Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #125 Your Kids Aren't Ready For Social Media (Featuring Sarah Coyne)

Transcript

#125 Your Kids Aren't Ready For Social Media (Featuring Sarah Coyne) · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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Speaker 1: Social media can we really beneficial and you can connect
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Speaker 1: with a variety of people in different countries and learn
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Speaker 1: things and all sorts of positives. But there's kind of
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Speaker 1: a darker negative side, and when you're age eleven, twelve, thirteen, again,
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Speaker 1: you're just not ready to navigate kind of the mind
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Speaker 1: field of social media by yourself.
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Speaker 2: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a Happy
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Speaker 2: Families podcast. And my name is doctor Justin Coulson. I'm
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Speaker 2: a dad to six daughters, a husband of one wife,
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Speaker 2: something like twenty two twenty three years of marriage. Now
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Speaker 2: I should get that right, otherwise I'll get in trouble
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Speaker 2: if Kylie listens. And the author of six books about
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Speaker 2: raising happy families, my guest on this Parenting in Perspective
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Speaker 2: podcast today, has done some fascinating research around children's and
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Speaker 2: adolescents media use, or as a late person, my term
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Speaker 2: it kids and their screens. Professor Sarah Coyne works in
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Speaker 2: the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University in
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Speaker 2: Utah and has over one hundred scholarly publications of her
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Speaker 2: academic and research work. She's particularly interested in traditional and
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Speaker 2: social media, as well as aggression, gender, and children's development.
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Speaker 2: As a speaker, professor, Coyn runs workshops for families and
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Speaker 2: teenagers about.
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Speaker 3: Using media in positive ways, and she's.
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Speaker 2: Produced a video series about social media literacy. For this interview,
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Speaker 2: I began by asking Sarah why she loves researching our kids'
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Speaker 2: media usage, and also, as always about her family life.
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Speaker 1: Academically, I have studied the impact that media has on
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Speaker 1: children and families for about the last twenty years, and
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Speaker 1: it's been fascinating because media has changed so dramatically during
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Speaker 1: that period of time. I have five children. They ranged
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Speaker 1: from three years old up to fifteen years old, four
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Speaker 1: boys and one girl, and they definitely keep me on
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Speaker 1: my toes for sure.
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Speaker 3: Amazing.
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Speaker 2: Now, now you mentioned with your research, media has changed
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Speaker 2: in the last twenty years, can you describe a bit
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Speaker 2: about what you've found from an evidence point of view.
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Speaker 2: I mean, when I sit here and think about what
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Speaker 2: I've seen happen, I feel like media has become coarser.
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Speaker 2: I feel like there's a greater acceptance of what would
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Speaker 2: have been in the nineteen nineties called vulgarity or course
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Speaker 2: language or explicit material. And I think that the whole
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Speaker 2: cable TV and Netflix and all that sort of thing
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Speaker 2: has probably exacerbated that.
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Speaker 3: But what else are you seeing in terms of the
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Speaker 3: change in media?
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Speaker 2: It's not just standards, obviously it's the Internet as well,
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Speaker 2: but what's really stood out to you from an evidence
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Speaker 2: point of view?
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Speaker 1: So from a content standpoint, there's definitely evidence of reading's creep.
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Speaker 1: So that's the idea that you can get more and
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Speaker 1: more gritty content in say in America, it's like a
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Speaker 1: PG or a PG thirteen movie that previously would have
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Speaker 1: been rated from much older audience, and so we're seeing
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Speaker 1: more vile lens, more sex, more vulgarity aim toward a
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Speaker 1: younger audience. So in terms of content, right, it's changing.
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Speaker 1: But then just in terms of like the devices that
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Speaker 1: we use. I remember when I was like twenty one
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Speaker 1: years old and I think my husband got me a
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Speaker 1: cell phone and I said, why would I ever use this? Like,
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Speaker 1: why would I ever need to text you? I'll just
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Speaker 1: call you from my office phone, right, And he's like,
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Speaker 1: come on, you study media? What is wrong with you? Right?
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Speaker 1: So clearly we got on board with that one. And
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Speaker 1: just the accessibility, the portability of media has just increased dramatically,
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Speaker 1: and so we are living with computers in our pockets
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Speaker 1: from a very young age. So the evidence suggests that
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Speaker 1: first smartphone ownership is about age ten right now, so
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Speaker 1: really really young age. We are living with these little
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Speaker 1: devices and computers in our hand at almost all times.
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Speaker 2: So when you say first smartphone ownership is around age ten,
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Speaker 2: this is fascinating to me because one of the most
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Speaker 2: common questions I get from people who are watching following
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Speaker 2: listening is what's the right age for my child to
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Speaker 2: get a mobile phone? And I've traditionally I've always said, well,
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Speaker 2: kids don't need smartphones, they need smart parents, and smart
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Speaker 2: parents get their kids dumb phones. But it's increasingly hard
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Speaker 2: to buy a dumb phone. Every phone is a smartphone now,
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Speaker 2: so that advice is kind of a little bit dated.
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Speaker 2: I'm curious, though, what's your response when someone says the
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Speaker 2: right age?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I get asked that question all the time as well,
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Speaker 1: and I always say, it depends on the child. Sure,
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Speaker 1: So you can have a really responsible twelve thirteen year
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Speaker 1: old that could handle some smartphone capacity pretty well, and
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Speaker 1: then another twelve thirteen year old there would be an
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Speaker 1: utter disaster.
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Speaker 3: I know some adults to utter disasters with their smartphones.
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Speaker 1: So right, yeah, exactly. So developmentally a ten eleven twelve
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Speaker 1: year old is simply not ready for a smartphone. They're
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Speaker 1: not ready to have the power of unfettered access to
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Speaker 1: the inner in their hand. And so I already like,
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Speaker 1: and this is what I do with my own children,
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Speaker 1: right to start slow, you know, with an old phone
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Speaker 1: that doesn't have much Internet capability, and then just gradually
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Speaker 1: release some sort of restriction and so by the time
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Speaker 1: there's you know, seventeen or eighteen, they're kind of full
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Speaker 1: fledged and then you launch them. But if you give
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Speaker 1: them that responsibility empowered age ten, they're just not developmentally
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Speaker 1: ready to handle it, and so you'll have a lot
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Speaker 1: of errors, big problems, big conflict and so on.
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Speaker 2: We're not going to say that one thing is guaranteed
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Speaker 2: to happen over another, but obviously you've got hesitation from
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Speaker 2: the data that you're looking at in letting children have
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Speaker 2: their phones at ten, eleven, twelve years of age, maybe
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Speaker 2: even thirteen. What kinds of issues have you seen arise
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Speaker 2: in your data that would make a parent want to
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Speaker 2: pause and consider going a little slowly.
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Speaker 1: There's so many different directions we could go with this.
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Speaker 1: The thing that comes to mind is social media. So
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Speaker 1: we use our phones for a lot of social media, right,
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Speaker 1: And a lot of young kids are on social media,
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Speaker 1: and social media can be really beneficial and you can
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Speaker 1: connect with a variety of people in different countries and
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Speaker 1: learn things and all sorts of positives, but there's a
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Speaker 1: lot there's kind of a darker negative side, right, So
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Speaker 1: you can have high cyberbullying, high social comparisons, high levels
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Speaker 1: of feeling like you're invisible or you're constantly excluded, and
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Speaker 1: when you're age eleven, twelve thirteen, again, you're just not
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Speaker 1: ready to navigate kind of the mind field of social
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Speaker 1: media by yourself. Even in adulthood, we still have trouble,
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Speaker 1: right with social media and certain activities, and so it's
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Speaker 1: really about scaffolding how to use social media and phones
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Speaker 1: in general to make them work for you as opposed
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Speaker 1: to your basically being a slave to them.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 2: And when you've got to twelve year old, it's just
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Speaker 2: all about the phone and not with my children is
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Speaker 2: when they've got their device on them, and we've taken
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Speaker 2: a very slowly slowly approach. We have one phone that
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Speaker 2: we call the family phone, and all of the children
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Speaker 2: get to share that on an as needs basis until
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Speaker 2: they're old enough to pay for their own phone. My
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Speaker 2: advice to parents has always been, if your kids want
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Speaker 2: a smartphone, they can have one when they can afford themselves.
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Speaker 2: And so as my kids have gotten older and they've
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Speaker 2: gone and gotten jobs, you know, age fifteen, sixteen, seventeen,
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Speaker 2: that's when they've gone and purchased their own devices, and
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Speaker 2: they're primarily responsible for them in accordance with the way
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Speaker 2: we operate devices in our home, according to our family
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Speaker 2: principles and rules, and that's worked very, very well for us.
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Speaker 2: But what I watch is when these younger kids have
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Speaker 2: got the family phone, if it goes thing, they that they.
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Speaker 3: Run for it.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's like, oh, my goodness, somebody's sent a message.
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Speaker 2: It's so rewarding to get that message. And then there's
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Speaker 2: an instant compulsion and an absolute need to respond immediately responses.
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Speaker 2: You can't go to somebody, you can't let it take
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Speaker 2: five minutes or ten minutes or or a day before
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Speaker 2: you get back to them. You've got to get back
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Speaker 2: to them right away so that they know that the
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Speaker 2: relationship is intact. And then all of a sudden there's
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Speaker 2: this snowball effect where they can't get off and they've
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Speaker 2: got to check this, and they've got to check that.
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Speaker 2: I mean even adults go down that particular rabbit hole.
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Speaker 2: It's a really compulsive sense that they have where they
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Speaker 2: feel like they need to be on that device.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. So something that I study quite intently is media addiction.
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Speaker 1: And so that could be a video game addiction, or
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Speaker 1: social media addiction, or cell phone addiction or the three
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Speaker 1: that are most predominantly studied. And most people are okay
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Speaker 1: and they don't develop addiction, but about eight to ten
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Speaker 1: percent video gamers or users of social media or fill
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Speaker 1: in the blank, develop this pathological relationship with media where you're,
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Speaker 1: like you said, right, it's this compulsion I have to
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Speaker 1: check it, I have to be on it. I'm sitting here,
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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the next time I can play my
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Speaker 1: game or I can get on Twitter or whatever. And
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Speaker 1: something that our lab is doing right now. And I
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Speaker 1: wish I had the answer for you, But we're trying
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Speaker 1: to find out the root of a media addiction. Historically,
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Speaker 1: research has just examined it once it's already present, and
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Speaker 1: so we're starting from a very young age. Actually, like
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Speaker 1: birth right and following kids over time to try to
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Speaker 1: figure out what is our relationship early on in the
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Speaker 1: you know, in middle childhood and early childhood and that
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Speaker 1: early adolescence that then shapes your relationship with media over time.
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Speaker 2: So that sounds like it'd be like, what a fifteen
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Speaker 2: eighteen year study that you're in process of collecting data?
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Speaker 2: What kinds of things would you have to be looking
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Speaker 2: at to work that out? Of you looking at the
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Speaker 2: way parents are engaging with their children, how much media
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Speaker 2: is available in the home, their environment, what kinds of
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Speaker 2: things is sort of the variables of interest.
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Speaker 1: So many different things that we're looking at the study
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Speaker 1: we'und way for right now. And something that I'm really
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Speaker 1: excited about looking at is we call it media emotion regulation. So,
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Speaker 1: and you've seen it before and you've probably done it before.
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Speaker 1: It is some capacity. Right, you've got a kid, they're
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Speaker 1: at the grocery store, they're flipping out, they're tantruming, and
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Speaker 1: you're like, oh my gosh, just stop, here's a phone, right,
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Speaker 1: Or you're at a restaurant or anywhere. And our hypothesis
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Speaker 1: is that when parents are regularly regulating their children's emotions
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Speaker 1: for them with the device kids struggled to learn how
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Speaker 1: to cope with strong feelings in the real world without
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Speaker 1: the help of media. So they're really relying on me
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Speaker 1: as a coping mechanism, which then could lead to perhaps
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Speaker 1: addiction later on. So that's something that we're exploring right now. Again,
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Speaker 1: I don't have any results for you because we're only
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Speaker 1: on the way four, but you know, anecdotally and theoretically,
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Speaker 1: you'd expect that to be related.
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Speaker 3: Wow.
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Speaker 2: So if a child is not able to regulate for THEMS,
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Speaker 2: they're relying on that external contingency of having the device
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Speaker 2: in their hand to soothe them and take their mind
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Speaker 2: away from the big emotions that are welling up inside them.
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Speaker 2: It seems like that leads them to rely on tech
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Speaker 2: as a coping mechanism or perhaps as an escape. So
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Speaker 2: once they're in their adolescent years, they just gravitate to it.
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Speaker 2: It's where they get their peace, it's where they get
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Speaker 2: their soothing, it's where they feel calm and back in control.
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Speaker 3: They feel a sense of relatedness.
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Speaker 2: To whoever they're gaming with or connecting with, and that
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Speaker 2: solves their problem in the short term.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in fact, those types of items are on
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Speaker 1: media addiction measures in adolescents and adulthood, and so we're
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Speaker 1: trying to see if there's kind of a childhood route
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Speaker 1: to some of those.
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Speaker 3: Well, Sarah, I'm really curious.
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Speaker 2: I mean, we could write a dozen or more books
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Speaker 2: about all the research that you've done in so many areas,
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Speaker 2: but this whole media addiction thing is fascinating to me.
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Speaker 2: I'd like to explore your insights in a range of
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Speaker 2: those areas if we can. Now, So a two part
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Speaker 2: question for you. What have you found when it comes
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Speaker 2: to a couple of things. First, what are the associations
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Speaker 2: between children's media use and their well being, So the
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Speaker 2: quality of their relationships, their physical health, how they're sleeping,
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Speaker 2: academic outcomes, choices around what's safe and healthy and what's not.
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Speaker 2: So just general associations with media use. I mean, most
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Speaker 2: of us are fairly familiar that it's not a great
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Speaker 2: news story, but I'm sure that there's some interesting things
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Speaker 2: that you've found that would really be informative for parents.
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Speaker 2: And the second part of this is you've done some
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Speaker 2: research with Laura Walker, one of your colleagues at Brigham
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Speaker 2: Young University, and you specifically looked at the influence of
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Speaker 2: parents in relation to the way children are using media.
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Speaker 2: So I'd love to know what you've found that can
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Speaker 2: be helpful for parents to do and know when it
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Speaker 2: comes to managing these challenges around tech.
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Speaker 1: Okay, good questions, prefounser, So you're in your part one.
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Speaker 1: It absolutely depends on the way you use it. And
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Speaker 1: so we often think screens are bad for kids. And
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Speaker 1: that's a predominant message that I'm hearing right now. Right, So,
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Speaker 1: screens are responsible for the mental health crisis at least
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Speaker 1: in America. Screens are responsible for the increase in suicide
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Speaker 1: that's happening. You know, screens are bad.
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Speaker 2: How much of that comes from the work of Gene Twain,
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Speaker 2: guy at San Diego Rot. She's written that book about
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Speaker 2: odgen and she's said, in twenty twelve, we reached this
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Speaker 2: tipping point where more kids had screens than not, and
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Speaker 2: screen usage went up, and they stopped being outside and
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Speaker 2: they stopped doing all those things. And I mean, it's
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Speaker 2: pretty compelling research, but that's the narrative screens bad exactly.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'll just share I'll share the results of
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Speaker 1: one recent study. So we looked at time spent on
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Speaker 1: social media and depression and anxiety over a six year
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Speaker 1: period of time across adolescence and emerging adulthood, and we
13:43
Speaker 1: wanted to find out, you know, if I'm increasing in
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Speaker 1: my use of social media time, does my depression and
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Speaker 1: anxiety get worse? And maybe if I'm decreasing in my
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Speaker 1: time spent with social media, maybe my depression and anxiety
13:54
Speaker 1: will get better because research hasn't looked at it with
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Speaker 1: that longer view. So when we did that, we found
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Speaker 1: that there was absolutely no effect of screen time on
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Speaker 1: mental health over a long period of time.
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Speaker 2: Can I just chime in and ask you've I feel
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Speaker 2: like there's two things that you're talking about here. You've
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Speaker 2: mentioned that you're looking at social media, but then you
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Speaker 2: just mentioned there's no effective screen time and social media
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Speaker 2: is part of screen time, but screen time is much
14:19
Speaker 2: bigger than social media. So can I just get some
14:21
Speaker 2: clarity in that specific finding. Are you finding that the
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Speaker 2: social media is not having is not showing any relationship
14:28
Speaker 2: with those depressive or anxiety symptoms, or are you saying
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Speaker 2: that overall screen time but maybe social media does good
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Speaker 2: clarification question.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that study was specifically on social media, right,
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Speaker 1: And it makes sense when you think about it because
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Speaker 1: there's all sorts of things you can do on social media.
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Speaker 1: So let's say you and me spend an hour on
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Speaker 1: social media, right, So the time is identical, but what
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Speaker 1: we're doing can be vastly different. There's some really cool
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Speaker 1: research on the distinction between passive and active use. So
14:56
Speaker 1: let's say that you're using your phone in a passive way, right,
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Speaker 1: you get on Instagram or Twitter, and you just scre
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Speaker 1: rolling and scrolling and scrolling. Coing to research, you're going
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Speaker 1: to be a little more depressed and anxious after that.
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Speaker 1: Let's say I spend my time and I'm using an
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Speaker 1: active way. So I'm posting myself, I'm commenting on other
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Speaker 1: people's posts, I'm liking I'm using it an active way.
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Speaker 1: Coin to research, my depressive symptoms actually go down. So like,
15:19
Speaker 1: as you see, it's not the time that necessarily matters
15:22
Speaker 1: in terms of this conversation, right, it's what you're doing
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Speaker 1: on it. So I think that we're missing we're just
15:28
Speaker 1: having the wrong conversations in society right now. So instead
15:32
Speaker 1: of just saying, you know, screens are bad, decrease screen
15:36
Speaker 1: time and things will get better, they actually won't. We
15:38
Speaker 1: have to empower and educate our youth on how to
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Speaker 1: use their screens in healthier ways, like one way that
15:46
Speaker 1: I just mentioned.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So there's an opportunity cost that comes with
15:50
Speaker 2: using a screen, right, So if you're on a screen,
15:52
Speaker 2: you're not outside being active and being healthy and hanging
15:55
Speaker 2: out with friends in that kind of thing. But then again,
15:56
Speaker 2: you can be on a screen. I talk about the
15:57
Speaker 2: three c's, right, So you've got consumption, connection, and creation.
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Speaker 2: So if we're using it purely for consumption, we're going
16:05
Speaker 2: to see a decrease in well being because we're just
16:07
Speaker 2: sitting there passively, like sitting on the couch eating ice
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Speaker 2: cream and watching a sad movie or something like that.
16:12
Speaker 2: Whereas if we're connecting with people, we're going to feel
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Speaker 2: great usually as long as it's a positive, socially constructive
16:19
Speaker 2: kind of connection.
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Speaker 3: And the same with creation.
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Speaker 2: If we're using our devices to create, that's usually going
16:24
Speaker 2: to leave us feeling better.
16:25
Speaker 3: We get into flow where we're developing, where we're doing
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Speaker 3: good things.
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Speaker 2: To me, the question has always been what kind rather
16:31
Speaker 2: than how much when it comes to screen time, much
16:34
Speaker 2: much more valuable conversation. Andrew Shabulski at Oxford talks about
16:38
Speaker 2: you don't sit down with the kids and say, all right, kids,
16:40
Speaker 2: how much food time have you had today? We don't
16:44
Speaker 2: ask them that, we ask what kind of food have
16:46
Speaker 2: you eaten today? And that's probably more aligned with the conversation.
16:49
Speaker 2: This is such a minefield, right, there's a big debate
16:51
Speaker 2: right now, does it or does it not cause depression
16:54
Speaker 2: and mental health disorder? And you're seeming to come down
16:57
Speaker 2: a very clear no, it does not, but it does
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Speaker 2: on what you're doing.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very much of it can when you're using
17:04
Speaker 1: it in the wrong way. Where I also think that
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Speaker 1: it might impact is when screens can interfere with sleep.
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Speaker 1: So sleep is vitally important as a protective factor for
17:16
Speaker 1: both depression and anxiety during adolescens, and so in terms
17:19
Speaker 1: of sheer time, that's the one area that I feel
17:22
Speaker 1: like maybe there's something going on here, right, So when
17:24
Speaker 1: it displaces time spent sleeping, and we know that many
17:29
Speaker 1: adolescents sleep with their phone in their room right next
17:32
Speaker 1: to their bed under their pillow, so they can hear
17:35
Speaker 1: a buzz, right, So it really does interfere with sleep.
17:38
Speaker 1: So that is something really to consider in terms of
17:40
Speaker 1: just the overall screen time debate there.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, So what do parents do?
17:44
Speaker 2: And I want to talk about young kids in a minute,
17:46
Speaker 2: but let's just talk about the adolescence the way discussing
17:50
Speaker 2: here in your research, what did your work with Laura
17:54
Speaker 2: Walk lead to a decision about what can parents do
17:57
Speaker 2: to mitigate or reduce the negative impacts that screens and
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Speaker 2: social media might have if they're using it too much
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Speaker 2: for consumption and not not the connection and creation.
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Speaker 1: So there's three broad areas of what we call p
18:10
Speaker 1: rental mediation of media. The first is called restrictive mediation,
18:16
Speaker 1: and that is the rules and regulations that parents set
18:19
Speaker 1: around media. And it's kind of hard, right your kids
18:23
Speaker 1: don't want any rules around media. They want to just
18:26
Speaker 1: have free reign. But what we know is that giving
18:30
Speaker 1: some sort of a structure helping your kids understand how
18:35
Speaker 1: to use these in effective ways is really important, especially
18:38
Speaker 1: early on. And ideally restrictive mediation is high in the
18:43
Speaker 1: younger years and then decreases over time. Then the second
18:47
Speaker 1: area is called active mediation, and those are the conversations
18:53
Speaker 1: that you have with your child around media and it helps.
18:57
Speaker 1: The purpose is to help them become a critical con
19:00
Speaker 1: consumer of what they're seeing on television or in their
19:03
Speaker 1: video game or in the interactions around social media. So
19:07
Speaker 1: basically you're kind of pre arming them, giving them tools
19:09
Speaker 1: that they need when they encounter or say, somebody who's
19:12
Speaker 1: being bullied on social media, where they see a really
19:16
Speaker 1: violent scene in a movie, right, and so, how can
19:19
Speaker 1: I think about this? How does this impact the way
19:21
Speaker 1: I think about the world, and so on. And then
19:25
Speaker 1: the third one is called co viewing or co playing,
19:28
Speaker 1: and this is particularly important really early on in life,
19:31
Speaker 1: during kind of toddler preschool age, but can be effective
19:35
Speaker 1: later on too. So that's basically when parents sit down
19:38
Speaker 1: and use media together with their child, and basically that
19:43
Speaker 1: just increases the effect, for positive or negative that media
19:49
Speaker 1: will have. So let's say that you're sitting there watching
19:51
Speaker 1: a really highly pro social film with your child, right,
19:54
Speaker 1: they tend to be more pro social after that. If
19:56
Speaker 1: you're watching a really violent film with your child and
19:58
Speaker 1: not talking about it at all, it's kind of implicit
20:02
Speaker 1: approval that violence is okay. So that last one you
20:07
Speaker 1: kind of have to pair it with that act of
20:09
Speaker 1: mediation that talking about the film to get it to
20:12
Speaker 1: have a real positive impact.
20:14
Speaker 3: So let's make this real life. What would a script
20:17
Speaker 3: look like?
20:18
Speaker 2: So you're sitting down and watching something with your your
20:22
Speaker 2: nine year old, and there's some content that comes up
20:24
Speaker 2: that's a little edgy for a nine year old.
20:27
Speaker 3: There's some things that you're concerned about. Maybe it's violent,
20:29
Speaker 3: Maybe there's a little bit.
20:30
Speaker 2: Of intimacy that's beyond what a nine year old would
20:36
Speaker 2: be comfortable with, or you're comfortable having your nine year
20:38
Speaker 2: old view. Maybe there's just some course language, and you've
20:42
Speaker 2: got some rules around how language is to be used
20:45
Speaker 2: in the home. What kind of a conversation do you have.
20:48
Speaker 2: Do you press pause on Netflix or on the DVD
20:52
Speaker 2: and have the conversation there, and then do you wait
20:54
Speaker 2: until the end of the movie. Do you talk about
20:57
Speaker 2: it the next day? Let them sort of sit on
20:59
Speaker 2: it and feel the discomfort, and what sort of a conversation.
21:02
Speaker 3: Do you have.
21:05
Speaker 1: What's really cool is that research shows that active mediation
21:08
Speaker 1: is effective in the moment before the film starts or
21:13
Speaker 1: after the film ends. And so I would just judge
21:18
Speaker 1: the moment itself, right, Maybe your kid does need to
21:20
Speaker 1: sit on it for a little while and percolate on it.
21:22
Speaker 1: Maybe you need to say something right then and there.
21:25
Speaker 1: So I would say it absolutely depends and then what
21:28
Speaker 1: that might look like in the moment. So I'll give
21:31
Speaker 1: you an example with my nine year olds. Actually have
21:33
Speaker 1: a nine year old right now. We just watched the
21:35
Speaker 1: last movie we watched together was Remember the Titans, which
21:40
Speaker 1: is a fantastic movie about race relations and football.
21:44
Speaker 3: Sing it with me, Sarah. Everywhere we go, people want
21:48
Speaker 3: to know, Yeah, it's very good. I love that movie.
21:51
Speaker 3: Great movie.
21:52
Speaker 1: It is a great movie. And so I'm in America
21:55
Speaker 1: right now and we're having huge protests over police violence
22:02
Speaker 1: aimed at black individuals, right, and so there's a lot
22:07
Speaker 1: of big information that's happening that's kind of hard for
22:11
Speaker 1: my younger kids to digest, and so we thought, you
22:14
Speaker 1: know what, one way to have these conversations is from media.
22:19
Speaker 1: So instead of showing him like CNN or something right
22:22
Speaker 1: that's kind of beyond his level, like, we're gonna watch
22:24
Speaker 1: Remember the Titans together and it's PG, right, so it's
22:29
Speaker 1: made for a younger audience, but there's some still gritty
22:32
Speaker 1: content and some things he was like, Oh why are
22:33
Speaker 1: they hitting each other? Or oh why are they saying
22:35
Speaker 1: those mean things to each other? And what it allowed
22:38
Speaker 1: us to do then is to have a really nice conversation,
22:41
Speaker 1: and we did it a little bit throughout, but mostly afterwards,
22:44
Speaker 1: and then we followed up kind of over that course
22:47
Speaker 1: of the week about how we treat people who maybe
22:51
Speaker 1: look different than us, or who think different than us,
22:54
Speaker 1: or who have a different religion than us, or so on.
22:56
Speaker 1: And it was able to spark some really nice conversations.
22:59
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's been a week or two
23:00
Speaker 1: and he just asked a question today. He remember that
23:03
Speaker 1: scene and remember the Titans, and he wanted to keep going,
23:05
Speaker 1: which I thought was fantastic. So media has that power
23:08
Speaker 1: if we let it.
23:09
Speaker 2: And I think what that story also does. It highlights
23:12
Speaker 2: that if we can be accessible, available, open to our children,
23:17
Speaker 2: they can actually come to us and have these conversations.
23:20
Speaker 2: But we've got to we've got to open the door
23:22
Speaker 2: and say, hey, let's let's do this. It sounds like
23:24
Speaker 2: he's responded so well to that.
23:27
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And we certainly do not watch all media together,
23:30
Speaker 1: and that's not realistic, right if five kids different ages
23:33
Speaker 1: and so on. But there's a little bit of an
23:35
Speaker 1: intentionality that goes into this to say, hey, you know,
23:39
Speaker 1: here's our we are going to watch together as a family.
23:41
Speaker 1: What are we going to watch now. Sometimes it's just
23:44
Speaker 1: for entertainment, but sometimes there's a deeper purpose, and I
23:47
Speaker 1: love that power of media for good when we allow
23:49
Speaker 1: it to happen.
23:50
Speaker 2: Sarah, one of the main reasons that I wanted to
23:52
Speaker 2: interview you was a study that you did a few
23:54
Speaker 2: years ago. It caught my eye, and in fact, that's
23:56
Speaker 2: that's how I discovered who you were as a researcher
23:58
Speaker 2: and began to follow your research a little more carefully.
24:02
Speaker 2: You looked at this superhero study and it was with
24:06
Speaker 2: young children, I think from memory it was four five
24:08
Speaker 2: six year olds or thereabouts, which I would have thought
24:11
Speaker 2: was probably a little on the young end to be
24:13
Speaker 2: watching some of those superhero Marvel movies that are sometimes
24:17
Speaker 2: a little violent, but obviously a lot of parents are
24:19
Speaker 2: really comfortable with that. And so you've studied how children
24:23
Speaker 2: respond to their interaction with those superhero characters and those movies.
24:27
Speaker 3: Can you tell us a bit about that research and
24:28
Speaker 3: what you found.
24:30
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, that was such a fun study to do.
24:32
Speaker 1: So we looked at engagement with superhero culture, so it
24:35
Speaker 1: involved identification with superhero characters, playing with superhero toys, and
24:38
Speaker 1: then watching superhero media. And like you said, I didn't
24:42
Speaker 1: expect a ton of four year olds to be watching
24:44
Speaker 1: those Marvel movies, but there's quite a few that do. Right,
24:48
Speaker 1: it's pretty high. And we were looking at a couple
24:52
Speaker 1: of different things, but I'm really interested in defending behavior.
24:56
Speaker 1: So this is somebody who's watching somebody getting picked on,
24:59
Speaker 1: on the player getting bullied, and a defender is somebody
25:03
Speaker 1: that stands up and says, hey, stop doing that, like,
25:05
Speaker 1: you know, that's not very nice. So I'm going to
25:07
Speaker 1: get a teacher and I'm going to protect this victim, basically,
25:10
Speaker 1: because that's.
25:11
Speaker 3: What superheroes do, right, They stick down.
25:14
Speaker 1: Exactly. They're wonderful defenders, and so I thought, I wonder
25:18
Speaker 1: if young kids pick up on those defending themes and
25:21
Speaker 1: then you see a link to their behavior, say on
25:25
Speaker 1: the playground, And what we found is the exact opposite.
25:28
Speaker 1: So they're not better defenders. They're actually more aggressive over time,
25:35
Speaker 1: both more physically, relationally and verbally aggressive. And so at
25:40
Speaker 1: a young age, it seems like they're not picking up
25:42
Speaker 1: on the defending things because the violence is just so
25:46
Speaker 1: right in your face, right, it's exciting, it's vivid. The
25:49
Speaker 1: superheroes are cool, and they're punching a guy, so it's
25:52
Speaker 1: hard for them to really disconnect, you know, the pretty
25:57
Speaker 1: high levels of violence from the overall defending theme.
26:00
Speaker 2: What I'm hearing is that if my children are watching
26:03
Speaker 2: these movies and I want them to take the pro
26:06
Speaker 2: social behaviors from the superheroes and learn the moral of
26:09
Speaker 2: the story is that the good person wins and the
26:12
Speaker 2: good person looks after those that need help, my kids
26:15
Speaker 2: may not actually get that from the movie. What they
26:18
Speaker 2: might get is might is right, and I can push
26:21
Speaker 2: people around and bully people because the superhero is strong,
26:24
Speaker 2: and I want to be like the superhero because that's
26:26
Speaker 2: where the status is and that's cool.
26:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's correct. We even checked whether if you're talking
26:30
Speaker 1: to your kid a lot about media at that young age,
26:33
Speaker 1: if that moderates the effect, and it doesn't. So, you know,
26:37
Speaker 1: at age four or five, the violence is just so
26:40
Speaker 1: strong it's really hard to mitigate that. So superhero films
26:44
Speaker 1: are really fun and they're a huge part of culture.
26:46
Speaker 1: I'm not downing superhero films at all, right, but they're
26:50
Speaker 1: not made for four year olds. They're just not developmentally
26:53
Speaker 1: ready to process those kind of messages.
26:56
Speaker 2: So what you said to parents who are like, well,
26:58
Speaker 2: you know, they hassle me and their big brother or
27:00
Speaker 2: big sisters watching it, and everyone's talking about it and
27:01
Speaker 2: everyone wants to be a Batman or everyone wants to
27:04
Speaker 2: be Deadpool. These characters have got so much credibility even
27:08
Speaker 2: in the grade one playground or classroom. How do parents
27:12
Speaker 2: navigate that? Do they just? I mean, I know what
27:15
Speaker 2: I would encourage parents to say, but I'd love to
27:16
Speaker 2: hear it from you because you're doing the research. What
27:19
Speaker 2: have you seen is effective in dealing with our four, five, six,
27:22
Speaker 2: seven year olds, even our ten year olds that want
27:24
Speaker 2: to watch content, it's probably a little bit negative in
27:27
Speaker 2: terms of the influence on their behavior.
27:31
Speaker 1: So it's impossible to get completely away from superhero culture, right, Like,
27:34
Speaker 1: it's all over the place from a very very young age.
27:38
Speaker 1: My own kids, my own young kids like superheroes and
27:41
Speaker 1: they know who they are, and they dress up as superheroes. Right,
27:44
Speaker 1: and so my recommendation is moderation, So absolute moderation. Make
27:50
Speaker 1: sure your kids have lots of different interests, and one
27:53
Speaker 1: of those can be superheroes. And they might have a
27:55
Speaker 1: Batman costume, but they also have a Menion costume or
27:59
Speaker 1: a rappunful costume or all sorts of different you know
28:02
Speaker 1: options here, and then again avoid those more gritty superhero
28:08
Speaker 1: programs that are aimed toward teenagers or an adults until
28:11
Speaker 1: they're at that age, and then I'll give them examples
28:15
Speaker 1: of defenders you know in the news media or in
28:19
Speaker 1: fiction that are better. Example, So like Martin Luther King
28:22
Speaker 1: Junior is one of my heroes who is a strong,
28:25
Speaker 1: powerful defender, and so that's somebody I want my kid
28:29
Speaker 1: to aspire to be like. And so we read stories
28:32
Speaker 1: about him, and we listen to his speeches, and I'm
28:35
Speaker 1: hoping that those kind of things stick a little bit
28:38
Speaker 1: more than say, say Superman or Batman.
28:41
Speaker 3: I've got another quick question for you on this.
28:44
Speaker 2: I vaguely recall that you did a study that looked
28:47
Speaker 2: at the impact of you know, pink toys and blue toys,
28:51
Speaker 2: gender stereotyping toys that are explicitly and specifically marketed to
28:57
Speaker 2: girls and boys.
28:58
Speaker 1: We did say on Prince Us is that one we
29:01
Speaker 1: found for girls, the more they were into princess culture,
29:04
Speaker 1: the more gender stereotype they were a year later. So
29:07
Speaker 1: in fact, they were more girly right a year later,
29:11
Speaker 1: which can be really limiting in a number of ways.
29:14
Speaker 1: So girls who hold up strongly to female stereotypes limit
29:19
Speaker 1: themselves so they'll believe they can do well in math
29:21
Speaker 1: and science. They're less likely to want to go to university,
29:24
Speaker 1: less likely to want to have a career, more likely
29:26
Speaker 1: to want to marry somebody who has just a lot
29:28
Speaker 1: of money, and so on. Right, So there's some limitation
29:32
Speaker 1: that they do to themselves there. So that was the finding.
29:36
Speaker 1: And then we sound some really interesting things for boys.
29:38
Speaker 1: So boys who were into princess culture tend to be
29:41
Speaker 1: more androgynous, which is really a good finding. It means
29:45
Speaker 1: they're kind of more balanced there, and they had better
29:47
Speaker 1: body image and more higher levels of pro social behavior.
29:50
Speaker 3: Wow.
29:51
Speaker 1: So interesting things for young preschool boys who watched Disney
29:54
Speaker 1: princess movies or more into princess culture.
29:56
Speaker 2: Right, so I encourage the boys to watch more Disney
29:59
Speaker 2: and get the girls away from it.
30:00
Speaker 1: What you're saying, well, it kind of depends as well.
30:04
Speaker 1: My answer is always like it depends.
30:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that's a fairly reductionist, simplistic way of
30:09
Speaker 2: looking at it, But what I'm really hearing is that
30:11
Speaker 2: these stereotypes that our boys and girls adhere to will
30:16
Speaker 2: often limit their capacity for the future if they if
30:19
Speaker 2: they stay true to those stereotypes.
30:22
Speaker 3: But also it's probably going to have some impact on.
30:24
Speaker 2: The quality of the relationships that they have, both within
30:27
Speaker 2: their own gender and between the genders.
30:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's absolutely the case, and it kind of depends
30:33
Speaker 1: on the princess. So what we've seen is that princesses
30:35
Speaker 1: are evolving markedly, right, and so now we have princesses
30:40
Speaker 1: that are really independent and really strong and so on.
30:43
Speaker 1: Yet when when we market them and we create merchandise
30:46
Speaker 1: for them, it's very feminized and so it's all about
30:50
Speaker 1: the pretty, glittery dress and so on. Whereas when you
30:53
Speaker 1: look at, say, the character of Elsa, she is this complex, nuanced,
30:58
Speaker 1: powerful character. Sometimes we miss when we focus on, oh,
31:02
Speaker 1: you just look so pretty in your cute little Elsa dress. Right,
31:04
Speaker 1: and so it often depends on what we buy for
31:07
Speaker 1: our children in the way that we interact with them
31:10
Speaker 1: around princess culture. Again, princess culture is neither good nor bad.
31:13
Speaker 1: It's all depends on what we do with it.
31:15
Speaker 3: Who's your favorite princess? Sarah?
31:18
Speaker 1: So she actually asked us in job interviews. When I
31:21
Speaker 1: interview research assistants, so I thought deeply, she's not technically
31:25
Speaker 1: a princess, she should be. My favorite is Jane from Tarzan.
31:31
Speaker 1: So Jane is a.
31:32
Speaker 3: Professor, definitely not a princess.
31:35
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, princesses themselves are yes.
31:38
Speaker 2: Okay, so she's your favorite Disney female character, is what you're.
31:41
Speaker 1: Saying, absolutely, because you know, female professors are just coool.
31:46
Speaker 1: My more recent one, though, I really like. I like Elsa,
31:50
Speaker 1: and I really like Mowana. I loved watching Mowana, the
31:53
Speaker 1: family connections with the grandparents and the defending and the eventu.
31:58
Speaker 1: I just really loved that particular film.
32:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Mwana was so curious.
32:02
Speaker 2: And what I love about these stories is they're all
32:06
Speaker 2: about identity quests, right. We see these characters trying to
32:11
Speaker 2: discover who they are.
32:12
Speaker 3: And I would agree with you.
32:14
Speaker 2: I think that the Disney princesses or the female Disney
32:17
Speaker 2: leads over time have become increasingly strong and nuanced and complex.
32:23
Speaker 2: But like you said, once the marketing kicks in, it
32:26
Speaker 2: seems to be again really reductionist. It's like, okay, well,
32:28
Speaker 2: you're a Disney princess, so we're going to make you
32:30
Speaker 2: look pretty and dress everybody up like you and forget
32:32
Speaker 2: about all of the rest of the complexity of the character.
32:35
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So Mulan is another one of my favorites. I
32:38
Speaker 1: just love the story of Mulan. But when you see
32:41
Speaker 1: Mulan as a doll or on a lunch box or
32:45
Speaker 1: fruit staks, right, she's always the pretty Mulan and the kimono,
32:50
Speaker 1: And that's the Mulan she never wanted to be, if
32:52
Speaker 1: you've seen the film, right. And so again Disney, I
32:56
Speaker 1: think Disney's progressing in some really important ways, and we
33:00
Speaker 1: take a step back in the way that we market
33:02
Speaker 1: it to young kids.
33:04
Speaker 3: And who's your favorite superhero?
33:06
Speaker 1: Wonder Woman? Of course?
33:08
Speaker 3: What about?
33:09
Speaker 1: What about really fun? I have a fun story about this.
33:12
Speaker 1: So my graduate student was about to give birth and
33:16
Speaker 1: she watched Wonder Woman like a month before she gave
33:19
Speaker 1: birth and said, that's it. I'm not having any drugs.
33:21
Speaker 1: Like she felt so empowered like this, you know, female embodiment.
33:26
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. And so she went
33:28
Speaker 1: to give birth and then got us frush you onto it.
33:30
Speaker 1: Never mind, I want the drugs for other much. But
33:34
Speaker 1: I just love that Wonder Woman in particular. I just
33:37
Speaker 1: think it is just fantastic, So she's my favorite.
33:39
Speaker 2: Now that story is also instructive because of highlights just
33:42
Speaker 2: how impactful the media is and our beliefs in our attitudes.
33:45
Speaker 2: You know, she's she's watched Wonder Woman, which which is
33:48
Speaker 2: so far fetched and so obviously fictional and fantasy, and
33:53
Speaker 2: she would have known that she's researching in this area
33:55
Speaker 2: with you, and yet watching it made her feel invincible.
33:59
Speaker 2: It made her feel like she could do something. Clearly,
34:02
Speaker 2: once she got into the moment, she had a change
34:04
Speaker 2: of heart. But these movies are affecting adults, so imagine
34:07
Speaker 2: what they must be doing to our children.
34:10
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and there's some scholars who would lead you to
34:14
Speaker 1: believe that media has no impact on a set of
34:17
Speaker 1: which I think is just really naive. Right, the advertising
34:21
Speaker 1: industry would collapse immediately if that was the case. But
34:25
Speaker 1: then you do see that media impacts even adults, you know,
34:30
Speaker 1: as this story just shown, and certainly if it impacts adults,
34:32
Speaker 1: it has a profound impact on kids.
34:35
Speaker 2: Sarah, you mentioned this graduate student of yours that took
34:39
Speaker 2: some leave so that she could have a child, and
34:41
Speaker 2: that brings me to some other research that you've done
34:43
Speaker 2: that I think is really interesting. And would be particularly
34:47
Speaker 2: important to the people listening to this podcast. So I've
34:50
Speaker 2: got two more research questions that i want to ask
34:54
Speaker 2: you as we move towards the end of our conversation,
34:56
Speaker 2: and the first relates to body image and pregnancy. Next interview,
35:00
Speaker 2: I'm going to be speaking with Renee Engeln about the.
35:03
Speaker 3: Beauty sick culture that we live in.
35:06
Speaker 2: So I don't want to talk about our kids or
35:08
Speaker 2: not even too much about the beauty sickness that's all
35:11
Speaker 2: around us in the way it expect it affects females.
35:14
Speaker 2: But I'm particularly interested by the research that you've done
35:18
Speaker 2: with mums.
35:19
Speaker 3: After they've had their babies.
35:21
Speaker 2: So you did some research with pregnant and postpartu mums
35:24
Speaker 2: about how body.
35:25
Speaker 3: Image is being.
35:28
Speaker 2: Battered, and I'd love for you to talk a bit
35:31
Speaker 2: about that and what mums can do to love their
35:33
Speaker 2: bodies for the miracles that they are.
35:36
Speaker 1: So briefly, the media sends a pretty big lie on
35:40
Speaker 1: what your body looks like during pregnancy in the postpartum period, right,
35:44
Speaker 1: So it tells you you should be back in your genes,
35:48
Speaker 1: you know, within just a couple of weeks, which is
35:50
Speaker 1: completely unrealistic. We found that just reading five minutes of
35:55
Speaker 1: a celebrity magazine how to decrease on pregnant women's body image.
36:00
Speaker 1: It only took five minutes. Right after listening to some
36:02
Speaker 1: of those types of stories, and then when we interviewed
36:07
Speaker 1: Mom's Pregnant and postpartum, they had some really interesting things
36:11
Speaker 1: to say. You know, they said, we know the media's photoshopped,
36:16
Speaker 1: we know it, but it still impacts us. It still
36:19
Speaker 1: makes us feel bad about our bodies and our stretch
36:21
Speaker 1: marks and still mikes and all these different things, and
36:25
Speaker 1: we think that it's such a lie. And so you
36:28
Speaker 1: really have to be thoughtful and careful when you're being
36:31
Speaker 1: exposed to media to recognize the power of your own
36:36
Speaker 1: body and the belief that you're creating something so beautiful
36:41
Speaker 1: and so wonderful right there. And it's not just all
36:44
Speaker 1: about the way you look, which is what media tells
36:47
Speaker 1: you that you're worth as a woman really is in today's.
36:50
Speaker 3: Society, it's fascinating research. And this is not exactly new.
36:55
Speaker 2: I mean, we've had science for a few decades now
36:59
Speaker 2: that has said just spending a few minutes in a
37:02
Speaker 2: celebrity oriented magazine is enough to make people, make women,
37:06
Speaker 2: specifically feel less because the emphasis so much is that
37:12
Speaker 2: your value as.
37:13
Speaker 3: A human is dependent on your physical appearance.
37:18
Speaker 2: Was there anything else that stood out to you as
37:19
Speaker 2: you did that research with these moms who are obviously
37:23
Speaker 2: suddenly feeling lousy just because they're having a baby, and
37:26
Speaker 2: that don't look like the people in the magazines.
37:29
Speaker 1: This is a different study that we did and it
37:31
Speaker 1: was about the transition to parenting, but I think it's
37:34
Speaker 1: relevant here. So when we asked new moms how much
37:38
Speaker 1: they compare themselves to other people on social media, we
37:43
Speaker 1: found that if you're saying, hey, I'm doing this frequently,
37:45
Speaker 1: I'm comparing myself to other moms, especially, they tended to
37:49
Speaker 1: feel more depressed, lower printal efficacy, which means that you
37:54
Speaker 1: don't feel like you're a very good mom, lower printal competence,
37:58
Speaker 1: like hey, I can't do this, and a worse co
38:01
Speaker 1: parenting relationship with your partner, which is like we don't
38:04
Speaker 1: really do all that well together. And so it's not
38:07
Speaker 1: just celebrity magazines, right, it's just the day to day
38:10
Speaker 1: social media, and so most people put this perfect image
38:14
Speaker 1: of themselves on as a parent in terms of the
38:16
Speaker 1: way they look their kids, how they're behaving and like, hey,
38:20
Speaker 1: I've got this all together. But realistically, parenting and especially
38:23
Speaker 1: when you're a new mom, is really hard. It's like
38:26
Speaker 1: really hard, right, hardest job on the planet, And it
38:29
Speaker 1: would be wonderful if we could have a little more
38:31
Speaker 1: authenticity in what we post on social media ourselves, and
38:36
Speaker 1: then also just a real critical eye to say, you
38:39
Speaker 1: know what they're probably if their lives is not this
38:42
Speaker 1: perfect picture that they're portraying in terms of motherhood.
38:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I feel like mums in particular,
38:48
Speaker 2: that's not so much although some but mums in particular
38:51
Speaker 2: just need to be more gentle to themselves and recognize.
38:53
Speaker 3: It's a tough gig.
38:54
Speaker 2: You put your body through a lot and you're okay,
38:57
Speaker 2: just keep moving forward, you do an okay, It's a.
39:01
Speaker 1: Lot of momm and guilt that happened all different levels. Yeah,
39:05
Speaker 1: and I think media can really exacerbate that if I'm
39:07
Speaker 1: not careful.
39:08
Speaker 2: Well, Sarah, let's take an abrupt turn to one more
39:13
Speaker 2: recent study that you've been involved in. Now this wasn't
39:15
Speaker 2: your research, but you were involved in it as in
39:18
Speaker 2: a supervisory capacity, and I think that it's just so
39:21
Speaker 2: important that I wanted to touch on it before we
39:24
Speaker 2: wrap up, and I ask you my rapid fire famous
39:27
Speaker 2: five questions to end the conversation. Recently, you've been investigating
39:32
Speaker 2: with a colleague how children cope following a parent's death
39:36
Speaker 2: by suicide. Recently, I had a conversation with a mum.
39:40
Speaker 2: She was talking with me and told me that her
39:43
Speaker 2: six year old and nine year old daughters were going
39:46
Speaker 2: through some fairly significant grief because their dad had died
39:50
Speaker 2: by suicide in the month's previous to our conversation.
39:54
Speaker 3: So I was.
39:54
Speaker 2: Preparing to say to her, well, you know, let's talk
39:57
Speaker 2: about how we can help them through their grief, looking
40:00
Speaker 2: forward to a conversation that would be full of hope and.
40:04
Speaker 3: Focused on the.
40:05
Speaker 2: Ways that she could be that strength and that foundation
40:08
Speaker 2: for them, when she said, actually, that's only part of
40:10
Speaker 2: the reason I'm calling. The other reason that I want
40:12
Speaker 2: to talk to you is because I've just received notice
40:15
Speaker 2: that I've got stage four breast cancer.
40:18
Speaker 3: It's terminal, and I only have a couple of months
40:20
Speaker 3: to live.
40:21
Speaker 2: So just to really hard such a devastating and such
40:24
Speaker 2: a such a hard conversation, and so I took a
40:27
Speaker 2: very very deep breath before I started to talk to her,
40:31
Speaker 2: But I just sort of I thought to myself, here's
40:33
Speaker 2: these kids. They've lost a dad to suicide. Their mum's
40:36
Speaker 2: prognosis is devastating, it's terminal. What did your research reveal
40:42
Speaker 2: when it comes to children and losing a parent to suicide.
40:48
Speaker 1: So this was a qualitative study, and we interviewed a
40:52
Speaker 1: variety of people, all in adulthood, and they were reflecting
40:55
Speaker 1: on their experiences when there were children. All of them
40:59
Speaker 1: reported it was, you know, a very significant event in
41:04
Speaker 1: their life that they still carried with them today, that
41:06
Speaker 1: they thought about it regularly in terms of I think
41:10
Speaker 1: the most useful thing we found from the study is
41:14
Speaker 1: the way that you talk to children around a pretty
41:17
Speaker 1: traumatic event like that. So there was a range and
41:21
Speaker 1: a variety of our participants said, you know, people tried
41:23
Speaker 1: to sweep it under the rug, or tried to protect me,
41:27
Speaker 1: try to just move forward, distract me, and they said,
41:32
Speaker 1: you know, that was a pretty negative thing in my life.
41:36
Speaker 1: I wish that people would have been real with me.
41:38
Speaker 1: I wish that they would have been honest with me.
41:40
Speaker 1: I wish they would have talked to me and other
41:43
Speaker 1: participants who had experiences where you know, we got social
41:47
Speaker 1: services in and we got resources, and we had people
41:51
Speaker 1: who were real to them and talk to them as
41:53
Speaker 1: if they were real people tended to have better outcomes
41:57
Speaker 1: on the whole. So this is, you know, a the
42:00
Speaker 1: traumatic event. Kids need to talk about it, right, they
42:04
Speaker 1: need to have those conversations in a developmentally appropriate way.
42:08
Speaker 2: Well, that was the next thing I was going to ask,
42:10
Speaker 2: what difference did it make in terms of the age
42:12
Speaker 2: of the child when the parent died.
42:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we had all sorts of ranges, Some like
42:18
Speaker 1: it during infancy and even then when they didn't remember
42:22
Speaker 1: the event, it was still a part of their life.
42:25
Speaker 1: And so even then they said, you know, growing up,
42:29
Speaker 1: some families would brush that under the rug, pretend it
42:31
Speaker 1: never happened. Some families would still talk about it, and
42:34
Speaker 1: the families that talked about it tended to have the
42:37
Speaker 1: better outcomes over time. And so I would say, it
42:39
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter, you know, the age of the child.
42:42
Speaker 1: It depends on the you know, the conversation and the
42:45
Speaker 1: content will differ. But just to be open and honest,
42:49
Speaker 1: listening to their feelings, having those conversations I think is
42:52
Speaker 1: important over the course of development.
42:55
Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing that.
42:56
Speaker 2: It's such important research, and I think that while it
42:59
Speaker 2: will be a small percentage of people who are affected
43:03
Speaker 2: so directly, we need to know that it's okay to
43:06
Speaker 2: have these conversations and to use woods like suicide and
43:10
Speaker 2: to still honor that family member, honor that parent, honor
43:14
Speaker 2: that person that means so much, and clearly the research
43:19
Speaker 2: that you've done has shown that that's the way that
43:21
Speaker 2: we get the better outcomes. Well, Sarah, I've just loved
43:25
Speaker 2: talking with you. You've been wonderfully generous with your time,
43:27
Speaker 2: and it's been tremendous to hear your insights and understand
43:32
Speaker 2: a little bit more about your research. With every podcast
43:35
Speaker 2: that I do, I wrap it up with five quick questions.
43:38
Speaker 2: Everyone gets the same ones, and they're supposed to be
43:41
Speaker 2: a fairly rapid fire. So here we go. The first
43:44
Speaker 2: question is this, if we ask your five children their
43:47
Speaker 2: favorite thing to do with you, what would.
43:48
Speaker 1: They say, think, snuggle and read books in my bed?
43:53
Speaker 3: Beautiful? What's been your trickiest parenting moment. You've got five kids,
43:56
Speaker 3: so I'm guessing you've had a few.
43:58
Speaker 1: One that comes to mind, So I studied game addiction,
44:00
Speaker 1: and I have a child who loves video games, and
44:03
Speaker 1: so navigating that relationship is tricky. He's fifteen right now.
44:08
Speaker 2: Let me just take this on a quick tangent. I
44:09
Speaker 2: know it's meant to be really quick, but I'm fascinated
44:11
Speaker 2: by this. Do you find yourself doing all this stuff
44:14
Speaker 2: from time to time that you're not supposed to do,
44:16
Speaker 2: you know, because you're an exasperated, frustrated parent. You're not
44:19
Speaker 2: being the college professor right now, You're just being the
44:21
Speaker 2: parent that just wants this kid to get off the
44:23
Speaker 2: screen and put it away and do as they're told.
44:25
Speaker 2: Or do you find that you're actually pretty good at
44:26
Speaker 2: following the best practice guidelines that your research points to.
44:32
Speaker 1: Depends on the day. But as a parenting expert, and
44:36
Speaker 1: you'll know this, you know exactly when you're not doing
44:39
Speaker 1: what you should do, and you're like, don't and I
44:41
Speaker 1: know better than this, but I'm just so annoyed at
44:42
Speaker 1: you right now, right.
44:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, every now, and to get my kids will actually
44:45
Speaker 2: look at me and say, I've been to your workshop's dad.
44:47
Speaker 3: You're not supposed to do that, right now?
44:48
Speaker 1: I know, all right, I know better than this, but
44:52
Speaker 1: parenting is not easy, all right.
44:54
Speaker 2: Question number three, If you could spend an hour with
44:55
Speaker 2: your children at any age at all. So let's say
44:58
Speaker 2: tomorrow after school, Oh, you're in your summer hole. Well
45:00
Speaker 2: we're having this conversation. But let's say that at school's
45:02
Speaker 2: on or whatever, and tomorrow afternoon they come back in
45:04
Speaker 2: from their activities of their school, it's two or three
45:06
Speaker 2: o'clock in the afternoon, they walk into your living room.
45:09
Speaker 3: At that age, what age would you pick? And why?
45:14
Speaker 1: Four years old is my absolute favorite age. They're party trained,
45:18
Speaker 1: which is great, or a little independent, but they're just
45:20
Speaker 1: so sweet and loving and creative, and I just love
45:24
Speaker 1: that age.
45:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, beautiful.
45:25
Speaker 2: So, no matter how good life has been for you, Sarah,
45:28
Speaker 2: and no matter how glad you are to be in
45:30
Speaker 2: the moment with your children, in terms of when you
45:32
Speaker 2: look at the future, what's in front of them, the
45:35
Speaker 2: milestones that they yet to achieve, all the experiences that
45:38
Speaker 2: you're going to have as a mum watching them grow
45:41
Speaker 2: and develop. What would be a milestone. It is something
45:44
Speaker 2: in their future that you are just so excited to see,
45:46
Speaker 2: so excited to watch and be a part of.
45:50
Speaker 1: That is a great question. You know, this is an
45:53
Speaker 1: odd answer, but I am excited for them to go
45:56
Speaker 1: through something really hard, like something really difficult for them
46:00
Speaker 1: and then watch them navigate that and then see significant
46:03
Speaker 1: growth afterwards. You know, you never want your kids to
46:06
Speaker 1: get hurt or to be sad or whatever, and so
46:08
Speaker 1: I don't hope for that to happen. But I love
46:11
Speaker 1: to watch my kids grow and I love to watch
46:13
Speaker 1: them do hard things.
46:14
Speaker 2: It's funny because when I talk about what the trickiest
46:16
Speaker 2: parent moment is with many parents, they'll say, it's so
46:18
Speaker 2: hot watching my children suffer and go through hot things.
46:21
Speaker 1: It is so hard, It's so true. But there's some
46:23
Speaker 1: joy there when there's growth.
46:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
46:27
Speaker 2: Okay, last question, if you could go back to Sarah
46:29
Speaker 2: con as a young mom having one of those tough
46:32
Speaker 2: moments with no experience at this parenting thing at all,
46:35
Speaker 2: what advice would you give yourself?
46:38
Speaker 1: Be kinder on yourself. This is the hardest gig on
46:41
Speaker 1: the planet, right, and you're going to have days where
46:44
Speaker 1: you're just going to sit on your floor and just cry. Right,
46:47
Speaker 1: But it's going to be okay. You're doing better than
46:50
Speaker 1: you think you are, and those kids are going to
46:53
Speaker 1: love you and you're going to love them more than
46:55
Speaker 1: you ever dreamed possible.
46:56
Speaker 3: Ah. Well, that's just beautiful. Sarah, Thank you so much.
47:00
Speaker 3: It's been a delight to talk to you.
47:02
Speaker 2: If anybody wanted to know more about you, do you
47:04
Speaker 2: have like a website or anything, or are you just
47:06
Speaker 2: completely esconced in academia and they've got to go and
47:08
Speaker 2: read all your papers.
47:09
Speaker 1: Now my grad soon just said you need a website,
47:12
Speaker 1: so she just made one for me. It's Sarah m
47:14
Speaker 1: mccoin cyny dot com and we have a little bit
47:19
Speaker 1: on there. I'm also on psychology today, have a blog
47:21
Speaker 1: there as well.
47:22
Speaker 2: Brilliant and queen. Can we look forward to like a
47:24
Speaker 2: book in the future from you. I'm sure that you'd
47:26
Speaker 2: have publishers lining up to discover what your research says
47:29
Speaker 2: about parents and the media and children.
47:32
Speaker 3: Is anything like that on the horizon, I hope.
47:35
Speaker 1: So I'm just stuck right in the middle of this
47:37
Speaker 1: giant longitudinal study, so hopefully we'll have time to write
47:41
Speaker 1: a book when we're night collecting data.
47:42
Speaker 3: Brilliant.
47:43
Speaker 2: Well, Sarah, I've enjoyed this conversation so very much.
47:46
Speaker 3: I can't thank you enough for your time.
47:47
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. It was great to see with there.
47:51
Speaker 3: Well, what a great conversation.
47:52
Speaker 2: I hope you've gotten some insight into Professor Sarah Coyn
47:54
Speaker 2: as well as the way our children are using media
47:56
Speaker 2: as a result of this.
47:57
Speaker 3: Parenting in Perspective podcast.
48:00
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I found it fascinating
48:02
Speaker 2: that whole concept of active versus passive social media usage
48:07
Speaker 2: and how we can use that to teach our children
48:09
Speaker 2: great habits when they're using their devices. Join me, Doctor
48:13
Speaker 2: Justin Colson next time as I talk with Professor Renee
48:17
Speaker 2: Ngeln about how girls see beauty, their appearance, their body image.
48:24
Speaker 3: It is a.
48:25
Speaker 2: Really really important topic if you're bringing up a young lady.
48:28
Speaker 4: The research around puberty is so clear that it tends
48:30
Speaker 4: to make boys like their bodies more right. It brings
48:34
Speaker 4: boys bardies more in line with the adeal, but with girls,
48:36
Speaker 4: because puberty tends to increase the amount of body fat
48:39
Speaker 4: you have, it actually is moving them farther from the
48:42
Speaker 4: body ideal for women, and there's something really twisted and
48:46
Speaker 4: wrong about that.
48:47
Speaker 2: That's one of the most fascinating conversations I might ever
48:49
Speaker 2: have had with Professor Renee Engeln. She's the author of
48:53
Speaker 2: Beauty Sick and is my next guest on the Parenting
48:56
Speaker 2: in Perspective podcast and Just before we go, a very
48:58
Speaker 2: big thank you to everybody who is five star reviews
49:01
Speaker 2: at the Apple Podcasts page around this podcast.
49:05
Speaker 3: It means so very much to me.
49:06
Speaker 2: This one from Martin Johnson who said I must listen
49:08
Speaker 2: for any parent. Martin said, I stumbled across this podcast
49:12
Speaker 2: when doctor Justin Coulson was interviewed on another podcast, and honestly,
49:16
Speaker 2: it's changed the type of mother I am. I was
49:19
Speaker 2: always in a constant power struggle with my toddler, and
49:21
Speaker 2: I had no idea how to navigate through the relentless conflict.
49:24
Speaker 2: Thank you for the practical, life changing advice. It's only
49:27
Speaker 2: been two weeks, but I have binge listened to every
49:29
Speaker 2: podcast episode now and I'm so grateful for what I've
49:32
Speaker 2: learned already.
49:33
Speaker 3: When you know better, you can do better.
49:35
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure my daughter has you to thank for
49:37
Speaker 2: a much happier and calmer childhood. What a beautiful review.
49:41
Speaker 2: Thank you so very much, Martine. It means a great deal,
49:44
Speaker 2: and it's those reviews. Please keep them coming because they
49:47
Speaker 2: help other people to find the podcast. Apple will prioritize
49:50
Speaker 2: podcasts that get lots of reviews and lots of five
49:53
Speaker 2: star ratings, and that way we can help other families
49:56
Speaker 2: so flourish and have the same experiences that you're having,
49:58
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for doing that.
49:59
Speaker 3: Please please tell you friends about the podcast. Please leave
50:01
Speaker 3: a review.
50:02
Speaker 2: We want to get the word out if you like
50:03
Speaker 2: more information on how I can help your family to
50:06
Speaker 2: do better, particularly if you would like to have some
50:09
Speaker 2: ongoing monthly support via our amazing Happy Families memberships. All
50:13
Speaker 2: the info is at happy families dot com dot a
50:15
Speaker 2: you we're finding that more and more people are joining
50:17
Speaker 2: up the families, getting bigger and hopefully happier every day,
50:20
Speaker 2: or you can visit my Facebook page doctor Justin Colson's
50:23
Speaker 2: Happy Families. As always a great big thank you to
50:25
Speaker 2: Justin rule On for his work in producing the podcast
50:28
Speaker 2: and making it sound just great, and thank you for
50:31
Speaker 2: listening to Parenting in Perspective a Happy Families podcast.