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The Business of Surprise with Lillian Rafson · Serious Lady Business

• Leslie Youngblood (00:01) Welcome back to Serious Lady Business. I'm Leslie Youngblood, and today I am so excited to have you all meet Lillian Raphson. She started Pack Up and Go at just 23 years old after a conversation in a hostel in Latvia. Lillian, I'm dying to know, did you immediately know this is it? Or was it something completely new and terrifying for you? Lillian Rafson (00:26) As cheesy as it sounds, it really was a light bulb moment. And I remember, I mean, that the context here was that shortly before this conversation, like days before, I had given up my lease on my apartment in New York. I had just quit my job. I truly felt like I was in free fall. And I'm not an especially spiritual person, but I remember thinking, like, I really, really hope that I have some. Leslie Youngblood (00:48) Mm. Lillian Rafson (00:56) sort of light bulb moment to help me figure out what I want to do next. I had no idea where I wanted to be, what I wanted to do. And so when I heard about this concept, yeah, it was it was pretty much instant that I said, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. Yeah, and here we are 10 years later. Leslie Youngblood (01:12) Wow. That's amazing. Like what was the what was yeah, what was that conversation? Did you overhear conversation? Where did you meet somebody in a in a in a bar, in a pub in Latvia? Like tell us more about this life-changing conversation. Lillian Rafson (01:26) So I was in a hostel called The naughty squirrel party hostel, if I remember correctly. Yeah, to sort of set the stage here. ⁓ and I was in the lobby and I had sort of ended up there by accident. And I know a lot of people who who are traveling and staying in hostels in Europe, you sort of meet people and then you end up going to a new place and maybe changing your plans. And and I wound up in Riga sort of by accident. Like I had met somebody a couple days ago, and she said that she Leslie Youngblood (01:34) my gosh, hilarious and appropriate for a hustle. Lillian Rafson (02:01) She was just going to continue up the Baltic coast, and I said, That sounds great. I think I'll do that too. And I was blown away. Riga is a really, really beautiful city, and I knew nothing about it. I didn't even know that I was going to be going there more than like 48 hours earlier. So a bunch of us were sitting in the lobby of our hostel, just chatting, getting to know each other, and there were these two sisters who were from the Netherlands, and ⁓ and I think I had shared, I ended up here kind of randomly. Leslie Youngblood (02:13) Wow. Lillian Rafson (02:31) I had no idea and I am loving it. I'm really blown away by the city. And they said, You're not going to believe this, but we didn't know we were coming here until this morning. We are on a surprise vacation with a company based in the Netherlands that plans surprise vacations for people around Europe. And I had never heard of the concept before, and I immediately thought, that's the most fun thing I've ever heard in my life. Leslie Youngblood (02:55) Yeah. Hmm. Lillian Rafson (03:01) I'm obsessed with this idea. And throughout the course of the conversation, when I told people I was from the States, you know, the conversation naturally evolved into places that people have traveled, and where do you want to go? And and somebody mentioned, like, ⁓ I was recently in Denver, Colorado, and I loved it there. Another person said, I was just in Savannah and Charleston, and it was so charming. Somebody else said, I love Boston. And I hadn't been to any of those places. And yet I was in Riga Latvia. And I just had this realization, like, what is going on here that I thought of travel solely as being overseas? And I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which shout out to Pittsburgh. It's an amazing city, but it's not a place that many people think to visit for leisure tourism. And I it just sort of dawned on me like. Leslie Youngblood (03:33) Yeah, right. What? Mm. Mm-hmm. no. Yeah. Sure. Lillian Rafson (03:58) I am guilty of not seeing cities like Pittsburgh as leisure vacation destinations. And what if I could take this really, really fun concept that already existed in Europe and bring it back to the states with the specific goal of helping people discover cities in the US that they wouldn't think to visit on their own. Leslie Youngblood (04:02) Mm-hmm. That is awesome. I think that is so cool. And so I think relatable for anybody listening, where we think, travel, yes, where do I to travel to? Yes, Europe. Yes, you know, Asia or somewhere warm. And it's but there is such charm and importance of seeing what is really in your own proverbial backyard. But we didn't have the tools or anything that made it easy. Because right? Like it feels like, well, I don't know. What would I do in Pittsburgh? What would I do in Detroit? You know, all those things. And so I just think that is Lillian Rafson (04:47) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (04:50) Is ⁓ so cool and important that you brought this to the world. And it's built around surprise and spontaneity, which sometimes too is the opposite of how people want to travel, I think, as well. Why do you think the concept resonated so deeply with people, Lillian? Lillian Rafson (05:04) Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. And you're right. We only want good surprises when we travel, right? I don't want to be surprised with a flight cancellation. I don't want to be surprised with severe weather. But if you think about a vacation that you recently planned for your family and Leslie Youngblood (05:15) Yeah right. Lillian Rafson (05:28) How many decisions had to go into it? Right? There's not just choosing your destination and coordinating schedules, but then you're looking at all the flight options. I always have 25 tabs open when I'm looking at hotels or accommodations. Then it's dinner reservations, activities, like it is so much work to plan a vacation. And on top of all of the decisions that we're all making every day, I think the element of surprise. Leslie Youngblood (05:30) Mm. Sure. Yes. Yep. Lillian Rafson (05:57) really appeals to people because it's really fun. Like there's the adventurous aspect, but you also don't have to plan. And having a vacation that is completely customized to you without any of the stress, I think really is enticing to people. Like if you've ever heard the phrase, I need a vacation from my vacation, that's what we're trying to solve. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (06:05) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Fuck yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, I think that's so cool. And I also think what's so special too about what you did is that it wasn't just about traveling, it was about supporting small businesses and supporting, you know, people to go to overlooked cities. Why was that so important to you to incorporate into Pack Up and Go Lillian? Lillian Rafson (06:41) I love small businesses. I a fun fact about me is that everyone in my family owns a small business. ⁓ both of my parents, both of my siblings, all four of my grandparents, ⁓ a lot of my aunts and uncles and extended family, and it's my husband's family, ironically, is the same way. So I just feel like I have so much appreciation for how hard small businesses work. And Leslie Youngblood (06:50) Wow. Mm-hmm. Lillian Rafson (07:07) When you think about traveling, sure, sometimes it's really nice to have a familiar meal or, you know, get your regular Starbucks order. But by and large, when you're traveling, we are more open to going to the local places that make that destination unique. You're going to the cool cafe down the block from where you're staying, or you're going to these unique shops that you can't visit when you're at home. and I think it's so special that as travelers, We are directly impacting ⁓ where we spend our money. And so now as a travel advisor, I feel like we have a huge, almost like responsibility to help our travel travelers funnel their tourism dollars to the businesses that need it most. So ⁓ we have a team member who honestly I'm very jealous of her job, but her job is just to do in-destination research on the best restaurants, the best small businesses, sort of niche things to do in your destination. And we have a stated promise that at least 20% of all the businesses that we recommend to our travelers will be women or minority-owned businesses. Leslie Youngblood (08:17) That that is awesome. I love it. And it's spar you know, and two You've built this into a multi-million dollar business. How incredible. I mean, congratulations. That's just amazing. And you did it with you did it supporting small and you also did it without outside funding. In this startup culture that's obsessed with raising money, did you actively choose to bootstrap it, Lillian? Tell us a little bit about like the financial path for pack up and go. Lillian Rafson (08:28) Okay. Yeah, from day one I made the decision to bootstrap the business. And there is certainly nothing wrong with raising money. Honestly, I think in a lot of ways my life would be much easier had I figured it out. but it it making that decision sort of changes the trajectory of the type of business that you build. So if you choose to raise money, you have a fiduciary responsibility to your investors to help them get a return on your investment. Leslie Youngblood (08:59) For her. Huh? Mm-hmm. Lillian Rafson (09:19) And I do think it's possible to do that while you build a mission-driven, core value-driven business. ⁓ But from day one, I knew that I wanted this business to be a sustainable, healthy, small business that doesn't have a set timeline for when we are going to exit and when we're going to, you know, see that return on investment. And so, in a lot of ways, it's really taken the pressure off of me as a founder. Us as a business and allowed us to really, you know, stay true to our core values of holding the traveler experience above all else and making sure that when we are making a business decision, that is the primary thing we're considering, versus someone else's financial interest. And of course, we are still a for-profit business. We cannot keep planning trips if we aren't profitable. But but Leslie Youngblood (10:04) Yes. Right. Right. Lillian Rafson (10:15) For a bootstrap business at least, I think there are There are basically two metrics that matter at the end of the day. There is your profitability and your customer experience and and how your overall satisfaction from your travelers or your clients. Because if you have amazing customer satisfaction, but you're not profitable, then you can't stay in business. And on the flip side, you can be as profitable as you want, but if nobody likes your product or service, you're also not gonna stay in business. Leslie Youngblood (10:29) Mm-hmm. Lillian Rafson (10:49) And so being a bootstrap business has really forced us to figure out how to optimize for both of those metrics. Leslie Youngblood (10:50) Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's you know, I wrote something down because I think it's you touch on something that people don't think about and it can seem so glamorous from the outside is getting funding and getting investors and helping you scale. But you have you said like you have a responsibility to those investors to make their money back. And it's not it becomes not just about your idea anymore or your mission. And those are important in in valid and real too, but there also adds this complexity. Complexity to it that you are answering to, and you have to answer to because you know it could become this additional pressure and this box potentially, right? I mean, it can work, right? If that's what feels right for you to go down that road, great. But bootstrapping, and I cannot tell you the number of entrepreneurs that I speak to, they're like bootstrap it, bootstrap it, like do whatever you can to bootstrap, keep that cap table, don't bring in investors, like you know, don't do this or that and the other. Because whether or not they've seen Lillian Rafson (11:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (11:57) How it can go down, you know, on the other end, or they've heard the horror stories and done it the hard way themselves and know that it's difficult, but it's so worth it. And so I think that, you know, it can feel like, ⁓ if only we had an investor, everything would be easy. No, it wouldn't. It I mean, sure, it would change a little bit of it, but there is so much to be said for bootstrapping and to be able to drive the business and be beholden only to you and your team in a way that changes completely. Lillian Rafson (12:13) Yeah. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (12:27) When you bring in investors as well. Lillian Rafson (12:27) And you're one hundred percent right. And when I was starting the company in twenty sixteen, that was the era of like outdoor voices was a female founded business. Nasty belt, tons of funding. So I I distinctly remember looking around and being like, should I be doing this? Like it's sort of what everyone is doing. But Leslie Youngblood (12:38) ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Right? Sure. Lillian Rafson (12:52) So now I do a lot of work with people who want to start a small business and and I do some coaching and some education for them. And the thing that I always have people start with is getting clear on your personal goals. Like what do you want from the business? Not just not just what impact you want your business to have, or you know, who do you want to be serving, or what is your why? What do you want personally, professionally, and financially? Leslie Youngblood (12:57) Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Lillian Rafson (13:21) Financially, because once you get started, it is so easy to get swept up in what you see everyone else doing and what the current trends are in your industry or the business community. And so being crystal clear on like this is what I want and this is why I want it is so important as you look around and see what everyone else is doing. Leslie Youngblood (13:44) Yes, I'm so happy you mentioned Nasty Gal. Like I used to love Nasty Gal and that is like a cautionary tale, I feel like, where she grew it. Sofia Amaruso and she grew it and and sold it. And where is Nasty Gal now? Right? And it's not even, you know, ten years later. I mean, but but she has had like a really incredible journey too. I can't I think she was living in LA and she moved to Europe or I can't remember, or maybe Portugal now, I feel like. Did she move to Portugal or something, Lillian? I can't Lillian Rafson (13:47) He Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I think she's in London Leslie Youngblood (14:14) Remember. Okay. Yes. And Lillian Rafson (14:14) and I actually I love following her because her content is so driven by like Leslie Youngblood (14:19) honest. Lillian Rafson (14:20) It's so honest about her journey and how you know fundraising seemed like this fairy tale and turned out not to be. And she actually now is an investor, ironically. But so much of her content is around helping founders achieve their goals. And and so if people do want to seek funding, there are investors out there who are very patient and who are not going to say, I need 10x growth in the next three years. You just really have to be mindful about who's investing in you and Leslie Youngblood (14:27) We have Yeah, Yeah. Lillian Rafson (14:50) And that relationship. Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (14:52) Yes, definitely. There it's never easy any way you go or any way you do it. It's like, you know, but you have to choose and that's, you know, the easy and the hard part as well. ⁓ so speaking of hard, Lillian, tell us maybe one or two of the growing pains of going from a one woman show to leading a full team with pack up and go. Lillian Rafson (15:15) Yeah. Whew. there's a lot. Leslie Youngblood (15:18) Yeah, I know we got how much time do we got? Lillian Rafson (15:22) Exactly. I would say, you know, when I tell people I own a travel company and that we've been in business for ten years, a lot of people immediately say, the pandemic must have been really hard for you. Like that must have been a really big challenge. And it certainly was. I'm not going to downplay that, but because we only plan domestic trips, ⁓ we stayed in business and we offer road trips, we launched outdoors trips, so we were able to pivot to stay afloat, especially While people couldn't travel overseas. So I feel very fortunate from that perspective to to have stayed stayed in business. The hardest stage of the business for us actually came after the pandemic. Because from 2020 to 2022, there was so much pent-up demand. Everybody just wanted to get out of their house. I felt that way too. And and a lot of people did not feel comfortable traveling. Leslie Youngblood (16:14) ⁓ Lillian Rafson (16:21) Overseas, or we couldn't travel overseas. So the business grew like crazy in 21 and 22. And it was really in 2023 when we started to see a slowdown in that demand. And I think it happened for a few reasons. One, people could travel overseas again. Two, a lot of people had taken their revenge travel trips and people were starting to actually pull back on spending. Like they had spent their pandemic savings and were like, ⁓ Leslie Youngblood (16:37) Facciaming. Yeah. Yeah. Lillian Rafson (16:51) overboard there. but I had staffed the company for the growth that we had been seeing the couple of years prior. And this was a moment where, you know, I'm glad I don't have external funders, but having the mentorship ⁓ and the sort of business wherewithal that comes from those types of relationships could have been healthy be or helpful because I probably would have staffed my company differently in hindsight. And I was Leslie Youngblood (17:19) Yeah. Lillian Rafson (17:21) Not prepared as a leader for the business to be able to expand and contract. And so when we saw sort of a slowdown in demand, which was natural and happened seasonally, but this was a broader economic shift, that was when we really ran into trouble. And that was the without a doubt, the hardest year-long period I have faced in the 10 years I've been running Packa Bingo. Leslie Youngblood (17:28) Mm. Mm. Mm. Lillian Rafson (17:51) ⁓ And my biggest lesson from all of that was make sure that your business can withstand ebbs and flows in demand, make sure you are staffing it appropriately, make sure you have the cash reserves, and make sure you are always keeping your eye on your business's cash flow. ⁓ Because that that was I I learned that one the hard way. And now, you know, it took a very painful year to restructure the business, and we had to downsize. Which, especially after a few years of growth, felt like even more of a disappointment, not just for the team members who are impacted, but for me as a leader seeing that that contraction. But now the company is finally structured in a way that allows us to grow and expand and contract as needed. So ⁓ and my hope, my sincere hope is that throughout that whole process, our travelers never ⁓ never saw a difference in their experience. Leslie Youngblood (18:26) Mm. Mm. Lillian Rafson (18:51) Between our trip planning, our 24-7 support, and I think that we were able to continue to deliver an exceptional service throughout that time. Leslie Youngblood (18:59) Yeah. Well and I think again you you hear something there that I think a lot of A lot of business owners, whether you're new, probably when you're new, because when you're old, like and you've been around, you know that there's going to be high times and low times. And when you are riding like that high, you think or and you're growing, you think, I'm gonna grow forever. And this is gonna be great. It's only up, up, up from here. And no matter what industry, what product, what service, there are going to be times, whether in or out of your control, that you're going to have those dips and it doesn't mean that you aren't meant to be a business owner or that your business is failing. You just have to adjust and recalibrate. And you know, I think sometimes too, and I would love to get your perspective on this, as women, we can really take that internally of like, I messed up or I don't think this is working or I should be doing this more. And it's like where no, it's just not it's just a new level, new devil that you have to learn and grow grow through as a business owner. And so I think, you know, it it's just the fact of the matter. You like prepare yourself. I think that's something too that you don't maybe the new entrepreneurs we tell them, but you don't listen and that's fine because you want to do certain things, right? Like there's going to be levels where you are like clawing to keep your lights on, maybe. Or you're just gonna have to let go people on your team that you love deeply and it like pains you to even have to think about it. But that is part of the blessing and the curse of doing what you're doing. And I can't imagine all the lessons. Did you lean on the fellow business owners in your family for guidance at that time, Lillian? How did you get through it? Lillian Rafson (20:49) I did. I did. And wow, I am gonna mentally remember the new level, new devil phrase because that's exactly what it is. Like it running a business never stops being hard. It's just the thing that's hard evolves over time. The thing that I really struggled with, and you touched upon this a little bit, was that when Leslie Youngblood (20:55) Yeah. Uh-huh. Lillian Rafson (21:09) When the business has been growing and doing really well and we're getting accolades and we get great press, like I'm more than happy to soak that up personally and and just say, yeah, I got us here. I did that. But then the flip side has to be true also. And so what I've been working on is really like untangling myself personally from the business and my like value and self-worth from the business. And Leslie Youngblood (21:19) yeah. Mm. Mm. Lillian Rafson (21:39) And I can still be proud of our accomplishments, and I can still say, like, I made some great decisions that I'm really proud of that led us here. But it becomes really dangerous when you are so enmeshed in the business emotionally and personally, and things aren't going well. And yes, I have learned a lot of lessons. I probably would have done things differently in hindsight, but this is my first time running a business. I didn't know any better, I'd never gone through that before. Leslie Youngblood (21:49) Yes. Lillian Rafson (22:09) And so I'm trying, I've been trying to reframe the story for me and the narrative as like I'm not a failure. I made decisions that I would do differently next time. And this was part of a learning process, and now the business is stronger. It's not that I personally. Leslie Youngblood (22:22) Mm. Yeah. Lillian Rafson (22:31) wanted to let people down. You know, it just things happen. And so yes, having a lot of entrepreneurs in the family was definitely very helpful. Leslie Youngblood (22:33) Right, right, right. Yeah. I wanna I mean it I think that can be true. It can be so isolating as an entrepreneur and a business owner when you don't have that in your life. And so to be able to have that cloth the close family members, not even just friends or associates or people in a you know, a professional organization, to have that for family must have been a really must be a wonderful gift to be able to lean on them and ask them questions. And I'm sure they s said the same thing to you. Like this is normal. You are going we maybe told you this when we were starting Lillian and you didn't listen to us. But you know, to you can see like all like those things that you don't necessarily think of. And I Lillian Rafson (23:09) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (23:19) I'm sure it's something that you also makes you a better coach for the entrepreneurs that you work with and to share that experience with them. Do you think that that is something they overlook the most? Or what do you generally find, or is there something that you find like when you're working with young entrepreneurs or new entrepreneurs, like some of the things that they don't think about, or maybe that they overthink too? Lillian Rafson (23:44) yeah, one hundred percent. I now in hindsight I'm like, I was not qualified to be a a small business coach prior to this experience. Like now I feel like I really understand it. And I think Leslie Youngblood (23:51) Yeah. Yeah. Lillian Rafson (23:56) In a lot of ways, when you're starting a new business, you get so excited about your why and the impact that you wanna have and you know the change you wanna see in the world, which is great and you should absolutely think about that. But I don't think people spend enough time on their business plan and working on Leslie Youngblood (24:13) ⁓ Lillian Rafson (24:14) Projections and thinking about the how and the what and the like the pricing model and making sure that you are building a financially sound business. Because again, you can you can have all of these dreams and really want to have an amazing impact on the world, but if you're not in business, you don't get to have that impact through your business. So that I think was my biggest takeaway was all new entrepreneurs need to be spending a lot more time. Leslie Youngblood (24:37) Yeah. Lillian Rafson (24:44) on their financial projections, even though that feels like the least exciting, the least sexy part of getting started, you know, we want to think about our branding and the way that our store is going to look and what we're going to post on social media, but we need to take a step back and make sure that you have a clear financial goal for yourself and that whatever business you're building will help you achieve it. Leslie Youngblood (24:57) Yeah. Mm. Yeah, it's that unsexy people. It's just like working out. It's like being healthy. It's like I don't want to eat my vegetables, but that's all you gotta do if you wanna stay healthy. And so Lillian, so that's something that people overlook. What's something that you that they overthink as a new entrepreneur? Lillian Rafson (25:11) Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Wow, what I think people overthink. You know, sometimes okay, this might sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I think there's a very fine line between planning and procrastination. And Leslie Youngblood (25:43) Mm. Lillian Rafson (25:45) I think a lot of times people get really, really in their heads about building their website or perfecting their client-facing materials or twelve branding just the slightest bit or doing focus groups until they turn blue in the face. You know, and at the end of the day, you just have to test and learn. And you have to get started and start working with real clients because you're going to change. Your branding is going to change. Your offerings are going to change. Leslie Youngblood (25:54) Mm. Lillian Rafson (26:15) Your website copy is going to change. So just starting with your MVP and then making sure that you are actually taking feedback and learning from that and incorporating it, I think is the most important thing. So I would say spend a lot of time thinking about your projections, but don't let your planning become procrastination. Leslie Youngblood (26:21) Uh-huh. Yeah, definitely. And like you said, like it's some the company that you start today won't be the company that you're running six months from now or a year from now. And I think a lot you know, they don't We don't think about that either. And that's why you need that business plan to help you, you know, adjust and make it through some of those pivots. And it because like you know, even think about Amazon and started selling books, right? And they just puppeted and pivoted and learned and tweaked and and did all the things and even skims started with underwear. Now they're collabing with Nike and Montclair and all the things. And it's like you just have to be prepared and and to not wait. Like you said, like you have to act, like get that MVP. Don't wait. If you launch a perfect product. Lillian Rafson (27:07) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (27:16) You've launched too late, like as well. So it's just something, but I I totally have had those conversations where I don't have my website or I don't have this. And then there's people that are just like going and making money that don't have any of that. And it's like, you know, you gotta, you gotta just keep moving, gotta keep moving. Lillian, looking back at 23-year-old, your 23-year-old self, what do you think that she got right that more experienced founders sometimes miss? Lillian Rafson (27:17) Yeah. Yeah. I ooh wow. I think that in a lot of ways it was helpful that I didn't know what I didn't know. Leslie Youngblood (27:52) Mm. Lillian Rafson (27:53) Because I was so excited about the idea. And I did make financial projections and I just got started. I just built a website on Squarespace and set up my Google Drive and we evolved over time. But if you look at the very first trips that departed, the process is virtually identical. And the the types of correspondence that we have with our travelers is virtually Leslie Youngblood (28:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wow. Lillian Rafson (28:23) Identical. Of course, it's become more sophisticated, but I feel really grateful. Like I've always been a very enthusiastic person and just a dive in kind of person. And I feel really, really grateful for that. And I I wonder if had I waited to start the business, today I'm 33, I'm pregnant with my first kid, I have a mortgage. You know, I I wonder if I had started it now, would I have jumped in with the same kind of, you know. whimsy and just excitement. And that's not to say that it wasn't hard. Like I was working at a bar five nights a week while I was starting this business. You know, I still had rent to pay, I still had to support myself, but the stakes I I made it so that the stakes felt lower. And by having that passive or not passive income, not passive whatsoever, by working at the bar and having that income Leslie Youngblood (29:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lillian Rafson (29:21) I gave myself the option to dive in. And I remember just always thinking, the worst thing that can happen is I go get another job. Like that's it. And Leslie Youngblood (29:31) Right. Totally. Mm-hmm. Lillian Rafson (29:36) I worked really hard and luckily I didn't need to go back and apply for other jobs. But but I I I wish that more people had that mindset. Like set yourself up for success and know that it will be okay if it doesn't work out. You can just go do something else. But at least you tried. Gave it your all and you have an awesome experience. Leslie Youngblood (29:44) Yeah. Right. Yes, and you will be ten times further. minimum than anybody else that may be going for that other job that you may go for. I mean, that's the thing. It's you think, ⁓ I don't know. I think we do get in our heads sometimes. And especially if you have additional responsibilities, right? If you're 33 and not 23, right? And I always tell 20 somethings like, do everything. Do it. Move and take that chance. Like my God. But they, but even they like think like, no, I like, and then I have student loans or and then I have this. I'm like wanna shake them and be like, you have no Lillian Rafson (30:16) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (30:26) You're a freebird man, like get out there. Trust me on this. But it's all in the, you know, the perspective. Because from their perspective, they do have responsibilities and they don't want to let their parents down or their friends down or them, you know, what whatever it may be. But it's like you can always change. You can start tomorrow and then at the end of the day be Nope, I don't want to do this anymore. And you change your mind and you go and find a job. Like and I think also too, it's like I don't know why we feel like we have to stick with just one thing. Or if something doesn't work out, it's it's not that you're a failure, just means you you're pivoting, whether you're in the business, if you have a business, everything and everybody at all times is pivoting and changing and evolving. And I wish we could all have much more of that perspective because I think we would find or create and the world become a lot more of an interesting place if we all kind of leaned into that and didn't that we kind of like put down that fear and that pressure on ourselves too. So Lillian Rafson (30:56) Great. Totally agree, totally. Leslie Youngblood (31:25) Yeah, yeah. All right. So I like to ask this question to our guest on Serious Lady Business, Lillian. What is one thing the highlight real never shows about building a business or career? Lillian Rafson (31:37) I would say The late late nights that you put into this business. And you know, I hear so many people say, I want to start my own business because I want to set my own hours. And we used to pre-pandemic, we had a physical office and we used to work in person. And maybe every three or four weeks, we would have something called a book-a-thon, where the whole team, even like our non-travel planners, if we Leslie Youngblood (31:50) Mm-hmm. Lillian Rafson (32:09) if we needed to catch up on our trips, we would order pizza to the office, the entire team would stay until 10 or 11 at night, and we would have like a work marathon party. And I am so grateful that I had a team who was willing to do that. And we made it really fun. But but beyond those book-a-thons that we had as a team, I mean Once you start a business, you have stress dreams about that company almost every night. You never stop thinking about it. And so, you know, the joke is I quit my job because I didn't want to work nine to five and now I'm working twenty-four seven. So I feel like that that doesn't always get put on the highlight reels. Leslie Youngblood (32:38) Mm-hmm. Yep. ⁓ Yeah, I completely agree because you think I don't wanna be beholden to this job, this chain, this hamster wheel, and then you're like, I'm gonna start my own thing and then you're like, no, I'm it's even worse. Now I really can't turn off and I it it is the the buck truly stops with me. I'm the one that everybody comes to for questions and problems and it's just yeah, so but it Lillian Rafson (33:04) Yeah. Leslie Youngblood (33:15) If you know that's you feel that's the right path, then that is okay, right? And it's true again that you are the boss and you're not, you know, have your managers or or whatever inspired you to leave wherever you were at and but yes, to know truly that it is like twenty-four seven. But you will find hopefully it will make you happier at the end of the day because you are bringing something to life and fruition that doesn't exist and is needed. Lillian Rafson (33:19) It's right there. Totally. And yeah. I Yes. Absolutely. And it's so funny, I have these really distinct memories. When I was growing up we lived in Pittsburgh and every summer my family went on vacation to Cape May, New Jersey. That was our big trip every year. And when we would pack the car, my parents, small business owners in the nineties, would bring the fax machine with us on vacation. Every single year we went Leslie Youngblood (34:01) No They would plug it in to like where you guys went. my god, stop Lily. Lillian Rafson (34:07) Yep. Every single year the fax machine came with us. And and now like I totally get it. I totally understand why they had to do that. ⁓ but yeah, that's not making it into the highlight reel. Leslie Youngblood (34:14) Yeah, sure. That is adorable. I have I love the visual of a fax machine in like an 80s station wagon or like a 90s minivan. I love that so much. my gosh. That's perfect. That's like a perfect place to end on and wrap up today, Lily. And I would love for you to share where our listeners can follow up with you and potentially book these incredible trips with you and pack up and go. Lillian Rafson (34:43) Yeah, you can find us online. Our website is packupgo.com. On social media, we are pack up go underscore travel. And we have twenty-four seven support. So if you ever have a question, you can always reach out. Leslie Youngblood (34:50) Perfect. And I know they do Yeah. Perfect. And you do business coaching too. Is that still where they can connect with you on business coaching as well, Lillian? Lillian Rafson (35:01) That would be through my personal website, which is lily and raftson.com. Leslie Youngblood (35:06) Perfect. And we will be sure to drop those in the show notes as well for everybody. Lillian, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your incredible story. We love everything that you're doing. Keep it up. Keep doing those incredible trips and leading and sharing all the things with entrepreneurs that they need to know. That, you know, it's not so scary. Anybody can do it and do wonderful things just like you have. Thank you. Cheers. Lillian Rafson (35:16) Thank you so much. Yeah. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me.