better not end on death here.
• 47:48
  How are all these things and some of the other things that we
• 47:51
  had to narrow your
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: list down from,
• 47:54
  how do they inform what you're doing now for work and how you
• 47:59
  are approaching
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: things on a,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: maybe not a daily basis,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: but like a yearly,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: like how you're going through the world?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I...
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful for the education I had.
• 48:18
  I'm so grateful for so many movies and musicians and
• 48:24
  philosophers and writers that
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: I have come across.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: this whole thing of like people that are like,
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 48:33
  I went to school to study X and now I'm doing this entirely
• 48:36
  other thing that isn't
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: related.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't feel that like at all, you know?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when I started blister,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: we launched with some very,
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: very clear principles and those were a hundred percent shaped by,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: hours and hours of reading Seneca and Marcus Aurelius.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that whole training,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to think taught me how,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: I often say about philosophy,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: it taught me how to think.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Literature taught me how to write.
• 49:10
  You know,
• 49:10
  there's a lot of philosophers out there that write like shit
• 49:13
  and I hate it.
• 49:14
  And I hate a lot of what passes or gets put out as academic
• 49:17
  philosophy because it's
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: garbage trash writing.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that marriage of kind of great writing and great thinking,
• 49:28
  where the intention is to communicate something important to
• 49:32
  many people to try to
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: help them navigate their own lives,
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: that's what is significant to me.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I...
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: When I started Blister,
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: a big thing,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: we kind of got going with like,
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: we were going to do extremely in-depth reviews,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_00: in a way that maybe had never really been done like ever.
• 49:54
  You know,
• 49:54
  a typical ski review from us might be 10,000 words by the time
• 49:58
  we're done.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember very much thinking of the genre of the review.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: of the genre of the gear review as being like arguably the worst genre,
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: the worst form of writing ever invented by humans.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, that's big.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I stand by it.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: I still see too much of it to this day.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think like I came very much thinking, let's elevate this genre.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what that meant is like,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm clear,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: we're not writing for the New Yorker here.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: But what would it mean for the gear review?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: What should that look like and why, you know?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it is a bit strange or maybe not so obvious,
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: but all the stuff that I do today,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think has absolutely been informed by those years of study,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: the things I'm still reading today.
• 51:00
  I think one of the very great things is you watch a film or you
• 51:04
  read a book and
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: that actually,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: in the most surprising way,
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: come and inform you
• 51:12
  Maybe a podcast question I'm going to ask or a certain topic
• 51:16
  that I want to write
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: about or,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: so I think like,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: my God,
• 51:20
  people like isn't the point that each day we ought to just be
• 51:24
  is like really
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: extremely curious and open to learning.
• 51:31
  Whether it's by revisiting Picasso's Don Quixote or watching
• 51:38
  Pulp Fiction,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: maybe it's just a note of inspiration.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's rereading Old Man and the Sea and being like,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: you're right,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: I could actually go harder.
• 51:46
  If I'm actually committed to the thing that I've said I want to
• 51:49
  commit myself to,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think it all comes in.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a fantastic place to end it, I think.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: I want to challenge your gear review thing with like Home Depot reviews,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: but we should just end it here.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think those are the worst genre of writing maybe ever.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, aren't those kind of gear reviews?
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you're saying gear reviews are the worst thing,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: the worst type of writing we've created,
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: those would be the basement of the worst thing ever created in my mind.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Dante's, like, levels to hell.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, man.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: This was super fun.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, it's always, always fun.
• 52:38
  Whether we are recording something on tape or just having one
• 52:42
  of our off the air
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: conversations,
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate every single conversation I ever get to have with you.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_00: Even the ones that put me through months of torture.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: So always, always a pleasure.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I apologize again.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to end it now.