Latest / Deadly Divas True Crime Podcast / Episode 48: Lindsay Clancy

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Episode 48: Lindsay Clancy · Deadly Divas True Crime Podcast

• 0:11
  Hello, all you true crime divas and dudes.
• 0:13
  I'm Sarah.
• 0:14
  Welcome back to your favorite true crime podcast, Deadly Divas.
• 0:18
  And I'm Tina, and if you're new here, welcome.
• 0:21
  We break down a new true crime case for you every Friday.
• 0:25
  And today, we are tackling a very sensitive and current case that is still ongoing and has caused quite the rift in the internet with the general public strongly feeling the need to weigh in and showing that, as a nation, we are very much divided on whether or not Lindsay Clancy is a cold-blooded murderer or the victim of poorly managed mental illness.
• 0:47
  And I'm sure most of you are familiar with this case, but I do wanna give a warning that this involves serious mental health issues, including postpartum depression and psychosis, a suicide attempt, and the tragic deaths of three young children.
• 1:03
  So please take care while listening.
• 1:05
  And we've been talking about needing to cover this story for quite some time now, and originally, we had decided to wait until the end of the trial.
• 1:12
  But as we all know, it ended in a mistrial, and we currently still have no verdict.
• 1:17
  We've had some listeners ask if we were going to do an episode about it, and when we were discussing story ideas between us and deciding which one either of us wanted to tackle, I admitted to Tina that after the birth of my second child, I had experienced not only postpartum depression, but also postpartum psychosis myself.
• 1:37
  Now, what that looked like for me was very different to what it looked like for Lindsay Clancy, and I'm sure is very different for anyone who is unfortunate enough to suffer with it.
• 1:48
  And although I do not usually like to tackle subject matter involving the murders of children, I strongly felt that this was a case I personally needed to cover Now, having a baby, becoming a mother, raising a family, are all supposed to be experiences of great joy and a beautiful time of life.
• 2:07
  Fulfilling, enjoyable, some of the best memories you'll ever make.
• 2:11
  And the fact that sometimes these experiences can bring us to some of the worst moments of our consciousness is a truly sad and cruel trick of nature.
• 2:21
  Also, before I really get into this story, I do wanna make it quite clear that we are not gonna try and say Patrick did it, or that Lindsay is totally innocent.
• 2:31
  Our goal is to purely report the facts of the case.
• 2:36
  Yeah, and also give people some perspective from a person who has actually experienced this.
• 2:43
  Right.
• 2:44
  'Cause I think I saw a lot of facts and things very different than, than a lot of people.
• 2:48
  So to get started, Lindsay Marie Musgrove was born in 1990 in Connecticut to parents Mike and Paula Musgrove, and she has one sister named Allison.
• 3:00
  Lindsay attended Lyman High School, where she took part in gymnastics and cheerleading.
• 3:05
  She was an honor student, and after high school, studied for a bachelor's degree in biology at Quinnipiac University, and went on to study nursing at MGH Institute of Health Professionals to follow her dream of becoming a labor and delivery nurse.
• 3:21
  Patrick Clancy was born in 1989 in Duxbury, Massachusetts to Christopher and Susan Clancy, and he has two sisters, Erin and Laura.
• 3:30
  After graduating high school, Patrick went to college to study business and management and to pursue a career in the private sector.
• 3:37
  After he graduated from Salve Regina University, Patrick met Lindsay in 2013, when they were introduced by a family member of his.
• 3:47
  Lindsay had recently moved to the area to work at Massachusetts General Hospital in the labor and delivery department.
• 3:53
  They dated for three years before Patrick popped the question on New Year's Eve 2015, in the same place where they had had their first date.
• 4:02
  That's a nice little proposal.
• 4:04
  Right, take notes out there, men.
• 4:07
  That's the kinda stuff that women want.
• 4:09
  Whether you think it's cheesy or not, that's what women like.
• 4:12
  They married almost a year later in December 2016, and immediately started a family with their first child, Cora Marie, being born on Christmas Eve in 2017.
• 4:23
  I've always loved the name Cora.
• 4:25
  I had an Aunt Cora, and she was the most precious person in the universe.
• 4:29
  It reminds me of, Bridgerton.
• 4:31
  Yeah So Lindsay actually named Cora after the first baby she had ever helped deliver.
• 4:38
  Aw.
• 4:39
  Isn't that cute?
• 4:39
  It appears that after the birth of Cora, Lindsay excelled as a mother.
• 4:43
  She had been involved in the labor and delivery element of so many other mothers' joyous birthing experiences, and she was finally having her own.
• 4:52
  So Lindsay and Patrick are now a happy family of three enjoying their new baby.
• 4:57
  Now, Lindsay did experience some postpartum anxiety after the birth of Cora, and she did seek some help for it, but she was able to manage it with diet, exercise, and therapy.
• 5:07
  She was very reluctant to take any medications.
• 5:10
  And once she found her way through it, she returned to work at the hospital, where she checked on Cora at the daycare regularly throughout the day.
• 5:18
  Cora was described as a very girly girl, into princesses, and at only five years old, she was already following her mother's footsteps, showing an interest in gymnastics.
• 5:28
  So next came Dawson William Clancy, who was born in September 2019, and in comparison to the girly Cora, he was a rather rambunctious, typical boy full of energy.
• 5:39
  Lindsay again had some postpartum anxiety issues after giving birth to Dawson and managed her way through them the same way she did after Cora's birth, without any medication.
• 5:48
  Although she does say that she found the toddler quite challenging compared to her other two children once she had all three of them.
• 5:56
  When their third child, a boy named Callen Patrick Clancy, was born in May 2022, both Patrick and Lindsay took parental leave over the summer to care for the three children together.
• 6:08
  Lindsay took 18 weeks off work, and Patrick took 12.
• 6:12
  Patrick was the first to return to work, though he did work from home in a basement office.
• 6:17
  But as it got closer to November, when it was time for Lindsay to return to work, the couple decided to hire a nanny to help out three days a week.
• 6:25
  The nanny started in September so as to get to know the family routine and the children before Lindsay returned to work.
• 6:31
  Lindsay had felt that same postpartum depression that she had felt after the birth of her first two children.
• 6:38
  But this time, as it got closer to her return to work date, the issues started to get worse this time, not better Being a nurse, Lindsay was familiar with certain medications, and she requested a prescription for Zoloft from her psychiatrist, Jennifer Tufts, whom she was seeing via telehealth.
• 6:57
  Although Jennifer did prescribe the Zoloft, Lindsay was still reluctant to take the medication and did not take it when it was first prescribed.
• 7:05
  About a month later, she applied to extend her maternity leave, and after that decided maybe she should try the Zoloft to see if it would help.
• 7:14
  After a couple of weeks on the Zoloft, Lindsay complained that she had not slept for days and felt that it was due to the medication.
• 7:21
  Jennifer also noted during a visit with Lindsay that there was no improvement at all, so she decided to switch Lindsay to the lowest dose of Ativan.
• 7:31
  Lindsay reported that taking the Ativan helped with the anxiety, but not with her sleep issues, so she was taking Benadryl to help her sleep.
• 7:39
  A week after switching to Ativan, Jennifer also prescribed Buspar for Lindsay's anxiety.
• 7:46
  A week after that, when they met again next, Jennifer told Lindsay that she would be reducing the Ativan, as it was only a short-term medication.
• 7:56
  And Lindsay told her that she had also been seeking help at the South Shore Perinatal Mental Health Clinic, and they had prescribed her Prozac.
• 8:05
  So at this point, it seemed that Lindsay was taking Prozac in addition to Ativan, Buspar, and Benadryl.
• 8:12
  Yeah, that's a lot.
• 8:14
  You know, couple all of those medications with the rapid hormonal changes that were already going on in her body, and there's no way that that's not creating issues.
• 8:24
  So when they met again at the beginning of December, Lindsay told Jennifer that the South Shore Clinic had now prescribed her the antidepressant Remeron and the antipsychotic Seroquel.
• 8:36
  Jesus, so there's even more.
• 8:39
  They just keep throwing stuff at her.
• 8:41
  Now, she was still scared at the thought of taking any medications, let alone all of these ones together, so she actually didn't take the Seroquel, which was the antipsychotic.
• 8:51
  She had started to take the Remeron, but she said the drug was making her feel even more helpless.
• 8:57
  Hmm.
• 8:58
  So as Jennifer further questioned Lindsay about these thoughts, she admitted to having intrusive thoughts of wanting to die, but not actually suicidal thoughts of wanting to hurt herself, just, just not wanting to live.
• 9:11
  Jennifer was becoming worried about all the different medications coming from different providers, and she encouraged Lindsay to try to stick to a treatment plan with just one provider.
• 9:22
  However, when the two met two weeks later, Lindsay admitted that Valium and Quetiapine had been added to her medication list in addition to help her sleep.
• 9:33
  I mean, I can't even fathom taking that many medications.
• 9:37
  I don't know how you keep them straight.
• 9:38
  Right So at this point, she admitted to Jennifer that her intrusive thoughts now did stretch to thoughts of suicide, and she even had a visit to an emergency room, a very hospital that she worked in, during one particularly bad episode, but she was not admitted.
• 9:55
  Jennifer and Lindsay made a plan for Lindsay to attend a women and infants program that focused on postpartum issues.
• 10:02
  However, by the next time they saw each other, Lindsay had been a voluntary inpatient for five days at the McLean Hospital after going to the emergency room during an episode of suicidal thoughts.
• 10:15
  This hospital added trazodone to her medication to help her sleep.
• 10:20
  Oh my God.
• 10:22
  Even after that, it seemed to Jennifer to be getting worse, not better.
• 10:27
  I mean, I'm just putting myself in her shoes, having these three young children to take care of, giving birth not that long ago, and all these different providers are giving you all of these different medications, and nothing is helping.
• 10:45
  Now, nothing more communicated with each other either, which is the issue that we come across later on.
• 10:51
  Yeah, so she must have felt just utterly helpless.
• 10:53
  She wasn't getting any relief.
• 10:56
  She wasn't getting any solution.
• 10:58
  And so I'm sure that that drove those helpless thoughts like,"This is never gonna get better.
• 11:04
  What am I gonna do?" The two of them had three more visits in January, where they continued to try and tweak the combinations of medications, but Lindsay's depression continued to deteriorate, with Lindsay describing herself as numb with no motivation.
• 11:19
  Lindsay also made calls to the suicide hotline during this period, but no action was taken as a result of those calls because Lindsay did not have an actual suicide plan.
• 11:30
  So you can't just call and say,"I think I wanna kill myself." You have to call and say,"I've got a gun and I'm about to shoot myself in the head," for them to be able to step in.
• 11:39
  Yeah, it's like stalking or domestic abuse situations.
• 11:42
  The police literally will not help you until it's too late.
• 11:47
  So Rebecca Gelota was Lindsay's medical healthcare provider at the South Shore facility, and she said that Lindsay was constantly asking to change her medications due to side effects.
• 12:00
  But she would try and encourage her to stick them out because most of the drugs of this nature take a while to really start working, and the symptoms that she was referring to were more likely to be a result of the mental illness than the drug side effects.
• 12:13
  So that's a lot of information to comb through regarding the mental healthcare Lindsay was seeking and all the different types and brands of medication she tried.
• 12:22
  You probably heard during the trial that, in total, Lindsay had been prescribed 13 different drugs for her mental health treatment over a four-month period, and that is factually accurate.
• 12:33
  But you have to understand that Lindsay was reluctant to take many of these, and being prescribed 13 different medications is not the same as actually taking 13 different medications.
• 12:44
  Lindsay was a nurse, a labor and delivery nurse at that, and she had insight to the medical field and prescription medications better than most of us, and she knew that she needed help.
• 12:54
  But at the same time, she's battling with the thought of taking medications that she knew could be counter effective.
• 13:01
  So pair that with the fact that Lindsay's not mentally well, she's not thinking straight.
• 13:06
  You have a very confused person who is internally fighting with the desire to treat her symptoms and the resistance to take certain types of medication.
• 13:14
  And here's where we get to a very sticky part of the conversation about the medical health providers and the treatment concerned with this case.
• 13:23
  In some ways, we can come to the conclusion that the system let her down.
• 13:26
  The medications were coming from different providers.
• 13:29
  They were not mixing well together.
• 13:31
  We can also say that Lindsay herself was not taking them as prescribed, not giving them long enough to work, and not sticking to one dedicated treatment plan.
• 13:40
  Now, is this Lindsay's fault?
• 13:42
  Can we blame someone for not acting appropriately with the doctors and the medications when their own thoughts are failing them anyway?
• 13:49
  That's a good question.
• 13:50
  Yeah.
• 13:51
  Can we blame the doctors when Lindsay is the one seeking help from different facilities and providers, and they can't exactly go home with her and make sure she's taking them as prescribed?
• 14:01
  Another good question.
• 14:02
  I mean, when you go to a new doctor, who fills out the health questionnaire?
• 14:06
  You do.
• 14:07
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:08
  And they're relying on you to tell them what you're currently taking.
• 14:11
  So now let's look at how the family were dealing with all of this during those four months.
• 14:16
  Lindsay's mother, Paula Musgrove, had become very concerned about the state of Lindsay's mental health over those four months.
• 14:23
  Lindsay would speak openly to her about how she was feeling and her reluctance to take the prescribed medication, as she felt that they were stopping her from sleeping and destroying her mind.
• 14:35
  Paula would often go and stay with Lindsay to help out with the kids as a result.
• 14:39
  Paula admitted on the stand that Lindsay had admitted to her and Patrick that she had experienced thoughts of hurting the children I mean, I'm putting myself in the position of the mother-in-law, the mother, or whoever she told.
• 14:53
  If my child came to me and said,"I'm having thoughts of harming my children," that's like, okay, I'm very concerned about that.
• 15:02
  But also, if I tell Children's Services or whoever, what is gonna happen to my grandchildren?
• 15:12
  And also, okay, my daughter is a nurse.
• 15:15
  Obviously, she's seeking treatment everywhere that she can.
• 15:20
  I'm not saying they did the wrong or the right thing.
• 15:22
  I just understand how incredibly sticky that would be.
• 15:27
  Lindsay's sister, Allyson, also stated that Lindsay had admitted to her about having suicidal thoughts on a daily basis for over a month.
• 15:37
  Lindsay was also close to husband Patrick's mother, Susan Clancy, and was verbal with both Patrick and Susan about her feelings and her fears.
• 15:47
  So another question that is frequently asked is did the family fail her?
• 15:51
  And I think the thing to remember here is that none of them worked in the mental health field, and all of them knew that she was seeking professional help.
• 16:00
  Do you really think that any of those people would have left her alone with their grandchildren, their nieces and nephews, if they had the faintest inkling what could happen?
• 16:09
  'Cause I don't think so.
• 16:11
  Yeah, I mean, pretty much everybody that knew Lindsay testified, including Patrick, that she was essentially the perfect mother.
• 16:19
  And if you know that person is seeking help and seeing medical professionals, what more can you do?
• 16:24
  Yeah, she's a medical professional herself, so...
• 16:28
  So now let's look at the events of January 24th, 2023, and look at why everybody is so focused on picking apart all the little details.
• 16:37
  That morning, Lindsay took five-year-old Cora to a pediatrician appointment while Patrick watched Dawson and Callan.
• 16:45
  When they returned home, she played outside in the snow with all three children, and they built a snowman.
• 16:50
  She later asked Patrick if he could pick up some takeout food for dinner because she didn't have anything planned.
• 16:55
  She also needed him to stop by the pharmacy to pick up an over-the-counter medication that Cora's pediatrician had advised her to get.
• 17:03
  Patrick left the house around 5:15.
• 17:06
  He was at CVS around 5:32, where he tried to call Lindsay, but she didn't answer.
• 17:12
  Lindsay called him back around 5:34, and they spoke for 14 seconds about which medication he needed to get Patrick picked up the food at 5:54 and arrived home around 6:09.
• 17:24
  After entering the home, Patrick noticed how quiet it was and he started to call out for Lindsay.
• 17:30
  When she did not respond, he went upstairs and entered their bedroom where he saw a lot of blood in various places and an open window.
• 17:39
  So he ran outside to find Lindsay on the ground under the window from which she had jumped, and he called 911.
• 17:46
  Patrick says to Lindsay,"What have you done?
• 17:49
  Where are the kids?" And the 911 operator can hear him telling Lindsay to look at him and say his name in an effort just to get her to respond to him Lindsay tells him that she tried to kill herself and that the kids are in the basement.
• 18:04
  So Patrick reenters the house to look for them, and a few minutes later, he can be heard crying and howling on the 911 call and saying she killed the kids after he finds them in the basement strangled to death using exercise bands.
• 18:18
  Callan had a slight pulse and was rushed to the hospital in a desperate attempt to save his life.
• 18:24
  Lindsay was also taken to hospital, where she was treated for her injuries.
• 18:28
  The self-inflicted cuts on her wrist needed stitches.
• 18:31
  The spine injuries from the fall left her paralyzed.
• 18:35
  She went into cardiac arrest on a couple of occasions and was brought back to life with CPR and chest compressions, and she required several blood transfusions.
• 18:44
  But ultimately, Lindsay survives the fall, and the day after was charged with two murders, and then later, after baby Callan passed on January 27th, a third murder.
• 18:56
  On July 21st, 2026, the case went to trial, not because Lindsay is denying she did it, but because her legal defense team claimed that she is not criminally responsible due to a rare mental disease known as postpartum psychosis.
• 19:12
  Now, we could go into all the details they talked about in court, about Lindsay looking up how far away the restaurant was on Apple Maps, calling CVS to see if they had the medication, the data from her phone and Apple Watch showing her movements around the house while Patrick was out, but to me, this is irrelevant.
• 19:30
  The prosecution is using this information to try to show that the murder was premeditated.
• 19:37
  But that does not prove that Lindsay was in her right mind one way or another.
• 19:41
  If the voices in your head have been telling you that you need to kill yourself and the best outcome for your children if you were to die is to also die, because then they will be safe with you, that doesn't make it a spur of the moment decision.
• 19:54
  And I'm not saying that she did look up the distance so she knew how long she had before he got back.
• 20:00
  She may have been looking it up because she was having an episode and needed the comfort of knowing how soon he would be back.
• 20:06
  Or maybe she was seeing how long she had to do what her mental state was telling her was the safest path for her children.
• 20:13
  That still doesn't make it definite that she was in her right mind.
• 20:18
  Both things can be true at once.
• 20:21
  And for this part, I'm speaking as someone who has had postpartum psychosis.
• 20:25
  I do remember how real things were to me that I now know were hallucinations There's actually nothing stranger to me in this world than to have memories that to me are vivid and real, but I know now that those were hallucinations at the time.
• 20:42
  Wow.
• 20:44
  And did the same ones reoccur to me on different days?
• 20:46
  Yes.
• 20:47
  And did I have moments of clarity in between?
• 20:49
  Yes.
• 20:51
  So could she have been planning to make sure her husband was gone long enough for her to kill her children because the voices in her head convinced her it was the best thing for them?
• 21:00
  I think so.
• 21:01
  One does not prove the other to be right or wrong.
• 21:04
  And honestly, if I was to cover everything that was brought up in the trial, we would be here for 21 days like they were.
• 21:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:10
  So all together, over 80 witnesses took the stand, her family, her doctors, first responders, Patrick.
• 21:17
  Throughout the whole trial, the public had been watching and weighing in.
• 21:21
  Some people just cannot get past the fact that this mother of three young children brutally murdered them one day after sending her husband out on errands.
• 21:30
  Other people, mainly women, and I would hazard a guess, mainly women who have given birth, are more willing to believe the fact that Lindsay was not in her right mind She was not being monitored closely enough, having been very honest with friends, family, and medical professionals, and she was on a dangerous cocktail of prescription medications that she admits she did not always take as prescribed.
• 21:56
  As it turns out, her jury could not agree unanimously, with 11 out of 12 jurors agreeing that Lindsay was not criminally responsible due to her mental state, and one holdout juror firmly believing she was.
• 22:09
  And the result?
• 22:11
  A mistrial.
• 22:12
  The judge sent them back to continue deliberations three times, but no unanimous verdict could be reached, and so a mistrial was ruled.
• 22:20
  So what does that mean for us now?
• 22:21
  For Lindsay Clancy, it means she is currently residing in a psychiatric care facility receiving treatment for her physical and mental health while she waits to see if the state of Massachusetts decides to try her again.
• 22:34
  They currently claim they have not decided upon that yet, and they have options.
• 22:40
  They could retry the case.
• 22:42
  They could try to reach a plea deal.
• 22:44
  They could lessen the charges, or they could drop them completely.
• 22:48
  But I have a feeling they will not make that decision until after the malpractice suits that Lindsay and Patrick have filed against her healthcare providers are heard next month.
• 22:58
  In the meantime, Lindsay's legal team have jumped into action investigating that holdout juror, appealing to dismiss the case and avoid any retrial altogether, and questioning whether a retrial would violate Lindsay's constitutional rights against double jeopardy.
• 23:14
  So what are these malpractice suits about?
• 23:16
  Lindsay Clancy has filed a civil malpractice and negligence lawsuit against her medical care providers, and Patrick Clancy has filed a separate wrongful death lawsuit against them.
• 23:28
  Named in the lawsuits are the McLean Hospital, the Women and Infants Hospital of Rhode Island The South Shore Health Clinic, Jennifer Tufts, Rebecca Gilotta, and other medical professionals.
• 23:42
  The lawsuits accuse them of over-prescribing medications, failure to accurately diagnose, and poor coordination between professionals.
• 23:51
  Patrick's unlawful death lawsuit will have its first hearing on October 28th, 2026, and Lindsay's malpractice lawsuit does not have any date set yet.
• 24:02
  It does seem highly likely to me that the outcome of those lawsuits would indicate whether or not a retrial will happen in the triple murder case against Lindsay.
• 24:10
  So you can probably tell by now that I do sympathize with Lindsay.
• 24:13
  I've been there.
• 24:14
  I know how crazy it can make you feel, how helpless, lost, and confused, how reliant you really are on medical professionals to be able to help.
• 24:23
  I know she killed her children, and I know that is something that every single one of us just cannot understand how a mother could do it.
• 24:31
  But do I think Lindsay should be set free to live her life however she pleases?
• 24:35
  No, because she is still a danger to society and herself.
• 24:40
  If this woman was so depressed that it made her experience that kind of psychosis due to a postpartum condition, she is certainly depressed enough now knowing what she did, living with what she did, living with her current condition due to her failed suicide attempt.
• 24:58
  But prison is not the place for her.
• 25:00
  She should not be living in a cell beside people who murdered while in their right mind, people who murder for thrills, or for sexual desire, or for money, or sometimes even just for pleasure.
• 25:11
  She isn't one of them.
• 25:12
  No one can bring those children back, and no one person is to blame for the events that led up to this absolutely unthinkable act.
• 25:21
  Lindsay needed help, and she still does, now more than ever.
• 25:26
  I'm glad that she is in a psychiatric facility.
• 25:28
  I think that's where she belongs.
• 25:30
  I hope she's getting the help that she needs, although I know she will never get over the events that happened that day in January 2023, and neither will Patrick.
• 25:40
  Everyone wants to blame him, paint him as the bad guy.
• 25:43
  He didn't listen to her.
• 25:44
  He left her alone.
• 25:45
  He's remarried already, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:48
  That man went through hell trying to support his wife, and he went through hell when he found his wife paralyzed and his children dead.
• 25:57
  And to this day, he does not blame Lindsay for what happened, and if anyone should, he should.
• 26:02
  They were his kids, too.
• 26:04
  But he saw firsthand her mental suffering.
• 26:07
  He tried to get her the help she needed.
• 26:10
  He saw her struggle with medication side effects and the prescription overload.
• 26:14
  He forgives her because he knows she's not an evil murderer.
• 26:18
  And as for his 60 Minutes interview, I watched it.
• 26:21
  I found him emotionless, I found him dull, I found him somber.
• 26:24
  I found him not very interesting at all, and he said nothing we didn't already know.
• 26:28
  I don't blame him for taking the interview offer.
• 26:30
  People have been hounding him, accusing him, focusing on him, and he just lived through the trial of the death of his children.
• 26:38
  I would probably be numb, too.
• 26:40
  The irony is he looked and acted as numb as Lindsay's journal entries say she felt in the months before the incident.
• 26:48
  I really do wish Patrick the best.
• 26:50
  I hope his new wife and new baby can bring back some of the joy he probably thought he would never see again, and I wish Lindsay healing, physically and mentally.
• 27:01
  And I want us all to remember that it is a fact that one in five women will experience some kind of perinatal mood disorder, and although postpartum psychosis specifically is considered rare, mental health issues after childbirth are not.
• 27:16
  And we all need to be there for each other and aware of the fact that new mothers may need more help than they will admit.
• 27:24
  And the last thing I wanna say is, if you or someone you know needs help, the National Suicide Crisis Lifeline in the US is available by calling or texting 988.
• 27:35
  I have a few things I wanna discuss.
• 27:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 27:38
  And the first one is very grim, because what does Lindsay have to live for?
• 27:44
  I know I mean, truly, she lost her family.
• 27:48
  She murdered her own three children.
• 27:51
  She is paralyzed.
• 27:53
  She could never go back to work most likely.
• 27:55
  She's never gonna have her children back.
• 27:57
  She's a murderer.
• 27:58
  That's on her record for life.
• 28:00
  She has to live with the fact that she killed her children for the rest of her life.
• 28:04
  What kind of life does she have?
• 28:06
  I agree, and I think that she's a very high suicide risk.
• 28:10
  Yeah.
• 28:11
  She's got nothing to live for.
• 28:12
  She would probably be extremely suicidal.
• 28:14
  I think if left to her own devices, that would be inevitable.
• 28:17
  I doubt very much that she wants to live.
• 28:19
  Yeah.
• 28:20
  There's no way that she does.
• 28:21
  What a horrible, miserable, torturous existence that would be.
• 28:25
  I can't even imagine.
• 28:27
  Yeah.
• 28:27
  I wouldn't be able to tolerate it.
• 28:29
  I wouldn't.
• 28:29
  And as I said, if she hit psychosis just from postpartum depression, imagine how depressed she is now.
• 28:36
  That's why although I don't believe she deserves to be in a jail cell next to somebody that kills for fun, or because they wanted their wife's life insurance policy, at the same time, I don't believe that she's should be out in society.
• 28:49
  Because she's not gonna be mentally prepared, and she could be a danger to herself and other people again.
• 28:56
  Yeah, I agree.
• 28:57
  It's so sticky.
• 28:58
  This is one of the most sticky, convoluted cases, uh, in recent memory.
• 29:05
  Like, and just so tragic.
• 29:08
  So I don't know.
• 29:09
  I don't know what the resolution could even be that would satisfy every different facet.
• 29:15
  How do you get justice for those three little babies, and also have a fair conclusion for her?
• 29:22
  I don't think that exists.
• 29:24
  So it seems like what they're trying to go for as justice for the babies is going after the medical professionals who weren't coordinating with each other.
• 29:33
  But again, it's sticky.
• 29:34
  Is that their fault, or is that Lindsay's fault?
• 29:37
  I think both, and I think from a legal, we're going to court standpoint, I think that there is more than enough proof that there was medical malpractice.
• 29:48
  I mean, it's very clear that all of these facilities were not communicating and coordinating with each other, because if they had been, she wouldn't have been prescribed 13 or 14 different medications.
• 30:01
  Yeah, I agree And although one doctor can say"Well, I didn't know that Dr.
• 30:07
  A had told you this and prescribed you this, so I prescribed you this," that is your responsibility as a provider to know, to find out, to research I found that really odd because as somebody who's going to the doctor constantly right now, they all know.
• 30:24
  Yeah.
• 30:24
  They all know,"Oh, hey, Tina, you're taking this prescription and you're taking this milligram.
• 30:30
  Is that right?" I don't even have to tell them.
• 30:32
  They're keeping records on all of this.
• 30:34
  No, I agree with you because I've been to a couple of specialists lately, and I walk in and they're like,"Are you still taking this?
• 30:40
  Are you still taking this?" And it's stuff that my GP would know, but there seems to be some kind of central system.
• 30:47
  A- and maybe she was going to places that didn't communicate with each other, and so therefore, like I said, it's her responsibility to fill out her medical history and what she's taking.
• 30:56
  But I still think that when you are a mental health professional and you are dealing with somebody that is obviously having a really hard time, can you and should you just take their word on the form they signed as they walked in, knowing that they're having mental issues?
• 31:12
  Or should you be maybe calling the other doctor's office first and saying,"Hey, Lindsay's in my office.
• 31:18
  I'm thinking of prescribing Prozac, but I see she's under your treatment.
• 31:21
  She tells me she's only taking Ativan.
• 31:23
  Can you confirm?" Yeah, that's what's called due diligence, and as a health professional, you are literally obligated to do your due diligence.
• 31:32
  I was talking to my niece about this case a while back before the trial even ended, and you know, she's in a master's program to become a mental health counselor And this was when the...
• 31:45
  Was it the psychiatrist or the therapist that was under heavy scrutiny when she testified?
• 31:50
  I can't remember which.
• 31:52
  Jennifer Tops was the psychiatrist she was seeing by telehealth, and Rebecca Jalota spent a lot of time on the stand, but she was the nurse practitioner, not, like, the fall guy, I guess, the- Okay And, and that's another thing, I think.
• 32:06
  Nurse practitioners are great.
• 32:08
  Nothing against them at all, and they have the ability to write prescriptions and everything else as well.
• 32:14
  But they are working under a provider that should be monitoring that, correct?
• 32:21
  Yeah, and I was talking to my niece about it and telling her all the different facets of these healthcare providers and what they did and what they failed to do, and she knew nothing of this case.
• 32:33
  So she just knew what I told her.
• 32:34
  She was flabbergasted.
• 32:36
  Every time I would tell her something, like,"Oh, they failed to do this, they didn't do that, this person didn't tell this person this," she was like,"Are you joking?
• 32:45
  Like, that is Healthcare 101." Mm-hmm.
• 32:48
  "I have learned this, and I don't even have my master's yet.""So you have somebody that's been practicing for a decade plus.
• 32:54
  For them to be this negligent?" She couldn't believe it.
• 32:59
  And it seems like many things slipped through the gaps in this particular case.
• 33:03
  Thing after thing after thing after thing slipped through the gaps.
• 33:06
  Yeah, exactly.
• 33:08
  Thing after thing after thing after thing.
• 33:10
  Like, if it's just one thing, okay.
• 33:12
  But with all this, now we have a catastrophe.
• 33:15
  Now three children are dead.
• 33:17
  So that's unacceptable, and I really think that they have a good shot at winning those medical malpractice and wrongful death lawsuits.
• 33:25
  I think they should win them.
• 33:26
  And do you agree with me that the reason that they probably haven't decided on whether or not they're gonna retry yet is because they're waiting to see that?
• 33:34
  Because think about it, if they win those suits, they don't have a case against Lindsay anymore.
• 33:39
  Yeah, exactly, and I think you're right.
• 33:41
  I think the, the court date yesterday, she went back to court- That's right and essentially her defense, I think they're trying to, like you said, hold off- buy time, and I think that's exactly why.
• 33:54
  'Cause they know that that's gonna be compelling evidence if they win that.
• 33:58
  Yeah, for sure.
• 34:00
  We'll see how it plays out.
• 34:01
  We'll keep you guys updated.
• 34:02
  And I know that this has been so polarizing, and it seems split, not entirely, but kind of split between men and women.
• 34:12
  Women have a certain opinion, and men kind of have the opposite.
• 34:15
  I was talking to my friend who's a man, and- You know, I did that In the Headlines for Lindsey Clancy, and I always have him read my scripts.
• 34:24
  And he was of the opinion of most men, which is that,"I don't care what was wrong with her.
• 34:30
  She murdered three children, and she needs to be punished.
• 34:33
  She needs to go to jail, period, point-blank.
• 34:36
  I don't care why she did it, she did it." Which, I mean, I understand, because the reason she did it does not take away the fact that those three children are still dead.
• 34:47
  Right.
• 34:47
  And they still died in a way that was so horrific at their own mother's hands.
• 34:51
  I mean, they suffered.
• 34:53
  I get it.
• 34:53
  But it's like I said in my In the Headlines, if we just say so overtly,"You murdered, you deserve punishment.
• 35:02
  I don't care why you did it, period, point-blank," and we don't have a discussion about why that happened, we cannot prevent it from happening in the future.
• 35:12
  If we don't hold the medical professionals responsible for the mental illness not being treated fairly, it's gonna happen again and again and again and again.
• 35:23
  And just like you, I always discuss my scripts with my son, because he and I both like true crime documentaries.
• 35:32
  Uh, my husband doesn't, so my son's the one that I run them by.
• 35:35
  And he's very much set in the,"I don't care.
• 35:39
  She's a mother who murdered her children, and that's it.
• 35:42
  That's all that matters to me in this case." And he's entitled to his opinion.
• 35:47
  He is.
• 35:48
  And if you put yourself, and this is very hard to do, but put yourself in, you know, five-year-old Cora's shoes, and you are being strangled by your mother.
• 36:00
  You are looking at her.
• 36:02
  It's unfathomable.
• 36:04
  So I get it.
• 36:05
  I get why people are upset.
• 36:06
  It's upsetting.
• 36:07
  And, Something has to be done.
• 36:09
  I mean, I...
• 36:09
  She shouldn't be just allowed to do whatever the hell she wants, certainly.
• 36:14
  But again, these are discussions that we have to have.
• 36:17
  We need to be able to prevent this from happening in the future.
• 36:20
  Postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis are real.
• 36:24
  I don't even wanna say I hope that you enjoyed this episode.
• 36:27
  I hope that you found it enlightening.
• 36:31
  I hope you learned something I really hope that my perspective on it from somebody who has been pretty much in Lindsay's shoes, I didn't hear voices, I will say that, but I do understand how real things are when you're in that kind of mental state.
• 36:51
  And so I'm hoping that even if one person now sees it from a slightly different perspective due to me covering this story, then that makes me happy.
• 37:02
  I agree and I appreciate and I'm sure that the listeners appreciate you being willing to discuss your personal experience,'cause I know that it's not an easy thing to discuss.
• 37:12
  Yeah.
• 37:12
  So yeah, I hope that you guys got something from this.
• 37:15
  I really do.
• 37:16
  I hope if anything it opens up a discussion between you and maybe somebody who disagrees.
• 37:22
  All right.
• 37:23
  Well, it was a heavy one, and I'm glad we covered it.
• 37:26
  I think it was important.
• 37:28
  We needed to, to get it done.
• 37:30
  And next week we have...
• 37:32
  Next week is Friday the 13th.
• 37:34
  Friday the 13th, y'all.
• 37:36
  Ooh.
• 37:36
  So, uh, for those who may not know, we started this podcast on February, Friday the 13th this year.
• 37:44
  So every Friday the 13th that comes around, we do like a little anniversary giveaway type deal, and we are gonna be doing that, so listen to the next episode for details on how to enter.
• 37:55
  And we're gonna be covering a case that happened on Friday the 13th, Candy Montgomery.
• 38:01
  It's one of my favorite cases.
• 38:03
  It's a juicy one.
• 38:04
  Juicy, juicy.
• 38:04
  No doubt.
• 38:05
  And so many twists and turns, and the outcome, just the most unbelievable outcome.
• 38:11
  All right, guys.
• 38:11
  So be on the lookout for that one next week, and until next time, be divas.
• 38:17
  Not deadly.
• 38:18
  Bye.
• 38:19
  Bye.