Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Assassination - Ep. 267 - James Herbert Martin, Wanda Martin, & John Martin Thorne

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JFK Assassination - Ep. 267 - James Herbert Martin, Wanda Martin, & John Martin Thorne · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

0:04
This is a six James Johnson, Round the Crazy in che wee go and
0:41
here we go again. What's up everybody? Welcome to the show. This
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is up there, number two hundred and sixty seven, James Herbert Martin,
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Wanda Martin, and John Martin Thorn. We're gonna get into all three of
0:57
these folks today, but before we do, let me introduce myself. My
1:00
name is Rob Clark, otherwise known as the Triple B, Big Bad Bob,
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and along with me today is my buddy co host, Joey Scars,
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mister joe BURRELLID morning everyone, How are you? How are you mister Rob?
1:18
Oh, I'm fantastic. It's a little early. Brain's not firing all
1:22
together yet. Need coffee insert coffee here, yes, sir, caffeine here,
1:27
and but I'll be okay here in a second. Well, if you
1:33
can't tell, I am in a different setting, and that is because this
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is too early for my girlfriend. So I was sent to the basement to
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do this, and I had to redo everything and relegated to the basement.
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As you should be. She's not thrilled with you. Well, you know,
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grown people are normally awake by ten am. But that's Okay, true,
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I completely agree. Joe's girlfriend is nineteen years old, folks, not
2:07
true, older than me. Verifiable. So we got an interesting show for
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you here today, and without further ado, let's jump right into it,
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Joe, and we're going to learn a little bit about the Martins because we
2:27
think that there's something nefarious possibly going on here with the Martin family and Marina's
2:38
lawyer. And you will find out all kinds of juicy stuff and saucy details
2:46
and probably some things you've never heard before today. So stick with us.
2:52
It's going to be a road, but I promise it will be well worth
2:58
their journey. So Joe, kickus off. My friend, Well, this
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lovely assistant hotel manager, a credit card salesman and managed many trades, mister
3:17
James Herbert Martin. Here it's a great picture escorting Marina and to testify in
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the warrant commission. This would be early February nineteen sixty four. And he
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looks like a serious guy, doesn't he. Rop Well, you know,
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I've always said on my show that a picture is like one tenth of a
3:44
second captured in time, So looks can be deceiving. I mean, he
3:49
could actually be very happy, and I'm sure he was this morning after heading
3:54
into the Warren Commission hearings. And look who's on behind him to his left,
4:02
Yes, the porn King himself, John Martin Thorne. Yes, also
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Marina's lawyer during the Warren Commission. Yeah. And we'll get into that,
4:14
folks, because it kind of plays into some things. But before we do,
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we're going to talk a little bit about James Herper Martin because he's a
4:26
very mysterious person, very and we'll show you why. We're first going to
4:31
go into his work history. We're going to go into how he convinced the
4:39
Secret Service to let the Oswalt family stay at the six Flags in where he
4:46
assistant managed. And we're going to talk about his wife, who has some
4:54
very mysterious questions surrounding her, to say the least. And uh and also
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mister John Martin Thorne a little bit and uh it will be one hell of
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arrived. So I think work history is going to be the first, uh
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slide. This is what we before we get there. Just to piggyback on
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what you said there. You know, I had always thought that, you
5:24
know, the Secret Service had orchestrated and made the decision to take Marina to
5:30
the Six Flags in on their own volition, but in actuality it was James
5:36
Herbert Martin who orchestrated this through some contacts in the Fort Worthst. Sheriff's department.
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But we'll get there. I just wanted to throw that out there real
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quick because there was always a misconception to me. I thought that, you
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know, they made that decision on their own. Well, but yeah,
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that's not the case. A lot, yeah, a lot of weird things
6:01
happened here, but as well I get into But this is a graph of
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what we were able to find about James Herbert Martin's work history, and we
6:14
did a lot of digging. There's a lot of documents on him, but
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he was born in Saint Louis, Missouri, in nineteen twenty six, and
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his first work history we have, well, he was in the army,
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or we have his draft registration card in June nineteen forty five, he apparently
6:45
gets married. There's two different dates on ancestry actually which says he got married,
6:50
and I think it's nineteen forty two and nineteen forty eight. But anyways,
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nineteen fifty six where it really gets interesting. He's transferred from the Saint
7:03
Louis Hilton, the Statler Hilton Hotel to Dallas, and there's not a ton
7:12
about him in almost three years. There's an interesting gap in his work history,
7:24
and it is from about mid nineteen fifty nine to about mid nineteen sixty
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one, and we were unable to find any documents that placed him in the
7:39
United States actually through sixty two. Joe and I sixty one sixty two.
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I'm sorry, yes I heard the graphic wrong, but he in the second
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little graphic here we have in July fifty nine, he leaves the Statler Hilton
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Hotel and then becomes a salesman for the cart Launch credit card company, which
8:00
is part of the Hilton chain. Right, so he didn't really leave the
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Hilton conglomerate. Uh, he basically just took another job. Instead of,
8:11
you know, managing a hotel, he took a job as a credit card
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salesman. Now, in researching the cart Blanche credit card, I came to
8:22
realize that this was one of the very first ever credit cards issued in the
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world. And you know, of course, the Hill the Hilton chain was
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at that time even then worldwide. You know, they had hotels and all
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the major cities all over the world, which would definitely you know, interest
8:48
someone like the CIA for instance, as far as you know, bugging,
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bugging phones, bugging rooms, tracking what people purchased. Because this Carte Blanche
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credit card could be used, originally it was it could only be used at
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any Hilton hotel in the world to pay for lodging and food and whatever stores
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were inside the hotel. It eventually became accepted at other places as well,
9:20
other restaurants, things like that stores. But as a salesman for the Carte
9:28
Blanche credit card company, it is quite possible. But we don't know one
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hundred percent for sure that he was working abroad at this time, So Joe
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please continue. Sure, So yeah, that makes sense right because he's traveling
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abroad and there's no you know, FBI documents or even CEI hate documents on
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him in that time that we could find. If you could find them,
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please send them to the Long Government podcast. As emailed that I was about
10:11
saying. I paused because I was like, did I get it wrong again
10:16
again? But I did not, So that's not count mister Rock. But
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so to continue. He worked for the Jack Murphrey Insurance Company, dates unknown
10:30
there. We couldn't find a document that stated his dates that he worked there.
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We believe this was We believe this was what is commonly known now as
10:39
a side hustle, if you will, upon returning to the Dallas area in
10:46
nineteen sixty two. Yes, and one of one of the earliest documents we
10:54
have says that he was working there as a December nineteen sixty three. But
11:03
to take a will step back to sixty two, he was the manager of
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the Gay Nineties Club in Dallas, which was a private bottle club, bottle
11:13
service club work. You know, they sold alcohol. And yeah, there's
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a lot of interesting things about the Gay Nineties Club that we're going to show
11:24
you. We've looked into that I've mentioned. And gay doesn't just mean homosexual
11:31
here, folks. And also will that be no, it's actually so.
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The gay nineties was a term that was created in the eighteen nineties when it
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started to be more acceptable to you know, drink in public, no,
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to do the other thing with all that could be of the same, you
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know, Oh, trying to make my previous statement, then, Joe,
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it does have to do with gayness. I don't know. Yes, yes,
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that's it. I looked into like where that term came from, and
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you know, they're bars today. It's just a very overt title for you
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know, a club, you know, but like something. It was a
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very shady one. And he happened to work there for one month according to
12:20
documents we have, in May of nineteen sixty two, and then on May
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twenty eighth, he was promoted to resident manager of the six Flags in So
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this says, gentlem me just interject here real quick. When we're talking dates
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here, folks, these are very not reliable dates. These are coming third
12:50
third hand. Uh, the sources are dubious and it's hearsay, and there's
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a lot of country addictions in these dates. So when Joe's mentioning dates,
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they are not set in stone. Is just what some documents say, but
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majority, well some what some documents say. There are contradictions and there are
13:18
confidential informants that who are not named where some of this information comes from.
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But we'll get there. Yeah, so of course, you you know,
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you can't be one hundred percent sure of the motives of the confidential informant and
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uh, yeah, but these dates do come from documents that that we thought
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were the most relevant, I should say, maybe not the majority. But
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like I said, there about tens of thousands of documents but very few on
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his work history. And we're going to get into that next here. Real
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quick, Joe, before we move on, can you back up to that
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last slide real quick? Sure? All right, folks, you see that
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big red rectangle there with a question mark from nineteen fifty nine to nineteen sixty
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two. Think about where the Oswalds were, Where Lee Harvey Oswald was from
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nineteen fifty nine to nineteen sixty two. Go ahead, Joe, uh romania,
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No, no, another horror one? All right? Oh, actually,
14:35
technically the uss R am I right, I'm sorry, I was answering
14:48
our our audience. I didn't you didn't hear a word you said, Joe?
14:52
I said the USSR. Yes, he was in Soviet Russia because he
15:01
defected. That's correct, Joe. Everybody, Winter Winter chicken dinner for Joe.
15:09
Why? I don't know. It was a rhetorical question, not meant
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to be answered. Okay, Please pray continue, sir. Okay. So
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this is one of those documents from a confidential format T one married to one
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El Martin that's going to come into play telephone number Shady Side Drive. That's
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ironic. That was in in Dallas. But that's not where the Martin stayed.
15:48
They stayed at one or the Oswald family stayed at one one six one
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one for our street in Dallas. But like I said, the subject was
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born. They're talking about James Trupert Martin in nineteen twenty six and his father,
16:06
Herbert J. Martin, So they switched it around there. Family wise,
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not shady wise. Served in the United States Navy to nineteen forty three
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to nineteen forty five, obviously during World War Two. So but the important
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part here is that nineteen sixty nine subject was elevated to the position of credit
16:30
manager at the hotel and of course they mean the Hilton Hotel Stack. Again,
16:38
this is a document that contains inaccurate information because in the next sentence,
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Joe the subject left the hotel's on employees sometime in nineteen fifty nine and went
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to work for six Flags over Texas, Yes, which of course didn't happen
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until at least nineteen sixty two or sixty three. So again, these these
17:00
documents that we're finding are full of contradictory and inaccurate information and again, this
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is from a confidential informant t one who we don't know who it was,
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So okay, go ahead, sorry, and also employ Jack Murphrey Company presently.
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Was this a late November document, Rob, I have no clue.
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I believe it is. Don't quote us on it, kills, but this
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is one of the earlier ones. I can guarantee that this is another FBI
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document from mister William Mitchell, and he was the assistant manager and co assistant
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manager with James Sharper Martin, who is currently the business manager for Missus Marine
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Oswald's. Are you still called missus if your husband's murdered? Sure? And
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why not it was technically not divorced true, I'm just curious. Mitchell advised
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that he and Martin both worked while Blant assistant manager, and after Martin left
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the Statler Hilton Hotel, he managed the Gay Nineties nightclub and during this period
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became well acquainted with you guessed at Jack Ruby of the Carousel nightclub. Mister
18:27
Mitchell advised that after learning of Martin's association with Marina Oswalt and his Martins in
18:36
quotation known association with Jack Ruby, he felt that this should be brought to
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the attention of the FBI. And yeah, I probably agree with mister Mitchell.
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There so important thing to take away from this document, folks. Oh
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sorry, is James Herbert Martin new Jack Ruby? Well, well, so
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please continue, Joe well acquainted and uh, you know, I don't really
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know who mister Mitchell is, but uh oh Bill Mitchell, mm hmmm,
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uh, but he obviously thought it was important enough to bring into the attention
19:22
to the FBI. And think about it. How many times you nerve life
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have you gone to the FBI to get information? Not very often, not
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once for me at least, actually never, actually never either James Herber Martin
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marked at the Gay and I Used club in Dallas, like you mentioned this
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ironically again, another one of those coincidences is owned by or was in the
19:45
name of Clay Martin. No relationship to James Rger Martin or Clay Shaw,
19:52
that's what they're trying I think they're trying to say. But I think mister
19:56
Shaw would have probable frequented the Bottle Club if when, if when he was
20:07
in DALYs And uh, I don't know if that's really just beautiful and owned
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by an oil man out of New York and Mike Abraham, who I tried
20:17
to look into and I found absolutely nothing on him. So if anyone wants
20:21
to try that rabbit hole, let us know. It's good luck. Yeah,
20:26
good luck, send us an email. But you know there there there
20:30
were a few gay nineties clubs and uh scattered about, yes, and and
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one very conveniently located in Shreveport, Louisiana, right in uh, kind of
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right in the middle of Dallas, of Dallas and New Orleans. And I've
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talked about that crickets and I think before here, so we're not going to
20:52
get into that again. So James Herbert Martin also worked for the Jack Murphy
20:59
insurance company dates unknown. Jack Murphy. I looked into him a little bit.
21:04
In addition to owning an insurance company, was the lawyer and trustee of
21:11
the mob Ut mayor of Saint Louis That would be a J. Cervantes at
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the time. And that makes sense because that's James Herbert Martin's hometown. Trustee
21:21
is also kind of important because that means he was managing all his money and
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James Herbert Martin, whatever he was, was connected in some way. You
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need to start sitting in your alarm a little bit earlier, Hi, Caroline.
21:47
So interesting that this Jack Murphy who he worked for, James Sherbert Martin
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in addition to the insurance company and a limousine company, maybe two transport casts
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from the carousel to the six Flags or another hotel or something like that,
22:14
and was eventually investigated and kind of outed for having mob connections. And this
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is who James Sherbert Martin worked for. So James Sherbert Martin was connected definitely
22:36
ties with Jack Ruby, ties to the forward Sheriff's department, ties to what
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else do we have here, Joe, Okay, sorry, I thought we're
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gonna talk. Yes, this is another document we found about Jim Martin.
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That was his nickname resident of the six Flags in or resident manager of the
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sixth floor six Flags in and was there on last June fifteenth, nineteen sixty
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three. Had previously been with the saler Hilton blah blah blah blah. Interesting
23:18
thing about this is I should have highlighted it. Martin's father worked for Bell
23:22
Telephone as a constructor engineer in Saint Louis. So this is this is the
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general manager of the six Flags in it you know, giving a statement on
23:41
James Truber Martin. And I'm not really quite sure what to make of the
23:47
make of it. Was there on last? Is that first or last?
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Like we started June fifteenth, which would make sense with our timeline, he
23:56
ended the gay nineties and sometime in May. I don't know, what do
24:03
you think wrong? As I said before, these dates are all over the
24:11
place on these documents, it's hard to tell which ones to believe and which
24:15
one is not to believe. The only thing I can say about it is,
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you know, you just have to take them all into consideration and see
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where they see where they lead you. And yeah, I mean it's interesting
24:34
that Martin's father worked for Bell Telephone in Saint Louis, But again, after
24:42
I talk with Larry, I don't think it really has any bearing at all
24:45
in situation we're gonna be talking about here in a second. Yes. So,
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one of the most fascinating documents we found was a document a DPD memo
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from a detective to Ganaway and Rebel about James Herbert Martin. This was on
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This memo is dated December second, nineteen sixty three. And the interesting thing
25:21
here is the obvious marking on the bottom of the page, and that is
25:27
a straight line installed to the White House Communications Washington twenty five DC. Now,
25:38
this is a lot to unpack here, because we actually have a copy
25:42
of this exact same document from December second, nineteen sixty three without this notation
25:48
on the bottom. Either that or it was redacted, It's hard to tell
25:55
which. And over the course of talking to Larry, because you know,
26:03
we know nothing about White House communications and how all this works, right,
26:08
but excuse me, I believe this uh DA seven eight eight seven six would
26:18
have been the phone number, yes, for this line installed DA standing for
26:23
Dallas, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever, And when you think,
26:30
at least when I when I first heard about White House communications, I
26:37
was thinking, okay, this is a direct line to the White House.
26:38
But that's not necessarily what it means. There's actually a lot of White House
26:48
communication buildings, not only in DC but throughout the country, and they're numbered,
26:56
some as high as ninety six. I've seen building ninety six. So
27:00
if you look at this versus Washington, DC, here at the bottom,
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you'll see the number twenty five right after Washington. This is Washington twenty five
27:12
DC. So we think that possibly this is going to Building twenty five.
27:21
I in the course of talking to Larry, he sent us a blog that
27:25
was written by a White House, former White House communications officer who was active
27:32
in nineteen sixty three. And it's a very interesting blog, and we'll link
27:37
it up over at locals for really nerdy folks who want to check it out.
27:41
But there's all kinds of interesting stuff about how White House communications worked back
27:47
then, and the blog that he sent us was kind of focusing on how
27:52
they would install communications at lbj's ranch so he would have direct lines of commun
28:00
munication all over the place and all this stuff. But so this doesn't necessarily
28:06
mean that this line was going directly to the President Johnson at the White House.
28:08
Okay, it was likely going to Building twenty five. Now and where
28:15
that was and who was man there, I don't know. But again,
28:19
when you're thinking about the possibility that the CIA would have somebody inside some of
28:27
these White House communications buildings kind of working working under cover, you know,
28:33
like as a you know, think think how the CIA, US embassies and
28:38
things like that is cover for intelligence gathering purposes. So again, all I
28:47
know is that this was very unusual at the time to do this. I
28:53
sent an email to the guy who runs the blog asking him about this document.
28:59
I have not heard an answer back from him yet, just to see
29:03
if he knows anything about it, or to see how common it was to
29:07
install lines like this in private citizens' homes. Yes, So if he ever
29:15
answers me, I'll let you know. But you know, it's all very
29:23
mysterious because this is not something that the FBI would have done. It's not
29:29
something that the Secret Service would have done. It would have to be done
29:33
by the homeowner or with the homeowner's knowledge, of course. And I believe
29:41
Joe Larry was telling us this is not the type of phone line that rings.
29:47
Yes, so Joe go into a little bit more about that. Sure.
29:52
So Rob was referring to Larry Hancock, and we did have almost three
29:57
hour conversation with him about this document and many other topics. But one of
30:03
the interesting things is he used to work for a phone company and he had
30:10
a lot of knowledge about this line. So the Martins had that line just
30:15
installed on December third, nineteen sixty three, to the White House Communications twenty
30:21
five in Washington, d C. So just just to put the timeline in
30:25
perspective, you have Oswalt shop I Ruby. On the twenty fourth, you
30:30
have the Oswalt family moving to the six Flags in on the night of the
30:37
twenty fourth. You have in the meantime you have James Herbert Martin inviting the
30:44
Martin family to Thanksgiving dinner, and then a couple of days later, on
30:49
the twenty ninth, they officially move in. And that's when you know,
30:53
we start to see some documents of who's this guy she's moving in with.
31:00
The document were referring to was nineteen sixty two and the straight line was installed
31:04
in nineteen sixty three, so that would have been four days after the Oswald
31:11
family moved into the Marchin home. So Joe, let was verify something here
31:18
real quick. Sure, no true Flags is bringing up. Might it be
31:22
a DPD intelligence line. No, this is a DPD intelligence document. It's
31:29
a report from a detective to his higher ups. Lieutenant and what Captain,
31:37
Yes, this is a federal circuit. Yeah. DPD could not do this.
31:44
They just market no need to. If they wanted to talk to the
31:49
FBI, if they wanted to talk to somebody at the White House, they
31:52
wouldn't need to install a direct line to do this, Yes, sir,
31:57
So we learned from our conversation that this was a very unique line. This
32:04
was not your standard line, not a dial up line, but a pickup
32:07
line on a federal lease line circuit. The caller would give the code,
32:12
which I believe was the was written on that document, to the White House
32:17
switchboard, and then it would be forwarded to We suspected only two possible parties,
32:27
and that is the LBJ party, and that is the RFK party you
32:34
know, and I mean party, I mean AIDS and you know their circle.
32:37
This line could only have been installed by a Belt Telephone at the time,
32:43
because they were the only company in the area. We learned. So,
32:46
and if this line is installed in the Martin residence, okay, it's
32:55
got to be done by some party that is interested in keeping tabs on what
33:07
Martin is doing and what Marina is doing at the Martins, because it's very
33:15
hard once without any foreknowledge of once Marina goes there. You know, this
33:22
is a house with a wife and kids, it's very hard to get somebody
33:27
in there to bug the house, bug the phones, things like this.
33:36
So what we're positing here is that somebody in the Martin residence was reporting to
33:46
some entity at the other end of this direct line to White House Communications,
33:53
whoever it may be, if it was a Johnson party, if it was
33:57
a part of the DOJ and Bobby Kennedy, or if it was to a
34:05
just a specific general uh you know, White House Communications office where a possible
34:12
CIA guy was working at undercover. It's you know, we don't know,
34:19
but you know, it wasn't going to the FBI. Uh And it wasn't
34:25
going to the Secret Service. And these are basically the two overt parties who
34:34
would have been interested in what Marina was doing, you know, directly after
34:43
the assassination. Yes, Rob and h and mister Hancock told us a lot
34:52
about how LBJ was always reaching out to different parties. He reached out to
34:59
park In Hospital Hospital to check on Oswalt's status. He was always not afraid
35:07
of making direct calls to anyone. Uh So, But RFK, I think,
35:15
you know, the community kind of thinks that he was so despondent he
35:24
he couldn't really he was so upset, he couldn't really be active and be
35:30
doing things during this time. But as we learned, he was very active
35:36
during this time. To even uh try to contact the Russians through back channels.
35:45
And I think the poor you know, I don't see the benefit or
35:54
the logic in a Dallas Police detective writing on a report to his superiors that
36:06
on a James Herbert Martin Marina document that the DPD had a direct line to
36:15
the White House installed in their headquarters. That makes no sense whatsoever. It's
36:22
more than likely referring to the Martin residence, which the report is about.
36:30
That makes more sense than you know, a detective notating to his superiors who
36:38
would have likely already known if they had a direct line to the White House
36:42
installed at headquarters, it wouldn't have been done from the Martin residence for the
36:47
DPD to the White House. So just uh, just poo pooing you there,
36:54
a little bit, no true, no true place. But I like
37:07
the I like the contrariingness. Keep it coming because it makes us explain what
37:12
we're what we may not be conveying here so eloquently. Yes, would you
37:22
like, We're of course not done with mister James Herbert Martin. Would you
37:27
like to move on to mister John Martin. Thorn quickly, sir, absolutely,
37:36
John Martin Thorn the oh I'm sorry, go ahead, yes. And
37:46
these are two pictures, one of him in his younger days on the left
37:51
and one of them on his right. This is of course the cover of
37:54
the Times, the Time magazine article in for fourteen sixty four. You know,
38:02
weakish after she testified to the warrant committee and looks like a serious guys.
38:09
Most lawyers are to be fair, but he has some interesting interesting stories.
38:23
This is a document that we shared at Lancer that shows that this is
38:31
an FBI document. And John Martin Thorne applied to be a special agent in
38:39
nineteen fifty one and was recommended unfavorably. So and what was the reason,
38:47
Rob, Well, he was a let's just say he loved to shoot porn
39:07
and sell porn out of cheap, cheap motels. And even in this FBI
39:12
report here a paid confidential informat advised on March first, nineteen fifty eight,
39:22
that two males and two females appeared at a tourist court and had taken about
39:25
three reels of film from a car and into the tourist cabin. PCI believe
39:32
that these persons were showing the films and possibly making other films. Now,
39:38
I don't think they were shooting any Hollywood blockbusters inside of a cheap CD motel,
39:44
Joe, I mean, do you. I would say they are probably
39:49
shooting some stag films. And we believe there was a little bit of a
39:55
network going on here with this kind of Shenan Biggins. Yes, definitely,
40:04
And I am trying. I have messaged his son trying to get more information
40:12
on John Martin Thorn. By the way, yes, yes, he has
40:17
like a twenty year old girlfriend. It's I respect it a lot, mister
40:22
Thorn. If you listen, don't don't come after me. I'm not singing
40:27
that, Tim, Don't bait me. Yeah. So all right, so
40:36
we're going to go back to mister Martin's testimony, and of course, Chief
40:44
Justice Earl Warren this testimony was recorded, actually, but he instructed it was
40:52
to be deleted from the record and tear up the tape. And of course
40:58
he excused himself as you'll see in the Work Commission documents, and let mister
41:04
Allen Dulles conduct the hearing. Give mister Thorne my regards please, Yeah,
41:14
the former head of CIA take over questioning of mister Martin, and uh go
41:21
ahead to Yeah, who might be that? And so one of the questions
41:27
I was asked was, how did you come in contact with mister John Martin
41:34
Thorne. Oh, just I'm James Server Martin, just a passing before Dunes.
41:42
Did you say anything about it to the Secret Service agent, mister goopause
41:47
I don't know how to say that, So that doesn't cap John had handled
41:52
some movie work and would probably know something in the area in which we were
41:57
talking. Of course, they were trying to make as much money as they
42:01
could from book deals. Well, you missed the very first line here,
42:06
Joe, I had known him from an association at the end. It has
42:12
to do with handling movie work. So one of the cheap CD motels that
42:20
Thorn was shooting is poorn In was probably six Flags over Texas. Yes,
42:28
and sure, thank you. That's why I have you here from mister Martin's
42:31
character that he probably was the main star in several of these movies, as
42:39
we will come to find out. Yes, and one of the intro as
42:47
we start to get into missus James Herber Martin's wife, Wanda al Hobbs Martin,
42:55
I want to just post this little snippet from the War Commission. Do
43:00
you discuss this proposal with your wife before you made it? That is Marina
43:05
and her two kids moving into a house with three kids already, mister Martin.
43:09
No, And I don't know if that's the nineteen sixty three thing where
43:14
you don't have to ask your wife anything, but I think a lot of
43:17
people will get in trouble to do that. Yeah. I mean if you
43:22
move in not just any woman, but the widow of the assassin of the
43:30
president and her kids into your house with your wife and kids, and you
43:35
don't discuss it with your wife beforehand. You just say this is what's happening,
43:38
and if you don't like it, there's the door. Yeah, probably
43:45
wouldn't go over too well at my house. I'm definitely going to go out
43:50
my house if I have a friend sleeping on a couch in the basement,
43:52
I get an earful like well he was, he was very uh forward.
44:01
If we can use that word with Marina at the Martin residence. Yes,
44:07
and so you want to talk a little bit about DC now and what happened
44:16
there. Well, before we get to DC, let me just mention a
44:21
document that you don't have here in the PowerPoint but we will have it up
44:25
with locals later. And let me read just a little bit of this just
44:30
so we get a little glimpse into mister Martin's character. And this is an
44:36
FBI document, okay, FBI, which means they were tailing and surveilling the
44:45
Martins and Marina. On January tenth, nineteen sixty four, Special Agent Davis
44:52
and I accompanied mister Martin and Missus Oswald. And this is January tenth,
44:57
Folks sixty four. Special Agent Davis and I accompanied mister Martin and Missus Oswald
45:05
on a dinner engagement at La Tunisian restaurant. Missus Martin was not asked to
45:10
accompany them, and it was quite apparent that she was very unhappy about the
45:15
whole affair. During dinner, they were very friendly and drank a whole bottle
45:21
of wine between the two of them. Mister Martin drank very little of it,
45:24
but Missus Oswald was feeling a little high. Davis and I positioned ourselves
45:31
at the table at a table approximately ten feet away from the one they were
45:36
occupying, and because of the distance, could not overhear any of the conversation.
45:43
After dinner, mister Martin took missus Oswald for a ride toward Denton,
45:47
Texas. There were several times during the ride when Missus Oswald's head was not
45:53
visible from the follow up car. Yeah, Joe, what are you doing
46:01
down there? Oh? Just h And it is assumed these these poor naive
46:13
agents. It is assumed she probably slid down in the seat to rest.
46:17
Okay, sure she did. Uh. The ride took approximately two hours,
46:28
during which time both of them were talking quite frequently. When we returned to
46:35
the house and Missus Martin appeared to be very upset and pissed off and wanted
46:39
to know why they were gone so long, mister Martin stated, we had
46:45
gone for a ride. I bet he did go for a ride on Marina's
46:52
Yeah. Uh. Missus Martin is a very tolerant person, but I feel
46:57
her tolerance was getting less as time and on. She obviously resented the fact
47:01
that mister Martin was devoting most of his time to Missus Oswald and her children.
47:07
I don't believe there were ever any advances towards Missus Oswald by mister Martin.
47:13
That's a lie. H in the house, but they did spend a
47:16
great deal of time together outside the house. Well, they didn't have someone
47:21
in the house, right, They didn't know Marina's statements. He tried to
47:25
kiss her at every point, especially on New Year's Eve. Yes, he
47:30
kissed miss uh Marina kissed Marina in front of his wife, Miss Marina.
47:37
Yes. Somebody say, who put the record on? And they did.
47:43
They put the records on, and they were dancing. It's New Year's Eve
47:46
and he's all grabbing all over Marina's booty and dancing with her. And then
47:51
come midnight, Hey, Wanda, watch this come here Marina right in front
47:59
of his wife. Do you think it was the New Year's like pack or
48:00
do you think there was some Oh no, I think he threw his tongue
48:05
right down her throat. But it's actually very interesting because Marina actually, per
48:13
her statements, felt uncomfortable and wanted to move out of the Martin home.
48:19
She felt she was a burden. Guess who convinced her to stay, Wanda
48:24
Martin, that's right, So again, just let me finish the document up
48:30
real quick, Jo. Sure, thank you, John. To the best
48:38
of my knowledge, there were no nights that missus Martin did not sleep at
48:45
the house. In other words, she wasn't so pissed off that she left
48:47
and left them two there at the house by themselves, because I'm pretty sure
48:52
what was going to happen. Then she could have been absent on an evening
48:55
I was off, and I would have no way of knowing. Mister Martin
48:59
did not make any statements regarding his relationship to missus Oswald in front of me
49:02
or anyone else on my presence or that could be overheard. So yeah,
49:10
this uh, this kind of stuff. There's so many documents about Martin and
49:20
Marina, uh, you know, and Marina and other people as well,
49:28
which in a second, where'd you Yes, yes, I would say down
49:38
the street, yeah, down into the left, Yes, down to the
49:43
left, because you would be well passenger, Yeah, on the right side.
49:45
Yeah yeah, down down into the left. So you have half of
49:50
it, correct, that's yeah, it's uh. And and they there is
49:59
no record of them aside from this document hooking up aside from DC. I
50:08
mean, this document obviously is what you know the agent has noticed. But
50:16
the main problem happened in DC. And we're going to get into that.
50:22
Yes, here comes the juicy stuff, folks. You thought that was good.
50:28
Just wait, all right, get me sack here because when when she
50:36
went to DC to give her Warren Commission testimony. I think this stuff actually
50:40
went down on my birthday, on February seventh, the night of February seventh,
50:45
and I think her first commission appearance was February eighth, the morning after.
50:52
I could be run on those dates. I'm not one hundred percent,
50:54
but it's pretty fairly around there. And yeah, for some reason, the
51:01
Secret Service decided to leave the protective detail in DC. I guess. I
51:09
guess she had she had done her due diligence at the Warren Commission hearings and
51:15
they were done, and I believe they still had another night to stay in
51:21
DC. And what happened, Joe, You're muted guests who moved into their
51:31
adjoining rooms. Sorry, after the Secret Service left at the Willard, John
51:42
Martin Thorn, John mars Thorn moved into the adjoining room, and James Herbert
51:46
Martin moved into her room. Yes, And there's even a story of Marina
51:52
saying that she woke up from a nap and there was a bottle of vodka
51:59
and a car empty cup placed next to her side table, and she caught
52:06
John Martin Thorne taking a picture of her as she was asleep to maybe promote
52:12
the she's a drunk passed out thing if it needed to come to that.
52:16
And I think no True Flags pointed out a good point that he wanted to
52:24
be involved in intelligence, right, so he would have been willing to do
52:29
these type of things. Also, more likely just pure blackmail and the possibility
52:37
to sell that picture, uh to a news agency would probably have copped him
52:42
a lot of money. So you know, here's the wife of the here's
52:45
the Russian wife of the assassin of the president getting railed out, you know,
52:53
yeah, party on the night of her warrning commissioned testimony. Like,
52:58
yeah, I don't. I would almost guarantee that, or I would strongly
53:05
suspect that there was a camera in that room, absolutely and that there were
53:10
films made. If if John Martin Thorn Junior ever answers us, the question
53:17
will be asked, Yes, you're gonna have to send a lot more superstickers
53:22
to convince them to sell that tape to us, but it will be worth
53:24
it. That's a Joe. Uh. So let us mhm move on to
53:37
Miss Swanda, shall we. Well, before we get there, Joe,
53:39
let me just insert another document here. Sure now, when the FBI found
53:49
out about this, this whole thing with between Martin and Marina and Thorn and
53:53
all this stuff, they blew their They blew their lid, you know,
54:00
wondering how this could happen, you know, what the hell is going on.
54:06
So on February twenty fourth, shortly after all this came to light,
54:15
they issued at memorandum to Dallas requesting an immediate twenty four hour physical surveillance should
54:27
be instituted on Marina Oswald to determined number one, each person contacted by her
54:32
and their full identity number two to be able to furnish information on everything else
54:37
she does when she leaves her place of residence. The surveillance is to be
54:40
conducted as a discreete physical surveillance Number two. With regard to the interview of
54:46
Marina today concerning the Nixon matter, the Director and mister Rankinfield that the Nixon
54:52
affair does not sound right, as such activity on the part of Oswald is
54:55
not in keeping with his character. This should be thoroughly explored to determine what
55:00
he did while he was locked in the bathroom. If he attempted to break
55:05
down the door, and what action he took after he was released, that
55:07
is, did he beat up Marina, etc. So they also said,
55:19
is Rankin's intention to immediately rese a poena Marina after receipt of the results of
55:22
our interviews with regard to the need for additional personnel, consideration should be given
55:28
concerning such request and agents will be flown in to complete this surveillance. However,
55:34
it is contemplated that the physical surveillance of Marina will be discontinued after she
55:38
is recalled before the commission, but not until then. And have another memorandum
55:45
from Gordon Shanklin two days later issuing the schedule for the discreete physical surveillance of
55:54
Marina. And they were working twelve hour shifts to twelve pm, and I've
56:01
got the full multi page list here and they were signing one, two,
56:08
three, four, five, six, up to six agents on a twelve
56:14
hour shift and then from seven pm to seven am overnight it was a lot.
56:21
There was only four agents. And you know one of the agents on
56:27
here that kind of pops out is book out, which is interesting. And
56:35
this surveillance goes on and on into well into March until she's recalled but they
56:43
are clocking in her twenty four hour surveillance physical surveillance undercover, which means that
56:50
they don't want her to see her surveillance. Yes, and I think that
56:54
brings up a great point. Right, So you just mentioned how much effort
57:00
was given it to surveilling Marina post warrant commission. What do you think with
57:08
surveillance would have been pre warrant commission? Right? Her testimony, her indicting
57:16
lee of the Walker incident, it was very crucial. And Larry and I
57:24
have talked about the issue of control and would these ABC's let Marina just move
57:32
into some random person's home. Was he the greatest opportunist ever? Or was
57:40
there something else going on here? And that's where we've been trying to figure
57:46
out for a long time. And I think we have a pretty good idea
57:51
of what has happened. But there's a lot, you know, a lot
57:54
of questions here. And for those of you who don't think Marina was such
57:59
a hooter, well here's another document for you. And this is an FBI
58:06
document dated February twenty fifth, sixty four, so we're still in the same
58:12
month of February sixty four. Agent malead just called and said. Rankin noted
58:17
today that when he was talking to Thorn that the past weekend, Thorn mentioned
58:22
to him that Thorn had gone to Oklahoma over the past weekend. Mister Rankin
58:28
recalled that Peter Gregory, who at one time was taking Russian lessons from Marina
58:31
Oswald and at the same time supposedly teaching her American and believe Gregory is at
58:37
the University of Oklahoma, also observed at this time there were several occasions where
58:43
Peter Gregory would take Marina Oswald out at night, and he was speculating as
58:47
to whether or not Martin might have come to the University of Oklahoma to talk
58:52
to Peter Gregory to establish that Marina might have been promiscuous with Gregory. Wondering
58:59
whether we can discreetly find out where Martin went this past weekend. Would you
59:04
have any idea on this? You might check airlines and give us a call
59:07
on the dates. So he was jealous. They are checking into things,
59:15
you know, and apparently Marina was handing it out to everybody all over town
59:22
with an American accent or even a Russian accent. Yes, go ahead,
59:29
Joe, Okay, Well should that lead us into miss Wanda al Hobbs Martin.
59:38
Yes. So the reason, folks, is Joe works on pulling this
59:44
up. The reason why we might think that James Herbert Martin could have possibly
59:53
had some CIA ties is because of his wife. So let's get into her.
1:00:01
Sure. So, Wanda ol this is a DPD minimum dated twelve seven
1:00:07
and sixty three from a detective in the Criminal Service Bureau to Ganaway, and
1:00:15
I guess Ravel and some other people were cced or through whatever that means at
1:00:22
that time. I won't take there was email. So she is the former
1:00:28
Wanda L. Hobbs, daughter of mister and missus Otho Hobbes who live in
1:00:31
Missouri. Remember James Martins. It's from Missouri, so that makes a lot
1:00:37
of sense. I hey, Jay, do you know what CC means?
1:00:42
Yeah? What? Uh? Including on the email? No incorrect, sir,
1:00:51
you're still a little young to remember back in the days when CC means
1:00:55
carbon copy. So back when they used to type the shit oup on typewriters,
1:01:01
right, they used paper that had carbon copies, so you wouldn't have
1:01:07
to type something, you know, five times, you could have copies.
1:01:10
So CC originally means giving you know, doing it up on a carbon copy
1:01:15
paper on the typewriter so that somebody could get a copy, like say,
1:01:20
hey, give a copy to CC Joe Borelli. You would get a carbon
1:01:24
copy of the original typewritten report. Wow, I did not know that.
1:01:31
There's your history lesson for the day, sir. You learned something new every
1:01:36
day the I'm In podcast. So yes, this is pretty much the last
1:01:47
time you will hear Wanda L. Hobbs because about we paid note attention to
1:01:55
her whatsoever. Really until about eight months into are research into the Martins and
1:02:05
we found this file. This was released in May twenty seventh of twenty three.
1:02:10
It was a less redacted file. And I sorry for my terrible circling.
1:02:17
That's a horrible circle. Yeah, I know. I don't hear folks
1:02:23
how they intentionally misspell missus. So if you're looking for missus James Herbert Martin,
1:02:30
it might not pop up because they spelled it mries. Yeah. And
1:02:37
if you search Martin, you're going to come up with a lot of Martin
1:02:40
Luther King, Martin Luther King too. Which but the thing that's most important
1:02:46
here is that it is a CIA document and it is part of the JFK
1:02:52
records, so yes, because it has been posited by some poopooters that,
1:03:00
well, how do we know that this is the same James H. Martin?
1:03:04
How do we know that you know, missus James H. Martin is
1:03:07
is this guy's wife? Well again, it's the CIA document is in the
1:03:14
JFK record series. Could it be a mistake maybe? Could it be a
1:03:19
mistake five years in a row? I doubt it, So we'll get there,
1:03:29
I promise. These are the first two pages of the document and S
1:03:37
thirteen means Office of Personnel and mister Simpitch helped us with that, and why
1:03:46
don't you take the note rob okay, folks. The first the first part
1:03:52
of this file, it is addressed to Lee, uh not Lee Oswald.
1:03:59
This is a c I internal document, personal correspondence, handwritten note to Lee,
1:04:04
who we believe is Lee Weygrin, who was part of the Soviet Russia
1:04:09
division. And this is a very hard document to read. But it starts
1:04:15
off, sorry about that. It starts definitely copied over many times. Yeah,
1:04:21
it starts off not your typical wife, okay. And then it goes
1:04:28
on and you know, it's kind of hard to read here and there but
1:04:35
from the or described possibly from the station by himself or completely deserved from the
1:04:45
station by herself or himself as a wire intercept. That word is underlined and
1:04:53
there is no mistaking and what it says, yes, and it says I
1:04:57
think you could build the case either way, following the case from the everyday
1:05:03
type something wife looks like. But anyway, let me stop this banner so
1:05:15
you can see the very bottom of this document and you'll see the letter here
1:05:23
at the bottom, which we thought, hold on, it looks like an
1:05:28
R. Right, hold on, what what are you doing? I took
1:05:34
that? Okay, I thought I took that out. I did not.
1:05:42
Here we go, Here we go again, Okay, I'll put the ticker
1:05:50
back. So this could be a very slanted B or possible LeAnn R.
1:06:01
Because this guy's B looks like an R, and it would make sense if
1:06:08
it was. This guy is he's the acting director of Personnel and this is
1:06:12
the Office of Personnel file. This is Benedetto D Flie or B. D
1:06:18
Felice or just B. That looks like an R guy or this could be
1:06:24
Ray Roca. We don't know one hundred percent who this is, but it
1:06:29
makes sense it would be this guy B. D. Felice. But we
1:06:31
are like, again, we're not one hundred percent sure. But it is
1:06:35
an internal recommendation letter about a wife, not your typical wife, having to
1:06:44
do with wire intercepts. Keep that in mind, all right, Joe.
1:06:51
The next page of the document, All right, so here we go.
1:06:58
This is to the Chief of the Finance Division concerning a contract Approving Officer,
1:07:04
Chief of Base Berlin, subject engagement of spouse of redacted. I'm guessing that's
1:07:14
James Herbert Martin as redacted number one term and project charge. The subject individual
1:07:23
has been engaged for use under Project Die Circuit. Now, there is not
1:07:30
a damn thing on the Internet that we could find about Project Die Circuit.
1:07:38
Okay, there just isn't. It was supposed by mister Simpech that the DI
1:07:45
prefix in this acronym could be possibly, according to one document, affixed as
1:07:55
a country prefix for Czechoslovakia. But again, uh, you know, you
1:08:03
know what, Rob, what I just came up with something? Just now?
1:08:11
What's that? Do you remember when Larry was describing the Federal circuit put
1:08:17
in the least line circuit. Yeah, maybe some connection there. I don't
1:08:25
think it was an international opera or I mean it's from it's to the chief
1:08:30
of Base Berlin, where he was carving hockey. It could loosely have to
1:08:34
do with a phone line, a circuituitous phone line. Uh, that's being
1:08:41
that being wire intercepted. Sure. Yeah, but again, a country prefix
1:08:45
has nothing to do with a project acronym or you know, think QK and
1:08:53
shunt and chant or m K ultra. You know it's they use these things.
1:09:00
It doesn't necessarily mean that it has to do with Czechoslovakia or you know
1:09:05
whatever. It says. The effective date of this oral contract is June sixty
1:09:15
four and shall continue thereafter until the termining of the redacted's tour of duty at
1:09:21
BOP, which is Base of Operations. Wow, what to make of this?
1:09:35
Yeah? So do you have the rest of this document, Joe?
1:09:40
Or this is this is the last page? So I thought this was a
1:09:44
whole page. No, this is the last page. There's actually document though,
1:09:54
I mean I could double check. There could be something at the bottom,
1:09:57
but I don't think it was relevant. If it was, I'm one
1:10:02
hundred percent sure I would have included it was just whoever wrote this this Lola?
1:10:11
It had been it had been redacted in previous releases, and we couldn't
1:10:15
find anything about her and her position at the CIA either. I can't remember
1:10:21
her last name, but it was Lola something that started with an F,
1:10:25
I believe. Yes. So, yeah, that is a document which would
1:10:42
indicate that the spouse of mister James Herbert Martin was under oral contract by the
1:10:51
CIA in June of sixty four. And of course Marina hadn't moved out by
1:10:58
sixty four, so by Juno sixty four of the marchin home. So you
1:11:05
have to wonder if that's back forward dated or maybe she knew the Russian language
1:11:15
and helped surveil after I'm not sure. It's a fascinating document, and that's
1:11:25
what fascinated mister Larry Hancock, one of the most respected researchers in the community.
1:11:35
Yeah, so, if true, you know, this means that James
1:11:39
Herbert Martin's wife, Wanda was working for the CIA at least at least in
1:11:45
sixty four. But it talks of extending an oral contract, so it's possible
1:11:50
that they had been previous or she had been a previous employee as well,
1:11:56
and says they termed nineteen sixty seven here on the one I pulled, I
1:12:00
went back on, which is interesting because you know, they talk about her
1:12:05
in these recommendations very highly, like they know of her work. You know,
1:12:10
this is not your typical wife type of thing, you know. So
1:12:17
you know, was she working for the CIA prior to sixty four? Well,
1:12:25
quite possible that she was. Yes, And this is the nineteen forty
1:12:32
federal census record from ancestry dot com and it's states Ony L. Hobbs at
1:12:39
thirteen born about nineteen twenty seven. Keep that date in mind, please Missouri
1:12:46
blah blah blah. We I have all her father's documents as well that that
1:12:55
lineup. So this is one of the interesting documents we found. And this
1:13:00
is miss Wanda el Martin female birthdate, departure date fifty six from Japan to
1:13:13
who I she took an Air Force flight. Must have been free. This
1:13:27
is another one where she went into New Orleans from Rob don't make me do
1:13:32
it. You can do it, Maquetia. No, you can't do it.
1:13:47
I know that's pronounced it, makeisha, makeisha yes. And I have
1:13:56
no idea how to say that either. Okay, cool, Mike quid,
1:14:00
Yeah, that doesn't go And arrived in New Orleans in June of sixty two
1:14:06
of all places. So you know, we're not sure this is one hundred
1:14:12
percent sure this is the Wanda El Martin. Here's another list from nineteen fifty
1:14:16
nine of a five person Martin party including James with different middle name initials,
1:14:24
traveling from Japan to California. It's really hard to tell, but there is
1:14:35
definitely a trend of Martin parties traveling around and that will kind of segue us
1:14:43
into our next thing. I'll stop sharing for now, and the next one
1:14:48
is intriguing folks. Joe, let's hop on the ss man's damn? Shall
1:14:57
we want to hop on? M woo, Let's go for a ride.
1:15:02
What do you want to talk about the taro sauce? First? Uh?
1:15:06
Yeah, yeah, you popped that up real quick. So it's not out
1:15:14
of the realm of possibility that the Martins had worked previously as a wire intercept
1:15:20
team, because we have evidence of other husband and wife wire intercept teams working
1:15:28
for the CIA. This includes mister and missus Boris terosof as one of the
1:15:35
CIA's husband and wife teams. The Terrasofs had the job of translating and transcribing
1:15:43
conversations in the Russian language going in and out of the Soviet embassy by telephone
1:15:48
in Mexico City. Okay, they were experts in voice identification, using such
1:15:55
aids as newspaper clippings and other miscellaneous information about different individu uals to help determine
1:16:00
geographic origins about persons whose conversations were being tapped. The Tarasovs were directly involved
1:16:08
in the translation and transcription of the Oswald conversations, although the specifics have become
1:16:14
dim in mister Tterosof's memory. So again, folks, it's not out of
1:16:17
the remal possibility for the CIA to use husband and wife teams on wire intercepts.
1:16:25
Okay, just wanted to establish that, yep. And again in talking
1:16:31
with Larry, he made a very good point that it would be interesting to
1:16:38
see if we could possibly find somewhere in Wanda l. Hobbs Wanda Martin's past
1:16:49
that she knew Russian, or she took classes in Russian, or she majored
1:16:57
in foreign languages in college. There's something something like that that'd be great.
1:17:01
A language class, yes, yeah, or maybe her family had had Russian,
1:17:10
had a Russian background. Maybe they were Russian immigrants. We don't know,
1:17:14
but it would be great to find something like that. But again,
1:17:18
you know, when you have twenty different things pointing in a general direction,
1:17:28
you know, it's not like we just have one thing that we can and
1:17:30
we're making the speculation that, oh, they're a husband and wife wire intercept
1:17:34
team. This has to be her, you know, based on one thing.
1:17:40
That's not the case. We're basing this, as we're laying this all
1:17:44
out for you, folks, at least twenty or thirty different different points of
1:17:46
contention here pointing to the fact that there's something going on here with the Martins
1:17:54
and the CIA. So pray continue, Joe, sure, I will get
1:17:59
to the Masdamn. Woo whoop. All right, So let's hop on the
1:18:06
SS mads dam. When I first found this, I could not freaking believe
1:18:12
it, Okay, I was. I was ecstatic. Jove. I don't
1:18:15
know if you remember that day or not. Yeah, we had on the
1:18:17
phone. Dude, you're not gonna believe this, okay. Just in the
1:18:23
course of looking through now the ESSs mads Damn, folks, is the boat
1:18:29
the Oswaltz came back from Amsterdam to New York on. Okay, and look
1:18:36
at the passenger list. You'll see all these crazy ass uh European names.
1:18:44
But then one pops out at you right down here towards the bottom. It's
1:18:47
highlighted for you Martin, j H. Martin, party of five. That's
1:18:56
four plus one. Yes, okay. And and also point out to the
1:19:02
crossed outrate. What the discount he seemed to have gotten. Maybe because his
1:19:11
daughter was like under twelve or something counted as adults. She was three or
1:19:17
four at the time. Yeah, so that would line up with their family.
1:19:24
But continue, yes, so it's insane that Okay, take into consideration
1:19:34
what we know that the CIA had offered missus James Herbert Martin a job to
1:19:45
project die Circuit Berlin Station wire intercept. We don't know where James Herbert Martin
1:19:54
or his family was from the years nineteen fifty nine to sixty two, remember
1:19:59
that, m hm. Okay, So just speculate for with me here for
1:20:04
a second. If they're in Europe somewhere working as a wire intercept team or
1:20:11
just Wanda and Jim's doing his carte blanche sales, you know, throughout Europe,
1:20:16
whatever, whatever, and all of a sudden the Oswalds are coming home,
1:20:25
okay, and they get activated to hop on his boat and follow him
1:20:31
home. Keep an eye on him, see if you can find out anything.
1:20:34
Type of deal. Very very interesting, folks. Yeah, you don't
1:20:43
know, is na Herbert Martin, of course not. But again things are
1:20:48
pointing in directions you can't deny. Yes, multiple Martin parties traveling and very
1:20:59
similar ways to how Lee r Lee Harvey Oswald. Uh. And also I
1:21:11
wanted to bring up the point that to you know, obviously the FBI and
1:21:16
Hoover were interested in defectors, especially the women coming back with defectors. Right
1:21:24
around the right, I mean everyone was why not there was there was commye
1:21:30
uh you know, uh fever going on there for during that time, and
1:21:38
uh, what better way to surveil someone before they go into quote sleeper or
1:21:45
active mode than to possibly surveil them on the ship back. Doesn't seem out
1:21:50
of the realm of possibilities to me. Yeah, especially if they were quote
1:21:56
unquote done over there, or they possibly expressed interest in wanting to come back
1:22:02
to the States. You know, they did have their family. So again,
1:22:08
and then something that I found, I don't know where it is in
1:22:11
Joe's line up here did you put the all? Right? I found a
1:22:15
picture of a man on the left reclining on the deck of the SS mads
1:22:21
Dam along with two young ladies. Now I sent this to Joe, okay,
1:22:30
and I'm gonna make this a little bigger for everybody. So I sent
1:22:33
this to Joe and I said, you know what, Okay, So between
1:22:38
these two pictures there's approximately a year and a half to two years. Okay,
1:22:44
just look real closely for me. Look at the lips. Look at
1:22:47
the weird color hue of the lips on this guy. Look at the chin,
1:22:55
Look at the jowls, look at the nose, look at the ear,
1:23:00
look at the fade hairline, the haircut there, and notice this wavy
1:23:06
shit he's got going on on the top of his head here. And you
1:23:11
see the same kind of wave on the back part of this guy on the
1:23:14
left hair. Okay, Now, Joe said, Wow, the hairline is
1:23:18
a little a lot different. Okay, maybe the one on the left is
1:23:23
just a hair style. A lot can be done to cover up a widow's
1:23:28
peak like this, and then possibly, you know, two years later,
1:23:32
he's decided to go for the slicked back, look, you know whatever.
1:23:36
Who knows. And I'm not saying one hundred percent that this is James Herbert
1:23:40
Martin on the Man's Dawn, But damn if it doesn't look like him,
1:23:43
at least to me. I mean nothing, there's nothing that stands out like
1:23:47
it couldn't be him, Like, you know, he doesn't have a Roman
1:23:49
nose, or he doesn't have a you know, a sunken in chin,
1:23:57
or he doesn't have weird looking ears or you know, it's just, man,
1:24:00
I saw this picture and I was like, holy crap, you know,
1:24:04
uh, it could possibly be him. Possibly, That's all I'm saying.
1:24:10
It's interesting at least to me, and it is to me too,
1:24:15
and that lips are something different. But this guy has the same lips,
1:24:20
the same chin, the same the same ears, same hairstyle, same wavy
1:24:27
crap. You know, it's just same jowls. You know, he's just
1:24:30
slightly smiling on the left and then of course on the right he is not.
1:24:36
And we can't see his eyes on the left. But you know,
1:24:42
man, and I wanted to clarify. I also mentioned to Rob while I
1:24:47
noticed the difference in the hairline, that also the task that he might have
1:24:54
been given you know how president's age, know how they're the pictures of before
1:25:00
their president after their president, and they're like completely different, and they're like
1:25:05
bald, you know. Uh, the stress of the possible situation he was
1:25:13
put in could have decreased his hairline since and uh, yeah, I don't
1:25:18
think there were good barbers and uh and and he seems like the kind of
1:25:28
he seems like he'd be the same the type of tool who would wear a
1:25:33
suit on the deck of a ship, an ocean going ship. He just
1:25:38
seems like that guy, you know, and next to two women, which
1:25:41
would kind of indicate that this was a sham marriage. And I also noticed
1:25:45
if you look at his hairline above his ear, it turns a little gray,
1:25:49
kind of like mine. Also the same on the right. So yeah,
1:25:57
when I'm not saying it's one hundred percent him, but damn look like
1:26:00
I'm not saying that. But it's very weary. He's very well built in
1:26:08
both pictures, and just a very interesting thing we found that we wanted to
1:26:15
throw out there. We don't want to mondy the waters, but it's just
1:26:18
very interesting, and you know, at what point does it stop being a
1:26:25
coincidence? Yeah, it's not like we just have one thing. It's not
1:26:29
like we just have this photo and we're saying that James Herbert Martin was on
1:26:32
the Mass dam No. There's you know, several other factors, including his
1:26:39
name on the manifest So take it for what you will, folks. Yes,
1:26:47
do we have any questions from the crowd to address? Scott's got something
1:27:00
And that's why that's why I said it looked more like a hairstyle Scot.
1:27:03
Like, you know, you can do a lot to hide a widow's peak,
1:27:06
you know, like like Donald Trump. You know, you can do
1:27:09
the Donald Trump swoop or comb over or you know, push your hair down
1:27:14
on the front and comb it to the side kind of thing. And it
1:27:17
was. It was a windy day on the Mass damn. As you can
1:27:21
see from the photo, his hair was blowing all over the place as well.
1:27:26
You know, you can imagine you're on a giant ocean liner in the
1:27:29
middle of the ocean. There's going to be wind. Yes, yes,
1:27:36
no true flags that is from the right date ear matches. Yeah, I
1:27:45
mean, you know, there's nothing to me about those two comparison photos that
1:27:47
stands out that say this could not be the same person, you know,
1:27:51
like one doesn't have a different nose, one doesn't have a different chin.
1:27:57
The lips to me or lack thereof of lips, and the weird the weird
1:28:03
sheen and the color of them coming through in both black and white photos is
1:28:10
it's it's uncanny for sure, I agree, And then uh, guess we
1:28:18
can add that's the list of things like you know, Robertson and Daley Plaza
1:28:25
and him being known to always be on the missions right, didn't need defy
1:28:30
orders to go on the the they have pigs. This photo photo evidence is
1:28:36
always subject to interpretation, and it's not definitive either way of Oswald in the
1:28:45
door away or Miltier and Daily Plaza rip Robertson and Daly Plaza and so on
1:28:49
and so forth. One hundred percent of the people, We're not gonna all
1:28:54
agree that it's the same person. I'm just saying it looks pretty damn close
1:29:00
to me and possibly could be seeing as how we have a J. H.
1:29:06
Martin on the ship. Yeah, yeah, not true. Flags is
1:29:14
asking who was taking photos. I have no idea, but we have several
1:29:20
photos. I believe they were uploaded to a very obscure blog by either someone
1:29:31
associated with the line that the Masdam was on or was a passenger. I
1:29:39
don't I can't remember which. But we have photos of Oswald eating lunch by
1:29:45
himself in the Masdam dining room. There's other photos of other passengers eating as
1:29:55
well. There's photos of people sunbathing on the deck in a suit, you
1:30:00
know, stuff like this. But yeah, it's all. It's all very
1:30:04
interesting. And also you have to point out that if and this isn't if
1:30:12
James Herbert Martin talked with Oswalt or met with Oswalt, you know, maybe
1:30:17
Marina was in the room looking after the kids. He was dead by then,
1:30:23
so he wouldn't be able to say, hey, I know that guy.
1:30:28
Right. Yeah, And if Joe, if you want to talk for
1:30:34
a second, I want to try to find this photo of Oswald on the
1:30:38
mass down to show everybody. Sure, well, you run some interference for
1:30:43
me for a second. Interference beautiful? What type of all? Right?
1:30:51
But James, as you can see, the pattern we've shown you is that
1:30:57
there is a gap between James Herbert Martin's work timeline that very closely coincides with
1:31:05
the time Lee was in the USSR. We have a possible James Herbert Martin
1:31:14
on the mass dim. We have Marina and family post Oswalt's death moving into
1:31:29
the Martins. We have the whole Wanda Cia connection. We think there's a
1:31:35
lot going on here other than a possible opportunist. And that's what we talked
1:31:43
with Larry about. Was he an opportunist or was he just trying to make
1:31:46
money. He was a connected guy who was able to, you know,
1:31:51
nudge his way into having Marina stay with him and you know, take ten
1:31:58
percent of the big guy. Although no he had I'm sorry, ten percent
1:32:00
was for Thorn and actually Robert Oswald had five or ten percent, depending on
1:32:06
what document or bookie read. But he was present during the signing of the
1:32:15
contract with mister Thorn and mister with James or Martin and Marina I think was
1:32:20
This was on December ninth, nineteen sixty three, so that would be approximately
1:32:28
about eight eight days after she moved in with him. And then, of
1:32:34
course James Rover Martin uses international business connections, possibly from traveling with the carp
1:32:42
Blanche credit card company whatever he was doing during those couple of years, to
1:32:46
reach out to those international contacts and set up deals for books, for interviews,
1:32:56
for stories, and that's the thing we're trying to really nail down.
1:33:02
We think there's a lot more to this guy than is in the documents,
1:33:09
and we're trying to look deeper, and like always, we implore you to
1:33:15
try to help us. If you have any documents, please join our local
1:33:18
chat which will be in the description, and share with us some documents that
1:33:26
we will be sharing our James Rover Martin, John Martin Thorne, and all
1:33:31
other relevant documents to comparison pictures in the local strop box. And we have
1:33:40
probably over fifty documents on James River Martin alone, and some I think I
1:33:49
think is eighty pages and one is one hundred pages. I've read them both
1:33:56
a lot. Some of it is repeating, but it is very interesting.
1:34:01
And those documents will all be on locals and we hope you can try to
1:34:08
help us try to figure this out. That's right now, Joe, I
1:34:14
found a picture. I'm currently downloading it from my email to myself and let's
1:34:23
see if I can be able to share it here for the world to see.
1:34:34
Hold on, hum, sorry about this, folks. You know how
1:34:51
these things go. Preparation and all hey for onns, it's not me,
1:35:00
no, but you can help a brother out by talking while I'm looking for
1:35:01
this. Okay, So we have about, I want to say, ten
1:35:13
travel records of Wanda El Martin and marchin parties through ancest ancestry dot com travel
1:35:21
and immigration records that we have compiled, and we are currently in the process
1:35:29
of determining which ones could possibly be Wanda. So all right, folks,
1:35:34
here it is the much anticipated mass damn photo. If you'll see our boy
1:35:42
here on the all the way on the right, eating by himself. Now,
1:35:45
it would be awesome if this duf is here with this weird hat on
1:35:50
was James Herbert Martin and Wanda and family. But it's not. We're not
1:35:55
saying it is. It doesn't look like him. But damn if that you're
1:35:59
not Wald sitting back there, that is Oswald. Now. The story is
1:36:04
that Oswald didn't let Marina come out of the room very often for whatever reason.
1:36:13
I don't know, but that's definitely Oswald on the mass damn folks.
1:36:17
And there's a lot of pictures from this mass damn stuff that have surfaced in
1:36:24
the in recent years. Look at his hairline and so straight. It was
1:36:30
very well kept, Yeah, very well dressed. Well, look at him,
1:36:34
Yeah, handsome fella loner Lee Oswald. I think that this would be
1:36:43
the perfect time for a random person to come talk to him, say,
1:36:48
hey, what's up? Can I say with you? Right? And then
1:36:55
of course by the time Marine moves in with that potential person, he's done,
1:37:00
so we can't say I know this guy. Wait, but yeah,
1:37:04
that's definitely Oswald on the mass down. So crazy, crazy stuff, folks.
1:37:13
And of course this is just scratching the surface on things that we found.
1:37:17
There is a metric f ton of documents associated with this whole thing,
1:37:24
because you've got the Secret Service, you got the FBI, you got c
1:37:28
i A, you got DPD all interested in what's going on with James,
1:37:34
Herbert Martin and Marina and Thorn and MSUs Martin and all those documents. We're
1:37:42
gonna we're gonna put up over at locals for everybody that's members there. And
1:37:47
we want to thank our premium local sponsors, Mark checks Nader, Mandy Kingham
1:37:56
and John in Seattle. We appreciate the support and I hope you enjoy deep
1:38:01
diving into a lot of these documents like we did. But uh, yeah,
1:38:08
a lot of a lot of crazy stuff going on. What's up,
1:38:11
cat daddy, Steve? Are you? Are you really a cat father?
1:38:18
It's cool if you are. Yeah, I imagine finding that's too much information.
1:38:30
Joe, go tell your girlfriend empty the cat litter box in the bathroom.
1:38:36
No, she hates scots real, so not gonna happen here. But
1:38:46
dogs, we are in negotiation with dog. Dogs. Dog first, then
1:38:54
kids, that's how it goes. Nope, mm hmm, not just in
1:39:00
case, don't poo poo right away. I don't think she's gonna get get
1:39:06
into an hour and forty five minutes of this, so no, kid's Wow,
1:39:14
we are that far into it. We are. I think that's a
1:39:17
good time to kind of close it out. You agree, absolutely, And
1:39:23
just wanted to thank everybody for hanging out with us today and sticking around and
1:39:27
putting up with our shenanigans and our story. But like I said, there's
1:39:30
a lot to unpack here, and this story is not over by any means
1:39:36
necessary, But we are going to put a put a pin in it for
1:39:40
now to revisit in the future. We might have larry On here to hash
1:39:45
it out or maybe some other folks reached out to So stay tuned. There's
1:39:51
always more to find out and if it can be you know, because everybody
1:39:57
likes to think that, Okay, the Pains or pain you know, kind
1:40:00
of babysat Marina or watched over for the CIA, and people think that the
1:40:05
des morn Shields we're doing the same thing with Marina and Lee. It's not
1:40:12
out of the realm possibility that somebody had tasked the Martins to do the same
1:40:16
thing with Marina after the assassination. So again, this story is ongoing.
1:40:25
And yeah, just thank you everybody for showing up and participating. We really
1:40:32
appreciate it. And yeah, Joe, you want to take us out,
1:40:39
sure well. I once again want to thank everyone, especially our local supporters.
1:40:45
That is the best way to support us and talk to us and research
1:40:55
with us. And we look forward to seeing you there. Also, we
1:41:00
have some fun merch in the store that is making fun of myself. We
1:41:08
do. And I've not received rob I have not received my Christmas present.
1:41:13
Well it's not Christmas yet. Yeah, well, you're running out of days.
1:41:15
Today's Saturday. There's no mail on Sunday. There's not gonna be any
1:41:19
mail on Monday, So is it gonna come today? Well, I've got
1:41:21
good and bad news about the merch The bad news is they nixed my ruby
1:41:26
design. He would just eat them and stuff. They mixed it under a
1:41:30
copyright. Can you believe that that's my own design? But anyway, that's
1:41:39
the bad news. The good news is for the merch side of things.
1:41:45
January third to January seventh, everything in the merch shop is going to be
1:41:50
twenty four percent off. So just hold off a little bit longer. And
1:41:55
after the first of the year January third through the seventh, everything in the
1:41:59
store twenty four percent off, just for you, no code needed. Yeah,
1:42:06
that's uh, that's a quarter off. That's not anything. Just seeze
1:42:13
about. Ain't nothing to sneeze at there, Joseph. No, So will
1:42:17
we close it out with the song? Are you gonna sing it? No?
1:42:24
I got seen along and an air guitar during the solo. If Roger's
1:42:29
still here, he can he can sing, but we definitely cannot sing.
1:42:33
But Roger can and here he is. Pop up up up peace name it's
1:43:00
my don't you it is that? My finding the show Jesus amount original cher
1:43:12
every week, getting a wood and trus my avery week and thought I to
1:43:21
wear before a movie in a chambers might find a relationship. Don't get my
1:44:00
name, my man, I want by and got the page of your mother
1:44:12
with the job Stree Jim, John, Juno, Joe and Jack after your
1:44:15
time, very job Wille and Jean and Jackie. Don't go Jan and job
1:44:21
my d No, I don't know, so we get game my jam after
1:44:29
voted the big Sure we hope we don't tell you. I'm going to join
1:44:34
spe me your God, your job. Peace, See you next time you
1:44:46
guys. Thank you again. Hollo