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Spiritual Voids · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  Hey there, this is Eamon. Welcome back. I'm joined, as always, by my good friend, Jon. We are jumping back into the Big Book of AA today to discuss chapter three, more about alcoholism.
• 0:11
  All right, we're back after once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Now we're gonna talk about young people. Young people. Yeah. Youngins. What, what qualifies as youngins? Hmm. Feel like I, I qualified as a youngin.
• 0:25
  You did. I mean, I was pretty young. Mm-hmm. I wasn't an old man. That's for sure. For sure. Shall I read? Go for it.
• 0:32
  "Young people may be encouraged by this man's experience to think that they can stop, as he did, on their own willpower.
• 0:40
  We doubt if many of them can do it because none will really want to stop, and hardly one of them, because of the peculiar mental twist already acquired, will find he can win out.
• 0:51
  Several of our crowd, men of 30 or less, had been drinking only a few years, but they found themselves as helpless as those who had been drinking 20 years.
• 1:00
  To be gravely affected, one does not necessarily have to drink a long time, nor take the quantities some of us have. This is pa- this is particularly true of women.
• 1:10
  Potential female alcoholics often turn into the real thing and are gone beyond recall in a few years. Certain drinkers who would be greatly insulted if called alcoholics are astonished at their inability to stop.
• 1:23
  We are familiar-- we who are familiar with the symptoms see large numbers of potential alcoholics among young people everywhere, but try and get them to see it." Okay, uh, w- there's a, there's a,
• 1:38
  uh, a touchy little call-out there- Mm-hmm... on, on the women out there. I'd love, uh, if there are already women listeners at this point or down the road, please give us some feedback of how you feel about that.
• 1:53
  For sure. Um, you know, um, I don't know if that's true. It might be true. Maybe it is true. Uh, but I know that I've seen men that do that, uh, you know, young men that do that, for sure. Yeah. That are absolutely gone.
• 2:08
  And, and it is like, I think we've said this before, but it's remarkable when you see those people who are that young come into the rooms, um, just devastated. That are drunk like o- like old man drunk. Yeah.
• 2:21
  Like old man drunk. Like liter of vodka a day drunk, and it's like, "Whoa, you're 23." Like it's incredible. Knows no bounds, man.
• 2:31
  The first meeting I ever went to was somewhere in Maryville that we got carted off to when I was in Cornerstone, and it felt like, I mean, I looked around, and it was just a bunch of old people- Hmm... telling stories.
• 2:45
  Hmm. It felt like I was in there hanging out with a bunch of versions of my granddaddy. Hmm. And I was like, "What am I?... All right, I definitely don't [chuckles] qualify- Yeah. Yeah... to be here." Like, this is neat.
• 2:56
  You guys are nice. Yeah. Um, but come full circle after a relapse, after getting a little bit worse, things progressing as they do, uh, and then I actually read the book. This was encouraging to me. Mm-hmm.
• 3:11
  Not that it was a good thing that young people get so bad off, but just to- Right... uh, to equalize the playing field, like- Yeah... oh, yeah, like I can qualify. Hmm.
• 3:22
  And as I opened my eyes, many people that I'm seeing, like you say- Hmm... are qualified way earlier than even I was when I walked in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Had a counselor who was 15 or something when he got sober. Wow.
• 3:36
  And I mean, and he'd been that way for 15 years. Yeah. He had like 15, 20 years when- Yeah... when I had first known him. Yeah. Uh, so it's, yeah, it's, it's crazy how quickly it can work in some people. Mm-hmm.
• 3:47
  And drugs certainly accelerated it- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... uh, for me. Yeah. And maybe like part of that, part of that cause is, is just like, um, earlier ages of exposure, you know, to drugs, to alcohol- Yeah...
• 4:01
  to like gateway substances. Um, you know, maybe that's, maybe that's a piece of it. "As we look back, we feel we have gone on drinking many years beyond the point where we could quit on our own willpower.
• 4:16
  If anyone questions whether he has entered this dangerous area, let him try leaving liquor alone for one year. If he is a real alcoholic and very far advanced, there is scant chance of success.
• 4:27
  In the early days of our drinking, we occasionally remained sober for a year or more, becoming serious drinkers again later. Though you may be able to stop for a considerable period, you may yet be a potential alcoholic.
• 4:41
  We think few to whom this book will appeal can stay dry anything like a year. Some will be drunk the day after making their resolutions, most of them within a few weeks." Uh, do you remember,
• 4:54
  what was the name of that bar down-- The Recovery Room? No. I- Do you remember that? Only from people talking about it. Yeah. I think it was closed when I got down there- Okay... or just a memory at that point.
• 5:09
  That was the most demented thing- You, you give them a chip, right? Yes. To get a drink. That anybody could do. Yeah. [chuckles] I mean, it's right down the street from- Yeah... like the sobriety clubhouse. Yeah.
• 5:24
  And they'd give you a free drink for your white chip. Yeah. They give you a free beer. You walk in the Recovery Room with your white chip- Yeah... and they give you a drink. Make yourself comfortable. How about that?
• 5:36
  [chuckles] I mean, that's just terrible. It's sick, dude. People are awful. Yes. Can you imagine those dudes? If you were out there and you owned that, give me a call. I'd love to hear from you.
• 5:44
  [chuckles] I'd just love to know why you thought that was a, something that was awesome to do. Um, yeah, like, so what did you say you got clean for that first time? How long? Oh, couple months. Couple months. Yeah.
• 6:02
  Yeah. I think, I think 30 days after I got out or something like that. Yeah. And why did you go back out? I got miserable. I remember where I was sitting. It was on a Sunday morning in the church parking lot.
• 6:13
  I was in my car just like, "Ugh," just needed relief. Mm. Uh, 'cause I was, I was going to some meetings to appease my parents. I was back living with my parents. Mm-hmm. And I was just empty completely.
• 6:29
  It, it, it was the most, um... I, I've never felt that empty like so acutely before. Mm. Um, and nothing was going on. Like, I didn't have any... N- n- nothing was going on. It was just this spiritual void. Mm. That...
• 6:47
  And I didn't know that at the time. I just felt abysmally terrible. Mm. And, and, uh, as a result, the wheels start turning, and it's like, "Well, I guess I could, like, go use again." Mm-hmm. "'Cause that was fun."
• 7:01
  Mm-hmm. "And I've been clean for a month, so I won't be hooked on it immediately." Mm-hmm. "So I can control and enjoy my drinking." Mm-hmm. Back to the great obsession. Mm-hmm. Why do you think,
• 7:15
  why do you think it took 30 days to get to that place? I don't know. 'Cause those days were a blur of exiting treatment and then that day. Mm-hmm.
• 7:28
  And I don't know if it was the next day or the next week where I actually took action on it, but it was- Sure... sure- shortly thereafter. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause some people, it's the day they get out of treatment, right?
• 7:38
  Right. Right, right. Um, and, and I remember, I remember I drank with a couple of the guys that I was in treatment with. Mm. You know, they went out before I did. Mm-hmm. And we had kept up for those few weeks. Mm-hmm.
• 7:49
  And it was like, "Oh, yeah, come on over. We're drinking." [laughs] You know? Um, I don't know why it took- Yeah... those weeks.
• 7:56
  I, I think I, I think for me I was, there was a certain amount of limbo going on 'cause I, I knew... I mean, hell, I was in a church parking lot at that. I was in between services at Cedar Springs. Yeah.
• 8:08
  So I was, like, still just on the fringe of, "Man, I know what the right things are, but I'm just not willing to hop back in there." Mm-hmm. Not willing.
• 8:18
  And so I don't wanna go the other way, but I'm so miserable in between- Yeah... that I g- you know, I gotta go one way or the other. Yeah. I just went the other way for a bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.
• 8:31
  When I reflect on that, like when I got out of COPEH, the period between leaving COPEH and when I drank again, so it was probably... What would that have been? About four years- Mm-hmm...
• 8:49
  you know, of nothing. Um, like what we, what led me back to it, and I think it was just like this lack of, like, self-worth, this lack of self-esteem, and sort of loneliness.
• 9:06
  And kind of what you were alluding to, like this almost this meaninglessness and purposelessness. Mm-hmm. This like, "Why does it matter?" kind of thing. You know, it's not that big a deal.
• 9:18
  I'm not smoking crack this time. Mm-hmm. It's not, "What's the problem?" You know? But why didn't I... Yeah, I mean, if I ask myself the same question, "Why, why did it take four years?" I don't really know.
• 9:36
  You know, and I've never thought about the timing of- Mm-hmm... the bulk of my heavy drinking and using was in the last, my senior year of high school. Mm-hmm. And then really escalated the year after that. Mm-hmm.
• 9:53
  And then when I got sober that brief time, that was in 2000... So that was summer of '02. So that was the summer after my first semester at, I was at Pellissippi. Mm-hmm.
• 10:09
  And when you said the loneliness piece of that, I think that may have been a, a pretty large component that I never really put my finger on.
• 10:19
  Because the bulk of my friend group from Farragut was off doing what you do after Farragut. [laughs] Right. Which is go to UT or somewhere else. Mm-hmm. And, you know, living that college life. Mm-hmm. And I was
• 10:34
  not only in limbo between the sober and the drunk world, the Christian and the secular world- Mm... but also the, uh, the school. Mm-hmm.
• 10:44
  Like the actual, you know, I'm at this point in, in life, a pretty pivotal moment between high school and college. Pretty much, like, not going in the right direction there. Yeah. Not making any, uh, m- good choices.
• 10:58
  Yeah, yeah. I, I just never thought of that before, but. Oh, yeah. I mean, I can remember being lonely as fuck. Mm-hmm. You know, I had a single bedroom apartment. Mm-hmm. You know, and not really any friends
• 11:11
  in Mississippi at that time. You know, I think I'd... It was around when I'd, uh, enrolled at Belhaven to start school. Mm-hmm. And it was like, "How do I make friends?" Bingo. I'm freaking, I'm so weird.
• 11:25
  Like, I'm in class. I think I said this last time. [laughs] I'm in class with a bunch of, like, 18-year-olds. [laughs] 19-year-olds, and I'm like freaking, like, 27. Yeah. Like, "Ugh, is it good?" You know. Yeah.
• 11:36
  But yeah, I think there was just this, like, unbearable weight of just feeling lonely and just, "How do I make friends?" Which that's why I'd say it piggybacks self-worth and self-esteem. Mm-hmm.
• 11:50
  If I had seen worth in, in, in myself, then I wouldn't have had to resort to those measures to make friends. Mm. You know?
• 11:59
  And how much of living sober today with a long track record of exactly that has built up that self-worth? Right. 'Cause I look back- Right, right, right...
• 12:09
  I mean, at all these intervals where I didn't have it in my life. Mm-hmm. And I relapsed and, and went back, and then got sober again. There's a long period of... But then- Mm-hmm...
• 12:20
  like in the meat and potatoes of living well, pretty well sober. You build up that field of relationship around you and you become insulated. It's like the adage, have you heard this one about AA?
• 12:36
  It's better to be, AA is like a submarine. It's better to be in the middle rather than on the outside of it. We got to, you love that. We got to insulate ourselves though.
• 12:50
  Like we're screwed if we're not, if we don't have others. And that doesn't mean like you got to be extroverted and the popular crowd type of thing from back in the school days. But how we need
• 13:07
  confidants and trusted allies who really are allies. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, as you, I think that's a great point.
• 13:15
  Like even as you're saying that, I'm reflecting on my friendships during that period of time at Belhaven and the friendships I have now. Am I even friends with any of those people that I used to like drink with?
• 13:31
  Yeah, yeah. They were like the sole reason why I started back drinking again. No. Yeah. None. Zero. Zero. Zero. It's telling. Yeah, totally. Totally.
• 13:47
  You know, the most meaningful relationships I've ever made are when I'm a sober man. And they are because of like the bonds that I make when I'm drinking with people. Right. You know. I lost our place. Where are we?
• 14:03
  For those- I think the middle of 34. Yeah, for those who are unable to drink moderately, the question is how to stop altogether. We are assuming, of course, that the reader desires to stop.
• 14:14
  Whether such a person can quit upon a non-spiritual basis depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not. Many of us felt that we had plenty of character.
• 14:27
  There was a tremendous urge to cease forever, yet we found it impossible. This is the baffling feature of alcoholism as we know it, this utter inability to leave it alone no matter how great the necessity or the wish.
• 14:42
  How then shall we help our readers determine to their own satisfaction whether they are one of us?
• 14:47
  The experiment of quitting for a period of time will be helpful, but we think we can render an even greater service to alcoholic sufferers and perhaps to the medical fraternity.
• 14:58
  So we shall describe some of the mental states that precede a relapse into drinking, for obviously this is the crux of the problem.
• 15:06
  What sort of thinking dominates an alcoholic who repeats time after time the desperate experiment of the first drink?
• 15:13
  Friends who have reasoned with him after a spree which has brought him to the point of divorce or bankruptcy are mystified when he walks directly into a saloon. Why does he? Of what is he thinking?
• 15:26
  Our first example is a friend we shall call Jim. This man has a charming wife and family. He inherited a lucrative automobile agency. He had a commendable World War record. He is a good salesman. Everybody likes him.
• 15:40
  He is an intelligent man, normal so far as we can see, except for a nervous disposition. He did no drinking until he was 35. In a few years, he became so violent when intoxicated that he had to be committed.
• 15:54
  On leaving the asylum, he came into contact with us. We told him what we knew of alcoholism and the answer we had found. He made a beginning.
• 16:02
  His family was reassembled, and he began to work as a salesman for the business he had lost through drinking. All went well for a time, but he failed to enlarge his spiritual life.
• 16:14
  To his consternation, he found himself drunk half a dozen times in rapid succession. On each of these occasions, we worked with him, reviewing carefully what had happened.
• 16:24
  He agreed he was a real alcoholic and in a serious condition. He knew he faced another trip to the asylum if he kept on. Moreover, he would lose his family for whom he had a deep affection. Yet, he got drunk again.
• 16:38
  We asked him to tell us exactly how it happened. This is his story. I came to work on Tuesday morning. I remember I felt irritated that I had to be a salesman for a concern I once owned.
• 16:51
  I had a few words with the boss, but nothing serious. Then I decided to drive into the country and see one of my prospects for a car. On the way, I felt hungry, so I stopped at a roadside place where they have a bar.
• 17:04
  I had no intention of drinking. I just thought I would get a sandwich. I also had the notion that I might find a customer for a car at this place, which was familiar for I had been going to it for years.
• 17:16
  I had eaten there many times during the months I was sober. I sat down at the table and ordered a sandwich and a glass of milk. Still no thought of drinking.
• 17:25
  I ordered another sandwich and decided to have another glass of milk. Suddenly, the thought crossed my mind that if I were to put an ounce of whiskey in my milk, it couldn't hurt me on such a full stomach.
• 17:37
  I ordered a whiskey and poured it into the milk. I vaguely sensed I was not being any too smart, but felt reassured as I was taking the whiskey on a full stomach.
• 17:47
  The experiment went so well that I ordered another whiskey and poured it into more milk. That didn't seem to bother me, so I tried another. Thus started one more journey to the asylum for Jim.
• 17:59
  Here was the threat of commitment, the loss of family and position, to say nothing of that intense mental and physical suffering which drinking always cost him.
• 18:09
  He had much knowledge about himself as an alcoholic, yet all reasons for not drinking were easily pushed aside in favor of the foolish idea that he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk.
• 18:21
  Whatever the precise definition of the word may be, we call this plain insanity. How can such a lack of proportion of the ability to think straight be called anything else?
• 18:33
  Uh, okay, so here's what I think is kind of funny about that too, um, is it's absolutely ludicrous. It sounds like something one of my clients would tell me. Like, for real. Like, "Oh, you know, I was hungry.
• 18:47
  I just, you know, I was, you know, a little pissed at the boss that morning, but, like, whatever. It was nothing. It wasn't that big a deal. So I just hopped in my car by myself
• 18:55
  and, uh, drove out to do some business, drove out to the country to do a little business. You know, and, and, you know, I mean, there's a bar, okay? But they got food. They got great food. I love the food there."
• 19:06
  Sandwiches are great. It's not about the bar. Top-notch sandwich. The bar doesn't bother me. I'm just there for the food, you know? 'Cause yeah, their burgers are amazing. Mm-hmm.
• 19:15
  So I just stopped in, you know, like, whatever. It's not that big a deal. Sat at the bar and had a-- 'cause I was by myself. There's no reason to get a table to sit by myself, so I sat at the bar.
• 19:23
  [laughs] Yeah, but I wasn't gonna drink anyway. That's ridiculous. I'm there for the burgers, you know, and the milk. You know, 'cause milk's amazing, right? Cold milk.
• 19:30
  You know, and then, and like, what-whatever, I'm full. You know? It's not gonna hit me like it usually hits because I'm full, and I'm chasing it with milk, which is probably a great idea, you know? But it does.
• 19:42
  Like, it just reads as this just absurd- You-... just litany It's like an episode of Seinfeld, man. Totally.
• 19:52
  You know, all these rationalizations and minimizations and justifications and all the -izations that they're using, that all of us use to get into that addictive cycle, you know, and really kick this baby off.
• 20:08
  Um, I don't know, man. I just, I, I, I just find that just to be absolutely absurd. Yeah. It's absurd. You know, the book uses the word insanity for a good reason.
• 20:18
  Well, it's, it's all this trouble to get to what we were really after- Mm-hmm... which is we had another, we had another. Oh, this went so well, I'll have another. Mm-hmm.
• 20:27
  It's like, a-at a certain point, at one of those anothers- Mm... you realize, "Oh yeah, th-this is what I was after." Mm-hmm. "Well, why don't we just cut to the chase here?" Exactly. Exactly.
• 20:39
  You knew what you were doing- Mm-hmm... when you pulled up. Actually, you knew what you were doing when you left the store. Yep.
• 20:48
  Like, the plan was already in place when you left the store, you know, when you were bitter at the, at the, at the boss. All right. So did I already say that? No, I didn't. You may think this is an extreme case.
• 21:05
  Wait, I did read that, didn't I? No, that's where you're at. No. Okay. You may think this is an extreme case. To us it is not far-fetched, for this kind of thinking has been characteristic of every single one of us.
• 21:15
  We have sometimes reflected more than Jim did upon the consequences, but there was always the curious mental phenomenon of that parallel with our sound reasoning.
• 21:24
  There inevitably ran some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Our sound reasoning failed to hold us in check. The insane idea won out.
• 21:34
  The next day we would ask ourselves, in all earnestness and sincerity, how it could have happened.
• 21:41
  And I, I think, I think this is true, that if I pit my sound reasoning against this insane idea, the insane idea wins every time. Mm. And, and that's part of- Mm-hmm...
• 21:55
  I think that goes back to the statement you highlighted last time about, let me read it again, if we're planning to stop drinking, there must be no reservation of any kind. Mm-hmm. No lurking motion.
• 22:06
  Uh, n-no lurking notion. Mm-hmm. This sort of hints back at that to me, that my disease of alcoholism is gonna win if I give it the ring. Mm-hmm. If it's in there fighting me- Mm-hmm... I'm going down. Mm-hmm.
• 22:23
  And so I, I just can't fight it. Mm-hmm. And that's where the- Right... admission of powerlessness ends up saving our asses. That's right. Because i-if we go in the ring- Mm-hmm... we cannot win. Mm-hmm. We just can't.
• 22:36
  Mm-hmm. At a certain point, maybe we could have. Maybe there's some people who haven't crossed the line yet, and it discusses that. Mm-hmm. And it's worth some experimentation.
• 22:45
  It's worth a black eye, uh, to find that out. But when you get past that, it's like, "Yeah, I'm screwed." Right. The-these are nothing but insanely trivial- Right... uh, crazy ideas. Yeah. Love that. I think that's...
• 22:59
  Yeah. Uh, in some, in some circumstances, we have gone out deliberately to get drunk, feeling ourselves justified by nervousness, anger, worry, depression, jealousy, or the like.
• 23:11
  But even in this type of beginning, we are obliged to admit that our justification for a spree was insanely insufficient in the light of what always happened.
• 23:20
  We now see that when we began to drink deliberately instead of casually, there was little serious or effective thought during the period of premeditation of what the terrific consequences might be.
• 23:33
  Our behavior is as absurd and incomprehensible with respect to the first drink as that of an individual with a passion, say, for jaywalking. He gets a thrill out of skipping in front of fast-moving vehicles.
• 23:44
  He enjoys himself for a few years in spite of friendly warnings. Up to this point, you would label him as a foolish chap having queer ideas about fun.
• 23:54
  Luck then deserts him, and he is slightly injured several times in succession. You would expect him, if he were normal, to cut it out. Presently, he is hit again, and this time has a fractured skull.
• 24:06
  Within a week after leaving the hospital, a fast-moving trolley car breaks his arm. He tells you he has decided to stop jaywalking for good, but in a few weeks he breaks both legs.
• 24:17
  On through the years, this conduct continues, accompanied by his continual promises to be careful or to keep off the streets altogether. Finally, he can no longer work.
• 24:26
  His wife gets a divorce, and he is held up to ridicule. He tries every known means to get the jaywalking idea out of his head. He shuts himself up in an asylum, hoping to mend his ways.
• 24:38
  But the day he comes out, he races in front of a fire engine, which breaks his back. Such a man would be crazy, wouldn't he? You may think our illustration is too ridiculous, but is it?
• 24:49
  We who have been through the wringer have to admit if we substituted alcoholism for jaywalking, the illustration would fit us exactly. However intelligent we may have been in other respects,
• 25:01
  where alcohol has been involved, we have been strangely insane. It's strong language, but isn't it true? Uh, I would say, like, I think if you got, like, hit by a fire truck, I think it'd be curtains. Yeah.
• 25:17
  I don't think you'd just, like- Yeah... you know. I don't think you'd have, like, a fractured skull. You- you- I'm just saying...
• 25:23
  you're not just gonna have a broken back I'm just saying, I don't think you'd just break a back. Game over. Yeah. I think you'd be- Frogger loses that one. Yeah. I think it's curtains for you, bro.
• 25:31
  I think it's curtains for you. I don't know about that one. Mm. Um, is it too ridiculous of an illustration? It's pretty silly, but I think it fits, 'cause we do some freaking silly stuff to keep drinking. Yeah.
• 25:49
  Yeah. I mean, what's the difference? Like, you get hit by the car or you're driving the car? It's the same deal. It's the same game, and in a lot of cases it's worse- Right... as the alcoholic. Right.
• 26:01
  The, the stuff that we put ourselves and, to your point, others through- Mm-hmm... is infinitely worse than this, this jaywalking silliness. Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. Uh, all right, I'll finish off this paragraph.
• 26:16
  Yep. Some of you are thinking, yes, what you tell us is true, but it doesn't fully apply.
• 26:22
  We admit we have some of these symptoms, but we have not gone to the extremes you fellows did, nor are we likely to, for we understand ourselves so well after what you have told us that such things cannot happen again.
• 26:35
  We have not lost everything in life through drinking, and we certainly do not intend to. Thanks for the information. Yeah, it sort of hearkens to that idea, like how bad does it have to be, like rock bottom, that idea,
• 26:51
  uh, of like you have to hit rock bottom to, to truly get sober. I don't know that I buy that. Mm-mm. I don't think that's true. There's always a lower bottom. Right.
• 27:07
  And you can always stop falling if you choose to. Right. Right. That's why I've, I've, I've always thought, like, no, I mean, my life could have gotten worse. It's hard to imagine that it could have gotten worse- Mm...
• 27:19
  but it, it could have. And, and had I, had I waited any longer to try to get sober, uh, I mean, I would've probably been dead- Mm... and I wouldn't have had the opportunity. You know?
• 27:32
  So like, yeah, I don't, I don't know that you have to lose everything to begin this process. Um, and, uh, well, yeah, let me... We can wrap up with this 'cause I'm curious of this.
• 27:43
  Have you had anybody come to your meetings that are sober curious? Not that have said so. Okay. I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure people do that. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. It's a whole new movement. Like- Sober curious...
• 28:00
  sober curious. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sober. I'm sober curious. [laughs] I bet that's related to the, the stuff that, that I've seen on the internet and stuff with, uh, people getting sober for a little bit or- Mm...
• 28:13
  or moderating their drinking. Mm-hmm. Sober curious. Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know that I've ever spoken to somebody who's sober curious yet. Okay. I look forward to it. Do...
• 28:22
  Yeah, I mean, I just think that would be amazing. [laughs] Somebody goes to an open meeting- Yeah... you know, and they're like, "Oh, I'm just sober curious." Yeah. Like what the- What does that mean? [laughs]...
• 28:31
  the hell are you do- what are you talking about? What's wrong with you? You know? Like I'd love to see the people's reactions.
• 28:35
  So they're, they're trying to break the streak of, of nobody ever showing up to AA, to an AA meeting because they thought it'd be a good idea to go to an AA meeting. Uh-huh. Maybe that's not no longer true.
• 28:45
  [laughs] Exactly. Dang it. [laughs] That's true. Suddenly you got a little group of sober curious people that show up. "Hi, we're sober curious." [laughs] You know? Gosh. That's funny. All right.
• 28:58
  Always a pleasure, friend. Indeed, sir. Until next time. Hope you have a good one. Gonna try. If I can quit scratching. Yeah, you got some poison ivy, don't you, John? Yeah. It's pretty miserable. How about that?
• 29:11
  It's pretty miserable. [laughs] I hate poison ivy. I hate it. It's awful. It's what you get for being a runner. It's terrible. A trail runner. It's awful. Golly. It's awful. It's gotta go away soon, though.
• 29:20
  I mean, okay, so what, it happened Monday. Today's Thursday. Truly to God, it's gonna end soon. I'm sure you're almost at the end of it. I'm sure it's fine. Oh, sure.
• 29:29
  But I, I mean, look, and, and I do think it's, it's, it's stopped appearing at least. That's good. Yeah. You know there's hope when it stops. Yes. Oh, there's another patch. Yeah. It's, oh, crap.
• 29:38
  It's stopped emerging at least. [laughs] At least I'm to that place. It's now just, uh, dealing with the- Oh, so miserable... the impulse to scratch blood out of my skin. Yes. Yes. All right. Hey, thanks for listening.
• 29:51
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