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The End of the World According to Susy Smith · WriterCon

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This week on the writer Con podcast. Well, for me, the best
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advice I've ever had is don't quit. Don't stop, and so that's what
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that's my answer is. Even when you feel like stop and just keep going.
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I mean, even if you write a paragraph a day, at least
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you're moving forward in some way, So don't get discouraged. Welcome to writer
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Con, a gathering place for writers to share their knowledge about writing and the
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writing world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, award winning author of
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the want Land Files book series. Hey, they're writers. I'm joined today
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as usual by our sound engineer, Jesse Ulrich and my wife and the award
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winning novelist Laura Bernhardt. Let me tell you a little bit about our plans
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for the future of the podcast. We're going to record more episodes this year.
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We did that a little bit during the summer run up to a writer
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Con. It seemed to work. We got a lot more subscribers and listeners.
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So we're going to continue doing more episodes. But I can see already
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that there's gonna be a week here and there where we just can't do it
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a fifth week and a month or whatever. So periodically we're gonna run a
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classic episode, which just means we're gonna pluck the interview from a past episode.
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We won't repeat the news, which is surely not news anymore. But
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if there's an and I mean, if you've heard it, fine, skip
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it, but you might have missed it, or forgotten it, or just
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need to hear it again. So here is an extra jolt of writer Con
1:51
occasionally in the form of writer Con classics. Laura, you've listened to I
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think all of these. Do you have a favorite interview from past up episodes?
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Hmm, I say probably Steve Berry, which again maybe a little biased.
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We we know Stephen Liz and they've taken us through Disney a little bit,
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which of course we love. They're on the A list for all because
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they share our love of Disney. But what a great interview he gave,
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and some very very honest and open commentary on his experiences with publishing. I
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think that's good for us all to hear. Yeah, you remember, and
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he talked about the Maybe he doesn't want us to remind people, but the
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publisher Shure who recommended that he write a book outside his series, his hugely
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successful series, which you would think no publisher would ever say, and yet
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they did. And of course the book wasn't what they hoped it would be.
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Didn't matter. Steve pulled it back together smart and he's a very good
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That's an example of you know, if you think it's just people who are
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just starting out who have problems, no, everybody has problems. This is
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a tough business. But if you're persistent and you don't quit, it works
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out. Jesse, how about you, do you have a favorite? You've
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been with his podcast for years now. I mean the problem is my favorites
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would be ones where like the guest had a microphone and headphones, so like
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it wasn't it wouldn't be the content so much as it would be the audio
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quality to do the interview on their phone. Yes, in that case,
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Barry's interview that he did in my studio, that one sounded great. So
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yeah, the sound was excellent. I got to agree. Okay. Our
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interview today is with Susie Smith, who has just published her second novel,
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Ascendant, which is a sequel to Asylum. These are terrific post apocalyptic thrillers.
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And I'm kind of a sucker for that genre. If you are too,
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you're gonna love these books, and you may love them even if you're
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not. We'll talk to Susie about her work. But first the news Jesse
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take us away. Well, you knew what was going to happen, and
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it did. There have, of course, been a slew of class action
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lawsuits filed against open AI, usually alleging copyright infringement, because the programs appeared
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to be, to use the technical term, scraping copyrighted material found somewhere on
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the Internet and using it to train these AI generative problems. Now we already
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had a couple seven Actually we reported on the two lawsuits filed by Sarah Silverman
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and friends. But now the Author's Guild, the closest thing writers have in
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this country to a union, The Author's Guild filed a class action lawsuit against
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against open AI, not the first, but one. People are paying attention
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to open it because they represent so many lawyers, and so many big names
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like George R. R. Martin have joined the lawsuit. Now open AI,
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of course has filed a motion to dismiss, and that's pretty much what
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always happens. But the Author's Guild is working with a different law firm than
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the other lawsuits, and two different law firms in fact, to bring their
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case, which is only focusing on copyright infringement of fiction writers. There are
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a lot of other things that openye AI can do that you could complain about,
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but they're focusing because it's the Author's Guild writers and writers claims copyright protection
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and and that sort of thing. Laura, you're going to join the class
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action lawsuit if you get an option on principle, yes, I would.
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Quick search didn't pull up any of my books in some of these rude I
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know, right? Well, maybe not explain what that is, Laura,
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I know, how do you want to feel about that? But it doesn't
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look like my books are are being used in any sort of copyright violation way.
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But I support everyone who who is finding their books there. Didn't you
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say some of my books were there? Yes, they are, Dear.
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It's sexist too, yeah, it's stealing people stuff and it's sexist. Unbelievable
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thing is that what I've been seeing on like Instagram and whatnot, authors like
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searching a thing for their name to see if their books have been scraped that
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is okay. I figured it's just one of a number of software usages.
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But yes, that's exactly what's happening, so that won't Who knows, maybe
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maybe another system is scraping my books. Yeah, right now, Jesse,
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I thought you might actually like this because you can now use open ai to
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generate those last two George R Listen. I mean because he's not gonna get
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George, my guy, like, let your people handle this, get get
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to clack on your word process or buddy, I needed I need to see
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where this book goes. Maybe that's why he's in the lawsuit. He's afraid
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somebody. Yeah, yeah, I just I'm just like, it's gonna it's
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gonna be another Robert Jordan situation where Brandon Sanerson gets hired to finish Game of
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Thrones and I'm gonna be like fine, which I mean, those books were
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great, so it's just it it Uh, it's really just a running joke
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now where I think he just doesn't want to finish them, so clearly he
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does not want to know having more fun doing TV, which I totally get.
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Yeah, no, listen, I get it. Live your best life,
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George. But I mean this this isn't. This is one of those
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weirdly important things because just because these books are private materials, they shouldn't be
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on the internet easily accessible via a scraper that Opening Eye is using, and
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so they shouldn't have access to it unless they pay you for it. And
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then even so it should be a different fee if they're going to use it
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in their sort of AI tools that helps other people create things. It's it's
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a whole new sort of branch of like creative commons, you know, fair
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use type of arguments of like what is fair use of someone's story via an
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AI tool? Like we don't know the term. We agree, and people
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have come to consider that art should be free, and I don't understand that
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theft is theft if you if you take something that someone has worked hard to
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create and you don't compensate them for it, and they didn't offer it to
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you for free, you have stolen it. Yes, in my mind,
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it is that simple. And writers have to eat too, so that is
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correct tuition. A lot of other stuff. Okay, news story too is
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sort of the flip side of a I and another instance of a story that
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I never thought I would read. But this is apparently true. Two huge
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Silicon Valley training data giants. That is, people who are training these AI
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programs, Scale AI and Appen are hiring wait for it, you're thinking programmers,
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tech experts. No, they're hiring poets, poets and writers with humanities
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backgrounds, including in foreign languages, and they're being asked to write original short
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stories to feed AI models, so nobody can complain that they stole copyright material.
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But still the programs are getting original fiction, obviously to boost the literary
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quality of these AI generative writing tools. So what do you think about that,
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Jesse? You think you could teach AI to write poetry? I mean,
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this is it's a classic Jurassic Park conundrum, Like just because we can
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do something doesn't mean we should do something. And I appreciate these authors and
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poets wanting a salary, probably much higher salary than they get doing their art,
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but yeah, they're training the enemy here and I don't really I worry
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about this. Yeah this is yeah, yeah again, just be and you
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know who knows what. I still truly believe that, like a, I
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will never be able to perfectly mimic a human beings creativity because human creativity is
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not orderly, and it's not. It's chaotic. It doesn't always make sense
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from a mathematical standpoint, And as long as that stays true, you'll always,
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I believe, we always be able to sort of tell if if a
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machine created something versus the person. So, but maybe I'm just being overly
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optimistic. Well, it depends on whether they're trying to well, right,
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well, if you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean I think
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I could imitate AI generated prose, yeah, and pass it off. But
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I don't think AI could imitate me and pass it off as a William Bernhardt
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book. Yet would it know to make like a Star Trek reference every like
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thirty four pages? Right? I don't think you would know that? I
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mean, if you fed it all twenty Ben Kincaid novels, Could it write
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a twenty first? Probably? A question is how good would it be?
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How good would it be? I actually, just for curiosity's sake, used
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an AI resource to see how it would what kind of book description it would
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produce for one of my books, just to see, and I thought it
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was trash. I would never have used it. Happy creatives create from a
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place of usually very high emotion. It might be very negative, very positive.
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We've usually been through a lot, and that I think is what produces
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good art, and no computer is going to be able to make that.
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The problem is do people become so accustomed to it that they don't know the
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difference anymore, that they're just they're used to seeing average, adequate, okay
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writing and they decide that's the bar Jesse speaking of AI generated stories here,
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I'm about to make a Star Trek reference. Star Trek just cut to the
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interview. But you remember in the episode where Data goes under Halo Deck wanting
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to be Sherlock Holmes. Yes, he already read all the stories. Has
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Halo Deck generates a completely new story for him? Yeah, a murder bop
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that tries to take over the ship. Well there is that, yes,
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but it did generate a pretty good story for it, did it did?
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But I like, yeah, the Data trying to be more human stories always
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leads to a weird technical question. We were like, okay, he wants
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to dream, Like do we want our robots AI androids dreaming? I don't
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know, Like some things are human based and it's like it like the whole
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point of that argument was that the computer, the Star Trek the Enterprise computer
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was able to create an enemy that could defeat data the android right, and
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thus made a hologram that was able to do things that holograms couldn't do.
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We will bypass all the problems with that episode. But yeah, the amount
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of like what I guess the question is and humanity has answer? This is
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what we want our AI bots to do? Do we want them to be
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artists? Like? Is that something we need a society? I don't.
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I think we have plenty of artists. We just pay them. I'm gonna
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go ahead and play Devil's Advocate here. You guys are this, yes,
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Beck, but the story was written by a human. That's right. Okay,
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here's what we do. We get. We get we open AI to
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rewrite that Star Trek episode and see how it turns out, and see which
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one's better. And that's how you figure it out exactly. You know,
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a competition, a competition between humans and AI to who can write a better
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novel. I think the human's gonna win, but it'd be fun to see
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it. Well, who judges? That's true? In our writer con magazine,
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we have an entry where one of our authors did exactly that and came
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up with some pretty marginal results. Yeah, it's worth reading about. Check
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out all right, check out the magazine. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely.
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Everybody wants the writer kind of magazine, and you'll be able to find
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out how to do that just by reading the show notes. All right,
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Jesse, cue up the music. Let's talk to Susie Smith. So welcome
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to the podcast. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you,
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and Laura you too. Okay, you know what the first question is
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going to be if you could offer writers piece of advice, what would it
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be? Well? For me, the best advice I've ever had is don't
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quit, don't stop, and so that's what I that's my answer is even
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when you feel like stop and just keep going. I mean, even if
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you write a paragraph a day, at least you're moving forward in some way,
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So don't get discouraged. You'll get there. Good advice. Hey,
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you've got a new book out which is a sequel to Asylum, which is
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over my head because even though I had a I couldn't find it. So
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we probably sold them all a fright or con right because you sold a bunch.
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So that's why I have Asylum there. But the new book is,
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but they're related, So tell us about Ascendant. Ascendant picks up right where
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Asylum leaves off, and it's basically in a nutshell these two books. It's
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a series. I'm starting. I mean, I'm in the middle of the
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third one. It's a story of survival story, a story about my protagonist
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and her her struggle to survive against the government who has taken over when the
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United States went through what I call a big the big crash. So it's
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it's her, it's her story about survival. So we're in kind of a
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post disaster world, post apocalyptic. Yeah, I think of the walking walking
17:15
dead without the zombies. So did the zombies don't matter? It's mostly people
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killing each other. I might prefer your version. I think I think this
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sounds actually like something that a lot of people predict. I mean, it
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doesn't sound that far fetched. A lot of people are predicting that we're going
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to suffer a crash like that. How did you choose or create this setting
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for these books the series? Well, I wanted a backdrop that it's really
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a backdrop I and I didn't want to do a sickness because that had been
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done and I so I was thinking, and then I was actually just looking
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around at the United States and seeing, you know, just kind of judging
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where we're at, where we were at, and after nine to eleven,
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you know, everything kind of just everybody got scared and our security bubbles popped,
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and so I just that's what made me start thinking. And I thought,
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well, an economic meltdown, an economic crash, is not I mean,
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that's not that far fetched. I mean, we had that trouble in
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two thousand and eight, and you know, so who's to say that there
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couldn't be a big crash. And so I kind of went from there.
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So many good stories start with that question, what if any from there?
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Can you give us a little bit of a hint what's coming in future books?
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And do you do you know how many there will be. I'm right
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in the middle of the third one, and I I don't know if this
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is the correct thing to say or not. I'm not quite sure. There's
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a couple of ways that I could end it there. There there's a couple
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of ways I could end it. And if I end it I open ended,
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I can keep writing, or I could put a put a period on
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it and you know, maybe revisit it later, but at least people will
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have a satisfying resolution where they can, you know, be okay. So
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I really haven't decided. I'm in the middle and it's come in time.
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I mean, it's the closer I get, you know, the more you
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know. I'm just trying to make that decision. So I just saw offer
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some advice from the guy who hasn't read the manuscript and only marginally knows what
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you're talking about. But my advice is leave the door open. Glad you
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did, you can still give the book a satisfying I mean I am talking
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about I said they were only going to be Daniel six Daniel Pike books too,
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but I seem to have just published the seventh. So leave the door
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open. What I'm saying you might get a better idea later. Well there
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is. You know. The thing about secondary characters that I absolutely love is
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that as the more books that you that you write with them in there,
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the more they develop. And I'm I'm I could I could do it from
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another character's perspective. So I do have ideas. So I think it'll come
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to you. About two or three weeks ago, I got hit with a
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sudden idea for a different ending to my current work in progress, which is
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about three fourths of the way finished, and I went back to my outlet.
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It gave me all the feels I got really excited about. I got
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goosebumps. I texted a couple people. I was like, what if I
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do this instead? And they were like, yes, do it, and
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so I bet you have a moment like that, and I'm I mean,
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I just it's fine. I'll go back when I'm revising, I'm like,
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catch things that weren't quite right for that ending, and I'll make it sit
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of a work right, right. Hey, Susie, you've been part of
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this writer con world for a while. I know you've come to the conferences.
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I remember you're at one of the small group what we call retreats.
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Now, but was it two three four years ago? You won the big
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contest it, right, and that was with Asylum, Right, you won
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the best Novel con And of course now it's been published, right yep,
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twenty twenty yep. So that was cool. But my question is going to
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be out the small group because we talk about these retreats sometimes and I think
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sometimes people, you know, they can see the benefit of a big conference,
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but what's the benefit to you. Do you think of being in a
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small group retreat an environment like that, Ah, there's there's nothing that compares
22:11
to it. I love the don't get me wrong. I love writer con
22:12
I love the big the big setting, but I actually prefer the retreats because
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you get more one on one time, not only with you and Laura,
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but with fellow writers, and getting their feedback is invaluable. I mean,
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it's it's something that I couldn't get sitting here at home trying, you know,
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writing by myself. I couldn't get it anywhere else. So that's that's
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a huge benefit, at least for me. That's that's that's a boon that
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I mean, that's the best thing ever is to get other writers feedback on
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what you've written. You know that a lot of the people listening to the
22:59
podcast are writers like we are, and they like to know all about process.
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So traditional question answer or planner, I am half happen, I am
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half absolutely right down the middle. Yes, yes, that that is great.
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I I do I do uh write an outline. There are benefits to
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having an outline, to knowing where you're starting, knowing where you're ending,
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and having you know something in the middle that is going to sustain you through
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writing what I call the muddy middle. So but as far as to the
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letter and making that outline so detailed that I don't stray from it. That's
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no, no, no, no, no no, I don't do that.
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I allow myself grace. I guess for the story to go where I
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think it needs to go. And I look back at the outline and I'm
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like, I'm on chapter you know, eighteen, and I'm only describing what's
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way up here. So and different things have happened, so you know,
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I'll go back and I have an outline for sure, kind of like what
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you're describing. I think it's smart to give yourself that creative lead way,
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but I'll go back and modify as things change and adapt and I get a
24:32
better idea or like something or a new idea. I absolutely do. I
24:37
think that's just smart, smart to keep it open to yourself so that those
24:44
new ideas can benefit your book. I think that's good. I don't think
24:47
planning means we have everything nailed down when we start right well, in like
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in the second book I had, like in Acendant, I guess a sendant
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it happened and over a very specific period of time, and I was going,
25:03
I was changing perspectives, you know, and to keep track of the
25:10
timeline and the days I had on that part, I had to be very
25:17
so I was very detailed, and I'd go and i'd write, write down
25:22
everything that I had done on that day. Okay, you know, so
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I wouldn't get confused. Sure, that's perfect usage of an outline. And
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yeah, what does your typical writing day look like? Are you still juggling
25:38
maybe a daytime job with writing, are you do you have the luxury of
25:41
focusing primarily on writing. I really wish I had the luxury of focusing primarily
25:48
on writing. I could. I think I could get a lot more done.
25:51
I wake up at five o'clock every morning, I get around and I
25:56
devote at least an hour of writing before I go to work, before I
26:03
go to my daytime job. So and then if I have time somewhere else,
26:08
then that's just a bonus. But at least I've gotten, you know,
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and I've I've disciplined myself. I'm very very disciplined about that hour.
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It's beneficial to me in several different ways, not just to get my writing.
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You know, progress progress, but it's also a mental thing with me,
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and it also really really helps my I don't know, mental stability,
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I guess is what you'd say. Well, I'm impressed and jealous. I'm
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not coherent at five am. If I make myself get up at five am,
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I won't be productive. Bill laughs, Thank you. I decided not
26:52
to weigh in. I kept my lips closed. That's not my productive time.
26:56
I think it's important that people acknowledge what's going to work for them and
27:02
then stick with it. That's right, that's the important thing. And if
27:06
you work well and that's the that's the process that produces words on the page
27:11
for you wonderful, wonderful and good. But not me, I, to
27:18
Bill's chagrin, do much better if I stay up late working rather. You
27:23
know, some people are night owls, like you know, my husband's a
27:27
night out. I kind of get a second wind, like when everything calms
27:30
down. Bill talks about liking to get up in the morning when the house
27:33
is quiet. I like when everyone is nice, button done to bed,
27:37
and it goes quiet again, and it's like I get a second wind and
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ideas start churning. It fascinates me. I love talking to everyone and hearing
27:48
what works, and we hear a different process for almost every writer. But
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the important thing is what you said earlier, stick with it and make sure
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you actually do keep going. Yes, So since we've acknowledge Susie that you've
28:00
been at this for a while, is that fair? It was not an
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overnight success road to publication And we mentioned that you've been to the Writer Connor
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retreats. Everything you heard there was brilliant, of course, But have there
28:17
been any obstacles or any bad advice or bad experiences along the way. I
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haven't really had any bad experiences with writer Connor or anything like that. I
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think learning to write is something that every writer has to work out for themselves.
28:41
And like on Asylum, I tell everybody with Asylum, I learned how
28:48
to write on that book because that book was a process for me that took
28:53
quite a while. I had a first draft and I completely tore it apart.
28:57
Kind of makes me tear up maybe a little bit, but I uh,
29:03
I completely tore it apart. I mean I kept them, I kept
29:07
the bones of it, the root, the root of it, but but
29:12
I changed, but basically changed everything else and and even still then I had
29:18
to go back and and re edit and learn how to, uh make every
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word count and and you know, watch you know, make those words count
29:30
that kind of a thing. So absolutely, Well, are there any positive
29:37
lessons that you've learned along the way? Then some survival tips or something you
29:41
didn't know at the beginning but it was helpful later, survival tips. I
29:52
don't I something that improved your writing? So well, okay, you put
29:56
it that way. Having worked with you, I'm going to say writing has
30:00
improved significantly because your voice is in the back of my head and I say
30:11
this to everyone. How I'm looking at a character and I'm putting it in,
30:17
putting them in a worst case scenario, and I hear your voice say,
30:22
how can you make it worse? How can it be worse than that?
30:26
You know, go that extra step? How can it? You know?
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And so that was a really good piece of advice because the books that
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I write, I need to be intense and and I need to be quick,
30:40
fast paced, you know it, snap, snap, snap, snap,
30:42
and putting my characters in the in the worst possible position, and then
30:49
and then and then dropping them into a hole. After that, you can
30:57
so. Yeah, that was That was one of the best things that I've
31:02
ever heard to date, and it stays with me, it really does.
31:07
Okay, Laura, I think that should be on my tombstone. How can
31:11
you make it worse? Note it all? Right? One last question,
31:18
which I think you've already touched on, but what's next? What are you
31:22
going to work on next? I am right in the middle of the third
31:26
book of the Asylum series, and I when I finished, I'll I will
31:33
probably leave that door open. I may jump to something else. I may
31:37
jump and give my brain a break from post apocalyptic stuff and lean more towards
31:45
a paranormal jaunt. Maybe I'll stay in the sci fi. I'll stay in
31:49
the sci fi genre though I love it. Go figure. I wouldn't have
31:55
thought that in a million years. Well, I didn't expect to be writing
32:00
legal thrillers, since that term didn't exist in nineteen ninety one when my first
32:07
book was published. But sometimes you can't predict everything right, exactly right.
32:15
But here you are two books and a third under the belt, and probably
32:17
more after that. We'll all be very anxiously waiting for them. Hey,
32:23
thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you for having me. I graduate
32:27
it, Lauren, it's getting close to Halloween. Tell us about the wooland
32:37
Files. This is a supernatural suspense series. I like to describe as the
32:43
X Files meets ghost Hunters. So we have we have psychic who goes around
32:49
examining and investigating paranormal disturbances. And she has a partner who is a skeptic
32:55
who does not believe ghosts exist, so she sees dead people he doesn't believe
33:00
in goes. But they're both really hot, so there's some good chemistry,
33:04
lots of fun. I actually was pleased to see that the latest release,
33:08
last year's release, Christmas Spirit, was a finalist recently in one of my
33:15
one of the awards that I entered it into in the horror category. So
33:19
very delightful. Laura, you've said all the essential information about this book series,
33:24
except you wrote it. Of course, let's give credit where I do.
33:31
You wrote these wonderful Oh God, yes, and I will also mention
33:40
you can hold the applause. The seventh book in the Daniel Bike Legal Thriller
33:47
series, and technically the twentieth book in the Beinkincaid Legal Thriller series, is
33:52
now on sale. Just last week, my new book Partners in Crime came
33:58
out, which takes our are to my two series Lawyers on a cross country
34:02
road trip where they're going to encounter Roswell aliens and San Diego cosplay, no
34:10
storms, barroom brawls, assassination attempts, possible cartel rubout, and an old
34:16
acquaintance who is now behind bars. So please give it a look. The'll
34:22
the links in the show notes. Okay, for both Laura and I's books
34:25
and my books. Until next time, keep writing and remember and I fail
34:32
if you refuse to quit, all right, I'll see you next time