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IDAHO STUDENT MURDERS: Bombshell Announcement · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace as droves of students and
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Speaker 1: others gather together to mourn for University Idaho students slaughtered
0:23
Speaker 1: in their sleep, The question remains, who's the killer? I'm
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
0:32
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious X one
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Speaker 1: eleven listen an eerie silence inside the Kibbie Doome before
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Speaker 1: tonight's vigil. The sound of buzzing and beeping metal detectors
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Speaker 1: made more noise than the thousands of students who stood
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Speaker 1: on the field to honor the life and memory of Ethan, Zanna, Kaylee,
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Speaker 1: and Madison, who were found stabbed to death in this
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Speaker 1: home off campus seventeen days ago. Candles weren't allowed inside
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Speaker 1: the Kibbe Domes, so students instead lit up their phones
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Speaker 1: as the names of each student were read aloud, a
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Speaker 1: moment of silence, a pillar of light representing each life lost.
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Speaker 1: We don't know how long this investigation will take, and
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Speaker 1: we don't know the why behind this horrific act, but
1:11
Speaker 1: what we do know is we will all go through
1:13
Speaker 1: this together. Xanna Cronotle's family was not here tonight, and
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Speaker 1: you know the elephant in the room. Obviously the killer
1:20
Speaker 1: still out there, but were they here tonight at this vigil,
1:23
Speaker 1: standing alongside students. That's the question some people are wondering.
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Speaker 1: You are hearing our friends over at kr EM, But
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Speaker 1: the big question, even touching on the vigil, is a
1:36
Speaker 1: bombshell just dropped by Idaho police. Take a listen our
1:41
Speaker 1: friend Brian Inton. We interviewed the prosecutor. He said that
1:44
Speaker 1: one of the victims was not targeted, that the residence
1:47
Speaker 1: was targeted, and then today said something totally different to
1:50
Speaker 1: a different reporter. We've been trying to figure it out,
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Speaker 1: and I just got an email from the police department
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Speaker 1: saying that this has been an internal miscommunication and I
2:00
Speaker 1: want to read this. This is quoted a quote now
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Speaker 1: by the prosecutor. Thank you for the opportunity to speak
2:07
Speaker 1: with you. We want to let you know that there
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Speaker 1: was a miscommunication between detectives and my office. To clarify,
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Speaker 1: investigators do not believe the murders were random, but we
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Speaker 1: cannot unequivocally state the residence or any occupants were specifically targeted.
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Speaker 1: I apologize for any confusion. And then it goes on
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Speaker 1: to say, in big bold letters, correction conflicting information has
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Speaker 1: been released over the past twenty four hours. The prosecutor's
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Speaker 1: office stated the suspects specifically looked at the residence and
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Speaker 1: that one or more of the occupants were undoubtedly targeted.
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Speaker 1: We have spoken with the Prosecutor's office and identified that
2:44
Speaker 1: was a miscommunication. Detectives do not currently know if the
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Speaker 1: residence or any occupants were specifically targeted, but continue to investigate. Okay,
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Speaker 1: this is a big deal and it was not and
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Speaker 1: a quote internal communication. Multiple people within the police force
3:04
Speaker 1: and the DA's office has said these four murders were targeted.
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Speaker 1: One or more of the college students were the target
3:13
Speaker 1: of a killer, a knife killer. That's not a miscommunication.
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Speaker 1: This is a change in forensics strategy. With me an
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Speaker 1: all Star panel before I go to crime reporter with
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Speaker 1: Fox News Digital, Stephanie Pogona's first to Joe Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon and star of a hit series Body
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Speaker 1: Backs with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is a
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Speaker 1: seismic shift because if the attacks were not targeted, that
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Speaker 1: makes the killer much much more a needle in a Haystack. Yes,
3:53
Speaker 1: it does in that population at that university, Nancy, it
3:56
Speaker 1: certainly does, because now you don't know who you're looking for.
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Speaker 1: Can you narrow it down? Possibly? But you know there's
4:02
Speaker 1: been looked and hear me right here. When you put
4:07
Speaker 1: this kind of information out, that turns all eyes, It
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Speaker 1: turns all minds toward a particular type of person that
4:15
Speaker 1: they're looking for, and that even extends out to the
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Speaker 1: individuals that they might be seeking information from. All they're
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Speaker 1: looking for a targeted person who wawn, slow down. Yes, yes,
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Speaker 1: you're right, and back to the Let me go to
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Speaker 1: Stephanie Begonus, Real Quick Crime reporter, Fox News Digital. Stephanie,
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Speaker 1: thanks for being with us because much was made about
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Speaker 1: the vigil. Was the killer there if it's not targeted,
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Speaker 1: He's not there if he's not expected to be the
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Speaker 1: only way that the killer, if it was targeted, would
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Speaker 1: be noticed in his absence, as if he was expected
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Speaker 1: to be there. You know, I went, a husband kills
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Speaker 1: a wife, and he doesn't show up for the funeral,
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Speaker 1: that's obvious. But in an untargeted attack, that killer is
5:05
Speaker 1: not going to show up at a vigil. He's long gone.
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Speaker 1: So I was actually there last night, and not only
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Speaker 1: were like you said, there are hundreds of students there,
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Speaker 1: but there were also what appeared to be undercover police
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Speaker 1: officers in the crowd. But one thing, like you said,
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Speaker 1: is walking back to this targeted statement changes so much
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Speaker 1: about this case. Even from the start police have said
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Speaker 1: and not at all to fearmonger here, but even from
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Speaker 1: the start police have said that there was not a
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Speaker 1: threat to the community because this was a targeted case. Now,
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Speaker 1: of course they later said that people should be careful,
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Speaker 1: and that is absolutely understandable, But this changes so much,
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Speaker 1: and I just want to flag that exactly one week
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Speaker 1: ago from yesterday, on November twenty third, Moscow Police Captain
5:52
Speaker 1: Roger Lanier told the press and the public during a
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Speaker 1: press conference. He said, we've pulled the public very clearly
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Speaker 1: from the beginning that we believe it was a targeted attack.
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Speaker 1: To be honest, you're going to have to trust us
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Speaker 1: on that. So they would you say, why they thought so? Yeah,
6:10
Speaker 1: they're all appointing the finger. Now Stephanie Pagan is saying, oh, yeah,
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Speaker 1: this is an internal communication. I'm calling bs on that
6:17
Speaker 1: because people within the police divorce. Just as you just pointed,
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Speaker 1: out Stephanie and within the DA's office, we're saying, hey,
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Speaker 1: trust us, it's targeted now before you get crazy. I
6:28
Speaker 1: also want to state and agree or disagree. Del Carson
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Speaker 1: is with me, high profile lawyer joining us out of
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville and also former fed with the FBI, former cop
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Speaker 1: as well, and a high crime area Miami Dade. Author
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Speaker 1: of a resciproof yourself. He's at Del Carson Law dot
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Speaker 1: com and deal here's the thing. Targeted can mean a
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Speaker 1: lot of different things. And let me harken back again
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Speaker 1: to Ted Bundy. Yes, he targeted the women in the
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Speaker 1: kay Omega house, the girls, but he didn't know them.
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Speaker 1: When I say he targeted them, they were all of
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Speaker 1: the physical type that he enjoyed killing within a certain age.
7:17
Speaker 1: Of course, he did deviate within a certain age. He
7:20
Speaker 1: killed within his race. Many of his victims all had long,
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Speaker 1: dark hair parted in the middle. If you look back
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Speaker 1: at them, they had a certain look. So did he
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Speaker 1: know them? No, he didn't even know their names. But
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Speaker 1: he targeted them. Get it, Well, that's exactly what has
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Speaker 1: happened here. So my understanding of target it is different.
7:42
Speaker 1: It's like yours. They were targeting because they were actually killed,
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Speaker 1: and these were killings. This was not wanting them to
7:50
Speaker 1: have pain. This was a killing. They went in the
7:55
Speaker 1: person killed these people. So this was not made to
7:58
Speaker 1: make them suffer as Bundy off and did. So you're
8:02
Speaker 1: exactly right. But now they're switching the game on us,
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Speaker 1: and now it's not a targeted attack. It's gonna be random,
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Speaker 1: and so that does change the entire dynamic of who
8:15
Speaker 1: we're looking for. Oh yeah, and that's certainly putting it mildly.
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Speaker 1: Just got morgan before before when we thought it was targeted,
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Speaker 1: Remember you and I were analyzing, how do they know
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Speaker 1: it's targeted? Was one body treated differently? Was one body staged?
8:30
Speaker 1: I mean, we're going through all of the possibilities, right,
8:33
Speaker 1: but not targeted. Oh, it's not like you're going to
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Speaker 1: the boyfriend, the ex boyfriend, the creepy guy online that's
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Speaker 1: following you tagging you, the guy that's looking at your
8:43
Speaker 1: snap map. No, then you go beyond that to the
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Speaker 1: delivery boy. You go beyond that to the guy that
8:51
Speaker 1: sits in the back of your classroom, and then you
8:54
Speaker 1: go you go to the bus driver and the and
8:56
Speaker 1: the cab driver and the uber driver and you go
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Speaker 1: out and out and out, and suddenly you got nowhere
9:03
Speaker 1: to go nowhere with untargeted it could be anybody. It
9:09
Speaker 1: becomes randomized. Hey, Nancy, something I find interesting here in
9:14
Speaker 1: reference to Dale's former colleagues with the fits, and notice
9:18
Speaker 1: the silence is deafening from the FBI at this point.
9:22
Speaker 1: They you don't usually hear a lot from the FBI,
9:25
Speaker 1: but they do. Okay, well, listen, they've they have involved,
9:29
Speaker 1: they have involved, admittedly the Behavioral Sciences Unit say admittedly,
9:35
Speaker 1: like it's some kind of confession they put They put
9:40
Speaker 1: it out there. So I think people are and rightly
9:42
Speaker 1: so they should be asking the question where is the FBI. Well,
9:45
Speaker 1: the FBI many times will consult with the locals. I'm
9:49
Speaker 1: wondering if the locals are listening to the FBI or
9:51
Speaker 1: if the FBI has given them information about what their profile.
9:53
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you know what, you know what, You're muddy
9:57
Speaker 1: in the water. And I don't think right now the
9:59
Speaker 1: police another black eye, but another thing. And Joe Scott,
10:04
Speaker 1: Stephanie Pogonas del Carson, Dr Bethany, you know, I'm getting
10:07
Speaker 1: to you. I think that people are actually mistreating the
10:13
Speaker 1: cops right now they're saying they bungled it. I don't
10:16
Speaker 1: think that's correct. In a multi victim murder scene, the
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Speaker 1: last one I worked on, there were four dead bodies
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Speaker 1: on two floors and it took us over two weeks
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Speaker 1: to gather the evidence. And we knew who did it.
10:41
Speaker 1: We already knew who did it. Another multi victim crime
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Speaker 1: scene I worked on had three homicide victims. And what
10:51
Speaker 1: complicated that is that it was outdoors. Now catch this,
10:56
Speaker 1: wait for it. I went back to the scene well
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Speaker 1: atically every day, but it was well on a week
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Speaker 1: before I went back to the scene and found another
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Speaker 1: shell casing hidden under foliage. Yes, that's what takes so long,
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Speaker 1: and I just happened to find it. I was just
11:14
Speaker 1: kicking around and I found it. I thought. I just
11:19
Speaker 1: got chills remembering that moment. So guys claiming they bungled
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Speaker 1: it is simply not accurate. Crime stories. With Nancy Grace
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Speaker 1: Jill Carson with me, not only high profile lawyer in Jacksonville,
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Speaker 1: but today I have him along with Joe Scott Morgan
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Speaker 1: to talk about the forensics. You've got blood on blood
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Speaker 1: on blood. You gotta get the blood, got to get
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Speaker 1: it to the crime scene uncompromised. Then the scientists get
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Speaker 1: in on it. They're looking through the microscope. They've got
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Speaker 1: to analyze, is that one person's two people? Has it
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Speaker 1: been compromised with dirt or hair or somebody stepped through it.
12:18
Speaker 1: You've got to comb that place for fingerprints. This was
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Speaker 1: a party house for Pete's sake. Now telling them how
12:23
Speaker 1: many fingerprints and you know they're not random made in
12:26
Speaker 1: every other week, that's not happening. So how many fingerprints
12:30
Speaker 1: are in that home covering everything? This is a very
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Speaker 1: complex crime scene, consisting of four dead bodies on two
12:38
Speaker 1: different levels, three levels all together to process del Carson.
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Speaker 1: I mean the fact that they originally said it was targeted,
12:47
Speaker 1: I understand why they said that. And the fact they're
12:50
Speaker 1: now saying, hey, it may not be targeted. I understand
12:53
Speaker 1: why they're saying that. Deal. Well, look, when I taught
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Speaker 1: crime scene investigation for the Bureau, here are the principles.
13:01
Speaker 1: The first is you make sure of the bad guy's
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Speaker 1: not there. Yeah, you'd never toot your own horn, would
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Speaker 1: you go ahead? No, the bad guy's not there. You
13:08
Speaker 1: make sure that anybody who is there still alive, and
13:11
Speaker 1: if not, you try to fix that, and then the
13:14
Speaker 1: next thing you do is you expand the perimeter of
13:18
Speaker 1: the search as large as you can maintain control over it,
13:22
Speaker 1: because that deals with chain a custody later when you're
13:25
Speaker 1: trying to prosecute the Okay, hold on, talk to English,
13:27
Speaker 1: Tommy Man. When you say, for those of you listening,
13:30
Speaker 1: you hear del car sent throwing out a little lingo,
13:33
Speaker 1: we're impressed, expand the perimeter of search. You want to
13:38
Speaker 1: speak playing And yeah, well, you want to control the
13:42
Speaker 1: b biggest area you can to protect any evidence that
13:46
Speaker 1: you may later find in that area. And from my
13:49
Speaker 1: perspective now that this is clearly not a targeted attack.
13:53
Speaker 1: That comes from somebody watching the interior activity of that
13:57
Speaker 1: house from the exterior, and that puts us back on
14:01
Speaker 1: that kill. You said that on day one, you said
14:03
Speaker 1: they need to be looking at that incline kind of
14:07
Speaker 1: like a hill right behind the house. That someone could
14:11
Speaker 1: have been watching the house from that hill and some idget.
14:17
Speaker 1: I don't know who it was yet, but I'll find out.
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Speaker 1: Stephanie Pogonis, crime reporter Fox News Digital was whining that
14:25
Speaker 1: the cops didn't get cast prints of the vehicles before
14:30
Speaker 1: they were taken away. Well, that's idiocy. You get cast
14:34
Speaker 1: prints of treadmarks when you don't know what the car is.
14:40
Speaker 1: They towed the cars, and I believe the cars belonged
14:42
Speaker 1: to the people that lived in the house, the five
14:45
Speaker 1: people living in the house. Five cars were taken away,
14:49
Speaker 1: so they're they've been taken away for processing in a
14:52
Speaker 1: controlled environment, probably with Idaho State Police. So a lot
14:57
Speaker 1: of whining about what the cops are doing, like not
14:59
Speaker 1: take cast marks of tar. You take a cast mark
15:02
Speaker 1: when you don't know the car belongs to, like a
15:05
Speaker 1: getaway car. So, Stephanie, I also want you to clarify
15:09
Speaker 1: something I don't yet that cops are saying necessarily, this
15:13
Speaker 1: is not a targeted attack. I understand them to be saying,
15:18
Speaker 1: we don't know if it's targeted or not. I completely
15:21
Speaker 1: agree what these teems to be saying here is not
15:24
Speaker 1: definitive in one way or another. What they're saying is
15:27
Speaker 1: they can't yet stayed definitively that this is targeted. Instead,
15:32
Speaker 1: they're still working to ascertain the information to be able
15:36
Speaker 1: to definitive police say. So. Now, as for the crime
15:39
Speaker 1: scene and even that incline that we discussed just previously,
15:43
Speaker 1: you know, I just want to flag that I'm here now.
15:45
Speaker 1: I'm here on the ground in Moscow, Idaho, and we
15:48
Speaker 1: have not only had one full day of snow, but
15:51
Speaker 1: we've had several Now. I've been told from the police
15:54
Speaker 1: department that they have already done extensive work, can spend
16:00
Speaker 1: much time at the crime scene, but I do wonder
16:04
Speaker 1: how much the snow complicates things now. As for the vehicles,
16:07
Speaker 1: like you discussed, Yes, they did tow five vehicles away
16:11
Speaker 1: from the scene, and the vehicles are now being placed
16:13
Speaker 1: at a at a city mechanics shop, so they are
16:18
Speaker 1: there in a controlled environment, like you said, so that
16:21
Speaker 1: if they need to go back and examine the cars
16:24
Speaker 1: once again, they can do so. I was told yesterday
16:27
Speaker 1: that the cars were already processed while they were at
16:30
Speaker 1: the crime scene, but now they're being held as part
16:33
Speaker 1: of their ongoing search warrants, so that if they need
16:36
Speaker 1: to revisit those vehicles, they can and very quickly. Joe Scott,
16:40
Speaker 1: I think the reason they are taking the vehicles, and
16:43
Speaker 1: there's really no way to put this delicately. For all
16:46
Speaker 1: I know, the prop came up and took a leak
16:48
Speaker 1: on one of the tires watching the house. He may
16:51
Speaker 1: have touched the car. For all I know, one of
16:54
Speaker 1: the girls may have given the killer a ride. That's
16:57
Speaker 1: why they have the cars. I don't think the cars
16:59
Speaker 1: are connected to the murders, but they're going to be processed.
17:03
Speaker 1: And how does the snow affect the scene on that
17:07
Speaker 1: incline behind the murder house, Joe Scott, Well, obviously the
17:12
Speaker 1: snow is going to obscure anything as far as footprints
17:15
Speaker 1: and all of that is concerned. You know, we know
17:18
Speaker 1: that snow covers up the leaves and the foliage. But
17:20
Speaker 1: the way you said it sounded so much more scientific. Okay,
17:25
Speaker 1: go ahead, obscure. Well, yeah, it's going to cover it
17:28
Speaker 1: up so that they're no longer visible. I hope that
17:30
Speaker 1: it can process it. It's very difficult. Now you can
17:33
Speaker 1: process it. There's a difference now you have. You know,
17:37
Speaker 1: when this thing first happened, Nancy, there was no snow
17:39
Speaker 1: on the ground, So if you have an underlying footprint
17:42
Speaker 1: out there at that time, you would have had to
17:44
Speaker 1: have captured it thin. But now you've got a layer
17:45
Speaker 1: of snow on top of it. Now we can get
17:47
Speaker 1: footprints out of the snow. That's not what's going on here. Now.
17:51
Speaker 1: The snow is obscuring, that's hiding. So if he didn't
17:54
Speaker 1: get it the first time, it's going to be very
17:56
Speaker 1: difficult to get it now because you're screwed. I'll interpret
18:00
Speaker 1: that for you, if you didn't already process that scene,
18:03
Speaker 1: that area of vipers and nest, I think as del
18:06
Speaker 1: Carson may have called it at one point where the
18:09
Speaker 1: person may have been watching them, much as Bundy would
18:12
Speaker 1: watch his victims. I spoke to one of his surviving
18:15
Speaker 1: victims and when she was attacked, Oh, my stars, Jackie,
18:18
Speaker 1: what was what was her name? I loved her so much.
18:21
Speaker 1: She was a dancer, and he was watching her through
18:25
Speaker 1: her window, go through her dance routine, and he came
18:29
Speaker 1: in and beat her senseless. She survived, Oh by the way,
18:34
Speaker 1: he left her permanently death. That ended her Broadway aspirations.
18:40
Speaker 1: But she went on to become a dance instructor for
18:45
Speaker 1: the death Believe it or not. Wasn't she at Godet anyway? Thomas, right,
18:53
Speaker 1: wait a minute, you make me lose my thought. You know,
18:55
Speaker 1: it's very easy to do. My point is back to
18:59
Speaker 1: what del Carson was saying earlier. If this guy had
19:02
Speaker 1: been watching them the way Bundy watched some of his
19:06
Speaker 1: victims through the window. There may have been trace evidence
19:11
Speaker 1: left there, but the snow if they didn't process it
19:14
Speaker 1: before it started to snow, and they're screwed. Jump in Dale.
19:17
Speaker 1: I look, we're not necessarily looking for trese evidence or
19:21
Speaker 1: fiber evidence or microscopic evidence. When people do things like this,
19:26
Speaker 1: they tend to leave things by accident, a bullet falls out,
19:30
Speaker 1: there's some piece of their clothing that's left there, a
19:34
Speaker 1: large piece that you can see, or you go to
19:37
Speaker 1: the scene and you kick up the leaves and you
19:39
Speaker 1: find a bullet casing. That's what we're looking for. It
19:42
Speaker 1: was a knife, man, there's not going to be a
19:44
Speaker 1: bullet casing. But I get you're dressed. I'm talking about
19:47
Speaker 1: when you found one. Oh yeah, that's exactly how that
19:50
Speaker 1: went down. Doctor Bethny Marshall joining me Psychoanalysts to the Stars,
19:55
Speaker 1: joining us Oude of Beverly Hills. You can find a
19:57
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, I got several questions,
20:03
Speaker 1: the first one being what does it tell you about
20:06
Speaker 1: the killer that they may have been just watching the
20:10
Speaker 1: victims through the window, Because you know, I mean Jackie,
20:15
Speaker 1: remember when we looked at the crime scene. You can
20:19
Speaker 1: look straight in some of the windows, especially the sliding
20:21
Speaker 1: myst door, and if it's at night and they're in,
20:24
Speaker 1: they're in the light, walking around, cooking, probably partially undressed,
20:28
Speaker 1: like everybody does. He's probably watching that. So what kind
20:32
Speaker 1: of a person does that? Number one and number two,
20:36
Speaker 1: this may not be targeted thing, it's a big deal. Translation,
20:41
Speaker 1: you better get your children home from that school right now,
20:44
Speaker 1: because if it's not targeted, if it's not the boyfriend,
20:47
Speaker 1: the ex boyfriend, the connected person, that means it's random
20:52
Speaker 1: and your child could be next. But answer, just to
20:54
Speaker 1: place this in context, I was thinking about you remember
20:57
Speaker 1: Richard Ramirez the night stalker. Oh yeah, I was a student.
21:00
Speaker 1: I was in seminary when he was targeting women in
21:04
Speaker 1: the larger Los Angeles area. So I had three roommates disunds.
21:10
Speaker 1: Did he kill everything within his race and he crossed
21:14
Speaker 1: racial bounds and eight bounds from my very young women
21:18
Speaker 1: to the elderly, but it was mostly women, I think
21:20
Speaker 1: one male victim. So my roommates and I we would
21:24
Speaker 1: literally tight rope and twine and everything we could around
21:28
Speaker 1: our windows at night because we were so terrified that
21:32
Speaker 1: the night stalker would come and get us. So I'm
21:34
Speaker 1: thinking about this university campus. And if the police say, hey,
21:39
Speaker 1: it's targeted, they're like, okay, one of the girls had
21:41
Speaker 1: a stalker, so it's not going to be me. I
21:44
Speaker 1: can continue to go to my classes, I can call
21:47
Speaker 1: my parents, I can live my life. But when the
21:49
Speaker 1: police say it's not targeted, oh my god, this was
21:53
Speaker 1: a serial killer. He was looking through the windows, was
21:58
Speaker 1: checking them to see if he was their type, because
22:01
Speaker 1: we know serial killers have pipes, and in this case
22:05
Speaker 1: that the type could have been you know, white Sandy.
22:09
Speaker 1: Pull up from me a picture of Bundy's victims, I'm saying,
22:16
Speaker 1: and study very carefully this um manage of all the victims,
22:23
Speaker 1: and oh yeah, okay, I got it. I wanted to
22:26
Speaker 1: make sure I was talking about the right thing. Yeah,
22:28
Speaker 1: look at that. When I wrote the right said, they're
22:30
Speaker 1: all with the hair, the long straight hair parted in
22:33
Speaker 1: the middle, white females. Go ahead, doctor Bethany. Okay, So,
22:36
Speaker 1: so Bun Bundy had a type, right, what of this
22:41
Speaker 1: is a serial killer whose type is blonde women, blond,
22:45
Speaker 1: curly hair, beautiful, wearing the hip jeans that young people
22:50
Speaker 1: wear these days. I've been looking at all their Instagram photos.
22:53
Speaker 1: Beautiful white teeth, friendly girls who kind of hug each
22:56
Speaker 1: other and sit on each other's lap, sleeping each other's
23:00
Speaker 1: beds because they're bestdees. You know. The type is not
23:03
Speaker 1: just how they look, it's how they maneuver in society.
23:06
Speaker 1: It's how they relate, how they engage. He has formed
23:10
Speaker 1: relationships with these victims in his mind if he's been
23:15
Speaker 1: looking through their windows. So think about the mass hysteria
23:19
Speaker 1: that's taking place on this campus. Every young woman and
23:23
Speaker 1: men because a young man was killed, was going to
23:25
Speaker 1: be thinking, is somebody looking through my window? Am I
23:29
Speaker 1: his type? What's on my Instagram? What is on my
23:32
Speaker 1: social media? Because serial killers don't just look through windows anymore, right,
23:36
Speaker 1: They can look at social media profiles. They can do
23:40
Speaker 1: all kinds of things. So I think in this moving
23:42
Speaker 1: from targeted to not targeted, the police are also saying,
23:47
Speaker 1: don't think it's just these girls or one girl who
23:51
Speaker 1: had a guy who had a strange fascination with her.
23:54
Speaker 1: It could be anyone. So the psychology on this campus,
23:58
Speaker 1: as you said, parents are going to want to be
24:00
Speaker 1: getting their kids home. They're not going to want to
24:02
Speaker 1: be there anymore. Yeah. I second listen to Brad Garrett,
24:06
Speaker 1: former FBI special agent, speaking to our friends at GMA.
24:11
Speaker 1: If there's not an immediate connection, you have to go
24:13
Speaker 1: to sort of a wider circle you would look at,
24:16
Speaker 1: for example, maybe or maybe not, somebody older. I only
24:20
Speaker 1: suggest that because this crime appears to be very focused
24:24
Speaker 1: and the person had a comfort level in the house,
24:27
Speaker 1: and so as a result, do you start looking at
24:29
Speaker 1: sort of relationships that are really aren't tight with these kids?
24:34
Speaker 1: See somebody they met occasionally, somebody that may have come
24:36
Speaker 1: to the house to attend a party. Apparently there was
24:39
Speaker 1: a big party house, and so that makes it more difficult.
24:43
Speaker 1: Less connections makes it more difficult. Many times I solve
24:46
Speaker 1: a crime. He's so right. Let's listen to more of
24:48
Speaker 1: what Brad Garrett says. If it's a if somebody that's
24:52
Speaker 1: done this before, I mean, people who do this kind
24:55
Speaker 1: of stuff get a big thrill out of doing it. Now,
24:58
Speaker 1: we don't know if it's that type of person, but
25:00
Speaker 1: that it could be something like that. The idea that
25:04
Speaker 1: you killed four people just tells me that this was
25:08
Speaker 1: sort of driven by something you intrinsically wanted to do
25:12
Speaker 1: less so than mebe one student mad at another student.
25:16
Speaker 1: You know, here's the dichotomy. Stephanie Pagonas, I see a
25:19
Speaker 1: conflict in rationale. Stephanie Pagoni's crime reporter with Fox News Digital.
25:26
Speaker 1: Hold on, let me see if I can verbalize this correctly. Okay,
25:34
Speaker 1: the fact that this person killed four innocent victims, generally
25:41
Speaker 1: in their sleep or in bed, would suggest it's not
25:46
Speaker 1: his first offense. You don't go from zero to one
25:51
Speaker 1: twenty mph just like that. On the other hand, we're
25:56
Speaker 1: not getting a hit. And codis or aphis DNA repository
26:02
Speaker 1: fingerprint repository, which if there had been a conviction in
26:07
Speaker 1: the last fifteen twenty years, he would be in that
26:11
Speaker 1: data bank. See what I mean. That is an inconsistency
26:15
Speaker 1: that must be analyzed and scrutinized it very carefully. One
26:20
Speaker 1: methodology would dictate this is not his first crime. But
26:25
Speaker 1: that's why Ball, that's why BYCAP is important. That's the
26:30
Speaker 1: Bureau's violent apprehension program that takes every one of these
26:35
Speaker 1: similar cases, puts him into a private database with a
26:39
Speaker 1: Bureau about knife, gun, weapon location, all those things, to
26:46
Speaker 1: connect all these dots in a way that allows us
26:49
Speaker 1: to know that some guy in southern California did this
26:53
Speaker 1: two years ago, or Stephanie Pagonus. It could be simply
26:56
Speaker 1: a man. That may not be an inconsistency it Maybe
27:00
Speaker 1: it's very possible that the d and fingerprints have not
27:03
Speaker 1: all been processed yet, so we don't know if there's
27:06
Speaker 1: a match in a PC. Yes, that's correct. In fact,
27:09
Speaker 1: I just spoke to police yesterday who told me they
27:12
Speaker 1: had not received all of their crime lab results yet.
27:15
Speaker 1: They had received some and they had begun examining those results,
27:19
Speaker 1: but they were still receiving them. And I asked specifically
27:23
Speaker 1: about DNA and the presence of any foreign DNA being
27:27
Speaker 1: that which belonged to, you know, someone who wasn't the
27:32
Speaker 1: four victims or their two roommates, and police have not responded.
27:36
Speaker 1: They also have not responded to a question of whether
27:39
Speaker 1: any of these surviving roommates might have had another guest
27:42
Speaker 1: who was over at the time. So there are still
27:45
Speaker 1: questions out there regarding the DNA that was recovered from
27:49
Speaker 1: the crime scene, and whether police don't have the answer,
27:51
Speaker 1: or whether they're choosing not to provide the answer is
27:55
Speaker 1: a different question in and of itself. I don't think
27:57
Speaker 1: they processed it yet. I don't mean haven't assessed the home.
28:01
Speaker 1: I think they have done that and they're closing that down,
28:03
Speaker 1: but I don't think it's all been analyzed. Here's another
28:07
Speaker 1: thing that we're just learning, and anybody jump in because
28:10
Speaker 1: I have some ideas about what this means forensically, and
28:14
Speaker 1: a lot of people are talking about the vigil today
28:16
Speaker 1: and I appreciate that, but unless I can get evidence
28:19
Speaker 1: out of it, I'd rather forge forward on the probitive
28:23
Speaker 1: value of any minute detail that could help catch the killer.
28:28
Speaker 1: We are learning that Kelly Gonsalvos and Madison Mogan were
28:33
Speaker 1: in the same bed on the top floor, Level three,
28:37
Speaker 1: Kelly and Maddie second floor. Ethan Chapin and Xana Crnodle
28:43
Speaker 1: they were together on the second floor, probably in the
28:46
Speaker 1: same bed. The survivors Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk were
28:50
Speaker 1: both sleeping on the first floor. That gives me a
28:53
Speaker 1: lot of information that tells me why the survivors didn't
28:57
Speaker 1: hear anything. The four victims were sleeping and just two beds.
29:00
Speaker 1: They were all together in two different rooms on upper levels.
29:04
Speaker 1: No wonder they didn't hear anything, but just got Morgan.
29:08
Speaker 1: The fact that you've got two victims in one bed,
29:10
Speaker 1: we think two victims in another bed. That tells me,
29:13
Speaker 1: it does It tells you that they're not spread out
29:16
Speaker 1: over a large area. Okay, like you know, it wasn't
29:19
Speaker 1: sneaking door to door like an a harmon. No, no,
29:22
Speaker 1: And if you can if if the perpetrator was targeting anybody,
29:26
Speaker 1: hate to use that word now, but if if they
29:28
Speaker 1: walk into the door, it kind of is. It's It's
29:33
Speaker 1: a matter of convenience at that point in time, isn't it.
29:35
Speaker 1: Because you've got the you got the Vico. Don't get
29:37
Speaker 1: something though, Joe Scott. You go in to one room,
29:42
Speaker 1: you find your victim, you killed two of them. Why
29:46
Speaker 1: do you go on up to the next floor. Why
29:51
Speaker 1: do you do that? It seems risky to me. I
29:54
Speaker 1: was just actually talking about this with my wife over
29:57
Speaker 1: coffee this morning, because you know, you've got Bundy did it.
30:00
Speaker 1: You're talking about the two victims downstairs that were not touched.
30:04
Speaker 1: Did did this individual? Did this individual think that they
30:08
Speaker 1: were pushing the boundaries at that point in time? Decided
30:10
Speaker 1: to get out because I think whoever did this had
30:12
Speaker 1: familiarity with the with the location, and so why would
30:15
Speaker 1: you go up a staircase and eradicate to it heard
30:19
Speaker 1: a dog barking? Joy? Why are we assuming he went
30:23
Speaker 1: up the staircase. Perhaps he was hiding at the upper
30:27
Speaker 1: floor of the house. Good point his creepy, creepy killing fantasy.
30:34
Speaker 1: I am assuming that it went from one floor to
30:37
Speaker 1: the next, regardless of where he started. And that is
30:40
Speaker 1: why do you kill two people in bed and then go, hey,
30:45
Speaker 1: there's some more people to kill. I'll run down there.
30:48
Speaker 1: That's what Bundy did. We would have a lot of
30:51
Speaker 1: jamiliarity killing people. Bundy had never been in the ky
30:55
Speaker 1: Omega house before. Well, he neither lot of girls in there.
31:01
Speaker 1: When you look from the back of the property in
31:03
Speaker 1: the building, you only see two floors, and so if
31:07
Speaker 1: you're out there watching for a period of time exactly
31:10
Speaker 1: may not have realized there was that bottom floor. Hey,
31:13
Speaker 1: Haley in the studio, can you show that three levels
31:17
Speaker 1: what del Carson is talking about. If you're on the
31:21
Speaker 1: sliding glass door level, that's your point of entry, you
31:23
Speaker 1: don't even see I'm calling it in the basement, but
31:27
Speaker 1: you've got a ground entrance to it. You don't even
31:29
Speaker 1: see that. So Carson could be Right Time Stories with
31:45
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys. Now, another theory has reared its ugly head,
31:54
Speaker 1: the possibility of an end cell, an involuntary celibate. Listen
32:01
Speaker 1: to Jonathan Gilliam. He also is a former FBI agent,
32:07
Speaker 1: and he's being interviewed on Fox. I'm pretty sure that
32:11
Speaker 1: this was a young male somebody who could get into
32:14
Speaker 1: the house and get out in that neighborhood without being seen.
32:17
Speaker 1: I don't think it was two people, because the more
32:20
Speaker 1: people you have going into that house than were likely
32:23
Speaker 1: it is that they were going to be seen. So
32:25
Speaker 1: I think it's one male, young enough to have been
32:27
Speaker 1: in that neighborhood. I think the potential is that they
32:31
Speaker 1: entered from the second floor, because the first floor was
32:33
Speaker 1: never disturbed, and there's also a wooded area behind that house.
32:38
Speaker 1: But here's an important thing that I think people should realize.
32:42
Speaker 1: This is probably not the first time that this person
32:45
Speaker 1: did this. Yeah, he's right, or did something similar some
32:48
Speaker 1: type of crime to go from again, jump in Joe Scott. Okay,
32:56
Speaker 1: we know that two of the victims had been at
32:57
Speaker 1: a fraternity party. All right, A check this out. The
33:02
Speaker 1: distance from that particular fraternity house to the location of
33:06
Speaker 1: the crimes on foot walking on a sidewalk is half
33:09
Speaker 1: a mile. Did you know that from the location of
33:12
Speaker 1: the backside of the fraternity house to the location is
33:17
Speaker 1: about two hundred yards. It's not that far away. And
33:22
Speaker 1: with fraternity parties. The way it works that you know,
33:26
Speaker 1: I'm a university professor. The way it works now is
33:29
Speaker 1: that you have to have a guest list of everybody
33:32
Speaker 1: that's going to come in and at least at our university,
33:35
Speaker 1: and you can only get any animal house right if not, Yeah,
33:39
Speaker 1: but it's a brave new world now, Nancy, they controlled
33:42
Speaker 1: the door at these points, um, and so you would
33:45
Speaker 1: have a guest list. I'd like to know if the
33:47
Speaker 1: party that they were having that night was a scheduled party,
33:52
Speaker 1: that it was approved by IFC or whoever it is,
33:55
Speaker 1: or if it was just a random gathering of people,
33:57
Speaker 1: because this is significant, particularly when you're talking about and
34:01
Speaker 1: we all know there on Greek Road, which we pointed
34:04
Speaker 1: out on day one, I think I hear Stephanie pagun
34:06
Speaker 1: Is jumping in. Did you hear what he said that
34:09
Speaker 1: if you cut through the woods, not stay on the
34:12
Speaker 1: sidewalk on the road, it's less in a football field
34:15
Speaker 1: length from the back of the fraternity houses to the
34:19
Speaker 1: murder house. It absolutely is. And I would even venture
34:23
Speaker 1: to say, I'm sorry for cutting you off there, Joe Scott,
34:25
Speaker 1: we don't care. I would even venture to say it's
34:28
Speaker 1: less than two hundred yards. I am here, and many students,
34:32
Speaker 1: in fact, even through the snow, will bross through. They
34:35
Speaker 1: won't take the sidewalks, they will cross right through the
34:38
Speaker 1: grass to go from one side to the other. Not
34:40
Speaker 1: only are there fraternity houses up there, but there's also
34:43
Speaker 1: at least one sorority house as well. And I actually
34:46
Speaker 1: walked from the crime scene too, Sigma Kai the fraternity house,
34:51
Speaker 1: and on my walk earlier this week, I could see
34:55
Speaker 1: only one surveillance camera on the street. But there's been
34:58
Speaker 1: a question of whether or not the camera was installed
35:01
Speaker 1: before this crime occurred or after, because we have heard
35:05
Speaker 1: that many have since been taking more precautions, such as
35:08
Speaker 1: installing surveillance devices. Hey, guys, speaking of the whole was
35:13
Speaker 1: that Bethany go ahead well with the cell? Yeah, Hey, Bethany,
35:17
Speaker 1: take a listen to Jim Murray inside Edition. He's fucking
35:20
Speaker 1: right to your point. There has been a rash of
35:22
Speaker 1: killing spree by in cells. Elliott Roger killed six and
35:26
Speaker 1: wounded fourteen at the University of California Santa Barbara campus
35:30
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, and pretty Idaho victims were also in
35:34
Speaker 1: sororities and posted rambunctious videos of life in their party house.
35:38
Speaker 1: If you look at the online presence of in cells
35:42
Speaker 1: in this country, they are very, very negative and hate
35:47
Speaker 1: filled toward beautiful women. In particular. I spoke with Idaho
35:51
Speaker 1: State Police Communications Director Aaron Snell. Doesn't in cell fit
35:55
Speaker 1: into the potential profile of this killer. We are not
35:59
Speaker 1: spick leading at this point in time. When it comes
36:02
Speaker 1: available and when it's appropriate, we will release that information. Okay,
36:05
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, do you're saying, Well, the idea of the
36:08
Speaker 1: in cell is that there's involuntary celibacy, right, that he
36:12
Speaker 1: just can't get a girl, and because of that he
36:14
Speaker 1: hates girls. He's jealous of anybody can get a girl.
36:17
Speaker 1: But in cells, the way they kill is sort of unique,
36:21
Speaker 1: and that they do that of fish and a barrel
36:23
Speaker 1: kind of shooting like we see in mass murders. They
36:26
Speaker 1: want to terrorize and take out as many people as possible.
36:29
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, these were beautiful young women
36:32
Speaker 1: and possibly one boyfriend of one of the girls. On
36:36
Speaker 1: the other hand, it was stealth. It was in the dark,
36:39
Speaker 1: no one else could see it, So there wasn't this
36:42
Speaker 1: a glory mass shooting where the killer triumphs over everybody else,
36:46
Speaker 1: which I think is more the pattern of the in
36:48
Speaker 1: cell one of the ideas about the fraternity. You know,
36:52
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about BTK not to lead us down
36:55
Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of other se or the dog catcher. Yeah, yeah,
37:01
Speaker 1: this guy, which is really common with serial killers, was
37:04
Speaker 1: hiding him plain sight. He was married, had children, and
37:08
Speaker 1: had a family vehicle. Deacon at the local church, you know,
37:12
Speaker 1: he was sort of like the local baton. Before you
37:14
Speaker 1: say another word, I can't believe you're bringing up Dennis
37:17
Speaker 1: Writer buying torture kill because I woke up in the
37:21
Speaker 1: middle of the night thinking about Dennis Writer buying torture
37:23
Speaker 1: kill BTK. Why did I wake up thinking about him
37:26
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. What is connecting my
37:30
Speaker 1: mind with BTK to this? He would see his victims,
37:36
Speaker 1: but he didn't really know them. Go ahead, what else
37:41
Speaker 1: in your mind? Well, for one thing, BTK staged he
37:47
Speaker 1: had a passing familiarity with each one of his victims.
37:51
Speaker 1: He would kill other people in the home that got
37:55
Speaker 1: in his way in addition to his target. He watched
38:00
Speaker 1: his victims. Remember that was his route as a dogcaster.
38:03
Speaker 1: Or he would say them over and over and over.
38:06
Speaker 1: Is right? All that's just percolating in my head right now.
38:09
Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts, see my thoughts to
38:11
Speaker 1: piggyback on what you're saying. You know, the idea of
38:14
Speaker 1: an in cell or a younger person is a very
38:17
Speaker 1: different pattern from BTK, where he was older, he was
38:21
Speaker 1: integrated into the community. He was wearing what some researchers
38:25
Speaker 1: call the mask of sanity act being normal even when
38:28
Speaker 1: he's not. I call it the indisha of reliability. He
38:32
Speaker 1: seems like a normal, reliable person. Oh yes, like especially
38:36
Speaker 1: being the church deacon. Right, So I what if I
38:40
Speaker 1: were the police, you know, I would try to put
38:43
Speaker 1: out on a plea to the community for people who
38:46
Speaker 1: have family members, men in particular, who may have been
38:50
Speaker 1: absent or missing that night. Maybe a father who mysteriously
38:55
Speaker 1: leaves the house at midnight returns at five in the morning.
38:58
Speaker 1: Also thinking about five with a pharmacy tech right under
39:01
Speaker 1: everybody's nose, you know somebody, it had to cross somebody's
39:06
Speaker 1: mind that this guy was out there wandering around quote
39:10
Speaker 1: looking for fish the day of the double murders of
39:13
Speaker 1: Libby and Abbey. So we go from the possibility and
39:17
Speaker 1: in sell to the awkward next door neighbor. Take a
39:22
Speaker 1: listen to Jeremy Reagan, the law student who lives next door,
39:27
Speaker 1: talking to our friends at Court TV. I'm naturally an
39:29
Speaker 1: awkward person, just my mannerisms, the way I talk. A
39:34
Speaker 1: lot of things have been online about Oh, when he
39:36
Speaker 1: was talking, he went from present tense to pass ten
39:38
Speaker 1: and one of his sentences, partly because everyone corrects themselves
39:43
Speaker 1: when they're talking, and so just my natural person, I'm
39:47
Speaker 1: a little bit socially awkward. So I might smile at
39:50
Speaker 1: points that I shouldn't. I might make weird hand movements
39:52
Speaker 1: when I shouldn't, stuff like that, and so people have
39:55
Speaker 1: sort of keyed into that and said, oh, he's a weirdo,
39:57
Speaker 1: he must be this killer. And so it's just stuff
40:00
Speaker 1: like that, and so plus I think it's the amount
40:03
Speaker 1: of interviews I've done because I have a problem saying no,
40:05
Speaker 1: because if it's not going to hurt me physically or financially,
40:08
Speaker 1: it might as well help someone. Okay, Yeah, it's not him.
40:11
Speaker 1: Does anybody agree with me? Hey, you don't see the
40:14
Speaker 1: kill are very often, according to lam Line or doing
40:17
Speaker 1: interview after interview after interview. No, listen to more of
40:22
Speaker 1: Reagan speaking the awkward next door neighbor. I was home,
40:25
Speaker 1: I was asleep. I went to bed in around eleven
40:27
Speaker 1: thirty ish that night, and so I didn't see or
40:31
Speaker 1: hear anything. I didn't know any of them. I had
40:34
Speaker 1: seen them just walking around what I would take my
40:36
Speaker 1: dog out, so I would recognize them, but I didn't
40:39
Speaker 1: actually know their names because I just don't stop and
40:42
Speaker 1: introduce myself to people that. As I had mentioned in
40:44
Speaker 1: one of the other interviews, I usually carry a weapon
40:46
Speaker 1: on me now, whereas I didn't use too when I
40:48
Speaker 1: moved up to Moscow, just because it was such a
40:50
Speaker 1: safe community. Well, that's a lot of information that nobody asked.
40:55
Speaker 1: Yet it's not him. What about the theory of he's
41:00
Speaker 1: just been sorry, he's not being kg or evasive, He's
41:03
Speaker 1: throwing in so many details. What about the idea of
41:06
Speaker 1: a person that lives nearby that could have been watching them,
41:09
Speaker 1: possibly with binoculars or spying on them. Back to your
41:12
Speaker 1: Dinnish writer comparison. Well, I remember reading some very interesting
41:17
Speaker 1: research a number of years ago about the demographics of
41:21
Speaker 1: men who kill university students, and they've said, I think,
41:25
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, the men were usually in their
41:27
Speaker 1: late twenties, early thirty single, low wage jobs. These are
41:31
Speaker 1: not university students who are going to a fraternity party.
41:34
Speaker 1: These are creepers, right, And that they would watch the
41:38
Speaker 1: victims for a long long time before they actually killed them. So,
41:43
Speaker 1: you know, like I said earlier, it points to a
41:46
Speaker 1: perpetrator who is already developing a relationship in his mind
41:50
Speaker 1: and his mind which is imported in his mind. Jephanie
41:54
Speaker 1: Pagun is joining us from the there in Moscow, Crime
41:58
Speaker 1: and Poorer Fox News Digital. They're wrapping up the processing
42:02
Speaker 1: of the home. People are all over the cops backs
42:05
Speaker 1: because we don't have a suspect yet. I'm not surprised
42:08
Speaker 1: we don't have a suspect. I'll be shocked if we
42:11
Speaker 1: did have a suspect. This is a painstaking ordeal processing
42:17
Speaker 1: all of these hundreds and hundreds of exhibits and blood samples.
42:21
Speaker 1: What's next? Stephanie pegonis so even when the crime scene
42:26
Speaker 1: does get lifted, and we don't have a time frame
42:29
Speaker 1: as to when that will be other than then. Other
42:32
Speaker 1: than that that is a discussion right now, but the
42:36
Speaker 1: crime will carry on. All this means when the crime
42:40
Speaker 1: scene is lifted is frankly, that they have everything they
42:43
Speaker 1: think they need from that area and they will continue investigating.
42:47
Speaker 1: Like you said, Nancy, this is an incredibly complicated investigation
42:51
Speaker 1: because not only were there half a dozen people at
42:54
Speaker 1: least in the home at the time, but these survivors
42:57
Speaker 1: then called people to the home. More people came, which
43:01
Speaker 1: creates more forensic evidence that they have to go through.
43:05
Speaker 1: Another thing that I just want to add in terms
43:07
Speaker 1: of what we were just discussing, I think sometimes the
43:10
Speaker 1: reader or the listener might view this home as being
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Speaker 1: in an area where there aren't many other homes nearby,
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Speaker 1: and I just want to note that this is an
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Speaker 1: area where there are several buildings or residences nearby. They
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Speaker 1: might not be high rises, and they're not high rises,
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Speaker 1: but there are multi multi family apartments very close, easily
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Speaker 1: within walking distance and within frankly only a few feet
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Speaker 1: in some cases. Well, you know, Stephanie begonis that is
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Speaker 1: very important. It certainly widens the suspect pool possibilities. Guys
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Speaker 1: A Tip Line two zero eight eight eight three seven
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Speaker 1: zero five four. We pray for justice. Goodbye fl