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Antimetabole and Chiasmus · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: host with the most who is the most host, Abraham?
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  Speaker 2: And I am your host that understands that could be
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  Speaker 2: a beetlejuice reference Host Shane.
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  Speaker 1: Not intentionally, but maybe coincidentally, as we will see. Anyway,
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  Speaker 1: we are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: talk about the grammatical rhetorical devices that we have invented,
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  Speaker 1: which is the case for our discussion today. But if
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: you're joining us for the first time, welcome help you
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  Speaker 1: enjoy what you hear in this discussion. And although I
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: just said we're talking about grammar, hopefully that doesn't scare
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you away, because at the core of this, what I
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  Speaker 1: think this is is an attempt to help you be
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  Speaker 1: less able to be manipulated by nefarious people and also
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: maybe help you be a slightly better writer at the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: same time. And if you're a returning person, then welcome back.
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  Speaker 1: Say message goes for you as far as the intention
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: of this discussion trying to help you learn to be
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  Speaker 1: manipulated less frequently, less easily. Thank you for coming back.
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  Speaker 1: I hope that you keep coming back. And either way,
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  Speaker 1: tell a friend. I'll talk more about those at the
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  Speaker 1: end of this discussion, but before we get to our
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: topic of the day. Today is May twentieth, and importantly
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  Speaker 1: that is Eliza Doolittle Day.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I love that it's also Emancipation Day, specifically to Florida dough.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: I'm just waiting for DeSantis to overturn that. I'm sure
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: he will.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, probably. It is Emergency Medical Services Day, very important.
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  Speaker 2: Love that it's also flower Day.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, okay, good, International Clinical Trials Day research.
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  Speaker 2: Good like research. It is National Juice Slush Day.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, it is National keishe Lorraine Day?
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  Speaker 2: Yep? Whoever that is?
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Or whatever that is?
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Is it a food? Is it a person?
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll never know. I mean, I guess Google is
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: your friend. I guess you could probably look that up.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's National Rescue Dog.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Day, as in you rescue the dog, or the dog
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: rescues you, or the dog is a rescuer. All the things.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, all the things.
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  Speaker 1: Dog's good. It is Pick Strawberries Day. It feels a
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  Speaker 1: little early in the season for that, but okay.
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  Speaker 2: Here, No, it's like you have a couple of strawberry
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  Speaker 2: and blueberry farms that like their their entire industry is having.
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  Speaker 2: This is a wild thing. I'm gonna go on a
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  Speaker 2: side note real quick. There's a local farm that like,
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  Speaker 2: you pay to go pick strawberries so they don't have
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  Speaker 2: to pick strawberries. So it's pretty great. It's like we
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  Speaker 2: grew with They're like, we grew a farm. You pay
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  Speaker 2: us and then you go pick strawberries and you can
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  Speaker 2: take the strawberries home that you pick, but you pay
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  Speaker 2: us to pick those strawberries. So it's kind of cool.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: That's kind of a model around. I did that when
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  Speaker 1: I was a kid in Nebraska. They have them here
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: in Nevada. I think this is the thing is they
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  Speaker 1: it's like a farm to table customer relations. You go
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: to the farm and you're like, I'd like to give
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  Speaker 1: you twenty bucks to go out and work your fields,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: and they're like, yeah, that sounds good.
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  Speaker 2: Go ahead, yeah, you go go ahead. Yeah, it's actually
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  Speaker 2: a great model. It works. So yeah, it's uh waits
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  Speaker 2: and measure day. So when you go pick strawberries. They
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: will weigh it and then they will charge you for it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. It is World Bee Day. Even though bees can
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: be scary, they are very important for us. Bees also good.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, bees also good. It is World Metrology Day.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know that means I neither do I okay,
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  Speaker 1: not meteorology.
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  Speaker 2: What I looked at up it said metrology. So while
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: we go through the rest of the holidays, let me
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  Speaker 2: verify this.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough. It is International Red Sneakers Day.
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  Speaker 2: Oh okay. Also, I just verified metrology is the science
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  Speaker 2: of measurement.
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  Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. Actually, I should from
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  Speaker 1: you know what it sucks.
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  Speaker 2: We both should have known that. Like that, that's with
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: the type of jobs that we do, and like the
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  Speaker 2: art field, and like the things that we love. We
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  Speaker 2: should have known that. That's okay, Hey, listen, we allow
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: to have gaps in our knowledge. Okay, we're always learning,
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  Speaker 2: we're always growing.
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  Speaker 1: Actually, our mini this week, I think, I think the
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: mini that will have come out before this is actually
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: kind of about having gaps in your knowledge. Even though
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: you're an expert in something, not an expert in all things.
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  Speaker 1: And apparently identifying the roots of words is not one
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  Speaker 1: of the things. We're an export.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe we're just off our game today. That's fine, that
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: could be. It's my least favorite week of the year.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: International Pickle Week.
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  Speaker 1: Do you don't like pickles? I ate pickles? Oh my goodness. Okay, well,
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  Speaker 1: you and I have a lot in common. That is
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  Speaker 1: a way in which we are different.
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  Speaker 2: Pickles of mustard. We we are divided on.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, you know there is a jalapenio mustard. Have you
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  Speaker 1: had had a jalapeno mustard?
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  Speaker 3: I have not.
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  Speaker 2: That's actually probably pretty good. I like pickle jalapinos too,
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  Speaker 2: So okay, okay, somewhere in there, there is going to
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  Speaker 2: be an overlap. There is, Yeah, there is overlap on
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  Speaker 2: our vent diagram. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: We're trying to trying to figure out this van diagram
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  Speaker 1: here or we'll get there. It is actually National band
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  Speaker 1: Director's Day. That's really cool.
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  Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. I like that. And for my baseball
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  Speaker 2: fans out there, it is National foul ball Week. The
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: bird ball, Yeah, chicken ball, chicken ball.
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  Speaker 1: All right, Well, we don't just make jokes about the holidays,
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  Speaker 1: even though that is fun to do it, and they're not.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, these are real holidays. These are you know,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: we look these up and we share them because it's
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  Speaker 1: fun to do so. Because you listen to this on
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  Speaker 1: a day of the week, and if you listen to
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  Speaker 1: this on the day of the week it publishes, then hey,
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: you're now more in the know. You can go can
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: congratulate someone, or maybe you already celebrate and you're like,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to be seen and now I feel seen,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: and we're happy to provide that from you. But we've
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: been there. It is time now to move on to
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  Speaker 1: our topic of the day. We are going to use
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  Speaker 1: this time in this discussion today to show you some
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  Speaker 1: really one primarily but a couple related, some rhetorical devices
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  Speaker 1: that are surprisingly and even a little frighteningly effective at
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: convincing people of things, and hopefully and being able to
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  Speaker 1: better recognize these strategies, you will be more and better
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  Speaker 1: armed against the rhetoric designed to deceive and manipulates you.
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  Speaker 1: And to be fair, and I'm going to say this
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  Speaker 1: some multiple times in here, because we are going to
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  Speaker 1: sort of unpack how these things work and how people
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  Speaker 1: use them in nefarious ways. But just because they are
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  Speaker 1: used that way does not mean that they are inherently
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  Speaker 1: wrong or add nothing of value, So they actually can
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  Speaker 1: sometimes be a great way to impart information in such
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  Speaker 1: a way that it is memorable and that it helps
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  Speaker 1: people better connect with the topic. So just understanding that,
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  Speaker 1: although part of the intention here is to help you
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  Speaker 1: be armed against deception, just because someone uses these rhetorical
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  Speaker 1: devices does not mean that they are actually trying to
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  Speaker 1: deceive you, or that what they're doing is nefarious or
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  Speaker 1: wrong in any way.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, sure, it's really I would imagine that what
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  Speaker 2: we're trying to do here is to give you awareness
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  Speaker 2: so you can look for it and look at how
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  Speaker 2: it affects you.
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  Speaker 1: That's exactly it. Yes, that is precisely what we're trying
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  Speaker 1: to do. Thank you for illustrating that.
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  Speaker 2: Bingo, I can see.
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  Speaker 1: This is why we we need both of us here
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  Speaker 1: for these sort of things. You're so good at bringing that.
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  Speaker 2: That's the only way I understand everything is if I
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  Speaker 2: can I can relate you to something like that like
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  Speaker 2: I can, like you can. You can use a bunch
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  Speaker 2: of big words, but I if I can't explain it,
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  Speaker 2: and it's the way that I understand it that I
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  Speaker 2: don't understand it. So, which is why we've never done
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  Speaker 2: we've not. Yeah, we've never done an episode on quantu physics,
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  Speaker 2: which we should.
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  Speaker 1: True.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, we'll get there one day. All right, So
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  Speaker 2: let's talk about this thing. So there is a broader
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  Speaker 2: context to be had here about the effective repetition in
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  Speaker 2: rhetoric and persuasive arguments. However, this discussion is going to
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  Speaker 2: be focused on a specific strategy of rhetorical manipulation, and we.
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  Speaker 1: Are actually going to bring in some aspects of repetition.
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  Speaker 1: But that'll become more clear in a moment. So use
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  Speaker 1: of this rhetorical device, and I know we haven't named
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  Speaker 1: it yet, that's intentional we're going to here in a moment.
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  Speaker 1: But use of this device that we're discussing it can
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  Speaker 1: be seen in politics and literature, and it dates back centuries.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I mean this is something the Greeks used,
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  Speaker 1: so like, this has been around for a very long time.
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  Speaker 1: So we're gonna give you some examples and you'll probably
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  Speaker 1: start to pick up on the pattern. But in eighteen
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  Speaker 1: twenty four, Lord Byron wrote pleasures a sin and sometimes
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  Speaker 1: sins a pleasure.
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  Speaker 2: Every time I hear the word lord, I think of
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  Speaker 2: Randy from South Park.
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  Speaker 1: Going, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord.
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  Speaker 2: Lord Lord. Yeah. Alexander Dumas wrote in the Three muskusiers
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  Speaker 2: all for one and one for all.
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  Speaker 1: In French should be dumah by the way, dumah.
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  Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, well I'm American, so do mass Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's a great joke in the Shawshank Redemption,
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  Speaker 1: He's like Alexander dumba ass.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.
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  Speaker 1: Anyway, Joseph Kennedy said on several occasions, when the going
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  Speaker 1: gets tough, the tough get going. Probably something some of
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  Speaker 1: you have heard before.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, John F. Kennedy said during his nineteen sixty one
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  Speaker 2: inaugural address, ask not what your contract couldover, but what
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  Speaker 2: jukendo very contry something like that maybe better.
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  Speaker 1: That was pretty good, though you did get the mid
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Atlantic accent. Pretty nice. I try for those bibliophiles amost us,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: people who are quite fond of the Bible, of which
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: I think we have zero but as listeners, not that
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: there are zero in the world. There's lots in the world,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: but it's not very many. Anyway. In the Bible, you
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: have Isaiah five twenty, which reads, quote woe unto them
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  Speaker 1: that call evil good and good evil who put darkness
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  Speaker 1: for light and light for darkness. Who put bitter for
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  Speaker 1: sweet and sweet for bitter?
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  Speaker 2: End?
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  Speaker 1: Quote like that is such a good description of our
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: current administration. People have yeah, who call evil good and
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  Speaker 1: good evil?
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Uh huh? Yep, yep, yep, yep. And then Ronald Reagan
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: said in the nineteen eightes, don't worry. I'm not going
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: to do a Reagan accent. The East and West do
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  Speaker 2: not mistrust each other because we are armed. We are
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: armed because we mistrust each other.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So have you picked up on the path yet, Shane?
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  Speaker 1: Do you feel like you've picked up on it yet?
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  Speaker 2: No?
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, No I do, Yeah, No, I feel good. I
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  Speaker 2: feel like I got the powdern yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So this is something called an anti metabolie, and
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  Speaker 1: this is a rhetorical device used in writing and speeches.
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it one more time. Anti metaboli not
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: spelled how you might think it's spelled. It looks like
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: it's It would be pronounced anti metabol which is a
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  Speaker 1: N T I M E T A B O L
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  Speaker 1: E anti metabolie. An anti metabolite consists of words repeated
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  Speaker 1: across successive clauses, but with the order of those words transposed,
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  Speaker 1: so you see like pleasures of sin, sins of pleasure.
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  Speaker 1: It's just it's taking the same words reverse or changing
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  Speaker 1: the order, transposing the order, and that creates sort of
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  Speaker 1: a new meaning, a new interpretation of the phrasing that's
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: being delivered.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, anti metaboli belonged to a class of phrasing known
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  Speaker 2: as chiasmus, and that's spelled c h I A S
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  Speaker 2: m U S. And although in general, while chasmus uses
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: transposed grammatical phrases, it does not depend on word repetition.
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  Speaker 2: There's also a writing technique that also uses repetition called
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: an expletive, which mostly just elongate sentences unnecessarily using it
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: here and this as the sentence subject per se. We're
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: not going to go into those. We're gonna specifically focus
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: on anti metaboli.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, an anti ad a belie. All right, we're back.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: We're talking about anti metaboli and listing some of the
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: other sort of rhetorical device and classifications this belong to.
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  Speaker 1: There's more of them. There's like epifinab I don't know.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: There's there's like a bunch of ones that have different
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: sort of Greek roots that mean similar things that belong
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  Speaker 1: to these classes. I didn't write them all.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Down, but there's lots of abolis.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Yes, pro metaboli is probably in.
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  Speaker 2: There somewhere, for sure. It's there.
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  Speaker 1: It's gotta be anyway. The word anti metabolic comes from
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  Speaker 1: Greek anti meaning opposite, are against, and metaboli, which means
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  Speaker 1: turning about or change. And similarly, the word kiasmus also
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  Speaker 1: comes from Greek roots meaning roughly crossing or shaped like
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: an X, sort of that cross shape. That's what that means. Anyway.
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  Speaker 1: The core feature of these is whether you're talking about
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the chiasmus the general category, or anti metaboli, the specific
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: type of chiasmus. The core feature of this is demonstrating
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  Speaker 1: the reversal of grammatical components. That's really the primary thing
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  Speaker 1: that is universal across these. And these follow an ab
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  Speaker 1: b a pattern like you would expect to see in poetry.
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  Speaker 1: So it has your clause set up for this word
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  Speaker 1: follows this word, and then reverse those. Now the word
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  Speaker 1: that was following comes first and the first word comes last,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: although sometimes it's a lot longer than that, but that's
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: that's the general mirror images you have. It flows from
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  Speaker 1: A to B and then reverses B to a.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, that makes sense. A few examples of chiasmus
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: are quote by day, the frolic and the dance by night.
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  Speaker 1: And that one you have the example where it's like
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: by day and then it sort of switches so and
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: often in the ecasmus actually it flips opposite, meaning as well,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: so day and night, frolic and dance anyway, so it
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: starts where it's like by day this thing and then
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: this thing by night. It's sort of you see how
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: it follows the abba order.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely So another one is love's fire
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  Speaker 2: heats water, water cools, not love, right, so you can
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: see kind of like that same like criss cross or
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: he brightly spoke and I replied clearly. So of course,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: all examples of anti metaboli are also a form of chiasmus.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: So you've already heard a bunch of those, and we'll
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: hear more in this episode. So we are going to
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: do this quite a bit.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Most of those that we included here for the kiasmus
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: come from Shakespeare. He used kiasmus and anti metaboli a lot.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: I actually had a fewer examples of like more contemporary
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: writing using kiasmus which I think is unfortunate because I
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: actually think it's a cool way. It's a cool literary
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: device to help can they information in a particular way
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: that sort of conveys a meaning or feeling. But anyway, yeah,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: moving on. What I think is particularly interesting about chiasmus
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and anti metabolie specifically is how this phenomenon manages to
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: create a feeling of truth about the message being conveyed.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Sure you, like, we'll go back.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: To one of them, like there is the pleasures of sin,
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  Speaker 1: and sometimes sins a pleasure, And I think you hear that,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: and you immediately feel like, ah, I get exactly what
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: you're saying here, right, I understand you hear something like
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: the French work to live, the Americans live to work,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: and you might start to identify this like that is accurate,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: That conveys some important truth. And the fact that it
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: works that way is likely the reason that writers have
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: latched onto this in the first place. Why people who
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: did any kind of oration or prose have started using
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: it is because they notice the effect that portraying language
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: in this way can have, and did that so so
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: long ago, Like I said, we're talking thousands of years.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: People figured out this is a thing that you could
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: do the fact that it works as well as it
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: does is the reason that it's interesting to dissect for
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: analysis in something like this. So anyway, that's sort of
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: what I'm getting at here is it's like if I
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: were trying to set up where it's like, French just
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: want to live, Americans just want to work. I'm like,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: it feel like it doesn't have the same kind of payoff,
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  Speaker 1: and you might be more likely to try and disagree
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  Speaker 1: with me. But saying it like the French work to live,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Americans live to work. All of a sudden you have
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: this like I go, I'm picking up what you're laying down.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe some people have different reactions to it, but that's
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the way I feel like most people tend to hear
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: and feel with the respect to those types of deliveries.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, it makes
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: sense because it's just it's again, that's how that's how
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: it works. Right. You hear that and you go, yeah, okay,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I can I understand this, Like it's a vibe, you know.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: It's a vibe that's so good.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: So unfortunately, most scholarly work on antimetaboliti has been focused
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: on its use in literature and less on its use
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: in psychology. However, psychology has directly and tangentially examined one
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: important aspect of antimetabolitie, which is repetition. But of course
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: we'll do our best to apply what we know about
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: psychology to layer a conceptual analysis about why antimatabolia specifically
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: might be more preferred than simple repetition and why antimetabolite
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: specifically seems to be very, very very effective in language.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: All right, so let's talk about repetition specifically what we
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: understand about it. So let's start with the sort of
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: neuroscience thing. I think this is an aspect a lot
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: of people tend to latch onto, and whether or not
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: we feel like it tells us the most about understanding
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: the context of these things. There's still something to be
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: learned here, and learning is good. So repetition we like it. Yeah,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: when we're talking about repetition, A lot of the reason
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: that we are bringing this up in this context, it
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: has to do with how we acquire in information and
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: how likely we are to remember that have it be
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: impactful for us, And neuroscience considers acquisition of new information, skills, habits,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: et cetera, to essentially be a matter of sort of
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: short term storage to long term memory storage. That's a
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: very reductive way to put it. I know neuroscientists are
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: probably going to be if they heard this would be
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: like now, but I think, just generally speaking, a reductive
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: way to think of it as like and we're learning,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: we're talking about short term memory storage and whatever is
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: in there sort of transitioning to long term memory storage.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And again reductive to general but generally they classify the
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: three processes of transferring memory from short term to long
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: term memory storage as there being a sense of urgency,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: there being association, and repetition, and so this is where
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: we're getting into how repetition works here, but we'll go
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: through each of those three really quick.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So association is pairing new information with existing information.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: So it's making new concepts become familiar by association with
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: already known information.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one where I like to share this.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of early education, particularly in the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: United States. I don't know how they do it in
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: other countries, but they really like association as a form
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: of teaching. They like this thing and this thing go together,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: and I get it that does make some amount of sense,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk more about how that relates to these things.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Well sort of will tangentially touch on how that relates
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: to learning. But I have a lot of experience with this.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: When I have historically tried to learn new vocabulary, I've
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: tried to think of people that I know that I
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: can associate that new vocabulary word to that person. Like
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: the way I remembered the definition of the word air
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: udite when I was learning picking that up, you know,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: for the gr and whatnot is by thinking of someone
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: about whom I felt that they that was an appropriate
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: adjective sure or noun, depending on how you're using it.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so like that's always been sort of my
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: history with trying to learn new vocabulary words. Is I
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: will hear a word and I'm like, oh, that's a
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: cool word. I want to remember, And the way that
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I remember it is by thinking of a person that
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: that word makes me think of that I think is
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: appropriate to them, and just building that association that helps
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: it stick better.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why, like when we started doing the podcast
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: and you learn the word swamp ape, you associated that
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: with me and here we are. So now you know
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: what swamp pape is, and that's how you get encrypted, right, Like,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: that's how you got crypted, stuck in your stuck in
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: your craw So yeah, okay, so if you say something
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit of self depreciation, folks, that's what we
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: like to do here, or at least I do. Continuing
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: on with some of these processes, urgency refers to stressful situations.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: Our brains release stress hormones, which create a powerful connection
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to the sensory inputs of the situations and therefore, immediately
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: and permanently, depending on how severe the urgency is or
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: how severe that situation is, it encodes it into long
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: term memory. Our perception of the event will be a
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: contributing factor to how stressful we find the situation, which
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: is another interesting topic for another day. What is interpretation?
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: We don't really, that's a whole That term comes up
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: so much, especially when it cut like when it comes
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: into metrology, like the in data science, like when we
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: have to interpret data. Interpretations are its own thing and
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: kind of unique and subject to a lot of variables.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: We should probably do an episode on that one day.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: We'll do a whole suite on that and then you
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: can interpret it how you want. Yeah.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: I remember when I was in undergrad and I took
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: a class on perception, and I was thinking of perception
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: as like interpretation. It was like what something means to you,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: what your takeaway from an experience is. That was not
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: what that class was about.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: That was preparently about.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: How we interpret visual information or how we perceive visual information,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: which was like, here's how eyeball works. Yeah, and here's
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: some like visual tricks that trick your brain into do
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: like perceiving things in a weird way. Yeah, here's a
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: magic eye stuff like that. So that was that class.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: But anyway, the point being that you can imagine someone
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: in one situation having a just completely opposite, different, wildly
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: variable reaction to someone else in the exact same situation,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and why those two things are so different is an
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: interesting discussion point sure, not why we're here today. So
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: moving on, as you said, could be a suite of things,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: but just the whole point being, so far we have association.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: With respect to learning acquiring new information, you have association,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: which is just you have related an unfamiliar thing to
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: a familiar thing, so that you have a way to
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: remember it. The urgency is like, how important does this feel?
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Is those relevance to like immediacy and danger and whatever.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: I think the urgency tends to happen in situations that
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: feel dangerous or intense or high stakes. That's sort of
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: what they're leaning towards here. And then how well you
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: can not remember ads? All right, we're back been talking
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: about what neuroscience broadly classifies as processes for acquiring new
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: information or skills or habits whatever. And we talked about
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: the association urgency, and then the last one here repetition.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: You notice you've repeated those other ones.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Uh huh.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: And this is really the primary one for discussing today.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And the reason that I saved it for last is
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: because we're want to spend a little bit more time here,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and even neuroscientists you'll find the literature repetition actually creates
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the strongest learning according to neurology. What strongest means in
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: this context, what even learning means in this context would
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: again be another whole side discussion, but suffice it to
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: say that, like when we're talking about learning, repetition is
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: going to be the way that you have the most
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I guess thorough transfer from short term long term memory.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: And this is what it sounds like. The more times
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: you do something, here's something, see something, whatever, the more
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: likely you are in you experience something, the more likely
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: it will encode into memory, and the long term memory
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: specifically and repetition. When it happens, this also is accompanied
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: by the release of neurotransmitters, and this also forges new
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: neural connections, greater dendrite density in parts of your brain,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: and that establish not just the explicit memory, but associations
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: that build generative behavioral repertoires. So what's important about repetition
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: is particularly because every time you do hear or experience something,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: it's in a slightly novel context from how you've done
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: it before. It starts to create a generalized experience. So
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, here is a nugget of information that
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: has all the other features of the other things. It
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: could have urgency, it could have associations, and it builds
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: those things so that learning one thing actually helps you
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: know about a lot of other things. It's kind of
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: one of the unique things about how language allows us
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to relate things together in totally arbitrary ways. But that's
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: what's happening here is when you do repetition, you are
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: actually building more connections in your brain. That is the
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: thing that happens and part of the reason that it's
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: so good at sticking and how having things actually exist
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: long term.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like that's where the term neuroplasticity comes in.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean related part of it.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Related.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, plus is a very broad topic, but
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: that is an aspect of it.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, don't worry, we're not gonna We're not
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: hanging it out all that today. All right, so let's
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: talk about some science. A twenty eighteen study compared learning
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: something once versus learning something six times. For the group
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: that learned it six times, they had significantly increased activity
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: in their hippocampus and pre hippocampal place area. I love,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: like the amount of syllables that are in neurology terms,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: so many. Yeah, they also saw weaker activation in the perihindle.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: I think it's perihinal yeahle cortex, parahinal cortex PRC, as
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: well as anterior ventrilateral prefrontal cortex or vlPFC.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Who wanted that, Yeah, you're welcome now thinking about this too,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Like we were understanding the fact that we have these
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: new connections that are forged, we see how much activation
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: there is important parts of our brains that are associated
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: with memory, memory, storage, retrieval, encoding, et cetera. But it
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense to think about the way
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: that that would happen too, because behavior involves a wide
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: variety of sensory inputs and interactions with stimuli. It also
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: usually involves coordinated motor movements, and it involves feedback that
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: strengthens or weakens the association between your response and a given stimulus.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: It is a complex, multifaceted system interaction with feedback loops
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: that help strengthen, shape and create sort of mold those
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: pieces together in your brain. But it takes time. Like
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: repetition means having the experience over and over. Duh, that's
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: the definition of repetition. Sure, and that could take a while,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Like you just you have to have that constant, repeated contact,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: where some of the other ones are kind of a
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: one and done thing. With repetition, it takes a little
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: bit of time, but it does build a very lasting
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: experience and repertoire around that thing. But as we said,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: like it just involves so many other things that exposure.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Most of the time, like particularly when you're learning a
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: new skill or you're building a new habit. It is
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: all of the coordination of all the parts of your body.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: It is like so many stimulus features, functions and cues,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: so many bodily sensations, movements and coordinations and all of
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: that happening simultaneously. It just builds this really nice sort
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: of meshed network of things that helps that encode into
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: memory and have a powerful sort of place there.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So even the simple act of repeating a
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: word in a phrase starts the to function like repetition
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: in practice, which has the effect that it sticks well
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: in our memories. Anti metabolay tends to have multiple repeated
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: words in the same sentence or in the same phrases,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: and it makes their relation to one another variable because
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: the order changes. So you've got a couple of different
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: things happening there. But the repetition piece is so critical,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: and that's the part that we keep kind of getting
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: at or repeating.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, keep repeating it. This is a good way to
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: transition to applying understanding of behavior, to conceptualize what might
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: be going on with the anti metabolie. Understanding that this
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: is what we're going to say about this has not
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: necessarily been validated by research, so it may not actually
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: be like the accurate final say. It's just as I said,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: most of the research that has been done on these
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: specifically has been relatively allocated toward literature, which is fine,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Like it makes sense because this is a largely written phenomenon,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: but it makes sense to us as a way to
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: begin applying what theory we do have to the phenomenon
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: of interest, which in this case is the anti metabolie
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: and why it would be effective.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, with respect to the importance of words changing order,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: a couple factors are likely relevant. One repeated presentation of
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: stimuli can actually have a habituation effect. That is, if
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: we experience the same stimuli over and over, we start
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: to respond to it less and less. We even get
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: to the point of having to exert effort to pay
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: attention to it. This is not true of all things,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: of course, like not just stimulized sometimes becomes more effective
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: with more repetitions, but it does happen quite a bit,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: and changing the order helps create enough variability that it
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: can help prevent onset of habituation. So, given that each
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: word is only repeated once, and antimetabolity is difficult to
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: presume that it is a particularly pronounced variable.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole variable of the repeated practice. It only
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: has one opportunity for repetition, which is still more than zero,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: and it does have an effect, but not sure that
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: it's like the most important variable here. What I think
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: is probably a more powerful variable. I think they're both related,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: but the one that I think is doing heavy lifting
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: here has to do with something called transformation of stimulus function.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And without getting two into the weeds on this, although
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: I do think it's a very interesting topic worth spending
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: some time on, it essentially comes down to the fact
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: that words have meaning, but their meaning is contextualized by
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the other words around them and their delivery. So like
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: they only have meaning because they have a reference, because
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: we've used them that way, and the words around them
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: that allow us to Like, if I were to just
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: say something like kumquat, you're like, Okay, that is a word.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: I know what that thing refers to, but why are
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: you saying this? Right? Sure, but if I were to
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: say more things about it, then that all of a
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: sudden gives the context by changing the order of the
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: words In an anti metabolie, you're still using the familiar words,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: like there's still the opportunity for repetition, but you can
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: really powerfully alter the function of those words by creating
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: an antithetical relationship. So now the function they have has
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: switched from having this thing means this to this thing
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: does not mean this. And it's usually that big of
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: a swing, right, Like usually the meaning of these words
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: has a full of like one to eighty flip in
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: their meaning or their impact in these sentences when you
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: hear an anti metabolie delivered right.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: So that is, establish a relationship or a relation in
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: reference to those words, then flip it to create the
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: opposite reference, and this can have a bit more of
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: an emotional payoff, a surprise, and again it restates the
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: familiar terms. All of this can help it stick in
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: the memory, which is why when it's almost like why
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: we can remember things like when the tough get going
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: to going get tough, you know, like that it's easy
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: to remember and like it elicit certain responses and does
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: all these things, but like it's an easy one and
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: you go, okay, I know what it means, and it
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: creates those kind of like those inverse relations. It's really interesting.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I do think there's probably an aspect
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: of us sort of silently repeating those things to ourselves
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: when we hear them. It's like, oh, that was a
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: thing like that, I recognize that I'm going to say
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: it again in my mind, and not that we have
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: that explicit line of thinking, but I think we hear
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: it and then we sort of automatically want to say
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: it again to like feel like we've got that meeting.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Sometimes in another way that this form of communication can
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: help stick in your memory, we're talking about the anti
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: metaboli and also the way that it boosts us putatively
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: authentic truthiness is that it is a novel way that
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: we hear information presented. Right, If you can imagine, try
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: to imagine, if you will, that our entire language, our
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: whole system of communication, maybe across the world, but at
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: least in English, since that's the language we're speaking. Imagine
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: that language was built on this form of repetition and
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: transverse order. Every sentence we say followed this particular delivery
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: style of anti metaboliy. Right, if it was nothing would
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: seem particularly memorable or important about a phrasing, A delivery
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: because everything would be familiar, everything would be repetition, right,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: So part of what likely is contributing to again just
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: part I think all of these variables are relevant, but
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I do think a part of this is that simply
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: presenting a unique phrasing can help it stand out and
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: stick better because it's just not a way you tend
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: to hear sentences be delivered. As sentences were always said
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: this way, then sane in this way would no longer
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: have a unique impact. But the fact that we don't
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: tend to talk this way has it stand out in
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: our minds as being unique and special and not of
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: the norm. And so that variability, the variance from expectations,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: creates a unique sort of novel experience as well.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. Now. Finally, because
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: this uses repeated words presented in a particular order, it
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: creates a sort of patterned musicality to it. I'm so
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: glad we're talking about this because I do think that
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: like having like a rhyming type of scheme or like
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: a pattern or a musicality, something that's got like kind
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: of a flow and like it's easy to remember. I
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: think that makes perfect sense because it does kind of
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: like stick with you because of the uniqueness of that phrasing, right, Yeah,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: it helps stick because it has a cadence, a rhythm,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: a pattern, and we are see a pattern seeking species,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: like as humans, we like to see patterns, and we
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: see patterns everywhere, whether or not they even exist. So
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: manufacturing patterns creates a unique, chained relationship between the components
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: that we can follow and remember. And this is not
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: anti metabolay, but like I learned this in third grade.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: This is how I count by certain numbers. So like
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: we learn to count when we were doing multiplication tables,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: like we learned to count by certain numbers, and we
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: use songs. So every time I count by numbers, I
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: count with that tune in mind, sure, except for I
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: stop at a certain number and then I end with
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: a phrase like so like I here, you know when
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: I think of like when I count by four's it's
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: like four, eight, twelve, sixteen, twenty twenty four, like it's
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: it was a country song they goes twenty eight, you know,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: twenty eight thirty two. That's fun. Yahoo. So I can't
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: count past thirty two because I end up with that's fun.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Yeahoo, thirty six forty forty four.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: No, oh good, Okay, I had no idea. I just
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: learned that.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: But yeah, exactly right. Is this this idea of creating
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: sort of rhythm. And I think poets will play with
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: the cadence and the syllabication of their sentences a lot,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: and they will use in part they they're very deliberate
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: in choosing the words because they want to create a
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: pattern to the delivery of those words. And sometimes they rhyme,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: but sometimes they're depending more on the pattern than the
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: sounds that they want to have sort of a sort
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: of like a delivery of how the words the syllable
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: line up in particular ways, and they'll set the stress
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: on those syllables in different places to have a pronounced effect.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: So part of I think intentional writing can involve how
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: you want the pattern and musicality of a sentence to
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: come across so that it resonates or doesn't or lands
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: in a particular way with your audience. So I think
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: one more thing here is there's also kind of an
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: element that because the pattern starts to reveal itself by
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the cadence, and because of how it's presented, you might
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: be able to guess how it's going to end. That like,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: as you get to the first part of the sentence
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: and you start to get to the second part of
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: the sentence where the anti metabolize, sort of the transverse
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: order is it sort of foreshadows and sets up the payoff.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: And actually, I think the longer it is, the more
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: likely you start to be able to predict that payoff earlier,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and possibly the more impactfully it might land. We have
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: an example a little bit later of like a pretty
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: long and demetabolie and we'll see if you can start
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: to think about how it's about to end. And I
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: think that that ability to start to detect, like I
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: see where this is now going. I bet this is
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: about how it's going to end. That can have this
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: kind of ooh, feel good, aha sort of moment, right
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: like sometimes we've heard like people can predict in our cadence.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: We're about to set up an ad All right, we're back.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: We've been mostly at this point describing the ways that
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: we think we would apply our understanding of behavior and
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: learning and behavior change to why anti metaboli would have
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: the effect that it has of sounding truthy and sticking
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: in your memory and having sort of an emotional payoff
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: to it, and then we did an ad Yes.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: We did so, kind of getting back to the topic
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: a hand, right. We felt that it was important to
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: talk about this because this is a way that people
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: try to manipulate you. I mean, this is a really
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: you see this kind of in sales, where like people
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: can like you know, say some phrase and it'll actually
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: stick with you and then that will become the mantra
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: for whatever that product is they're selling. And you'll see
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: what we mean when we get in on some of
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: these other examples. But people will convince you to start
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: accepting their arguments because they say things in such a
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: way that they sound profound, or sound unique, or sound important,
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: seem to offer some insight, and then appeal to your emotions.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: You can find that you go from being unconvinced of
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: starting to be persuaded and see the appeal to their
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: rhetoric simply because it sounds like it makes sense and
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: it's snappy.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I think back to one of
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: the ones that really stood out to me here was
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Ronald Riggins like, the East and the West do not
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: mistrust each other because we're armed. We're armed because we
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: mistrust each other and think like, oh, yeah, he's right, Yeah,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I got this. Yeah, and I think, you know, reflecting
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: on it, when you start to break it apart, I
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: would actually say like, no, I think you're kind of
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: just a dick who likes to kill people.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: What it comes down to. The first part actually was right. Yeah, yeah,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: we missed trust each other as we're armed, and you're like,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: if I see someone pointing a gun at me, I'm like, well,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: I don't mistrust you because you're pointing a gun at me.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: You're pointing a gun at me because I mistrust you. Like, no,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: that's not right, No, that's not that's not that's not
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: how that works. You're pointing a gun at me because
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: you're a bad person.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, and quit doing that.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Just being antimatabolic as we mentioned before, and I want
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: to make sure we do land on this just being
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: an anti metaboli, Like just phrasing it that way doesn't
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: mean it's wrong. Some of these are good advice, some
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: of these are reasonable criticisms, some of these are insightful observations.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: But it's just worth knowing when this is being employed.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: It is a rhetorical technique designed to persuade one way
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: or another, or sometimes you know, entertained. But I think
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: that persuasion is a very frequent employment of anti metaboliti,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and it can be correct to do this, or it
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: can be incorrect to do this. But just as you said,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: you said this is exactly right at the beginning. The
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: important part here is you can recognize that it's happening
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: and start to weigh the merit for yourself. You can
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: sort of you can interpret for yourself what am I
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: being sold here?
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Is there something I'm like what they say make sense?
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: I agree with it? Or are they trying to just
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: like pull one over on me and sort of make
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: me believe something I actually would otherwise have disagreed with.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: And that's really it is, like, just be a little
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: bit better armed to hear this and have a critical
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: reaction to it.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So with all that being said, here's some fun
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: ones that you'll hear and go like, let's do this.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Before we kind of get into it, I would like
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: to task everybody with thinking about how these, how you
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: would respond to these, or what these make you think?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Now that you know what an anti metaboli is right.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Like when you hear these phrases, go oh yeah, like
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: you could see how it could be twisted, or like
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I just want you to think about this. Okay. Yeah,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So the first one is cheap fish ain't good, but
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: good fish ain't cheap.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, have language for knowledge and knowledge for language.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, here's a good one. If you fail
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: to plan, you plan to fail. That's a fortune cookie.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Also not bad advice, like generally better to like it's
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: like I'm like, okay, yeah, I think that. Actually that's
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: a good way to have like a thing stuck in
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: your mind. That's like, hold on, have I actually thought
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: this through yet?
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Hey sure, sure you can hear that and go I
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: need to actually like like that could be associated with oh,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna make my schedule for the week.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, exactly should I vote for Donald Trump? Do
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: you plan? And you're like, no, that was that was
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: a bad plan. Yeah, you failed failed because you plan
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: to fail by not planning and executing poorly, and now
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: we've failed. All right. Another one, eat to live, don't
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: live to eat. That's sort of the live to work,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: don't work to live sort of thing, or work to Yeah,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: don't live to work that sort of thing, but reversed
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: for food.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, here's a really good one. I'm sure lots
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: of people have heard. It's not the size of the
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: dog in the fight, the size of the fight and
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: the dog.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Do you know who that one was?
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know off on my head.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: It's not the size of the dog in the fight.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: It's the size of the fight and the.
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: Dog it is. See, I messed up. I messed up.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I should have known that one because I just do
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: his accent all the time. But you know, it's funny,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: like you think about it, You're like, that is motivational
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: in the way that you go, oh yeah, yeah, it's
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: about like not giving up. It's about willpower. It's about like,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: you know, keeping its persistence. You know, like, yeah, but
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: it's not. But it's it's more snappy to have a
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: mantra than it is to go you should persist when
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: things are tough, right, It's not how tough it is,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: it's how you should persist when you're having a hard time.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It has the poetic musicality to it, with the
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: with the cadence and everything.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: So especially with that accent.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: So true, so true. This one. I don't remember who
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: this is attributed to, but I actually do really like
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: this one. I think that it again could be way
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: over generalized. And the problem with this one, as you said,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: I wanted people to think about this on their own,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: but I'm just gonna say what my thought of the
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: is like. Although I like this, I think this could
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: be like it actually has no merit because it could
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: be applied to anyone in any context and not actually
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: have anything to say, Like it is true no matter
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: who you say it about, and it is also false
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: no matter who you say it about. Right, so right,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: But it is kind of clever the way that it's
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: set up. So this is those who know aren't talking
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: and those who don't know are talking.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Right. You can see how it's both true and false
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: depending on lots of things.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: I feel like it describes news anchors a lot, though,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: like oh my god, the ones who do commentary, like
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: that's John Carlson.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, also loose title of news anchor for the bow
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: tie wearing piece of shit. Yeah all right, let us
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: to negotiate. Okay, So I think those are you know,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: when we talk about this. I think I'm reading the
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Art of logic right now, and I think that does
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: this really great job of kind of unpacking things like this, right,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: which is there's effectively in that statement there are two
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: different problems. Right, let us never negotiate out of fear,
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: which means that like we should never be co werced
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: into negotiating in certain circumstances, like we should be going
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: to the table to negotiate, or like avoiding coersive situations, right,
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: but we should never be afraid to take the steps
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: to negotiate, which is a different context or different set
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: of circumstances. Like that statement just tells you it's just
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: two different problems that we're looking at.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That one is one where I'm like, yeah,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I think it sounds more profound than it actually is
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: when you start to break it down like that.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: The next one, we shape our buildings and afterwards our
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: buildings shape us.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Huh sure, yeah, yeah, all right, all right, I like it.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: This next one I think is good for see if
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: you can figure out the second half before you've fully
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: gotten way through it. So I'd say pause in the middle.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: See if I mean you can obviously see it, but
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: for our listeners get a little posts see if they
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: can get it.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so should you believe the man because you
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: like the promise he made? All right? Think about that,
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: or the promise because you like the man who made it?
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: There you go exactly.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: I actually do like that one. I feel like that
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: one's yeah, a more insightful sort of comment.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a good way of going. You know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: are you biased essentially is what that's saying.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's basically like, is he making you promises so
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: you believe him? Or you like him? And so you
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: believe his promises?
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Right right?
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Exactly like what's happening here? Yeah, and either way be
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: more skeptical, yes, yes, yes, yes, And of course the
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: last one here that you've probably heard, but mean what
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: you say and say what you mean, which I think
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: is a song lyric somewhere.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like it.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: And you can actually switch that one around so you
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: could say say what you mean and mean what you say.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: It works both ways.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Too, So yeah, it's effective either way, not.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Pen not pen All right, Well, I think that's what
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: I have to say about anti metabolia right now, And
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: again you're just now more well informed about what is
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: going on in the world of rhetoric, things happening to
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: your ears and your mind. Yes, and we managed to
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: stretch this out to a full length discussion, which when
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: I initially started putting this together, I wasn't sure we'd
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: be able to do that. But it's a skill. It's
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: a skill. Cool that we can wrap this up in
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: a reasonable amount of time as well. Sometimes it feels
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: a little rushed. We were like, oh, we can so long,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: we need to close it out, but we did it. Okay.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Is there anything you would like to say or anything
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: that I forgot before we start transitioning to our credits
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: and recommendations and whatnot.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Look out for our next episode on anti hyperbole. I
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: don't know. I just I just like saying OBOI or
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: anything like that. So I think there's just something really
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: fasting about understanding literary devices and understanding how language is
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: used and to elicit and like evoke certain responses and thoughts,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: and how there are just some authors that are so
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: proficient and so effective at doing it. And I think
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: you know, if you are a reader, like a voracious reader,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: or like Stephen Kings as a concert reader, like it's
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: really cool to kind of see if you can notice
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: that inside of some of the literature that you do read.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, I agree, And I think we didn't
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: really get into this too much. But this is my
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: and be a topic for another day. But there is
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: like evidence that shows with this whole repetition thing, because
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: we again we said, like that's an important variable in here.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: There is evidence that shows that the more times you
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: hear something, the more you start to believe it, even
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: if you know it's false, right, even if you know
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: it's wrong, you will like start to buy it just
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: because you hear it over and over again. And so
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: there's there's like this aspect of repetition that is very
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: important tonight. And I think again it does play. It
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: starts to play a role in the anti metabola, although
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: it's so short, it's like it's a relatively minimum one,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: but it is there, Like it's still more than just
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: saying it once, you know, just hearing just the first
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: diverse part or just some other delivery that doesn't have
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: the cadence and repetition to it. But all right, well,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: if you're joining us for the first time, you may
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: not know this, but at the end of our discussions,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: we recommend some things and they're usually unrelated to our topic,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: but just fun things we like to recommend. So we
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: will do that. We have some credits to get through,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: and I think we'll throw in one more ad for
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: the heck of it and then do that.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, why not? Just for fun?
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, we are going to transition to some recommendations, but
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: first I would like to say, if you enjoyed what
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: you heard in this discussion, or you just like the
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: sounds of our voices or whatever, you feel like you'd
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: like to support us. You can do that by heading
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: over to Patreon. If you pledge a little bit of
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: money every month to help us keep doing a podcast,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: you get some extra content early episodes, add free content,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and at the end of our
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: full length discussions, I will shout you out for being
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: just a wonderful person to really help us continue to
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: be a podcast. So with that in mind fulfilling on
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: that exact promise, I would like to shout out and
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: give a very heartfelt welcome thank you to the following
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: people who have been patron supporters of ours. Thank you,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Mike m Megan, Mike T. Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Charlie for just continuing to really help us
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: do our thing. We really appreciate you.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, you're the best.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Otherwise you can support us, so you can leave us
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: a rating and a review. You can tell a friend
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: like subscribe. All of those things do help get the
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: word out. Just grab a friend's phone and subscribe for
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: them and they'll be like, Wow, you really are a
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: good friend for subscribing to such a great podcast on
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: my behalf and it'll bring you that much closer together. Yes, anyway,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: I cannot make this podcast without my team of people
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: writing and fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: for recording with me today.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Shane, Hey, thanks for having me. This is great. Yeah.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: who stitches together all of the beeps and bloops and
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: blurbs and half constructed comments and coughing and all of
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: what you don't hear and then it results in a podcast,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: and that's Justin. And thank you Justin for your emperorness
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: and wonderfulness.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: We'd love you.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Got Emperor, Justin, Got Emperor Justin. That's a good one,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: all right, and of course thank you to everyone for listening.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: We really need to have listeners or else what are
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: we doing here, you know, just talking into my crophones
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: at each other, which is fun but still.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Just standard fair for middle aged white dudes at this point.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: So it kind of is actually kind of is. At
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: least we're not doing the alt right crazy conservative thing
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: that so many other people of our profile are doing yet.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: No, I'm just kidding. No, No, we'll never get there.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: That'll be the day.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Huh, yeah that happens. Just know that we were kidnapped.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Please know that.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, someone is holding a gun to our head. Yeah yeah, yeah,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: all right, let's transition to recommendations.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Oh I'm so glad recommendations.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: I'm recommending a thing I recommending. I'm not getting many
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: to learn ASL. I have spent the last five or
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: six weeks maybe more, practicing ASL every day. There is
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: a couple of YouTube channels I really like. There's a
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: couple of webs sites I really like, ares an app
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: that I use. I'm putting in just a two of
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: those in the links here, but if you want more,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: feel free to reach out and I'll send you all
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: the other stuff I found that I've enjoyed. I have
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: some people who also know ASL who practice with me
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: intermittently and periodically, but mostly I just use the tools
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: that are available to me to just you know, practice
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit. And I don't know that I could
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: be very effective in a conversation yet, but if I
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: was with someone who needed to sign and they signed
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: very slowly, I'd be able to follow most of what
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: they said at this point. And it has just been
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: such a joy. I love this language. I love learning it.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: I love learning new things that set it aside. But
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: it's also cool, it's intuitive, it's efficient, and I just
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed the whole experience. So I very strongly
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: recommend learning ASL, And honestly, like like I said, I
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: just every day I pick up the app, I go
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: through the daily lesson. When I have some downtime, I
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: pull up some YouTube videos and I just sort of
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: practice along with them. And I've I've improved a tremendous
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: amount over the last month or so of doing this,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: even though, like I said, I'm not actually having conversations regularly,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: I do think I'd be able to navigate most interactions
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: at this point, if they could happen again, if it
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: went slowly, I could do it, which makes me feel
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: better about, you know, just my ability to interact with
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: more people in the world. So I think ASL is
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: very cool and I strong recommend. One website I'll direct
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: you to is called lifeprint dot com. This is a
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: guy who has like videos and has like just an
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: index of words that you can look up and he's
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: he's just great. So but there's other YouTube videos and
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: apps and stuff out there. So anyway, learn ASL.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I second that one because that one's so great
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: and ASL is so fun to learn, so and it's
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: super portable.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: It is very portable.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, I'm gonna recommend something that is also
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: uses your hands, but maybe not in as constructive a way.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: So I went and saw Mortal Kombat too. I gotta say,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: if you like the video game and you like dumb movies,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: it's great. It is absolutely like everything you want out
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: of a Mortal Kombat movie. It's it's just ridiculous. It's
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: over the top. The fight choreography is beautiful. Every character
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: gets a moment to shine, which is really wonderful. I
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: think it's a lot of fun. So it's just it's
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: exactly what you want out of a Mortal Kombat movie.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: It touches on the lore, it doesn't require a lot
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: of thinking. You just get to have fun with it. Yeah,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: strong recommend on that one. It's so so fun. And
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Carl Urban is great as Johnny Cage. He's excellent as
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Johnny Cage.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: I love I love ca Erban. I'm so excited to
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: see this. I'm really looking forward to it. So I'm
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: glad that you had a positive experience because I really,
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: you know, you never know what to expect from sequels,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: and I was not totally sure they would pull off
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: the same level of fun and whimsical nonsense that they
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: did in the first movie, and it sounds like they did,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: so I'm very eager to check it out myself.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, it's a good time.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Our two recommendations are Learning asl and Mortal Kombat to
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: the movie, and probably also the video game, but definitely
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: the movie. And I think that I think that's what
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: we have to say about that. Anything you have that
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: did or that I missed that before we wrap.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: Up nothing on my end, I think that covers it perfect.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: This is Abraham and it's Shane.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: We're out to Yep, you've been listening to Why We
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Do What We Do.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: going to WWD WWD.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.