Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Can We Slow Things Down with Deirdre Fay, MSW

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Can We Slow Things Down with Deirdre Fay, MSW · The Trauma Therapist

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Speaker 1: Trauma Thepist podcast Plus listeners can listen to episodes early
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Speaker 1: and ad free right now. Become a Plus listener by
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Speaker 1: going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma Theverist podcast
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Speaker 1: and signing up today. Welcome to the Trauma Nevers podcast,
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Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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Speaker 1: of experienced trauma. My name is Got macpherson and my
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Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us be ready.
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Speaker 1: I would like to do this, Okay, so here we go.
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Speaker 1: So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
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Speaker 1: back to the podcast. Very excited to have us my
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Speaker 1: guests today. Deirdre Fay, Deirdre Welcome, Welcome back, delighted to
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Speaker 1: be here, awesome.
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Speaker 2: So.
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Speaker 1: Deirdre Fay is a psycho spiritual author, coach and trainer
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Speaker 1: with forty years of experience exploring the intersection of trauma, attachment,
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Speaker 1: yoga and meditation, which she calls modern day Buddy SOTS
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Speaker 1: for training. Healing then is not an accident, but the
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Speaker 1: sure result of consistent and persistent practice that develops a solid, steady,
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Speaker 1: secure self. Deirdre uses an intricative approach with Chris, which
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Speaker 1: Chris Durmer calls a radically positive approach to healing trauma. Deirdre,
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Great to be here, as you know.
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Speaker 1: So before we can go in here, share with the
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Speaker 1: listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
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Speaker 2: I did all my work when I heard that forty
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Speaker 2: years I mean in my real subtle yes, yes, okay,
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Speaker 2: So when I started, I actually started my training when
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Speaker 2: I lived in aushrom and that's where I got the
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Speaker 2: understanding that. But being in a body, I don't think
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Speaker 2: I knew what it was like to be in her
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Speaker 2: body be for And it's also as I felt safer
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Speaker 2: and safer where my own history erupted. I didn't know
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Speaker 2: I how to trauma history. So when it was time
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Speaker 2: for me to I had done a certain amount of
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Speaker 2: healing and I needed to do more, and I also
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Speaker 2: wanted the understanding of it. This is when trauma was
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Speaker 2: really just being understood as a field or a contemporary field.
2:22
Speaker 2: And so I went to school, I got a degree,
2:25
Speaker 2: and then I was working in one of the big
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Speaker 2: teaching hospitals in the Boston area and I was doing
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Speaker 2: my training there and somebody had been in one of
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Speaker 2: the workshops i'd done, one of the big conferences I'd done,
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Speaker 2: and wanted to know what it would be like to
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Speaker 2: teach people in the dissociated unit trauma. You know, what
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Speaker 2: it was like to have meditation? Could they do it?
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Speaker 2: What would it be like for them to do yoga?
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Speaker 2: And I was curious because I thought, can I really
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Speaker 2: take what I've learned and apply it? And so I
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Speaker 2: started working there and then Bessel Hesilva heard about the
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Speaker 2: work that I was doing and I joined his clinic there,
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Speaker 2: where I got to know all the greats, you know,
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Speaker 2: and Tanina Fisher and I and Bettavento had an office together,
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Speaker 2: so we was really right in the thick of it
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Speaker 2: all well, and Besil asked me to start leading groups
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Speaker 2: and so that really became what I call the becoming
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Speaker 2: safely embodied skills. And Janina would send her clients and say,
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Speaker 2: what are you doing there? People are getting so much
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Speaker 2: better faster. Yeah, it was pretty awesome, and and I thought,
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Speaker 2: what is going on? Why is this so different? And
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Speaker 2: even now years later, I don't want to calculate the
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Speaker 2: years at this point, what what is it that's different?
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Speaker 2: And I really think it's about operationalizing the theory. You know,
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Speaker 2: there's so much theory, and as therapists, we're out there
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Speaker 2: and training, training, training, training, and we end up with
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Speaker 2: so much, but then how do we apply it? And
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Speaker 2: that's where we get stuck. We're in it and we're stuck,
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Speaker 2: and frankly, our clients are stuck too. They they want
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Speaker 2: to be a tune to. In fact, I was just
4:17
Speaker 2: talking to a consuletee the other day and I said,
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Speaker 2: what what is so critical and why our clients even
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Speaker 2: come to us in the beginning is to be attuned to.
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Speaker 2: But that's almost like a sacred gift.
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Speaker 3: Now in this world are busy, busy world where we're
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Speaker 3: driving and pressure, and so people don't pause and just
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Speaker 3: be with you know, as therapists, we're trained to do
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Speaker 3: a protocol.
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Speaker 2: You know how many sessions do we have, alice, and so
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Speaker 2: we're we try to funnel people into the protocol. But
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Speaker 2: what everybody needs and one of the reasons why trauma
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Speaker 2: is it is even a problem is because nobody heard
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Speaker 2: that they were hurting, that something was wrong inside. And
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Speaker 2: of course the client wants to be healed lickety split.
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Speaker 2: We all want that right, but it takes so much time.
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Speaker 2: But the key piece is if somebody is like, wait
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Speaker 2: a minute, wait, let me just get it. I just
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Speaker 2: felt the sense something just happened here, and we pause,
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Speaker 2: and that slowing down allows us to enter the moment
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Speaker 2: and be with somebody and we drop our training, which
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Speaker 2: is hard to do. But if we let it go
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Speaker 2: and stop worrying about or trying to do it right,
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Speaker 2: and we just something's happening here, Something's happening. What is happening,
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Speaker 2: It's like trying to untangle uh, and you know one
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Speaker 2: of those little clotted balls. You know, it's like, okay,
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Speaker 2: but this train goes here. And when we do that,
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Speaker 2: a client starts to fe heard and understood. And so
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Speaker 2: years ago when I did thirteen years of training with
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Speaker 2: Dan Brown, who it's such a sad thing that he's
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Speaker 2: left the world because he's really was brilliant and thoughtful
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Speaker 2: and he really trained me and attachment theory and its application,
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Speaker 2: and again it was like, okay, how do I operationalize this?
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Speaker 2: And one of the things that came out of it
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Speaker 2: were these fundamental attachment needs and attainment is one of
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Speaker 2: the key pieces that somebody can.
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Speaker 1: Just be there with us Deirra, you are speaking my language.
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Speaker 1: I love it, seriously love it. I want to go back,
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Speaker 1: if we may, to the point when you started doing
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Speaker 1: this in that with the dissociative people who are experiencing
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Speaker 1: the association. What did you do specifically? What were you doing?
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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I remember trying to do simple yoga
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Speaker 2: postures and simple this was this was would have been
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Speaker 2: in the nineties, you know, so there wasn't a lot
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Speaker 2: at that time. I think there were two academic articles
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Speaker 2: about trauma.
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Speaker 1: Did you just feel like this was this might be
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Speaker 1: something or what?
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Speaker 2: Well, it's mostly because of my own history, you know.
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Speaker 2: How come I had been able to meditate for hours
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Speaker 2: a day, do yoga. I did yoga multiple times a day,
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Speaker 2: and then when my trauma history erupted, it was like chaos.
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Speaker 2: I didn't want to get out of bed, you know,
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Speaker 2: and I was like, what happened? What happened?
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Speaker 1: You know?
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Speaker 2: If yoga yoga would say the body is a temple
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Speaker 2: for the soul, but I did not live in a
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Speaker 2: temple at that moment. I was disrupted. So that was
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Speaker 2: my opening quest and and so I would take things.
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Speaker 2: But all right, So at that point I had years
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Speaker 2: of experience of doing yoga meditation. So I would take
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Speaker 2: simple things and try it with these women on the
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Speaker 2: desotob unit, and they they freaked them out, and so
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Speaker 2: I thought.
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Speaker 1: Okay, we have to break them out in.
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Speaker 2: This way opened up the doorway too quick and too fast,
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Speaker 2: and so how do we slow it down? How do
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Speaker 2: we really take one tiny piece of it? And when
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Speaker 2: people started doing the becoming safely embodied skills, it was
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Speaker 2: not about having a grand theory. It's how do we
8:41
Speaker 2: make it so small and so simple that somebody can
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Speaker 2: take that next step without it being a big hiccup
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Speaker 2: or a big problem. It's like the natural next step.
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Speaker 2: And so I think that's really how we heal is
8:59
Speaker 2: by taking a part these big theories and binding what's
9:03
Speaker 2: essential and what's next and what's but it's small, it's
9:07
Speaker 2: not like, you know, we can't take it too fast.
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Speaker 2: So anyway, that's what I started doing, and I think
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Speaker 2: that's one helped people could. Once they could deconstruct their
9:20
Speaker 2: inner world, they could construct it in a way that
9:22
Speaker 2: was that worked for them.
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Speaker 1: What you said reminded me of recently when I decided
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Speaker 1: that I needed to start seeing a therapist again. I
9:34
Speaker 1: reached out to the therapist I was seeing. She was
9:37
Speaker 1: no longer seeing clients, but she recommended three people. I
9:40
Speaker 1: called each of them, and one after the other, and
9:45
Speaker 1: I'm sure they were competent, but one after the others
9:47
Speaker 1: spent the time telling me their modality and what they
9:54
Speaker 1: were going to do with me. I'm going to sneeze
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Speaker 1: for a second. Me.
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Speaker 2: I totally know that problem.
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Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, I don't care about your modality.
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Speaker 1: I want a person. I want a person. It's like,
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Speaker 1: I exactly what you're saying. I needed to be. I
10:14
Speaker 1: need that, you know. So yeah, I totally appreciate what
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Speaker 1: you're saying. So okay, I wanted to talk to you.
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Speaker 1: You're going to be uh presenting through the Wisdom Circle,
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Speaker 1: the Academy of Therapy Wisdom there. Now, what is your
10:36
Speaker 1: what are you going to be presenting on? Specifically, what
10:38
Speaker 1: is your the title of your workshop?
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Speaker 2: Oh my god, what's going to be on?
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Speaker 1: No?
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Speaker 2: I am embodied attachment, Like you know, I'm kind of
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Speaker 2: gotten away from having a curriculum and more about a tuning. Okay,
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Speaker 2: so here's what we're gonna do. What happens right now?
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Speaker 2: How do you know what happens inside you? How do
11:02
Speaker 2: you know? One of the key things our clients are
11:06
Speaker 2: missing is trusting that they what they see, what they know,
11:10
Speaker 2: what they hear, what they smell, that they know something.
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Speaker 2: We're so our world is so much about the scientific
11:18
Speaker 2: research and the academic journal, but we forgot like this
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Speaker 2: person at both me as a therapist, but also the
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Speaker 2: other person that's there, It's like they know something. And
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Speaker 2: this is where yoga and meditation is so powerful because
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Speaker 2: from that perspective, that person knows, they know themselves. They
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Speaker 2: are in the embodiment their soul, if you want to
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Speaker 2: call it, that has come into this lifetime and is
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Speaker 2: directing from inside. If we learned to listen to that voice,
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Speaker 2: and certainly IFS has done a wonder job at helping
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Speaker 2: many of us learn how to use that skill of
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Speaker 2: a being with what inn IFS we call sell And
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Speaker 2: so how do we return to that and not through
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Speaker 2: a protocol, but even just listening and the tuning and
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Speaker 2: being with I'm realizing that people have a native curiosity
12:19
Speaker 2: and what I've come to trust is that our life
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Speaker 2: actually is its own blueprint. So we're triggered, which doesn't
12:28
Speaker 2: get triggered we get triggered, but the trigger is not
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Speaker 2: where we should spend the most of our life. The
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Speaker 2: trigger is saying, there's something else, Come on, pay attention,
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Speaker 2: there's more over there.
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Speaker 1: For example, give us an example.
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Speaker 4: If somebody says something and you get activated into all
12:53
Speaker 4: the thoughts and history and our history comes up and
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Speaker 4: it's encapsulated in that.
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Speaker 2: And we could and as therapist and as clients, we've
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Speaker 2: spent years sort of delving into what's the problem and
13:04
Speaker 2: how is it getting embedded into us? But what if
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Speaker 2: that trigger, that pattern is saying, Okay, you don't have
13:14
Speaker 2: to live like this, it could be something else. You
13:17
Speaker 2: don't have to be angry here, you don't have to
13:19
Speaker 2: be resistant, you don't have to be disorganized and overwhelmed.
13:24
Speaker 2: What is wanting to happen? Somebody I was working with
13:29
Speaker 2: the other day moved to a new community and they
13:32
Speaker 2: can't seem to find the people they want to hang
13:35
Speaker 2: out with. Simple look, I think that's me.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Okay, what happened? How did they fix it?
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Speaker 2: What happens for most of us in that situation is
13:47
Speaker 2: we get like, oh my god, look of what's wrong here?
13:49
Speaker 2: I'm not getting met I don't belong? Where do I
13:52
Speaker 2: fit in? And we're caught in that loop? Right, But
13:57
Speaker 2: what could happen there? Say okay, what do I want?
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Speaker 2: And what I really believe is that when we're in
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Speaker 2: that place, I don't belong. It's because we want to belong,
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Speaker 2: but we have not learned or awakened work. I'm not
14:11
Speaker 2: sure what the right word is sorted out what it
14:15
Speaker 2: would be like for us to belong because we never belonged.
14:18
Speaker 2: Let's say I never had reassurance or soothing and comfort,
14:22
Speaker 2: so then I do all kinds of other things because
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Speaker 2: I don't know what it'll be like in my body
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Speaker 2: to be soothed. To's just like have my viscera let go,
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Speaker 2: you know, so the trigger like I don't belong. We
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Speaker 2: could land in that and swirl in that, or we
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Speaker 2: could say, okay, what would it be like to belong?
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Speaker 2: How would I know inside myself if I belonged? And
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Speaker 2: what happens to all of us therapists are clients is
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Speaker 2: we go back to the know and say, but it's
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Speaker 2: not that way. In that da da D No. We
14:58
Speaker 2: hang out in that and said of saying okay, let
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Speaker 2: me carve out a new path here, I want to
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Speaker 2: belong what longing look like?
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Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know.
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Speaker 2: I had I used this example a lot. I had
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Speaker 2: a client a long time ago that was African American
15:12
Speaker 2: that lived grown up in a really, really dissociative family.
15:17
Speaker 2: The whole family was associated. Now this person who's very
15:22
Speaker 2: very high functioning, extremely high functioning in the world, but
15:28
Speaker 2: this person believed they couldn't be in relationship because, to
15:34
Speaker 2: put it bloodly, men are perpetrators. That was the belief
15:38
Speaker 2: that was encoded. So anytime the longing inside came to
15:43
Speaker 2: be a relationship, it is a triggering and accurate and
15:47
Speaker 2: because no, you can't, because you're just going to get
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Speaker 2: hurt and words would swirl in her head and memories
15:52
Speaker 2: and associations. So then we started saying, Okay, you want
15:56
Speaker 2: to be a relationship. Here's the trigger. Men are a perpetry.
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Speaker 2: But what you want is relationship. You want to be connected.
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Speaker 2: So at that time, Barack Obama was the US President,
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Speaker 2: and we say, she liked Barock. And I said, so
16:13
Speaker 2: when you look at Barack and you see him with
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Speaker 2: his girls, what in you do you think he's perpetrating
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Speaker 2: these girls? No, So we confronted that old pattern and say, so,
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Speaker 2: what would that be like to be at the the
16:29
Speaker 2: other end there? To have somebody? What are what? What
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Speaker 2: will you see? What will you feel? What will you hear? What?
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Speaker 2: What do you know going on inside you? What do
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Speaker 2: you know coming from outside? The signal? Yeah, it's about
16:46
Speaker 2: repatterning those tiny little signals. And when you begin to
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Speaker 2: do you start orienting to that instead of build. So
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Speaker 2: if you want to belong what would it be like? Well,
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Speaker 2: I don't know, I've never belonged. Okay, Well who do
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Speaker 2: you know that belongs? Well I don't know. And you
17:08
Speaker 2: just you're going to unpack all that until you begin
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Speaker 2: to see if I belonged to somebody, would somebody would
17:16
Speaker 2: welcome me, would want to see me, I would feel
17:19
Speaker 2: safe inside? What would safety feel like? How would you
17:23
Speaker 2: know in your body that you feel safe? And you
17:26
Speaker 2: really rework it at that incredible level. And Lisa Felmanbarrett
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Speaker 2: is one of the researchers on emotion and she has
17:36
Speaker 2: done a great work unpacking this scientifically. And when I
17:41
Speaker 2: read her book, I thought, oh my god, that's just
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Speaker 2: what yoga meditation is all about, is understanding these mechanisms
17:49
Speaker 2: of how we put together the world that we live in. Wow,
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Speaker 2: it's hard.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really hard because so much of even those
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Speaker 1: micro movements you're talking about requires us, people who've experienced trauma,
18:10
Speaker 1: to trust ourselves, trust our feelings, yes, to trust our beliefs,
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Speaker 1: even to get beyond that.
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes. And so then it's like, well, how do
18:24
Speaker 2: you know when you trust yourself? Yeah? I reworked this
18:29
Speaker 2: with a consuletee recently, and it's like, Okay, how do
18:34
Speaker 2: you know what you know? Not what the world is
18:38
Speaker 2: telling you, but what do you know? How do you
18:42
Speaker 2: be inside yourself and trust that? And that is a
18:51
Speaker 2: huge thing. We all know that. You know that. I
18:54
Speaker 2: know that our clients certainly don't think it's possible for them,
18:57
Speaker 2: but it is. It is. And I think one of
19:02
Speaker 2: the things that's making me sad now about the therapeutic
19:05
Speaker 2: trainings that we go into is that it's really it's
19:09
Speaker 2: about the other person. It's not about you trusting you.
19:14
Speaker 2: And this is where attachment theory is. What do you
19:18
Speaker 2: mean well, a child? I think of it as a
19:23
Speaker 2: developmental task of becoming an adult. As a child, we
19:28
Speaker 2: needed we built a self by being mirrored and reflective
19:32
Speaker 2: from the outside. But as an adult, I need to
19:38
Speaker 2: know who I am so I can be in relationship
19:42
Speaker 2: with myself so that I can be in relationship with you.
19:46
Speaker 2: But what happens is most of us are still caught
19:51
Speaker 2: in that you should be with me in a way
19:54
Speaker 2: that makes me feel good or that I can heal
19:58
Speaker 2: you know. It's so that the outside world is supposed
20:01
Speaker 2: to affect It does affect us, but it's about how
20:05
Speaker 2: do I know what I know so that I can
20:08
Speaker 2: be there with you? And this is the cauldron of
20:13
Speaker 2: every therapy. Every therapy has this moment where we kick
20:17
Speaker 2: and scream until finally we say, Okay, let me look
20:21
Speaker 2: at myself, let me stay inside myself. What's here? What
20:24
Speaker 2: do I know? And that's where things can start changing.
20:31
Speaker 2: I'm the present, yeah, And so when we start realizing, like, okay,
20:40
Speaker 2: I didn't get my attachment needs met. That's why I
20:43
Speaker 2: don't feel secure inside, or I don't feel solid, I
20:47
Speaker 2: don't feel steady. So how do I do that? How
20:50
Speaker 2: do I build a self inside instead of asking the
20:54
Speaker 2: world to deliver that to me. It's like, this is
20:58
Speaker 2: my task. Okay, what do I need? I need to belong,
21:04
Speaker 2: I need soothing, I need comfort, I need reassurance that
21:07
Speaker 2: of course you do. Of course you do, but we
21:12
Speaker 2: all do. But these are so fundamental that we're ashamed
21:15
Speaker 2: of them. And when I worked with my own chain,
21:19
Speaker 2: which was like brutal, I realized that shame is an
21:24
Speaker 2: attachment wound, and it the reason it's so physiologically horrific
21:31
Speaker 2: is because it's encoded at these sub cortical levels. We
21:37
Speaker 2: don't think about it, but if I don't belong, the
21:42
Speaker 2: felt experience of not belonging is excruciating. You know, if
21:48
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm going to be shamed all the
21:52
Speaker 2: time because something's wrong with me, because I'm not wanted,
21:56
Speaker 2: I'm not nobody sees the best in me, nobody wants
21:59
Speaker 2: to hear what I have to say. Whatever it is,
22:02
Speaker 2: it's something is wrong. It's not a thought for it's horrifying.
22:08
Speaker 2: But once we begin to validate. Of course you need
22:11
Speaker 2: to be heard. Of course you need to be seen.
22:16
Speaker 2: Who do you want to be seen by? How do
22:18
Speaker 2: you want that scene to happen, What would that experience
22:22
Speaker 2: look like out there and what would it feel like inside?
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Speaker 2: Then it's we really can start changing because we owe
22:32
Speaker 2: these fundamental things. I feel like, you know, shame. I
22:38
Speaker 2: feel like now I have healthy shame, but I don't
22:41
Speaker 2: have that excruciating awfulness because I was like, oh, I'm
22:45
Speaker 2: feeling a shame and I want something I needed something
22:49
Speaker 2: that I never I'm not getting in the moment. Okay,
22:51
Speaker 2: that's an indicator to me. How do I have that?
22:55
Speaker 2: Or am I Am I looking in the wrong place?
22:57
Speaker 2: Do I need to turn my gaze out of here
22:59
Speaker 2: and see what else? In workshops, I did the whole
23:03
Speaker 2: experience about the attachment mirror, you know, literally drawing out
23:10
Speaker 2: what if I look in the mirror of life? What
23:12
Speaker 2: do I see? What do I hear? This is what
23:16
Speaker 2: the old model? What do I want? And how do
23:21
Speaker 2: I design that? How do I begin looking in a
23:23
Speaker 2: different direction? And most of us don't feel like we
23:25
Speaker 2: have that choice. We feel trapped in our lives. Oh well,
23:30
Speaker 2: we can begin to see like, okay, just if we
23:33
Speaker 2: turn and look over there, what is there? What would
23:37
Speaker 2: that look like? Feel like?
23:40
Speaker 1: So, what you're saying is a lot of us, when
23:45
Speaker 1: we're kind of immersed in our own shame, for example,
23:50
Speaker 1: we're encumbered by it, we're oppressed by it. We don't
23:55
Speaker 1: know where to move, how to act, what to feel,
23:58
Speaker 1: and you're suggesting, if I'm hearing you correctly, inviting people
24:03
Speaker 1: to you're asking a question. First of all, she gets
24:07
Speaker 1: the mind thinking about something else and looking in a
24:09
Speaker 1: different direction, and for the first time, you're thinking, what
24:13
Speaker 1: do I want? How do I want to feel? Is
24:16
Speaker 1: it even possible? And to some of these questions, a
24:19
Speaker 1: lot of us might say, I don't know, I no
24:24
Speaker 1: one's ever.
24:26
Speaker 2: That's right. We do know, and the reason we know
24:29
Speaker 2: is because we know we don't want that. We know
24:33
Speaker 2: we're ashamed of that. We know we're hurting here, but
24:37
Speaker 2: we just haven't known or had somebody validate or listen
24:41
Speaker 2: to us, or encourage us to see what's over there?
24:46
Speaker 2: What does our heart want? I heard something the other
24:52
Speaker 2: day that Henry Miller, the writer, said when he started painting.
24:56
Speaker 2: He said that creativity for him was about wiggling outside
25:01
Speaker 2: of a straight jacket. And I thought, oh my god,
25:04
Speaker 2: I so know that. You know our beliefs and the
25:08
Speaker 2: right way to do things is a straight jacket, and
25:11
Speaker 2: we think that's the only way to live, and that's
25:14
Speaker 2: all that is possible, and yet there's so much more.
25:18
Speaker 2: But we're not encouraged in our world to wiggle out
25:23
Speaker 2: of that. We're encouraged to stay in the line and
25:26
Speaker 2: do it right. You know, I've heard I have a
25:28
Speaker 2: lot of energy. I could say, O worries. You know,
25:34
Speaker 2: I have a lot of energy, and it can be
25:36
Speaker 2: quite ebulliant at times. And I actually had somebody tell me,
25:40
Speaker 2: one of my mentors at one point that I'm uncontained.
25:44
Speaker 2: And for years I thought, what doesn't mean? I really like,
25:47
Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm uncontained. But the reality is one
25:51
Speaker 2: of the great things that I have is that and
25:55
Speaker 2: when I'm leading a group of people, because I have
25:58
Speaker 2: so much energy, I'm staying inside myself and I'm feeling
26:02
Speaker 2: the room and I can pick up what's I don't
26:06
Speaker 2: know how it happens, but I know what's going on,
26:09
Speaker 2: and so I know what makes a difference. But that
26:12
Speaker 2: idea that I'm contained was that, like you know, especially
26:18
Speaker 2: from my mentor you know.
26:20
Speaker 1: For those who are listening to this, like myself, who
26:24
Speaker 1: are just really connecting with what you're saying. I mean,
26:31
Speaker 1: but but maybe don't feel that we can wiggle out
26:37
Speaker 1: of that straight jacket, you know, maybe you can just
26:44
Speaker 1: maybe just wiggle, begin to wiggle, and that obviously that's
26:49
Speaker 1: going to mean different things for different people.
26:55
Speaker 2: Just try something different, and does for.
27:02
Speaker 1: What you're saying, does this require an action.
27:07
Speaker 2: Or that's a great question, I don't know.
27:11
Speaker 1: Or does it require maybe just beginning to feel right,
27:15
Speaker 1: beginning to say say, what am I feeling right now? Well?
27:18
Speaker 1: I don't know.
27:21
Speaker 2: Well, but you do know? And that's what I would
27:24
Speaker 2: say to myself. That's what I would say to you
27:26
Speaker 2: or to anyone. If you do a little what do
27:28
Speaker 2: you know? And that's so primary because when we say
27:33
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know, I don't think. Carol
27:36
Speaker 2: Gilligan said this way years ago about women's feminism. It's
27:40
Speaker 2: like women are taught not girls are taught not to
27:43
Speaker 2: know what we do know? What do you know? I
27:46
Speaker 2: know I don't like this. I know that I'm scared.
27:49
Speaker 2: I know that I want to feel alive, but nobody
27:52
Speaker 2: said it was possible. I know that I want to
27:56
Speaker 2: be seen. I know that I want to be quiet.
28:01
Speaker 2: How do we validate that? And saying okay, you ready,
28:04
Speaker 2: that's one tiny step your soul, your inner guidance is
28:08
Speaker 2: saying ah, something, and then what's the next step? And
28:13
Speaker 2: always life is always showing us the next step. We
28:15
Speaker 2: can't not have a next steps.
28:19
Speaker 1: As we kind of wind down here, What does this
28:25
Speaker 1: work that you're talking about, this, this uh therapy, this approach.
28:31
Speaker 1: What does this require of the therapist?
28:36
Speaker 2: Wow, I don't know sure, I know what the question.
28:41
Speaker 1: Well, in other words, what I'm hearing is a lot
28:46
Speaker 1: of self awareness, right, I mean, you had years of
28:50
Speaker 1: experience in yoga and meditation that you're bringing to this,
28:55
Speaker 1: and I'm, uh, you know, I I'm guessing that this
28:59
Speaker 1: requires a knowing of oneself an ability not to I agree,
29:07
Speaker 1: but I think a lot of times a lot of
29:11
Speaker 1: therapists cling to this modality, you know, and and wear
29:15
Speaker 1: it as it kind of a crown and let that lead.
29:20
Speaker 1: And obviously there's a lot of benefit to knowledge and modalities.
29:25
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that at all, But what I'm hearing
29:28
Speaker 1: you say there's there's an organicity to it, a humanness
29:33
Speaker 1: to it, willingness to really an invitation to really slow down.
29:40
Speaker 1: But that requires something of the therapist as well. Well.
29:47
Speaker 2: You know, I'm interested in this because I just talked
29:52
Speaker 2: to somebody the other day and they were like, well,
29:54
Speaker 2: what do I do when my client says something about
29:56
Speaker 2: going in the body And I freak out and I
29:58
Speaker 2: get scared and I freeze up. And Okay, so right
30:00
Speaker 2: in that moment, what do you know I'm freezing up?
30:05
Speaker 2: Is that inside you? Is that in the other person?
30:08
Speaker 2: Is that happening between you? What if you even make
30:10
Speaker 2: that like, gosh, you know, I know as we're talking
30:14
Speaker 2: about this, I'm freezing up a little, I wonder what
30:16
Speaker 2: that's about. Like what if we didn't have to know?
30:20
Speaker 1: Oh?
30:20
Speaker 2: I almost felt tearious saying that, Like, what if we
30:23
Speaker 2: the pressure to be perfect and right instead of being
30:28
Speaker 2: with it? And we know from the research that this
30:30
Speaker 2: is what kids are missing so much, especially in this
30:33
Speaker 2: day of social media where parents are on the phone
30:36
Speaker 2: all the time and not at tuning right to the
30:39
Speaker 2: kid or just being with a kid, that that moment
30:43
Speaker 2: of any bit of present doesn't have to be all
30:45
Speaker 2: the time does to be It's just like, oh, there
30:48
Speaker 2: you are that that that communicates something more than almost anything.
30:58
Speaker 1: You doblie, You are speaking the truth. I mean, seriously,
31:06
Speaker 1: love it. This is this is what you do and
31:11
Speaker 1: you've been doing it. How did just before we got
31:16
Speaker 1: somebody questions, how did you get to a point where
31:19
Speaker 1: you were like, you know what I want to become
31:21
Speaker 1: a therapist. What did you just would this start from
31:23
Speaker 1: this very early age? Were you that person who everyone went.
31:26
Speaker 2: To and no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no.
31:30
Speaker 2: I think it was at the Austro and it was
31:35
Speaker 2: it was you know, that's a process of awakening. And
31:38
Speaker 2: then my own trauma came up. I was like, what
31:40
Speaker 2: the heck is happening to me? And I started seeing
31:43
Speaker 2: that so many people that came, we had, you know,
31:49
Speaker 2: thousands of people a year come through, and many of
31:51
Speaker 2: them had issues and they didn't want to open up
31:54
Speaker 2: too much, or they'd open up and then they'd chuck
31:57
Speaker 2: down real quick. It's like, what's going on? What? What
32:02
Speaker 2: is this? So yoga and meditation says something is possible
32:06
Speaker 2: and we're not living that possibility. What's going on? And
32:10
Speaker 2: so going to school and doing that it was really
32:12
Speaker 2: a quest from my own healing. And then it was like, Okay,
32:15
Speaker 2: so I don't know, I don't know what it is,
32:22
Speaker 2: but I think people I think more people have it
32:25
Speaker 2: than not. Right, we just don't give each other the
32:28
Speaker 2: chance to drop in.
32:33
Speaker 1: Usual. What's the best way for people to reach out
32:36
Speaker 1: get in touch with you.
32:39
Speaker 5: They can use the books they're amazing when people buy them.
32:46
Speaker 5: The first year it was out, it was I think
32:49
Speaker 5: we sold thirty thirty five thousand that year. There's also
32:55
Speaker 5: I have an attachment book from Norton.
32:59
Speaker 2: It's here. That's for therapist. It's a little bit more
33:03
Speaker 2: heady and more full of research. My website is dfa
33:09
Speaker 2: dot com. Very simple, dfay dot com.
33:12
Speaker 1: Okay, and I'll have all those linked up here at
33:14
Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Thepist podcast dot com,
33:18
Speaker 1: as well as a link for Academy of Therapy Wisdom
33:21
Speaker 1: for the Trauma Circle where you'll be offering a workshop there. Awesome, man,
33:29
Speaker 1: I'm just so glad you're perre. Love to have you back.
33:32
Speaker 1: And we need this. Our world needs what you're talking
33:38
Speaker 1: about now. And it's it's it's this slowing down. It's
33:42
Speaker 1: this being willing and able and inviting each other to
33:46
Speaker 1: look and listen and see and thank you for being here.
33:50
Speaker 2: I want to say one thing, though I don't show
33:54
Speaker 2: up except because you're showing up. It's not me, it's us.
34:02
Speaker 2: You and I are entering a sacred space where that
34:06
Speaker 2: is allowed to flourish. And that's what's possible in our
34:10
Speaker 2: world and that's what's possible in our offices.
34:16
Speaker 1: So appreciate that. All right, Dearsha, take care job.