Latest / Unfolding: a circular economy podcast / Episode 9 - Elif Berrak Taşyürek
Transcript
- Iain Gulland: Welcome to Unfolding, a podcast which is going to unfold the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: Exploring the current state of circularity progress and crucially how we can all be part of accelerating the transition and take action to combat linear lock-in, whether we are policymakers, businesses or citizens. Iain Gulland: And in this first series of episodes we will be focusing on the upcoming COP thirty one in Turkey in November, where the circle economy has been highlighted as one of the core focus areas for action in the battle to reduce climate emissions. Wayne Hubbard: and we will be talking to a range of experts with knowledge of the process who will give us their take on how national governments can incorporate circular economy principles into climate mitigation strategies. Iain Gulland: And then myself and Wayne will be going to COP in Turkey to try and put into practice what we've learned or what we've put into action what we've learnt in this series of podcasts and try and influence the COP outcome. Wayne Hubbard: So thanks for tuning in. Why don't you join us on this journey in the road to Antalya? Iain Gulland: I am Ian Golland, former Chief Executive of Zero Way Scotland, as well as past president of ACR Plus, a pan European network of cities and regions promoting more sustainable resource management and the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: And I'm Wayne Hubbard, former CEO of Reel London and advisor to cities and podcaster now. And together Ian and I have well over a million years in circular economy. At least, at least a million years. Iain Gulland: At least a million years, absolutely. So myself and Wayne are, as you've heard, are going to be talking to a range of exciting guests over the next well, over ten weeks in the run up to COP to understand a little bit more about the COP process, what we could expect, what we should expect by way of agreements or implementation plans for the circular economy specifically, as well as getting into some wider discussions around the circular economy transition. Wayne Hubbard: As ever, there is an opportunity for listeners and viewers to feed in their thoughts and questions as we go along. Please leave a comment, like and subscribe. Send us an email at unfolding at unfoldcc.com. Suggest future guests we might like to include. We're keen for this to be as interactive as possible. we are delighted to have with us today Elif Barak Tasurek from the Turkish government. Elif, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself, where you sit in the Turkish government and what your responsibilities are. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Okay, thank you very much for the invitation. It's a great opportunity actually for us to be involved in such discussions. I am the head of department of EU Single Market and Green Deal at the Ministry of Trade of Turkey. Basically, my department's responsibility is to work on the EU legislation, but most specifically on the Green Deal legislation. The reason why as Ministry of Trade, why we are dealing with these legislations, our customs union relationship, it makes us really related to the EU legislation given the trade integration between Turkey and EU. Actually, we have added this Green Deal aspect five years ago, when EU also started the initiatives of Green Deal. As Ministry of Trade, have initiated the coordination efforts within Turkey to follow EU legislation and to coordinate Turkey's efforts. What we do is actually we do have a Green Deal Action Plan, which we have adopted in 2021. And we coordinate Turkey's alignment to EU policies, both for the climate perspective and for its necessity to align with these legislation given its role on trade. So what we do is actually we shape the government policies in coordination with all the relevant government institutions. We inform our private sector in order to raise their awareness about what's coming ahead, what they should do, what type of investment they should do in order to align with all these transformation process. And also we are closely in close dialogue with the EU Commission and also other EU institutions to make things easier and to shape these policies because all these policies are quite new policies. What we see is we also see that the EU is also open to views of different stakeholders. And what we try to do is actually we try to provide our views and to make things easier for also other trade partners of the EU. Wayne Hubbard: Can I ask you, jumping straight in, why the circular economy matters to Turkey and why it matters in relation to COP 31? Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Okay. Yeah, actually, circular economy is not a new phenomenon, but it has become quite new and popular in the couple of recent years in the in the recent years, I can, I can say it really matters first, because we, we do as Turkey, we do have climate objectives, we had ratified the Paris Agreement in 2021 and submitted our national determined contribution. So we aim to achieve net zero target in 2053. since then, actually, we have accelerated our efforts to align with all these goals. However, it's also important that most of the time when we talk about climate objectives, we talk about decarbonizing energy, moving away from fossil fuels, but also the way we produce and consume is equally and maybe more strategically important to achieve climate objectives. talk about production and consumption, it goes through the circular economy and actually and also to more economic growth objectives and also to trade. actually there are many reports and findings on the importance of circular economy on achieving climate objectives. It's important to note that resource extraction and processing account for more than half of global greenhouse emissions. So only focusing on energy transition would not be sufficient. We should go through more structural change in the way we produce and consume. This is actually a new economic model that we should focus on. With respect to Turkey, We had collaborated with World Bank to understand the effects of EU circular economy policies, because actually what we see is EU is leading all these policies. It's the leader in shaping these policies and the other countries are following or shaping accordingly. the report had found out actually after making analysis of the EU policies is if Turkey follows through the circular economy transition, it would have an additional 7 % CO2 emission reductions by 2030. So that's quite significant actually. And it's an area that we should really focus on. And we should focus on that because it's not only environmental policy, it's also an economic model that we should engage all the actors, including the consumers and producers to achieve that goal, actually. Iain Gulland: Yeah, that's really, I mean, very interesting. And even that report itself, just because I guess we could argue that some of these numbers aren't as accessible for many nations. They've not done that, have they? They've not had a look at circular. There's a kind of understanding that circularity is going to help with climate emissions, but they don't have that specific number. So that's obviously galvanized, you know, yourselves in terms of embedding or certainly taking forward a lot of that circular thinking. But I'm also interested in that European dimension because I think it's something you mentioned before around alignment with basically what is a considerable size trading partner in Europe. But this isn't just about meeting regulations and such like, and standards. This is about your businesses being more circular. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Okay. Okay. Iain Gulland: to access those kind of trading, that trade. mean, that must be a massive influence as well. And then having the numbers to demonstrate that this isn't just about, yeah, we have to do this if we want to trade. This is really good for our climate ambitions. mean, both of those must be really significant drivers for your businesses in Turkey. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yes, exactly. Actually. That's the main trigger to make us go through the circular economy transition. mean, the EU has triggered many policies in that regard, not only in the world, but also in Turkey. Of course, since it's almost 30 years now that we do have a customs union with the EU and we align with EU legislation that makes us... trade like any other member states because we produce according to EU standards and EU technical legislation. But what we see with the EU Green Deal is actually, of course EU Green Deal is a comprehensive set of policies, but one of them, which is the circular economy transition, bringing product specific legislation, which are different types of legislation that we have seen so far, even though they are designed to support EU's environmental policy, it will shape EU's trade policy and does affect EU's trading partners. And as one of the important trading partners of the EU, we do follow that. It's the reason why actually we did develop our action plan. Iain Gulland: in terms of the businesses, know, what is more of a driver? Is it that economic trade opportunity or is it that climate opportunity? You know, I mean, I know the obvious answer is both, you know, but I mean, I guess for businesses, you know, on all different sizes and shapes. maybe even different sectors, guess, you know, cause I guess what makes it easy to engage with them is it because look, this is about an economic, this is about access to, you know, to trade, supply, you know, your supply chains, et cetera, or is it, you know, how does that play out when you're talking to businesses? Elif Berrak Tasyurek: The main trigger is actually, mean, of course, many of our big companies had already invested on sustainability objectives, ESG objectives. They already had certain goals, had certain net zero ambitions, even before Green Deal policies. But that makes it more common and more spread through the whole economy. is actually making when it becomes mandatory to align with certain environmental standards or rules, then it becomes market access rules. when we say to the companies that if you do not get aligned with all these rules, you may not enter the EU market. So it's not voluntary anymore. It's going to be obligatory. And this is the main trigger actually for behind the efforts of the private sector to align with all these goals actually. Wayne Hubbard: So, so. Well, I was going to say so the EU can use its trading power to kind of require circularity along the value chain. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yes, we can say that. What we see, what we try to understand, the main reason behind is actually what I'm not to say to explain the EU policy, but we are trying to understand the policy, main rationale behind to explain it to our stakeholders and to actually, of course, shape our policies. While the EU is transforming its market, And they say that we are going to invest in certain environmental policies. So there in our industry is going to invest in to reach certain goals. So our trading partners should also do that in order to level the playing field. But the important point here is actually there is an important balance here to make it in a very right and delicate way, because it's a complicated. transformation. It's not something that we can achieve in the short term. And it affects the whole economy in a gradual way, because what you had started to do is they had started with batteries, construction products and vehicles, and they're going to move through all the other products under the framework of eco-design for sustainable products regulation. So this is also really important that it's fully a widespread transformation. Iain Gulland: Yeah, I mean, I get the point. think, mean, absolutely, you know, it's a sensitive, delicate, you know, arrangement. it's quite what I think is really quite interesting, though, because, I mean, in other conversations we've had, complexity of what we're talking about in terms of material, you know, the flows of material supply chains at a global level, that's, you know, actually trade is really important, you know, trade. But some people think trade is a barrier, you know, the way, you know, the trade agreements or whatever you want to call it, is a kind of barrier or certainly is something that potentially could impede the circular economy developing at a global level. But actually what you're saying, I know it's very specific to the range of Turkey and Europe, you're kind of suggesting as an enabler, the fact that that trade exists is almost enabling greater circularity at scale across Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Okay. Iain Gulland: from Europe into Turkey and back in again. And then that could then feed back out through your supply chains. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yeah, exactly. Actually, there is a two sides of this issue. That's why it's very delicate. I mean, if you just develop a legislation so strict and so hard to be implemented, and then if you ask your trading partners to get aligned with them, irrespective of the scale of companies, then it becomes a trade barrier. But then on the other hand, if you use it as an enabler, as a facilitator to to make circular economy not a regional phenomenon but more a global phenomenon, then trade is an important tool to be used in order to make things easier. So that's the main objective actually and the main message that we are trying to give also to our EU partners and also during COP31. Iain Gulland: I know we're going to talk about copteria, but I really think that's a great message for you, Turkey, to talk like that, because you're just demonstrating how trade is an enabler for greater circularity at the global level. And that's exactly what I guess we would say, know, cop should be about. Cop should be about how do we create that collaboration, how do we create that space for greater collaboration? And we need to find enablers, things that are going to enable that to happen. at pace, you know, and yeah, you've kind of got a great story to tell about how that's working. Although, you know, obviously it's, you know, it's not an easy thing. It's a complex thing that needs to be taken in stages, but it definitely sounds like it's helping. Wayne Hubbard: Just coming back to cop, I get the impression that Turkey inherently gets the idea that... Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Okay. Wayne Hubbard: exporting emissions to the global south is not a way to achieve the climate mitigation that we need to achieve in order to meet our Paris obligations or be anywhere near our Paris obligations. You inherently get that. And I think we've got a flavor of that. how does that, what role then for COP in kind of setting out a Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Okay. Wayne Hubbard: framework in which the globe can deal with circularity in a equitable way, what is the transformation pathway I suppose. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Actually, I have said, COP31 could be, I mean, we aim to use COP31 as a platform to give the message that environmental policies, if linked with right trade policies and right legislation, could support each other. For that, there are some ways that we should go through. One of them is actually, of course, we should shape the climate strategies that focus on resource efficiency and not only how energy is produced, but also how materials are extracted, transformed, consumed. But of course this needs international cooperation and of course green finance to make everyone achieve these every country, every company at different scale to achieve such goals. Of course requires cooperation, technical assistance and technological transfer. and green finance. So these are really important things that we should focus on. for trades to be supportive, not be a barrier, is of course, then the legislation should be designed accordingly. We shouldn't put strict standards. we should rather focus on the interoperability of different standards, different we should take into consideration different legislation or different systems of countries. So this is really important actually. So what we should do is of course there are certain ambitious goals that we should go through, but we should design all these together maybe through certain stages. for others to adapt to and then reach the ambitious level gradually. know that now the climate change is getting really hard and we don't have any time to lose. But still, mean, transforming one side of the world and then leaving the other would not... would not work. So that's really important actually. Wayne Hubbard: Before Ian, I can see Ian's desperate to come in. But before he does, I just want to ask a kind of protest question, I suppose. I mean, what you're setting out sounds like it should be on the other side of COP, if COP is action agenda and the parties. But the waste... and circular economy discussion is sitting in the action agenda in this multi-level, which I think is a great place for it to sit, by the way. That's where stuff happens. But how does that Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Mm-hmm. Wayne Hubbard: bleed across to the international trade dimension, which probably sits more within the parties' negotiation? Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yeah. Actually, what we see here is we should have a comprehensive approach to circular economy. So it's not only about waste. Wayne Hubbard: Mmm. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Until now, we have focused on waste, collecting waste or recycling waste. But now it's more than that. It's a more comprehensive economic model that we are talking about. Until now, we have been focused on producing and consuming more for economic growth. But this should not be the case. Now we should produce in a way that the products should stay in the market as long as they can be. They should be durable, they should be repairable. And when they are no longer can be used, they should be recyclable. So this is an important aspect that we should focus on, the way that the raw materials are used, the process methodology of the industry, using the life cycle assessment of products. And I mean, if you're using the water in your process, how you're going recycling it, you using the right chemicals, what's your environmental footprint, all these are really complex things that now we should think about. And this is actually a mind shift for everyone. We should change our glasses, let's say, the way Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: we Iain Gulland: Thank Elif Berrak Tasyurek: look at the economy. this is the... the reality that we should focus on. But it's not easy, I have to say. it has been five years that I'm working on this topic at Ministry of Trade. And I had been in several meetings with many private stakeholders. We are continuously explaining these and we had seen important progress, I can say. As I have said, many of our big companies are already on that road, but for the SMEs to get on the train, Iain Gulland: you Elif Berrak Tasyurek: we should explain it as much as we could. And within that framework, actually, trade is really important because what we see is actually circular economy is a network economy. So you should involve your supply chain, should have your partners in line with your goals. So for that to be achieved, trade is key actually. And it enables it to global transformation rather than a regional. Iain Gulland: So music to my ears, our ears, this is really good to hear. I some of the things you're talking about, though, mean, I'm trying not to be negative, but some of the things you're talking about, so A, we've not had material efficiency, circular economy as part of a COP, not formally. This is the first time, I I was in Glasgow in COP26 and we were thinking about, you know, why is it not on the agenda? And it's not really been part of the agenda. But it is this time and that's, you know, that is really down to yourselves in Turkey. So thank you for that. But it's not been there before. So it's not really been a focus of international dialogues. You're then talking about the need, I totally agree with it, you know, international cooperation around that architecture, know, standards or ways of measurement or, know, so it's not, yeah, it doesn't have to be one size to fit all because it's just about that interoperability as you mentioned. Absolutely agree with that. And ultimately, you know, we can't, everybody needs to be involved in this. Every part of the world, we can't just do it in one part and hope for the best. need an inclusive transition. Absolutely. I just think none of that's been talked about before at COP, which is great, but great that that's what you're Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Mm-hmm. Iain Gulland: the host, you're Turkey, you're going to take that. I guess I'm interested in the run-up to COP, how's that going down? Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yeah, actually the good thing is that as as Turkey as Republic of Turkey, we had initiated zero waste initiative in 2017 and we had made it as a global phenomenon under the umbrella umbrella of UN in I don't know, 2020 probably. So this had been a global platform and this is really important in that respect. And as one of the co-hosting the COP31 together with Australia, this is an important strength that we do have. We already had this agenda, this zero-based initiative. It's the reason why we did actually adopt our national circular economy strategy and action plan. And we had involved seven priority sectors. We aim to go through that action plan and improve it in the coming period. And we had recently... initiated the deposit system, is also really important for circular economy, collection of waste in a clean way and motivating the citizens to collect and separate their waste and take the effort to go through that deposit systems and put them there is really important. In that respect, are ahead of many EU countries. That's the strength that we did have. It's the reason why we have the zero waste as an action agenda. I also had always had this feeling that something is missing in climate policies, that the circular economy had not been there. And in many of our meetings, people are most of the time would like to talk about, for instance, carbon policies, carbon border adjustment mechanism. But we always say that we should also focus on circular economy because it's more comprehensive, because we need a mind shift there. It's not only about, I mean... calculating your carbon emissions and reporting them or making some investments to decrease their carbon emissions. Circular economy is a greater phenomenon and it requires the private sector to think differently, consumers to act differently and policymakers to make policies supporting circular economy. It's not only about legislative alignment, of course. in order to go through all this circular economy transition, you need to adopt many supporting policies to shape that. And I would gladly say that we are on that road in a very ambitious and decisive way. So I hope that it will have reflections on COP 31. Since we do have this zero-based action agenda, many of the side events, many of the specialized events are also shaped under that agenda. we Iain Gulland: you Elif Berrak Tasyurek: will see many discussions on circular economy and it will have an effect on climate policies and for this transition, of course. Wayne Hubbard: It's just amazing to hear you say this. mean, our podcast series has kind of like led up really to this moment because we've Elif Berrak Tasyurek: good. Wayne Hubbard: been articulating a lot of this, you know, and trying to kind of say... that circular economy deals with the emissions that other climate mitigation strategies cannot reach. So it's really quite, it's amazing to hear you say that, to hear Turkey kind of taking that position. I mean, I guess, are your hopes for legacy from COP? Because it's all very well saying this. I mean, it's amazing to hear you say this, but I, know, so Ian and I will be there, by the way. So if you need any help kind of articulating Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Great. Wayne Hubbard: this argument, we are going to try and get ourselves in front of whoever we can get ourselves to help articulate that argument. And so we'll be advocating for kind of a legacy and then continuing work. So maybe you can tell us a bit about that. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: I think what I see in the previous experience is that many of the COPs actually shapes the future talks and focus of countries. There will be many initiatives, many declarations adopted during COP 31. And I know that many of them will be also focusing on circular economy, on resource efficiency. We are also following discussions under WTO, under OECD, and also other international platforms. And we see that all these discussions and all these triggering points also shape the future discussion, then it's really important for the countries actually to start thinking about, yes, we should also focus on this. So actually, my expectation in that regard is positive. So we will talk more about circular economy in the coming future. And this is really important because as I have said, this is a This has to be an economic transformation and it could not be achieved only by a single country or a single region. So we should talk about it as a global phenomenon. We should look for policies to facilitate that and we should prevent any policy that makes these any... taught about as a trade barrier. So this will be really important actually in the coming period. Iain Gulland: I think Wayne just said it. I mean, in a way, I'm just hoping everybody, everybody else who's spoken to hears this podcast, because in a way, you know, guess others were saying a little bit more, the people were more hopeful. that all of the things you've said would be how this went out, but everybody was feeling a little bit more, well, you know, there might be a sense that it's, you know, we just end up talking about waste management or we end up, you know, it gets crowded out still by the kind of fossil fuel decarbonisation agenda. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Okay. Iain Gulland: So, yeah, maybe people were trying to kind of manage expectations, but now listening to you and you are the host, so in a way you're at kind of front and centre of this. It feels really positive. It feels that you're going in with a clear mandate, a clear focus of what you're aiming to achieve, particularly in that circular economy sphere. you're saying all that, yeah, it's like we're ticking off all the things you're saying here. So that's hugely encouraging. mean, yeah, and it's kind of, yeah, I'm glad I'm going now. This is really, really good. Yeah. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Great. I'm glad. Wayne Hubbard: Will you be hosting any events personally, Alif? Are you going to be involved in Blue Zone negotiations? Elif Berrak Tasyurek: We will be hosting events. We will have two events in Turkey Pavilion. One on SMEs and the green finance opportunities that we offer as Ministry of Turkey. And the other is actually on circular economy, more on the supply. on secondary materials, the importance of secondary materials for green transition. And we also host a whole day event on the 13th of November, just after the Leaders Summit. We are hosting it together with WTO. It will be a finance and trade day. health day, it will be high level with our minister and all the ministerial speakers. And the second day will be also more technical panels, more on, of course, involving circular economy. And we do also hope to have our plan to be updated just before COP. So we will have a small session. explaining our updated Green Deal action plan just before the lunch break. So yeah, there will be many events that we are hosting. It will be Wayne Hubbard: You Elif Berrak Tasyurek: busy, but we will be of course glad to see you there. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, well, I mean, we're glad to be there, actually. guess just as a final, thing, do you have any kind of final aspirations for COP? Is there anything you wanted to say that you haven't had the opportunity to say? Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yes, actually, maybe we should also focus on the enablers and facilitate elements for the circular economy transition. mean, for many countries, there will be difficulties in achieving these objectives. There will be difficulties in reaching out technology because it requires change in technology. It requires innovation because we need to reach out to a new generation raw materials. So it will require skills. And now we are talking about if you're talking about a new economic model, then this skills have to adapt to all these. And we do also, of course, have to talk about digitalization. Maybe at that point I hadn't mentioned effectively, but circular economy could be best achieved, course, with digitalization. EU is trying to support this with digital product passport, but there should be that we need to access the data and verify data. and to assess these data to make things more efficient, to increase efficiency. So all these require different skills, different technologies and digitalization. So countries need to focus on their needs. I mean, if we will talk about circular economy transition in a global framework, then we need to find ways to support developing or underdeveloped countries for that transition too. So COP31 should actually initiate these efforts too in that respect. I can say that. Iain Gulland: Yeah, Wayne Hubbard: Amazing. Iain Gulland: that's really good. I mean, I was at the Euro Zero Waste Forum event in Istanbul in June and it was really interesting there. was a kind of couple of interesting conversations I was involved in around, know, sometimes we always think the answer is we've got this refillable, reusable, repairable initiative. We just need to replicate it into another country, you know, and it will work. you know, that's how to do it. But actually the conversation was more around exactly what you're saying. It's not, it's actually how do you increase the skills or the access to digital platforms and upskill people in those countries to, cause all the systems might be slightly different. can't, know, sometimes you can't just lift a scheme and drop it into another part of the world. It will work slightly differently or very much differently because of the different global contexts that you find yourself in. So it's how do we share those skills? How do we upscale, create access to digital platforms and all the things you've just talked about? That's what we should be really focusing on as much as, we've got a great scheme up here. Why don't you just replicate it? And I think that was, yeah, you talk about the whole global perspective there, not just focusing on what works in one part of the world. So yeah, that's really interesting. I definitely agree with that. That's something I don't think we spend a lot of time. thinking about, you know, we just think, well, we know something that works, let's just make it work everywhere. But Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yeah. Iain Gulland: upskilling people in their own situations, I think is a key part, yeah, something we don't think about. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Wayne Hubbard: Okay, Elif, I I just want to say it's been great having you as a guest. Thank you very much for finding the time in what I'm sure is a very busy time of year for you right now in the Red Upto Cop. So really appreciate you finding the time. you know, I think speaking on behalf of Ian and myself, I hope we get to meet you in Antalya and carry on the conversation. Elif Berrak Tasyurek: Yes, it has been a pleasure actually to discuss these topics with you. Thank you very much for your invitation. And please get in touch. We will be glad to see you in Antalya. Wayne Hubbard: That amazing. That was pretty bloody good, wasn't it? Actually, my God, I couldn't quite believe it. That someone, that you, you you hear a civil servant, a senior member of a national government saying those things that we've been saying for years, but, you know, not being heard. I mean, that's pretty amazing, isn't it? Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, no, it was. was. I mean, Sally, I mean, hugely encouraging that that's what, you know, not just her, but, you know, her department or her government is going into court clearly to try and broaden out, let's be honest about it, broaden out the climate discussions into material efficiency and consumption Wayne Hubbard: and consumption emissions. I mean, she was, she was. Iain Gulland: emissions. I mean, we didn't get into the whole technical thing about it. measuring them. You know, but yeah, she's going in, that's what she's saying, they're going in with that message. yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, but it was clear, wasn't it, that that view that you cannot you cannot deal Iain Gulland: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: with the climate crisis through electrification and renewables alone. It's only, you know, half the story. Iain Gulland: Yeah, she was saying that, yeah. We need to do it. But at the same time, they're not just waving that flag. They understand that that is a new challenge. It's a challenge that needs to be addressed as much as anything. But it does need international cooperation. We need to think through all that architecture at a global level so it all kind of works together, so we don't do it all in silos. And also, yeah, we need to think about the transition for everyone, know, so not just the global north, but the global south and all the things that go with that in terms of finance, up-skilling, you know, the deployment of innovation or technical, you know, what do we call it, you know, AI, you know, which we all see as enablers, but they will be dealt with differently to some extent in different parts of the world for all the obvious reasons. So they've kind of thought that through, you know, they've kind of, wow, yeah. She's kind of even talked about the stages to some extent to make this happen. So that, yeah, wow. We haven't heard that from anybody else. Wayne Hubbard: I suppose, I suppose being in my, being in, I mean we were talking about this before we started recording, but being in my kind of re-London job, you know, you do get the opportunity to speak to other people, of course you do, outside of London and outside of the UK, but to be honest, I've never really, I haven't clocked the fact that Turkey were... you know, advanced in their thinking, because it's usually the Dutch, isn't it? Or the Finns, and you kind of have this, you know, circular economy stereotype. But to hear, you know, Turkey are really leading on this, they? They're Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: the leading exponent right now of circular economy, it seems to me. Is that unfair? I think that's right, isn't it? Iain Gulland: Well, I guess they're vocalizing it, certainly for sure. Wayne Hubbard: Hmm. Iain Gulland: And they've got COP, they're focused on COP, so they've got something to aim at. It's not just rhetoric for the sake of it. They've got something. But I also think, mean, I might, maybe, hopefully it didn't sound too disingenuous about the, because of the European Union's stance on circular economy in terms of thinking about products. decode design, all of the kind of legislation that's going through Europe because Turkey is, well, it's part of the, The Wayne Hubbard: yeah. Iain Gulland: customs union of trade, that is driving. That's what I'm saying, that trade is enabling them, you know, because they have to be, they have to start adopting. It's not just about regulatory alignment. They need to build in circular thinking, you know, it's what you call it, a change of mindset in businesses, how businesses are stepping Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: up. not just in sustainability, but thinking about how they can be sold. So it's almost like, yeah, that's the enabler. And they've said, that's almost like woken them up to, yeah, we need to be doing this. But we need to all be doing this at a global level. And we need Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: to be pushing for this. it's kind of, yeah, it's brilliant. I it is really, Wayne Hubbard: Stunning. Iain Gulland: And I think we've heard that. I you're right. We go around the world. We talk to other people. We hear it. But it's usually seen as, well, yeah, we all understand that this needs to happen, but that's not where we're at. We're always just talking about decarbonisation and electrification. That's where the COP discussions have been. So suddenly the fact Wayne Hubbard: But it... Iain Gulland: that it's on the agenda and it's not just been thrown in there, there's a strategy behind it. We've kind of thought it through. Wayne Hubbard: Well, I think that, well, you know, the thing where I've seen it in practical terms, I suppose this is blooming obvious really is at the city level. So, you know, I've seen. I've seen circular economy roadmaps and I've seen people talk about consumption and materials at that level. And I've seen them do it at national level but kind of shy away from it as well and back off a bit because they realize the implications of this are, know, in ladders. framing you can't fix the system you have to reimagine it you know so and that was some of the that's some of the mood music if you like that we we were just getting from Aleph you know we have to reimagine the system it's quite radical Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah. I know we've always had, you know, I've you know, cities, regions, all of that, kind of coming up from the grassroots. Absolutely, you know, you know, delivery, you know, out of the possible need to see that scaling. But we've always had this idea unless we sort out the kind of international system, if you want to call it, unless we start thinking, you know, at a global level, then, you know, we probably will hit a ceiling at some stage, you know. all the obvious reasons but they are I think sounds like Turkey's recognized that and say yeah we need to do something about it so let's get on the agenda at COP and let's start talking about this and let's you know let's to some extent start organizing ourselves around that international cooperation for circularity. Yeah absolutely that's it was great to hear so yeah let's go you know let's I mean obviously we Wayne Hubbard: Let's go. Yeah. Iain Gulland: know Wayne Hubbard: We are. Iain Gulland: It's the first conversation of many, I'm sure. But it's an opportunity there. Like we've been talking about, this has to be an opportunity. And the fact that the hosts see it as an opportunity and see the scale of that opportunity, not Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Yeah. Iain Gulland: saying, they didn't, I mean, she didn't come on and say, well, let's manage expectations, guys. Let's just work out what we might Wayne Hubbard: No she didn't did she and she could have done that. Yeah. Iain Gulland: be able to achieve here. They'd certainly go around with a clear. Yeah, clear message around why this is important and, you know, not just from a Turkey point of view, you know, from a global point of view and let's organizing ourselves, you know, to make this, to take this forward. yeah, yeah. Wayne Hubbard: Right, okay, so there's our challenge. So Ian and I, well, look, we'll reach out. We'll reach out to our fellow professionals. I think we've got to lean into this, haven't we? We've got to lean into this opportunity. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: So, and also just, I guess, for people reviewing this, you can tell it's getting later in the year because Ian's room has gone dark. So you can tell we are Iain Gulland: I know, I know. Wayne Hubbard: approaching cop time. And so I think we've got a few more interviews to do and a few more discussions to have, but at some point Ian and I are gonna kind of summarize where we're at in concise and relatively comprehensive way and hopefully come up with the bare bones of a manifesto of sorts to take with us to COP. And yeah, we'll probably reach out to fellow professionals to take their temperatures well offline. Iain Gulland: Thank you for listening. That's the end of this episode. You have been listening to Unfolding, a Circle Economy podcast. I've been Ian Gulland. He's been Wayne Hubbard. And thank you to Elif, who was our guest today. Please listen to our next episode. There is more to come.