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Mental Health at Work - What We Are All Getting Wrong · Humanity Working

0:07
SPEAKER_03: This mindset shift we really need to make is that somehow we have to we have to trade off financial uh viability of an organization for human viability of an organization.
0:20
SPEAKER_03: And yet every single research study that's ever been done shows that healthy humans drive healthy business.
0:26
SPEAKER_03: So if we think that we have to have unhealthy humans in order to achieve our goals, we aren't doing it right, and it's definitely not going to be sustainable.
0:36
SPEAKER_04: All right, today I'm really excited to be joined by Dr.
0:39
SPEAKER_04: Alessandria Politzi.
0:41
SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the podcast, Al.
0:42
SPEAKER_04: Thanks, Paul.
0:43
SPEAKER_04: So first a little bit about Al.
0:45
SPEAKER_04: Dr.
0:46
SPEAKER_04: Politzi is a former HR executive and she's now the CEO of Verdant Consulting, a top 20 workplace wellness provider of 2022.
0:54
SPEAKER_04: She's the ISO global liaison for occupational health and safety.
0:58
SPEAKER_04: She also serves as an expert on psychological health and safety for professional organizations, media, and the National Safety Council.
1:05
SPEAKER_04: She's recently published the Workplace Mental Health Strategy Workbook designed to help companies proactively address this issue.
1:12
SPEAKER_04: Oh, and before we get into the topic today in any detail, I've got a quick plug for you.
1:16
SPEAKER_04: Alan and I are going to be co-presenting a deep dive on some of these topics in a live session we've got coming up.
1:22
SPEAKER_04: Anyone can join the session and it's on May 22nd at 12 p.m.
1:26
SPEAKER_04: Eastern.
1:26
SPEAKER_04: That's May 22nd at 12 p.m.
1:29
SPEAKER_04: Eastern.
1:29
SPEAKER_04: Now we're going to be publicizing it a lot, but if you'd like an invite to attend, or if you've just got any questions for us, just email us at info at humanityworking.net.
1:39
SPEAKER_04: That's info at humanityworking.net.
1:43
SPEAKER_04: That's a lot of housekeeping.
1:44
SPEAKER_04: So let's get into it, Al.
1:45
SPEAKER_04: There's a lot we could be diving into, but I think I want to start with the very designation of mental health and mental health in the workplace.
1:52
SPEAKER_04: I remember listening a couple of years ago to a discussion about what people think of when they hear the term physical health and what they think of when they hear the term mental health.
2:04
SPEAKER_04: It does conjure up pretty different images for many people.
2:07
SPEAKER_04: Why do you think that is?
2:09
SPEAKER_03: Because we're afraid of our feelings.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: But um just said simply.
2:14
SPEAKER_03: I think but we're going through a transition uh about this globally, Paul.
2:18
SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, in 2008, Australia, as you may know, um they passed legislation that made uh psychologically abusive workplaces illegal and required that organizations uh track what are called the psychosocial hazards or hazards that can impact your mental health.
2:38
SPEAKER_03: And so the transition is changing from uh where we saw physical health 50 years ago as an individual responsibility, no matter if they were injured on the job or not.
2:50
SPEAKER_03: Um now, 50 years later, uh we're starting to see globally the perception that organizations are as responsible for any psychological health injuries that happen as a result of work and are responsible for protecting their workers' health, both physically and psychologically.
3:09
SPEAKER_04: All right, I want to jump in on something that you said right off the bat there, because I think that's gonna be a surprise to a lot of people.
3:15
SPEAKER_04: Um, you mentioned that in Australia um that it is basically effectively illegal to have a workplace that is not psychologically safe.
3:25
SPEAKER_04: So I think I've had a conversation with this about with several people recently, and the first question that they have associated with that is how is that even possible?
3:36
SPEAKER_04: Right?
3:37
SPEAKER_04: So I know that you've done a lot of work on this.
3:40
SPEAKER_04: So explain.
3:42
SPEAKER_03: Well, first of all, let's just pause on that.
3:44
SPEAKER_03: Let's just let's just tease that apart.
3:46
SPEAKER_03: The fact that we think it's impossible to have a workplace that's not psychologically healthy or safe is in and of itself the problem.
3:54
SPEAKER_03: So somehow we have created a world in which you almost have to be abused in order to, I don't know, be worthy of compensation in some way.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: And so how they've done it is through science.
4:06
SPEAKER_03: We have decades, almost a hundred years worth of research on what causes people to burn out, um, have anxiety, increased uh risk of depression and other uh damage as a result of the workplace.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: This has been studied very clearly for a while.
4:24
SPEAKER_03: And we know there are approximately 12 what are called psychosocial hazards.
4:28
SPEAKER_03: The World Health Organization lists those, the Australian standard, the Canadian standard, and of course the ISO standard all list these.
4:37
SPEAKER_03: And so they're known hazards that have been shown to increase the likelihood of uh psychological distress.
4:45
SPEAKER_03: Uh, just like we know, um ergonomics is important for us not getting repetitive injury.
4:52
SPEAKER_03: You know, if you would have told that to someone 100 years ago, they would have thought that was laughable.
4:56
SPEAKER_03: Why would a company be responsible for how you sit at your desk, right?
5:01
SPEAKER_03: But yet uh they see the benefit to having healthy workers.
5:05
SPEAKER_03: And so if we think about health as total health, which includes our bodies and minds, uh there are impacts that happen as a result of work that can be either prevented or mitigated.
5:19
SPEAKER_03: And that's the requirement in Australia.
5:21
SPEAKER_04: Got it.
5:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, I think I think part of the challenge here, at least for in a lot of people's minds about this stuff, is that is how often apparently invisible some of these some of these things are.
5:32
SPEAKER_04: There's an amazing statistic that you uh that you call out in your in the book.
5:38
SPEAKER_04: 75% of employees witness bullying and 20% of workers report being bullied at work, 20% report being bullied at work.
5:45
SPEAKER_04: So it makes you wonder what the uh what the actual number is.
5:48
SPEAKER_04: I can tell you that in uh you know in my past I was bullied at work, I never reported it.
5:53
SPEAKER_04: So uh and and I'm sure there are uh there are I'm sure I'm sure there are many uh many people that did not.
5:59
SPEAKER_04: Um and you put a cost in there as well, the cost being 2.6 trillion trillion dollars.
6:07
SPEAKER_04: Um so there is this uh aspect of I don't know, if you like, almost ubiquity to it, which you point which you point out, which is sort of ingrained in our uh in in an opinions that we have about this stuff.
6:20
SPEAKER_04: And then I suppose there's the other aspect of this, which is uh how for many people this is uh something that is uh happening on a individual basis, and it could be a relationship between an uh individual employee and an individual boss or of an employee and a coworker, and it's happening in some cases behind closed doors, and it's not it doesn't look the same as when somebody breaks your leg, right?
6:46
SPEAKER_04: So there is this sort of like uh how do you legislate for something that is in is in so many cases invisible or close to invisible?
6:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, um you know many physical ailments are also invisible to the human eye.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: That's true, um, right?
7:05
SPEAKER_03: So you don't necessarily see cancer or um cardiovascular disease or even muscle strain, which um interestingly, uh 30% of muscle skeletal injury on the job, according to OSHA, is a result of the lack of psychological safety.
7:21
SPEAKER_03: So, in other words, if I don't ask if for help because I don't want to look weak um and then I become injured, or uh we have an unreasonable workload, so I'm rushing through things, I'm more highly likely to become injured.
7:34
SPEAKER_03: So we see uh physical injury as a result of the lack of psychological safety as well.
7:41
SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, it's kind of like the conversation we have around harassment and um other behavior-based uh requirements within the workplace.
7:52
SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know it when you when you see it.
7:54
SPEAKER_03: Um but there are measures.
7:56
SPEAKER_03: So that is actually one of the number one questions that I get uh when I mention to people what I do is well, how in the heck are you going to measure that?
8:05
SPEAKER_03: And easily because we know what the hazards are.
8:08
SPEAKER_03: Just like, so for example, I can measure the number of of the risk of physical injury um based on uh how many ladders are used at a work site.
8:20
SPEAKER_03: Um does that mean I have to wait for someone to fall and uh become physically harmed before I do anything?
8:26
SPEAKER_03: No, because I can put these measures into place that are preventative and proactive.
8:32
SPEAKER_03: And the other piece that is this mindset shift we really need to make is that somehow we have to we have to trade off financial uh viability of an organization for human viability of an organization.
8:47
SPEAKER_03: And yet every single research study that's ever been done shows that healthy humans drive healthy business.
8:54
SPEAKER_03: So if we think that we have to have unhealthy humans in order to achieve our goals, we aren't doing it right, and it's definitely not going to be sustainable.
9:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and you bring up a point which actually is sort of where I'd love to take this conversation, right?
9:08
SPEAKER_04: This, as far as you're concerned, this is really an issue of health and safety, right?
9:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:16
SPEAKER_03: It's a health and safety issue, it's an it's a leadership issue.
9:19
SPEAKER_03: And when I say leadership issue, I want to be really clear because I have a slightly nuanced perspective around leadership.
9:26
SPEAKER_03: This is not to shame leaders for being terrible.
9:29
SPEAKER_03: And we know that 83% of them, according to Gallup, are.
9:32
SPEAKER_03: So this is to say we don't equip leaders with the skills to navigate this terrain.
9:38
SPEAKER_03: And spoiler alert, the ones who have the most mental health risk are the leaders.
9:44
SPEAKER_03: The higher up you go, the more likely it is that you've developed some kind of psychological injury.
9:51
SPEAKER_03: And in fact, one study showed that about 78% of people VP and above have a mental health issue or a symptom of a mental health issue.
10:01
SPEAKER_03: And the fact of that data isn't necessarily that that's pretty darn surprising.
10:06
SPEAKER_03: It's that it's not surprising to most people I share it with.
10:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:12
SPEAKER_03: Somehow we feel like that's acceptable.
10:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, that's that checks out, and this is totally working.
10:20
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and you bring out this um, there's a piece I love in the book.
10:23
SPEAKER_04: It's it's called A Dangerous Past Changes in Workplace Safety.
10:28
SPEAKER_04: And and what you do there is you kind of uh point out uh significant dates um as to uh as to when pieces of legislation have effectively been uh passed in the in the way in the uh the realm of health and safety.
10:43
SPEAKER_04: And uh as you get towards uh um the year 2000, as you get towards, for example, 1999 is uh is where this uh uh stress at work research was published, and uh and 1999 is with uh is the publication of the of the uh ISO 18001 standard, which was um for those of people that know this field will know that that was uh republished as uh ISO 45001.
11:10
SPEAKER_04: Um it's uh it's a really interesting reminder that I'm gonna say something that's pretty obvious I I think here, but the work and workplace conditions are not the same as they always were, and that they are con uh and that they are continuously evolving.
11:27
SPEAKER_04: Um and so I think when you look that you look through that, you see kind of the logical place that this this follows in terms of our um of putting this more front and center.
11:40
SPEAKER_04: But interestingly, it's also true, you point this out as well, that it's not just for the last five or ten years or twenty years that people have been thinking about the psychological problems and the psychological health of a of a workforce.
11:58
SPEAKER_04: Um you have a you have a quote by Henry Metcalf in there from 1927.
12:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:03
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's crazy, isn't it?
12:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
12:06
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
12:07
SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, I love to look at, we've been talking about this for a hundred years, right?
12:12
SPEAKER_03: And and and again, the spoiler alert, we see that higher performance from businesses that have healthier workers.
12:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so what does that mean?
12:21
SPEAKER_03: That that means that they're healthy in both body and mind.
12:24
SPEAKER_03: And um, that does not mean that we are coddling people.
12:27
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean that people don't want to work, it doesn't mean we're lowering the bar.
12:31
SPEAKER_03: The opposite is true.
12:33
SPEAKER_03: People want to do good work, they are like to be productive.
12:37
SPEAKER_03: In fact, one of the data points I like to share on that is that there is a bigger risk to our mental health than burnout, and it's called bore out.
12:45
SPEAKER_03: So being bored is actually more detrimental to our mental health than being overworked and burnt out.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: Because as humans, we enjoy achieving, we enjoy creating, we enjoy challenges and overcoming challenges.
13:00
SPEAKER_03: Those are things that we seek out.
13:02
SPEAKER_03: Now, you know, we can talk about capitalism and what it's done to our sense of what worth is, but it's a different conversation for a different time.
13:10
SPEAKER_03: However, um, the belief that somehow people are inherently lazy is not actually proven out in any of the research or data.
13:19
SPEAKER_04: All right, related to that, then let's bust a myth.
13:23
SPEAKER_04: Young people today are lazy and weak.
13:28
SPEAKER_04: Disgust.
13:30
SPEAKER_03: I think I listed a quote um that was from um I think the 1800s regarding um people not wanting to work in mines.
13:41
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, there's this perception that there's another one that that um I think is is worth exploring, which is well, no one ever did this to me and I'm okay.
13:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:50
SPEAKER_03: Well, you might be okay, but you're not as good as you could be.
13:54
SPEAKER_03: And and the other, here's the the question I love to ask executives is to tell me when you've done your best work.
14:01
SPEAKER_03: And I the reason I ask that question is to the person, they never talk about when they made the most money, they never talked about when they had the best title.
14:10
SPEAKER_03: What they talk about is when my boss trusted me.
14:14
SPEAKER_03: I felt valued.
14:15
SPEAKER_03: I worked with a team where we we we trusted each other and depended on each other.
14:20
SPEAKER_03: They talk about their feelings right away.
14:23
SPEAKER_03: Right away with their feelings when I asked when you did your best work.
14:26
SPEAKER_03: And so what we are trying to do is help most people do their best work on most days.
14:32
SPEAKER_03: And what we see is that is more productive and more effective for businesses across innovation, performance, uh, quality, customer service.
14:43
SPEAKER_03: You tell me the you tell me the metric, I can tell you how having healthy workers helps you achieve it.
14:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:50
SPEAKER_04: So we haven't really we we've talked about this as a uh as a workplace safety issue.
14:56
SPEAKER_04: I guess the that when we're thinking this thing through, there's probably a misconception that we kind of need to break through, which is there are many organizations, I think many organizations out there right now that if you ask them a question as to whether they prioritize the mental health of their employees, uh they would answer in the affirmative.
15:17
SPEAKER_04: And the reason that they would answer in the affirmative would be because uh they have an employee access uh assistance program, EAP, um that um provides people potentially with, I don't know, free mental health benefits or access to uh to counseling or or some or you know, even a psychologist or psychiatrist.
15:39
SPEAKER_04: Um maybe they worked with their related to that, but maybe they've worked with the insurance company to make sure that those benefits are prioritized and all that kind of stuff.
15:48
SPEAKER_04: And in addition to that, maybe they've uh instituted some some really strong policies inside the company that allow people to speak up against things like when they are being bullied in the workplace and so on and so forth.
16:01
SPEAKER_04: Um but what I'm getting from what I'm getting from the discussion here is that uh that's not the whole story.
16:11
SPEAKER_04: So can you talk a little bit about that?
16:14
SPEAKER_03: Well, so um one, my as you mentioned in the beginning, I used to be a chief people officer.
16:20
SPEAKER_03: And um when I was a CPO, um I was I was working in the veterinary industry, which is the fourth highest uh industry for death by suicide.
16:30
SPEAKER_03: And in fact, my first week on the job, we had um one of our team members um threatening to end her life, and we had to intervene, um, which was new for me.
16:41
SPEAKER_03: I had just come from working in craft beer.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: So, um and before that, Slurpees.
16:46
SPEAKER_03: So um, this was all new for me.
16:48
SPEAKER_03: And um, so I quickly became QPR certified.
16:51
SPEAKER_03: So I know what I did as a CPO.
16:53
SPEAKER_03: I would not do that today.
16:54
SPEAKER_03: And what I did as a CPO is I doubled down on my EAP, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_03: And I um raised awareness around our EAP because I only was focusing on people in crisis.
17:06
SPEAKER_03: The problem with only focusing on people in crisis is it's the same thing as only going to the doctor when you're having a heart attack.
17:13
SPEAKER_03: So if we think about health and safety and as both psychological and physical, we want to proactively uh implement what the World Health Organization um rolled out in 2022, which is we want to prevent injury as a result of the workplace, which means we make sure that the ways in which we're working are healthy.
17:34
SPEAKER_03: We want to equip people with skills to navigate challenges, which most people don't learn outside of the workplace, and then we want to support people when they're in crisis.
17:42
SPEAKER_03: But those first two things need to happen because mental health is a continuum and we all have it.
17:49
SPEAKER_03: We all have mental health needs, um, and we all have uh we all have the ability to uh learn new skills to help us navigate challenges.
17:58
SPEAKER_03: So what I would say, and the reason I actually wrote the book was I see a lot of my HR brothers and sisters putting solutions in place without a strategy.
18:07
SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's fine.
18:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, I did it too.
18:09
SPEAKER_03: I we we implemented uh an app solution, I won't mention the the brand, um, as part of our support for our practices, and it had very little impact, which has been shown to be the case.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: Um but what I didn't have was a strategy around workplace mental health.
18:25
SPEAKER_03: And so when I can think about well, what if I look at holistically, then I can become preventative, I can embed it in how we work, and I can therefore have better outcomes that are tied back to the business.
18:37
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and there's a few stats that you call out that I think really kind of illustrate exactly what you're talking, what you're talking about.
18:43
SPEAKER_04: You mentioned that um it takes seven to eight years on average for people to seek help.
18:49
SPEAKER_04: So if you think about the impact on your business, just purely like if you take away the sort of human aspect of this, the human or tragedy of this, frankly, if you take even that away, just think about that idea that seven to eight years before you seek help, that's seven to eight years of suboptimal performance from those people.
19:07
SPEAKER_04: Two out of three people never seek the help.
19:09
SPEAKER_03: No, no, they don't.
19:10
SPEAKER_03: And in certain um populations, communities, the stigma is so strong that they it's even less likely that they would seek it, right?
19:18
unknown: Yeah.
19:18
SPEAKER_03: Um also there's been research that psychological health and safety unlocks some of the benefits of the work that people are already doing.
19:26
SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.
19:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, it has shown that um I am less likely to speak up in uh the workplace as a diverse member of that population if I don't have psychological safety.
19:40
SPEAKER_03: So psychological safety increases the likelihood that this hard-won talent actually is uh feels comfortable speaking up, um, which in my mind reflects inclusion and belonging.
19:51
SPEAKER_03: Uh, so without that, they're less likely to participate.
19:55
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21:27
SPEAKER_04: So on the topic of different uh cultures, let's think about a little bit about the the US compared, for example, to other countries.
21:35
SPEAKER_04: You we started this conversation with uh your discussion about what's happening in uh Australia.
21:40
SPEAKER_04: I know even the US picture isn't is not uh is not uniform.
21:44
SPEAKER_04: I know that there are different activities that are happening in different states and so on.
21:47
SPEAKER_04: Um and even there are dramatic differences in uptake of EAPs, for example, in different parts uh different parts of the United States.
21:54
SPEAKER_04: But there's a quote on the back of the book, which I think is really interesting, um, which is the United States Is at least a decade, maybe more, behind those who could be considered global leaders in addressing psychological health and safety.
22:06
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22:14
SPEAKER_03: So I love Dr.
22:16
SPEAKER_03: Daniels.
22:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so it is a uh it's a it's a great quote, but uh I'm curious as to as to what you think the why is behind that.
22:28
SPEAKER_04: Why is the US a decade or more behind those that could be considered uh global leaders in addressing psychological health and safety, particularly, particularly because uh the economic costs associated with that are so substantial.
22:42
SPEAKER_04: Why would the US be lagging in the way that it is?
22:47
SPEAKER_03: Um gosh, I wish I had a really crisp and uh bite-sized response to that.
22:52
SPEAKER_03: I don't.
22:53
SPEAKER_03: Um I can tell you what I've observed.
22:56
SPEAKER_03: So let's just talk about what's happened globally.
22:58
SPEAKER_03: So as I mentioned, Australia has their legislation in place since 2008.
23:02
SPEAKER_03: Um, same with um Canada.
23:05
SPEAKER_03: They have had their guidelines in place since the same time.
23:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, and a lot of the global standards are actually based on the Canadian standard that they implemented.
23:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, and the the World Health Organization and the International Labor Organization published their guidelines for workplace mental health in 2022, um, and then ISO, of course, did their standard in 2021.
23:27
SPEAKER_03: So globally, we're seeing this movement happening outside the United States.
23:32
SPEAKER_03: In the United States, we have um psychological safety uh legislation in process in 32 states, um, and it actually has gone to uh move forward the most in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, um which is probably not surprising.
23:49
SPEAKER_03: Um but what's my hypothesis on why we're behind?
23:54
SPEAKER_03: Well, no matter where you land on the political spectrum, you may have noticed that we've been a little distracted here in the United States.
24:03
SPEAKER_03: Um, and doing things together has not been a strong suit for us.
24:07
SPEAKER_03: We are not exactly as united as perhaps we have been in the past.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: So there's a there's a lot of things that are slipping behind as a result of that.
24:16
SPEAKER_03: I mean, think about the backlash happening right now when it comes to DEI, even in the United States.
24:22
SPEAKER_03: So there's a lot of um cultural transitions, I would call it, that have been happening here in the last, oh, you can put your finger on whenever, but uh, you know, we've been a little distracted.
24:36
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think also there's this kind of rugged individualism mindset, up by your bootstraps mindset, um tough it out mindset that makes talking about feelings scary and somehow the equivalent of needing to cry at work.
24:51
SPEAKER_03: I hear this a lot.
24:53
SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't want to have to talk about my feelings or about crying at work.
24:57
SPEAKER_03: And that's not what we're talking about at all.
24:59
SPEAKER_03: You never have to talk about your feelings.
25:00
SPEAKER_03: You never have to cry at work, you never have to open up about your childhood trauma in order to have a psychologically healthy workplace.
25:07
SPEAKER_03: What you do need is to be able to navigate your own stuff so that it doesn't blow up in the face of your team.
25:14
SPEAKER_03: What you do need is the ability to recognize when you're being activated and triggered so you don't have it negatively impact your team or yourself.
25:24
SPEAKER_03: And you do need to be able to recognize dysfunctional ways of working that hinder capacity and the ability for people to do their best work.
25:32
SPEAKER_03: None of that is about sharing um anything vulnerable.
25:37
SPEAKER_03: Uh it's that it's about understanding how humans are wired.
25:41
SPEAKER_04: So that sounds, I think probably for a lot of our listeners, that will sound something similar to um emotional intelligence.
25:50
SPEAKER_04: Um, but I know again that you that you would argue that it's it's not that that's not the whole picture either.
25:57
SPEAKER_04: So uh so talk about talk about that.
26:00
SPEAKER_04: Because for I think for a lot of people, they think if I if I understand what emotional intelligence is and if I can get in touch with my my own feelings, and maybe I don't know, I've done a half-hour course on it or something like that, then then suddenly all of this is problematic.
26:13
SPEAKER_03: So it was well, most people would say I don't want to do that because I'm afraid of what I might find.
26:17
SPEAKER_03: So that's the response I get about self-reflection from leaders.
26:21
SPEAKER_03: Um and um so I prefer emotional agility over emotional intelligence.
26:28
SPEAKER_03: Here's why.
26:29
SPEAKER_03: One, uh emotional intelligence assumes we all come from similar backgrounds where um we have the capacity to navigate things in a healthy way.
26:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, and we don't necessarily, trauma is pretty pervasive across various societies and communities.
26:46
SPEAKER_03: Um, in fact, two-thirds of the adult population in the United States had at least one traumatic childhood event, and as we know, that changes how our brains are structured.
26:56
SPEAKER_03: So I am not as much of a fan of emotional intelligence.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: I don't judge it.
27:01
SPEAKER_03: I lots of people in my affiliate group practice emotional intelligence, but I think we can do more than be intelligent about it.
27:08
SPEAKER_03: I think there's about being agile.
27:11
SPEAKER_03: And so in being agile, that means we understand that some days we feel bad.
27:16
SPEAKER_03: Some days uh are gonna be difficult.
27:19
SPEAKER_03: And so we know how to navigate those, not control them.
27:24
SPEAKER_04: And then I suppose related to that to a certain extent, that and strategies that leaders might adopt um might include um you call it relentless positivity.
27:38
SPEAKER_04: Oh god, that or some people might call it toxic positivity, but talk to me about that.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: Stop it right now.
27:45
SPEAKER_03: So, like um, I actually have a book on my shelf that somebody got me when I was a CPO called Chief Joy Officer.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: And I keep it up, I guess I know.
27:53
SPEAKER_03: So just remember all the happiness, and then we are like, oh, I'm happy.
27:57
SPEAKER_03: That's not the goal.
27:58
SPEAKER_03: Um, you don't learn as much when you're just happy all the time, and that's called a lobotomy.
28:04
SPEAKER_03: So um, I don't mean that in a strict scientifically, but anyway, my point being um that we are whole creatures, we are feeling creatures who also think we have lots of feelings, um, not just joy and not just happiness and not just anger.
28:19
SPEAKER_03: So getting to understand the very nuanced way in which we experience the world makes us healthier and better able to bounce back from challenges.
28:29
SPEAKER_03: This is why when we first started launching our programs, the first thing we launched was a resiliency training.
28:35
SPEAKER_03: Because there are skills that we need to know, especially as leaders, but even as individual contributors, about how we show up our self-verification, our biases, our self-criticism, and the opportunities to apply and employ these tactics that have been scientifically researched for decades to be more healthy and more productive.
28:55
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so building those skill sets, I call it how to human at work, um, there's really not another platform in which we can learn those skills.
29:04
SPEAKER_03: We're not taught how to operate our brains that that you know have evolved in 200,000 years to survive.
29:12
SPEAKER_03: And so instead we kind of white knuckle through it and then we kind of positive vibes only, and it's incredibly unhealthy.
29:20
SPEAKER_04: Um you mentioned obviously, you know, traumatic events that have happened in in people's lives.
29:24
SPEAKER_04: Well, we've all been through something that uh has been traumatic, and for many of us, extremely traumatic.
29:30
SPEAKER_04: People might have lost a family member.
29:32
SPEAKER_04: Um, children, of course, um, lost a whole bunch of in-person schooling.
29:36
SPEAKER_04: Um, and you know, in our work, we've been working increasingly with um educational institutions and talking to them about what is uh, you know, they can see the real data associated with this, they can see the grades, they can see you know, attendance, they can see, you know, all these various things that they can that they can measure, and they can see a significant shift that happened associated with COVID.
29:55
SPEAKER_04: But I'm curious, what have you seen in your work and what do you think it means for as we're working our way through the impact of COVID?
30:05
SPEAKER_04: What does it mean for the work uh for the measures that organizations need to take?
30:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so um what's interesting about things like the psychological health and safety standard, uh, which is ISO 45,003 for our ISO nerds, um, is that that started in 2019.
30:21
SPEAKER_03: It didn't have nothing to do with the pandemic.
30:23
unknown: Yeah.
30:23
SPEAKER_03: Um, it was developed agnostic of a global pandemic.
30:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, but there are things I think that are important for us to think about when it comes to the humans at work uh related to trauma.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: And I know that trauma is a scary word, and this isn't about asking people about their trauma.
30:40
SPEAKER_03: This is about being informed about the impact that trauma can have on our workplaces and our workers and how we can create uh workplaces that are healthier.
30:49
SPEAKER_03: Um, and those fall into a couple of buckets.
30:51
SPEAKER_03: Number one, during the pandemic, actually, the World Health Organization and CDC were talking about the second pandemic of a mental health crisis.
30:58
SPEAKER_03: This was early days, 2020, 2021, early, early, before we actually started to see this come to fruition.
31:05
SPEAKER_03: Because we know that people who experience natural disasters, and there's been tons of studies.
31:11
SPEAKER_03: My favorite, favorite one, one of the bigger ones is one that's uh looked at 64,000 survivors of different natural disasters.
31:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, things like the tsunami in Indonesia, the earthquake in Mexico City.
31:23
SPEAKER_03: And they saw that up to 40% of the population of people who experienced those natural disasters had PTSD symptoms up to two years following.
31:32
SPEAKER_03: Uh, when we started doing the research following the pandemic, my mother currently has COVID right now, actually.
31:38
SPEAKER_03: Um, we saw that about 35% of the US population was experiencing those post-traumatic symptoms.
31:45
SPEAKER_03: Um, and actually the biggest threat to our mental health is climate change.
31:51
SPEAKER_03: Because if we want to extend the natural disasters have a negative impact or put us at risk for that post-traumatic stress response, and natural disasters are exponentially increasing as a result of climate change, this is going to continue to grow and develop on the impact it will have on our employees and on our workplaces in general.
32:13
SPEAKER_03: Additionally, um, we have um an entire generation that had a traumatic childhood event called COVID.
32:22
SPEAKER_03: So as this next generation enters the workplace, 99.9% of them, as you said, from educators are already seeing this.
32:30
SPEAKER_03: I have friends who teach college, um, they are coming to the workplace with trauma.
32:35
SPEAKER_03: And the analogy I like to use when I teach this topic is if you've had a, if you here in the US, if you had a grandparent or relative who went through the Great Depression, we all have those stories of them saving the foil tins from the frozen dinners, right?
32:54
SPEAKER_03: Right.
32:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, because they have this mindset that was established when they were children.
32:59
SPEAKER_03: And so now we have 100% of the population that went through that.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: And so there are specific things we should know about how that shows up at work.
33:07
SPEAKER_03: Um, not that we have to give excuses for bad behavior or lower the standards or anything like that.
33:12
SPEAKER_03: It is more about um understanding it so that we can create ways of working that are more healthy and productive, quite frankly, for everyone, trauma informed or not.
33:22
SPEAKER_04: Now let's talk about a couple of other uh changes um and challenges that people are facing right now.
33:28
SPEAKER_04: Um so the the two that spring to mind are one uh work from anywhere, if you want to call it that, or the shift to flexible work styles, the shift out of a of a formal office setting and formal days and times when when people work.
33:43
SPEAKER_04: And then the second one, of course, um that's impacting a lot of people right now is the massively rapid adoption of AI.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: Um so in both of those cases, what we've seen through our work is that um it's these are adding to feelings in some c in some cases uh they're adding to feelings of like ambiguity in the workplace, and I don't know what success looks like, and I don't really understand how I'm gonna be successful as a human being, plus of course anxiety associated with the um, you know, with job security and all and all of that kind of stuff as well.
34:19
SPEAKER_04: Um we kind of break it down into what we call change fatigue and change anxiety.
34:23
SPEAKER_04: So change fatigue being like this is just tiring all the change, and change anxiety being I don't really know what it means for me, I don't really know what it means for my team or my organization, or something like that.
34:33
SPEAKER_04: So are you seeing similar things in uh in your work as well around those two issues?
34:39
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
34:40
SPEAKER_03: I mean, AI in and of itself, just by itself, is an existential crisis.
34:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:45
SPEAKER_03: Um in concert with climate change, it boy, it just keeps waiting, we keep piling on all of these challenges on our employees.
34:53
SPEAKER_03: And we don't have a work brain and an outside work brain.
34:56
SPEAKER_03: We have just the one brain.
34:57
SPEAKER_03: So all of these things, they come to work with us.
35:00
SPEAKER_03: And so they can be distractions, they can cause us to be more exhausted, they can um, you know, impact our ability to focus uh pretty heavily.
35:10
SPEAKER_03: And so I think if we're if we pretend like people can just shut it off or leave it at the door, that's not actually a real thing.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Um and so it definitely shows up at work.
35:21
SPEAKER_03: I think the other one is it's not just about work from anywhere, it's also this forced return to the office.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:27
SPEAKER_03: Um and the, you know, one of the one of the things that's considered a psychosocial hazard is the lack of choice and control.
35:36
SPEAKER_03: Um and so when you're being forced to work um in a place, especially if you've developed maybe some um neuroses around health and safety or germs or coughing or the things like that as a result of the pandemic, you know, these things can impact us.
35:53
SPEAKER_03: And quite frankly, the the demand to return to the office is not based on any data or any research about productivity or financial benefit.
36:02
SPEAKER_03: In fact, there's a woman also out of Australia who did a study looking at forced return to office and those who kept it open, and they saw the ones that kept it open had better financial returns, better glass door ratings.
36:14
SPEAKER_03: So it there's just no correlation.
36:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, but here we are.
36:19
SPEAKER_03: What it is, is it's being driven by fear and control.
36:22
SPEAKER_03: And fear and control is what has been the evolutionary directive for our brains on how do we stay safe.
36:31
SPEAKER_03: And so when we see those manifest in ways that are dysfunctional, like this, um, that's where boy, if we knew more about how our brains work, maybe we wouldn't be going in that direction.
36:42
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, beautifully said.
36:44
SPEAKER_04: And then you've touched um obviously a little bit on the climate crisis already in terms of the impact it will have of natural disasters, et cetera.
36:52
SPEAKER_04: But of course, particularly for younger people that are entering into the workforce right now and can effectively project forward, there is also uh in many cases some almost existential angst associated with um with that.
37:06
SPEAKER_04: Um and so um do you see differences in terms of how different generations are viewing that threat?
37:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's not just generational, it's also where where is my area focus?
37:17
SPEAKER_03: So your scientists, folks who are worked on working on climate, um, you know, climate change or uh climate justice um experience something called climate anxiety.
37:29
SPEAKER_03: Uh and uh it's becoming more and more of a threat to our mental health.
37:33
SPEAKER_03: Like I said, the World Health Organization considers climate change a mental health threat as much as it is a threat to other other parts of our lives.
37:42
SPEAKER_03: And so um again, this is not going to be going away.
37:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
37:48
SPEAKER_04: All right.
37:48
SPEAKER_04: I'll I want to finish this up with um something that's a little bit more forward-looking and hopefully a little bit more uh more upbeat, as it were.
37:56
SPEAKER_04: Um it's fascinating getting into the weeds and dealing with all the challenges.
38:03
SPEAKER_03: Let me let me hold on before we move on.
38:05
SPEAKER_03: So the good news is we're talking about this stuff now, right?
38:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:09
SPEAKER_03: We aren't gaslighting ourselves into thinking there's something wrong with me.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's the the the biggest response I get when I talk about these things is people saying, Oh, I thought it was just me.
38:18
SPEAKER_03: I thought I was the broken one.
38:20
SPEAKER_03: And when we can understand that these are things that have been well documented.
38:24
SPEAKER_03: And even for leaders, right?
38:25
SPEAKER_03: Knowing that imposter syndrome and masking and loneliness are common, very common, and almost to be expected, then oh, I'm not broken for having had those feelings.
38:36
SPEAKER_03: And now I know I can do something about it.
38:38
SPEAKER_03: So in my mind, yes, we're talking about relatively uh dark topics, but they've been here.
38:45
SPEAKER_03: It's just about how are we going to address it in a way that's more healthy?
38:48
SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm pretty excited about what's happening with that globally myself.
38:52
SPEAKER_04: Wonderful.
38:53
SPEAKER_04: And that actually leads me directly to this beautiful segue into my last question, which is um, as you've mentioned, um that right from the start, right?
39:03
SPEAKER_04: There are countries that are doing this really well.
39:06
SPEAKER_04: There are companies that are doing this really well here in uh in the United States already.
39:11
SPEAKER_04: So it's not all, you know, it's not everything here is terrible in the uh in the United States either.
39:16
SPEAKER_04: Um so what I'd love to hear is uh this is almost like a two-part question.
39:21
SPEAKER_04: So the first part to the question is I'd love to hear a fairly succinct example of what a of what great looks like today.
39:31
SPEAKER_04: And then the second aspect of this, if we just fast forward even 10 years, let's say to to 2034, um, so I'll be pretty much retired by then, hopefully, if everything's if everything's on track.
39:44
SPEAKER_04: But if I but if I were looking at those companies, what would I what would be different about the average company in the United States as a result of the work that we're doing here?
39:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
39:57
SPEAKER_03: So I think the thing that I have seen being most successful is to start by understanding what the hazards are within your specific workplace and industry.
40:07
SPEAKER_03: So doing the assessment, which is relatively easy lift, um, there's you know 12 psychosocial hazards we have can identify and um you can you can measure those pretty clearly, and then putting mitigations in place so that we're monitoring them.
40:23
SPEAKER_03: So that's number one.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: Number two is we've equipped leaders with the skills so that they can both make sure that they stay healthy and that they can uh create and uh emulate uh certain behaviors that create resiliency and the ability to navigate challenges because change is not slowing down.
40:42
SPEAKER_03: It's it's not slowing down.
40:44
SPEAKER_03: Um, and that we also equip our teams with those skills as well.
40:47
SPEAKER_03: Um and and then, of course, we have support mechanisms where needed uh for people who are in crisis or not well.
40:55
SPEAKER_03: Um so that that that's the framework that the World Health Organization rolled out.
41:01
SPEAKER_03: Uh it works, uh, and and every organization that we've we've partnered with, they've all had insights on, believe it or not, relatively easy things that they can change that make work better.
41:12
SPEAKER_03: Um, as a result of that, they have deeper conversations, more actually more conflict, uh, because it's healthy conflict, more disagreement, more discussion, um, more iteration, ability to be agile.
41:26
SPEAKER_03: And so, what does that look like in the future?
41:28
SPEAKER_03: I think we have more innovative and more highly productive organizations where people can just do their best work and um we can keep up with the technology.
41:38
SPEAKER_03: Uh, because here's the thing we are not going to out-machine AI, but we can outhuman it.
41:44
SPEAKER_03: And so that's the part that we have to embrace is the part that makes us unique and special.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately for us, uh, that's the softer side.
41:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a wonderful point in which to leave it.
41:56
SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much, Al.
41:58
SPEAKER_04: Just a reminder for everybody that Al and I will be going into some of these topics that we've discussed here in a bit more detail.
42:03
SPEAKER_04: I think we're probably going to go into the leadership aspect of this in a bit more detail as well on our May 22nd discussion at 12 p.m.
42:10
SPEAKER_04: Eastern.
42:10
SPEAKER_04: That's May 22nd at 12 p.m.
42:12
SPEAKER_04: Eastern 2024.
42:14
SPEAKER_04: Um reminder again that that will be a live event.
42:17
SPEAKER_04: So if you want to register for that, just email us at info at humanityworking.net.
42:22
SPEAKER_04: That's info at humanityworking.net.
42:25
SPEAKER_04: And if you've got any questions you'd like us to address, then use that same email address as well.
42:30
SPEAKER_04: Look forward to that discussion, and thank you again so much for your time today.
42:34
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me, Paul.
42:35
SPEAKER_03: I appreciate it.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: Music is by Dolo Records.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: If you like this podcast, please subscribe, like, and recommend us to others.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more people.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.